| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:10 |
fluxionary_ |
huh, apparently there's a "none" item type lurking in the undocumented parts of the lua API |
| 00:11 |
fluxionary_ |
("used for the hand and unknown items") |
| 00:18 |
fluxionary_ |
cheapie: that elevator is incredible :) |
| 00:45 |
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| 01:11 |
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| 01:16 |
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| 02:15 |
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| 02:32 |
cheapie |
Oblomov: Here's a video of riding them up (and back down), with the server settings changed a bit to make that more reliable: https://cheapiesystems.com/media/movestone-elevator-up.webm |
| 02:33 |
cheapie |
It's still not perfect, but a faster dedicated_server_step does bring multiplayer usage from "works sometimes" to "works most of the time" on the way up. |
| 02:36 |
cheapie |
lmisu and fluxionary_ might find that ^ interesting too |
| 02:37 |
fluxionary_ |
what if you create some sort of entity that the player is attached to, that is moved by the movestone system? |
| 02:39 |
cheapie |
I could, but with the settings changed it's generally "good enough", and at some point there you're probably going to end up finding yourself making an elevator mod instead of just /building/ an elevator. |
| 02:39 |
cheapie |
At the moment the only elevator-specific mod there is the one providing the call buttons and PI/lantern combo things, which is also the one adding the motor and chime sounds for the digilines noteblocks. |
| 02:39 |
fluxionary_ |
cheapie, good point, there is a decent elevator mod that didn't teleport people, last time i checked |
| 02:40 |
cheapie |
There are a few that work, haven't seen any that I would call "realistic" though. |
| 02:40 |
fluxionary_ |
the one i saw previously was realtime_elevators |
| 02:41 |
fluxionary_ |
i was fairly impressed w/ it at the time, but that was a while back |
| 02:41 |
cheapie |
The shacknet one is the least-bad I've seen so far - the movement is okay but everything else about it seems to be to "just barely enough to make it work in the game" levels. |
| 02:42 |
cheapie |
Like IIRC it just sorta.... exists on all floors at the same time, and then once you actually get in then it stops existing on the other floors until it arrives again. |
| 02:43 |
fluxionary_ |
a finnish player named iska made a pretty interesting mesecons-only elevator on blocky survival, and Test_User made a mesecons/digilines contraption that could be controlled to move arbitrarily horizontally |
| 02:43 |
cheapie |
I have a relay logic implementation of a 3-floor one of these with working doors and everything, but of course not the special modes. |
| 02:43 |
fluxionary_ |
Test_User's contraption made use of a bench (or something?) to keep the player bound to the machine |
| 02:45 |
cheapie |
Piston sounds were changed to relay sounds for this one, but otherwise just plain mesecons stuff: https://cheapiesystems.com/media/mtrelaylogic.webm |
| 02:46 |
cheapie |
That one was built on (and still exists on) a public server, but one that has the step interval turned down far enough for this sort of thing to usually work. |
| 02:47 |
cheapie |
There are a few of the Luacontroller-driven ones in service there too (maxevents was raised on that server), with the biggest installation currently being a group of 4 elevators serving 9 floors. |
| 02:47 |
fluxionary_ |
as someone who likes logic puzzles and has built some nontrivial mesecons machines, i love seeing people make such well-finished designs. bravo :) |
| 02:48 |
DeepThgt |
nice |
| 02:48 |
cheapie |
I'm also the one who built this back in 2015, if you like pure mesecons stuff: https://cheapiesystems.com/media/images/tictactoe-mesecons.png |
| 02:48 |
DeepThgt |
fanciest machine ive made is either the auto pine tree harvester or the automatic fireworkz maker/launcher |
| 02:50 |
DeepThgt |
cheapie, that elevator is just impressive\ |
| 02:52 |
cheapie |
This is the Luacontroller program for the elevators (currently configured for the parking elevators in the video): https://gist.github.com/cheapie/30ac989d0b6dcef0f76f4bb06fa223e2 |
| 02:53 |
cheapie |
...I really should do a demo video of the car wash sometime, the one with the whole graphical wash program editor and its own sorta-scripting-language. |
| 02:53 |
DeepThgt |
oooh ty, im learning lua and example code helps |
| 02:53 |
fluxionary_ |
certainly one of the most complicated luacontroller programs i've ever seen. |
| 02:54 |
cheapie |
I think my record for longest LuaC program was one of my older traffic light controllers at 1677 lines. |
| 02:55 |
fluxionary_ |
a player named Andrew built a general storage request system w/ digilines on your-land, unfortunately lag made it unreliable |
| 02:55 |
fluxionary_ |
but it had over 1000 lines if i remember right |
| 02:55 |
cheapie |
The LTC-4000E's firmware (it emulates a Luacontroller internally despite not being one) is a bit shorter at 1190 lines. |
| 02:56 |
fluxionary_ |
what's an LTC-4000E? some other mod? |
| 02:56 |
cheapie |
Yes, it's my current (I mean, it's 5 years old now, but I haven't made anything newer) traffic signal controller. |
| 02:58 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> https://content.minetest.net/packages/cheapie/ltc4000e/ |
| 02:58 |
muurkha |
cheapie: that tictactoe game is pretty amazing |
| 02:58 |
cheapie |
I don't have a good demo video of the LTC-4000E, but this test intersection is controlled by one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BqRvMltiL0 |
| 02:58 |
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| 02:59 |
cheapie |
I do have one for the old LTC-4000, the E isn't much different aside from no longer using a LuaC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-tOfCZrrVk |
| 03:00 |
fluxionary_ |
hm, i can't find that machine anymore, but there's another machine that just does auto-farming w/ 612 lines |
| 03:00 |
fluxionary_ |
(that Andrew built) |
| 03:01 |
fluxionary_ |
"factory floor 0.4.7.8.1" |
| 03:01 |
fluxionary_ |
"Manages a Minetest furnace + pipeworks autocrafter in order to make anything" |
| 03:01 |
cheapie |
More Luacontroller shenanigans (microphone sucks, turn your volume up) in singleplayer using some extra mods: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf_ZC346lEM |
| 03:02 |
cheapie |
Since it might not be real obvious what's going on there - that uses a mod that connects digilines to arbitrary SCSI (or SAS, or ATAPI, or USB mass storage, or...) devices and allows a Luacontroller to control them. It's reading status information from that CD drive and sending it commands to play the CD through its headphone jack. |
| 03:03 |
fluxionary_ |
on blocky survival, there was someone who ported libaa to minetest and used those marquees to play a video file (i think it was one of the star-wars prequels). it lagged the server so bad that the mod got removed. |
| 03:04 |
fluxionary_ |
letting minetest actually control hardware is black magic IMO, i wish you luck =D |
| 03:05 |
cheapie |
Works with hard drives too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeiJxJPCn2U |
| 03:05 |
fluxionary_ |
reminds me of the thing "every time someone connects to this server w/ javascript disabled, a frog dies. it's automatic, the frogs are wired up to the server" |
| 03:06 |
cheapie |
Also speaking of lag: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4cP_VujDWA |
| 03:07 |
fluxionary_ |
cheapie: oh, that one makes me smile =D |
| 03:07 |
cheapie |
The real-life version is a bit faster. Just a bit. https://cheapiesystems.com/media/VID_20210204_120951887.webm |
| 03:08 |
fluxionary_ |
i'm guessing none of this works well w/ mesecons_debug |
| 03:08 |
cheapie |
I'm not even familiar with what mesecons_debug is. |
| 03:09 |
fluxionary_ |
something that buckaroo made to keep mesecons from lagging out servers, that i poked at, but i'm not very happy w/ the state of it still |
| 03:11 |
cheapie |
The server that I generally play on (haven't actually played on one in a while now, but...) generally prefers a different method - where slight amounts of lag when you're using a machine is acceptable, but the machine is required to stop when nobody is nearby. (often a blinky plant is used to sense that, they stop when unloaded) |
| 03:11 |
fluxionary_ |
basically, it throttles mesecons, but the basic mechanism (1) could be made to throttle *everything* (2) doesn't really throttle mesecons too effectively (it's triggered by lag, not by how much mesecons itself contributes to lag) |
| 03:12 |
fluxionary_ |
cheapie, almost all mechanisms are disabled when players aren't around the machines, automatically |
| 03:13 |
fluxionary_ |
that's a basic game mechanic, right? |
| 03:13 |
cheapie |
Unless something changed recently, Luacontroller interrupts don't stop when unloaded unless they're in lightweight mode, and pipeworks tubed items never stop. |
| 03:13 |
fluxionary_ |
the mapblocks aren't loaded |
| 03:13 |
cheapie |
Both of them will even (briefly) load mapblocks as needed in order to continue running. |
| 03:14 |
fluxionary_ |
pipeworks... i've got a whole other criticism of that, other than basic automation mods |
| 03:15 |
cheapie |
I'm not really here to try to sell you on pipeworks or whatever, just... that server does have it installed, and that's how it works or at least did at the time (I don't think it's changed since). |
| 03:15 |
fluxionary_ |
wait, luacontroller interrupts keep going when something is unloaded? i don't know how i'd have missed that, the only way they could do that is by forceloading? |
| 03:16 |
cheapie |
In non-lightweight mode they use the mesecons ActionQueue, which is a server-wide list held outside of the mapblock(s) involved. |
| 03:16 |
fluxionary_ |
no need to sell me on pipeworks, but it's everywhere =D i prefer tubelib, though neither mod is a perfect replacement for the other |
| 03:16 |
fluxionary_ |
hm |
| 03:16 |
cheapie |
This does make spotting loops easy at least, you can just stand far away from machines and see what's in mesecons.queue.actions. |
| 03:17 |
fluxionary_ |
i need to read mesecons more carefully, i'm not sure i've delved into that too far |
| 03:18 |
fluxionary_ |
i've certainly gotten into the details, but it sounds like i'm missing some |
| 03:18 |
cheapie |
On that server, it is (or at least was? I did most of the work when I was there, dunno if someone else does now) policed heavily enough that even just leaving a single LuaC running with nothing but "interrupt(10,"blah")" in it would result in the thing being red-tagged and shut down within a few days. |
| 03:18 |
cheapie |
Like it can do whatever when you're logged in and near it (or someone else is near it) and/or it's being used to do things, but it *must* stop within a reasonable time when not. |
| 03:19 |
fluxionary_ |
cheapie: was this not just cuz random other players would come into your area and load your machines? |
| 03:19 |
cheapie |
It was considered acceptable for the machine to be running if some random other player was there, it just had to stop when there were no players near it. |
| 03:20 |
cheapie |
For things that needed accurate timing, the usual method was just to use interrupts like normal, but for the machine to stop if it detected an attached blinky plant hadn't blinked in 10-ish seconds. |
| 03:20 |
fluxionary_ |
ah, on the server i play on recreationally these day, you've either got to use a special device that disables your machines when you're offline, or set up your machine so that admins can disable it when you're not around |
| 03:20 |
fluxionary_ |
(the server is your-land) |
| 03:21 |
cheapie |
A switch is considered acceptable too provided that you remember to turn it off before leaving. |
| 03:21 |
cheapie |
(so is a player detector, or whatever - the rules just say that it has to stop, and don't enforce a specific method) |
| 03:21 |
fluxionary_ |
this is not an automation-heavy server though, if things break, it's up to the machine owners to fix it |
| 03:22 |
cheapie |
This is an automation-heavy server (VE-Creative) |
| 03:22 |
fluxionary_ |
we've got a "log-in" detector; it emits a signal when a player is logged in, and not when they are not. |
| 03:22 |
fluxionary_ |
which scales to a "reasonable" number of alts w/out much trouble |
| 03:23 |
cheapie |
Part of why I wouldn't like the login detector is for things like those elevators - I'd like for people to be able to use them even when the person who built it isn't logged in. |
| 03:23 |
fluxionary_ |
cheapie, i agree, that's the sort of thing that should get special exception to work outside the normal system |
| 03:23 |
cheapie |
The way I wrote them, when all of the cars in the group are idle there's just no interrupts scheduled or anything at all - even if someone pushes all of the buttons, eventually it will finish serving all of the calls and become idle. |
| 03:23 |
fluxionary_ |
cheapie, it's just so impressive |
| 03:24 |
cheapie |
The car wash is similar there - it does use interrupts when washing, but after the wash finishes it just sits there idle. |
| 03:26 |
fluxionary_ |
i'm gonna get to bed now. cheapie, i've been impressed by your mods before, it's been a pleasure talking to you :) |
| 03:27 |
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| 13:06 |
kilbith |
man fuck this shit weather mod in MTG who messes with the shadows and you wonder why |
| 13:07 |
kilbith |
should be sent to orbit and never be seen again |
| 13:09 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> so true |
| 13:15 |
kilbith |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4jPYkgxVVM |
| 13:35 |
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| 13:36 |
Guest54 |
kilbith “i'm escaping to the one place that hasn't been corrupted by capitalism – space!” https://yewtu.be/watch?v=niZpcdp2v34 |
| 13:36 |
Guest54 |
(tim curry in his second-best role) |
| 13:37 |
Guest54 |
(tim curry's best role was obviously dr. frank-n-furter) |
| 13:38 |
Guest54 |
uh, does anyone have an idea why i sometimes get a weirdly corrupted elongated moon at daytime or sun at nighttime? |
| 13:38 |
Guest54 |
i'll try to find a screenshot |
| 13:41 |
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| 13:43 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner have you seen this, ever? https://mister-muffin.de/p/0r9_.png |
| 13:43 |
Guest54 |
it flickers and is hard to catch |
| 13:43 |
Guest54 |
i am torn between “blame the engine” and “blame mineclone2”, let's see if i can get it in mtg too |
| 13:44 |
potatoxel[m] |
;o blackholes |
| 13:49 |
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| 14:06 |
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| 14:21 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> haha, i was thinking blackholes.. is that a mod? 🙂 |
| 14:22 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but i am not sure if it is engine or mcl2? if it's unloaded and the speed is manifesting on it, it could be mcl2, but if it's continuously there, there could be something engine related |
| 14:29 |
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| 14:30 |
mazes_83 |
I'm trying to teach my son programming making simple mods |
| 14:30 |
mazes_83 |
now he asks me: "how do I gic commic ?" |
| 14:31 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner that is mineclone2 from git, not a mod |
| 14:31 |
Desour |
did he maybe mean "git commit"? |
| 14:32 |
muurkha |
yeah, using source control is often a significant hurdle for nascent hackers |
| 14:32 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner what do you mean speed is manifesting? |
| 14:34 |
Desour |
short version: make sure git is installed and configured (i.e. stuff in gitconfig is set), also make sure nano is installed and configured as git editor (or you'll cage your child in vim), open terminal, `git add .`, `git commit` (opens nano, you can type the commit msg) |
| 14:35 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner have you chosen a penance for the texture pack crimes that the mcl2 developers are planning to commit yet? |
| 14:35 |
Desour |
(and ctrl+x to close nano) |
| 14:35 |
Guest54 |
Desour :q! is the only thing i remember about vi/vim |
| 14:35 |
mazes_83 |
Desour: it was a joke, we are speaking French, he is only ten, and his pronouciation was not accurate. |
| 14:36 |
Desour |
oh, ok, so your're fine |
| 14:36 |
muurkha |
['ʒik ko'mik] |
| 14:36 |
mazes_83 |
but it was a combo: "geek comic" |
| 14:36 |
Guest54 |
mazes_83 kids can do amazing things, i wish you great success! |
| 14:36 |
muurkha |
why didn't he pronounce it like "gi commi"? |
| 14:37 |
Guest54 |
yes, i learned about faux french that you always leave of the last letter and then the french ppl pretent do understand you! |
| 14:37 |
Guest54 |
i mean the last consonant |
| 14:37 |
Guest54 |
this one time in paris i asked for directions to “gar du nor” and it worked |
| 14:38 |
mazes_83 |
I chose a dns via afraid.org -> jumpingcrab.com. So we made a mod with jumping crabs, not really useful or to get out of home but I'm very satisfied by his work |
| 14:39 |
Guest54 |
the person helping me get to gare du nord turned out to be an ex-soldier who was stationed in germany when younger and he proceeded to tell me all about how to him german tradition of architecture is superior |
| 14:40 |
Guest54 |
i figure he had no love for le corbusier hehe |
| 14:41 |
mazes_83 |
but we are from south, and we pronounce full words, with special accents for the end. people from paris seem eating their words |
| 14:41 |
Guest54 |
“eating their words” made me smile hehe |
| 14:42 |
Guest54 |
btw, does anyone know how the architectural style is called where new buildings look like they were designed in minetest? |
| 14:43 |
Guest54 |
like, lots of regular windows, very cubic |
| 14:44 |
muurkha |
brutalist? modernist? |
| 14:44 |
muurkha |
mazes_83: oh! I see |
| 14:45 |
Guest54 |
it's not really brutalism |
| 14:45 |
Desour |
1m thick windows? |
| 14:45 |
muurkha |
my stepmother told me about a provençal guy she used to work with who pronounced things that way. his favorite saying was "c'est con, ça", and he pronounced "con" as [koŋ], like English "Kong" |
| 14:45 |
Desour |
nice isolation if that are all layers |
| 14:46 |
muurkha |
(meaning "that's stupid") |
| 14:46 |
Guest54 |
muurkha consider the following https://www.photocase.com/photos/3990494-reflecting-blue-windows-in-grey-concrete-of-a-modern-office-building-in-summer-sunshine-in-the-city-of-frankfurt-am-main-in-hesse-germany-photocase-stock-photo-large.jpeg |
| 14:47 |
Guest54 |
muurkha high windows, flat facade etc. |
| 14:47 |
Guest54 |
Desour you got me with the 1m thick windows hahahaha |
| 14:47 |
Guest54 |
Desour minetest bunker architecture software hehe |
| 14:48 |
Guest54 |
mazes_83 did you teach testing too? |
| 14:49 |
Guest54 |
Desour regarding the waterlogging, any solution i can find that “fits in head” and is not purely visual restricts the waterlogging to one type of fluid :( |
| 14:50 |
Guest54 |
visual waterlogging is easy: just steal the water rendering from adjacent nodes and fix the rendering (so you don't get a dent in the water) |
| 14:50 |
Guest54 |
and maybe that is a good first step |
| 14:51 |
Guest54 |
for things like undersea rails or undersee nodeboxes |
| 14:51 |
Desour |
I think waterlogging that doesn't flow through nodes would, aka visual waterlogging, would suffice for many situations |
| 14:51 |
Guest54 |
as i said |
| 14:51 |
Guest54 |
we agree violently it seems |
| 14:51 |
Desour |
you just typed faster |
| 14:51 |
muurkha |
what's the best way to practice typing faster? |
| 14:52 |
muurkha |
other than arguing on IRC I mean |
| 14:52 |
Desour |
I'm just a little afraid of what happens with the simple waterlogging node type when more complex waterlogging is implemented |
| 14:53 |
Guest54 |
uh, nothing? |
| 14:53 |
Desour |
hm, but it's probably fine to keep it then |
| 14:53 |
Guest54 |
more complex waterlogging is at least a slight overhaul of the water reflow algorithm, adding at least 1 more state |
| 14:54 |
Guest54 |
i.e. a waterlogged node that never turns into a source, flow or air, but interacts as if it were flow (or source, if you want to be funny about it) |
| 14:55 |
Guest54 |
that is actually easy to implement – but it is clear to me that it will only ever work for a single type of fluid if the complexity should be limited |
| 14:56 |
Guest54 |
so i would suggest to add visual waterlogging and think *very hard* about a general solution |
| 14:57 |
Desour |
supporting more than one liquid requires mapping to the liquid content_t in some way, as already discussed |
| 14:57 |
Guest54 |
muurkha ktouch helped me a lot. also choosing a layout that is optimized for bigrams and trigrams in your most-used language (i use neo2 layout) |
| 14:58 |
Guest54 |
Desour i don't get the sparse mapping thing. like, where are you going to save that anyway? |
| 14:59 |
Desour |
btw. is there a better name than "waterlogging" for this feature? maybe "liquidlogging"? |
| 15:00 |
Desour |
Guest54: the sparse mapping would just be stored in the map, i.e. as part of a mapblock |
| 15:00 |
Guest54 |
“optionally_submerged” (so some clueless person can later change it to always be submerged trollface.jpg) |
| 15:00 |
Desour |
ah, and optionally_submerged_optional for a version with client setting >:) |
| 15:01 |
Guest54 |
server owners will cry for CSM so they can set that setting on the client |
| 15:01 |
Guest54 |
the saga continues |
| 15:01 |
muurkha |
Guest54: I'll give ktouch a try, thanks! |
| 15:01 |
Guest54 |
previously on “bool gender; float money; uint8_t employees;” … |
| 15:01 |
Desour |
submergable maybe? |
| 15:01 |
muurkha |
haha |
| 15:02 |
Guest54 |
you laugh, but an ex-employee of a german bank told me they actually did float money or at least something similar, explanation was “typescript in a backend” hehehe |
| 15:03 |
muurkha |
many people do |
| 15:03 |
Desour |
if you have enough float money, you can produce more |
| 15:04 |
Guest54 |
as soon as the selbstbestimmungsgesetz comes i will try to change part of my name to be unrepresentable in the basic multilingual plane, that will teach the state to use appropriate datatypes! |
| 15:04 |
Guest54 |
oh i have another funny |
| 15:04 |
Guest54 |
so my PIN for the bank card is 5 digits |
| 15:05 |
potatoxel[m] |
noted |
| 15:05 |
Guest54 |
and some payment processing terminals choke on that … by rejecting the transaction. |
| 15:05 |
Guest54 |
the worst terminal once locked my card |
| 15:06 |
Guest54 |
hmm, minetest sometimes just segfaults at startup |
| 15:06 |
Guest54 |
i wonder why |
| 15:06 |
Guest54 |
how to debug |
| 15:06 |
Desour |
start with gdb |
| 15:07 |
Guest54 |
oh i remember that program |
| 15:07 |
Desour |
if it dumped the core, you can debug that session with coredumctl if on systemd |
| 15:07 |
Guest54 |
no coredump sorry |
| 15:07 |
Guest54 |
let's hope it crashes using gdb |
| 15:08 |
Desour |
(Speicherabzug geschrieben, not Kern ausgestoßen, in german) |
| 15:08 |
Guest54 |
rubenwardy btw before you put image files inside items that are displayed on the client i suggest you make sure that they are properly validated. |
| 15:09 |
Guest54 |
rubenwardy otherwise you get “book banning” again, but not with overlong item meta but with items containing corrupted images |
| 15:09 |
Guest54 |
i.e. you throw a player an item, their client crashes |
| 15:09 |
rubenwardy |
I'm not going to be doing that, they'll use the standard texture strings ie: file names |
| 15:09 |
Desour |
which book mod allows setting images? |
| 15:11 |
Guest54 |
rubenwardy well [png exists, so … |
| 15:11 |
Guest54 |
let's hope it does not go crashy |
| 15:13 |
Guest54 |
Desour “bookbanning” is just throwing books with overlong meta on players in minecraft and making them crash their client. in minetest this is not easily possible, since it does lead to noticeable server crashes. |
| 15:13 |
Guest54 |
which usually means the server fixes that possibility |
| 15:13 |
Guest54 |
some enterprising anarchy server player tried to convince the minetest devs to *not* crash the server some time back, but were not successful |
| 15:13 |
Guest54 |
(the goal is to not crash the server so you can crash clients without the server noticing) |
| 15:15 |
Guest54 |
the stupidity is ofc that server owners like to blame crashes on “malicious users”, usually it's not like that |
| 15:16 |
Guest54 |
if they log in and it crashes most of the time it is something wrong with a mod and it needs to be fixed |
| 15:18 |
Elouin |
A friend of mine just tried to register on mesehub, but didn't get an email. |
| 15:19 |
Guest54 |
Desour great i can not get it to crash under gdb lol |
| 15:19 |
Guest54 |
damn heisenbug |
| 15:19 |
Desour |
I can only recommend to enable coredump saving, it's really useful |
| 15:20 |
Guest54 |
how do i |
| 15:20 |
Guest54 |
is this a sysctl thing |
| 15:21 |
muurkha |
I think you can use /proc |
| 15:21 |
Desour |
I only know for arch: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Core_dump?useskin=vector |
| 15:22 |
muurkha |
it's Linux, so the Arch answer applies generally |
| 15:22 |
Desour |
no, it's still systemd specific |
| 15:22 |
Guest54 |
lol |
| 15:22 |
Desour |
(and the distro may have different defaults) |
| 15:22 |
muurkha |
oh, sorry |
| 15:23 |
Desour |
(but otherwise yes :)) |
| 15:24 |
Guest54 |
btw, who of you is velartrill, if any? |
| 15:26 |
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| 15:28 |
muurkha |
oh dear, is velartrill playing minetest now? |
| 15:29 |
Guest54 |
didn't she add some portal stuff |
| 15:29 |
Guest54 |
particle |
| 15:29 |
Guest54 |
i mean |
| 15:29 |
Guest54 |
also i think she made a sorcery mod |
| 15:30 |
Guest54 |
muurkha i recently came upon velartrills nkvd.c and was shocked and appalled, you had similar experiences? :D |
| 15:31 |
Guest54 |
yes here https://c.hale.su/ → sorcery [lua] a Minetest mod that adds a magic system and supporting functionality. |
| 15:33 |
muurkha |
I met her on Twitter, therefore it was a bad experience |
| 15:33 |
Guest54 |
and here is the horrible, horrible program that i mentioned (content warning: undefined behaviour, “XDG_CONFIG_HOME specifies the redirection target […] but can be overridden with nkvd_gulag”) https://c.hale.su/util/file?name=nkvd.c&ci=tip |
| 15:34 |
Guest54 |
the part that i am interested is is this: |
| 15:34 |
potatoxel[m] |
what is da license? |
| 15:34 |
Guest54 |
> only works when built without optimizations. it's probably that wrecker Trotsky's fault. i'm working on it. |
| 15:34 |
Guest54 |
anyone has an idea like what part of the program is undefined |
| 15:34 |
Guest54 |
? |
| 15:36 |
Guest54 |
muurkha did you get the impression vt is unironically a tankie or is it more like “LoL i TrOlL u” cosplaying? |
| 15:37 |
Guest54 |
potatoxel[m] it says “© AGPLv3” |
| 15:37 |
potatoxel[m] |
wheere |
| 15:37 |
potatoxel[m] |
lol |
| 15:37 |
Guest54 |
potatoxel[m] for the sorcery mod i suggest to read the contribution guidelines, they are … special |
| 15:37 |
Guest54 |
https://c.hale.su/sorcery/wiki?name=contributing |
| 15:38 |
Guest54 |
> all developers and contributors are expected to be familiar with the Hymn of the Sightless Worms, which should be recited twice (except during full moons) whenever creating new tickets or committing new code. we also require that you avert your eyes during solar eclipses, and carry always on your person a small jade token carved in the shape of a |
| 15:38 |
Guest54 |
scarab, for obvious reasons. |
| 15:38 |
Guest54 |
> proper coding attire consists of a velvet summoning cloak, an amulet of dark and terrible power strung about your neck on a leather cord fashioned from the hide of a dire elk slain with a scimitar carved from bone on a midsummer evening high in the cold mountains many leagues from the nearest human settlement […] |
| 15:38 |
potatoxel[m] |
lol |
| 15:39 |
potatoxel[m] |
but where is the copyrght @AGLP? |
| 15:39 |
Guest54 |
sourcing the technical interview |
| 15:40 |
Guest54 |
it is as mother said: “Vidrun, fierce and clever, may our clan’s wisdom be yours: Never read Hacker Ne^H^H^H stalinist propaganda” |
| 15:40 |
potatoxel[m] |
waa |
| 15:40 |
Guest54 |
potatoxel[m] in case you did not know https://aphyr.com/posts/341-hexing-the-technical-interview |
| 15:41 |
potatoxel[m] |
Where does it say AGPLv3 |
| 15:41 |
Guest54 |
this is a literary genre of the 2010s, anti-naturalist mystical coding interview questions |
| 15:42 |
Guest54 |
potatoxel[m] are you referring to the sorcery mod or what |
| 15:43 |
potatoxel[m] |
yes to the sorcery mod |
| 15:43 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> btw, Guest54, the more you bash us for the texture issue, the more inclined I am to ignore you. Raising concerns and options is useful, bashing decisions, well, it just gets people's backs up. Up to you, of course, but it's becoming continuous, and there is a difference between raising an issue, and consistently bashing something... |
| 15:44 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner i was not trying to harass you or make fun of you. i wanted to know which of the several solutions you have chosen. maybe i was of jokings too much. |
| 15:45 |
potatoxel[m] |
cant see any license on the sorcery mod so eh |
| 15:45 |
potatoxel[m] |
3: |
| 15:45 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> the developer who was embarking on that isn't involved in the project right now. so it's parked. i am thinking about it |
| 15:45 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i am not ruling it out now, but i'm thinking about it and have other priorities |
| 15:46 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner uh, that's a pattern that previous maintainers had as well, someone partially ruining things with good intentions and then getting it merged half-finished and then going away. i have no idea how to solve this without telling people they are supposed to fix everything they break before stuff get merged … but stuff is already merged, |
| 15:46 |
Guest54 |
so … good luck, i guess? |
| 15:47 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i personally don't dive into things without thinking things through, and any new information that comes to light, i will digest |
| 15:47 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i ain't going to move on something i haven't made a decision on yet |
| 15:47 |
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| 15:47 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but if someone did rename some, i probably wouldn't block it |
| 15:47 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but not many people are lining up for it, as it ain't fun |
| 15:48 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> if i've merged it, and they go, i own it |
| 15:48 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it's now part of legacy codebase |
| 15:48 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> most devs we have will rework stuff and take feedback on board |
| 15:49 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> the people still involved, i have a lot of respect for, and i don't like bashing mistakes |
| 15:49 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> we all make them |
| 15:49 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i've made a few when learning, and had to fix them |
| 15:49 |
Guest54 |
uh, not everyone is making mistakes on the same level. what separates the master from the novice? 10000 errors. |
| 15:50 |
Guest54 |
some people think they are the master though, but they made the same error 10000 times |
| 15:50 |
Guest54 |
surely you have interacted with such devs (everyone has) |
| 15:50 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> if i see repeated mistakes and a lack of learning, i'd be a bit more firm |
| 15:50 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> if i think it's a behavioural rather than skill issue. |
| 15:50 |
Guest54 |
good! |
| 15:51 |
Guest54 |
IMO the “skill issue” is usually going for the first thing that “makes sense” |
| 15:51 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but we are only as good as our collective knowledge, and we can only catch stuff we know about |
| 15:51 |
Guest54 |
i.e. many software developers or ticket writers seem to not intuitively do secord-order thinking |
| 15:51 |
Guest54 |
second-order |
| 15:51 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> even with newer devs, i have suggested improvements if i spot an issue, migration or performance wise |
| 15:52 |
Guest54 |
well in this case you'll have less problems if you choose on the rename thing before doing a new release |
| 15:52 |
Guest54 |
since the last release still worked well |
| 15:52 |
Guest54 |
i mean you can just replicate the mod names in the texture folder |
| 15:53 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner in case you were not around that far back, the mob problem was also a partial rewrite followed by “bye” from the contributor (who shall remain unnamed for now) |
| 15:53 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i will be clear. i'm not renaming things back. i am thinking of mitigations |
| 15:53 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i'm aware of the mob rewrite and the characters |
| 15:54 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> what is done is done |
| 15:54 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> there was also a tendency to want a new api, and think it'll magically solve every problem |
| 15:54 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> (and it won't) |
| 15:54 |
Guest54 |
oh yes lol |
| 15:54 |
Guest54 |
or to put everything in globalstep! |
| 15:54 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> because behaviour requires logic, and i ain't seen much that mobs-redo api can limit us by |
| 15:54 |
Guest54 |
“let's make a globalstep API” used to be a joke on clamity |
| 15:54 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> obviously, we may need to enrich with new attributes |
| 15:55 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> don't get me started on globalstep and searching for nodes/objects. it's virtually the cause of every performance ticket i've worked on |
| 15:55 |
Guest54 |
haha |
| 15:56 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i've actually made an api (oh gosh, kill me, it's a meme), to ensure that globalsteps can be limited to not every run |
| 15:56 |
Guest54 |
remind me again, why is ”renaming files back” not on the menu? after all, it makes everything work again 100%. and the renamed files could be in textures/mcl_whatever as that would solve the “some people can not find all the textures” problem. |
| 15:56 |
Guest54 |
hahahaha |
| 15:56 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> now a 1 line can prevent overuse and hammering |
| 15:56 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> long term, i still feel renaming is the correct thing |
| 15:57 |
Guest54 |
i didn't say it was not, i said a half-assed solution is worse than doing nothing |
| 15:57 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i don't want to break mods, of course, but i'm wondering whether we provide an alternative image temporarily, or provide a supported mod until it's supported by mod authors |
| 15:57 |
Guest54 |
lol |
| 15:58 |
Guest54 |
regarding renaming, with the color item renames there exists a 100% correct upgrade strategy that requires no recipes and results in names that match, without any item turning into another. |
| 15:58 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i'm thinking of duplicating a handful of textures if needs be, and i absolutely hate it |
| 15:58 |
Guest54 |
i suggested it and it was not chosen |
| 15:59 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> colour updates for dye is been and done |
| 15:59 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it has been release already |
| 15:59 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> there is a mitigation in that users can convert their dyes back to materials |
| 15:59 |
Guest54 |
i was just providing an example to point out i am not against renaming stuff, i am against doing ”the first thing that makes sense” and then doing that badly |
| 16:00 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and i would keep that minimum 6 months if i can |
| 16:01 |
Guest54 |
my way would simply be to rename mcl_dye into mcl_dyes and then aliasing every old color. less code, no mitigation recipes necessary. |
| 16:01 |
Guest54 |
and no way to get lapis from blue plants lol |
| 16:01 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> to do the correct thing, you have to know the options and what is the pro's and cons. it is an experience issue, and something learnt over time. it is about sharing that knowledge |
| 16:02 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i turned off dye from blue plants for now |
| 16:02 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> to keep the mitigation longers |
| 16:02 |
Guest54 |
yes, although almost every time i shared my knowledge to the mcl2 team in 2021 and 2022 i was laughed away, so … |
| 16:02 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> (well, i didn't, prairie did on my request) |
| 16:02 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i cannot talk about the past, and i am not those people |
| 16:03 |
Guest54 |
nah, history does not repeat |
| 16:03 |
Guest54 |
it rhymes |
| 16:03 |
MTDiscord |
<PrairieWind> what did I do? |
| 16:03 |
MTDiscord |
<PrairieWind> please tell me I am not in trouble again |
| 16:03 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> the recipe for blue flowers/dye turn off temporarily |
| 16:03 |
MTDiscord |
<PrairieWind> ah |
| 16:03 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> you haven't been in trouble..? |
| 16:03 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i didn't want to take credit for your pr, and your work |
| 16:04 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but i can assure you, i have messed up, and will mess up again, as i am human. any shared knowledge that can help to minimise that is always welcome |
| 16:05 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and i do enjoy discussing things with you. you have good knowledge and a lot of experience |
| 16:06 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner i guess PrairieWind is referring to “PrairieWind made a PR that changed how optionally framed glasslikes are rendered and did not know that a) it turns obby glass in mtg invisible b) it does not work well with many texture packs, turning glass invisible or making weird borders c) framed glass rendering can never work the way it is |
| 16:06 |
Guest54 |
unless your texture pack is 16×16 (just try it out with handpainted 512×512 textures and tell me how it looks lol)” |
| 16:06 |
Guest54 |
as i said before, the mistake is not something that can be attributed to one person |
| 16:07 |
Guest54 |
like a bunch of swiss cheese slices, it takes every hole to line up so that such stuff gets approved (in particular, i think no one read the 3 or 4 previous issues on the topic that clearly spelled out stuff like the problems of non-16×16-textures for glasslikes) |
| 16:33 |
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| 17:40 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner btw, why are things like the mapping table not marked as WIP? i mean there is a whole mod for it |
| 17:41 |
Guest54 |
i mean to shut up the people who are like “uh, job site block X does not work” |
| 17:41 |
Guest54 |
if it clearly says it in the interface, maybe they just accept it |
| 17:41 |
Guest54 |
i mean, it worked for other things |
| 17:59 |
Krock |
!cat |
| 17:59 |
MinetestBot |
http://i.imgur.com/BY5ehYX.jpg |
| 18:00 |
Desour |
:O |
| 18:00 |
Desour |
!cat |
| 18:00 |
MinetestBot |
http://i.imgur.com/iATkdQO.jpg |
| 18:00 |
Guest54 |
what |
| 18:00 |
Guest54 |
!help |
| 18:00 |
MinetestBot |
https://github.com/sfan5/minetestbot-modules/blob/master/COMMANDS.md |
| 18:00 |
Desour |
!cat |
| 18:00 |
MinetestBot |
http://i.imgur.com/qjzMvkJ.jpg |
| 18:01 |
Desour |
!cat |
| 18:01 |
MinetestBot |
http://i.imgur.com/c6nvxLE.jpg |
| 18:01 |
|
Desour was kicked by ShadowBot: Message repetition flood detected. |
| 18:01 |
Guest54 |
the cat thing is not in the docs |
| 18:01 |
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| 18:02 |
Krock |
!doge |
| 18:02 |
MinetestBot |
http://i.imgur.com/NOIyL1K.jpg |
| 18:02 |
potatoxel[m] |
too much cats = kick |
| 18:02 |
potatoxel[m] |
:o |
| 18:02 |
potatoxel[m] |
but we need cats! |
| 18:07 |
Guest54 |
stop spamming pls |
| 18:08 |
Krock |
how about no |
| 18:13 |
Guest54 |
Krock you worked on the changelog, do you? |
| 18:14 |
rubenwardy |
!cat |
| 18:14 |
MinetestBot |
http://i.imgur.com/kA8l8oP.jpg |
| 18:14 |
rubenwardy |
I approve this message |
| 18:14 |
Krock |
Guest54: minetest, changelog, core dev stuff but not minetest bot |
| 18:15 |
Krock |
also my reply was solely meant to trigger you |
| 18:15 |
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| 18:17 |
Guest54 |
Krock i ask because if the default for the optionally framed glasslike is not changed back to ”render it without frames by default” before release, i would suggest to add something to the changelog for 5.7 … like “breaking change: glasslike textures now must have a minimum size of 16×16 and also provide special tiles for connected glass. |
| 18:17 |
Guest54 |
textures above 16×16 must be square and have an edge length that is a multiple of 16 and also have 1/16 of its border completely filled to prevent rendering errors with the connected framed glass” |
| 18:24 |
jonadab |
Are texture dimensions not required to be a power of two? |
| 18:24 |
Guest54 |
jonadab not that i know of. the smallest texture pack i know is 5×5 |
| 18:25 |
jonadab |
I would've expected 16x16, 32x32, 64x64, 128x128, ... |
| 18:25 |
rubenwardy |
It's not required but it is strongly recommended |
| 18:26 |
Guest54 |
something something android texture dimensions |
| 18:27 |
jonadab |
And these days, the smaller sizes like 16x16 don't really make sense for new texture packs, though keeping support for old ones is of course reasonable. |
| 18:27 |
potatoxel[m] |
WAH |
| 18:27 |
potatoxel[m] |
* wah* |
| 18:28 |
potatoxel[m] |
i like low res |
| 18:28 |
potatoxel[m] |
probably mostly nostalgia, but it gud c: |
| 18:29 |
jonadab |
potatoxel[m]: I can _sort_ of sympathize with that, as I also play text-based games (NetHack, Brogue, etc.) |
| 18:29 |
jonadab |
Though that's not entirely the same. Text is very easy to parse visually. |
| 18:38 |
Guest54 |
jonadab for stylistic reasons, smaller sizes do make sense |
| 18:48 |
Guest54 |
PrairieWind could you query me? |
| 18:49 |
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| 18:59 |
MinetestBot |
[git] SmallJoker -> minetest/minetest: Revert "Enable connected glass by default (#13242)" 1c1f1b1 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/1c1f1b161512fea8a04fade4db274fa11659bf68 (2023-04-02T18:56:31Z) |
| 19:08 |
Guest54 |
Desour you can close this probably, unless you want to special-case flowing water at several boundaries (i recently looked at the water flow code and you *probably* do not want to do that) https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/13378 |
| 19:13 |
Guest54 |
to be more explicit: flowing liquid adjacent to unloaded areas is … oh wait. this might be caused by something stupid regarding the mapgen limit, let me verify. |
| 19:14 |
Desour |
Guest54: I haven't looked into how hard it is to fix. it's definitely a bug that I can reproduce |
| 19:14 |
Guest54 |
Desour it's not a bug though, as long as the flow is immediately adjacent to an unloaded area, it can not flow away (a source might be in the unloaded area). |
| 19:15 |
Guest54 |
if nothing has changed, there is an entire shell of unloaded mapblocks around the visible map (and this shell is needed for various reasons) |
| 19:15 |
Desour |
the issue is that you can place a liquid source, remove it, and the flowing liquid stays |
| 19:16 |
Guest54 |
flowing liquid only stays if adjacent to an ignore block in this case, am i correct? |
| 19:16 |
Guest54 |
i'll debug something quickly hehe |
| 19:16 |
Desour |
maybe that shell then needs liquid updating, idk ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
| 19:17 |
Guest54 |
unclear. i'd strongly advice against changing it. |
| 19:18 |
Guest54 |
i used to experiment with infinite water at the map border |
| 19:18 |
Desour |
or call it a feature, as part of minetest lore |
| 19:19 |
Desour |
that would fix two bugs at once: there's a mtg issue that soil stays wet at map boundaries |
| 19:19 |
Guest54 |
well, the “bug” is definitely something that players expect (and in some cases, rely upon, i have seen someone do weird things on a test server regarding a liquid that was supposed to have a limited lifetime, or so) |
| 19:19 |
Guest54 |
the visible map boundary or the real one? |
| 19:20 |
Desour |
take a guess |
| 19:21 |
Desour |
if it was behind the boarder of all visible, it probably wouldn't have been reported |
| 19:21 |
Guest54 |
i once removed ignore blocks on a server to hide my stuff hehehe |
| 19:22 |
Guest54 |
there was also an entire ”invisible” rail line that only existed on the server (i.e. not in map downloads) on clamity |
| 19:22 |
Guest54 |
and one map corner had a ”magic spring” (two water sources in the invisible part, so the corner would always become a source) |
| 19:28 |
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| 20:01 |
Guest54 |
Desour i have debugged the water thing and i can confirm that the issue hinges on ignore nodes. if you place some cobble right outside the visible area (which is trivial even using a normal client, as long as you can noclip out there) the water at the border will slowly vanish. |
| 20:02 |
Desour |
liquid flow should maybe not replace ignore |
| 20:02 |
Guest54 |
it does not |
| 20:02 |
Guest54 |
it only replaces airlikes |
| 20:02 |
Desour |
ok |
| 20:02 |
Guest54 |
or well, it replaces air |
| 20:02 |
Guest54 |
the thing is, the map border is permanently unloaded |
| 20:02 |
Guest54 |
and it kinda needs to stay that way |
| 20:03 |
Guest54 |
to flow water outside the border you need to first remove the ignores (for good reason) |
| 20:03 |
Guest54 |
and ignores need to be removable (just saying it, otherwise someone will try to change that) |
| 20:04 |
Guest54 |
is there anything about what happened to paramat? that dev seemed to be very knowledgeful about what happens at the border |
| 20:05 |
Guest54 |
Desour the solution for the bug reporter is btw to use a mod to make an invisible wall out of stone or whatever that is exactly 1 over the boundary where the map stops being visible. |
| 20:05 |
Krock |
!seen paramat |
| 20:05 |
MinetestBot |
Krock: paramat was last seen at 2019-12-20 22:22:09 UTC on #minetest |
| 20:05 |
Guest54 |
let me see if i can do that using an existing mod |
| 20:06 |
Desour |
it's also possible to push nodes into map boarder with a piston, fyi btw |
| 20:06 |
Guest54 |
that was always allowed |
| 20:06 |
Guest54 |
people on different servers used it to hide their valuables |
| 20:07 |
Guest54 |
btw IMO one of the best examples of no second-order-thinking are the kind of users who are like “i can place nodes and detect them beyond the visible map border, this is a bug!!!”. they rarely think about why it was designed that way (and has to be to prevent all kinds of stupidity regarding, e.g. placing structures at the boundary) |
| 20:09 |
Desour |
I highly doubt this was designed as user-facing thing |
| 20:11 |
Guest54 |
the design is for “how to interact with unloaded parts of the world” |
| 20:11 |
Guest54 |
the user would find that if the server lags, fluid would also not flow away as long as a mapblock is not generated |
| 20:12 |
Guest54 |
Desour anyway, i am trying out if the world border fix i suggested works |
| 20:15 |
MTDiscord |
<PrairieWind> query you erlehmann? |
| 20:15 |
MTDiscord |
<PrairieWind> wdym? |
| 20:16 |
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| 20:17 |
Guest54 |
PrairieWind it's an IRC thing |
| 20:17 |
Guest54 |
sending a private message |
| 20:19 |
MTDiscord |
<PrairieWind> do I need to login and pm you? |
| 20:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Yes you will need to connect to IRC proper to do that, can't be done over the Discord bridge. |
| 20:20 |
Guest54 |
we can do it later, dw it is not urgent |
| 20:21 |
MTDiscord |
<PrairieWind> I can join, let me see if I can figure out the website |
| 20:21 |
MTDiscord |
<PrairieWind> I need to reinstall konversation soon |
| 20:21 |
MTDiscord |
<PrairieWind> I am on irc, just not mainly on this network |
| 20:22 |
MTDiscord |
<PrairieWind> Im usually on edgynet |
| 20:22 |
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| 20:54 |
Guest54 |
Desour the world border fix does not work bc of the way that mod works, but it definitely could work (as long as no one broke the “placing nodes outside the visible area” thing) |
| 20:54 |
Guest54 |
i'd still suggest to that user to use a world border mod if they care |
| 20:54 |
Guest54 |
after all, how do they know there isn't an ocean beyond visible range‽ |
| 20:57 |
Desour |
I've commented a link to irc logs. maybe they'll read your suggestion ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
| 20:57 |
Desour |
!cat |
| 20:57 |
MinetestBot |
http://i.imgur.com/gfPVdsc.jpg |
| 20:57 |
Desour |
bye |
| 21:00 |
Guest54 |
thx desour |
| 21:34 |
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| 22:01 |
cheapie |
Found a video of an elevator motor IRL that sounds similar to what those ones in MT are meant to sound like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmhgkc9kz8E |
| 22:01 |
cheapie |
I think the original recordings were /probably/ from a gearless motor but with a similar drive. |
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| 22:13 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner did you know: ice from icewalker should only die out in sunlight (i.e. it should prob stay forever in the end) |
| 22:13 |
Guest54 |
or rather, i think it needs light |
| 22:33 |
Guest54 |
muurkha did you make minetest mods btw? |
| 22:33 |
Guest54 |
muurkha also do you like hyperrogue? |
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