Time Nick Message 00:10 fluxionary_ huh, apparently there's a "none" item type lurking in the undocumented parts of the lua API 00:11 fluxionary_ ("used for the hand and unknown items") 00:18 fluxionary_ cheapie: that elevator is incredible :) 02:32 cheapie Oblomov: Here's a video of riding them up (and back down), with the server settings changed a bit to make that more reliable: https://cheapiesystems.com/media/movestone-elevator-up.webm 02:33 cheapie It's still not perfect, but a faster dedicated_server_step does bring multiplayer usage from "works sometimes" to "works most of the time" on the way up. 02:36 cheapie lmisu and fluxionary_ might find that ^ interesting too 02:37 fluxionary_ what if you create some sort of entity that the player is attached to, that is moved by the movestone system? 02:39 cheapie I could, but with the settings changed it's generally "good enough", and at some point there you're probably going to end up finding yourself making an elevator mod instead of just /building/ an elevator. 02:39 cheapie At the moment the only elevator-specific mod there is the one providing the call buttons and PI/lantern combo things, which is also the one adding the motor and chime sounds for the digilines noteblocks. 02:39 fluxionary_ cheapie, good point, there is a decent elevator mod that didn't teleport people, last time i checked 02:40 cheapie There are a few that work, haven't seen any that I would call "realistic" though. 02:40 fluxionary_ the one i saw previously was realtime_elevators 02:41 fluxionary_ i was fairly impressed w/ it at the time, but that was a while back 02:41 cheapie The shacknet one is the least-bad I've seen so far - the movement is okay but everything else about it seems to be to "just barely enough to make it work in the game" levels. 02:42 cheapie Like IIRC it just sorta.... exists on all floors at the same time, and then once you actually get in then it stops existing on the other floors until it arrives again. 02:43 fluxionary_ a finnish player named iska made a pretty interesting mesecons-only elevator on blocky survival, and Test_User made a mesecons/digilines contraption that could be controlled to move arbitrarily horizontally 02:43 cheapie I have a relay logic implementation of a 3-floor one of these with working doors and everything, but of course not the special modes. 02:43 fluxionary_ Test_User's contraption made use of a bench (or something?) to keep the player bound to the machine 02:45 cheapie Piston sounds were changed to relay sounds for this one, but otherwise just plain mesecons stuff: https://cheapiesystems.com/media/mtrelaylogic.webm 02:46 cheapie That one was built on (and still exists on) a public server, but one that has the step interval turned down far enough for this sort of thing to usually work. 02:47 cheapie There are a few of the Luacontroller-driven ones in service there too (maxevents was raised on that server), with the biggest installation currently being a group of 4 elevators serving 9 floors. 02:47 fluxionary_ as someone who likes logic puzzles and has built some nontrivial mesecons machines, i love seeing people make such well-finished designs. bravo :) 02:48 DeepThgt nice 02:48 cheapie I'm also the one who built this back in 2015, if you like pure mesecons stuff: https://cheapiesystems.com/media/images/tictactoe-mesecons.png 02:48 DeepThgt fanciest machine ive made is either the auto pine tree harvester or the automatic fireworkz maker/launcher 02:50 DeepThgt cheapie, that elevator is just impressive\ 02:52 cheapie This is the Luacontroller program for the elevators (currently configured for the parking elevators in the video): https://gist.github.com/cheapie/30ac989d0b6dcef0f76f4bb06fa223e2 02:53 cheapie ...I really should do a demo video of the car wash sometime, the one with the whole graphical wash program editor and its own sorta-scripting-language. 02:53 DeepThgt oooh ty, im learning lua and example code helps 02:53 fluxionary_ certainly one of the most complicated luacontroller programs i've ever seen. 02:54 cheapie I think my record for longest LuaC program was one of my older traffic light controllers at 1677 lines. 02:55 fluxionary_ a player named Andrew built a general storage request system w/ digilines on your-land, unfortunately lag made it unreliable 02:55 fluxionary_ but it had over 1000 lines if i remember right 02:55 cheapie The LTC-4000E's firmware (it emulates a Luacontroller internally despite not being one) is a bit shorter at 1190 lines. 02:56 fluxionary_ what's an LTC-4000E? some other mod? 02:56 cheapie Yes, it's my current (I mean, it's 5 years old now, but I haven't made anything newer) traffic signal controller. 02:58 MTDiscord https://content.minetest.net/packages/cheapie/ltc4000e/ 02:58 muurkha cheapie: that tictactoe game is pretty amazing 02:58 cheapie I don't have a good demo video of the LTC-4000E, but this test intersection is controlled by one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BqRvMltiL0 02:59 cheapie I do have one for the old LTC-4000, the E isn't much different aside from no longer using a LuaC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-tOfCZrrVk 03:00 fluxionary_ hm, i can't find that machine anymore, but there's another machine that just does auto-farming w/ 612 lines 03:00 fluxionary_ (that Andrew built) 03:01 fluxionary_ "factory floor 0.4.7.8.1" 03:01 fluxionary_ "Manages a Minetest furnace + pipeworks autocrafter in order to make anything" 03:01 cheapie More Luacontroller shenanigans (microphone sucks, turn your volume up) in singleplayer using some extra mods: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf_ZC346lEM 03:02 cheapie Since it might not be real obvious what's going on there - that uses a mod that connects digilines to arbitrary SCSI (or SAS, or ATAPI, or USB mass storage, or...) devices and allows a Luacontroller to control them. It's reading status information from that CD drive and sending it commands to play the CD through its headphone jack. 03:03 fluxionary_ on blocky survival, there was someone who ported libaa to minetest and used those marquees to play a video file (i think it was one of the star-wars prequels). it lagged the server so bad that the mod got removed. 03:04 fluxionary_ letting minetest actually control hardware is black magic IMO, i wish you luck =D 03:05 cheapie Works with hard drives too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeiJxJPCn2U 03:05 fluxionary_ reminds me of the thing "every time someone connects to this server w/ javascript disabled, a frog dies. it's automatic, the frogs are wired up to the server" 03:06 cheapie Also speaking of lag: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4cP_VujDWA 03:07 fluxionary_ cheapie: oh, that one makes me smile =D 03:07 cheapie The real-life version is a bit faster. Just a bit. https://cheapiesystems.com/media/VID_20210204_120951887.webm 03:08 fluxionary_ i'm guessing none of this works well w/ mesecons_debug 03:08 cheapie I'm not even familiar with what mesecons_debug is. 03:09 fluxionary_ something that buckaroo made to keep mesecons from lagging out servers, that i poked at, but i'm not very happy w/ the state of it still 03:11 cheapie The server that I generally play on (haven't actually played on one in a while now, but...) generally prefers a different method - where slight amounts of lag when you're using a machine is acceptable, but the machine is required to stop when nobody is nearby. (often a blinky plant is used to sense that, they stop when unloaded) 03:11 fluxionary_ basically, it throttles mesecons, but the basic mechanism (1) could be made to throttle *everything* (2) doesn't really throttle mesecons too effectively (it's triggered by lag, not by how much mesecons itself contributes to lag) 03:12 fluxionary_ cheapie, almost all mechanisms are disabled when players aren't around the machines, automatically 03:13 fluxionary_ that's a basic game mechanic, right? 03:13 cheapie Unless something changed recently, Luacontroller interrupts don't stop when unloaded unless they're in lightweight mode, and pipeworks tubed items never stop. 03:13 fluxionary_ the mapblocks aren't loaded 03:13 cheapie Both of them will even (briefly) load mapblocks as needed in order to continue running. 03:14 fluxionary_ pipeworks... i've got a whole other criticism of that, other than basic automation mods 03:15 cheapie I'm not really here to try to sell you on pipeworks or whatever, just... that server does have it installed, and that's how it works or at least did at the time (I don't think it's changed since). 03:15 fluxionary_ wait, luacontroller interrupts keep going when something is unloaded? i don't know how i'd have missed that, the only way they could do that is by forceloading? 03:16 cheapie In non-lightweight mode they use the mesecons ActionQueue, which is a server-wide list held outside of the mapblock(s) involved. 03:16 fluxionary_ no need to sell me on pipeworks, but it's everywhere =D i prefer tubelib, though neither mod is a perfect replacement for the other 03:16 fluxionary_ hm 03:16 cheapie This does make spotting loops easy at least, you can just stand far away from machines and see what's in mesecons.queue.actions. 03:17 fluxionary_ i need to read mesecons more carefully, i'm not sure i've delved into that too far 03:18 fluxionary_ i've certainly gotten into the details, but it sounds like i'm missing some 03:18 cheapie On that server, it is (or at least was? I did most of the work when I was there, dunno if someone else does now) policed heavily enough that even just leaving a single LuaC running with nothing but "interrupt(10,"blah")" in it would result in the thing being red-tagged and shut down within a few days. 03:18 cheapie Like it can do whatever when you're logged in and near it (or someone else is near it) and/or it's being used to do things, but it *must* stop within a reasonable time when not. 03:19 fluxionary_ cheapie: was this not just cuz random other players would come into your area and load your machines? 03:19 cheapie It was considered acceptable for the machine to be running if some random other player was there, it just had to stop when there were no players near it. 03:20 cheapie For things that needed accurate timing, the usual method was just to use interrupts like normal, but for the machine to stop if it detected an attached blinky plant hadn't blinked in 10-ish seconds. 03:20 fluxionary_ ah, on the server i play on recreationally these day, you've either got to use a special device that disables your machines when you're offline, or set up your machine so that admins can disable it when you're not around 03:20 fluxionary_ (the server is your-land) 03:21 cheapie A switch is considered acceptable too provided that you remember to turn it off before leaving. 03:21 cheapie (so is a player detector, or whatever - the rules just say that it has to stop, and don't enforce a specific method) 03:21 fluxionary_ this is not an automation-heavy server though, if things break, it's up to the machine owners to fix it 03:22 cheapie This is an automation-heavy server (VE-Creative) 03:22 fluxionary_ we've got a "log-in" detector; it emits a signal when a player is logged in, and not when they are not. 03:22 fluxionary_ which scales to a "reasonable" number of alts w/out much trouble 03:23 cheapie Part of why I wouldn't like the login detector is for things like those elevators - I'd like for people to be able to use them even when the person who built it isn't logged in. 03:23 fluxionary_ cheapie, i agree, that's the sort of thing that should get special exception to work outside the normal system 03:23 cheapie The way I wrote them, when all of the cars in the group are idle there's just no interrupts scheduled or anything at all - even if someone pushes all of the buttons, eventually it will finish serving all of the calls and become idle. 03:23 fluxionary_ cheapie, it's just so impressive 03:24 cheapie The car wash is similar there - it does use interrupts when washing, but after the wash finishes it just sits there idle. 03:26 fluxionary_ i'm gonna get to bed now. cheapie, i've been impressed by your mods before, it's been a pleasure talking to you :) 13:06 kilbith man fuck this shit weather mod in MTG who messes with the shadows and you wonder why 13:07 kilbith should be sent to orbit and never be seen again 13:09 MTDiscord so true 13:15 kilbith https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4jPYkgxVVM 13:36 Guest54 kilbith “i'm escaping to the one place that hasn't been corrupted by capitalism – space!” https://yewtu.be/watch?v=niZpcdp2v34 13:36 Guest54 (tim curry in his second-best role) 13:37 Guest54 (tim curry's best role was obviously dr. frank-n-furter) 13:38 Guest54 uh, does anyone have an idea why i sometimes get a weirdly corrupted elongated moon at daytime or sun at nighttime? 13:38 Guest54 i'll try to find a screenshot 13:43 Guest54 AncientMariner have you seen this, ever? https://mister-muffin.de/p/0r9_.png 13:43 Guest54 it flickers and is hard to catch 13:43 Guest54 i am torn between “blame the engine” and “blame mineclone2”, let's see if i can get it in mtg too 13:44 potatoxel[m] ;o blackholes 14:21 MTDiscord haha, i was thinking blackholes.. is that a mod? 🙂 14:22 MTDiscord but i am not sure if it is engine or mcl2? if it's unloaded and the speed is manifesting on it, it could be mcl2, but if it's continuously there, there could be something engine related 14:30 mazes_83 I'm trying to teach my son programming making simple mods 14:30 mazes_83 now he asks me: "how do I gic commic ?" 14:31 Guest54 AncientMariner that is mineclone2 from git, not a mod 14:31 Desour did he maybe mean "git commit"? 14:32 muurkha yeah, using source control is often a significant hurdle for nascent hackers 14:32 Guest54 AncientMariner what do you mean speed is manifesting? 14:34 Desour short version: make sure git is installed and configured (i.e. stuff in gitconfig is set), also make sure nano is installed and configured as git editor (or you'll cage your child in vim), open terminal, `git add .`, `git commit` (opens nano, you can type the commit msg) 14:35 Guest54 AncientMariner have you chosen a penance for the texture pack crimes that the mcl2 developers are planning to commit yet? 14:35 Desour (and ctrl+x to close nano) 14:35 Guest54 Desour :q! is the only thing i remember about vi/vim 14:35 mazes_83 Desour: it was a joke, we are speaking French, he is only ten, and his pronouciation was not accurate. 14:36 Desour oh, ok, so your're fine 14:36 muurkha ['ʒik ko'mik] 14:36 mazes_83 but it was a combo: "geek comic" 14:36 Guest54 mazes_83 kids can do amazing things, i wish you great success! 14:36 muurkha why didn't he pronounce it like "gi commi"? 14:37 Guest54 yes, i learned about faux french that you always leave of the last letter and then the french ppl pretent do understand you! 14:37 Guest54 i mean the last consonant 14:37 Guest54 this one time in paris i asked for directions to “gar du nor” and it worked 14:38 mazes_83 I chose a dns via afraid.org -> jumpingcrab.com. So we made a mod with jumping crabs, not really useful or to get out of home but I'm very satisfied by his work 14:39 Guest54 the person helping me get to gare du nord turned out to be an ex-soldier who was stationed in germany when younger and he proceeded to tell me all about how to him german tradition of architecture is superior 14:40 Guest54 i figure he had no love for le corbusier hehe 14:41 mazes_83 but we are from south, and we pronounce full words, with special accents for the end. people from paris seem eating their words 14:41 Guest54 “eating their words” made me smile hehe 14:42 Guest54 btw, does anyone know how the architectural style is called where new buildings look like they were designed in minetest? 14:43 Guest54 like, lots of regular windows, very cubic 14:44 muurkha brutalist? modernist? 14:44 muurkha mazes_83: oh! I see 14:45 Guest54 it's not really brutalism 14:45 Desour 1m thick windows? 14:45 muurkha my stepmother told me about a provençal guy she used to work with who pronounced things that way. his favorite saying was "c'est con, ça", and he pronounced "con" as [koŋ], like English "Kong" 14:45 Desour nice isolation if that are all layers 14:46 muurkha (meaning "that's stupid") 14:46 Guest54 muurkha consider the following https://www.photocase.com/photos/3990494-reflecting-blue-windows-in-grey-concrete-of-a-modern-office-building-in-summer-sunshine-in-the-city-of-frankfurt-am-main-in-hesse-germany-photocase-stock-photo-large.jpeg 14:47 Guest54 muurkha high windows, flat facade etc. 14:47 Guest54 Desour you got me with the 1m thick windows hahahaha 14:47 Guest54 Desour minetest bunker architecture software hehe 14:48 Guest54 mazes_83 did you teach testing too? 14:49 Guest54 Desour regarding the waterlogging, any solution i can find that “fits in head” and is not purely visual restricts the waterlogging to one type of fluid :( 14:50 Guest54 visual waterlogging is easy: just steal the water rendering from adjacent nodes and fix the rendering (so you don't get a dent in the water) 14:50 Guest54 and maybe that is a good first step 14:51 Guest54 for things like undersea rails or undersee nodeboxes 14:51 Desour I think waterlogging that doesn't flow through nodes would, aka visual waterlogging, would suffice for many situations 14:51 Guest54 as i said 14:51 Guest54 we agree violently it seems 14:51 Desour you just typed faster 14:51 muurkha what's the best way to practice typing faster? 14:52 muurkha other than arguing on IRC I mean 14:52 Desour I'm just a little afraid of what happens with the simple waterlogging node type when more complex waterlogging is implemented 14:53 Guest54 uh, nothing? 14:53 Desour hm, but it's probably fine to keep it then 14:53 Guest54 more complex waterlogging is at least a slight overhaul of the water reflow algorithm, adding at least 1 more state 14:54 Guest54 i.e. a waterlogged node that never turns into a source, flow or air, but interacts as if it were flow (or source, if you want to be funny about it) 14:55 Guest54 that is actually easy to implement – but it is clear to me that it will only ever work for a single type of fluid if the complexity should be limited 14:56 Guest54 so i would suggest to add visual waterlogging and think *very hard* about a general solution 14:57 Desour supporting more than one liquid requires mapping to the liquid content_t in some way, as already discussed 14:57 Guest54 muurkha ktouch helped me a lot. also choosing a layout that is optimized for bigrams and trigrams in your most-used language (i use neo2 layout) 14:58 Guest54 Desour i don't get the sparse mapping thing. like, where are you going to save that anyway? 14:59 Desour btw. is there a better name than "waterlogging" for this feature? maybe "liquidlogging"? 15:00 Desour Guest54: the sparse mapping would just be stored in the map, i.e. as part of a mapblock 15:00 Guest54 “optionally_submerged” (so some clueless person can later change it to always be submerged trollface.jpg) 15:00 Desour ah, and optionally_submerged_optional for a version with client setting >:) 15:01 Guest54 server owners will cry for CSM so they can set that setting on the client 15:01 Guest54 the saga continues 15:01 muurkha Guest54: I'll give ktouch a try, thanks! 15:01 Guest54 previously on “bool gender; float money; uint8_t employees;” … 15:01 Desour submergable maybe? 15:01 muurkha haha 15:02 Guest54 you laugh, but an ex-employee of a german bank told me they actually did float money or at least something similar, explanation was “typescript in a backend” hehehe 15:03 muurkha many people do 15:03 Desour if you have enough float money, you can produce more 15:04 Guest54 as soon as the selbstbestimmungsgesetz comes i will try to change part of my name to be unrepresentable in the basic multilingual plane, that will teach the state to use appropriate datatypes! 15:04 Guest54 oh i have another funny 15:04 Guest54 so my PIN for the bank card is 5 digits 15:05 potatoxel[m] noted 15:05 Guest54 and some payment processing terminals choke on that … by rejecting the transaction. 15:05 Guest54 the worst terminal once locked my card 15:06 Guest54 hmm, minetest sometimes just segfaults at startup 15:06 Guest54 i wonder why 15:06 Guest54 how to debug 15:06 Desour start with gdb 15:07 Guest54 oh i remember that program 15:07 Desour if it dumped the core, you can debug that session with coredumctl if on systemd 15:07 Guest54 no coredump sorry 15:07 Guest54 let's hope it crashes using gdb 15:08 Desour (Speicherabzug geschrieben, not Kern ausgestoßen, in german) 15:08 Guest54 rubenwardy btw before you put image files inside items that are displayed on the client i suggest you make sure that they are properly validated. 15:09 Guest54 rubenwardy otherwise you get “book banning” again, but not with overlong item meta but with items containing corrupted images 15:09 Guest54 i.e. you throw a player an item, their client crashes 15:09 rubenwardy I'm not going to be doing that, they'll use the standard texture strings ie: file names 15:09 Desour which book mod allows setting images? 15:11 Guest54 rubenwardy well [png exists, so … 15:11 Guest54 let's hope it does not go crashy 15:13 Guest54 Desour “bookbanning” is just throwing books with overlong meta on players in minecraft and making them crash their client. in minetest this is not easily possible, since it does lead to noticeable server crashes. 15:13 Guest54 which usually means the server fixes that possibility 15:13 Guest54 some enterprising anarchy server player tried to convince the minetest devs to *not* crash the server some time back, but were not successful 15:13 Guest54 (the goal is to not crash the server so you can crash clients without the server noticing) 15:15 Guest54 the stupidity is ofc that server owners like to blame crashes on “malicious users”, usually it's not like that 15:16 Guest54 if they log in and it crashes most of the time it is something wrong with a mod and it needs to be fixed 15:18 Elouin A friend of mine just tried to register on mesehub, but didn't get an email. 15:19 Guest54 Desour great i can not get it to crash under gdb lol 15:19 Guest54 damn heisenbug 15:19 Desour I can only recommend to enable coredump saving, it's really useful 15:20 Guest54 how do i 15:20 Guest54 is this a sysctl thing 15:21 muurkha I think you can use /proc 15:21 Desour I only know for arch: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Core_dump?useskin=vector 15:22 muurkha it's Linux, so the Arch answer applies generally 15:22 Desour no, it's still systemd specific 15:22 Guest54 lol 15:22 Desour (and the distro may have different defaults) 15:22 muurkha oh, sorry 15:23 Desour (but otherwise yes :)) 15:24 Guest54 btw, who of you is velartrill, if any? 15:28 muurkha oh dear, is velartrill playing minetest now? 15:29 Guest54 didn't she add some portal stuff 15:29 Guest54 particle 15:29 Guest54 i mean 15:29 Guest54 also i think she made a sorcery mod 15:30 Guest54 muurkha i recently came upon velartrills nkvd.c and was shocked and appalled, you had similar experiences? :D 15:31 Guest54 yes here https://c.hale.su/ → sorcery [lua] a Minetest mod that adds a magic system and supporting functionality. 15:33 muurkha I met her on Twitter, therefore it was a bad experience 15:33 Guest54 and here is the horrible, horrible program that i mentioned (content warning: undefined behaviour, “XDG_CONFIG_HOME  specifies the redirection target […] but can  be  overridden  with nkvd_gulag”) https://c.hale.su/util/file?name=nkvd.c&ci=tip 15:34 Guest54 the part that i am interested is is this: 15:34 potatoxel[m] what is da license? 15:34 Guest54 > only works when  built without optimizations.  it's probably that wrecker Trotsky's fault. i'm working on it. 15:34 Guest54 anyone has an idea like what part of the program is undefined 15:34 Guest54 ? 15:36 Guest54 muurkha did you get the impression vt is unironically a tankie or is it more like “LoL i TrOlL u” cosplaying? 15:37 Guest54 potatoxel[m] it says “© AGPLv3” 15:37 potatoxel[m] wheere 15:37 potatoxel[m] lol 15:37 Guest54 potatoxel[m] for the sorcery mod i suggest to read the contribution guidelines, they are … special 15:37 Guest54 https://c.hale.su/sorcery/wiki?name=contributing 15:38 Guest54 > all developers and contributors are expected to be familiar with the Hymn of the Sightless Worms, which should be recited twice (except during full moons) whenever creating new tickets or committing new code. we also require that you avert your eyes during solar eclipses, and carry always on your person a small jade token carved in the shape of a 15:38 Guest54 scarab, for obvious reasons. 15:38 Guest54 > proper coding attire consists of a velvet summoning cloak, an amulet of dark and terrible power strung about your neck on a leather cord fashioned from the hide of a dire elk slain with a scimitar carved from bone on a midsummer evening high in the cold mountains many leagues from the nearest human settlement […] 15:38 potatoxel[m] lol 15:39 potatoxel[m] but where is the copyrght @AGLP? 15:39 Guest54 sourcing the technical interview 15:40 Guest54 it is as mother said: “Vidrun, fierce and clever, may our clan’s wisdom be yours: Never read Hacker Ne^H^H^H stalinist propaganda” 15:40 potatoxel[m] waa 15:40 Guest54 potatoxel[m] in case you did not know https://aphyr.com/posts/341-hexing-the-technical-interview 15:41 potatoxel[m] Where does it say AGPLv3 15:41 Guest54 this is a literary genre of the 2010s, anti-naturalist mystical coding interview questions 15:42 Guest54 potatoxel[m] are you referring to the sorcery mod or what 15:43 potatoxel[m] yes to the sorcery mod 15:43 MTDiscord btw, Guest54, the more you bash us for the texture issue, the more inclined I am to ignore you. Raising concerns and options is useful, bashing decisions, well, it just gets people's backs up. Up to you, of course, but it's becoming continuous, and there is a difference between raising an issue, and consistently bashing something... 15:44 Guest54 AncientMariner i was not trying to harass you or make fun of you. i wanted to know which of the several solutions you have chosen. maybe i was of jokings too much. 15:45 potatoxel[m] cant see any license on the sorcery mod so eh 15:45 potatoxel[m] 3: 15:45 MTDiscord the developer who was embarking on that isn't involved in the project right now. so it's parked. i am thinking about it 15:45 MTDiscord i am not ruling it out now, but i'm thinking about it and have other priorities 15:46 Guest54 AncientMariner uh, that's a pattern that previous maintainers had as well, someone partially ruining things with good intentions and then getting it merged half-finished and then going away. i have no idea how to solve this without telling people they are supposed to fix everything they break before stuff get merged … but stuff is already merged, 15:46 Guest54 so … good luck, i guess? 15:47 MTDiscord i personally don't dive into things without thinking things through, and any new information that comes to light, i will digest 15:47 MTDiscord i ain't going to move on something i haven't made a decision on yet 15:47 MTDiscord but if someone did rename some, i probably wouldn't block it 15:47 MTDiscord but not many people are lining up for it, as it ain't fun 15:48 MTDiscord if i've merged it, and they go, i own it 15:48 MTDiscord it's now part of legacy codebase 15:48 MTDiscord most devs we have will rework stuff and take feedback on board 15:49 MTDiscord the people still involved, i have a lot of respect for, and i don't like bashing mistakes 15:49 MTDiscord we all make them 15:49 MTDiscord i've made a few when learning, and had to fix them 15:49 Guest54 uh, not everyone is making mistakes on the same level. what separates the master from the novice? 10000 errors. 15:50 Guest54 some people think they are the master though, but they made the same error 10000 times 15:50 Guest54 surely you have interacted with such devs (everyone has) 15:50 MTDiscord if i see repeated mistakes and a lack of learning, i'd be a bit more firm 15:50 MTDiscord if i think it's a behavioural rather than skill issue. 15:50 Guest54 good! 15:51 Guest54 IMO the “skill issue” is usually going for the first thing that “makes sense” 15:51 MTDiscord but we are only as good as our collective knowledge, and we can only catch stuff we know about 15:51 Guest54 i.e. many software developers or ticket writers seem to not intuitively do secord-order thinking 15:51 Guest54 second-order 15:51 MTDiscord even with newer devs, i have suggested improvements if i spot an issue, migration or performance wise 15:52 Guest54 well in this case you'll have less problems if you choose on the rename thing before doing a new release 15:52 Guest54 since the last release still worked well 15:52 Guest54 i mean you can just replicate the mod names in the texture folder 15:53 Guest54 AncientMariner in case you were not around that far back, the mob problem was also a partial rewrite followed by “bye” from the contributor (who shall remain unnamed for now) 15:53 MTDiscord i will be clear. i'm not renaming things back. i am thinking of mitigations 15:53 MTDiscord i'm aware of the mob rewrite and the characters 15:54 MTDiscord what is done is done 15:54 MTDiscord there was also a tendency to want a new api, and think it'll magically solve every problem 15:54 MTDiscord (and it won't) 15:54 Guest54 oh yes lol 15:54 Guest54 or to put everything in globalstep! 15:54 MTDiscord because behaviour requires logic, and i ain't seen much that mobs-redo api can limit us by 15:54 Guest54 “let's make a globalstep API” used to be a joke on clamity 15:54 MTDiscord obviously, we may need to enrich with new attributes 15:55 MTDiscord don't get me started on globalstep and searching for nodes/objects. it's virtually the cause of every performance ticket i've worked on 15:55 Guest54 haha 15:56 MTDiscord i've actually made an api (oh gosh, kill me, it's a meme), to ensure that globalsteps can be limited to not every run 15:56 Guest54 remind me again, why is ”renaming files back” not on the menu? after all, it makes everything work again 100%. and the renamed files could be in textures/mcl_whatever as that would solve the “some people can not find all the textures” problem. 15:56 Guest54 hahahaha 15:56 MTDiscord now a 1 line can prevent overuse and hammering 15:56 MTDiscord long term, i still feel renaming is the correct thing 15:57 Guest54 i didn't say it was not, i said a half-assed solution is worse than doing nothing 15:57 MTDiscord i don't want to break mods, of course, but i'm wondering whether we provide an alternative image temporarily, or provide a supported mod until it's supported by mod authors 15:57 Guest54 lol 15:58 Guest54 regarding renaming, with the color item renames there exists a 100% correct upgrade strategy that requires no recipes and results in names that match, without any item turning into another. 15:58 MTDiscord i'm thinking of duplicating a handful of textures if needs be, and i absolutely hate it 15:58 Guest54 i suggested it and it was not chosen 15:59 MTDiscord colour updates for dye is been and done 15:59 MTDiscord it has been release already 15:59 MTDiscord there is a mitigation in that users can convert their dyes back to materials 15:59 Guest54 i was just providing an example to point out i am not against renaming stuff, i am against doing ”the first thing that makes sense” and then doing that badly 16:00 MTDiscord and i would keep that minimum 6 months if i can 16:01 Guest54 my way would simply be to rename mcl_dye into mcl_dyes and then aliasing every old color. less code, no mitigation recipes necessary. 16:01 Guest54 and no way to get lapis from blue plants lol 16:01 MTDiscord to do the correct thing, you have to know the options and what is the pro's and cons. it is an experience issue, and something learnt over time. it is about sharing that knowledge 16:02 MTDiscord i turned off dye from blue plants for now 16:02 MTDiscord to keep the mitigation longers 16:02 Guest54 yes, although almost every time i shared my knowledge to the mcl2 team in 2021 and 2022 i was laughed away, so … 16:02 MTDiscord (well, i didn't, prairie did on my request) 16:02 MTDiscord i cannot talk about the past, and i am not those people 16:03 Guest54 nah, history does not repeat 16:03 Guest54 it rhymes 16:03 MTDiscord what did I do? 16:03 MTDiscord please tell me I am not in trouble again 16:03 MTDiscord the recipe for blue flowers/dye turn off temporarily 16:03 MTDiscord ah 16:03 MTDiscord you haven't been in trouble..? 16:03 MTDiscord i didn't want to take credit for your pr, and your work 16:04 MTDiscord but i can assure you, i have messed up, and will mess up again, as i am human. any shared knowledge that can help to minimise that is always welcome 16:05 MTDiscord and i do enjoy discussing things with you. you have good knowledge and a lot of experience 16:06 Guest54 AncientMariner i guess PrairieWind is referring to “PrairieWind made a PR that changed how optionally framed glasslikes are rendered and did not know that a) it turns obby glass in mtg invisible b) it does not work well with many texture packs, turning glass invisible or making weird borders c) framed glass rendering can never work the way it is 16:06 Guest54 unless your texture pack is 16×16 (just try it out with handpainted 512×512 textures and tell me how it looks lol)” 16:06 Guest54 as i said before, the mistake is not something that can be attributed to one person 16:07 Guest54 like a bunch of swiss cheese slices, it takes every hole to line up so that such stuff gets approved (in particular, i think no one read the 3 or 4 previous issues on the topic that clearly spelled out stuff like the problems of non-16×16-textures for glasslikes) 17:40 Guest54 AncientMariner btw, why are things like the mapping table not marked as WIP? i mean there is a whole mod for it 17:41 Guest54 i mean to shut up the people who are like “uh, job site block X does not work” 17:41 Guest54 if it clearly says it in the interface, maybe they just accept it 17:41 Guest54 i mean, it worked for other things 17:59 Krock !cat 17:59 MinetestBot http://i.imgur.com/BY5ehYX.jpg 18:00 Desour :O 18:00 Desour !cat 18:00 MinetestBot http://i.imgur.com/iATkdQO.jpg 18:00 Guest54 what 18:00 Guest54 !help 18:00 MinetestBot https://github.com/sfan5/minetestbot-modules/blob/master/COMMANDS.md 18:00 Desour !cat 18:00 MinetestBot http://i.imgur.com/qjzMvkJ.jpg 18:01 Desour !cat 18:01 MinetestBot http://i.imgur.com/c6nvxLE.jpg 18:01 Guest54 the cat thing is not in the docs 18:02 Krock !doge 18:02 MinetestBot http://i.imgur.com/NOIyL1K.jpg 18:02 potatoxel[m] too much cats = kick 18:02 potatoxel[m] :o 18:02 potatoxel[m] but we need cats! 18:07 Guest54 stop spamming pls 18:08 Krock how about no 18:13 Guest54 Krock you worked on the changelog, do you? 18:14 rubenwardy !cat 18:14 MinetestBot http://i.imgur.com/kA8l8oP.jpg 18:14 rubenwardy I approve this message 18:14 Krock Guest54: minetest, changelog, core dev stuff but not minetest bot 18:15 Krock also my reply was solely meant to trigger you 18:17 Guest54 Krock i ask because if the default for the optionally framed glasslike is not changed back to ”render it without frames by default” before release, i would suggest to add something to the changelog for 5.7 … like “breaking change: glasslike textures now must have a minimum size of 16×16 and also provide special tiles for connected glass. 18:17 Guest54 textures above 16×16 must be square and have an edge length that is a multiple of 16 and also have 1/16 of its border completely filled to prevent rendering errors with the connected framed glass” 18:24 jonadab Are texture dimensions not required to be a power of two? 18:24 Guest54 jonadab not that i know of. the smallest texture pack i know is 5×5 18:25 jonadab I would've expected 16x16, 32x32, 64x64, 128x128, ... 18:25 rubenwardy It's not required but it is strongly recommended 18:26 Guest54 something something android texture dimensions 18:27 jonadab And these days, the smaller sizes like 16x16 don't really make sense for new texture packs, though keeping support for old ones is of course reasonable. 18:27 potatoxel[m] WAH 18:27 potatoxel[m] * wah* 18:28 potatoxel[m] i like low res 18:28 potatoxel[m] probably mostly nostalgia, but it gud c: 18:29 jonadab potatoxel[m]: I can _sort_ of sympathize with that, as I also play text-based games (NetHack, Brogue, etc.) 18:29 jonadab Though that's not entirely the same. Text is very easy to parse visually. 18:38 Guest54 jonadab for stylistic reasons, smaller sizes do make sense 18:48 Guest54 PrairieWind could you query me? 18:59 MinetestBot 02[git] 04SmallJoker -> 03minetest/minetest: Revert "Enable connected glass by default (#13242)" 131c1f1b1 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/1c1f1b161512fea8a04fade4db274fa11659bf68 (152023-04-02T18:56:31Z) 19:08 Guest54 Desour you can close this probably, unless you want to special-case flowing water at several boundaries (i recently looked at the water flow code and you *probably* do not want to do that) https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/13378 19:13 Guest54 to be more explicit: flowing liquid adjacent to unloaded areas is … oh wait. this might be caused by something stupid regarding the mapgen limit, let me verify. 19:14 Desour Guest54: I haven't looked into how hard it is to fix. it's definitely a bug that I can reproduce 19:14 Guest54 Desour it's not a bug though, as long as the flow is immediately adjacent to an unloaded area, it can not flow away (a source might be in the unloaded area). 19:15 Guest54 if nothing has changed, there is an entire shell of unloaded mapblocks around the visible map (and this shell is needed for various reasons) 19:15 Desour the issue is that you can place a liquid source, remove it, and the flowing liquid stays 19:16 Guest54 flowing liquid only stays if adjacent to an ignore block in this case, am i correct? 19:16 Guest54 i'll debug something quickly hehe 19:16 Desour maybe that shell then needs liquid updating, idk ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 19:17 Guest54 unclear. i'd strongly advice against changing it. 19:18 Guest54 i used to experiment with infinite water at the map border 19:18 Desour or call it a feature, as part of minetest lore 19:19 Desour that would fix two bugs at once: there's a mtg issue that soil stays wet at map boundaries 19:19 Guest54 well, the “bug” is definitely something that players expect (and in some cases, rely upon, i have seen someone do weird things on a test server regarding a liquid that was supposed to have a limited lifetime, or so) 19:19 Guest54 the visible map boundary or the real one? 19:20 Desour take a guess 19:21 Desour if it was behind the boarder of all visible, it probably wouldn't have been reported 19:21 Guest54 i once removed ignore blocks on a server to hide my stuff hehehe 19:22 Guest54 there was also an entire ”invisible” rail line that only existed on the server (i.e. not in map downloads) on clamity 19:22 Guest54 and one map corner had a ”magic spring” (two water sources in the invisible part, so the corner would always become a source) 20:01 Guest54 Desour i have debugged the water thing and i can confirm that the issue hinges on ignore nodes. if you place some cobble right outside the visible area (which is trivial even using a normal client, as long as you can noclip out there) the water at the border will slowly vanish. 20:02 Desour liquid flow should maybe not replace ignore 20:02 Guest54 it does not 20:02 Guest54 it only replaces airlikes 20:02 Desour ok 20:02 Guest54 or well, it replaces air 20:02 Guest54 the thing is, the map border is permanently unloaded 20:02 Guest54 and it kinda needs to stay that way 20:03 Guest54 to flow water outside the border you need to first remove the ignores (for good reason) 20:03 Guest54 and ignores need to be removable (just saying it, otherwise someone will try to change that) 20:04 Guest54 is there anything about what happened to paramat? that dev seemed to be very knowledgeful about what happens at the border 20:05 Guest54 Desour the solution for the bug reporter is btw to use a mod to make an invisible wall out of stone or whatever that is exactly 1 over the boundary where the map stops being visible. 20:05 Krock !seen paramat 20:05 MinetestBot Krock: paramat was last seen at 2019-12-20 22:22:09 UTC on #minetest 20:05 Guest54 let me see if i can do that using an existing mod 20:06 Desour it's also possible to push nodes into map boarder with a piston, fyi btw 20:06 Guest54 that was always allowed 20:06 Guest54 people on different servers used it to hide their valuables 20:07 Guest54 btw IMO one of the best examples of no second-order-thinking are the kind of users who are like “i can place nodes and detect them beyond the visible map border, this is a bug!!!”. they rarely think about why it was designed that way (and has to be to prevent all kinds of stupidity regarding, e.g. placing structures at the boundary) 20:09 Desour I highly doubt this was designed as user-facing thing 20:11 Guest54 the design is for “how to interact with unloaded parts of the world” 20:11 Guest54 the user would find that if the server lags, fluid would also not flow away as long as a mapblock is not generated 20:12 Guest54 Desour anyway, i am trying out if the world border fix i suggested works 20:15 MTDiscord query you erlehmann? 20:15 MTDiscord wdym? 20:17 Guest54 PrairieWind it's an IRC thing 20:17 Guest54 sending a private message 20:19 MTDiscord do I need to login and pm you? 20:20 MTDiscord Yes you will need to connect to IRC proper to do that, can't be done over the Discord bridge. 20:20 Guest54 we can do it later, dw it is not urgent 20:21 MTDiscord I can join, let me see if I can figure out the website 20:21 MTDiscord I need to reinstall konversation soon 20:21 MTDiscord I am on irc, just not mainly on this network 20:22 MTDiscord Im usually on edgynet 20:54 Guest54 Desour the world border fix does not work bc of the way that mod works, but it definitely could work (as long as no one broke the “placing nodes outside the visible area” thing) 20:54 Guest54 i'd still suggest to that user to use a world border mod if they care 20:54 Guest54 after all, how do they know there isn't an ocean beyond visible range‽ 20:57 Desour I've commented a link to irc logs. maybe they'll read your suggestion ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 20:57 Desour !cat 20:57 MinetestBot http://i.imgur.com/gfPVdsc.jpg 20:57 Desour bye 21:00 Guest54 thx desour 22:01 cheapie Found a video of an elevator motor IRL that sounds similar to what those ones in MT are meant to sound like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmhgkc9kz8E 22:01 cheapie I think the original recordings were /probably/ from a gearless motor but with a similar drive. 22:13 Guest54 AncientMariner did you know: ice from icewalker should only die out in sunlight (i.e. it should prob stay forever in the end) 22:13 Guest54 or rather, i think it needs light 22:33 Guest54 muurkha did you make minetest mods btw? 22:33 Guest54 muurkha also do you like hyperrogue?