| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:00 |
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| 00:02 |
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| 00:05 |
Guest54 |
Jonathon, turns out rendering the textures dynamically is the bottle neck, i am a dumbo |
| 00:31 |
Guest54 |
hey pexin hey do you like COLORED EMOJIS??? https://mister-muffin.de/p/FUZp.png :---DDD |
| 00:34 |
Guest54 |
Warr1024 do you know any other bitmap font format besides hexfont that has somewhat-usable unicode bitmap fonts? so far i have wondered if i should implement other file formats for my unicode text renderer, but i do not know which font file format people use (unless it is „tables in lua”, lol). |
| 00:36 |
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| 00:39 |
Pexin |
minetest has toilet? |
| 00:40 |
Guest54 |
Pexin this is just rendering emojis on node surfaces |
| 00:40 |
Pexin |
my avatar must feel awful from years of eating those blueberries |
| 00:40 |
Guest54 |
for codepoint = 0x1F600, 0x1F700, 9 do … |
| 00:41 |
Guest54 |
i have no better idea on how to demonstrate it yet |
| 00:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> homedecor has a toliet |
| 00:41 |
Guest54 |
i mean, texttext mod already does the “each node has a texture with its name” thing |
| 00:42 |
Guest54 |
hmm, i should probably make something like a book that when placed shows an entity that renders the text or so to showcase the feature. |
| 00:42 |
Guest54 |
(ideas welcome) |
| 00:43 |
Guest54 |
also pexin given the thing about the japanese characters you complained, you can supply your own font (but it must be in hexfont format for now) |
| 00:56 |
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| 01:06 |
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| 01:09 |
Blockhead256[m] |
regarding earlier mineclone mod discussion: remember that base game mods are *not* special and do not magically load first |
| 01:09 |
Blockhead256[m] |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=26970 |
| 01:10 |
Blockhead256[m] |
and also that users can load any mod that overrides game mods, like servers with forked MTG tnt |
| 01:10 |
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| 01:17 |
Guest54 |
Blockhead256[m] i agree, a base game mod must not have a special status in the dependency calculation, it must be overridable. |
| 01:19 |
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| 01:27 |
fluxionary |
has anyone proposed adding the various mods from minetest game to the content db as *distinct mods*? |
| 01:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> yes |
| 01:27 |
fluxionary |
jonathon: why hasn't it been done? |
| 01:28 |
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| 01:29 |
fluxionary |
there's a couple parts of minetest_game that i think are the best of the breed for what they do, i'd love if depending on them didn't require a full dependency on mtg |
| 01:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> various reasons, some being mods outside of a game might not be the best/make sense/etc. might break/override mod soups that have made changes, would also probably confuse people who are trying to get xyz mod for mtg working on other game like mineclone2, etc |
| 01:31 |
fluxionary |
"mod soup" yeah that's certainly a thing |
| 01:31 |
fluxionary |
(no sarcasm) |
| 01:32 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> anyways, always recommend buckaroos auto updating broken down mtg mods for people wanting to submodule them into projects, etc |
| 01:32 |
fluxionary |
i feel like mtg could be broken up as a meta-repo pointing to other git repos which are "feature frozen" the same way mtg is now? |
| 01:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> its essentially already done, see above msg |
| 01:33 |
fluxionary |
i saw it after i wrote what i did |
| 01:33 |
fluxionary |
ok nice |
| 01:33 |
fluxionary |
link? |
| 01:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> see dreambuilder |
| 01:34 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> https://github.com/minetest-game |
| 01:34 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> person who starts with a t that hosts git.minetest.land had one, but it got abandoned |
| 01:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> name escapes me atm |
| 01:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> tacotexmex |
| 01:35 |
fluxionary |
oh, i know them |
| 01:35 |
fluxionary |
well, i'm aware of them, they give good comments |
| 01:36 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> anyways, buckaroos one is kept up to date now, so its what most people use |
| 01:36 |
fluxionary |
jonathon: but what if you're not using dreambuilder? |
| 01:36 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> what? |
| 01:37 |
fluxionary |
jonathon: https://github.com/minetest-game is the relevant thing then? it doesn't have a metarepo, but i guess that's where you can pull in individual mods |
| 01:37 |
fluxionary |
but why aren't the mods in the CDB? |
| 01:37 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> yeah, i was saying see dreambuilder since it uses it, because i could remember the url off hand |
| 01:38 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> *couldnt |
| 01:38 |
fluxionary |
ah, so it exists, somewhere, i'll look |
| 01:38 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> i mean <https://github.com/minetest-game > |
| 01:39 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> > but why aren't the mods in the CDB? . > various reasons, some being mods outside of a game might not be the best/make sense/etc. might break/override mod soups that have made changes, would also probably confuse people who are trying to get xyz mod for mtg working on other game like mineclone2, etc |
| 01:42 |
fluxionary |
confusion is obligatory when multiple versions of the same mod are allowed in the cdb |
| 01:44 |
Guest54 |
well, they kinda must be (as long as they are compatible), as the dependency system can not really do a “this mod provides this thing, but has another technical name” unless i am mistaken |
| 01:45 |
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| 01:48 |
Guest54 |
fluxionary if you want to have fun regarding this, upload a mod from mineclone2 to unbreak every mod that the next mineclone2 release will break. i.e. just change the texture names back so that stuff like additional furniture works or so. |
| 01:49 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> your missing one, very, very small detail, it would need to be approved |
| 01:51 |
Guest54 |
if i am not mistaken, the mcl prefix was free for all, but i guess the particular modname may not be up for grabs. so are you saying that if mineclone2 breaks a mod or texture pack on cdb (as it is planned to do), it would not be allowed to provide a fix by overriding the modname with the old version? |
| 01:51 |
Guest54 |
i mean in this case it does not matter much, as you can just provide a texture pack or mod with a different name. |
| 01:52 |
Guest54 |
but what if someone, e.g. wanted to patch the stupid thing where lapis turned into blue dye because the author of a PR could not be bothered to use item name aliases? |
| 01:52 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> im not commenting on any policy decisions, only pointing out that such a thing would need to be approved |
| 01:53 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> i.e. that any content needs to be approved |
| 01:53 |
Guest54 |
that is indeed trivially true. |
| 01:54 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> you can infer based on me pointing out that fact and being on the cdb team that we might have a discussion about such a package however. at this time im not saying anything official |
| 01:55 |
Guest54 |
is there any chance that there comes a policy “do not break mods that rely on your API *names* just because you like to shuffle deck chairs on the titanic?” one day? |
| 01:56 |
Guest54 |
because almost all breakage that i can remember mcl2 caused that was not limited to itself was changing names of items and textures around randomly |
| 01:56 |
Guest54 |
and i kinda think forcing mod authors to provide aliases for the old items is not *too* onerous |
| 01:56 |
Guest54 |
(if there are mods on cdb that depend on it) |
| 01:58 |
Guest54 |
otherwise, as long as you can not pin your mod dependencies to one specific version of something it will break again and again if the upstream mod does the deck chair thing |
| 01:59 |
Guest54 |
i mean if “it breaks stuff needlessly” was a reason for rejection, i guess it would have been done already, so my spider sense tells me such a rule does not exist |
| 02:00 |
Guest54 |
hmm, maybe that needs a test setup. |
| 02:01 |
Guest54 |
after all, you can't expect reviewers to load all dependents |
| 02:01 |
Guest54 |
or to even know them |
| 02:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> note, outside of policy, ill just say this, uploading and old version of the game mod wholesale is stupid af when your trying to fix stuff, because you yourself would be breaking stuff. to expand on this, when a mod that has the same name as a game one is in mods, it overrides the game one. say the game one has some new api, etc, yours wouldnt have it, thus breaking anything that depends on that game mod |
| 02:04 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> as far as updates go, ive long pointed out various issues that can occur from cdb model of one approval and then you can do whatever you want. such examples include a person for example making a mod, submitting it through cdb, then changing it to malware after the fact, adding copyrighted assets after the fact, etc |
| 02:04 |
Guest54 |
well, all the cases i can point to were just item and texture renames. in which case uploading the old version actually makes sense, but i guess you are correct, it would be a problem sooner or later. |
| 02:07 |
Guest54 |
well, there was the whole mineclone5 thing, i forgot about it lol. that was basically “upload everything and change it incompatibly”. but the breakage was limited to mcl5 itself & people knew what they were in for. |
| 02:08 |
Guest54 |
ig we'll have to wait for a case where it actually matters. |
| 02:08 |
Guest54 |
and find out how to educate people on not breaking stuff |
| 02:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> all i way say to that regard is that mineclone5 is no longer listed on cdb, additionally the project has been abandoned |
| 02:08 |
Guest54 |
well, the changes have mostly been upstreamed i think. |
| 02:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> the content yeah, but (not i didnt read specifically into it), most of it was imported in a non breaking way |
| 02:10 |
Guest54 |
in any case, i wonder what to do about the “future versions of software are incompatible with itself” problem. it is not limited to minetest. |
| 02:10 |
Guest54 |
i mean to minetest mods. minetest is amazing in terms of long-term compat! |
| 02:11 |
Guest54 |
like despite the breakage, many many projects are much worse |
| 02:11 |
Guest54 |
openra for example simply can't load savegames from previous versions, as savegames are basically replays of the game state |
| 02:12 |
Guest54 |
and has AFAIK no provisions for auto-upgrading of maps if unit names or something like that change, it is all done manually |
| 02:13 |
Guest54 |
and renpy save game format is just python pickle hehe |
| 02:13 |
Guest54 |
(don't load savegames from the internet) |
| 02:15 |
Guest54 |
btw, if anyone has any idea how to limit the map griefing on pre-loaded maps if one is not using singlenode, please tell me. yes i know about chunksize=1, but it does not work in this case, because of railcorridors. |
| 02:16 |
Guest54 |
i have a map download from an old and interesting server (clamity) and every time i load it into minetest, every post-generation hook is run again and griefs what is built on the map. |
| 02:16 |
Guest54 |
you can briefly see the cool stuff when a mapblock is loaded on the client, before it gets replaced |
| 02:17 |
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| 08:45 |
Blockhead256[m] |
I'm not sure why you wouldn't just control the environment to use only singlenode, maybe in case you wanted new terrain that was part of the original server's seed? |
| 08:45 |
Blockhead256[m] |
anyway it shouldn't be *too* difficult to use an offline tool to mark areas not to be regenerated by the map generator from your world downloads. I just don't think that tool exists yet |
| 09:17 |
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| 11:03 |
BuckarooBanzai |
the mapgen only runs if there is one ore more mapblocks in that chunk that aren't generated (or just `ignore` nodes) yet. But yeah: setting singlenode on that map would fix that |
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| 15:36 |
Guest54 |
Blockhead256[m] BuckarooBanzai i do indeed have the seed of clamity and the map download and would like to resurrect it |
| 15:36 |
Guest54 |
i just don't know how to actually make the post generate hooks not run in that case |
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| 15:53 |
Guest54 |
why do so many people call portals in games non-euclidean? e.g. here https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11093 |
| 15:54 |
Guest54 |
these camera tricks are not making anything non-euclidean as i understand it |
| 15:55 |
Guest54 |
non-euclidean spaces look *completely* different when rendered |
| 15:56 |
Guest54 |
like in hyperrogue |
| 15:59 |
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| 16:02 |
Guest54 |
rubenwardy you retitled issue #11093 recently, maybe you want to change the “non-euclidean” thing to something appropriate? like the bug reporter obviously isn't asking for some kind of curved space where parallel lines diverge, but for some kind of euclidean-like regions with a transition |
| 16:02 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11093 -- Portals / anywhere door (Non Euclidean) |
| 16:02 |
Guest54 |
i am not a mathematician, but i think “euclidean manifold” might be appropriate |
| 16:06 |
Guest54 |
i believe this might explain it to people that confuse geometry and topology etc. https://zenorogue.medium.com/non-euclidean-geometry-and-games-fb46989320d4 |
| 16:06 |
Guest54 |
> Bolyai, Lobachevsky, and Gauss have created a new world, where all Euclid’s postulates hold except the fifth, thus showing that the fifth postulate could not be proven from the other ones. Since Euclid believed that such a thing could not exist, it has been called by Gauss non-Euclidean geometry. |
| 16:07 |
Guest54 |
> An easy way to tell whether a game uses truly non-Euclidean geometry is to look for rectangles. In non-Euclidean geometry there are no rectangles, anything that looks a bit like a rectangle actually has its angles smaller than 90 degrees, or its edges are curved. So, if you see rectangles, the game is (probably) not non-Euclidean. |
| 16:08 |
Guest54 |
> Surgery changes the topology of the space, but it does not change its geometry. |
| 16:10 |
Guest54 |
btw, in case the poster *actually* wants non-euclidean geometry (which i doubt to the strongest possible extent) i believe the issue can be closed as infeasible. 3d non-euclidean space is simply not appropriate. |
| 16:10 |
Guest54 |
(for minetest) |
| 16:11 |
Guest54 |
and there already seems to be some game doing it https://github.com/Ralith/hypermine/wiki/Gallery |
| 16:12 |
Guest54 |
oh wow, this is pure gold: https://github.com/Ralith/hypermine/wiki/Theory |
| 16:12 |
Guest54 |
> The world of Hypermine can be understood as hyperbolic 3-space with the order-4 dodecahedral honeycomb as the underlying honeycomb. The cells of this honeycomb are dodecahedra whose sides have a dihedral angle of 90 degrees, with the angles at each vertex within a side also being 90 degrees. |
| 16:13 |
Guest54 |
> The dual of this honeycomb is the order-5 cubic honeycomb, and the cells of the dual honeycomb make up the chunks of the Hypermine world. |
| 16:26 |
Guest54 |
celeron55 given the forum being slow, have you considered using something like varnish? https://varnish-cache.org/intro/index.html#intro |
| 16:37 |
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| 16:51 |
Guest54 |
more unicode text rendering on node surfaces: https://mister-muffin.de/p/F0am.png |
| 16:54 |
Guest54 |
same text on the nodes as before, but now with kerning (breaks ascii and shift jis art, obviously) https://mister-muffin.de/p/sD25.png |
| 16:56 |
celeron55 |
i can see the text based game already coming |
| 16:56 |
celeron55 |
and no, i don't need varnish, i just need to upgrade the server to a non-potato |
| 16:57 |
Guest54 |
well, varnish will make potato more reliant if you are smart about caching keys, but i get it |
| 16:57 |
Guest54 |
reliable, sorry |
| 16:58 |
Guest54 |
celeron55 here is a text based riddle (when a user does not load any font) https://mister-muffin.de/p/webE.png |
| 16:59 |
Guest54 |
anyway, am i missing anything big about text rendering? pexin made a comment about the lines being close together last night, so i will probably add line height setting |
| 16:59 |
Guest54 |
or rather, line-spacing |
| 16:59 |
Blockhead256[m] |
Tageszeit geändert |
| 17:00 |
Guest54 |
in germany we don't say “i have adjusted the clock to the correct time”, we say “tageszeit geändert” and i think that's beautiful |
| 17:02 |
Blockhead256[m] |
"Time of day changed." is the English text in Minetest.. what you wrote is nowhere near a literal translation |
| 17:02 |
Guest54 |
we also say words like heizölrückstoßabdämpfung or malzwhiskyduftproben or mobilfunkgespräch |
| 17:03 |
Guest54 |
i am of joking Blockhead256[m] |
| 17:03 |
Blockhead256[m] |
furchtbar! |
| 17:03 |
Blockhead256[m] |
nah but those compound words are not so scary if you can actually read German |
| 17:03 |
Guest54 |
although i think mobilfunkgespräch is a real word |
| 17:03 |
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| 17:04 |
Guest54 |
i found heizölrückstoßabdämpfung when i was looking for phrases to test umlaut rendering hehe |
| 17:04 |
Guest54 |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangram |
| 17:04 |
celeron55 |
google translate can translate mobilfunkgespräch in german to matkapuhelinpuhelu in finnish. that's nice |
| 17:05 |
Guest54 |
here are more examples https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangramm |
| 17:05 |
Guest54 |
is finnish even more agglutinative than german? |
| 17:05 |
celeron55 |
not sure. i guess it's similar |
| 17:06 |
celeron55 |
well wikipedia says finnish is one of the most typical agglutinative languages |
| 17:07 |
Guest54 |
can you beat Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz in length with a real word though? ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rinderkennzeichnungs-_und_Rindfleischetikettierungs%C3%BCberwachungsaufgaben%C3%BCbertragungsgesetz |
| 17:07 |
Guest54 |
> literally, "Cattle marking and beef labeling supervision duties delegation law" |
| 17:07 |
Guest54 |
like in german it becomes a joke when it is so long |
| 17:07 |
Guest54 |
like no one talks like that |
| 17:08 |
Guest54 |
(but apparently some people in parliaments write like that, hehe) |
| 17:08 |
celeron55 |
let me try to translate that myself from the english version as googele translate is unable to |
| 17:08 |
Guest54 |
and i wonder, having seen long finnish words, if they are joking about it being possible or if it is in daily usage |
| 17:09 |
celeron55 |
karjanmerkinnän- ja naudanlihanmerkinnänvalvontatehtävienvaltuutuslaki |
| 17:09 |
celeron55 |
that's it |
| 17:09 |
celeron55 |
goes very naturally |
| 17:09 |
Guest54 |
the thing is, in german, people would rather use the long name |
| 17:09 |
Guest54 |
Gesetz zur Übertragung der Aufgaben für die Überwachung der Rinderkennzeichnung und Rindfleischetikettierung |
| 17:10 |
Guest54 |
which is literally how the english language would do it i guess |
| 17:10 |
celeron55 |
in legalese and official publications we will use such a term like that, but in casual speaking usually not |
| 17:10 |
Guest54 |
like if you would talk about it, you'd not use the long word, but the even longer broken-up compound |
| 17:10 |
Guest54 |
i see, so it's prob similar to german? |
| 17:10 |
celeron55 |
there would be a shorthand of some sort |
| 17:10 |
celeron55 |
for actually speaking about it, or say, blogging |
| 17:10 |
Guest54 |
the abbreviation here is RkReÜAÜG lol |
| 17:11 |
Guest54 |
like no one would say that |
| 17:11 |
Guest54 |
i mean it's obviously the longest example i found |
| 17:11 |
celeron55 |
or, probably not really a shorthand but more like a nickname |
| 17:11 |
Guest54 |
oh i see |
| 17:13 |
Guest54 |
celeron55 anything i should keep in mind for rendering finnish text? or is it simply like all the other latin-like left-to-right languages? |
| 17:13 |
Guest54 |
arabic will be hardest (letter shapes depend on surrounding letters) |
| 17:13 |
Guest54 |
s/languages/scripts/ |
| 17:13 |
Guest54 |
also i will not do any line-breaking, users should do it themselves |
| 17:14 |
Guest54 |
i mean not any automatic line-breaking |
| 17:14 |
celeron55 |
yeah nothing special. really the only special characters in addition to english are åöä/ÅÖÄ and those are generally done simply by adding the stuff above a, o, A or O. If they don't fit, then you might want to make the base letter smaller but that's not ideal |
| 17:14 |
Guest54 |
oh, i have actually done that quite stupidly |
| 17:14 |
celeron55 |
i believe that's how latin languages usually work |
| 17:15 |
Guest54 |
basically, if i detect a combining character after a normal character i superimpose them |
| 17:16 |
Guest54 |
you can see it here (scroll down to combining characters): https://mister-muffin.de/p/Lh5L.png |
| 17:16 |
celeron55 |
and we do type them as whatever the unicode characters on that line that i typed was. i believe those don't use the combining characters but rather the special versions of the base characters |
| 17:16 |
Guest54 |
it's stupid, but it works, so it can't be that stupid |
| 17:16 |
Guest54 |
i can render both, composed and decomposed |
| 17:16 |
celeron55 |
it looks ok |
| 17:16 |
Guest54 |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode_equivalence |
| 17:17 |
Guest54 |
ok cool |
| 17:17 |
Guest54 |
> the code point U+006E (the Latin lowercase "n") followed by U+0303 (the combining tilde "◌̃") is defined by Unicode to be canonically equivalent to the single code point U+00F1 (the lowercase letter "ñ" of the Spanish alphabet). |
| 17:17 |
Guest54 |
both don't look exactly the same with my approach, but good enough |
| 17:18 |
Guest54 |
like you see it is the same letter |
| 17:18 |
celeron55 |
i wouldn't expect it to be a big deal. i'd assume it just looks like a slightly different font then |
| 17:18 |
Guest54 |
it's actually a big deal because i have to know the general class of each codepoint |
| 17:19 |
Guest54 |
because for example when you reverse text you have to put all the combining characters on the other side and so on |
| 17:19 |
celeron55 |
ah yes of course. i was only thinking about the rendering |
| 17:19 |
Guest54 |
well, in the rendering i simply don't advance the “cursor” if there is a combining mark to be rendered |
| 17:20 |
Guest54 |
obviously it is wrong, but it also works well enough for now |
| 17:20 |
Guest54 |
bidi text is the big thing not working yet |
| 17:21 |
Guest54 |
do signs in minetest do anything interesting i might want to support? |
| 17:22 |
celeron55 |
i'm not aware of them doing anything interesting |
| 17:22 |
Guest54 |
well default signs don't |
| 17:22 |
celeron55 |
then again there are many implementations |
| 17:22 |
Guest54 |
i mean like signslib or so |
| 17:23 |
celeron55 |
if i were you i'd take a look a the screenshots available here https://content.minetest.net/packages/?q=sign |
| 17:23 |
celeron55 |
at* |
| 17:23 |
Guest54 |
ok will do |
| 17:24 |
celeron55 |
seems like there are 4 mods on there |
| 17:24 |
Guest54 |
this claims unicode support: https://content.minetest.net/packages/Pyrollo/display_modpack/ |
| 17:24 |
celeron55 |
the others do something else |
| 17:24 |
celeron55 |
wait, 5 |
| 17:26 |
Guest54 |
haha it has a similar utf8 decoding function to mine, but the comment says “not tested” |
| 17:27 |
celeron55 |
https://github.com/pyrollo/display_modpack/tree/master/font_metro |
| 17:27 |
celeron55 |
looks like this is the font it uses |
| 17:27 |
Guest54 |
thx |
| 17:28 |
celeron55 |
and somewhere in here is the code that's able to utilize the font? not sure https://github.com/pyrollo/display_modpack/tree/master/font_api |
| 17:28 |
Guest54 |
well, that's just a bunch of PNGs in a texmod trenchcoat |
| 17:28 |
celeron55 |
yeah, it's super simple |
| 17:28 |
Guest54 |
well, i render pixels to a file |
| 17:28 |
Guest54 |
i just wanted to know my approach can not do something that the texmod approach can |
| 17:29 |
Guest54 |
i won't do the texmod thing, otherwise i'll have a single texture for each codepoint |
| 17:29 |
Guest54 |
that's … too much |
| 17:29 |
Guest54 |
and also makes the fonts huge |
| 17:30 |
celeron55 |
i've made a utf-8 decoder myself a long time ago, i'm trying to remember what for it might have been and where i might find it... |
| 17:30 |
Guest54 |
utf8 is truly a clever encoding |
| 17:30 |
celeron55 |
yeah i do remember it made a lot of sense |
| 17:31 |
Guest54 |
like it's one of these times where “some talented person made it on a napkin” is something i believe ;) |
| 17:31 |
Guest54 |
celeron55 i made this tool: http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/bin/unicode |
| 17:31 |
Guest54 |
; unicode 1f600-1f603 |
| 17:31 |
Guest54 |
1F600 😀 1F601 😁 1F602 😂 1F603 😃 |
| 17:31 |
Guest54 |
it helps if you want to see codepoints in terminal |
| 17:34 |
Guest54 |
hmm, i am thinking of stuff like text shadows and so on but the more i think i say people should do whatever they want with the text once it is pixels |
| 17:36 |
celeron55 |
maybe make a separate text effects mod? |
| 17:37 |
Guest54 |
well the first thing i want to work on after publishing the unicode text renderer is actually making the engine better for generated textures. |
| 17:37 |
celeron55 |
well that seems smart too |
| 17:39 |
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Desour joined #minetest |
| 17:47 |
Guest54 |
as i have mentioned previously, for the kind of textures i am generating you can get very small files with deflated TGA. you can, for the general case, get smaller files using a good PNG optimizer, but even on a good machine that can take multiple seconds while deflate is instantaneous (and you probably will not call optipng from minetest anyway). |
| 17:47 |
Guest54 |
so my plan is to make minetest support tga.z as a hack. the real work is not in doing that, but it making sure that any older client gets a non-deflated version. incidentally, this would make mcl_maps faster and reduce traffic for all mineclone2 servers. |
| 17:48 |
Guest54 |
it's one of these hacks that if executed well are basically invisible from the outside |
| 17:51 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner i think this issue can be closed, the engine changed sending dynamic media from blocking to non-blocking, but i provided a fix to mcl2 and mcl5: https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues/3319 |
| 17:57 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner, this can probably also be closed https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues/2876 see here https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/12906 |
| 17:58 |
Guest54 |
same for https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues/3137same for |
| 17:58 |
Guest54 |
i mean https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues/3137 |
| 18:01 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> awesome Guest54, thanks for the heads up. i've added a reference and comment so we can retest this post release |
| 18:02 |
MinetestBot |
[git] Desour -> minetest/minetest: Fix safeLoadFile() skipping 2 chars too much from the shebang (#13310) 2180dc1 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/2180dc14ef802961d50d5e5f7fccd2d3a2b9f647 (2023-03-27T18:01:05Z) |
| 18:03 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner well you can test it right now |
| 18:04 |
MinetestBot |
[git] Desour -> minetest/minetest: Fix core.item_eat for same-item replace_with_item and split stacks be… ea095d3 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/ea095d3f69e7aadbcdbe5294e5dfc42ba2fe93bf (2023-03-27T18:02:23Z) |
| 18:04 |
MinetestBot |
[git] Desour -> minetest/minetest: Always build locale files in CMAKE_SOURCE_DIR if building RUN_IN_PLAC… 0f496f1 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/0f496f1ed25a85d67709b25260aa304b901d0903 (2023-03-27T18:02:48Z) |
| 18:05 |
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kamdard joined #minetest |
| 18:05 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> "AncientMariner i think this issue can be closed, the engine changed sending dynamic media from blocking to non-blocking, but i provided a fix to mcl2 and mcl5: https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues/3319" is this due to go live with 5.7? |
| 18:06 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and in regards to this fix, i'm assuming it was already in our code already, so is the engine change the one that will fix it? |
| 18:06 |
Guest54 |
no, the fix was in mcl2 |
| 18:06 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> this bug was raised 2 months ago and on master |
| 18:06 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> when was it fixed? |
| 18:07 |
Guest54 |
a year ago or so, ask the submitter for mcl version and minetest versions |
| 18:07 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it will likely be a master version, they have raised master specific stuff frequently and play on a master server |
| 18:07 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> so i'm not sure the fix is working in this case |
| 18:07 |
Guest54 |
well someone might have refucktored it again |
| 18:08 |
Guest54 |
usually people like to delete code they do not understand |
| 18:08 |
Guest54 |
it's basically the one thing every bad dev has in common :P |
| 18:08 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> oof |
| 18:08 |
Guest54 |
i'll look at it |
| 18:08 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i'm not a big fan of comments, but ideally we need context comments in, and people need to leave stuff they don't fully understand |
| 18:08 |
Guest54 |
background was like this: in minetest 5.3 dynamic media sending was blocking, in minetest 5.4 dynamic media sending was blocking and required a callback (a weird thing for a blocking function to do, so the callback lizzy added did nothing), in minetest 5.5 dynamic media suddenly became non-blocking and this lead to the race condition of the map |
| 18:08 |
Guest54 |
texture not being sent yet when the map was in player hands |
| 18:09 |
Guest54 |
so i fixed it by writing code that handles all three cases, i can imagine someone might have replaced that with a “simpler” version haha |
| 18:09 |
Guest54 |
lets see |
| 18:09 |
Guest54 |
if that is the case |
| 18:09 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> (i hope you're sitting comfortably, there will inevitably be a commit message that could annoy) |
| 18:10 |
Guest54 |
lol why |
| 18:10 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> always the way |
| 18:10 |
Guest54 |
is it ”fix bug” or “break things” |
| 18:10 |
Guest54 |
or ”it works now” |
| 18:10 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> usually, when i'm thinking "why the fuck did they do that?" and i check git history, it usually gets worse |
| 18:10 |
Guest54 |
the worst commit messages are the ones coming after a big feature that just say ”fix rarely occuring bug” without any details |
| 18:10 |
Guest54 |
haha yes |
| 18:11 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> a lot of people that say they are refactoring don't understand refactoring. they usually semantically change the code, when in reality, you shouldn't. you rename vars, pull out functions etc. |
| 18:12 |
Guest54 |
haha i found the part where someone changed the json file to not be on a single line |
| 18:12 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> only make those changes consciously |
| 18:12 |
Guest54 |
and then afterwards realized it does not work because the code only reads the first line of the json file |
| 18:12 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> ah, i think i know it |
| 18:12 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i handed them the fix |
| 18:12 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> so it reads multiline |
| 18:12 |
Guest54 |
well, the reason it is on a single line is |
| 18:12 |
Guest54 |
lizzy did not know about the multiline *all |
| 18:12 |
Guest54 |
and it's a generated file after all |
| 18:13 |
Guest54 |
btw, the solution is shitty IMO, the real solution would be for each node definiton to contain the map color |
| 18:13 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i think that's fair |
| 18:13 |
Guest54 |
then you don't need the pregeneration step |
| 18:13 |
Guest54 |
and also instant compat with any mod willing to add that |
| 18:13 |
Guest54 |
like _mcl_maps_colors or so |
| 18:13 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i think often we enrich data seperately when it should be on the data definition |
| 18:13 |
Guest54 |
indeed |
| 18:14 |
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kamdard joined #minetest |
| 18:15 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i'm trying to be at peace with the "i'd do it differently". i now try to do the "i'd do it differently, but i don't have time and this doesn't make me want to murder anybody" |
| 18:15 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and fortunately me brain forgets and moves on |
| 18:16 |
Guest54 |
someone did indeed do weird stuff with mcl_maps, and replaced all tabs with spaces in the process, so the diff is shit |
| 18:16 |
Guest54 |
or the other way around |
| 18:16 |
Guest54 |
Michieal |
| 18:18 |
Guest54 |
wow this is horrible |
| 18:18 |
Guest54 |
just like you expected |
| 18:19 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> yeah, he should have reformatted separately from the change too |
| 18:19 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it's a nightmare to review |
| 18:20 |
Guest54 |
this is amazing |
| 18:20 |
Guest54 |
the correct way is to reject this bullshit you know |
| 18:20 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> so that file changed, and the *all got added at review stage |
| 18:20 |
Guest54 |
like tell them to make a new non-bullshit patch |
| 18:21 |
Guest54 |
i can't even see what was changed |
| 18:21 |
Guest54 |
because EVERYTHING changed |
| 18:21 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i don't mind reformatting files to human readable, as long as it don't break things |
| 18:21 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but yeah, changes and format should be done different commits |
| 18:21 |
Guest54 |
reformatting because some poser with a grudge hates tabs or spaces should never be done, it breaks git blame |
| 18:22 |
Guest54 |
and like who tells you the person is not putting functional changes in the ”reformat” |
| 18:24 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner do you know about “git rebase -i”? |
| 18:25 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i do, and have used it in the past |
| 18:25 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> some contributors aren't the most confident with git |
| 18:25 |
Guest54 |
well, tell people making shit PRs to use it i guess? |
| 18:25 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> some, you'll ask to fix things, and the world explodes |
| 18:26 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> some people's git skills make me anxious |
| 18:26 |
Guest54 |
hahahahahahahaha https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/pulls/2897#issuecomment-48022 |
| 18:26 |
Guest54 |
> ERROR[Main]: generateImage(): Could not load image "mcl_maps_map_texture_5.tga" while building texture; Creating a dummy image |
| 18:26 |
Guest54 |
> that's completely on the "magic" of dynamically_add_media() -- an engine function. |
| 18:30 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner i am *pretty* sure Michieal lied about this being an engine issue, but i can't say 100%. |
| 18:33 |
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| 18:33 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner as expected, someone did something with mcl_maps and it used to work and now it does not. i blame everyone believing “this is an engine issue”. |
| 18:34 |
appguru |
Guest54: Agreed. A statement like "that's completely on the 'magic' of dynamically_add_media() -- an engine function." doesn't exactly look believable to me |
| 18:34 |
appguru |
it rather seems to imply that the author hasn't understood how dynamic media is implemented, otherwise they would be able to pinpoint the issue |
| 18:34 |
appguru |
what seems most likely is that they introduced a good old race condition - relying on the media before it has arrived |
| 18:34 |
Guest54 |
well, i used to understand it and then they changed it and then i needed to understand it again haha |
| 18:35 |
appguru |
(where "they" is Michieal, not the core devs) |
| 18:35 |
Guest54 |
well, the code that was changed (in the item frame rewrite, LOL) was the code i wrote that handled the case perfectly |
| 18:35 |
Guest54 |
so after it was changed, it's suddenly an engine issue hehe |
| 18:35 |
appguru |
This got to be a hecking joke. |
| 18:36 |
appguru |
They are calling dynamic_add_media with an empty callback (function()end). |
| 18:36 |
Guest54 |
nah, it's common for people to talk out of their ass using technobabble |
| 18:36 |
Guest54 |
you read the joke until the end please |
| 18:36 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> technobabble never dies |
| 18:36 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> to be honest, when i read "engine issue", i see it as a euthemism for i don't fully understand it |
| 18:36 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it's been done by many folk |
| 18:36 |
Guest54 |
nah, there are enough engine issues |
| 18:36 |
appguru |
wait, perhaps I judged too early |
| 18:36 |
Guest54 |
appguru you did, indeed |
| 18:37 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and usually there isn't some detail that says this function should do x, and in this context it does y, i have raised a ticket here |
| 18:37 |
Guest54 |
i only fixed that thing after like 2 weeks of whining from other people who could not be bothered to fix it |
| 18:37 |
appguru |
this is inside the lol, I retract my judgement |
| 18:37 |
Guest54 |
the lol |
| 18:37 |
Guest54 |
the last kind of technobabble i saw was when github accidentally (lol) uploaded their ssh private key to github (lol) |
| 18:38 |
Guest54 |
commenters on the orange website were like “why didn't they use an HSM for their private key” and others were INSISTING it is not possible |
| 18:38 |
Guest54 |
of course the ones who claimed it was impossibru could be proven wrong by looking at the documentation of openssh server |
| 18:39 |
Guest54 |
it's the insistence that gets me |
| 18:39 |
Guest54 |
like how can people be so sure about stuff if they never even read the docs? |
| 18:39 |
Guest54 |
or the code, for that matter |
| 18:40 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner if the contributor has done other stuff, i'd suggest to be extra careful about “rewrites” lol |
| 18:41 |
appguru |
Guest54: Still it seems to be the race condition I conjured |
| 18:41 |
appguru |
There's a globalstep which updates the HUD |
| 18:42 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> of course. most problems don't justify a rewrite |
| 18:43 |
Guest54 |
unless you don't understand the existing code, that obviously justifies it hahaha |
| 18:45 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner: review hint for https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/pulls/3454/files … calling register_oxidation_abm() is entirely superfluous as far as i can see, you can just have the group if i am not mistaken |
| 18:46 |
appguru |
ok now I think I finally figured it out |
| 18:46 |
appguru |
my conjecture was flawed |
| 18:47 |
appguru |
the real issue is that they don't seem to have understood the new 5.5 dynamic media API |
| 18:47 |
appguru |
specifically "`callback`: function with arguments `name`, which is a player name" |
| 18:47 |
appguru |
that is, if *any* client has received the media (and they are sending it to *all clients*), the player holding the map will have the HUD image appear etc etc |
| 18:48 |
appguru |
what they should really be waiting for is (1) the player holding the map receiving the media (perhaps they should even only send it to that player) or (2) for item frames, all players having received the media |
| 18:48 |
Guest54 |
well, in this case i must say i was lazy |
| 18:48 |
Guest54 |
obviously i sent all maps to all players |
| 18:48 |
appguru |
I implemented #2 in https://github.com/appgurueu/epidermis/blob/master/dynamic_add_media.lua |
| 18:48 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2 -- Burned wood |
| 18:49 |
Guest54 |
it is funny though, isn't it? |
| 18:50 |
Guest54 |
as the code was waiting for the player receiving the media |
| 18:50 |
Guest54 |
before it was changed |
| 18:50 |
Guest54 |
unless i am mistaken |
| 18:50 |
Guest54 |
appguru sending all maps to all players is the cheap way of making sure everyone has a copy or is there a downside beyond OMG HAX and traffic? |
| 18:51 |
appguru |
well, OMG HAX and traffic are all I can think of right now |
| 18:51 |
appguru |
and the fact that it makes using the callback *slightly* harder (you have to check which player got the map) |
| 18:51 |
Desour |
to me it looks like the old code has exactly the same issue. are you sure you didn't just not get the error because you only tested in singleplayer? |
| 18:52 |
appguru |
yeah, the old code either had the same issue or was never tested under 5.5 + multiplayer |
| 18:52 |
Guest54 |
probably the latter |
| 18:52 |
Guest54 |
(though i can remember it working) |
| 18:53 |
Guest54 |
maybe i just didn't race well enough |
| 18:53 |
Guest54 |
appguru do you have a writeup on how this works? |
| 18:53 |
Guest54 |
like does xmaps maybe have the same issue? |
| 18:53 |
appguru |
Guest54: what exactly? this issue? |
| 18:54 |
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est31 joined #minetest |
| 18:54 |
Guest54 |
appguru could you look here? https://git.minetest.land/erlehmann/xmaps/src/branch/master/init.lua#L386 |
| 18:55 |
Guest54 |
i wonder if it is racy now |
| 18:55 |
appguru |
yeah, looks like it has the same issue - sends to all players but completely ignores which players received it |
| 18:55 |
Guest54 |
maybe i am a fraud! |
| 18:55 |
Guest54 |
well, all players received it when the callback returns, am i doing it wrong? |
| 18:55 |
appguru |
the callback is called *for each player* |
| 18:55 |
Guest54 |
oh noes |
| 18:55 |
Guest54 |
this is horrible |
| 18:55 |
appguru |
yes lmao |
| 18:56 |
appguru |
it is fine for the player with the best connection though lol |
| 18:56 |
Guest54 |
like it's horrible API design, but it is horrible i did not look into it |
| 18:56 |
appguru |
notably it is fine for singleplayer |
| 18:57 |
Guest54 |
wait what if someone joins after i called dynamic send media |
| 18:57 |
Guest54 |
https://github.com/appgurueu/epidermis/blob/master/dynamic_add_media.lua#L27 |
| 18:57 |
Guest54 |
lol just kick players haha |
| 18:58 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner so, to recap: no one was right, everyone was wrong, except appguru. |
| 18:58 |
appguru |
I was also wrong until I was right lmao |
| 18:59 |
appguru |
but it is basically a race condition |
| 18:59 |
Guest54 |
TL;DR no one is right, everyone is wrong. |
| 18:59 |
Guest54 |
but michieal is especially wrong for claiming it needs an engine change |
| 19:00 |
Guest54 |
appguru should i used modlib in xmaps tell me or is this overkill |
| 19:00 |
appguru |
modlib doesn't really help with this, you can take a look at the epidermis code - it hardly uses modlib |
| 19:01 |
Guest54 |
well i know how to iterate over players |
| 19:01 |
Guest54 |
or i think i know haha |
| 19:11 |
Guest54 |
thanks appguru! |
| 19:12 |
Guest54 |
appguru just to be clear on this: you need to iterate over every player that is connected, but new players get the texture on join? |
| 19:13 |
appguru |
Guest54: correct (if the options are set accordingly) |
| 19:13 |
Guest54 |
wdym |
| 19:13 |
Guest54 |
explain pls |
| 19:14 |
appguru |
"If `ephemeral`=false and `to_player` is unset the file is added to the media sent to clients on startup, this means the media will appear even on old clients if they rejoin the server." |
| 19:14 |
appguru |
from the Lua API docs |
| 19:14 |
Guest54 |
why should ephemeral ever be true for maps lol |
| 19:14 |
appguru |
I should really contribute better dynamic_add_media docs to mt_docs once I find time lol |
| 19:14 |
Guest54 |
well, i would use it for live updating maps |
| 19:14 |
Guest54 |
but i fear it makes RAM go brrrrr |
| 19:15 |
appguru |
it does, there's no dropping |
| 19:15 |
appguru |
(client-side at least) |
| 19:15 |
Guest54 |
yes which is why my maps are not the live-kind |
| 19:15 |
Desour |
if you set ephemeral=false, the client will cache it in media cache (afaik). if your map textures are temporary, you don't want this |
| 19:15 |
Guest54 |
i mean players have asked for live updating maps for a while |
| 19:15 |
appguru |
the current docs aren't *wrong* or *too unspecific*, but they don't really help protect people from pitfalls and don't nudge them in the right direction / help with implementing something such as waiting for all players to receive the media |
| 19:16 |
Guest54 |
it should have been dynamic_send_media_yes_i_really_know_what_i_am_doing() |
| 19:16 |
appguru |
Desour: I'm wondering whether ideally caching and add to startup media should be decoupled |
| 19:16 |
appguru |
That would require clientside changes though |
| 19:17 |
appguru |
(clients would have to handle a flag that tells them that some media transferred at startup is not meant to be cached by them) |
| 19:17 |
appguru |
because currently it is otherwise impossible to have ephemeral dynamic media e.g. on an entity without new players potentially receiving the entity before they receive the dynamic media |
| 19:18 |
Desour |
some API to change all the join-sent media (including removing files) would be nice |
| 19:20 |
Desour |
what you currently can do is send the new players the media dynamically and ephemeral when they join. so being able to delay client join would also suffice |
| 19:20 |
appguru |
yeah |
| 19:20 |
appguru |
bye! |
| 19:21 |
Desour |
bye! |
| 19:21 |
|
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| 19:27 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> the problem with dynamic_send_media_yes_i_really_know_what_i_am_doing() is it will never be called |
| 19:27 |
Guest54 |
as if |
| 19:27 |
Guest54 |
the real problem is of course that everything is built on sand and software was a mistake |
| 19:27 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> maybe dynamic_send_media_yes_i_really_think_know_what_i_am_doing() |
| 19:28 |
Guest54 |
hehe |
| 19:28 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> at the beginning, the universe was created, and it is widely considered to be a mistake |
| 19:29 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but yeah, my view on the oxidation stuff was it should be a group |
| 19:29 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> hence why the pr wasn't merged, and it doesn't work |
| 19:29 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner btw i suggest to change the texture format in mcl_maps to A1R5G5B5 because than you get slightly smaller maps with 16bpp colors instead of 24bpp colors |
| 19:29 |
Guest54 |
oh, it doesn't work either lol |
| 19:29 |
Guest54 |
what does not work? |
| 19:29 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it tries to override a definition that doesn't exist |
| 19:31 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> you sure you don't want to join our issue tracker? |
| 19:31 |
Guest54 |
not right now |
| 19:31 |
Guest54 |
i have experience with it, you know |
| 19:31 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> your knowledge is pretty solid, and any context added to issues would help long term |
| 19:31 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> up to you, of course |
| 19:32 |
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Wuzzy joined #minetest |
| 19:32 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i mean, i know you were around a while ago |
| 19:32 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> things have changed multiple times since, of course |
| 19:32 |
Guest54 |
yes, and most of the crowd is still in the same mindset |
| 19:32 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> ok, i understand if that would be frustrating |
| 19:32 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> either way, i do value your knowledge and feedback |
| 19:33 |
Guest54 |
look, as long as it is allowed to randomly refactor stuff *without* making sure it works, i will give you pointers and maybe open issues at some point again, but it is just tiring |
| 19:33 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i may not be able to do it all, or immediately |
| 19:33 |
Guest54 |
and i do not know about you, but apparently it was allowed before |
| 19:33 |
|
sys4 joined #minetest |
| 19:33 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i get that, and the most important thing is you're in a good place |
| 19:34 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i cannot say i won't allow, or not allow anything, but people generally should justify a change |
| 19:34 |
Guest54 |
yeah, most of the stuff is stuff that changed between me leaving and you coming to thte project |
| 19:34 |
Guest54 |
like most of the stuff that annoys me right now |
| 19:34 |
Guest54 |
super fast baby zombies for example |
| 19:34 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> sometimes you may stuff you might not be keen on. my policy is generally if a PR improves things, it is mergable |
| 19:35 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> that could be code quality, functionality, performance or compatibility |
| 19:35 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i recently fixed a lot of mob speeds |
| 19:35 |
Guest54 |
i am not against having a lower bar for architectural issues, i mean gameplay-wise |
| 19:35 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it's still not right, but it's a step in the right direction |
| 19:36 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> gameplay is everything to me |
| 19:36 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> we are making a game afterall |
| 19:36 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> if it plays well and performs well, that's great |
| 19:37 |
Guest54 |
yeah, the thing is if it does not play well it annoys me to interact with a vocal minority of people on the bugtracker |
| 19:38 |
Guest54 |
i just punched a polar bear in single player and it turned red and seems to glitch around now |
| 19:38 |
Guest54 |
stuff like that |
| 19:38 |
Guest54 |
it used to work i think |
| 19:38 |
Guest54 |
or if you give a chicken seeds it will run around spreading LOVE |
| 19:38 |
Guest54 |
making heart particle effects forever or so |
| 19:39 |
Guest54 |
the pathfinding of the polar bear is held up by a single layer of snow hehehe |
| 19:39 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> oh, i hate snow |
| 19:39 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it sometimes cannot be jumped over |
| 19:39 |
Guest54 |
lol |
| 19:39 |
Guest54 |
that used to work? |
| 19:39 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> one day, i'm going to want to deal with that |
| 19:40 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i cannot say what used to work or not |
| 19:40 |
Guest54 |
and if you manage to be directly above a mob (e.g. glass floor) it does pirouettes |
| 19:40 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> yup |
| 19:40 |
Guest54 |
if you want to understand my position a bit, boot up mineclone2 0.71 or earlier with minetest 5.4 and see what worked that now does not. the game had less features obviously. |
| 19:41 |
Guest54 |
it's not that it was bug-free, quite the opposite |
| 19:41 |
Guest54 |
but some stuff worked back then that now does not |
| 19:41 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i think from 0.71 to 0.72 there was a lot of work, mobs were reworked heavily |
| 19:41 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but it got in a dodgy state, cora took the call to roll back to a previous version |
| 19:41 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and since then, we have iterated on that |
| 19:42 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i think some things must have regressed in the past |
| 19:42 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and we'll have to unscrew them at some point |
| 19:42 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> for me, there are too many issues on the main meta path |
| 19:43 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> for example, nether is beyond brutal |
| 19:43 |
Guest54 |
i suspect cora did not actually revert to a known-good state of 0.71 but to some intermediate state |
| 19:43 |
Guest54 |
wdym |
| 19:43 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> hoglins being boss level standard |
| 19:43 |
Guest54 |
oh |
| 19:43 |
Guest54 |
i never fought hoglins |
| 19:43 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> you don't fight hoglins |
| 19:43 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> you fly and take a lava bath |
| 19:44 |
Guest54 |
mobs turning red briefly also used to work |
| 19:44 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues/3577 |
| 19:44 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> no cooldown, too fast, hit through walls |
| 19:44 |
Guest54 |
LOL |
| 19:44 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and they knock you too high |
| 19:45 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> so, being unable to survive nether even if l33t is probably a bigger priority than red flashing polar bears 🙂 |
| 19:45 |
Guest54 |
now when it becomes daylight every mob that does not like daylight is totally red |
| 19:45 |
Guest54 |
red zombies |
| 19:45 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> yup, they're burning |
| 19:45 |
Guest54 |
well |
| 19:45 |
Guest54 |
it looks bad compared to the earlier version |
| 19:45 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> graphics isn't my strong point tbh |
| 19:45 |
Guest54 |
like a red overlay over the entire thing is worse than … flames |
| 19:45 |
Guest54 |
i guess |
| 19:46 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> plays bad > looks bad |
| 19:46 |
Guest54 |
also so many mobs spawn you don't even need to breed them nowadays |
| 19:47 |
Guest54 |
also mobs just … stop doing anything if you are not close enough? |
| 19:47 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> mobs spawning improvements have been made: https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/pulls/3356 |
| 19:47 |
Guest54 |
maybe that's wrong |
| 19:47 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> more will likely be needed |
| 19:47 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> they do stop, and probably need to |
| 19:47 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> same as minecraft |
| 19:47 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> performance wise |
| 19:47 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> our servers often hit 500 mobs |
| 19:48 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and if all are operational, you're gonna have a biiiiig issue |
| 19:49 |
Guest54 |
btw, the lava thing, i know why it was changed |
| 19:49 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> this is our initial release notes: https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues/3571#issuecomment-65592 |
| 19:49 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and priorities: https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/labels |
| 19:49 |
Guest54 |
cora figured water can not exist next to nether lava and thus the ABM was to return early in the nether. the problem is it should not return early on the roof. |
| 19:49 |
Guest54 |
like water in the nether is rare, but water on the nether roof is needed so you can have cobblestone there. |
| 19:49 |
Guest54 |
the roof is void, not nether |
| 19:50 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> fair point, it's niche, but the max_y probably needs tweaking on the abm |
| 19:50 |
Guest54 |
yes, it should be nether max not end min |
| 19:51 |
Guest54 |
i mean actually it should be everywhere, but then the dimension full of lava makes fires burn more slowly due to abm spam |
| 19:51 |
Guest54 |
only the nether roof thing is meaningfully affecting gameplay right now though |
| 19:51 |
Guest54 |
are villages now generated smarter btw? |
| 19:51 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> still a very niche play style |
| 19:52 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> village generation needs to be reworked |
| 19:52 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i had fixed it so it doesn't spawn on top of snowy trees |
| 19:52 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and bell platforms aren't huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge |
| 19:52 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but it needs to be rewritten from scratch |
| 19:52 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it stops the world for gen |
| 19:52 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it's really poorly optimized |
| 19:53 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> for example, schemas place on 1 block and platform up or down to it |
| 19:53 |
Guest54 |
you should really add some gameplay tips btw |
| 19:53 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> rather than it finding optimal height |
| 19:53 |
Guest54 |
“one night in the nether equals eight nights in the overworld” when a player switches to the bed item in the nether |
| 19:53 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> "git gud, scrub" |
| 19:53 |
Guest54 |
or ”kill a villager to make it drop its entire trading inventory” |
| 19:53 |
Guest54 |
“the best way to find diamonds is to mine straight down” |
| 19:54 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i'm not sure if they are differences or bugs |
| 19:54 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> ha |
| 19:54 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> mining straight down is a bad idea |
| 19:54 |
Guest54 |
well |
| 19:54 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> my g/f played for a little bit |
| 19:54 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> she got full iron |
| 19:54 |
Guest54 |
i once witnessed a player being stuck in the end |
| 19:54 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> then she dug down |
| 19:54 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> took a lava bath, never played again |
| 19:54 |
Guest54 |
and then someone told them they should just mine straight down until they find end ore because with that you can teleport out of the end |
| 19:54 |
Guest54 |
it was very funny |
| 19:54 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> ooof |
| 19:55 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> (found the oysterity player) |
| 19:55 |
Guest54 |
hehe |
| 19:55 |
Guest54 |
i always tell newbies that other players lie, cheat and steal |
| 19:55 |
Guest54 |
“you can tame a dog by leftclicking it with a bone” |
| 19:55 |
Guest54 |
(that one is funny) |
| 19:56 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> haha, you're a bad, bad man |
| 19:56 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i cannot grief online, i try to build others up |
| 19:56 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i absolutely don't mine the bottom sugarcane |
| 19:56 |
Guest54 |
i am not a man, i am pinochhio |
| 19:56 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i leave my farm unprotected |
| 19:56 |
Guest54 |
i build farms on the nether roof |
| 19:57 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> ooooh, that's such a big... nose you have there |
| 19:57 |
Guest54 |
in case anyone accidentally gets stuck there |
| 19:57 |
Guest54 |
last thing i built was a portal in the nether leading to a room that looks like an underground farm in the overworld |
| 19:57 |
Guest54 |
like, you go into the nether portal and come out in a place looking like the overworld |
| 19:58 |
Guest54 |
once, on a space station on a server i made fake mini biomes, like very small pyramids |
| 19:58 |
Guest54 |
and a fake nether hidden behind a fake nether portal that was just a purple banner thingy |
| 19:58 |
Guest54 |
we also had fake end there |
| 19:59 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> interesting |
| 19:59 |
Guest54 |
you dropped down a hole in a very small end portal that was also fake |
| 19:59 |
Guest54 |
into a room that looked like platforms surrounded by black concrete |
| 19:59 |
Guest54 |
infinity room |
| 19:59 |
Guest54 |
let's see if i can find a screenshot |
| 20:01 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner https://mister-muffin.de/p/19iw.jpg |
| 20:01 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner https://mister-muffin.de/p/x4Kj.jpg |
| 20:02 |
|
sparky4 joined #minetest |
| 20:02 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner https://mister-muffin.de/p/GLLE.jpg |
| 20:03 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> damn, you put some time into that |
| 20:03 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner the end https://mister-muffin.de/p/rubh.jpg |
| 20:04 |
Guest54 |
i did not do it alone, but a lot of it |
| 20:04 |
Guest54 |
the space station was built by someone else |
| 20:04 |
Guest54 |
and it just looked boring before hehe |
| 20:05 |
Guest54 |
did you ever do banner art? |
| 20:05 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i don't think i understand art 🙂 |
| 20:06 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> or cosmetics |
| 20:06 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i'm mr functional |
| 20:08 |
Guest54 |
well i gave people duped shulkers full with banners that have letters on it |
| 20:08 |
Guest54 |
i hope i find another dupe |
| 20:08 |
Guest54 |
or a new way to break bedrock lol |
| 20:12 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i think i know a way... |
| 20:12 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but i ain't saying 🙂 |
| 20:16 |
Guest54 |
btw, bonemeal does not seem to work on saplings, did you notice? |
| 20:18 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> nah |
| 20:18 |
Guest54 |
it used to work |
| 20:18 |
Guest54 |
at some point |
| 20:18 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> a developer was going to work on bonemealing, but are not involved anymore |
| 20:18 |
Guest54 |
did they … refactor it? ;) |
| 20:19 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> they were thinking of... refactoring it |
| 20:19 |
Guest54 |
oh it maybe works now |
| 20:19 |
Guest54 |
just needs a lot |
| 20:19 |
Guest54 |
but it did not work on mangroves last time i checked |
| 20:19 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> idk |
| 20:22 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> mangroves is a whole different thing |
| 20:22 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i think there leaves also don't rot due to an incorrect param2 |
| 20:24 |
Guest54 |
were they refactored lol? |
| 20:29 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i think it requires a schematic change |
| 20:29 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i always seem schema change, and go, oh look, we have other tickets 🙂 |
| 20:35 |
|
cora joined #minetest |
| 20:36 |
Guest54 |
hi cora |
| 20:36 |
cora |
hello |
| 20:36 |
Guest54 |
i apologize, appguru told me that i dun goofed with mcl_maps and xmaps |
| 20:36 |
Guest54 |
the callback is called once for each player |
| 20:36 |
Guest54 |
not when all players have the map |
| 20:36 |
cora |
uh ok ? |
| 20:37 |
Guest54 |
this means some players in multiplayer will not see a map on a wall |
| 20:37 |
Guest54 |
but michieal did not understand it |
| 20:37 |
Guest54 |
and claimed it was an engine issue |
| 20:37 |
cora |
alright i'm not in mcl2 anymore |
| 20:37 |
Guest54 |
i.e. was talking out of their ass |
| 20:37 |
Guest54 |
i am telling you that because it affects everything with dynamic media |
| 20:38 |
Guest54 |
the callback is once for each player |
| 20:38 |
cora |
i see |
| 20:38 |
Guest54 |
so it works for the fastest player |
| 20:38 |
Guest54 |
e.g. singleplayer |
| 20:38 |
Guest54 |
in other news, cora: https://mister-muffin.de/p/F0am.png :) |
| 20:39 |
cora |
nice |
| 20:39 |
Guest54 |
give me some demoscene pixel art effects lol |
| 20:40 |
Guest54 |
rotozoom hehe |
| 20:42 |
Guest54 |
https://seancode.com/demofx/ |
| 20:48 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner is it true that you became maintainer of mineclone2 through a vote on the issue tracker that was running for only 24 hours? https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues/3047 |
| 20:48 |
Guest54 |
> Surprisingly, we barely had votes |
| 20:48 |
Guest54 |
what a surprise lol |
| 20:50 |
cora |
yea classic ... ima leave here though discussing it with them is not going anywhere |
| 20:50 |
cora |
just figured i might catch you here |
| 20:50 |
|
cora left #minetest |
| 20:53 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> I think discussions on this topic have been done to death. I'd rather not discuss it |
| 20:53 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner well, even if you are capable, the way you became maintainer seems like a mockery of democracy. i am not saying projects need to be democratic, but i would have rejected such a vote. |
| 20:54 |
Guest54 |
even if people voted for me |
| 20:55 |
Guest54 |
i don't want to discuss anything, i simply wanted to express that i was unaware of this and i find it despicable |
| 20:56 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> It is up to you how you feel about it. Only 1 active member of the dev team was opposed to it. However, it was run or rerun is irrelevant. |
| 20:56 |
Guest54 |
it is indeed |
| 20:56 |
Guest54 |
the thing is, that's *exactly* the kind of drama for which i avoid the issue tracker on that project |
| 20:57 |
Guest54 |
just so you know |
| 20:57 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> That is your choice |
| 20:57 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> I don't think any of that stuff was fun for anybody |
| 20:58 |
Guest54 |
i have a question though, i don't get why kneekoo made a sham vote instead of just deciding it on their own?! |
| 20:58 |
Guest54 |
like many projects are run with a benevolent dictatorship model |
| 20:58 |
Guest54 |
and idea? |
| 20:58 |
Guest54 |
any |
| 20:58 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> As i said, I don't want to discuss it |
| 21:00 |
Guest54 |
you don't need to, but now you know that I know that the project did not become less toxic in the time i was away |
| 21:00 |
Guest54 |
it's not your fault btw |
| 21:00 |
Guest54 |
good luck! |
| 21:02 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> you will make a decision with what information you have, there is a lot of stuff you're not aware of that i do not want to go into |
| 21:02 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> ultimately, that was 4 months ago |
| 21:02 |
Guest54 |
oh, drama is always complex |
| 21:02 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> contributors are mostly happy, and respectful |
| 21:02 |
Guest54 |
and more nuanced |
| 21:03 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> the environment is welcoming to new contributors |
| 21:03 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and the focus is on code |
| 21:03 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i think the environment is the opposite of toxic |
| 21:03 |
Guest54 |
it can't happen that fast, even if you have a different leadership style |
| 21:03 |
Guest54 |
culture builds up over time |
| 21:03 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> you are very right |
| 21:04 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> thing have improved over time |
| 21:04 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and for the record, even prior to me taking over, things improved in some regards too |
| 21:04 |
Guest54 |
also have you chosen to unbreak the furniture mod and the texture packs in some way in the soon-to-happen next release? if you do not want to deliver the textures in the zip file, i think the only thing you need for it is a mod that copies the old textures to a folder on game startup. |
| 21:05 |
Guest54 |
that way you avoid symlinks |
| 21:06 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i hear what you are saying, and i do not dislike your suggestion |
| 21:06 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i will think about it |
| 21:06 |
Guest54 |
the easiest way would be to do it the other way around btw |
| 21:06 |
Guest54 |
just make a script that copies them into a single folder for texture pack creators |
| 21:06 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> rudzik i think doesn't seem to be responding on their issue tracker |
| 21:07 |
Guest54 |
well, you can't expect anyone to fix stuff that has worked fine for a year or so |
| 21:07 |
Guest54 |
if you break it |
| 21:07 |
Guest54 |
no idea if that person is still making minetest mods |
| 21:07 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i think they are from russia |
| 21:07 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and there are a few from russia that are not available for various reasons |
| 21:07 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i hope they are ok, ofc |
| 21:07 |
Guest54 |
that is unfortunate yes |
| 21:08 |
Guest54 |
putin huilo |
| 21:08 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i don't really want to get into politics neither |
| 21:08 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> cannot assume views of people based on their leaders etc |
| 21:09 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but there are many talented software folk, and i hope they are ok |
| 21:09 |
Guest54 |
russians i know should be safely abroad, surely they have *very* different views |
| 21:09 |
Guest54 |
it is the thing with people who leave their countries of origin, usually they don't like some things about them |
| 21:10 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but either way |
| 21:10 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> the optimal strategy would have been to work with the mod author |
| 21:10 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but they are unavailable, that makes it more challenging |
| 21:10 |
Guest54 |
IMO the optimal strategy would have been to make sure you don't need to |
| 21:10 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> as i said, i'm going to have to think about it |
| 21:11 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i don't agree with your view, you are very keen on backwards compatibility, and i respect that, but i don't think you can allow it preventing you from making decisions you need to |
| 21:11 |
Guest54 |
i am keen on maintaining compatibility when the reason compatibility is broken is a simple name change which can be worked around in every case |
| 21:12 |
Guest54 |
changing names of textures or items is something that even before your time as maintainer has caused issues with other mods again and again |
| 21:12 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> yes |
| 21:12 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> the perfect strategy was if things were named correctly first time around |
| 21:12 |
|
fling joined #minetest |
| 21:13 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> based on standards advocated by the framework |
| 21:13 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but we cannot change the past |
| 21:13 |
Guest54 |
the second-best strategy is to not let aesthetic concerns trump technical concerns (compatibility, not breaking user worlds) |
| 21:13 |
Guest54 |
and usually it is super easy |
| 21:13 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> aesthetic and manageability are two different things |
| 21:13 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i am a maintainer of a game, you are a mod author |
| 21:13 |
Guest54 |
you should be aware that regardless of your justification, it will reflect upon you if you break every texture pack with the next release, after all you are project lead |
| 21:13 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> you have a different perspective to me, and i respect it |
| 21:14 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but your desire to not want to change things isn't exactly impartial |
| 21:14 |
Guest54 |
it is not that i do not want to change things, that is misrepresenting it |
| 21:15 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i mean, if it reflects upon me, my reputation was mud before people even knew me, i don't think many gave me a chance, and that is up to them. i can not and will not live for others validation, and i guess that has been made easier for me 🙂 |
| 21:15 |
Guest54 |
it's just that i know how compat works and i see that any idiot that does not (not you, people who refucktor things) claims it's “too hard” |
| 21:16 |
Guest54 |
i was maintainer of a game and i believe the one time we broke something 5 minutes after we noticed we rewrote history to have it never happen |
| 21:16 |
Guest54 |
and were more careful every time afterwards |
| 21:16 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> you don't give yourself enough credit, you are a smart guy with a great analytical brain. you see shit many people miss |
| 21:16 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> when people miss that, they ain't shit, or bad, just learning |
| 21:16 |
Guest54 |
no, they usually don't care to look |
| 21:17 |
Guest54 |
i have gotten that type of statement a lot |
| 21:17 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> in your view, some know and ignore it, and that is a problem |
| 21:17 |
Guest54 |
the thing is, i am also only cooking with water |
| 21:17 |
Guest54 |
it is just that when i add a feature breaking compat is a tool of last resort, not of first resort |
| 21:17 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> that was your takeaway |
| 21:17 |
Guest54 |
the ”rewrite everything” crowd has it as a tool of first resort |
| 21:18 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i've been a dev for over a decade, i have my own experience and own learnings |
| 21:18 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i also don't let scar tissue prevent me from making the right calls |
| 21:18 |
Guest54 |
then surely you have dealt with abominations from upstream, e.g. imagemagick |
| 21:18 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> most of the worst places i have worked created process over scar tissue that sucked the life out of anyone knew until everyone left was dead inside |
| 21:19 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> to improve some things, you have to break some things |
| 21:19 |
Guest54 |
i know only two processes that together constitute a hill i am willing to die on |
| 21:19 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and that doesn't justify breakage |
| 21:19 |
Guest54 |
first: if someone new joins the team, everyone has a veto on them |
| 21:19 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but you cannot avoid it if it is the right call, you can mitigate it |
| 21:19 |
Guest54 |
second: every change needs to be reviewed and the reviewer needs to be adversarial (i.e. try to prove the code is shit) |
| 21:19 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i disagree |
| 21:19 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> mcla, with all due respect, was probably solid, but it was not developer friendly |
| 21:20 |
Guest54 |
in my experience, both together, regardless of the skill level of the people involved, create a very good baseline for making quality software |
| 21:20 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and the review processes were too long, no one was involved, and you didn't continue it |
| 21:20 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it had it's own flaws |
| 21:20 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> obviously i don't know all the details, but it wasn't perfect, and you cannot claim everything it did was right |
| 21:20 |
Guest54 |
the reason i did not continue it was because of illnesses |
| 21:21 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and the successor? |
| 21:21 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> was anyone left to handover to? |
| 21:21 |
Guest54 |
there was no successor, we were 3 (more like 2.5) people and you can't do that with less |
| 21:22 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> yup |
| 21:22 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> the point i'm making is your adversarial culture doesn't welcome people |
| 21:22 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it doesn't build people up and get their buy in |
| 21:22 |
Guest54 |
also i once checked, per person mcla merged about the same amount of code that mcl2 had, only that mcl2 had about 1/3 of the commits dealing with regressions from earlier and mcla did not. |
| 21:22 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it kills off anyone potential successor |
| 21:22 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it isn't a positive culture for longevity |
| 21:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> mcla was always a joke of a projec |
| 21:23 |
Guest54 |
i actually work at a company where it worked very well. basically, any review is a knowledge transfer. |
| 21:24 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but people are paid |
| 21:24 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> paid to put up with bs |
| 21:24 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> confident in their abilities |
| 21:24 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner, what killed it off was that requiring two approvals for external contributors when you have three people doing work demotivates people. |
| 21:24 |
Guest54 |
(and also i took too long for reviews, because i was not well) |
| 21:24 |
Guest54 |
oh no, no one is confident, confidence is dangerous |
| 21:24 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> the process was more than the capabilities the project had |
| 21:24 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and you didn't have enough people with buy in for that process |
| 21:25 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> so it was folly |
| 21:25 |
Guest54 |
well, it was the bare minimum i would do to make quality software. minetest is run the same way, may i say. |
| 21:25 |
Guest54 |
we did not even have proper tests |
| 21:25 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> quality software |
| 21:25 |
Guest54 |
well, quality in terms of “don't break my world” |
| 21:25 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but people don't play it |
| 21:25 |
Guest54 |
it was never on cdb |
| 21:26 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> they played what you would perceive as shitty mcl5 and now mcl2 |
| 21:26 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> software is pointless if people don't use it |
| 21:26 |
Guest54 |
i don't doubt you are totally into having lots of users, but we forked it because we wanted to play, not because we were into having fans |
| 21:26 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> you're not breaking the worlds of players that don't exist |
| 21:27 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> you had the support of a post-beta, with the product of an alpha |
| 21:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> "use" doesn't necessarily mean people have to play it though. If you can just get something merged elsewhere that does have a playerbase, sometimes that can be a win too. |
| 21:27 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> fair point |
| 21:27 |
Guest54 |
yes indeed, many of the contributions to mcla were merged into mineclone2 when cora became maintainer |
| 21:27 |
Guest54 |
and they had the added benefit of being solid |
| 21:28 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i read the post where she stepped away from mcla |
| 21:28 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it wasn't complimentary of the process tbf |
| 21:29 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i don't like to be critical, or have this adversarial tone |
| 21:29 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but after we talked, you carried on saying we didn't care |
| 21:29 |
Guest54 |
i understand it, you want to build a community |
| 21:29 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and that was the opposite of what was said |
| 21:29 |
Guest54 |
i don't. |
| 21:29 |
Guest54 |
i mean, is that true? |
| 21:30 |
Guest54 |
i care more about not annoying players or downstream consumers of my software than i care about not annoying developers. |
| 21:30 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> you want my motive? |
| 21:30 |
Guest54 |
i think you made it very clear, you want to not annoy people so much they leave over QA concerns |
| 21:31 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> to help make gaming great on linux, to ensure people that have it, can install and play something great, and they don't have to go back to m$ |
| 21:31 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> to ensure that people that don't have money can play with family on poor hardware |
| 21:31 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> to give a little bit of joy to people |
| 21:31 |
Guest54 |
yes, that's good! |
| 21:31 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it's all about the end users, and server owners |
| 21:32 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and yes, i know mod wise, we're not in a great place |
| 21:32 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and i've heard the criticisms, many valid |
| 21:32 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and i want to improve things |
| 21:32 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but i also know we have a team of 5-8 |
| 21:32 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and nigh on 800 issues |
| 21:32 |
Guest54 |
just for me part of that is to go to great lengths to *not* break existing users stuff or their installed mods if you can avoid it with a bit of work (e.g not renaming that stupidly named item or figuring out how to provide fallback texture names). |
| 21:32 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> so you gotta be ruthless and prioritise |
| 21:33 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> the decision was not something i proposed, it was something discussed by the team |
| 21:33 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and more where keen on it that not |
| 21:33 |
Guest54 |
well you could prioritize the concerns of people over texture packs https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues/3392#issuecomment-66059 |
| 21:33 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> ultimately, it was a team decision, and we went ahead |
| 21:33 |
Guest54 |
well, devs usually don't have a good grip on the community unless they are part of it and it is very small. |
| 21:34 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> most of those that contributed often speak about user |
| 21:34 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and give a shit about their experiences |
| 21:34 |
Guest54 |
indeed |
| 21:37 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but yeah, that issue was discussed over discord, 2 prs, and 1 or 2 issues |
| 21:38 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it started before my time |
| 21:38 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but we made that call, and i will happily defend it |
| 21:41 |
Guest54 |
well, i am not saying don't do it, i am saying doing it should involve not breaking stuff |
| 21:41 |
Guest54 |
it's easier to change things than to change things without breaking other things in software |
| 21:42 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> completely |
| 21:42 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and i and many others didn't consider dependencies on image names until it cropped up |
| 21:42 |
Guest54 |
which is funny because every texture pack ever works like that |
| 21:42 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i'm not embarrassed to say i missed that. it was a learning experience |
| 21:43 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i'll give you a hint |
| 21:43 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i've never used a texture pack |
| 21:43 |
Guest54 |
well if all of you missed it, i don't get why you defend the original decision |
| 21:43 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i only played bedrock vanilla before getting involved |
| 21:43 |
Guest54 |
btw, if you change textures with ”default” in the name, you'll suddenly have *less* texture packs working, not more. |
| 21:43 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i never used a mc mod |
| 21:43 |
Guest54 |
just as a hint |
| 21:43 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and i'm new into gaming and mt |
| 21:43 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> don't assume people know everything |
| 21:44 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> well, it is good to know that |
| 21:45 |
Guest54 |
you can't have it both ways, either the original decision was made justly and needs to be defended or it was made on incomplete information and may be reconsidered or deferred if there exist insurmountable obstacles |
| 21:45 |
Guest54 |
or at least ones which are perceived as such |
| 21:45 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> am i not talking to you now? |
| 21:45 |
Guest54 |
indeed |
| 21:45 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> don't you think i'm trying to take on new insights |
| 21:45 |
Guest54 |
i do |
| 21:45 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i could have easily dismissed this |
| 21:45 |
Guest54 |
btw, the digging animation on shulkers is broken, dig a shulker to see it |
| 21:46 |
Guest54 |
it was not in the past |
| 21:46 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> dude, we have 800 odd bugs |
| 21:46 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> the past is gone |
| 21:46 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> this is day 0 |
| 21:46 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> if you want to point out every bug in mcl2, you'll be here a long time |
| 21:47 |
Guest54 |
nah, i just thought you did not know |
| 21:47 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> can i just post you a link to my issue tracker |
| 21:47 |
Guest54 |
i will post issues and not bring them on irc in the future |
| 21:47 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> if it's in there, it won't get forgotten |
| 21:47 |
Guest54 |
i just noticed it |
| 21:47 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> if it is in here, it might |
| 21:47 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i'm dyslexic, my brain loses information easily |
| 21:47 |
Guest54 |
you can't really forget it, everyone interacting with shulkers sees it every time |
| 21:47 |
Guest54 |
like, it will come up eventually |
| 21:47 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i haven't interacted with a shulker yet, lol |
| 21:47 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but yes |
| 21:47 |
Guest54 |
uh |
| 21:48 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i've never completed mc or been to the end (in mc) |
| 21:48 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> (i can imagine that will trigger you) |
| 21:48 |
Guest54 |
have you played the game much? |
| 21:48 |
Guest54 |
nah |
| 21:48 |
Guest54 |
i have never defeated the dragon, for there being no dragon to defeat when i got there |
| 21:48 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i've played A LOT |
| 21:48 |
Guest54 |
i found a dragon egg though |
| 21:48 |
Guest54 |
and duped it a lot |
| 21:49 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but it's an open sandbox game |
| 21:49 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i don't really want to beat the dragon |
| 21:49 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> because then it's done |
| 21:49 |
Guest54 |
and then told a player on a server if they would plant A LOT of trees i would give them THE dragon egg |
| 21:49 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i don't want the magic gone yet 🙂 |
| 21:49 |
Guest54 |
it was hilarous to see how they could not figure out how to pick it up |
| 21:49 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i will get there |
| 21:49 |
Guest54 |
nah, it's only done when you say it is done |
| 21:50 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> by the time i get there, a lot of overworld and nether bugs will be squashed |
| 21:50 |
Guest54 |
anyways, i noticed the shulker thing only because i just tried to load an old world to see if it is broken and all my lapis became blue dye and all my villagers lost their jobs. probably not your fault, but that's the kind of thing i would not like to inflict on some kid. |
| 21:50 |
Guest54 |
oh also one record i had in inventory became an unknown item |
| 21:50 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> lapis is convertable |
| 21:50 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> put it in your crafting table |
| 21:50 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> or invent |
| 21:50 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and you can convert it back |
| 21:50 |
Guest54 |
which means someone forget to add an alias i guess |
| 21:51 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> villagers shouldn't lose their job if they have been traded with |
| 21:51 |
Guest54 |
but if they have not? |
| 21:51 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but they will refind job blocks or beds which they never used |
| 21:51 |
Guest54 |
but old villages *do not have* job blocks |
| 21:51 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> then you drop the job blocks again, and they'll retake a job |
| 21:51 |
Guest54 |
unless i am mistaken about what kind of blocks are job blocks |
| 21:52 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> basically villagers were unimplemented |
| 21:52 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it was the thing that got me contributing |
| 21:52 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i wrote the code for that |
| 21:52 |
Guest54 |
you mean like, they went from implemented to un-implemented? |
| 21:52 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> lol, no |
| 21:52 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> do you play mc? or have you? |
| 21:52 |
Guest54 |
so it is your fault after all, what a surprise :D |
| 21:52 |
Guest54 |
never. i have seen youtube videos. |
| 21:53 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> villagers will take a job based on a job block, if you remove it, they give up job unless they are traded |
| 21:53 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> they will also take a bed |
| 21:53 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> if it's removed (which they didn't used to) |
| 21:53 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> check the wiki for job blocks |
| 21:54 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> villagers were skinned cows |
| 21:54 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> with a formspec |
| 21:54 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> they were barely implemented |
| 21:54 |
Guest54 |
well a friend of mine trapped some for trading |
| 21:54 |
Guest54 |
it is unfortunate if they become nitwits |
| 21:54 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> now people can do meta stuff like destroy and create job blocks to hunt mending villagers |
| 21:54 |
Guest54 |
i see |
| 21:54 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> they don't become nitwits |
| 21:54 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> unemployed |
| 21:55 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> 1 in 100 chance of becoming a nitwit on birth |
| 21:55 |
Guest54 |
oh i see |
| 21:55 |
Guest54 |
they look the same ig |
| 21:55 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> destroy and recreate the job blocks and they'll try to take the closest |
| 21:55 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> (they do look the same) |
| 21:55 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but basically, villagers used to wonder around, fall off cliffs and die |
| 21:56 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> you'd find a villager and there was a good 80% chance all villagers had leapt to their death |
| 21:56 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> they now go to work, bed, and town bell at lunch |
| 21:56 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> the changes have kept villagers safe in many ways 🙂 |
| 21:56 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and was why i did it |
| 21:56 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> if you play it, you'll realise it's a massive improvement |
| 21:57 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> "so it is your fault after all, what a surprise :D" i remember when you ranted at a dev for killing your sheep |
| 21:57 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> don't you go changing 🙂 |
| 21:58 |
Guest54 |
well i think it was a friend of mine |
| 21:58 |
Guest54 |
i am not sure |
| 21:58 |
Guest54 |
but we had a whole pen of sheep |
| 21:59 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but if you find any issues on migration to new versions, please let me know |
| 21:59 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i would like old worlds to be convertable |
| 21:59 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and any feedback, i'll ensure we have tickets for |
| 22:00 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> bu the reason the villagers lost their textures is because they had a job block that got destroyed previously |
| 22:00 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> you probably moved it |
| 22:00 |
Guest54 |
i doubt it |
| 22:00 |
Guest54 |
they had no job blocks in that old version |
| 22:00 |
Guest54 |
they simply did not exist |
| 22:00 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> the code will now check job block is there at the place stored on the meta |
| 22:01 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> how did they get their job then? |
| 22:01 |
Guest54 |
villagers used to spawn with a job |
| 22:01 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> ah, that's bad |
| 22:01 |
Guest54 |
i check it again |
| 22:01 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> btw, i hate to spoil it to you |
| 22:01 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but villagers no longer randomly spawn |
| 22:02 |
Guest54 |
i get it, that's okay |
| 22:02 |
Guest54 |
you were right, if the villager was traded with it keeps its job |
| 22:02 |
Guest54 |
thanks! |
| 22:03 |
Guest54 |
btw, if you play the game and you see unaligned textures, does it not bug you? |
| 22:03 |
Guest54 |
maybe i am weird like that |
| 22:04 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> errmm, if i noticed it, it probably wouldn't look good |
| 22:04 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> depends how bad |
| 22:04 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but it sounds like a low priority issue |
| 22:04 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> a cosmetic 🙂 |
| 22:05 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but of course, that is just my opinion |
| 22:05 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> many other devs may disagre |
| 22:05 |
Guest54 |
i figured maybe it annoys me more than most |
| 22:06 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i don't tell devs what to work on, so they choose what bugs them the most |
| 22:06 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it's ultimately what brings us in contributors |
| 22:06 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> "oh gosh, i hate it, where is the codebase" |
| 22:07 |
Guest54 |
well, that's a problem in itself. i noticed that there exist quite a number of interesting projects that are basically finished |
| 22:07 |
Guest54 |
and then people fork them hehe |
| 22:07 |
Guest54 |
btw, i am pretty sure old spawneggs do not survive to newer versions |
| 22:07 |
Guest54 |
like they become unknown items |
| 22:07 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> oh right, i thought someone added in support for the old style? |
| 22:07 |
Guest54 |
no idea |
| 22:07 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but i think they're colourised |
| 22:08 |
Guest54 |
it's simply an item name change i think |
| 22:11 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> if you have a screenshot, or text warnings, please fire them across |
| 22:11 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> so i can raise a bug |
| 22:11 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> this was a 0.71 world? |
| 22:13 |
Guest54 |
let me see |
| 22:14 |
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| 22:15 |
Guest54 |
i mean you can automate this thing actually |
| 22:16 |
Guest54 |
make some mod that places every node and chests with every item |
| 22:16 |
Guest54 |
see if it survives each PR |
| 22:16 |
Guest54 |
for the future i mean |
| 22:18 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> that is a good idea |
| 22:18 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> probably helps to go back in time too |
| 22:18 |
Guest54 |
well then you need to make it on a previous version |
| 22:18 |
Guest54 |
the problem is that new code might work with old worlds |
| 22:19 |
Guest54 |
but e.g. mobs code crashes if you go back to the old world (because the new one ruined it) |
| 22:19 |
Guest54 |
so you can not go back practically |
| 22:20 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> well, i hope it doesn't crash, but it would be a learning experience |
| 22:20 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> can always create world as old one, and move it forward |
| 22:21 |
Guest54 |
it does crash because old code tries to access properties that are not there anymore and the new one can handle the old properties but the old one not the new |
| 22:21 |
Guest54 |
so nil crash basically |
| 22:22 |
Guest54 |
something gets compared to nil all the time in lua |
| 22:27 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner the item that does not carry over properly is mobs_mc:zombie_horse |
| 22:29 |
Guest54 |
so it is not all spawn eggs |
| 22:30 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> if you can give me the stack trace, it would be appreciated |
| 22:30 |
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| 22:30 |
Guest54 |
it is not a stack trace, there is simply an unknown item |
| 22:30 |
Guest54 |
could it be that zombie horse got removed? |
| 22:30 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> ah, ok |
| 22:30 |
f-a |
playing Repixture, how do I craft a pickaxe? |
| 22:31 |
Guest54 |
repixture is the game where i think minetest should have automine hehe |
| 22:31 |
Guest54 |
f-a you need string |
| 22:31 |
f-a |
oh |
| 22:31 |
Guest54 |
like from grass |
| 22:31 |
f-a |
oh/ II |
| 22:31 |
Guest54 |
but repixture actually shows you what you can craft |
| 22:31 |
f-a |
thanks Guest54 |
| 22:31 |
Guest54 |
just go outside and touch grass hehe |
| 22:31 |
f-a |
it does, but I haven’t yet got string |
| 22:31 |
Guest54 |
maybe it is named differently let me see |
| 22:31 |
f-a |
I will go outside and touch ass, thanks for the tip Guest54 |
| 22:32 |
Guest54 |
repixture is so cute |
| 22:32 |
Guest54 |
is there still no public server for it? |
| 22:32 |
f-a |
I play it locally |
| 22:33 |
f-a |
mh wait I can make fiber from grass. Maybe I need to pick up more grass? |
| 22:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> used to be, i dont think it exists anymore |
| 22:33 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> ah, i see. egg textures got removed oct 2022 |
| 22:34 |
Guest54 |
hmm |
| 22:34 |
Guest54 |
rp_default:fiber exists |
| 22:34 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner really, the problem is probably that there is no zombie horse anymore. other spawn eggs are fine. |
| 22:35 |
Guest54 |
i mean fine as in they all look the same and whatever |
| 22:35 |
Guest54 |
i liked i more when it was a picture of the mob being spawned, but that's not EXACTLY LIKE MINECRAFT |
| 22:36 |
f-a |
Guest54: sorry but I think I need more help. fiber, plus what? |
| 22:36 |
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| 22:36 |
Guest54 |
f-a fiber, wood, stick |
| 22:37 |
Guest54 |
like wooden plank |
| 22:37 |
Guest54 |
and you need 4 fiber |
| 22:37 |
f-a |
ah, silly me |
| 22:37 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> yeah, i'm not a big fan of obsessing about every mc detail |
| 22:37 |
f-a |
thaks |
| 22:37 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> as long as it functions in a similar manner |
| 22:37 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> with a similar meta |
| 22:37 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner my standard is “can i do the thing in this mc youtube video or not” |
| 22:38 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i think that is reasonable |
| 22:38 |
Guest54 |
which is the reason why for example messing with fire algorithm is verboten |
| 22:38 |
Guest54 |
fire spread must be exactly like mc so that builds do not burn down accidentally |
| 22:38 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> fire needs to be nerfed |
| 22:38 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i've only found 1 woodland mansion in mc |
| 22:38 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and it was a burnt out shell |
| 22:38 |
Guest54 |
not really, what needs to be nerfed is the number of thunderstorms |
| 22:39 |
Guest54 |
also fire can be disabled anyways |
| 22:39 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i was so excited to find the woodland mansion |
| 22:39 |
f-a |
is there a help section where I can consult recipes etc.? |
| 22:39 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and so dissappointed when there was FA left |
| 22:39 |
Guest54 |
f-a in your inventory, click the question mark at the top right |
| 22:39 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i'll ensure we have a configuration setting: idonothatemyself |
| 22:40 |
Guest54 |
f-a the question mark leads to a list of all recipes with all prerequisites |
| 22:40 |
f-a |
thanks |
| 23:33 |
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| 23:45 |
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