Time Nick Message 00:05 Guest54 Jonathon, turns out rendering the textures dynamically is the bottle neck, i am a dumbo 00:31 Guest54 hey pexin hey do you like COLORED EMOJIS??? https://mister-muffin.de/p/FUZp.png :---DDD 00:34 Guest54 Warr1024 do you know any other bitmap font format besides hexfont that has somewhat-usable unicode bitmap fonts? so far i have wondered if i should implement other file formats for my unicode text renderer, but i do not know which font file format people use (unless it is „tables in lua”, lol). 00:39 Pexin minetest has toilet? 00:40 Guest54 Pexin this is just rendering emojis on node surfaces 00:40 Pexin my avatar must feel awful from years of eating those blueberries 00:40 Guest54 for codepoint = 0x1F600, 0x1F700, 9 do … 00:41 Guest54 i have no better idea on how to demonstrate it yet 00:41 MTDiscord homedecor has a toliet 00:41 Guest54 i mean, texttext mod already does the “each node has a texture with its name” thing 00:42 Guest54 hmm, i should probably make something like a book that when placed shows an entity that renders the text or so to showcase the feature. 00:42 Guest54 (ideas welcome) 00:43 Guest54 also pexin given the thing about the japanese characters you complained, you can supply your own font (but it must be in hexfont format for now) 01:09 Blockhead256[m] regarding earlier mineclone mod discussion: remember that base game mods are *not* special and do not magically load first 01:09 Blockhead256[m] https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=26970 01:10 Blockhead256[m] and also that users can load any mod that overrides game mods, like servers with forked MTG tnt 01:17 Guest54 Blockhead256[m] i agree, a base game mod must not have a special status in the dependency calculation, it must be overridable. 01:27 fluxionary has anyone proposed adding the various mods from minetest game to the content db as *distinct mods*? 01:27 MTDiscord yes 01:27 fluxionary jonathon: why hasn't it been done? 01:29 fluxionary there's a couple parts of minetest_game that i think are the best of the breed for what they do, i'd love if depending on them didn't require a full dependency on mtg 01:29 MTDiscord various reasons, some being mods outside of a game might not be the best/make sense/etc. might break/override mod soups that have made changes, would also probably confuse people who are trying to get xyz mod for mtg working on other game like mineclone2, etc 01:31 fluxionary "mod soup" yeah that's certainly a thing 01:31 fluxionary (no sarcasm) 01:32 MTDiscord anyways, always recommend buckaroos auto updating broken down mtg mods for people wanting to submodule them into projects, etc 01:32 fluxionary i feel like mtg could be broken up as a meta-repo pointing to other git repos which are "feature frozen" the same way mtg is now? 01:33 MTDiscord its essentially already done, see above msg 01:33 fluxionary i saw it after i wrote what i did 01:33 fluxionary ok nice 01:33 fluxionary link? 01:33 MTDiscord see dreambuilder 01:34 MTDiscord https://github.com/minetest-game 01:34 MTDiscord person who starts with a t that hosts git.minetest.land had one, but it got abandoned 01:35 MTDiscord name escapes me atm 01:35 MTDiscord tacotexmex 01:35 fluxionary oh, i know them 01:35 fluxionary well, i'm aware of them, they give good comments 01:36 MTDiscord anyways, buckaroos one is kept up to date now, so its what most people use 01:36 fluxionary jonathon: but what if you're not using dreambuilder? 01:36 MTDiscord what? 01:37 fluxionary jonathon: https://github.com/minetest-game is the relevant thing then? it doesn't have a metarepo, but i guess that's where you can pull in individual mods 01:37 fluxionary but why aren't the mods in the CDB? 01:37 MTDiscord yeah, i was saying see dreambuilder since it uses it, because i could remember the url off hand 01:38 MTDiscord *couldnt 01:38 fluxionary ah, so it exists, somewhere, i'll look 01:38 MTDiscord i mean 01:39 MTDiscord > but why aren't the mods in the CDB? . > various reasons, some being mods outside of a game might not be the best/make sense/etc. might break/override mod soups that have made changes, would also probably confuse people who are trying to get xyz mod for mtg working on other game like mineclone2, etc 01:42 fluxionary confusion is obligatory when multiple versions of the same mod are allowed in the cdb 01:44 Guest54 well, they kinda must be (as long as they are compatible), as the dependency system can not really do a “this mod provides this thing, but has another technical name” unless i am mistaken 01:48 Guest54 fluxionary if you want to have fun regarding this, upload a mod from mineclone2 to unbreak every mod that the next mineclone2 release will break. i.e. just change the texture names back so that stuff like additional furniture works or so. 01:49 MTDiscord your missing one, very, very small detail, it would need to be approved 01:51 Guest54 if i am not mistaken, the mcl prefix was free for all, but i guess the particular modname may not be up for grabs. so are you saying that if mineclone2 breaks a mod or texture pack on cdb (as it is planned to do), it would not be allowed to provide a fix by overriding the modname with the old version? 01:51 Guest54 i mean in this case it does not matter much, as you can just provide a texture pack or mod with a different name. 01:52 Guest54 but what if someone, e.g. wanted to patch the stupid thing where lapis turned into blue dye because the author of a PR could not be bothered to use item name aliases? 01:52 MTDiscord im not commenting on any policy decisions, only pointing out that such a thing would need to be approved 01:53 MTDiscord i.e. that any content needs to be approved 01:53 Guest54 that is indeed trivially true. 01:54 MTDiscord you can infer based on me pointing out that fact and being on the cdb team that we might have a discussion about such a package however. at this time im not saying anything official 01:55 Guest54 is there any chance that there comes a policy “do not break mods that rely on your API *names* just because you like to shuffle deck chairs on the titanic?” one day? 01:56 Guest54 because almost all breakage that i can remember mcl2 caused that was not limited to itself was changing names of items and textures around randomly 01:56 Guest54 and i kinda think forcing mod authors to provide aliases for the old items is not *too* onerous 01:56 Guest54 (if there are mods on cdb that depend on it) 01:58 Guest54 otherwise, as long as you can not pin your mod dependencies to one specific version of something it will break again and again if the upstream mod does the deck chair thing 01:59 Guest54 i mean if “it breaks stuff needlessly” was a reason for rejection, i guess it would have been done already, so my spider sense tells me such a rule does not exist 02:00 Guest54 hmm, maybe that needs a test setup. 02:01 Guest54 after all, you can't expect reviewers to load all dependents 02:01 Guest54 or to even know them 02:02 MTDiscord note, outside of policy, ill just say this, uploading and old version of the game mod wholesale is stupid af when your trying to fix stuff, because you yourself would be breaking stuff. to expand on this, when a mod that has the same name as a game one is in mods, it overrides the game one. say the game one has some new api, etc, yours wouldnt have it, thus breaking anything that depends on that game mod 02:04 MTDiscord as far as updates go, ive long pointed out various issues that can occur from cdb model of one approval and then you can do whatever you want. such examples include a person for example making a mod, submitting it through cdb, then changing it to malware after the fact, adding copyrighted assets after the fact, etc 02:04 Guest54 well, all the cases i can point to were just item and texture renames. in which case uploading the old version actually makes sense, but i guess you are correct, it would be a problem sooner or later. 02:07 Guest54 well, there was the whole mineclone5 thing, i forgot about it lol. that was basically “upload everything and change it incompatibly”. but the breakage was limited to mcl5 itself & people knew what they were in for. 02:08 Guest54 ig we'll have to wait for a case where it actually matters. 02:08 Guest54 and find out how to educate people on not breaking stuff 02:08 MTDiscord all i way say to that regard is that mineclone5 is no longer listed on cdb, additionally the project has been abandoned 02:08 Guest54 well, the changes have mostly been upstreamed i think. 02:09 MTDiscord the content yeah, but (not i didnt read specifically into it), most of it was imported in a non breaking way 02:10 Guest54 in any case, i wonder what to do about the “future versions of software are incompatible with itself” problem. it is not limited to minetest. 02:10 Guest54 i mean to minetest mods. minetest is amazing in terms of long-term compat! 02:11 Guest54 like despite the breakage, many many projects are much worse 02:11 Guest54 openra for example simply can't load savegames from previous versions, as savegames are basically replays of the game state 02:12 Guest54 and has AFAIK no provisions for auto-upgrading of maps if unit names or something like that change, it is all done manually 02:13 Guest54 and renpy save game format is just python pickle hehe 02:13 Guest54 (don't load savegames from the internet) 02:15 Guest54 btw, if anyone has any idea how to limit the map griefing on pre-loaded maps if one is not using singlenode, please tell me. yes i know about chunksize=1, but it does not work in this case, because of railcorridors. 02:16 Guest54 i have a map download from an old and interesting server (clamity) and every time i load it into minetest, every post-generation hook is run again and griefs what is built on the map. 02:16 Guest54 you can briefly see the cool stuff when a mapblock is loaded on the client, before it gets replaced 08:45 Blockhead256[m] I'm not sure why you wouldn't just control the environment to use only singlenode, maybe in case you wanted new terrain that was part of the original server's seed? 08:45 Blockhead256[m] anyway it shouldn't be *too* difficult to use an offline tool to mark areas not to be regenerated by the map generator from your world downloads. I just don't think that tool exists yet 11:03 BuckarooBanzai the mapgen only runs if there is one ore more mapblocks in that chunk that aren't generated (or just `ignore` nodes) yet. But yeah: setting singlenode on that map would fix that 15:36 Guest54 Blockhead256[m] BuckarooBanzai i do indeed have the seed of clamity and the map download and would like to resurrect it 15:36 Guest54 i just don't know how to actually make the post generate hooks not run in that case 15:53 Guest54 why do so many people call portals in games non-euclidean? e.g. here https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11093 15:54 Guest54 these camera tricks are not making anything non-euclidean as i understand it 15:55 Guest54 non-euclidean spaces look *completely* different when rendered 15:56 Guest54 like in hyperrogue 16:02 Guest54 rubenwardy you retitled issue #11093 recently, maybe you want to change the “non-euclidean” thing to something appropriate? like the bug reporter obviously isn't asking for some kind of curved space where parallel lines diverge, but for some kind of euclidean-like regions with a transition 16:02 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11093 -- Portals / anywhere door (Non Euclidean) 16:02 Guest54 i am not a mathematician, but i think “euclidean manifold” might be appropriate 16:06 Guest54 i believe this might explain it to people that confuse geometry and topology etc. https://zenorogue.medium.com/non-euclidean-geometry-and-games-fb46989320d4 16:06 Guest54 > Bolyai, Lobachevsky, and Gauss have created a new world, where all Euclid’s postulates hold except the fifth, thus showing that the fifth postulate could not be proven from the other ones. Since Euclid believed that such a thing could not exist, it has been called by Gauss non-Euclidean geometry. 16:07 Guest54 > An easy way to tell whether a game uses truly non-Euclidean geometry is to look for rectangles. In non-Euclidean geometry there are no rectangles, anything that looks a bit like a rectangle actually has its angles smaller than 90 degrees, or its edges are curved. So, if you see rectangles, the game is (probably) not non-Euclidean. 16:08 Guest54 > Surgery changes the topology of the space, but it does not change its geometry. 16:10 Guest54 btw, in case the poster *actually* wants non-euclidean geometry (which i doubt to the strongest possible extent) i believe the issue can be closed as infeasible. 3d non-euclidean space is simply not appropriate. 16:10 Guest54 (for minetest) 16:11 Guest54 and there already seems to be some game doing it https://github.com/Ralith/hypermine/wiki/Gallery 16:12 Guest54 oh wow, this is pure gold: https://github.com/Ralith/hypermine/wiki/Theory 16:12 Guest54 > The world of Hypermine can be understood as hyperbolic 3-space with the order-4 dodecahedral honeycomb as the underlying honeycomb. The cells of this honeycomb are dodecahedra whose sides have a dihedral angle of 90 degrees, with the angles at each vertex within a side also being 90 degrees. 16:13 Guest54 > The dual of this honeycomb is the order-5 cubic honeycomb, and the cells of the dual honeycomb make up the chunks of the Hypermine world. 16:26 Guest54 celeron55 given the forum being slow, have you considered using something like varnish? https://varnish-cache.org/intro/index.html#intro 16:51 Guest54 more unicode text rendering on node surfaces: https://mister-muffin.de/p/F0am.png 16:54 Guest54 same text on the nodes as before, but now with kerning (breaks ascii and shift jis art, obviously) https://mister-muffin.de/p/sD25.png 16:56 celeron55 i can see the text based game already coming 16:56 celeron55 and no, i don't need varnish, i just need to upgrade the server to a non-potato 16:57 Guest54 well, varnish will make potato more reliant if you are smart about caching keys, but i get it 16:57 Guest54 reliable, sorry 16:58 Guest54 celeron55 here is a text based riddle (when a user does not load any font) https://mister-muffin.de/p/webE.png 16:59 Guest54 anyway, am i missing anything big about text rendering? pexin made a comment about the lines being close together last night, so i will probably add line height setting 16:59 Guest54 or rather, line-spacing 16:59 Blockhead256[m] Tageszeit geändert 17:00 Guest54 in germany we don't say “i have adjusted the clock to the correct time”, we say “tageszeit geändert” and i think that's beautiful 17:02 Blockhead256[m] "Time of day changed." is the English text in Minetest.. what you wrote is nowhere near a literal translation 17:02 Guest54 we also say words like heizölrückstoßabdämpfung or malzwhiskyduftproben or mobilfunkgespräch 17:03 Guest54 i am of joking Blockhead256[m] 17:03 Blockhead256[m] furchtbar! 17:03 Blockhead256[m] nah but those compound words are not so scary if you can actually read German 17:03 Guest54 although i think mobilfunkgespräch is a real word 17:04 Guest54 i found heizölrückstoßabdämpfung when i was looking for phrases to test umlaut rendering hehe 17:04 Guest54 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangram 17:04 celeron55 google translate can translate mobilfunkgespräch in german to matkapuhelinpuhelu in finnish. that's nice 17:05 Guest54 here are more examples https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangramm 17:05 Guest54 is finnish even more agglutinative than german? 17:05 celeron55 not sure. i guess it's similar 17:06 celeron55 well wikipedia says finnish is one of the most typical agglutinative languages 17:07 Guest54 can you beat Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz in length with a real word though? ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rinderkennzeichnungs-_und_Rindfleischetikettierungs%C3%BCberwachungsaufgaben%C3%BCbertragungsgesetz 17:07 Guest54 > literally, "Cattle marking and beef labeling supervision duties delegation law" 17:07 Guest54 like in german it becomes a joke when it is so long 17:07 Guest54 like no one talks like that 17:08 Guest54 (but apparently some people in parliaments write like that, hehe) 17:08 celeron55 let me try to translate that myself from the english version as googele translate is unable to 17:08 Guest54 and i wonder, having seen long finnish words, if they are joking about it being possible or if it is in daily usage 17:09 celeron55 karjanmerkinnän- ja naudanlihanmerkinnänvalvontatehtävienvaltuutuslaki 17:09 celeron55 that's it 17:09 celeron55 goes very naturally 17:09 Guest54 the thing is, in german, people would rather use the long name 17:09 Guest54 Gesetz zur Übertragung der Aufgaben für die Überwachung der Rinderkennzeichnung und Rindfleischetikettierung 17:10 Guest54 which is literally how the english language would do it i guess 17:10 celeron55 in legalese and official publications we will use such a term like that, but in casual speaking usually not 17:10 Guest54 like if you would talk about it, you'd not use the long word, but the even longer broken-up compound 17:10 Guest54 i see, so it's prob similar to german? 17:10 celeron55 there would be a shorthand of some sort 17:10 celeron55 for actually speaking about it, or say, blogging 17:10 Guest54 the abbreviation here is RkReÜAÜG lol 17:11 Guest54 like no one would say that 17:11 Guest54 i mean it's obviously the longest example i found 17:11 celeron55 or, probably not really a shorthand but more like a nickname 17:11 Guest54 oh i see 17:13 Guest54 celeron55 anything i should keep in mind for rendering finnish text? or is it simply like all the other latin-like left-to-right languages? 17:13 Guest54 arabic will be hardest (letter shapes depend on surrounding letters) 17:13 Guest54 s/languages/scripts/ 17:13 Guest54 also i will not do any line-breaking, users should do it themselves 17:14 Guest54 i mean not any automatic line-breaking 17:14 celeron55 yeah nothing special. really the only special characters in addition to english are åöä/ÅÖÄ and those are generally done simply by adding the stuff above a, o, A or O. If they don't fit, then you might want to make the base letter smaller but that's not ideal 17:14 Guest54 oh, i have actually done that quite stupidly 17:14 celeron55 i believe that's how latin languages usually work 17:15 Guest54 basically, if i detect a combining character after a normal character i superimpose them 17:16 Guest54 you can see it here (scroll down to combining characters): https://mister-muffin.de/p/Lh5L.png 17:16 celeron55 and we do type them as whatever the unicode characters on that line that i typed was. i believe those don't use the combining characters but rather the special versions of the base characters 17:16 Guest54 it's stupid, but it works, so it can't be that stupid 17:16 Guest54 i can render both, composed and decomposed 17:16 celeron55 it looks ok 17:16 Guest54 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode_equivalence 17:17 Guest54 ok cool 17:17 Guest54 > the code point U+006E (the Latin lowercase "n") followed by U+0303 (the combining tilde "◌̃") is defined by Unicode to be canonically equivalent to the single code point U+00F1 (the lowercase letter "ñ" of the Spanish alphabet). 17:17 Guest54 both don't look exactly the same with my approach, but good enough 17:18 Guest54 like you see it is the same letter 17:18 celeron55 i wouldn't expect it to be a big deal. i'd assume it just looks like a slightly different font then 17:18 Guest54 it's actually a big deal because i have to know the general class of each codepoint 17:19 Guest54 because for example when you reverse text you have to put all the combining characters on the other side and so on 17:19 celeron55 ah yes of course. i was only thinking about the rendering 17:19 Guest54 well, in the rendering i simply don't advance the “cursor” if there is a combining mark to be rendered 17:20 Guest54 obviously it is wrong, but it also works well enough for now 17:20 Guest54 bidi text is the big thing not working yet 17:21 Guest54 do signs in minetest do anything interesting i might want to support? 17:22 celeron55 i'm not aware of them doing anything interesting 17:22 Guest54 well default signs don't 17:22 celeron55 then again there are many implementations 17:22 Guest54 i mean like signslib or so 17:23 celeron55 if i were you i'd take a look a the screenshots available here https://content.minetest.net/packages/?q=sign 17:23 celeron55 at* 17:23 Guest54 ok will do 17:24 celeron55 seems like there are 4 mods on there 17:24 Guest54 this claims unicode support: https://content.minetest.net/packages/Pyrollo/display_modpack/ 17:24 celeron55 the others do something else 17:24 celeron55 wait, 5 17:26 Guest54 haha it has a similar utf8 decoding function to mine, but the comment says “not tested” 17:27 celeron55 https://github.com/pyrollo/display_modpack/tree/master/font_metro 17:27 celeron55 looks like this is the font it uses 17:27 Guest54 thx 17:28 celeron55 and somewhere in here is the code that's able to utilize the font? not sure https://github.com/pyrollo/display_modpack/tree/master/font_api 17:28 Guest54 well, that's just a bunch of PNGs in a texmod trenchcoat 17:28 celeron55 yeah, it's super simple 17:28 Guest54 well, i render pixels to a file 17:28 Guest54 i just wanted to know my approach can not do something that the texmod approach can 17:29 Guest54 i won't do the texmod thing, otherwise i'll have a single texture for each codepoint 17:29 Guest54 that's … too much 17:29 Guest54 and also makes the fonts huge 17:30 celeron55 i've made a utf-8 decoder myself a long time ago, i'm trying to remember what for it might have been and where i might find it... 17:30 Guest54 utf8 is truly a clever encoding 17:30 celeron55 yeah i do remember it made a lot of sense 17:31 Guest54 like it's one of these times where “some talented person made it on a napkin” is something i believe ;) 17:31 Guest54 celeron55 i made this tool: http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/bin/unicode 17:31 Guest54 ; unicode 1f600-1f603 17:31 Guest54 1F600 😀    1F601 😁    1F602 😂    1F603 😃 17:31 Guest54 it helps if you want to see codepoints in terminal 17:34 Guest54 hmm, i am thinking of stuff like text shadows and so on but the more i think i say people should do whatever they want with the text once it is pixels 17:36 celeron55 maybe make a separate text effects mod? 17:37 Guest54 well the first thing i want to work on after publishing the unicode text renderer is actually making the engine better for generated textures. 17:37 celeron55 well that seems smart too 17:47 Guest54 as i have mentioned previously, for the kind of textures i am generating you can get very small files with deflated TGA. you can, for the general case, get smaller files using a good PNG optimizer, but even on a good machine that can take multiple seconds while deflate is instantaneous (and you probably will not call optipng from minetest anyway). 17:47 Guest54 so my plan is to make minetest support tga.z as a hack. the real work is not in doing that, but it making sure that any older client gets a non-deflated version. incidentally, this would make mcl_maps faster and reduce traffic for all mineclone2 servers. 17:48 Guest54 it's one of these hacks that if executed well are basically invisible from the outside 17:51 Guest54 AncientMariner i think this issue can be closed, the engine changed sending dynamic media from blocking to non-blocking, but i provided a fix to mcl2 and mcl5: https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues/3319 17:57 Guest54 AncientMariner, this can probably also be closed https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues/2876 see here https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/12906 17:58 Guest54 same for https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues/3137same for 17:58 Guest54 i mean https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues/3137 18:01 MTDiscord awesome Guest54, thanks for the heads up. i've added a reference and comment so we can retest this post release 18:02 MinetestBot 02[git] 04Desour -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix safeLoadFile() skipping 2 chars too much from the shebang (#13310) 132180dc1 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/2180dc14ef802961d50d5e5f7fccd2d3a2b9f647 (152023-03-27T18:01:05Z) 18:03 Guest54 AncientMariner well you can test it right now 18:04 MinetestBot 02[git] 04Desour -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix core.item_eat for same-item replace_with_item and split stacks be… 13ea095d3 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/ea095d3f69e7aadbcdbe5294e5dfc42ba2fe93bf (152023-03-27T18:02:23Z) 18:04 MinetestBot 02[git] 04Desour -> 03minetest/minetest: Always build locale files in CMAKE_SOURCE_DIR if building RUN_IN_PLAC… 130f496f1 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/0f496f1ed25a85d67709b25260aa304b901d0903 (152023-03-27T18:02:48Z) 18:05 MTDiscord "AncientMariner i think this issue can be closed, the engine changed sending dynamic media from blocking to non-blocking, but i provided a fix to mcl2 and mcl5: https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues/3319" is this due to go live with 5.7? 18:06 MTDiscord and in regards to this fix, i'm assuming it was already in our code already, so is the engine change the one that will fix it? 18:06 Guest54 no, the fix was in mcl2 18:06 MTDiscord this bug was raised 2 months ago and on master 18:06 MTDiscord when was it fixed? 18:07 Guest54 a year ago or so, ask the submitter for mcl version and minetest versions 18:07 MTDiscord it will likely be a master version, they have raised master specific stuff frequently and play on a master server 18:07 MTDiscord so i'm not sure the fix is working in this case 18:07 Guest54 well someone might have refucktored it again 18:08 Guest54 usually people like to delete code they do not understand 18:08 Guest54 it's basically the one thing every bad dev has in common :P 18:08 MTDiscord oof 18:08 Guest54 i'll look at it 18:08 MTDiscord i'm not a big fan of comments, but ideally we need context comments in, and people need to leave stuff they don't fully understand 18:08 Guest54 background was like this: in minetest 5.3 dynamic media sending was blocking, in minetest 5.4 dynamic media sending was blocking and required a callback (a weird thing for a blocking function to do, so the callback lizzy added did nothing), in minetest 5.5 dynamic media suddenly became non-blocking and this lead to the race condition of the map 18:08 Guest54 texture not being sent yet when the map was in player hands 18:09 Guest54 so i fixed it by writing code that handles all three cases, i can imagine someone might have replaced that with a “simpler” version haha 18:09 Guest54 lets see 18:09 Guest54 if that is the case 18:09 MTDiscord (i hope you're sitting comfortably, there will inevitably be a commit message that could annoy) 18:10 Guest54 lol why 18:10 MTDiscord always the way 18:10 Guest54 is it ”fix bug” or “break things” 18:10 Guest54 or ”it works now” 18:10 MTDiscord usually, when i'm thinking "why the fuck did they do that?" and i check git history, it usually gets worse 18:10 Guest54 the worst commit messages are the ones coming after a big feature that just say ”fix rarely occuring bug” without any details 18:10 Guest54 haha yes 18:11 MTDiscord a lot of people that say they are refactoring don't understand refactoring. they usually semantically change the code, when in reality, you shouldn't. you rename vars, pull out functions etc. 18:12 Guest54 haha i found the part where someone changed the json file to not be on a single line 18:12 MTDiscord only make those changes consciously 18:12 Guest54 and then afterwards realized it does not work because the code only reads the first line of the json file 18:12 MTDiscord ah, i think i know it 18:12 MTDiscord i handed them the fix 18:12 MTDiscord so it reads multiline 18:12 Guest54 well, the reason it is on a single line is 18:12 Guest54 lizzy did not know about the multiline *all 18:12 Guest54 and it's a generated file after all 18:13 Guest54 btw, the solution is shitty IMO, the real solution would be for each node definiton to contain the map color 18:13 MTDiscord i think that's fair 18:13 Guest54 then you don't need the pregeneration step 18:13 Guest54 and also instant compat with any mod willing to add that 18:13 Guest54 like _mcl_maps_colors or so 18:13 MTDiscord i think often we enrich data seperately when it should be on the data definition 18:13 Guest54 indeed 18:15 MTDiscord i'm trying to be at peace with the "i'd do it differently". i now try to do the "i'd do it differently, but i don't have time and this doesn't make me want to murder anybody" 18:15 MTDiscord and fortunately me brain forgets and moves on 18:16 Guest54 someone did indeed do weird stuff with mcl_maps, and replaced all tabs with spaces in the process, so the diff is shit 18:16 Guest54 or the other way around 18:16 Guest54 Michieal 18:18 Guest54 wow this is horrible 18:18 Guest54 just like you expected 18:19 MTDiscord yeah, he should have reformatted separately from the change too 18:19 MTDiscord it's a nightmare to review 18:20 Guest54 this is amazing 18:20 Guest54 the correct way is to reject this bullshit you know 18:20 MTDiscord so that file changed, and the *all got added at review stage 18:20 Guest54 like tell them to make a new non-bullshit patch 18:21 Guest54 i can't even see what was changed 18:21 Guest54 because EVERYTHING changed 18:21 MTDiscord i don't mind reformatting files to human readable, as long as it don't break things 18:21 MTDiscord but yeah, changes and format should be done different commits 18:21 Guest54 reformatting because some poser with a grudge hates tabs or spaces should never be done, it breaks git blame 18:22 Guest54 and like who tells you the person is not putting functional changes in the ”reformat” 18:24 Guest54 AncientMariner do you know about “git rebase -i”? 18:25 MTDiscord i do, and have used it in the past 18:25 MTDiscord some contributors aren't the most confident with git 18:25 Guest54 well, tell people making shit PRs to use it i guess? 18:25 MTDiscord some, you'll ask to fix things, and the world explodes 18:26 MTDiscord some people's git skills make me anxious 18:26 Guest54 hahahahahahahaha https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/pulls/2897#issuecomment-48022 18:26 Guest54 >  ERROR[Main]: generateImage(): Could not load image "mcl_maps_map_texture_5.tga" while building texture; Creating a dummy image 18:26 Guest54 > that's completely on the "magic" of dynamically_add_media() -- an engine function. 18:30 Guest54 AncientMariner i am *pretty* sure Michieal lied about this being an engine issue, but i can't say 100%. 18:33 Guest54 AncientMariner as expected, someone did something with mcl_maps and it used to work and now it does not. i blame everyone believing “this is an engine issue”. 18:34 appguru Guest54: Agreed. A statement like "that's completely on the 'magic' of dynamically_add_media() -- an engine function." doesn't exactly look believable to me 18:34 appguru it rather seems to imply that the author hasn't understood how dynamic media is implemented, otherwise they would be able to pinpoint the issue 18:34 appguru what seems most likely is that they introduced a good old race condition - relying on the media before it has arrived 18:34 Guest54 well, i used to understand it and then they changed it and then i needed to understand it again haha 18:35 appguru (where "they" is Michieal, not the core devs) 18:35 Guest54 well, the code that was changed (in the item frame rewrite, LOL) was the code i wrote that handled the case perfectly 18:35 Guest54 so after it was changed, it's suddenly an engine issue hehe 18:35 appguru This got to be a hecking joke. 18:36 appguru They are calling dynamic_add_media with an empty callback (function()end). 18:36 Guest54 nah, it's common for people to talk out of their ass using technobabble 18:36 Guest54 you read the joke until the end please 18:36 MTDiscord technobabble never dies 18:36 MTDiscord to be honest, when i read "engine issue", i see it as a euthemism for i don't fully understand it 18:36 MTDiscord it's been done by many folk 18:36 Guest54 nah, there are enough engine issues 18:36 appguru wait, perhaps I judged too early 18:36 Guest54 appguru you did, indeed 18:37 MTDiscord and usually there isn't some detail that says this function should do x, and in this context it does y, i have raised a ticket here 18:37 Guest54 i only fixed that thing after like 2 weeks of whining from other people who could not be bothered to fix it 18:37 appguru this is inside the lol, I retract my judgement 18:37 Guest54 the lol 18:37 Guest54 the last kind of technobabble i saw was when github accidentally (lol) uploaded their ssh private key to github (lol) 18:38 Guest54 commenters on the orange website were like “why didn't they use an HSM for their private key” and others were INSISTING it is not possible 18:38 Guest54 of course the ones who claimed it was impossibru could be proven wrong by looking at the documentation of openssh server 18:39 Guest54 it's the insistence that gets me 18:39 Guest54 like how can people be so sure about stuff if they never even read the docs? 18:39 Guest54 or the code, for that matter 18:40 Guest54 AncientMariner if the contributor has done other stuff, i'd suggest to be extra careful about “rewrites” lol 18:41 appguru Guest54: Still it seems to be the race condition I conjured 18:41 appguru There's a globalstep which updates the HUD 18:42 MTDiscord of course. most problems don't justify a rewrite 18:43 Guest54 unless you don't understand the existing code, that obviously justifies it hahaha 18:45 Guest54 AncientMariner: review hint for https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/pulls/3454/files … calling register_oxidation_abm() is entirely superfluous as far as i can see, you can just have the group if i am not mistaken 18:46 appguru ok now I think I finally figured it out 18:46 appguru my conjecture was flawed 18:47 appguru the real issue is that they don't seem to have understood the new 5.5 dynamic media API 18:47 appguru specifically "`callback`: function with arguments `name`, which is a player name" 18:47 appguru that is, if *any* client has received the media (and they are sending it to *all clients*), the player holding the map will have the HUD image appear etc etc 18:48 appguru what they should really be waiting for is (1) the player holding the map receiving the media (perhaps they should even only send it to that player) or (2) for item frames, all players having received the media 18:48 Guest54 well, in this case i must say i was lazy 18:48 Guest54 obviously i sent all maps to all players 18:48 appguru I implemented #2 in https://github.com/appgurueu/epidermis/blob/master/dynamic_add_media.lua 18:48 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2 -- Burned wood 18:49 Guest54 it is funny though, isn't it? 18:50 Guest54 as the code was waiting for the player receiving the media 18:50 Guest54 before it was changed 18:50 Guest54 unless i am mistaken 18:50 Guest54 appguru sending all maps to all players is the cheap way of making sure everyone has a copy or is there a downside beyond OMG HAX and traffic? 18:51 appguru well, OMG HAX and traffic are all I can think of right now 18:51 appguru and the fact that it makes using the callback *slightly* harder (you have to check which player got the map) 18:51 Desour to me it looks like the old code has exactly the same issue. are you sure you didn't just not get the error because you only tested in singleplayer? 18:52 appguru yeah, the old code either had the same issue or was never tested under 5.5 + multiplayer 18:52 Guest54 probably the latter 18:52 Guest54 (though i can remember it working) 18:53 Guest54 maybe i just didn't race well enough 18:53 Guest54 appguru do you have a writeup on how this works? 18:53 Guest54 like does xmaps maybe have the same issue? 18:53 appguru Guest54: what exactly? this issue? 18:54 Guest54 appguru could you look here? https://git.minetest.land/erlehmann/xmaps/src/branch/master/init.lua#L386 18:55 Guest54 i wonder if it is racy now 18:55 appguru yeah, looks like it has the same issue - sends to all players but completely ignores which players received it 18:55 Guest54 maybe i am a fraud! 18:55 Guest54 well, all players received it when the callback returns, am i doing it wrong? 18:55 appguru the callback is called *for each player* 18:55 Guest54 oh noes 18:55 Guest54 this is horrible 18:55 appguru yes lmao 18:56 appguru it is fine for the player with the best connection though lol 18:56 Guest54 like it's horrible API design, but it is horrible i did not look into it 18:56 appguru notably it is fine for singleplayer 18:57 Guest54 wait what if someone joins after i called dynamic send media 18:57 Guest54 https://github.com/appgurueu/epidermis/blob/master/dynamic_add_media.lua#L27 18:57 Guest54 lol just kick players haha 18:58 Guest54 AncientMariner so, to recap: no one was right, everyone was wrong, except appguru. 18:58 appguru I was also wrong until I was right lmao 18:59 appguru but it is basically a race condition 18:59 Guest54 TL;DR no one is right, everyone is wrong. 18:59 Guest54 but michieal is especially wrong for claiming it needs an engine change 19:00 Guest54 appguru should i used modlib in xmaps tell me or is this overkill 19:00 appguru modlib doesn't really help with this, you can take a look at the epidermis code - it hardly uses modlib 19:01 Guest54 well i know how to iterate over players 19:01 Guest54 or i think i know haha 19:11 Guest54 thanks appguru! 19:12 Guest54 appguru just to be clear on this: you need to iterate over every player that is connected, but new players get the texture on join? 19:13 appguru Guest54: correct (if the options are set accordingly) 19:13 Guest54 wdym 19:13 Guest54 explain pls 19:14 appguru "If `ephemeral`=false and `to_player` is unset the file is added to the media sent to clients on startup, this means the media will appear even on old clients if they rejoin the server." 19:14 appguru from the Lua API docs 19:14 Guest54 why should ephemeral ever be true for maps lol 19:14 appguru I should really contribute better dynamic_add_media docs to mt_docs once I find time lol 19:14 Guest54 well, i would use it for live updating maps 19:14 Guest54 but i fear it makes RAM go brrrrr 19:15 appguru it does, there's no dropping 19:15 appguru (client-side at least) 19:15 Guest54 yes which is why my maps are not the live-kind 19:15 Desour if you set ephemeral=false, the client will cache it in media cache (afaik). if your map textures are temporary, you don't want this 19:15 Guest54 i mean players have asked for live updating maps for a while 19:15 appguru the current docs aren't *wrong* or *too unspecific*, but they don't really help protect people from pitfalls and don't nudge them in the right direction / help with implementing something such as waiting for all players to receive the media 19:16 Guest54 it should have been dynamic_send_media_yes_i_really_know_what_i_am_doing() 19:16 appguru Desour: I'm wondering whether ideally caching and add to startup media should be decoupled 19:16 appguru That would require clientside changes though 19:17 appguru (clients would have to handle a flag that tells them that some media transferred at startup is not meant to be cached by them) 19:17 appguru because currently it is otherwise impossible to have ephemeral dynamic media e.g. on an entity without new players potentially receiving the entity before they receive the dynamic media 19:18 Desour some API to change all the join-sent media (including removing files) would be nice 19:20 Desour what you currently can do is send the new players the media dynamically and ephemeral when they join. so being able to delay client join would also suffice 19:20 appguru yeah 19:20 appguru bye! 19:21 Desour bye! 19:27 MTDiscord the problem with dynamic_send_media_yes_i_really_know_what_i_am_doing() is it will never be called 19:27 Guest54 as if 19:27 Guest54 the real problem is of course that everything is built on sand and software was a mistake 19:27 MTDiscord maybe dynamic_send_media_yes_i_really_think_know_what_i_am_doing() 19:28 Guest54 hehe 19:28 MTDiscord at the beginning, the universe was created, and it is widely considered to be a mistake 19:29 MTDiscord but yeah, my view on the oxidation stuff was it should be a group 19:29 MTDiscord hence why the pr wasn't merged, and it doesn't work 19:29 Guest54 AncientMariner btw i suggest to change the texture format in mcl_maps to A1R5G5B5 because than you get slightly smaller maps with 16bpp colors instead of 24bpp colors 19:29 Guest54 oh, it doesn't work either lol 19:29 Guest54 what does not work? 19:29 MTDiscord it tries to override a definition that doesn't exist 19:31 MTDiscord you sure you don't want to join our issue tracker? 19:31 Guest54 not right now 19:31 Guest54 i have experience with it, you know 19:31 MTDiscord your knowledge is pretty solid, and any context added to issues would help long term 19:31 MTDiscord up to you, of course 19:32 MTDiscord i mean, i know you were around a while ago 19:32 MTDiscord things have changed multiple times since, of course 19:32 Guest54 yes, and most of the crowd is still in the same mindset 19:32 MTDiscord ok, i understand if that would be frustrating 19:32 MTDiscord either way, i do value your knowledge and feedback 19:33 Guest54 look, as long as it is allowed to randomly refactor stuff *without* making sure it works, i will give you pointers and maybe open issues at some point again, but it is just tiring 19:33 MTDiscord i may not be able to do it all, or immediately 19:33 Guest54 and i do not know about you, but apparently it was allowed before 19:33 MTDiscord i get that, and the most important thing is you're in a good place 19:34 MTDiscord i cannot say i won't allow, or not allow anything, but people generally should justify a change 19:34 Guest54 yeah, most of the stuff is stuff that changed between me leaving and you coming to thte project 19:34 Guest54 like most of the stuff that annoys me right now 19:34 Guest54 super fast baby zombies for example 19:34 MTDiscord sometimes you may stuff you might not be keen on. my policy is generally if a PR improves things, it is mergable 19:35 MTDiscord that could be code quality, functionality, performance or compatibility 19:35 MTDiscord i recently fixed a lot of mob speeds 19:35 Guest54 i am not against having a lower bar for architectural issues, i mean gameplay-wise 19:35 MTDiscord it's still not right, but it's a step in the right direction 19:36 MTDiscord gameplay is everything to me 19:36 MTDiscord we are making a game afterall 19:36 MTDiscord if it plays well and performs well, that's great 19:37 Guest54 yeah, the thing is if it does not play well it annoys me to interact with a vocal minority of people on the bugtracker 19:38 Guest54 i just punched a polar bear in single player and it turned red and seems to glitch around now 19:38 Guest54 stuff like that 19:38 Guest54 it used to work i think 19:38 Guest54 or if you give a chicken seeds it will run around spreading LOVE 19:38 Guest54 making heart particle effects forever or so 19:39 Guest54 the pathfinding of the polar bear is held up by a single layer of snow hehehe 19:39 MTDiscord oh, i hate snow 19:39 MTDiscord it sometimes cannot be jumped over 19:39 Guest54 lol 19:39 Guest54 that used to work? 19:39 MTDiscord one day, i'm going to want to deal with that 19:40 MTDiscord i cannot say what used to work or not 19:40 Guest54 and if you manage to be directly above a mob (e.g. glass floor) it does pirouettes 19:40 MTDiscord yup 19:40 Guest54 if you want to understand my position a bit, boot up mineclone2 0.71 or earlier with minetest 5.4 and see what worked that now does not. the game had less features obviously. 19:41 Guest54 it's not that it was bug-free, quite the opposite 19:41 Guest54 but some stuff worked back then that now does not 19:41 MTDiscord i think from 0.71 to 0.72 there was a lot of work, mobs were reworked heavily 19:41 MTDiscord but it got in a dodgy state, cora took the call to roll back to a previous version 19:41 MTDiscord and since then, we have iterated on that 19:42 MTDiscord i think some things must have regressed in the past 19:42 MTDiscord and we'll have to unscrew them at some point 19:42 MTDiscord for me, there are too many issues on the main meta path 19:43 MTDiscord for example, nether is beyond brutal 19:43 Guest54 i suspect cora did not actually revert to a known-good state of 0.71 but to some intermediate state 19:43 Guest54 wdym 19:43 MTDiscord hoglins being boss level standard 19:43 Guest54 oh 19:43 Guest54 i never fought hoglins 19:43 MTDiscord you don't fight hoglins 19:43 MTDiscord you fly and take a lava bath 19:44 Guest54 mobs turning red briefly also used to work 19:44 MTDiscord https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues/3577 19:44 MTDiscord no cooldown, too fast, hit through walls 19:44 Guest54 LOL 19:44 MTDiscord and they knock you too high 19:45 MTDiscord so, being unable to survive nether even if l33t is probably a bigger priority than red flashing polar bears 🙂 19:45 Guest54 now when it becomes daylight every mob that does not like daylight is totally red 19:45 Guest54 red zombies 19:45 MTDiscord yup, they're burning 19:45 Guest54 well 19:45 Guest54 it looks bad compared to the earlier version 19:45 MTDiscord graphics isn't my strong point tbh 19:45 Guest54 like a red overlay over the entire thing is worse than … flames 19:45 Guest54 i guess 19:46 MTDiscord plays bad > looks bad 19:46 Guest54 also so many mobs spawn you don't even need to breed them nowadays 19:47 Guest54 also mobs just … stop doing anything if you are not close enough? 19:47 MTDiscord mobs spawning improvements have been made: https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/pulls/3356 19:47 Guest54 maybe that's wrong 19:47 MTDiscord more will likely be needed 19:47 MTDiscord they do stop, and probably need to 19:47 MTDiscord same as minecraft 19:47 MTDiscord performance wise 19:47 MTDiscord our servers often hit 500 mobs 19:48 MTDiscord and if all are operational, you're gonna have a biiiiig issue 19:49 Guest54 btw, the lava thing, i know why it was changed 19:49 MTDiscord this is our initial release notes: https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues/3571#issuecomment-65592 19:49 MTDiscord and priorities: https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/labels 19:49 Guest54 cora figured water can not exist next to nether lava and thus the ABM was to return early in the nether. the problem is it should not return early on the roof. 19:49 Guest54 like water in the nether is rare, but water on the nether roof is needed so you can have cobblestone there. 19:49 Guest54 the roof is void, not nether 19:50 MTDiscord fair point, it's niche, but the max_y probably needs tweaking on the abm 19:50 Guest54 yes, it should be nether max not end min 19:51 Guest54 i mean actually it should be everywhere, but then the dimension full of lava makes fires burn more slowly due to abm spam 19:51 Guest54 only the nether roof thing is meaningfully affecting gameplay right now though 19:51 Guest54 are villages now generated smarter btw? 19:51 MTDiscord still a very niche play style 19:52 MTDiscord village generation needs to be reworked 19:52 MTDiscord i had fixed it so it doesn't spawn on top of snowy trees 19:52 MTDiscord and bell platforms aren't huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge 19:52 MTDiscord but it needs to be rewritten from scratch 19:52 MTDiscord it stops the world for gen 19:52 MTDiscord it's really poorly optimized 19:53 MTDiscord for example, schemas place on 1 block and platform up or down to it 19:53 Guest54 you should really add some gameplay tips btw 19:53 MTDiscord rather than it finding optimal height 19:53 Guest54 “one night in the nether equals eight nights in the overworld” when a player switches to the bed item in the nether 19:53 MTDiscord "git gud, scrub" 19:53 Guest54 or ”kill a villager to make it drop its entire trading inventory” 19:53 Guest54 “the best way to find diamonds is to mine straight down” 19:54 MTDiscord i'm not sure if they are differences or bugs 19:54 MTDiscord ha 19:54 MTDiscord mining straight down is a bad idea 19:54 Guest54 well 19:54 MTDiscord my g/f played for a little bit 19:54 MTDiscord she got full iron 19:54 Guest54 i once witnessed a player being stuck in the end 19:54 MTDiscord then she dug down 19:54 MTDiscord took a lava bath, never played again 19:54 Guest54 and then someone told them they should just mine straight down until they find end ore because with that you can teleport out of the end 19:54 Guest54 it was very funny 19:54 MTDiscord ooof 19:55 MTDiscord (found the oysterity player) 19:55 Guest54 hehe 19:55 Guest54 i always tell newbies that other players lie, cheat and steal 19:55 Guest54 “you can tame a dog by leftclicking it with a bone” 19:55 Guest54 (that one is funny) 19:56 MTDiscord haha, you're a bad, bad man 19:56 MTDiscord i cannot grief online, i try to build others up 19:56 MTDiscord i absolutely don't mine the bottom sugarcane 19:56 Guest54 i am not a man, i am pinochhio 19:56 MTDiscord i leave my farm unprotected 19:56 Guest54 i build farms on the nether roof 19:57 MTDiscord ooooh, that's such a big... nose you have there 19:57 Guest54 in case anyone accidentally gets stuck there 19:57 Guest54 last thing i built was a portal in the nether leading to a room that looks like an underground farm in the overworld 19:57 Guest54 like, you go into the nether portal and come out in a place looking like the overworld 19:58 Guest54 once, on a space station on a server i made fake mini biomes, like very small pyramids 19:58 Guest54 and a fake nether hidden behind a fake nether portal that was just a purple banner thingy 19:58 Guest54 we also had fake end there 19:59 MTDiscord interesting 19:59 Guest54 you dropped down a hole in a very small end portal that was also fake 19:59 Guest54 into a room that looked like platforms surrounded by black concrete 19:59 Guest54 infinity room 19:59 Guest54 let's see if i can find a screenshot 20:01 Guest54 AncientMariner https://mister-muffin.de/p/19iw.jpg 20:01 Guest54 AncientMariner https://mister-muffin.de/p/x4Kj.jpg 20:02 Guest54 AncientMariner https://mister-muffin.de/p/GLLE.jpg 20:03 MTDiscord damn, you put some time into that 20:03 Guest54 AncientMariner the end https://mister-muffin.de/p/rubh.jpg 20:04 Guest54 i did not do it alone, but a lot of it 20:04 Guest54 the space station was built by someone else 20:04 Guest54 and it just looked boring before hehe 20:05 Guest54 did you ever do banner art? 20:05 MTDiscord i don't think i understand art 🙂 20:06 MTDiscord or cosmetics 20:06 MTDiscord i'm mr functional 20:08 Guest54 well i gave people duped shulkers full with banners that have letters on it 20:08 Guest54 i hope i find another dupe 20:08 Guest54 or a new way to break bedrock lol 20:12 MTDiscord i think i know a way... 20:12 MTDiscord but i ain't saying 🙂 20:16 Guest54 btw, bonemeal does not seem to work on saplings, did you notice? 20:18 MTDiscord nah 20:18 Guest54 it used to work 20:18 Guest54 at some point 20:18 MTDiscord a developer was going to work on bonemealing, but are not involved anymore 20:18 Guest54 did they … refactor it? ;) 20:19 MTDiscord they were thinking of... refactoring it 20:19 Guest54 oh it maybe works now 20:19 Guest54 just needs a lot 20:19 Guest54 but it did not work on mangroves last time i checked 20:19 MTDiscord idk 20:22 MTDiscord mangroves is a whole different thing 20:22 MTDiscord i think there leaves also don't rot due to an incorrect param2 20:24 Guest54 were they refactored lol? 20:29 MTDiscord i think it requires a schematic change 20:29 MTDiscord i always seem schema change, and go, oh look, we have other tickets 🙂 20:36 Guest54 hi cora 20:36 cora hello 20:36 Guest54 i apologize, appguru told me that i dun goofed with mcl_maps and xmaps 20:36 Guest54 the callback is called once for each player 20:36 Guest54 not when all players have the map 20:36 cora uh ok ? 20:37 Guest54 this means some players in multiplayer will not see a map on a wall 20:37 Guest54 but michieal did not understand it 20:37 Guest54 and claimed it was an engine issue 20:37 cora alright i'm not in mcl2 anymore 20:37 Guest54 i.e. was talking out of their ass 20:37 Guest54 i am telling you that because it affects everything with dynamic media 20:38 Guest54 the callback is once for each player 20:38 cora i see 20:38 Guest54 so it works for the fastest player 20:38 Guest54 e.g. singleplayer 20:38 Guest54 in other news, cora: https://mister-muffin.de/p/F0am.png :) 20:39 cora nice 20:39 Guest54 give me some demoscene pixel art effects lol 20:40 Guest54 rotozoom hehe 20:42 Guest54 https://seancode.com/demofx/ 20:48 Guest54 AncientMariner is it true that you became maintainer of mineclone2 through a vote on the issue tracker that was running for only 24 hours? https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues/3047 20:48 Guest54 > Surprisingly, we barely had votes 20:48 Guest54 what a surprise lol 20:50 cora yea classic ... ima leave here though discussing it with them is not going anywhere 20:50 cora just figured i might catch you here 20:53 MTDiscord I think discussions on this topic have been done to death. I'd rather not discuss it 20:53 Guest54 AncientMariner well, even if you are capable, the way you became maintainer seems like a mockery of democracy. i am not saying projects need to be democratic, but i would have rejected such a vote. 20:54 Guest54 even if people voted for me 20:55 Guest54 i don't want to discuss anything, i simply wanted to express that i was unaware of this and i find it despicable 20:56 MTDiscord It is up to you how you feel about it. Only 1 active member of the dev team was opposed to it. However, it was run or rerun is irrelevant. 20:56 Guest54 it is indeed 20:56 Guest54 the thing is, that's *exactly* the kind of drama for which i avoid the issue tracker on that project 20:57 Guest54 just so you know 20:57 MTDiscord That is your choice 20:57 MTDiscord I don't think any of that stuff was fun for anybody 20:58 Guest54 i have a question though, i don't get why kneekoo made a sham vote instead of just deciding it on their own?! 20:58 Guest54 like many projects are run with a benevolent dictatorship model 20:58 Guest54 and idea? 20:58 Guest54 any 20:58 MTDiscord As i said, I don't want to discuss it 21:00 Guest54 you don't need to, but now you know that I know that the project did not become less toxic in the time i was away 21:00 Guest54 it's not your fault btw 21:00 Guest54 good luck! 21:02 MTDiscord you will make a decision with what information you have, there is a lot of stuff you're not aware of that i do not want to go into 21:02 MTDiscord ultimately, that was 4 months ago 21:02 Guest54 oh, drama is always complex 21:02 MTDiscord contributors are mostly happy, and respectful 21:02 Guest54 and more nuanced 21:03 MTDiscord the environment is welcoming to new contributors 21:03 MTDiscord and the focus is on code 21:03 MTDiscord i think the environment is the opposite of toxic 21:03 Guest54 it can't happen that fast, even if you have a different leadership style 21:03 Guest54 culture builds up over time 21:03 MTDiscord you are very right 21:04 MTDiscord thing have improved over time 21:04 MTDiscord and for the record, even prior to me taking over, things improved in some regards too 21:04 Guest54 also have you chosen to unbreak the furniture mod and the texture packs in some way in the soon-to-happen next release? if you do not want to deliver the textures in the zip file, i think the only thing you need for it is a mod that copies the old textures to a folder on game startup. 21:05 Guest54 that way you avoid symlinks 21:06 MTDiscord i hear what you are saying, and i do not dislike your suggestion 21:06 MTDiscord i will think about it 21:06 Guest54 the easiest way would be to do it the other way around btw 21:06 Guest54 just make a script that copies them into a single folder for texture pack creators 21:06 MTDiscord rudzik i think doesn't seem to be responding on their issue tracker 21:07 Guest54 well, you can't expect anyone to fix stuff that has worked fine for a year or so 21:07 Guest54 if you break it 21:07 Guest54 no idea if that person is still making minetest mods 21:07 MTDiscord i think they are from russia 21:07 MTDiscord and there are a few from russia that are not available for various reasons 21:07 MTDiscord i hope they are ok, ofc 21:07 Guest54 that is unfortunate yes 21:08 Guest54 putin huilo 21:08 MTDiscord i don't really want to get into politics neither 21:08 MTDiscord cannot assume views of people based on their leaders etc 21:09 MTDiscord but there are many talented software folk, and i hope they are ok 21:09 Guest54 russians i know should be safely abroad, surely they have *very* different views 21:09 Guest54 it is the thing with people who leave their countries of origin, usually they don't like some things about them 21:10 MTDiscord but either way 21:10 MTDiscord the optimal strategy would have been to work with the mod author 21:10 MTDiscord but they are unavailable, that makes it more challenging 21:10 Guest54 IMO the optimal strategy would have been to make sure you don't need to 21:10 MTDiscord as i said, i'm going to have to think about it 21:11 MTDiscord i don't agree with your view, you are very keen on backwards compatibility, and i respect that, but i don't think you can allow it preventing you from making decisions you need to 21:11 Guest54 i am keen on maintaining compatibility when the reason compatibility is broken is a simple name change which can be worked around in every case 21:12 Guest54 changing names of textures or items is something that even before your time as maintainer has caused issues with other mods again and again 21:12 MTDiscord yes 21:12 MTDiscord the perfect strategy was if things were named correctly first time around 21:13 MTDiscord based on standards advocated by the framework 21:13 MTDiscord but we cannot change the past 21:13 Guest54 the second-best strategy is to not let aesthetic concerns trump technical concerns (compatibility, not breaking user worlds) 21:13 Guest54 and usually it is super easy 21:13 MTDiscord aesthetic and manageability are two different things 21:13 MTDiscord i am a maintainer of a game, you are a mod author 21:13 Guest54 you should be aware that regardless of your justification, it will reflect upon you if you break every texture pack with the next release, after all you are project lead 21:13 MTDiscord you have a different perspective to me, and i respect it 21:14 MTDiscord but your desire to not want to change things isn't exactly impartial 21:14 Guest54 it is not that i do not want to change things, that is misrepresenting it 21:15 MTDiscord i mean, if it reflects upon me, my reputation was mud before people even knew me, i don't think many gave me a chance, and that is up to them. i can not and will not live for others validation, and i guess that has been made easier for me 🙂 21:15 Guest54 it's just that i know how compat works and i see that any idiot that does not (not you, people who refucktor things) claims it's “too hard” 21:16 Guest54 i was maintainer of a game and i believe the one time we broke something 5 minutes after we noticed we rewrote history to have it never happen 21:16 Guest54 and were more careful every time afterwards 21:16 MTDiscord you don't give yourself enough credit, you are a smart guy with a great analytical brain. you see shit many people miss 21:16 MTDiscord when people miss that, they ain't shit, or bad, just learning 21:16 Guest54 no, they usually don't care to look 21:17 Guest54 i have gotten that type of statement a lot 21:17 MTDiscord in your view, some know and ignore it, and that is a problem 21:17 Guest54 the thing is, i am also only cooking with water 21:17 Guest54 it is just that when i add a feature breaking compat is a tool of last resort, not of first resort 21:17 MTDiscord that was your takeaway 21:17 Guest54 the ”rewrite everything” crowd has it as a tool of first resort 21:18 MTDiscord i've been a dev for over a decade, i have my own experience and own learnings 21:18 MTDiscord i also don't let scar tissue prevent me from making the right calls 21:18 Guest54 then surely you have dealt with abominations from upstream, e.g. imagemagick 21:18 MTDiscord most of the worst places i have worked created process over scar tissue that sucked the life out of anyone knew until everyone left was dead inside 21:19 MTDiscord to improve some things, you have to break some things 21:19 Guest54 i know only two processes that together constitute a hill i am willing to die on 21:19 MTDiscord and that doesn't justify breakage 21:19 Guest54 first: if someone new joins the team, everyone has a veto on them 21:19 MTDiscord but you cannot avoid it if it is the right call, you can mitigate it 21:19 Guest54 second: every change needs to be reviewed and the reviewer needs to be adversarial (i.e. try to prove the code is shit) 21:19 MTDiscord i disagree 21:19 MTDiscord mcla, with all due respect, was probably solid, but it was not developer friendly 21:20 Guest54 in my experience, both together, regardless of the skill level of the people involved, create a very good baseline for making quality software 21:20 MTDiscord and the review processes were too long, no one was involved, and you didn't continue it 21:20 MTDiscord it had it's own flaws 21:20 MTDiscord obviously i don't know all the details, but it wasn't perfect, and you cannot claim everything it did was right 21:20 Guest54 the reason i did not continue it was because of illnesses 21:21 MTDiscord and the successor? 21:21 MTDiscord was anyone left to handover to? 21:21 Guest54 there was no successor, we were 3 (more like 2.5) people and you can't do that with less 21:22 MTDiscord yup 21:22 MTDiscord the point i'm making is your adversarial culture doesn't welcome people 21:22 MTDiscord it doesn't build people up and get their buy in 21:22 Guest54 also i once checked, per person mcla merged about the same amount of code that mcl2 had, only that mcl2 had about 1/3 of the commits dealing with regressions from earlier and mcla did not. 21:22 MTDiscord it kills off anyone potential successor 21:22 MTDiscord it isn't a positive culture for longevity 21:22 MTDiscord mcla was always a joke of a projec 21:23 Guest54 i actually work at a company where it worked very well. basically, any review is a knowledge transfer. 21:24 MTDiscord but people are paid 21:24 MTDiscord paid to put up with bs 21:24 MTDiscord confident in their abilities 21:24 Guest54 AncientMariner, what killed it off was that requiring two approvals for external contributors when you have three people doing work demotivates people. 21:24 Guest54 (and also i took too long for reviews, because i was not well) 21:24 Guest54 oh no, no one is confident, confidence is dangerous 21:24 MTDiscord the process was more than the capabilities the project had 21:24 MTDiscord and you didn't have enough people with buy in for that process 21:25 MTDiscord so it was folly 21:25 Guest54 well, it was the bare minimum i would do to make quality software. minetest is run the same way, may i say. 21:25 Guest54 we did not even have proper tests 21:25 MTDiscord quality software 21:25 Guest54 well, quality in terms of “don't break my world” 21:25 MTDiscord but people don't play it 21:25 Guest54 it was never on cdb 21:26 MTDiscord they played what you would perceive as shitty mcl5 and now mcl2 21:26 MTDiscord software is pointless if people don't use it 21:26 Guest54 i don't doubt you are totally into having lots of users, but we forked it because we wanted to play, not because we were into having fans 21:26 MTDiscord you're not breaking the worlds of players that don't exist 21:27 MTDiscord you had the support of a post-beta, with the product of an alpha 21:27 MTDiscord "use" doesn't necessarily mean people have to play it though. If you can just get something merged elsewhere that does have a playerbase, sometimes that can be a win too. 21:27 MTDiscord fair point 21:27 Guest54 yes indeed, many of the contributions to mcla were merged into mineclone2 when cora became maintainer 21:27 Guest54 and they had the added benefit of being solid 21:28 MTDiscord i read the post where she stepped away from mcla 21:28 MTDiscord it wasn't complimentary of the process tbf 21:29 MTDiscord i don't like to be critical, or have this adversarial tone 21:29 MTDiscord but after we talked, you carried on saying we didn't care 21:29 Guest54 i understand it, you want to build a community 21:29 MTDiscord and that was the opposite of what was said 21:29 Guest54 i don't. 21:29 Guest54 i mean, is that true? 21:30 Guest54 i care more about not annoying players or downstream consumers of my software than i care about not annoying developers. 21:30 MTDiscord you want my motive? 21:30 Guest54 i think you made it very clear, you want to not annoy people so much they leave over QA concerns 21:31 MTDiscord to help make gaming great on linux, to ensure people that have it, can install and play something great, and they don't have to go back to m$ 21:31 MTDiscord to ensure that people that don't have money can play with family on poor hardware 21:31 MTDiscord to give a little bit of joy to people 21:31 Guest54 yes, that's good! 21:31 MTDiscord it's all about the end users, and server owners 21:32 MTDiscord and yes, i know mod wise, we're not in a great place 21:32 MTDiscord and i've heard the criticisms, many valid 21:32 MTDiscord and i want to improve things 21:32 MTDiscord but i also know we have a team of 5-8 21:32 MTDiscord and nigh on 800 issues 21:32 Guest54 just for me part of that is to go to great lengths to *not* break existing users stuff or their installed mods if you can avoid it with a bit of work (e.g not renaming that stupidly named item or figuring out how to provide fallback texture names). 21:32 MTDiscord so you gotta be ruthless and prioritise 21:33 MTDiscord the decision was not something i proposed, it was something discussed by the team 21:33 MTDiscord and more where keen on it that not 21:33 Guest54 well you could prioritize the concerns of people over texture packs https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues/3392#issuecomment-66059 21:33 MTDiscord ultimately, it was a team decision, and we went ahead 21:33 Guest54 well, devs usually don't have a good grip on the community unless they are part of it and it is very small. 21:34 MTDiscord most of those that contributed often speak about user 21:34 MTDiscord and give a shit about their experiences 21:34 Guest54 indeed 21:37 MTDiscord but yeah, that issue was discussed over discord, 2 prs, and 1 or 2 issues 21:38 MTDiscord it started before my time 21:38 MTDiscord but we made that call, and i will happily defend it 21:41 Guest54 well, i am not saying don't do it, i am saying doing it should involve not breaking stuff 21:41 Guest54 it's easier to change things than to change things without breaking other things in software 21:42 MTDiscord completely 21:42 MTDiscord and i and many others didn't consider dependencies on image names until it cropped up 21:42 Guest54 which is funny because every texture pack ever works like that 21:42 MTDiscord i'm not embarrassed to say i missed that. it was a learning experience 21:43 MTDiscord i'll give you a hint 21:43 MTDiscord i've never used a texture pack 21:43 Guest54 well if all of you missed it, i don't get why you defend the original decision 21:43 MTDiscord i only played bedrock vanilla before getting involved 21:43 Guest54 btw, if you change textures with ”default” in the name, you'll suddenly have *less* texture packs working, not more. 21:43 MTDiscord i never used a mc mod 21:43 Guest54 just as a hint 21:43 MTDiscord and i'm new into gaming and mt 21:43 MTDiscord don't assume people know everything 21:44 MTDiscord well, it is good to know that 21:45 Guest54 you can't have it both ways, either the original decision was made justly and needs to be defended or it was made on incomplete information and may be reconsidered or deferred if there exist insurmountable obstacles 21:45 Guest54 or at least ones which are perceived as such 21:45 MTDiscord am i not talking to you now? 21:45 Guest54 indeed 21:45 MTDiscord don't you think i'm trying to take on new insights 21:45 Guest54 i do 21:45 MTDiscord i could have easily dismissed this 21:45 Guest54 btw, the digging animation on shulkers is broken, dig a shulker to see it 21:46 Guest54 it was not in the past 21:46 MTDiscord dude, we have 800 odd bugs 21:46 MTDiscord the past is gone 21:46 MTDiscord this is day 0 21:46 MTDiscord if you want to point out every bug in mcl2, you'll be here a long time 21:47 Guest54 nah, i just thought you did not know 21:47 MTDiscord can i just post you a link to my issue tracker 21:47 Guest54 i will post issues and not bring them on irc in the future 21:47 MTDiscord if it's in there, it won't get forgotten 21:47 Guest54 i just noticed it 21:47 MTDiscord if it is in here, it might 21:47 MTDiscord i'm dyslexic, my brain loses information easily 21:47 Guest54 you can't really forget it, everyone interacting with shulkers sees it every time 21:47 Guest54 like, it will come up eventually 21:47 MTDiscord i haven't interacted with a shulker yet, lol 21:47 MTDiscord but yes 21:47 Guest54 uh 21:48 MTDiscord i've never completed mc or been to the end (in mc) 21:48 MTDiscord (i can imagine that will trigger you) 21:48 Guest54 have you played the game much? 21:48 Guest54 nah 21:48 Guest54 i have never defeated the dragon, for there being no dragon to defeat when i got there 21:48 MTDiscord i've played A LOT 21:48 Guest54 i found a dragon egg though 21:48 Guest54 and duped it a lot 21:49 MTDiscord but it's an open sandbox game 21:49 MTDiscord i don't really want to beat the dragon 21:49 MTDiscord because then it's done 21:49 Guest54 and then told a player on a server if they would plant A LOT of trees i would give them THE dragon egg 21:49 MTDiscord i don't want the magic gone yet 🙂 21:49 Guest54 it was hilarous to see how they could not figure out how to pick it up 21:49 MTDiscord i will get there 21:49 Guest54 nah, it's only done when you say it is done 21:50 MTDiscord by the time i get there, a lot of overworld and nether bugs will be squashed 21:50 Guest54 anyways, i noticed the shulker thing only because i just tried to load an old world to see if it is broken and all my lapis became blue dye and all my villagers lost their jobs. probably not your fault, but that's the kind of thing i would not like to inflict on some kid. 21:50 Guest54 oh also one record i had in inventory became an unknown item 21:50 MTDiscord lapis is convertable 21:50 MTDiscord put it in your crafting table 21:50 MTDiscord or invent 21:50 MTDiscord and you can convert it back 21:50 Guest54 which means someone forget to add an alias i guess 21:51 MTDiscord villagers shouldn't lose their job if they have been traded with 21:51 Guest54 but if they have not? 21:51 MTDiscord but they will refind job blocks or beds which they never used 21:51 Guest54 but old villages *do not have* job blocks 21:51 MTDiscord then you drop the job blocks again, and they'll retake a job 21:51 Guest54 unless i am mistaken about what kind of blocks are job blocks 21:52 MTDiscord basically villagers were unimplemented 21:52 MTDiscord it was the thing that got me contributing 21:52 MTDiscord i wrote the code for that 21:52 Guest54 you mean like, they went from implemented to un-implemented? 21:52 MTDiscord lol, no 21:52 MTDiscord do you play mc? or have you? 21:52 Guest54 so it is your fault after all, what a surprise :D 21:52 Guest54 never. i have seen youtube videos. 21:53 MTDiscord villagers will take a job based on a job block, if you remove it, they give up job unless they are traded 21:53 MTDiscord they will also take a bed 21:53 MTDiscord if it's removed (which they didn't used to) 21:53 MTDiscord check the wiki for job blocks 21:54 MTDiscord villagers were skinned cows 21:54 MTDiscord with a formspec 21:54 MTDiscord they were barely implemented 21:54 Guest54 well a friend of mine trapped some for trading 21:54 Guest54 it is unfortunate if they become nitwits 21:54 MTDiscord now people can do meta stuff like destroy and create job blocks to hunt mending villagers 21:54 Guest54 i see 21:54 MTDiscord they don't become nitwits 21:54 MTDiscord unemployed 21:55 MTDiscord 1 in 100 chance of becoming a nitwit on birth 21:55 Guest54 oh i see 21:55 Guest54 they look the same ig 21:55 MTDiscord destroy and recreate the job blocks and they'll try to take the closest 21:55 MTDiscord (they do look the same) 21:55 MTDiscord but basically, villagers used to wonder around, fall off cliffs and die 21:56 MTDiscord you'd find a villager and there was a good 80% chance all villagers had leapt to their death 21:56 MTDiscord they now go to work, bed, and town bell at lunch 21:56 MTDiscord the changes have kept villagers safe in many ways 🙂 21:56 MTDiscord and was why i did it 21:56 MTDiscord if you play it, you'll realise it's a massive improvement 21:57 MTDiscord "so it is your fault after all, what a surprise :D" i remember when you ranted at a dev for killing your sheep 21:57 MTDiscord don't you go changing 🙂 21:58 Guest54 well i think it was a friend of mine 21:58 Guest54 i am not sure 21:58 Guest54 but we had a whole pen of sheep 21:59 MTDiscord but if you find any issues on migration to new versions, please let me know 21:59 MTDiscord i would like old worlds to be convertable 21:59 MTDiscord and any feedback, i'll ensure we have tickets for 22:00 MTDiscord bu the reason the villagers lost their textures is because they had a job block that got destroyed previously 22:00 MTDiscord you probably moved it 22:00 Guest54 i doubt it 22:00 Guest54 they had no job blocks in that old version 22:00 Guest54 they simply did not exist 22:00 MTDiscord the code will now check job block is there at the place stored on the meta 22:01 MTDiscord how did they get their job then? 22:01 Guest54 villagers used to spawn with a job 22:01 MTDiscord ah, that's bad 22:01 Guest54 i check it again 22:01 MTDiscord btw, i hate to spoil it to you 22:01 MTDiscord but villagers no longer randomly spawn 22:02 Guest54 i get it, that's okay 22:02 Guest54 you were right, if the villager was traded with it keeps its job 22:02 Guest54 thanks! 22:03 Guest54 btw, if you play the game and you see unaligned textures, does it not bug you? 22:03 Guest54 maybe i am weird like that 22:04 MTDiscord errmm, if i noticed it, it probably wouldn't look good 22:04 MTDiscord depends how bad 22:04 MTDiscord but it sounds like a low priority issue 22:04 MTDiscord a cosmetic 🙂 22:05 MTDiscord but of course, that is just my opinion 22:05 MTDiscord many other devs may disagre 22:05 Guest54 i figured maybe it annoys me more than most 22:06 MTDiscord i don't tell devs what to work on, so they choose what bugs them the most 22:06 MTDiscord it's ultimately what brings us in contributors 22:06 MTDiscord "oh gosh, i hate it, where is the codebase" 22:07 Guest54 well, that's a problem in itself. i noticed that there exist quite a number of interesting projects that are basically finished 22:07 Guest54 and then people fork them hehe 22:07 Guest54 btw, i am pretty sure old spawneggs do not survive to newer versions 22:07 Guest54 like they become unknown items 22:07 MTDiscord oh right, i thought someone added in support for the old style? 22:07 Guest54 no idea 22:07 MTDiscord but i think they're colourised 22:08 Guest54 it's simply an item name change i think 22:11 MTDiscord if you have a screenshot, or text warnings, please fire them across 22:11 MTDiscord so i can raise a bug 22:11 MTDiscord this was a 0.71 world? 22:13 Guest54 let me see 22:15 Guest54 i mean you can automate this thing actually 22:16 Guest54 make some mod that places every node and chests with every item 22:16 Guest54 see if it survives each PR 22:16 Guest54 for the future i mean 22:18 MTDiscord that is a good idea 22:18 MTDiscord probably helps to go back in time too 22:18 Guest54 well then you need to make it on a previous version 22:18 Guest54 the problem is that new code might work with old worlds 22:19 Guest54 but e.g. mobs code crashes if you go back to the old world (because the new one ruined it) 22:19 Guest54 so you can not go back practically 22:20 MTDiscord well, i hope it doesn't crash, but it would be a learning experience 22:20 MTDiscord can always create world as old one, and move it forward 22:21 Guest54 it does crash because old code tries to access properties that are not there anymore and the new one can handle the old properties but the old one not the new 22:21 Guest54 so nil crash basically 22:22 Guest54 something gets compared to nil all the time in lua 22:27 Guest54 AncientMariner the item that does not carry over properly is mobs_mc:zombie_horse 22:29 Guest54 so it is not all spawn eggs 22:30 MTDiscord if you can give me the stack trace, it would be appreciated 22:30 Guest54 it is not a stack trace, there is simply an unknown item 22:30 Guest54 could it be that zombie horse got removed? 22:30 MTDiscord ah, ok 22:30 f-a playing Repixture, how do I craft a pickaxe? 22:31 Guest54 repixture is the game where i think minetest should have automine hehe 22:31 Guest54 f-a you need string 22:31 f-a oh 22:31 Guest54 like from grass 22:31 f-a oh/ II 22:31 Guest54 but repixture actually shows you what you can craft 22:31 f-a thanks Guest54 22:31 Guest54 just go outside and touch grass hehe 22:31 f-a it does, but I haven’t yet got string 22:31 Guest54 maybe it is named differently let me see 22:31 f-a I will go outside and touch ass, thanks for the tip Guest54 22:32 Guest54 repixture is so cute 22:32 Guest54 is there still no public server for it? 22:32 f-a I play it locally 22:33 f-a mh wait I can make fiber from grass. Maybe I need to pick up more grass? 22:33 MTDiscord used to be, i dont think it exists anymore 22:33 MTDiscord ah, i see. egg textures got removed oct 2022 22:34 Guest54 hmm 22:34 Guest54 rp_default:fiber exists 22:34 Guest54 AncientMariner really, the problem is probably that there is no zombie horse anymore. other spawn eggs are fine. 22:35 Guest54 i mean fine as in they all look the same and whatever 22:35 Guest54 i liked i more when it was a picture of the mob being spawned, but that's not EXACTLY LIKE MINECRAFT 22:36 f-a Guest54: sorry but I think I need more help. fiber, plus what? 22:36 Guest54 f-a fiber, wood, stick 22:37 Guest54 like wooden plank 22:37 Guest54 and you need 4 fiber 22:37 f-a ah, silly me 22:37 MTDiscord yeah, i'm not a big fan of obsessing about every mc detail 22:37 f-a thaks 22:37 MTDiscord as long as it functions in a similar manner 22:37 MTDiscord with a similar meta 22:37 Guest54 AncientMariner my standard is “can i do the thing in this mc youtube video or not” 22:38 MTDiscord i think that is reasonable 22:38 Guest54 which is the reason why for example messing with fire algorithm is verboten 22:38 Guest54 fire spread must be exactly like mc so that builds do not burn down accidentally 22:38 MTDiscord fire needs to be nerfed 22:38 MTDiscord i've only found 1 woodland mansion in mc 22:38 MTDiscord and it was a burnt out shell 22:38 Guest54 not really, what needs to be nerfed is the number of thunderstorms 22:39 Guest54 also fire can be disabled anyways 22:39 MTDiscord i was so excited to find the woodland mansion 22:39 f-a is there a help section where I can consult recipes etc.? 22:39 MTDiscord and so dissappointed when there was FA left 22:39 Guest54 f-a in your inventory, click the question mark at the top right 22:39 MTDiscord i'll ensure we have a configuration setting: idonothatemyself 22:40 Guest54 f-a the question mark leads to a list of all recipes with all prerequisites 22:40 f-a thanks