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wsor4035 |
like the kde reference in that leave message "Part: Konversation terminated!" |
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| 18:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> What are the chances we EVER see a luasocket implementation? |
| 18:36 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> An API for it |
| 18:38 |
ROllerozxa |
isn't it possible to load luasockets in an insecure environment? |
| 18:39 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> see https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10120 |
| 18:40 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> chances are someone needs to implement it. || at least it didnt get paramatted || |
| 18:52 |
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| 18:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> Isnt that assuming they have luasockets? |
| 19:00 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> I more mean... built in support |
| 19:00 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Yeah, like, having an API for luasockets sort of requires that you have luasockets... |
| 19:01 |
sfan5 |
"a luasocket implementation" sounds like importing luasockets into Minetest to me |
| 19:01 |
sfan5 |
while "built in support" is more what I'd call the thing described in the issue |
| 19:01 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> Notice the "if installed" in "First-class support for luasockets (if installed) in mod API" |
| 19:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> That is indeed what i mean sfan |
| 19:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> The possibilities that having luasockets would be absolutely endless |
| 19:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> "if installed" is how many of MT's dependencies work, like gettext, postgresql, luajit, etc. |
| 19:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> That was bad Grammar |
| 19:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> X2 |
| 19:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> Anyway. |
| 19:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> Wdym warr |
| 19:03 |
sfan5 |
well lua modules are loaded at runtime so it's different from the other libs we have |
| 19:03 |
sfan5 |
but yeah same concept |
| 19:04 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> Wait, can luasockets be loaded like a regular lua module? Hold up, i dont understand anything about luasockets gimme a sec lmfao |
| 19:05 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> Wait, yeah no... there's no way you can do this without a buncha insecure env stuff |
| 19:07 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Basically what I'd want is something like minetest.get_lusockets() or minetest.get_luasockets_unix() or minetest.get_luasockets("tcp", "unix") or something. If MT was built with luasockets support, you get the lib; if not, you get nil. |
| 19:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I'd also prefer that the "standard" binary builds that are distributed default to including it, where feasible on the platform (stuff like android might be a bit of wildcard) |
| 19:09 |
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| 19:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> As for whether MT embeds a copy of the code like it does for some deps, or searches the OS for a shared installation and uses whatever it finds, I guess is open for debate, but as long as the end-product works, I don't have strong opinions about which is better. |
| 19:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> Honestly, would this even be thst hard to do? Isnt most of this already premade? I mean, thats sorta the point |
| 19:12 |
sfan5 |
I say bundling a copy for a dependency that's not even used by default for anything is out of question |
| 19:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> That* |
| 19:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> But... why? This could fundamentally chance how minetest is played |
| 19:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> In more than one ways |
| 19:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The unbundled option works fine for me. |
| 19:14 |
sfan5 |
I don't see the usecases this would be so critically important for, perhaps you can name some. |
| 19:16 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> Well, i had this idea a few months ago... We have this big problem with CSMs, and clientside changes, and lag. A overall lack of capabilities for the modder... but what if games were installed instead of joined |
| 19:16 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I use it for chat bridges and admin consoles. Also suggested has been various other kinds of integration, like modding APIs in not-lua, machine learning / AI integration stuff, etc. |
| 19:17 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> Basically, you design the game to connect to the server from your (supposedly singleplayer) world |
| 19:17 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I would actually be okay with just using the trusted_mod infrastructure, if that actually worked. Unfortunately, only a subset of luasockets (I think TCP type stuff) is accessible that way, which then leaves me having to reinvent access control. |
| 19:18 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Anyway, all of this stuff should already be in the original issue report anyway, so there's not much point in repeating the conversation here. |
| 19:18 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> So, you make a world, it connects to the server. The server gives the game info it needs to add entities, etc. If you want i could make a diagram bc im bad at explaining things... |
| 19:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> Again, could completely change how the game works |
| 19:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> Bypass servers altogether. Itd make minetest ACTUALLY an engine. |
| 19:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> In a much truer sense |
| 19:22 |
sfan5 |
i get what you mean but it sounds like giant over-complex workaround for insufficiency of the engine |
| 19:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> concur |
| 19:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> Thats the point, adding tcp and support for packets would redeem the engine. In concept, the framework allowing this would be simple |
| 19:24 |
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| 19:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It sounds like you're trying to program a minetest client inside a minetest server |
| 19:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> (Meaning the lua-side) |
| 19:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> Other way around warr |
| 19:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> Actually, no ur right |
| 19:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> It really wouldnt be that hard |
| 19:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Cool, then I guess we don't have to keep speculating about it, you can just show us a proof of concept and we can talk about that then. |
| 19:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> I mean, i sorts stopped working on minetest projects for a reason |
| 19:37 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Because you'd keep saying stuff like "it really wouldn't be that hard" but then you discovered that it actually was? That's not even just MT, that's programming in general. |
| 19:38 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> No, its just MT |
| 19:39 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> MT literally drained all my passion from me |
| 19:39 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Well, if MT is the only serious programming you do, then it's hard to tell the difference. |
| 19:39 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> Ive never bhrnt out so hard |
| 19:40 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> Now i can barely put myself to work on projects.... its just so boring |
| 19:40 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> FatalXenith: Why don't you simply go use a real game engine like LÖVE? |
| 19:40 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Getting burnt out on MT is what I do for relief from getting burnt out by programming professionally. |
| 19:41 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Or Godot, for that matter |
| 19:41 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> MT simply isn't an engine yet and probably won't be anytime soon |
| 19:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> I did. Im trying, but, again. I can't put myself to work on my project... i just |
| 19:41 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I've taken to calling it a "platform" |
| 19:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> I blankly stare |
| 19:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> I cant think, its clouded |
| 19:41 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Then Warr's point about programming in general applies |
| 19:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I like love2d. Calling it without the 2d part is for fancy pants folks who have umlauts on their keyboards. |
| 19:42 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> It has opengl support, theres a few really nice 3d engines for it |
| 19:42 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Yeah, although if you want 3d you might as well give LÖVR a try. |
| 19:43 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Lovr sounds nice, except for that whole vulkan thing. I'll check it out someday if they ever get that fixed. |
| 19:44 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> Not really... its just, i put in like a month of work... and i cant even use the mod bc the game is broken |
| 19:44 |
MTDiscord |
<MarkTheSmeagol> Ümläüts? what aboůţ ŧḩé cǫmpo§ê key? |
| 19:44 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> I cant help but feel like it could be different |
| 19:44 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I have very little interest in 3d outside of contexts where it's already included in the platform like MT though |
| 19:45 |
MTDiscord |
<MarkTheSmeagol> Sorry to anyone who's irc clients may have been borked by my unicode back there |
| 19:45 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Was just about to say :P |
| 19:46 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Fatal, if you can't help but feel like things could be different, that's just because they could be different. That is never going to change though, so eventually you are going to have to settle on things being something and not being anything else even though in theory they could have been. |
| 19:47 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> Yeah, but it doesnt change all the effort i put in warr |
| 19:47 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Sunk cost fallacy |
| 19:47 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> Stop trying to invalidate my burnout |
| 19:47 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Move on Fatal |
| 19:47 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Cut your losses |
| 19:47 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Start using a proper game engine like LÖVE |
| 19:47 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> I already fucking have LMD |
| 19:47 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> excellent |
| 19:47 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> then why are you still here? |
| 19:48 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It's important to invalidate your burnout periodically to ensure that the cached copy stays in sync with the authoritative source. |
| 19:51 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> LMD it's probably not necessary to be that hostile. Fatal can be burned out we're all united in our shared experience of being annoyed af about various limitations and such. Some of us work through or around them, others maybe need a break... |
| 19:52 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> For all the annoying things that MT fails to do or doesn't do smoothly, it's still rather impressive how much does work at the end of the day. |
| 19:53 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Everyone who thinks getting this far is easy just needs to look at the trail of broken "dammit I'll just rewrite it from scratch, how hard can it be" projects MT has left behind to see. |
| 19:59 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Granted, Minetest is an acceptable voxel game platform. But apart from that, as a "general" game platform or engine, it is pretty much unusable due to lack of client control - even with arbitrary (SS)CSM given the current CSM API. You simply don't have full control. If you've tried to use Minetest as a game engine for a while now, it's time to stop, cut your losses, and move on, which I think is the case in Fatal's case: Fatal tried |
| 19:59 |
MTDiscord |
effectively implementing a first-person shooter game inside Minetest, which it isn't really suitable for (yes, various gun mods exist, but they all have a fair part of jank, and if you focus on smooth in-game gun visuals like fatal, you'll get an additional boatload of jank). |
| 20:00 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> That sounds to me more like an unwillingness to compromise, which is fine if you've got both skills and patience in ready supply, because reimplementing a ton of basic mechanics so that you can get things exactly to your liking is very expensive. |
| 20:01 |
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| 20:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> There is also this bias that people tend to go into projects assuming that they want total creative control, when really they just aren't actually interested in taking on all the corresponding responsibility. Having some things taken out of your hands can actually really help liberate you to focus on what's really important, but it often takes a long time for people to realize this trade-off even exists. |
| 20:06 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If I were really trying to make a shooter, yeah, I might consider something other than MT for that, but likely then the game would have to be really all about the shooting, because adding a bunch of diverse other gameplay stuff would be just a PITA at that point. |
| 20:06 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The problem with a shooter that's just a shooter is that there are already plenty of those, and then some |
| 20:07 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> Thats my point app, if we can get luasockets... then, the implementation of these fixes, would be plausible. The second we can transfer info between clients... is the second we fix everything |
| 20:07 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If I wanted to make a game that wouldn't stand out then I'd just play one of the existing ones at that point |
| 20:07 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> It will quite literally fix everything app |
| 20:07 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> EVERYTHING |
| 20:07 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> And i could actually use the things i made |
| 20:08 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Not quite |
| 20:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> Expand on them, even. |
| 20:08 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Network access is worth a lot |
| 20:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> How do you figure thst |
| 20:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> Wdym |
| 20:14 |
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| 20:23 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Getting the data around is one thing, being able to do something with the data is another |
| 20:23 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Also peer to peer (p2p) is problematic, you need to limit the damage cheat clients can do |
| 20:25 |
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| 20:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> One step at a time. But it should basically work the same way normal anticheat does |
| 20:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Fatalist error> Depends though |
| 20:57 |
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| 21:06 |
sometalgoo |
What does it mean in my debug.txt when it says there is a warning and "active block modifiers took 201ms (processed 113 of 485 active blocks)"? Is this something I should need to fix, or can I ignore it? |
| 21:12 |
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| 21:12 |
Krock |
sometalgoo: either your server is running on slow hardware, you're using Lua instead of LuaJIT or a mod is somewhat inefficient |
| 21:13 |
Krock |
turn on the profiler to blame a mod |
| 21:13 |
sometalgoo |
Thanks. I'll troubleshoot. I updated some mods today, so maybe it was one of them. |
| 21:13 |
sometalgoo |
Sorry, what's the profiler? |
| 21:13 |
sometalgoo |
Will that help me isolate which mod is causing this? |
| 21:14 |
Krock |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/minetest.conf.example#L2593 |
| 21:14 |
Krock |
yes. you can let it run in the background and use a chat command to dump it to a file |
| 21:14 |
sometalgoo |
Thank you, Krock! Super helpful. I'll try it. :) |
| 21:14 |
Krock |
it'll list the timings of each callback |
| 21:15 |
Krock |
you're welcome |
| 21:23 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> if your running any kind of mod soup, such warnings are normal and can probably be ignored. unless your on an optimizing mood anyways |
| 22:05 |
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| 22:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It's also simply possible that the game is designed to use whatever resources MT can offer, but MT's ABMs themselves are known to be at least somewhat inefficient. |
| 22:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Generally speaking those warnings can usually be ignored anyway. They might warn you that something might go wrong with one of your mods, but only if your mods are relying on guarantees that ABMs don't actually offer anyway. |
| 22:14 |
diceLibrarian |
[1/1/23 16:23:07] <MTDiscord> <Jonathon> if your running any kind of mod soup, such warnings are normal and can probably be ignored. unless your on an optimizing mood anyways \\ welcome to my private hell wsor, enjoy your stay |
| 23:00 |
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