Time Nick Message 04:16 wsor4035 like the kde reference in that leave message "Part: Konversation terminated!" 18:35 MTDiscord What are the chances we EVER see a luasocket implementation? 18:36 MTDiscord An API for it 18:38 ROllerozxa isn't it possible to load luasockets in an insecure environment? 18:39 MTDiscord see https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10120 18:40 MTDiscord chances are someone needs to implement it. || at least it didnt get paramatted || 18:59 MTDiscord Isnt that assuming they have luasockets? 19:00 MTDiscord I more mean... built in support 19:00 MTDiscord Yeah, like, having an API for luasockets sort of requires that you have luasockets... 19:01 sfan5 "a luasocket implementation" sounds like importing luasockets into Minetest to me 19:01 sfan5 while "built in support" is more what I'd call the thing described in the issue 19:01 MTDiscord Notice the "if installed" in "First-class support for luasockets (if installed) in mod API" 19:02 MTDiscord That is indeed what i mean sfan 19:02 MTDiscord The possibilities that having luasockets would be absolutely endless 19:02 MTDiscord "if installed" is how many of MT's dependencies work, like gettext, postgresql, luajit, etc. 19:02 MTDiscord That was bad Grammar 19:02 MTDiscord X2 19:02 MTDiscord Anyway. 19:02 MTDiscord Wdym warr 19:03 sfan5 well lua modules are loaded at runtime so it's different from the other libs we have 19:03 sfan5 but yeah same concept 19:04 MTDiscord Wait, can luasockets be loaded like a regular lua module? Hold up, i dont understand anything about luasockets gimme a sec lmfao 19:05 MTDiscord Wait, yeah no... there's no way you can do this without a buncha insecure env stuff 19:07 MTDiscord Basically what I'd want is something like minetest.get_lusockets() or minetest.get_luasockets_unix() or minetest.get_luasockets("tcp", "unix") or something. If MT was built with luasockets support, you get the lib; if not, you get nil. 19:08 MTDiscord I'd also prefer that the "standard" binary builds that are distributed default to including it, where feasible on the platform (stuff like android might be a bit of wildcard) 19:10 MTDiscord As for whether MT embeds a copy of the code like it does for some deps, or searches the OS for a shared installation and uses whatever it finds, I guess is open for debate, but as long as the end-product works, I don't have strong opinions about which is better. 19:12 MTDiscord Honestly, would this even be thst hard to do? Isnt most of this already premade? I mean, thats sorta the point 19:12 sfan5 I say bundling a copy for a dependency that's not even used by default for anything is out of question 19:12 MTDiscord That* 19:13 MTDiscord But... why? This could fundamentally chance how minetest is played 19:13 MTDiscord In more than one ways 19:13 MTDiscord The unbundled option works fine for me. 19:14 sfan5 I don't see the usecases this would be so critically important for, perhaps you can name some. 19:16 MTDiscord Well, i had this idea a few months ago... We have this big problem with CSMs, and clientside changes, and lag. A overall lack of capabilities for the modder... but what if games were installed instead of joined 19:16 MTDiscord I use it for chat bridges and admin consoles. Also suggested has been various other kinds of integration, like modding APIs in not-lua, machine learning / AI integration stuff, etc. 19:17 MTDiscord Basically, you design the game to connect to the server from your (supposedly singleplayer) world 19:17 MTDiscord I would actually be okay with just using the trusted_mod infrastructure, if that actually worked. Unfortunately, only a subset of luasockets (I think TCP type stuff) is accessible that way, which then leaves me having to reinvent access control. 19:18 MTDiscord Anyway, all of this stuff should already be in the original issue report anyway, so there's not much point in repeating the conversation here. 19:18 MTDiscord So, you make a world, it connects to the server. The server gives the game info it needs to add entities, etc. If you want i could make a diagram bc im bad at explaining things... 19:20 MTDiscord Again, could completely change how the game works 19:20 MTDiscord Bypass servers altogether. Itd make minetest ACTUALLY an engine. 19:20 MTDiscord In a much truer sense 19:22 sfan5 i get what you mean but it sounds like giant over-complex workaround for insufficiency of the engine 19:24 MTDiscord concur 19:24 MTDiscord Thats the point, adding tcp and support for packets would redeem the engine. In concept, the framework allowing this would be simple 19:24 MTDiscord It sounds like you're trying to program a minetest client inside a minetest server 19:24 MTDiscord (Meaning the lua-side) 19:24 MTDiscord Other way around warr 19:25 MTDiscord Actually, no ur right 19:25 MTDiscord It really wouldnt be that hard 19:27 MTDiscord Cool, then I guess we don't have to keep speculating about it, you can just show us a proof of concept and we can talk about that then. 19:35 MTDiscord I mean, i sorts stopped working on minetest projects for a reason 19:37 MTDiscord Because you'd keep saying stuff like "it really wouldn't be that hard" but then you discovered that it actually was? That's not even just MT, that's programming in general. 19:38 MTDiscord No, its just MT 19:39 MTDiscord MT literally drained all my passion from me 19:39 MTDiscord Well, if MT is the only serious programming you do, then it's hard to tell the difference. 19:39 MTDiscord Ive never bhrnt out so hard 19:40 MTDiscord Now i can barely put myself to work on projects.... its just so boring 19:40 MTDiscord FatalXenith: Why don't you simply go use a real game engine like LÖVE? 19:40 MTDiscord Getting burnt out on MT is what I do for relief from getting burnt out by programming professionally. 19:41 MTDiscord Or Godot, for that matter 19:41 MTDiscord MT simply isn't an engine yet and probably won't be anytime soon 19:41 MTDiscord I did. Im trying, but, again. I can't put myself to work on my project... i just 19:41 MTDiscord I've taken to calling it a "platform" 19:41 MTDiscord I blankly stare 19:41 MTDiscord I cant think, its clouded 19:41 MTDiscord Then Warr's point about programming in general applies 19:41 MTDiscord I like love2d. Calling it without the 2d part is for fancy pants folks who have umlauts on their keyboards. 19:42 MTDiscord It has opengl support, theres a few really nice 3d engines for it 19:42 MTDiscord Yeah, although if you want 3d you might as well give LÖVR a try. 19:43 MTDiscord Lovr sounds nice, except for that whole vulkan thing. I'll check it out someday if they ever get that fixed. 19:44 MTDiscord Not really... its just, i put in like a month of work... and i cant even use the mod bc the game is broken 19:44 MTDiscord Ümläüts? what aboůţ ŧḩé cǫmpo§ê key? 19:44 MTDiscord I cant help but feel like it could be different 19:44 MTDiscord I have very little interest in 3d outside of contexts where it's already included in the platform like MT though 19:45 MTDiscord Sorry to anyone who's irc clients may have been borked by my unicode back there 19:45 MTDiscord Was just about to say :P 19:46 MTDiscord Fatal, if you can't help but feel like things could be different, that's just because they could be different. That is never going to change though, so eventually you are going to have to settle on things being something and not being anything else even though in theory they could have been. 19:47 MTDiscord Yeah, but it doesnt change all the effort i put in warr 19:47 MTDiscord Sunk cost fallacy 19:47 MTDiscord Stop trying to invalidate my burnout 19:47 MTDiscord Move on Fatal 19:47 MTDiscord Cut your losses 19:47 MTDiscord Start using a proper game engine like LÖVE 19:47 MTDiscord I already fucking have LMD 19:47 MTDiscord excellent 19:47 MTDiscord then why are you still here? 19:48 MTDiscord It's important to invalidate your burnout periodically to ensure that the cached copy stays in sync with the authoritative source. 19:51 MTDiscord LMD it's probably not necessary to be that hostile. Fatal can be burned out we're all united in our shared experience of being annoyed af about various limitations and such. Some of us work through or around them, others maybe need a break... 19:52 MTDiscord For all the annoying things that MT fails to do or doesn't do smoothly, it's still rather impressive how much does work at the end of the day. 19:53 MTDiscord Everyone who thinks getting this far is easy just needs to look at the trail of broken "dammit I'll just rewrite it from scratch, how hard can it be" projects MT has left behind to see. 19:59 MTDiscord Granted, Minetest is an acceptable voxel game platform. But apart from that, as a "general" game platform or engine, it is pretty much unusable due to lack of client control - even with arbitrary (SS)CSM given the current CSM API. You simply don't have full control. If you've tried to use Minetest as a game engine for a while now, it's time to stop, cut your losses, and move on, which I think is the case in Fatal's case: Fatal tried 19:59 MTDiscord effectively implementing a first-person shooter game inside Minetest, which it isn't really suitable for (yes, various gun mods exist, but they all have a fair part of jank, and if you focus on smooth in-game gun visuals like fatal, you'll get an additional boatload of jank). 20:00 MTDiscord That sounds to me more like an unwillingness to compromise, which is fine if you've got both skills and patience in ready supply, because reimplementing a ton of basic mechanics so that you can get things exactly to your liking is very expensive. 20:02 MTDiscord There is also this bias that people tend to go into projects assuming that they want total creative control, when really they just aren't actually interested in taking on all the corresponding responsibility. Having some things taken out of your hands can actually really help liberate you to focus on what's really important, but it often takes a long time for people to realize this trade-off even exists. 20:06 MTDiscord If I were really trying to make a shooter, yeah, I might consider something other than MT for that, but likely then the game would have to be really all about the shooting, because adding a bunch of diverse other gameplay stuff would be just a PITA at that point. 20:06 MTDiscord The problem with a shooter that's just a shooter is that there are already plenty of those, and then some 20:07 MTDiscord Thats my point app, if we can get luasockets... then, the implementation of these fixes, would be plausible. The second we can transfer info between clients... is the second we fix everything 20:07 MTDiscord If I wanted to make a game that wouldn't stand out then I'd just play one of the existing ones at that point 20:07 MTDiscord It will quite literally fix everything app 20:07 MTDiscord EVERYTHING 20:07 MTDiscord And i could actually use the things i made 20:08 MTDiscord Not quite 20:08 MTDiscord Expand on them, even. 20:08 MTDiscord Network access is worth a lot 20:08 MTDiscord How do you figure thst 20:08 MTDiscord Wdym 20:23 MTDiscord Getting the data around is one thing, being able to do something with the data is another 20:23 MTDiscord Also peer to peer (p2p) is problematic, you need to limit the damage cheat clients can do 20:27 MTDiscord One step at a time. But it should basically work the same way normal anticheat does 20:27 MTDiscord Depends though 21:06 sometalgoo What does it mean in my debug.txt when it says there is a warning and "active block modifiers took 201ms (processed 113 of 485 active blocks)"? Is this something I should need to fix, or can I ignore it? 21:12 Krock sometalgoo: either your server is running on slow hardware, you're using Lua instead of LuaJIT or a mod is somewhat inefficient 21:13 Krock turn on the profiler to blame a mod 21:13 sometalgoo Thanks. I'll troubleshoot. I updated some mods today, so maybe it was one of them. 21:13 sometalgoo Sorry, what's the profiler? 21:13 sometalgoo Will that help me isolate which mod is causing this? 21:14 Krock https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/minetest.conf.example#L2593 21:14 Krock yes. you can let it run in the background and use a chat command to dump it to a file 21:14 sometalgoo Thank you, Krock! Super helpful. I'll try it. :) 21:14 Krock it'll list the timings of each callback 21:15 Krock you're welcome 21:23 MTDiscord if your running any kind of mod soup, such warnings are normal and can probably be ignored. unless your on an optimizing mood anyways 22:09 MTDiscord It's also simply possible that the game is designed to use whatever resources MT can offer, but MT's ABMs themselves are known to be at least somewhat inefficient. 22:11 MTDiscord Generally speaking those warnings can usually be ignored anyway. They might warn you that something might go wrong with one of your mods, but only if your mods are relying on guarantees that ABMs don't actually offer anyway. 22:14 diceLibrarian [1/1/23 16:23:07] if your running any kind of mod soup, such warnings are normal and can probably be ignored. unless your on an optimizing mood anyways \\ welcome to my private hell wsor, enjoy your stay