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IRC log for #minetest, 2022-12-10

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01:36 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Modnames need to be unique, but as far as I know, modpack names don't have to be, per se...
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02:42 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Name space conflict?
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04:30 fluxionary warr1024: mod names need to be *compatible* w/ older mods w/ the same name, at least if they want to be listed in the content db
04:30 fluxionary er, mods w/ the same name as other mods
04:32 fluxionary Warr1024, compatible is a slightly fluid concept, but at they should implement the same public API, and not crash if swapped out for the original mod by that name
04:32 MTDiscord <Jonathon> you would think that a cdb moderator || that doesnt do much of anything in the queue admittedly || would be aware of such things
04:33 fluxionary Jonathon: who is that cdb moderator? also, if someone has volunteered for something, but doesn't understand the protocols, that's not a problem. we just need to point them in the right direction.
04:34 MTDiscord <Jonathon> im saying your pointing out policy of cdb, to one who (sometimes) enforces it and helped make it
04:34 MTDiscord <Jonathon> https://content.minetest.net/users/
04:36 MTDiscord <Jonathon> (if it wasnt obvious, the moderator is warr1014)
04:36 fluxionary Jonathon: if you say so, warr1024 is a name i've seen before, but i wasn't aware they had responsibilities
04:36 MTDiscord <Jonathon> *warr1024
04:36 MTDiscord <Jonathon> well, cant fault you there since they dont actually do much in the queue
04:38 fluxionary huh, now i'm really curious how they ended up so far up that ladder
04:40 fluxionary "Warr1024 has a game placed at #3." "Only 16 users have written more helpful reviews." "Has received 92071 downloads across all packages."
04:40 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3 -- Furnace segfault
04:40 MTDiscord <Jonathon> while i will point out that warr doesnt do much of anything in the way of approving things in the queue, they have been useful in policy debates/insights/cdb features/well formating responses
04:40 fluxionary that's pretty epic actually, i'm surprised i don't know more about them
04:42 fluxionary also, ShadoBot: shh
04:46 MTDiscord <Jonathon> i wonder if you can escape shadow bot responses
04:46 MTDiscord <Jonathon> like #3
04:46 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3 -- Furnace segfault
04:46 fluxionary while we're on the topic, i wouldn't mind being added to the cdb review committee, or the github minetest-mods review team
04:47 MTDiscord <Jonathon> lol, good luck getting into minetest-mods
04:48 fluxionary i have no idea what's involved in getting to that point, but i feel like minetest-mods needs more reviewers
04:48 MTDiscord <Jonathon> see https://github.com/minetest-mods/minetest-mods.github.io/issues/118 place is basically a graveyard outside of the few mods smalljoker and buckaroo have rights to/work on
04:49 MTDiscord <Jonathon> which is part of the reason mt-mods exists, and has certain repos
04:50 fluxionary well, it's a dead-end, but it's also not really a "graveyard", since there's only one grave...
04:50 fluxionary i'll poke at the status quo tomorrow, i'm too close to sleep rn to trust my judgmeent
04:52 fluxionary mt-mods exists, and i'm a part of mt-mods, but mt-mods also is a great example of why people *should not* get editorial control over various mods
04:53 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Hmm, so ShadowBot thinks that I have a game placed at Furnace segfault on CDB?  Well, good thing that game doesn't have any "furnace" item in it then.
04:54 MTDiscord <Jonathon> someone needs to make a mod for that? 🤔
04:54 MTDiscord <Jonathon> typical nodecore style it would need to be some sort of joke
04:54 fluxionary i'm throwing myself into hot water again w/ a "hot take", but there is apparently a relatively small intersection between "people who are motivated to maintain mods" and "people who have good judgment about how to maintain mods".
04:55 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Good judgement takes motivation and time.  At least they've got half of the ingredients, and the other one is a matter of ... well, time.
04:57 fluxionary and this is minetest. it's all volunteer work, and none of my criticism is meant to tell people they can't try to improve things
04:58 MTDiscord <Warr1024> On the contrary, criticism is by its nature usually meant to tell people they NEED to improve certain things :-D
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05:00 fluxionary Warr1024, i dunno. i want to suggest that they improve things, but i also want to be able to point to a concrete strategy that they can use. i do have an essay i've been working on, but while it's in a public repo, it's not quite at the point where i want to publish it
05:01 fluxionary i also think that a huge thing that we need is a unit/integration testing framework for mods. i've done a bit of work on that, and am focusing on it again
05:01 MTDiscord <Jonathon> you are aware of sx mineunit stuff, right?
05:01 fluxionary jonathon: yes i am
05:01 MTDiscord <Jonathon> 👍
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05:02 fluxionary jonathon: i noticed that shortly after i started to work on my own solution, but decided that it wasn't actually a solution to the problem when SX said that they were testing for how they *wanted* minetest to work, instead of how it actually worked
05:04 MTDiscord <Jonathon> yeah, unit testing gets into the weeds on some other subjects, like breaking apis from content, seperating them as different mods or not, testing in game automate(matters for ci minutes) vs just api code tests, etc
05:07 fluxionary Jonaton: unit tests, conceptually, shouldn't care about external APIs. i suppose what i want to create is a framework for *integration* tests.
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05:08 fluxionary testing whether the mod works properly on its own is one step, but most of the bugs that minetest server runners have to deal w/, are related to how mods interact w/ each other
05:09 fluxionary for this purpose, i want to create a pure-lua implementation of the things that minetest provides to the lua API
05:10 MTDiscord <Jonathon> valid point, thought you where more referring to per mod specifically rather than together originally, my mistake
05:12 fluxionary Jonathon: i'm thinking more about a mod and its dependencies, than a mod and how it integrates w/ every other possible combination of mods
05:14 MTDiscord <Jonathon> seems you could use the cdb api for tracing deps and sourcing the code
05:14 fluxionary but mostly, i want to create a framework where you can say, "test this mod. other mods live in these specific folders. the builtin lua exists at this path."
05:15 fluxionary the framework will provide the things that the lua API provides. maybe it'll allow you to specify a specific mintetest version (though that's not super important to me)
05:17 MTDiscord <Jonathon> besides dep issues, anything else you would want to check with such a frame work?
05:17 fluxionary Jonathon: possibly... though i'd rather just point to someone's mods & worldmods folders, and their world.mt file, and other standard locations like that
05:17 fluxionary Jonathon: some mods get complicated. i want to test that changes to them don't break anything
05:18 MTDiscord <Jonathon> like your moreblocks pr? 😛
05:18 fluxionary yes, like my moreblocks pr :)
05:18 fluxionary or my smartshop fork
05:18 fluxionary i'm also working on some mods for totally redoing eating, damage, armor, mobs, and other things
05:19 wsor good luck, many people have tried those things in different ways, but not many have seen adoption
05:19 fluxionary stuff is complicated, i want a way to say "it's meant to work this way", for some particlar way
05:20 wsor arguably nodeio supported in elepower was an odd success story, but elepower isnt that active anymore
05:20 fluxionary wsor: yup, i do understand that i'm taking on more than i can really do on my own
05:21 fluxionary i never really played around w/ elepower, though i was curious at one point. i'm not too interested in machine/automation mods at the moment
05:22 wsor anyways, its still my current opinion, that such concepts would be better suited implemented into a game and used by its deps, rather than trying to be retrofitted onto the current ecosystem
05:23 wsor perhaps if said game seems success, it could be adopted to other games, etc
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08:50 hmmmm hehehe
08:50 hmmmm hi norkle
08:50 hmmmm nice website u got thur
09:00 BuckarooBanzai !tell fluxionary you might be interested in this: https://github.com/buckaroobanzay/mtt but i think you are aiming for a new project, right? ;)
09:00 MinetestBot BuckarooBanzai: yeah, sure, whatever
09:36 BuckarooBanzai ^ for the sake of cooperation/community: i'm open to suggestions/rewrites and/or repo-move to a public org if there is interest in that
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14:01 MinetestBot [git] TurkeyMcMac -> minetest/minetest: Avoid out-of-bounds memory access in attached node placement predicti… 1798ad0 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/1798ad0ec4deed12e7a3f20e8278171e304a087d (2022-12-10T14:00:27Z)
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14:10 MinetestBot [git] TurkeyMcMac -> minetest/minetest: Prevent air acceleration with 0 jump speed (#13036) c18c082 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/c18c08205995395e3db0a1a05167cd6f018947ee (2022-12-10T14:08:50Z)
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14:21 eldritchcookie[m can i call registration function on a on_mods_loaded callback if not how could i make a mod always the last one to load?
14:23 sfan5 that's not easy doable
14:23 sfan5 for what reason do you need your mod to be the last?
14:29 vampirefrog it's a last laugh mod
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14:45 eldritchcookie[m i want to create a game that isn't based on minetest game but would like to have many mods to work on it given that i will supply many things which have equivalents i considered to have a dummy default to supply the required dependencies and then modify the global state that those mods add to make their definitions use my mods's definitions, example my mod would be last and then would look at the global table and store its state
14:45 eldritchcookie[m internally then i unregister everything that depends on defualt and then using the stored state i translate it to make the mods be usable on my game
14:47 MinetestBot [git] mnh48 -> minetest/minetest: Translated using Weblate (Malay (Jawi)) 1dde03d https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/1dde03dfec963155dfb6588f809c13874df17a0e (2022-12-10T14:30:43Z)
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14:48 douwe[m] hey, can passwords be reset from the command line over ssh?
14:49 eldritchcookie[m yes if you know the command and it exists
14:49 douwe[m] I fail at both
14:49 douwe[m] * at both: but if you tell me, I'll succeed
14:58 eldritchcookie[m if you call minetestserver with --terminal long option you can execute any ingame command
14:58 eldritchcookie[m use /setpassword
14:59 douwe[m] $  minetestserver --terminal /setpassword
14:59 douwe[m] is that what you mean?
15:00 sfan5 if you have started the server with --terminal (and not as a service or such) you will get an interface where you can execute commands as the configured admin user
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15:08 douwe[m] ok, thnx! Very helpful 😃
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17:01 MinetestBot fluxionary: Dec-10 09:00 UTC <BuckarooBanzai> you might be interested in this: https://github.com/buckaroobanzay/mtt but i think you are aiming for a new project, right? ;)
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18:19 FavoritoHJS https://youtu.be/2M94nrANJmQ?t=55 oh god oh FUCK microjang is pinkwashing THE MARKETPLACE
18:19 FavoritoHJS this is fucking personal now
18:20 MTDiscord <luatic> Minetesters don't really care about the Mojank Marketplace, whatever that is.
18:23 MTDiscord <cora> plus they're doing what they think will get them the most money
18:23 MTDiscord <cora> yk exactly what you pay them to do haha
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18:32 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It actually rather makes sense that they're doing this, since (1) content the allow is effectively content they endorse since it's their own highly curated store, and (2) their target audience is a lot younger than a lot of audiences in minetest.
18:37 FavoritoHJS you say all content is endorsed... does that mean suing Microjank for copyright infirngment is an option?
18:41 MTDiscord <MikeNight> What irc client for win is proffered nowadays? I haven't used irc in 20 years so I'm a bit rusty
18:44 muurkha what does "pinkwashing the marketplace" mean?
18:47 definitelya Covering the ugly with sunshine and rainbows? IDK xD
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18:48 MTDiscord <cora> it's civil law, suing is always an option
18:48 MTDiscord <cora> sounds like it probably wont work out well though
18:50 MTDiscord <cora> cant people like make their own market place if they dont like the official one
18:51 definitelya I mean it is the most played game of all time, some people will surely go the legal route.
18:52 definitelya Anything to hurt the status quo...
18:53 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> @MikeNight personally I use good old hexchat on desktop, it's crossplatform and supports windows
18:54 MTDiscord <MikeNight> Alright, I was looking at web clients but idk. I like customizability, and web apps are easiest to modify
18:57 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> well there is thelounge which is a selfhostable IRC web client that doubles as a bouncer
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19:37 Yad Is there no round function? Only floor and ceiling?
19:39 rubenwardy only floor, thank Lua
19:42 muurkha Lua likes minimality
19:42 MTDiscord <luatic> rubenwardy: floor and ceil
19:43 muurkha yup, math.ceil
19:44 muurkha you could quibble with this in that it handles negatives and positives asymmetrically: function round(x) return math.floor(x + 0.5) end
19:45 MTDiscord <luatic> muurkha: and don't forget the float precision issues x)
19:47 muurkha how do those come up in this context?
19:47 Yad luatic: Float precision issues appears to be why I have to use rounding.
19:47 Yad luatic: As I move entities they don't line up with the node matrix.
19:48 MTDiscord <luatic> muurkha: IIRC there is one example of a border number which is just below x.5 but gets rounded up to x+1
19:48 MTDiscord <luatic> https://stackoverflow.com/a/58411671/7185318
19:48 Yad luatic: for example if I call set_pos ten times adding 0.1 meters each time to the y axis position, I get a position something like 0.000 000 23 more than it should be.
19:49 muurkha luatic: interesting, I didn't realize!
19:49 Yad luatic: You're replying to my remarks about set_pos()?
19:49 muurkha Yad: yes, floats do that, but usually the error is a lot smaller than that
19:50 MTDiscord <luatic> no
19:50 Yad muurkha: Hmm, it seems fairly small, certainly less than one pixel on the screen.
19:50 MTDiscord <luatic> floats have 6 digits of precision approx.
19:50 MTDiscord <luatic> lua uses doubles though
19:50 MTDiscord <luatic> but Minetest uses floats for positions again
19:50 Yad luatic: Thanks for clarifying, I rely heavily on names to understand who is writing to whom, especially since I have HexChat configured to notify me only when my name is mentioned.
19:51 muurkha Yad: like in that particular case the error is -1.1102230246252e-16
19:51 Yad muurkha: 0.000 000 1 is the tenth of a micrometer
19:51 MTDiscord <luatic> anyways, I'd just truncate that off
19:52 MTDiscord <luatic> you can round but why the hassle
19:52 Yad luatic: if I truncate then I could end up with 1.999 999 meters
19:52 Yad luatic: which is not a valid position to place a node, no?
19:52 MTDiscord <luatic> fair
19:52 MTDiscord <luatic> it is
19:52 MTDiscord <luatic> just place the node at the pos x)
19:53 MTDiscord <luatic> minetest will do the rounding for you
19:53 Yad oh, will minetest.set_node() accept demcial positions?
19:53 Yad oooo
19:53 MTDiscord <luatic> yes
19:53 MTDiscord <luatic> XY-problem solved
19:53 MTDiscord Command sent from Discord by LMD:
19:53 MTDiscord !next
19:53 MinetestBot Another satisfied customer. Next!
19:53 Yad luatic: I didn't realise that, thanks.
19:53 MTDiscord <luatic> np :)
19:53 MTDiscord <luatic> it'd be a lot less useful if it didn't
19:53 Yad hahahah
19:54 Yad I'm getting so used to nil-table exceptions I expected an error without an exact integer :P
19:56 Yad luatic: visual_scale is only for nodes...is there a way to do that with entities without having to make a separate mesh .obj file?
19:57 MTDiscord <luatic> yes
19:58 MTDiscord <luatic> I think it's called visual_size for them
19:58 MTDiscord <luatic> and it is a vector in the object properties
19:58 MTDiscord <luatic> refer to the Lua API
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20:14 MisterE[m] New Blog Post: https://blog.minetest.net/2022/12/10/November/
20:22 Yad luatic: Yes, thanks.
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21:25 FavoritoHJS > but Minetest uses floats for positions again
21:25 FavoritoHJS this reminds me... there was an old bug in MC (still exists in bugrock) where if you walk across floating point presicion boundries in just the right way, the players collision box would be adjusted in just the _wrong_ way until you fall through the infinitesimally small space between blocks. Does that also work in Minetest?
21:25 FavoritoHJS And why is the world limit at 31k instead of 32k?
21:25 FavoritoHJS oops sorry for mention
21:34 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Bad stuff happens around the 32k boundary, like if an object actually crosses over it.  The boundary is backed off to 31k to make sure you can't even see/load past the 32k boundary.
21:35 FavoritoHJS why does that happen? I'm guessing some part of the engine is expecting coord locations to always fit in a short
21:35 FavoritoHJS (start screaming about 16.16 fixed point)
21:42 MTDiscord <cora> there are 2 boundaries
21:42 MTDiscord <cora> the server boundary and the client boundary (the former being a bit further out
21:42 MTDiscord <cora> 30007 in default settings and on the + borders i think
21:43 MTDiscord <cora> you can easily verify it by getting nodes (or entities) there using mod features
21:43 MTDiscord <cora> e.g. pistons
21:43 MTDiscord <cora> the mapblocks will just never be sent to the clients .. but if you move entities there you will see them
21:43 MTDiscord <cora> 31007 ofc
21:44 MTDiscord <cora> you can also place nodes if you noclip out and point at nodes at the edge (you won't see them but they're there - try it with rails hehe
21:55 FavoritoHJS interesting, so nothing is generated there but you can still place stuff and it gets preserved across reloads?
21:57 FavoritoHJS even physics works properly if you can turn some nodes into air
21:58 FavoritoHJS i wonder, I heard that ignore nodes cause buggyness, maybe the cause of the server not sending the chunk is because of all the ignore?
22:04 FavoritoHJS fascinating, permafrost snow piles are different every deleteblocks
22:04 FavoritoHJS even though the seed is the same
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22:34 FavoritoHJS i've just realized... mesecons sticky blocks act like mc slimeblocks
22:34 FavoritoHJS flying machine?
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22:38 FavoritoHJS whaaa
22:38 FavoritoHJS placing a sticky block behind a piston and activating the piston causes the block to dissapear
22:39 muurkha really?
22:39 FavoritoHJS yes
22:40 FavoritoHJS sticky blocks in general are buggy
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22:43 MTDiscord <Jonathon> seems like thats a false statement
22:43 MTDiscord <Jonathon> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1051267833247584397/image.png
22:45 FavoritoHJS try placing a sticky block in front of the piston
22:46 FavoritoHJS it seems like it correctly checks for the sticky block for when to move nodes, but when actually moving the nodes it doesn't
22:46 FavoritoHJS i'm guessing the search starts at the piston instead of at the sticky block
22:50 MTDiscord <Jonathon> even changing it from back to front still works fine
22:50 MTDiscord <Jonathon> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1051269812736757770/image.png
22:52 FavoritoHJS sticky piston sticky
22:52 FavoritoHJS power piston, bye sticky
22:52 MTDiscord <cora> ignore only causes buggyness if there are buggy mods ^^ similar to unknown nodes or items. but yeah it gets preserved across reloads .. its written to the world db
22:53 MTDiscord <Jonathon> still perfectly fine
22:54 MTDiscord <cora> mineclone used to have this feature:
22:54 MTDiscord <cora> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1051270689904152687/crashbutton.png
22:54 MTDiscord <Warr1024> What, no bacon?
22:54 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ah yes, crash the world when placed at the world border
22:55 MTDiscord <cora> when de-powering it to be precise yeah
22:55 FavoritoHJS fine, fine, fine... but kiwiirc doesn't host images for very long, so mirror it asap
22:56 MTDiscord <cora> there https://mister-muffin.de/p/_xis.png
22:57 FavoritoHJS kiwiirc is busted and isn't letting me upload stuff
22:57 MTDiscord <cora> mister-muffin is nice
22:57 FavoritoHJS update supression in a nutshell
22:57 MTDiscord <cora> you can easily  upload via curl / http request
22:58 MTDiscord <cora> cat yourfile | curl -F 'arg=<-' https://mister-muffin.de/paste
22:59 Krock pretty much like https://0x0.st/
22:59 MTDiscord <cora> yeah looks fairly similar
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23:00 Krock do these files ever expire?
23:00 MTDiscord <cora> they haven't yet afaik
23:00 MTDiscord <cora> been using it for a year or so
23:01 rubenwardy I use my own domain and a py script to scp
23:01 rubenwardy https://gitlab.com/rubenwardy/rubenimageupload
23:01 rubenwardy the script is associated as a program for .png/.jpg
23:01 rubenwardy so from the screenshot tool, I can open with "rubenimageupload"
23:01 MTDiscord <cora> i'm to old to host web services haha
23:02 FavoritoHJS anyways, here's the thing https://mister-muffin.de/p/Hwhi.png
23:02 MTDiscord <cora> but yeah that prob the best way to do it
23:02 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Wait, shit, there's an age limit?
23:02 Krock that's not even a webservice
23:02 Krock plain file copy over scp
23:02 rubenwardy nginx and ssh
23:03 Krock well yeah. nginx to provide it to others
23:03 MTDiscord <cora> well to provide http access to the file you'd need to operate some kind of web service i suppose
23:03 rubenwardy I bought rwdy.uk for it.    Unfortunately, all the 3 letter ones that made sense were taken :(
23:03 rubenwardy If I bought rdy.co.uk I could have rdy.uk
23:04 rubenwardy probably expensive though
23:04 FavoritoHJS you'd need some kind of web server to service requests, and that requires a domain and keeping a server on 24/7
23:04 Krock freedns > bought domains
23:04 MTDiscord <cora> yeah and like updating it and stuff
23:04 MTDiscord <cora> ive done this before ik how it ends lol
23:04 Krock FavoritoHJS: many VPS will work just fine for web hosting.
23:05 rubenwardy I already have a server on 24/7
23:05 rubenwardy I wouldn't recommend it for all users, but it's ideal for me
23:06 rubenwardy I barely use it anymore though, with discord
23:06 MTDiscord <cora> yeah if you have a server anyways that makes sense .. i mean i used to do it like that when i did hehe
23:06 Krock set up a lichess instance or something
23:06 Krock or invidio.us
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