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IRC log for #minetest, 2022-06-28

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04:05 Elon_Satoshi1 Does anybody remember that there used to be an old Minetest music mod that had Amethystium songs?
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08:38 independent_ Is this unethical? https://i.imgur.com/p0F3j1m.png
08:50 MTDiscord <luatic> independent_: Yes, misspelling "imprisoned" as "emprisioned" is highly unethical.
08:50 independent_ Haha, i'm sorry. English spelling sucks
08:51 independent_ Renglish translation: Haha aīm sorry. Englisho Speling sucks
08:52 independent_ (note the ai dipthong using a macron to link vowels)
08:53 MTDiscord <luatic> schpelink*
09:00 MTDiscord <MNH48> are you playing in local world or is it an online server?
09:01 MTDiscord <luatic> MNH48: It's probably his local online server xD
09:13 independent_ It's on my public server, hosted on the laptop downstairs in the living room
09:13 independent_ Anyone can join, even those outside the network or country
09:14 independent_ I think that it is unfair emprisionment of a train which cannot help it, but i still do it as it's funny to laugh at a poor train
09:14 independent_ Because trains are inanimate obejcts and i must stop personifying them (I've expressed concerns over a train getting panicked as it gets lost)
09:24 MTDiscord <MNH48> oh, ig it's the "56i-server" in the server list?
09:25 independent_ Yes, and it's hosted on a residental internet connection
09:25 independent_ I think that imprisioning that train is worse then https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO6qIM2WO6k because in the video, the train did something wrong, but here, the train did nothing wrong
09:25 independent_ Even worse, every hour a steam train goes past once... and then again in the other direction
09:51 MTDiscord <MNH48> lol, it says server crashed when trying to join
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10:03 independent_ Oh crap
10:03 independent_ That's not normal
10:04 independent_ Maybe my interlocking will dissapear again
10:10 independent_ Ok, it's fine
10:13 independent_ The server crashed under my fingers
10:13 independent_ Thanks for telling me.
10:18 independent_ rubenwardy, 4 more Forum Posts before you curse yourself with 6666 posts. Just a heads-up
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10:30 independent_ Does having multiple servers all having names descended from the main server make the server more pominent on the server list? I'd like to imagine it does (i have 5-8 servers i think)
10:31 ROllerozxa well I don't think it gives you any more server points but it probably will make someone who looks at the server list go "woah, that's a guy with a lot of minetests on his hands"
10:33 independent_ What is the starting point of server age? What defines the start of a server? My server age on servers.minetest.net is less then a year, despite my server having celebrated its first birthday.
10:33 independent_ ROllerozxa, And is that a good thing?
10:33 MTDiscord <MNH48> actually maybe my 'player' is broken in your server and crashed it when I try to join ... lemme try with different username
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10:35 independent_ No, don't think so
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10:35 independent_ It might be a specific part of the map being boken
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10:35 independent_ I've started minetest manually and am on the lookout for errors on the server
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10:37 independent_ Ah, caught the error
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10:38 independent_ https://pastebin.com/3mh8MzS4
10:38 independent_ Could be your username
10:38 independent_ Actually, the error begins earlier: https://pastebin.com/VTjv5g4R
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10:39 independent_ Let me try joining with a new account. It might be server cleaner acting up.
10:39 MTDiscord <MNH48> seemed to be in but server didn't send any more data
10:39 MTDiscord <MNH48> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/991291866576330772/unknown.png
10:41 independent_ Ah yes
10:41 independent_ My new account worked perfectly. Can you try a different username?
10:43 independent_ For reference: https://i.imgur.com/Absu78f.png
10:43 MTDiscord <MNH48> seem to work this time
10:44 independent_ Good
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11:08 sfan5 do lua metatables work recursively
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11:15 MinetestBot [git] sfan5 -> minetest/minetest: Remove an unused method and header includes a5f3859 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/a5f385917d0db5097e3cd4a1c6de794bda20c01f (2022-06-28T10:21:12Z)
11:23 MTDiscord <luatic> sfan5: Lua indexing a metatable won't consider the metatable of the metatable but Lua indexing a table specified using __index will consider the metatable of the metatable
11:23 MTDiscord <luatic> so yes, but with limitations
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11:25 sfan5 the last one is what I meant
11:25 sfan5 thanks
11:25 MTDiscord <luatic> e.g. setmetatable({}, setmetatable({}, {__index = {__index = {a = 1}}})).a will be nil
11:25 MTDiscord <luatic> np
11:26 MTDiscord <luatic> for the sake of completeness (as I've phrased this poorly), the 2nd example: setmetatable({}, {__index = setmetatable({}, {__index = {a = 1}})}).a will be 1
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12:11 MTDiscord <MNH48> I just realized the engine that pulls the train in 56i server is irrlicht
12:11 MTDiscord <MNH48> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/991314957251657758/unknown.png
12:12 independent56 Yes, it is branded as that
12:12 independent56 I always thought it said "IRR-LIGHT"
12:12 independent56 But it is actually called the "big industrial train engine"
12:13 independent56 It's because the passenger cars do not locomotive, and need an external source of power.
12:13 independent56 Because of this, the train is very slow to accelerate
12:13 independent56 https://advtrains.de/wiki/doku.php?id=usage:trains:basic_trains:advtrains_engine_industrial_big
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17:33 sfan5 what is played when a footstep sound is defined as {name="", gain=0.5}?
17:34 sfan5 none I guess
17:34 sfan5 wonder why mtg has something similar then
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17:39 Krock it's the sound of silence
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17:40 hn_ oh. there was a song like that...
17:40 hn_ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9Dg-g7t2l4 probably...
17:41 Krock c'mon at least link to the original
17:41 hn_ lool
17:41 hn_ ut anyways first like from google i ot
17:41 hn_ * got
17:41 hn_ (duck autocorrect
17:41 giov4[m] is it normal that when I attach a particle spawner to a player (an infinite one, precisely), if someone joins the server after creating it, they don't see it?
17:41 Krock yes
17:42 Krock that's also somewhere as a bug report
17:46 giov4[m] oh found it. A usecase for infinite particle spawners may be to add a trail to player (e.g. a flames trail) as a decoration (like Minecraft servers)
17:52 Krock giov4[m]: do you have a simple testing code by any chance?
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18:26 muurkha luatic: sounds like a mildly annoying Lua defect; are there places where it's hard to work around?
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18:36 sfan5 celeron55: where did the git repos for what used to be games/common games/build or games/survival around 0.4.6 go?
18:36 sfan5 the contents are neither in the history of the engine or the MTG repo
18:36 hn_ ?!
18:36 sfan5 nor*
18:39 MTDiscord <GoodClover> muurkha: less of a defect, more of a limitation.
18:39 MTDiscord <GoodClover> Not sure when you'd want to do so, other than maybe implementing a weird "mts are oop" system (as opposed to using mts to implement oop).
18:40 appguru hn_: What do you mean here: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=411724&amp;sid=a336695820447dabc2eac0acbbf0cde5#p411724 - could you be more specific about "leaves you with no weather at all"? Please report engine (or MTG?) regressions in the future.
18:42 muurkha well, you could recurse without limit and fail with an error if an endless loop was encountered; there's no way to generate metatables on the fly during the process, so a simple tortoise-and-hare algorithm is sufficient to detect this
18:45 muurkha or is there?
18:45 muurkha hmm, I guess __index could be a function that returns an object with a fresh metatable actually, so an endless loop could go undetected
18:47 MTDiscord <luatic> muurkha: Metatable __index chains definitely aren't a "defect".
18:48 muurkha no, I mean the fact that indexing a metatable won't consider the metatable of the metatable
18:49 muurkha it's an inconsistency that makes reasoning about the behavior of Lua programs more difficult, isnt it?
18:49 muurkha because a table behaves differently when used as a metatable than otherwise
18:50 muurkha maybe I'm misunderstanding though
18:50 MTDiscord <luatic> ah that, yes
18:51 muurkha I mean it might be preferable to a bug in Lua code causing the Lua interpreter to overflow the C stack
18:52 celeron55 sfan5: interesting question
18:54 celeron55 apparently 0.4.6 is around 201
18:55 celeron55 2013*
18:56 hn_ appguru: its a core bug? i thought its mod bug cause i can disable weather so i dont have clouds... o.O
18:56 hn_ and this works. while weather doesnt
18:57 hn_ i thought that this mod will add clouds by itself btw...
18:58 muurkha I was amused to learn the other night that Infiniminer already had flowing lava, rectangular clouds, and TNT, which I guess were all copied by Minecraft
18:59 muurkha (and thence Minetest)
18:59 celeron55 well, MC had those before MT existed
19:02 muurkha and infiniminer had them before MC existed
19:06 celeron55 altough, in MC like half of things were broken in multiplayer
19:06 celeron55 infiniminer obviously worked nicely
19:06 celeron55 but it was a less ambitious project
19:06 muurkha yeah, for sure
19:07 celeron55 sfan5: i can't find those in any obvious way, any ideas?
19:07 sfan5 hmm
19:07 sfan5 bitbucket?
19:07 muurkha all "mine" and no "craft"
19:08 hn_ yeah... and here i more craft than mine :/
19:08 celeron55 bitbucket removed all mercurial repos a while ago
19:08 celeron55 and i don't think i converted any of them to git
19:08 celeron55 but i do have them locally
19:08 muurkha living up to their name
19:08 sfan5 other than that: if you're lucky you'll find a random home backup from 2013 and it'll have them
19:08 celeron55 it's just that didn't MT convert to git much earlier than 0.4.6?
19:08 sfan5 yeah I think it was git actually by that point
19:09 muurkha I've been thinking it would be fun to hack together a sandbox based on the Comanche VoxelSpace algorithm, my old laptop is groaning under the load of large numbers of plants and getting 8 fps
19:10 muurkha obviously a VoxelSpace-based game (or sandbox) would be very different from Minetest
19:11 celeron55 sfan5: well i can find the "common" game
19:12 sfan5 that's valuable
19:12 celeron55 but i can't find "build" and "survival"
19:12 sfan5 build and survival didn't have much in them
19:12 celeron55 it's literally in my main minetest project directory, as games/unused/common
19:13 sfan5 :D
19:13 celeron55 and it's not a git repo
19:13 celeron55 just a plain directory
19:13 muurkha my girlfriend installed a bunch of mods on her server including plantlife_modpack, and I suspect that's why my old laptop is struggling
19:13 celeron55 so where would you like me to put this
19:13 celeron55 ot
19:14 celeron55 *it's dated 2013-12-22 but i'm not sure if that's an actual creation date or some backup artifact
19:14 muurkha I forget, does hg have an option to put an hg repo on a bare HTTP server like Git?
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19:14 muurkha like you can git clone http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/dev3/.git even though it's just Apache running on the server
19:15 muurkha just a pile of dumb blobs
19:15 sfan5 celeron55: I guess http://packages.8dromeda.net/minetest/ is your place for old stuff
19:15 muurkha darcs and tla have a similar feature but I forget if hg does
19:15 sfan5 but if you find the git repo it'd be cool to have it as an archive on GH
19:16 muurkha what's the best way to map hg branches to git branches?
19:16 celeron55 sfan5: well i put it here so you can get it http://fpaste.dy.fi/c52/dl
19:16 sfan5 ty
19:17 celeron55 what are your plans with it?
19:17 celeron55 it's basically a very old stripped down mtg
19:17 celeron55 not sure what the usecase is
19:18 sfan5 wanted to figure out which sounds old versions had only to notice that default_break_glass.ogg is nowhere to be found in git (but it is in release ZIPs)
19:18 sfan5 as for the final usecase you'll find out soon
19:18 hn_ someone here having acc on gpt-3? just askin
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19:32 independent56 When is the funeral service for #minetest-hub ?
19:33 independent56 You know, bury the channel graciously and say final prayers to the deceased channel
19:33 hn_ idk but i want too. even site down :/
19:36 independent56 "Today we celebrate the life of #minetest-hub killed by how solitary they like to make themselves."
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19:45 independent56 I know the exact wrong way of highlighting air blocks
19:45 independent56 /highlight air:air
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20:16 independent56 Whoa.... what caused this mass emmigration and immigration?
20:16 sfan5 netsplit
20:17 muurkha yeah, that's a netsplit.  two of the servers in libera's DAG lost a connection
20:17 sfan5 btw because English is a very consistency language, "emigration" is written with one m
20:17 sfan5 consistent*
20:18 muurkha consistent would be "inmigration" and "exmigration", but the assimilation of the final consonant was already present in Classical Latin
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20:18 independent56 Ugh. THis is why i invented Renglish.
20:19 independent56 Phonetic spelling: Emeīgraītun
20:19 independent56 But it is slightly approximated to fit the building blocks which is the writing system
20:20 muurkha for http://canonical.org/~kragen/alphanumerenglish I pressed Arabic digits into service
20:21 muurkha so you get 1megr8cen and 3megr8cen
20:21 muurkha unfortunately my dialect has the PIN-PEN merger so I pronounce them exactly the same
20:25 definitelya ???
20:26 muurkha what part don't you understand, definitelya?
20:26 definitelya Just the numbers in there, but I saw it's from that link.
20:27 muurkha "1t's almost ridebel w164ut sp3cel tr8ni6, despait qe n3ses3ri k2mpremaizez 1n qi esainment ev gr4fimz te fonimz."
20:28 definitelya The language of the Gods.
20:28 muurkha oh, I thought that was Lojban?
20:28 definitelya Probably yeah ahah.
20:28 definitelya Very peculiar
20:28 Pexin lisp)))))))))))
20:29 muurkha no love for Lua?
20:30 independent56 Haha, Renglish better as it use macron for dipthong
20:30 MTDiscord <luatic> muurkha: This "bug" is necessary to accomplish decent perf I suppose
20:30 MTDiscord <luatic> The common case is that metamethods are absent, so you'll want to optimize for that
20:31 muurkha luatic: that's true, but I doubt the performance difference is significant
20:31 independent56 aī can reīd' ꙍis'
20:31 independent56 That's the Renglish spelling of "I can read this"
20:31 muurkha I suspect the real reason is robustness
20:31 muurkha right, I understand
20:31 MTDiscord <luatic> if metatables could themselves have metatables, each of those would trigger yet another metatable check & possible table indexing
20:32 muurkha independent56: have you thought about grouping the letters into syllable blocks, hangeul-style?
20:32 MTDiscord <luatic> muurkha: a similar question recently posed on the Lua mailing list was why __eq doesn't allow e.g. comparing tables against numbers and returning true
20:32 independent56 Good idea, but i want Renglish to be compatible with Unicode
20:32 independent56 I don't think unicode would be happy accomidating such a small dialect
20:32 independent56 (Speakers: 1)
20:32 MTDiscord <luatic> i.e. why it always did the type checks first (this is frustrating when implementing own number types and comparing against constants like 0 or 1)
20:33 muurkha yeah, that's a real problem
20:33 MTDiscord <luatic> again, the reasons are probably perf & robustness
20:33 muurkha you know what Python numpy does in the case of numpy.array([4, 3, 5, 1, 4]) == 4?
20:34 muurkha you get array([ True, False, False, False,  True], dtype=bool), which is astoundingly useful
20:35 independent56 Wait a minute whilst i publish Renglish for the first time
20:35 muurkha yay!
20:38 definitelya independent56: Publish it here, too ahah. https://esolangs.org
20:39 independent56 Hmm, good idea
20:39 MTDiscord <luatic> is it a proglang?
20:39 independent56 Haha, spoken languages are not programming languages
20:39 MTDiscord <luatic> then no
20:39 muurkha I'm not sure an esoteric orthography for English qualifies as an esoteric language or a conlang, but it might be worth a try
20:39 independent56 You can only write poor pseudocode with Renglish
20:39 muurkha maybe you could write a compiler from Renglish to espeak phoneme input
20:39 independent56 Really, Renglish is a conlang based off English but with some differences
20:40 muurkha then you could claim it's a programming language with the same degree of justification as https://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish
20:41 independent56 I can speakev in Renglisho grammaro, but it soundsol differentol due to differentol grammaro.
20:41 independent56 Notably, the inclusion of word-class affixes
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20:43 muurkha luatic: this allows you to write things like numpy.where(a > b, c, d), which selects items from c corresponding to indices where 'a > b' is true and items from d otherwise
20:44 MTDiscord <luatic> mhm
20:44 giov4[m] <Krock> "giov4: do you have a simple..." <- not anymore sorry, but it's really easy: just add a particle spawner to a player and rejoin into the server
20:44 independent56 http://56i.duckdns.org/blog/#Announcing%20Renglish
20:44 independent56 Here is the page for Renglish
20:45 independent56 I reccomend the Dictionary for the writing system, the main page for grammar
20:45 muurkha yay new conlang
20:45 independent56 It's nowhere near finished and piggybacks off English for features
20:47 Krock giov4[m]: I had a look at the problem but it turns out the particle spawner stuff is really rudimentary and needs quite some more code to make this possible
20:48 sfan5 it's both a missing feature and a bug
20:49 independent56 There are actually three ways of writing consonants depending on access to typing resources
20:51 independent56 First you would use extended cyrillic, then diacritics, and then double letters
20:51 independent56 Some are inspired by English versions.
20:51 MTDiscord <luatic> sfan5: could modders work around this by storing these particle spawners and sending them to players on joinplayer?
20:51 MTDiscord <luatic> or are there any glaring issues I'm missing?
20:52 sfan5 modders cannot send particle spawners
20:52 MTDiscord <luatic> add_particlespawner
20:52 sfan5 that adds a new one
20:52 MTDiscord <luatic> with the playername property sent
20:52 sfan5 that still duplicates it
20:52 MTDiscord <luatic> yes, but you can calculate the amount & time left
20:52 MTDiscord <luatic> sfan5: but the player didn't get it, correct?
20:52 MTDiscord <luatic> since he joined after it was added
20:53 sfan5 let's cut this short: it's not impossible to work around but impractical
20:53 MTDiscord <luatic> (and yes, this would duplicate it if this is fixed eventually, but currently it might work)
20:53 Krock I came to the conclusion that it would be easiest to implement particle spawners as a new type of active object
20:53 Krock since the code for showing them on the map is already there. still it's a bad idea due to u16 limitations
20:54 MTDiscord <luatic> sounds well, but (a) what about velartrill's PR? (2) please not all the ObjectRef overhead (props etc.)
20:54 Krock I stopped there because reason (a) and there would be basically no overhead
20:55 Krock at least CPU-wise. it would take more memory though
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21:08 Pexin luatic: well I see someone is a fan of paul reiser
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21:10 MTDiscord <luatic> googles Paul Reiser
21:11 Pexin can't find video clip, but a thing he always did in "mad about you" was list things as (a) and (2)
21:15 MTDiscord <luatic> hehe oof
21:15 muurkha ⓐ ... ② ... ⅲ ... Ⅳ ... 戊 ...
21:15 MTDiscord <luatic> normally I use numbers
21:16 MTDiscord <luatic> this time my brain somehow decided to go with (a), I realized that and thought "hmm, gotta use (b) for (2)" then but it appears my subconscious hasn't listened
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21:55 sfan5 !mod mobs_redo
21:55 MinetestBot sfan5: Mobs Redo [mobs] by TenPlus1 - https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=9917 - https://notabug.org/TenPlus1/mobs_redo
22:04 independent_ I remember when i used to think that digilines was a ripoff of mesecons
22:04 independent_ lol
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22:53 Noisytoot independent56: How do you create a phonetic spelling for English when dialects differ in how they pronounce things?
22:54 independent56 My specific version of Renglish is toned to my pronunciation of words, and other people have differet spelling
22:54 independent56 But the dictionary is the offical spelling for Renglish and is how things should be spelt in British Renglish
22:57 Noisytoot Do you pronounce the "s" in "has" unvoiced?
23:03 independent56 It's very soft, so i would spell it Has, but other dialectical dictionaries could spell it haz
23:03 independent56 Whic now i think of it, explains the American meme "Haz x?"
23:29 muurkha you could just pick a dialect
23:30 muurkha Indian English is the national variety with the most speakers but it has a lot of internal variation
23:31 muurkha for alphanumerenglish (2lfenum3ri6gl1c?) I just used my own speech, which is mostly GA.  en_US has significant internal variation too, embracing AAVE, GA, and Southern English among others
23:31 muurkha my girlfriend listens to these various en_US dialects and asks me how it's possible for me to understand what people are saying
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