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| 06:38 |
celeron55 |
settl3r[m]: mostly i'm keeping the forum running, and answering the odd historical questions that pop up that nobody knows the answer for. well, also i'm managing changes in the core team. also when someone emails me with questions about minetest that aren't arrogant or stupid i try to answer those, often it's about the licenses |
| 06:41 |
celeron55 |
also it seems i'm still trusted in things related to the trademark, i.e. the minetest name, which means stuff like deciding which things have official status and which don't |
| 06:42 |
celeron55 |
but that's probably only because i try to be reasonable |
| 06:42 |
celeron55 |
i guess it's not a bad thing |
| 06:50 |
celeron55 |
it kind of means absolutely nothing in terms of what's happening day-to-day, but i do try to manage the big picture. i mean, looking after the project in such a way that it's set up right for the longest possible timescale, not just for the next release or so |
| 07:03 |
celeron55 |
it's not because i especially like doing it, but it's because as i have had less time for MT, i have had to drop programming first as it takes so much time and almost anyone can program. on the other hand this doesn't take a lot of time and nobody else is going to do it. the fact that i don't have time for programming doesn't mean i can't do a few very important less time consuming tasks |
| 07:05 |
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| 07:05 |
celeron55 |
(yes, this is an overblown answer to settl3r[m]'s questionably thoughtful question, but i do think i should at least sometimes publish a description like this about my doings, so here it is this time) |
| 07:10 |
celeron55 |
and as an example of my infinite scale-of-the-universe type widsom, my analysis of the recent developments is: the blog is nice, we needed the blog |
| 07:17 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> even devtest looks good if palettified |
| 07:17 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973846239525363742/screenshot_20220511_091647.png |
| 07:17 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> noo not my beloved vomit dirt |
| 07:19 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> NodeCore |
| 07:19 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973846669928067132/screenshot_20220511_091841.png |
| 07:21 |
sfan5 |
good is relative |
| 07:22 |
erle |
explain palettified |
| 07:23 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> erle: converts all textures to use zughy's palette iirc |
| 07:23 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> not necessarily Zughy's, these screenshots use the Apollo palette |
| 07:24 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> erle: Have some MCL screenshots |
| 07:24 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973847986566201344/screenshot_20220511_092321.png |
| 07:24 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973847986851418202/screenshot_20220511_092316.png |
| 07:24 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973847987115667477/screenshot_20220511_092302.png |
| 07:24 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973847987375722526/screenshot_20220511_092245.png |
| 07:24 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973847987698671657/screenshot_20220511_092242.png |
| 07:24 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973847987937738752/screenshot_20220511_092238.png |
| 07:24 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973847988202008606/screenshot_20220511_092234.png |
| 07:24 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973847988562706462/screenshot_20220511_092223.png |
| 07:24 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973847989024096256/screenshot_20220511_092216.png |
| 07:24 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973847989305081876/screenshot_20220511_092203.png |
| 07:25 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> anyways, it's a media-generating-overriding mod which basically uses RGB dithering (which is somewhat incorrect, I'm aware) and a decent closest color func to convert all textures into textures using only colors of a certain palette |
| 07:25 |
erle |
these colors are too satuarated |
| 07:25 |
erle |
at least for the tree trunks |
| 07:26 |
erle |
nah, also for other stuff |
| 07:26 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> it's a very limited palette: https://lospec.com/palette-list/apollo |
| 07:26 |
erle |
too saturated and too dark |
| 07:26 |
erle |
try tango icon palette |
| 07:27 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> can you send a PNG? |
| 07:27 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> (of all colors of the palette) |
| 07:27 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> because that's what my mod supports |
| 07:28 |
erle |
i can, but that thing is in GIMP, you might be faster on your own |
| 07:28 |
erle |
wait for it though |
| 07:28 |
erle |
give me a few minutes |
| 07:29 |
celeron55 |
for some minetest textures you might have to desaturate them a bit before applying a less saturated palette |
| 07:30 |
erle |
luatic it's not a PNG, but this texturepack here has “over_colorpalette.tga” and i think it contains the palette! https://github.com/Li0nsDickachu/a_minetest_texturepack |
| 07:30 |
erle |
oh there is also https://github.com/Li0nsDickachu/a_minetest_texturepack/blob/main/colorpalette.png |
| 07:30 |
erle |
luatic can you try that? |
| 07:31 |
erle |
i think “a_minetest_texturepack” should be on CDB. it is unique, in that it has both the smallest filesizes of any texture pack I have seen and all textures are 5×5 |
| 07:31 |
erle |
i'll try to convince the author |
| 07:31 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> can't you put it on CDB yourself? |
| 07:32 |
erle |
i can, but i will only put stuff on CDB if there is no chance the author will |
| 07:32 |
erle |
https://github.com/Li0nsDickachu/a_minetest_texturepack/blob/main/Colorpalette2.png exists too |
| 07:32 |
erle |
you can try that too |
| 07:32 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> the first one looks like a white square to me? |
| 07:32 |
erle |
which one? |
| 07:33 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Li0nsDickachu/a_minetest_texturepack/main/colorpalette.png |
| 07:33 |
erle |
let me check |
| 07:34 |
erle |
luatic it is a white square, but the picture contains the color palette. you can check that by opening it with a program like mtpaint |
| 07:34 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> how does it contain the palette? |
| 07:34 |
erle |
in the chunk? |
| 07:34 |
erle |
wait do you know about palette chunks |
| 07:35 |
erle |
i think you should? |
| 07:35 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I do |
| 07:35 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> But you didn't make it clear that it was contained that way |
| 07:35 |
erle |
luatic look here https://mister-muffin.de/p/kHKX.png |
| 07:35 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> PNG allows hiding colors in transparent pixels too for instance |
| 07:36 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> anyways here's some MTG with the second one |
| 07:36 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973851059544006656/screenshot_20220511_093610.png |
| 07:37 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> does mtpaint allow exporting it? my PNG reader only uses the PLTE chunk to determine image colors |
| 07:37 |
erle |
luatic i believe that the creative process for paletted texture sets is as follows: 1. copy an empty picture with the color palette set to a new file. 2. edit it. 3. optionally, remove unused colors from the palette. |
| 07:37 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> erle: can you make a screenshot of the palette? (not including the black border and the white numbers OFC) |
| 07:37 |
erle |
in that case it makes a lot of sense to have the palette in the palette description in the file only and not as pixels |
| 07:38 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I see |
| 07:38 |
erle |
also, I think yuo can not hide a palette properly in transparent pixels, as the palette entries might have transparenly too. |
| 07:38 |
erle |
transparency |
| 07:38 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> NVM I can crop it out too |
| 07:38 |
erle |
ok! |
| 07:38 |
erle |
i look at the screenshot now |
| 07:38 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973851690275070022/Bildschirmfoto_von_2022-05-11_09-38-38.png |
| 07:39 |
erle |
luatic you should try “a minetest texturepack” with mcl2 or so. it is quite unique in its way. i like the nether portal A LOT. |
| 07:40 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> here's the first palette - doesn't really play well with the grass unfortunately |
| 07:40 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973852132631535626/screenshot_20220511_094010.png |
| 07:40 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973852132883181608/screenshot_20220511_094007.png |
| 07:41 |
erle |
this does not look like dithering is happening |
| 07:42 |
sfan5 |
are you sure your closest color function works in linear light |
| 07:44 |
celeron55 |
offtopic note: it's almost unbelievable how much work people are putting into making mods game agnostic. mods staying tied to a (the) single game was one of the biggest risks in setting this path for the engine and community |
| 07:45 |
erle |
the only reason i see for having mods to be tied to a game is if they are intimately tied to a single games mechanic |
| 07:46 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> erle: yes, I have some bugs in there, just fixed em |
| 07:46 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> but probably introduced new ones lol |
| 07:46 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> fixed the green grass but now the other grass is scorched |
| 07:46 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973853594719768576/screenshot_20220511_094539.png |
| 07:46 |
celeron55 |
the other reason is them initially having been made for a single game and nobody having the time to remove the limitation, which was the risk |
| 07:46 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> my alpha weighing is probably broken |
| 07:47 |
celeron55 |
anyway, my point is, there looks to be enough momentum now to overcome this |
| 07:47 |
erle |
luatic sounds a bit like the kind of problems i had when developing the A1R5G5B5 map writing function haha |
| 07:48 |
erle |
i wonder hmmm |
| 07:48 |
erle |
what if |
| 07:48 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> graphical problems at least look interesting |
| 07:48 |
erle |
dynamic texture changes |
| 07:48 |
erle |
“interesting” |
| 07:48 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> would be very fancy |
| 07:48 |
celeron55 |
if i wasn't finnish i'd say this is super relieving and exiting, but i'll go with "nice" |
| 07:50 |
erle |
celeron55 are you saying the stereotypes about finland are rooted in fact? :D |
| 07:50 |
celeron55 |
they're not stereotypes, they're facts |
| 07:51 |
erle |
“finns do not like the 2m social distancing rule, they would rather go back to the normal 5m distance” etc. |
| 07:52 |
erle |
you know, i recently warned a friend to take a train earlier and i realized a german fun fact: no one expects the trains to run on time |
| 07:52 |
erle |
i wonder if this is different in other countries, i almost expect it to be |
| 07:52 |
celeron55 |
i don't know of any country where trains can be trusted to be on schedule, other than japan |
| 07:53 |
erle |
oh right, but japan is legendary hor harassing train drivers and even docking their pay if they are late and so on |
| 07:53 |
celeron55 |
well, that's what it takes |
| 07:53 |
erle |
i read that it once lead to a horrible crash because someone was late and sped through a curve |
| 07:53 |
erle |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amagasaki_derailment |
| 07:54 |
erle |
> 106 passengers, in addition to the driver, were killed and 562 others injured |
| 07:54 |
erle |
so the train had a 90 second delay, so the driver went WAY too fast |
| 07:54 |
celeron55 |
in finland trains are operated fairly well, but we have italian made trains, very strict safety systems and winters. those don't go well together |
| 07:55 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> hmm the scorched tips could actually be correct dithering |
| 07:55 |
erle |
> The speed limit on the segment of track where the derailment happened was 70 km/h (43 mph). The data recorder in the rear of the train (the rear cars were new and equipped with many extra devices) later showed that the train was moving at 116 km/h (72 mph) |
| 07:55 |
erle |
celeron55 in italy, the trains run on thyme hehehehehe |
| 07:57 |
erle |
celeron55 i think the best finnish fun fact i have read so far was about a NATO excercize in which a finnish unit won some kind of simulation against a USA unit and in the report, a finnish soldier was quoted as “when the temperatures dropped to 2 digits below zero, we knew, conditions were in our favor”. |
| 07:57 |
erle |
exersize? how is this word written |
| 07:57 |
erle |
i should get more awake |
| 07:58 |
erle |
well, ig it was a „NATO and soon-to-be-NATO” thing |
| 08:00 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> erle: “finns do not like the 2m social distancing rule, they would rather go back to the normal 5m distance” heh, neither do swedes :P |
| 08:00 |
celeron55 |
southern swedes are basically italians, but i can respect the northern ones |
| 08:01 |
erle |
i would like such a culture much more than the touchy-feelie one i am living in |
| 08:01 |
erle |
one of the few upsides of the pandemic is that no one wants to randomly touch |
| 08:01 |
erle |
so i don't need to be rude when i do not want to shake hands or hug strangers |
| 08:02 |
erle |
i hope it stays that way |
| 08:02 |
celeron55 |
the pandemic basically completely ended in finland, is it the same in the rest of europe? |
| 08:02 |
celeron55 |
i mean, the masks and stuff |
| 08:04 |
erle |
as far as i am aware, it depends on what you are measuring. if you measure “who is getting sick?”, nothing has ended. if you measure “how many deaths?” it seems to have been better since the advent of vaccines. however, many countries seem to have switched to “how much capacity does our health system have” to gauge how strict measures should be I think? |
| 08:04 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> erle: I believe now it's correct |
| 08:04 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973858150056861716/screenshot_20220511_100419.png |
| 08:04 |
celeron55 |
nobody wears a mask or talks about vaccinations since... well, since russia's green men crossed the ukrainian border |
| 08:04 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973858245603119114/screenshot_20220511_100450.png |
| 08:05 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973858245884141598/screenshot_20220511_100447.png |
| 08:05 |
erle |
hey, i'm getting my 2nd booster on friday! and i am wearing a mask every time i go outside. |
| 08:05 |
erle |
celeron55 to be fair, russian aggression can kill far faster than covid. |
| 08:05 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> celeron55: probably depends on the region, but indeed it isn't that much a topic anymore in Germany |
| 08:05 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> of a topic* |
| 08:06 |
celeron55 |
luatic: those screenshots look like there could be some pre-processing before applying the palette, to use the palette better |
| 08:06 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> well, this is a small palette |
| 08:06 |
erle |
luatic it looks nice, but have you tried adding some artificial noise? |
| 08:06 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> (a 32 one, the zughy palette) |
| 08:06 |
erle |
like, first palettize it, then noise it up |
| 08:07 |
erle |
well, the pandemic is certainly a topic if you look at “should we go to the office” |
| 08:07 |
celeron55 |
try increasing the brightness and decreasing the saturation before applying the palette |
| 08:07 |
erle |
i am working in an all-remote team and our team events are not in-person |
| 08:07 |
erle |
we only go to the office to meet everyone when we have to |
| 08:07 |
celeron55 |
to make the source material match the palette better |
| 08:07 |
erle |
which was like … once in 2 years so far? |
| 08:07 |
celeron55 |
oh yes, remote work has stayed high |
| 08:07 |
celeron55 |
that's something i do like |
| 08:08 |
erle |
i hope that ALSO stays that way |
| 08:08 |
celeron55 |
and which is also good for the environment and whatnot |
| 08:08 |
erle |
remote work is so much more relaxing |
| 08:08 |
erle |
also i don't need to get dressed :P |
| 08:08 |
erle |
i worked remote before the pandemic |
| 08:08 |
celeron55 |
i did too, it didn't really change anything for me |
| 08:08 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Hmm, the Floyd-Steinberg kernel works better than Jarvis-Judice-Ninke |
| 08:08 |
celeron55 |
but that's not the common experience |
| 08:09 |
erle |
celeron55 btw my best example for when mask mandates were abolished so far were denmark and the netherlands. i think they both did this “pandemic is over, everyone chill” thing and then had to backtrack? |
| 08:09 |
erle |
in the netherlands i was even clocked as a german just by the fact that i was wearing a mask |
| 08:10 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> did they have to backtrack though? |
| 08:10 |
celeron55 |
well, obviously the pandemic is going to slowly decrease in severity, not instantly |
| 08:11 |
* Andrew |
looks at the situation here in Shanghai |
| 08:11 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> You're in Shanghai? |
| 08:11 |
Andrew |
Yup |
| 08:11 |
celeron55 |
i think what people should be and are looking for is when it's close to the yearly influenzas. that's the point where emergency measures aren't reasonable anymore |
| 08:12 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> agreed |
| 08:12 |
erle |
i think what people should look at is the deaths from 2 or 3 weeks ago. that long is how it takes to kill. |
| 08:12 |
Andrew |
Today I had to go the the hospital, and we needed to pass six checkpoints, each of those have police asking for a travel permit |
| 08:12 |
erle |
it will always be more accurate to look at that then the current positive test results |
| 08:13 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Andrew: must suck for you, I'm sorry |
| 08:13 |
Andrew |
(Police here aren't armed 99.9% of the time) |
| 08:13 |
Andrew |
It's kinda okay, but online classes suck- mandatory usage of nonfree software |
| 08:13 |
erle |
Andrew that sounds like a very weird public health measure. |
| 08:14 |
erle |
uh, police in germany are usually armed too … is armed police uncommon in other countries? or do you mean militarized police, like scary big weapons and so on? |
| 08:14 |
MTDiscord |
<GSurrounder> like police are naked? |
| 08:14 |
MTDiscord |
<GSurrounder> without guns |
| 08:14 |
Andrew |
More like: You have an emergency situation? Okay, ambulances; You have a non-emergency situation? Wait until you get a negative COVID test and then come |
| 08:14 |
erle |
police is usually armed and legged |
| 08:14 |
MTDiscord |
<GSurrounder> yeah |
| 08:15 |
MTDiscord |
<GSurrounder> bruh |
| 08:15 |
Andrew |
Police here do not carry weapons but do carry handcuffs |
| 08:15 |
Andrew |
They are not naked |
| 08:15 |
Andrew |
... |
| 08:15 |
erle |
Andrew when i go to the doctor it also says on a sign “you have a cough? better stay out and call us”, but you don't need police checkpoints for that |
| 08:15 |
MTDiscord |
<GSurrounder> bro which country are you |
| 08:15 |
Andrew |
They wear large white COVID protection suits |
| 08:15 |
Andrew |
(If you're asking me... Shanghai is in China) |
| 08:16 |
erle |
well i bet it would be unfortunate if the people at the checkpoint catch covid |
| 08:16 |
erle |
are they like spacesuits? |
| 08:16 |
erle |
do you have a picture? |
| 08:16 |
Andrew |
N o |
| 08:16 |
Andrew |
lol |
| 08:16 |
erle |
or like, can you describe it more |
| 08:16 |
Andrew |
erle: No, but they're all around the Internet |
| 08:16 |
erle |
like all i have seen is people wearing masks |
| 08:16 |
erle |
ok i look |
| 08:16 |
Andrew |
erle: I don't take cameras or phones outside usually |
| 08:17 |
Andrew |
Well, my parents do, but... they don't take random pictures |
| 08:17 |
* Andrew |
poofs |
| 08:17 |
erle |
i see |
| 08:17 |
erle |
i probably wouldn't too, if there were checkpoints everywhere |
| 08:17 |
erle |
oh lol, i found the pictures |
| 08:17 |
celeron55 |
it sounds like china is aiming to end the virus completely. well, if it succeeds, it ends up in high efficiency in society, but if it doesn't, then it was all for nothing |
| 08:18 |
erle |
humans are good at eradicating things, living or non-living |
| 08:18 |
paradust |
it could be extremely dangerous for them to try to prevent it from spreading completely |
| 08:19 |
erle |
i mean, didn't some countries manage that for quite a while? |
| 08:19 |
paradust |
successive waves of the virus are becoming more virulent but less lethal because people's immune systems have already adapted |
| 08:19 |
erle |
like australia or new zealand too |
| 08:19 |
erle |
someone coughs, close the city |
| 08:20 |
erle |
(in germany: someone coughs and probably would still go to work if not most stuff was remote haha) |
| 08:20 |
paradust |
it's like what happened to the Native Americans when the Europeans set down. small pox was devastating because they had no exposure to it before |
| 08:21 |
paradust |
doubt China can prevent community transmission from the rest of the world forever |
| 08:21 |
erle |
(most stuff that *can* be remote i know, obv you can't work at a bakery remote lol) |
| 08:21 |
erle |
paradust yeah but vaccines exist |
| 08:22 |
erle |
and i bet they only get better |
| 08:22 |
erle |
along with other medication |
| 08:22 |
erle |
for many people, each day that people do not get covid, they have a bit of a more chance to be better off once they get it |
| 08:22 |
erle |
as society may be more advanced and more experienced in dealing with the illness |
| 08:24 |
erle |
i mean, there are many illnesses which have been common in developed parts of the world just 50 or 100 years ago, but no longer are |
| 08:29 |
erle |
about 2 years ago, i took an antibiotic … and it said on the usage/description paper in the package that it also helps against the plague (i think?) and i was like “oh so that is why this is rare nowadays … ?”. |
| 08:39 |
erle |
celeron55 Andrew ROllerozxa btw, do you also have people in your countries who are very loudly antivax? at least in germany, this seems to go hand-in-hand with being either extreme left-wing or extreme right-wing and also anti-the-current-government and kinda-pro-russia, now i wonder if it is similar in other countries. |
| 08:40 |
erle |
like if you get the full package lol |
| 08:41 |
erle |
i mean, it is not uncommon for ideologies, that they have a bunch of talking points that go together. but this pattern, it just feels … random. to me. |
| 08:42 |
erle |
or maybe it isn't a pattern and these people just cry the loudest about everything hehe |
| 08:46 |
paradust |
in the U.S. at least, the prominent left-wing candidates came out against the vaccine, saying they wouldn't trust anything coming out of Trump's CDC. It switched completely after the election, although Trump himself has continued to promote the vaccine |
| 08:46 |
paradust |
in 2020 |
| 08:47 |
erle |
btw, my personal theory is that while there exist “sheep” who always do what the majority thinks is good, there also exist ”anti-sheep” who always feel good about doing the exact opposite. |
| 08:49 |
erle |
paradust that sounds extremely weird. it's not like trump could personally order pharma companies to make a shitty vaccine lol |
| 08:50 |
paradust |
they relaxed a ton of rules/regulations. normally takes 5 to 10 years to produce a vaccine like that |
| 08:50 |
erle |
yeah of course, but desperate times take desperate measures |
| 08:50 |
erle |
like, think of going to the moon |
| 08:50 |
erle |
or the manhattan project |
| 08:51 |
erle |
paradust to paraphrase lenin: “sometimes decades happpen in which we fuck around and sometimes weeks happen in which we find out” |
| 08:52 |
erle |
paradust the death toll of covid, for many countries, is like the death toll of being in a war |
| 08:53 |
paradust |
the average age of covid death is 70+. not quite a war where primarily 18-24 year olds are dying |
| 08:54 |
paradust |
however for non-covid reasons, Millenials in the US are dying at the fastest rates ever |
| 08:54 |
paradust |
about an extra 50,000 a year due to deaths of despair. That is on pair with the entire US casualties from the Vietnam War |
| 08:55 |
erle |
a bit less than a year ago, the number of covid deaths in the USA exceeded the number of american soldiers who died in world war II. obviously it is not a good comparison due to different cirumstances, but any just government would pour a lot of energy into preventing it from getting even worse. |
| 08:55 |
erle |
so i am not surprised at the pace of vaccine development |
| 08:56 |
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| 09:07 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I doubt that "zero COVID" strategies (like China's) are feasible considering the virulency of Omicron. |
| 09:07 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> infectiosity* |
| 09:08 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> erle: not much here in sweden from what I've seen or heard (my classmates and family have all gotten the vaccine, none are really opposed to it) but of course you can probably find it if you go actively looking for it on flashback or whatever |
| 09:09 |
erle |
what's “flashback”? |
| 09:24 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> oh it's a quite large swedish forum which comprises of a wide number of different topics and also generally has free speech so you'll probably be able to find some antivaxx people on there |
| 09:33 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> "antivaxx" is an overused term; many who refuse the COVID vaccines in particular aren't opposed to vaccinations in general |
| 09:34 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> The German language allows differentiating the two groups as "Impfgegner" ("antivaxxers") and "Impfskeptiker" (literal translation along the lines of "vax skepticists") |
| 09:38 |
erle |
luatic, IMO that's mostly sugar-coating the issue. after all, you can also say “putin-freunde” (“putin friend”) or “putin-versteher” (“putin understander”), but effectively, both of them say the same things – the latter only try to stay “respectable”. |
| 09:39 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> erle: Not at all. There's a large difference between skepticism and general (often poorly motivated) refusal. |
| 09:40 |
erle |
luatic no one i know who has legitimate concerns wants to be called “impfskeptiker”. like, i can think of two people with autoimmune diseases that had bad vaccination reactions (the vaccination strengthens the immune system … the immune system fucks up everything), i doubt they would like to be called that. |
| 09:40 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> There also is a massive difference between "friend" and "understander", but it seems likely that "understander" is misused in this context. |
| 09:41 |
erle |
yeah, it is the misuse |
| 09:41 |
erle |
the language allows the nuance, but media tries to be not too offensive |
| 09:41 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> erle: Don't mix skepticists and those with contraindications up. |
| 09:41 |
erle |
luatic i guess i dun goofed! |
| 09:42 |
erle |
luatic isn't “the expected value of the vax might be negative, i need more information” the sceptic position? |
| 09:43 |
erle |
i am pretty sure, *I* don't understand the nuance you are trying to convey here |
| 09:44 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> the nuance is that the contraindications you call "legitimate concerns" are officially recognized |
| 09:48 |
erle |
so that is why you wouldn't call it “sceptic” anymore? |
| 09:48 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> yes |
| 09:48 |
erle |
(since it is official policy to take it into account) |
| 09:49 |
erle |
well, then what does “sceptic” mean here, except having a distrust of authorities? (which might be justified, obviously) |
| 09:50 |
Andrew |
erle: No, we don't have many antivax people |
| 09:51 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> We don't have many antivax people either (although we probably have more than in China). |
| 09:54 |
Oblomov |
well, cuba seems to have gotten pretty close to zero-covid just with vaccination |
| 09:55 |
Oblomov |
having a pediatric vaccine probably helped, kids and schools remain one of the main carrier factors when you keep them open and maskless |
| 09:55 |
Oblomov |
has anybody made a covid mod for mtg? 8-D |
| 10:02 |
MTDiscord |
<MNH48> there's also difference between 'general antivaxxer' and 'covid antivaxxer' ... I know of many people here who will gladly get many other vaccines but will refuse to get covid-19 vaccine .. shrugs |
| 10:04 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> ^ |
| 10:07 |
MTDiscord |
<MNH48> though we had like 82% of population fully vaccinated against covid-19 now, so everything is kinda relaxed |
| 10:08 |
MTDiscord |
<MNH48> face mask is now only mandatory indoor like malls or shops where air circulation could be bad and packed areas like in public transport -- you can now go outside to touch grass or jog etc without wearing mask (previously it was mandatory) |
| 10:09 |
MTDiscord |
<MNH48> but as someone who always wear face mask even before covid was a thing, I'll continue wearing face mask as usual lol |
| 10:10 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> celeron55: re your influenza remark: that's supposedly why COVID is not the main point of concern anymore - see e.g. https://www.ft.com/content/e26c93a0-90e7-4dec-a796-3e25e94bc59b |
| 10:10 |
MTDiscord |
<MNH48> lol paywalled article |
| 10:11 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> is it paywalled though? I can read it just fine and I haven't paid a dime |
| 10:11 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> this is odd, when referenced from Google search results it's not paywalled |
| 10:12 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> @MNH48 try this one: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcontent%2Fe26c93a0-90e7-4dec-a796-3e25e94bc59b&usg=AOvVaw2vDXy7YjjR5Ey6CaQqJL3a |
| 10:13 |
MTDiscord |
<MNH48> oh, that worked ... probably the google link is using some kind of "library referral" mechanism |
| 10:13 |
MTDiscord |
<MNH48> like how if you have library membership you can read many articles for free via that library's online portal |
| 10:13 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> or they just accept some tasty data as alternative payment method ¯_(ツ)_/¯ |
| 10:14 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> (supposedly tasty data that is) |
| 10:17 |
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| 10:21 |
Andrew |
We have 90% vaccinated, but they're ineffective inactive-virus vaccines instead of mRNA ones due to concerns of DNS manipulation |
| 10:21 |
Andrew |
*DNA |
| 10:22 |
Andrew |
Which is possible, but occurs about one in a billion...) |
| 10:38 |
settl3r[m] |
How is privacy handled in MT? Does it send UUID to servers? |
| 10:44 |
erle |
luatic they want to be found in search engines, but not be linked lol |
| 10:45 |
erle |
Andrew if science could do DNS manipulation well, i'd let the state vax me for better 5G reception hehe |
| 10:45 |
erle |
DNA |
| 10:46 |
erle |
settl3r[m] minetest accounts are not global. traffic is unencrypted. logins are protected by SRP. |
| 10:46 |
erle |
settl3r[m] if you want an IFF system, i suggest to use a CSM and a cryptographic challenge |
| 10:47 |
erle |
settl3r[m] waspsaliva contains a “frenemies” mod that can mark other users as friend or enemy and it contains a friend to friend encrypted chat feature, but it lacks the IFF challenge |
| 10:47 |
sfan5 |
speedrun challenge: ask any question and wait for erle to mention CSMs and his favorite two cheat clients |
| 10:47 |
erle |
settl3r[m] which has actuallly lead to someone tricking others by choosing a well-known username |
| 10:48 |
erle |
sfan5 to my knowledge, CSM is the only way to do it, but you do not need a cheat client for it. |
| 10:48 |
erle |
i may be wrong though, so is there some UUID feature? |
| 10:49 |
erle |
i see waspsaliva primarily as a repository of weird CSMs |
| 10:49 |
sfan5 |
I don't know what an "IFF system" is but I suspect who asked the question is not interested in that |
| 10:50 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> sfan5: I believe Minetest should be encrypting some messages (chat in particular) because (1) latency & perf. doesn't matter as much for those and (2) they being trusted does matter (i.e. consider the //lua cmd which is locked behind the server priv). |
| 10:52 |
erle |
sfan5 identification-friend-or-foe. the general term for systems where one actor interrogates another by means of a (most likely cryptographic) challenge and can positively identifiy friendlies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identification_friend_or_foe |
| 10:54 |
erle |
luatic you can solve the integrity problem by means of a message authentication code (MAC) which should not be that big of a burden. |
| 10:56 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Minetest should just fully encrypt and authenticate all network traffic. It's just easier to pull in existing systems for this than to try to roll your own and have to make decisions about the sensitivity of each piece of traffic, and then have one flawed assumption bring it all down. |
| 10:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The only hard part is the trust model to use for servers (assuming we want to keep using passwords for clients). TOFU like SSH is arguably not as strong as PKI like TLS, but LetsEncrypt requires you to have at least a fixed hostname and a web server so TOFU would be more accessible... |
| 11:06 |
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| 11:07 |
erle |
TOFU is a good first thing though |
| 11:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Might work out just fine since we already have that registration screen; could just stick a server fingerprint on there too or something. |
| 11:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> We'd have to store trusted keys though... |
| 11:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> And then single users with multiple devices becomes a somewhat annoying workflow. |
| 11:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> But I guess users will just blindly click trust anyway, so mostly the security will rely on them just not happening to get MITM'd the first time they use a particular device. As long as they use only a few devices and don't reset storage, that should be fine probably. |
| 11:30 |
definitelya |
celeron, seriously, do not come to Italy. Highest taxation rates in EU, lowest employment of women in EU, and I'm just getting started... |
| 11:31 |
definitelya |
Not even our government officials take their job seriously anymore. |
| 11:39 |
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| 11:40 |
erle |
definitelya hahaha i once randomly got a very old german book (“haarige eisen” – literally “hairy irons”, it is a nonsense-title) in which i found a comic that was set “in the far future, the year ¾ after berlusconi” |
| 11:41 |
definitelya |
The man, the legend. :) |
| 11:42 |
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| 11:44 |
erle |
definitelya if a person is on wikipedia, the last sentence of the part before the table of contents is often interesting |
| 11:44 |
erle |
for berlusconi, it ends with “[…] having vast conflicts of interest due to ownership of a media empire with which he has restricted freedom of information and finally, being blackmailed as leader because of his turbulent private life.” |
| 11:45 |
definitelya |
Sums it up nicely, yeah. |
| 11:46 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> does anybody know whether the halo rainbowing when it is fully opaque is intended? |
| 11:46 |
definitelya |
Scumbag even served his sentence with forced public labor. |
| 11:46 |
erle |
for putin it is “Putin's Russia has scored poorly on Transparency International's Corruption Perceptions Index, the Economist Intelligence Unit's Democracy Index, and Freedom House's Freedom in the World index. Putin is the second-longest currently serving European president after Alexander Lukashenko of Belarus.” |
| 11:46 |
erle |
lol ima gonna look up merkel next haha |
| 11:46 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973914004823089232/halo.png |
| 11:46 |
erle |
“… would not seek a fifth term as Chancellor in the 2021 federal election.” |
| 11:47 |
erle |
yes i knew that lol |
| 11:47 |
erle |
luatic i can't see shit what is this even, a halo for ANTS? |
| 11:58 |
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| 12:01 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> it's a #888 halo and it gets a rainbow animation by MT if I use it |
| 12:01 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/888 -- Anaglyph: selection box isn't done in 3d |
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MTDiscord |
<luatic> (888 is the color) |
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| 17:11 |
Parnikkapore_m |
Uh, so somehow the latest signs_lib crashes on certain occasions on my world. The last version doesn't crash in the same situation. |
| 17:12 |
Parnikkapore_m |
I am using street_signs |
| 17:14 |
sfan5 |
I think the crash log is of interest |
| 17:14 |
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| 17:18 |
* Parnikkapore_m |
sent a code block: https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/460c5ca22787a40b557630ce5031519f40b973c8 |
| 17:22 |
Parnikkapore_m |
sfan5: |
| 17:23 |
sfan5 |
hmm yea I can't make out anything specific, you'll have more luck talking to the other of the respective mod |
| 17:31 |
Parnikkapore_m |
It looks like on my computer some of the basic_signs signs are not in the `sign` group??? |
| 17:39 |
Parnikkapore_m |
it is that way in the code. Writing a couple of messages in the repos now. |
| 17:57 |
Soni |
does minetest support proxy? |
| 17:59 |
sfan5 |
what kind of "proxy" |
| 18:00 |
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| 18:03 |
erle |
Soni there exist two proxies for minetest i know of. one is a server multiplexer by himbeerserverDE which can make several servers appear like a single one, if i am not mistaken. the other one is a rewriting proxy by anon5, which can be used to analyze and rewrite the traffic. it is mostly used to prevent the sending of item meta to the client to reduce lag when a client has a lot of items with big metadata (e.g. shulkers full of |
| 18:03 |
erle |
shulkers). |
| 18:04 |
erle |
Soni https://github.com/HimbeerserverDE/mt-multiserver-proxy https://github.com/OysterityAnarchy/mt-netopt-proxy are the two |
| 18:05 |
erle |
Soni this is a go module you can use to make your own proxy https://github.com/anon55555/mt |
| 18:06 |
rubenwardy |
Those are reverse proxies |
| 18:07 |
erle |
yeah well, but like, what kind of other proxy do you imagine? |
| 18:07 |
rubenwardy |
A forward proxy would be used on the client side to access the internet |
| 18:07 |
erle |
oh |
| 18:08 |
rubenwardy |
Minetest is a UDP application, you can use any software that works with UDP |
| 18:08 |
erle |
you mean like SOCKS |
| 18:13 |
jonadab |
Theoretically, a proxy can be on the client side, on the server side, or somewhere in between, and operates in essentially the same basic manner regardless. Though there are some configuration differences, e.g., a server-side proxy is typically set up to only proxy requests addressed to that one specific server. |
| 18:14 |
jonadab |
(Otherwise it would be an "open proxy", which is frowned upon.) |
| 18:15 |
rubenwardy |
Yeah, forward and reverse proxies are both types of proxies |
| 18:38 |
Soni |
well, yes, both |
| 18:38 |
Soni |
for reasons |
| 18:43 |
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| 19:04 |
erle |
rubenwardy can you tell me what “mod name does not match package name” means here? https://content.minetest.net/packages/erlehmann/crashtest/ |
| 19:04 |
erle |
this is a modpack with one mod |
| 19:10 |
erle |
rubenwardy wsor can i do anything to fix this? |
| 19:10 |
erle |
oh sorry i should open a thread ig |
| 19:11 |
erle |
done |
| 19:23 |
ROllerozxa |
I assume it's because it expects a modpack to have a mod inside that matches the name of the mod, alongside other mods inside the modpack (i.e. worldedit is a modpack but one of the mods it contains is called 'worldedit') |
| 19:23 |
ROllerozxa |
s/matches the name of the mod/matches the name of the modpack/g |
| 19:34 |
erle |
i dun goofed thx |
| 19:41 |
rubenwardy |
It's only because there's only one mod |
| 19:41 |
rubenwardy |
also, that mod doesn't meet CDB requirements |
| 19:41 |
rubenwardy |
under 2.2: state of completion, something designed to crash the engine isn't sufficiently useful to end users |
| 19:42 |
erle |
rubenwardy it is |
| 19:43 |
erle |
rubenwardy this is stuff i could never get into devtest |
| 19:44 |
erle |
rubenwardy let me guess i need to ALSO add the fixes for this? |
| 19:44 |
erle |
i can do that |
| 19:45 |
erle |
rubenwardy hmm, no, i actually need a standalone thing that tries to crash the engine, because there are some bugs that have multiple fixes. |
| 19:45 |
erle |
but i'll add more to it ig |
| 19:48 |
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| 20:06 |
erle |
appguru btw check this out for a loop that mysteriously disappears https://vector-of-bool.github.io/2022/05/11/char8-memset.html |
| 20:17 |
erle |
rubenwardy i added a fix for the crash that is being tested. https://content.minetest.net/packages/erlehmann/crashtest/ |
| 20:17 |
erle |
rubenwardy i think this should meet 2.2 requirements. i will add crashes and fixes in tandem now. |
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| 20:38 |
sfan5 |
https://0x0.st/omOu.png the new vscode update really feels like they sprinkled random colors onto parenthesis |
| 20:38 |
sfan5 |
>blue >yellow >purple |
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| 20:44 |
Soni |
so the correct approach is to make a launcher that wraps minetest, runs a localhost server, tells minetest to connect to said localhost server, and so on? |
| 20:45 |
Soni |
can one make a "reverse proxy"-ish as a mod? |
| 20:46 |
Soni |
does minetest have open to "lan" functionality? |
| 20:56 |
erle |
Soni what exactly do you want to do? |
| 20:56 |
erle |
Soni if you state your vision of a goal, not your method, maybe it is easier to help. |
| 20:57 |
erle |
Soni i am asking this because you can already just ask minetest to start a server and connect to it. |
| 20:57 |
Soni |
erle: friend codes functionality |
| 20:58 |
Soni |
because minetest still lacks the ability to add functionality to the main menu |
| 20:58 |
Soni |
so "connect to friend code" would have to use an external launcher |
| 21:00 |
Soni |
"open to friend code" might be doable as a mod? |
| 21:01 |
erle |
Soni what exactly is a friend code? |
| 21:02 |
Soni |
erle: a code that does STUN/TURN as needed |
| 21:02 |
erle |
oof okay |
| 21:02 |
Soni |
well, it's a code for a system that does STUN/TURN as needed |
| 21:02 |
erle |
am i correct in that you want to host a server from a residential IP or so? |
| 21:03 |
Soni |
so you'd connect to [some base64 string] and it'd work |
| 21:03 |
erle |
oh that |
| 21:03 |
Soni |
erle: nah, host a remote lan party from a residential IP |
| 21:03 |
erle |
Soni you can use the command line option --address to connect? |
| 21:04 |
Soni |
"let's play minetest together" "yeah sure 1 sec" *start up friend code* *share friend code* *connect to friend code* no setup needed |
| 21:04 |
Soni |
(ideally integrated into the official release but uh. yeah.) |
| 21:04 |
erle |
i think you may want a URL handler or something like that |
| 21:05 |
erle |
the issue i see here is that you still need to give a name |
| 21:06 |
Soni |
erle: if teamviewer users aren't bothered by it, why should we? |
| 21:06 |
erle |
excuse me, what is teamviewer |
| 21:06 |
Soni |
multiplayer desktop |
| 21:06 |
erle |
oh, i remember |
| 21:06 |
erle |
it's some scam software, i heard linus tech tips talking about it |
| 21:07 |
erle |
remote desktop |
| 21:07 |
Soni |
basically what if RDP but multiplayer |
| 21:07 |
erle |
but if you pay, they call you and ask you for more money xD |
| 21:07 |
erle |
at least that's what LTT says |
| 21:07 |
erle |
Soni i did not know that it was used for gaming |
| 21:07 |
Soni |
it's not |
| 21:08 |
Soni |
at least not conventionally |
| 21:08 |
erle |
have you looked into wireguard? |
| 21:09 |
erle |
i think some people use it for a similar purpose |
| 21:09 |
Soni |
yes. and hamachi. and whatever. |
| 21:09 |
erle |
https://geekoverdose.wordpress.com/2020/04/18/play-lan-only-games-together-over-the-internet-with-wireguard/ |
| 21:09 |
Soni |
which part of no setup did we fail to make clear? |
| 21:10 |
erle |
Soni i suggest you open an issue on the issue tracker if there is not already one: https://github.com/Minetest/Minetest/issues |
| 21:11 |
Soni |
open an issue for what...? |
| 21:12 |
erle |
for the kind of thing you want, no-setup gaming |
| 21:12 |
erle |
you will get much more useful feedback, centralized at one point |
| 21:12 |
erle |
from people who know much more than me abuot this kind of thing |
| 21:12 |
rubenwardy |
you kinda want NAT punchthrough workarounds for this, to allow connections without port forwarding |
| 21:12 |
rubenwardy |
although not sure how resilliant those are |
| 21:13 |
rubenwardy |
MuC implements friend codes by starting up servers on demand in the cloud |
| 21:13 |
rubenwardy |
we don't make money from MT so wouldn't have the budget/justification for this |
| 21:14 |
erle |
does “just use ipv6” solve this issue? |
| 21:14 |
Soni |
why not just implement it and send it? |
| 21:14 |
Soni |
if it goes well, great! if not, lesson learned! |
| 21:15 |
erle |
i am no idea if NAT hole punching has to cost monies, but if it does, implementing it is not enough. |
| 21:15 |
erle |
someone has to run that infrastructure |
| 21:16 |
Soni |
(and what if we already have an almost ready solution? just needs some APIs which may or may not exist on the minetest side? like being able to plug into the menu...) |
| 21:17 |
erle |
do you have one? open an issue and a PR |
| 21:17 |
sfan5 |
rubenwardy: $15/month for 3 cloud servers (EU, US, AS) to handle proxying sounds in budget |
| 21:17 |
rubenwardy |
yeah proxying would be in budge |
| 21:18 |
rubenwardy |
running servers on demand not so much |
| 21:18 |
Soni |
$0/mo solution |
| 21:18 |
erle |
oh THOSE kind of servers |
| 21:18 |
Soni |
(aside from mantainer overhead) |
| 21:18 |
Soni |
maintainer* |
| 21:20 |
sfan5 |
nat hole punch is free but harder to implement and doesn't work everywhere |
| 21:20 |
sfan5 |
+ing |
| 21:22 |
rubenwardy |
how would the proxy system work? Would this be a system that proxies players to a server hosted on a player's computer |
| 21:23 |
sfan5 |
yes |
| 21:23 |
rubenwardy |
I suppose they'd both connect to the proxy, and then use it to exchange messages |
| 21:23 |
sfan5 |
assuming you're asking me |
| 21:23 |
rubenwardy |
yeah |
| 21:24 |
rubenwardy |
like, the server would need to connect to the proxy, and from there can be relayed messages |
| 21:24 |
MisterE[m] |
That would be cool |
| 21:24 |
MisterE[m] |
Being able to just jump into a game with a few freinds |
| 21:25 |
MisterE[m] |
Like, super cool |
| 21:26 |
erle |
is this only a NAT problem or something else too? |
| 21:27 |
rubenwardy |
there's two parts to this - making it user-friendly for a player to connect to another (=friend code), and allowing players to connect to another player without port forwarding (NAT) |
| 21:27 |
rubenwardy |
the server connecting to the proxy solves the NAT issue |
| 21:29 |
Soni |
there are whole (privacy-preserving) networks one can freeload instead of running one's own proxies |
| 21:48 |
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