Time Nick Message 06:38 celeron55 settl3r[m]: mostly i'm keeping the forum running, and answering the odd historical questions that pop up that nobody knows the answer for. well, also i'm managing changes in the core team. also when someone emails me with questions about minetest that aren't arrogant or stupid i try to answer those, often it's about the licenses 06:41 celeron55 also it seems i'm still trusted in things related to the trademark, i.e. the minetest name, which means stuff like deciding which things have official status and which don't 06:42 celeron55 but that's probably only because i try to be reasonable 06:42 celeron55 i guess it's not a bad thing 06:50 celeron55 it kind of means absolutely nothing in terms of what's happening day-to-day, but i do try to manage the big picture. i mean, looking after the project in such a way that it's set up right for the longest possible timescale, not just for the next release or so 07:03 celeron55 it's not because i especially like doing it, but it's because as i have had less time for MT, i have had to drop programming first as it takes so much time and almost anyone can program. on the other hand this doesn't take a lot of time and nobody else is going to do it. the fact that i don't have time for programming doesn't mean i can't do a few very important less time consuming tasks 07:05 celeron55 (yes, this is an overblown answer to settl3r[m]'s questionably thoughtful question, but i do think i should at least sometimes publish a description like this about my doings, so here it is this time) 07:10 celeron55 and as an example of my infinite scale-of-the-universe type widsom, my analysis of the recent developments is: the blog is nice, we needed the blog 07:17 MTDiscord even devtest looks good if palettified 07:17 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973846239525363742/screenshot_20220511_091647.png 07:17 MTDiscord noo not my beloved vomit dirt 07:19 MTDiscord NodeCore 07:19 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973846669928067132/screenshot_20220511_091841.png 07:21 sfan5 good is relative 07:22 erle explain palettified 07:23 MTDiscord erle: converts all textures to use zughy's palette iirc 07:23 MTDiscord not necessarily Zughy's, these screenshots use the Apollo palette 07:24 MTDiscord erle: Have some MCL screenshots 07:24 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973847986566201344/screenshot_20220511_092321.png 07:24 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973847986851418202/screenshot_20220511_092316.png 07:24 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973847987115667477/screenshot_20220511_092302.png 07:24 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973847987375722526/screenshot_20220511_092245.png 07:24 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973847987698671657/screenshot_20220511_092242.png 07:24 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973847987937738752/screenshot_20220511_092238.png 07:24 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973847988202008606/screenshot_20220511_092234.png 07:24 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973847988562706462/screenshot_20220511_092223.png 07:24 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973847989024096256/screenshot_20220511_092216.png 07:24 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973847989305081876/screenshot_20220511_092203.png 07:25 MTDiscord anyways, it's a media-generating-overriding mod which basically uses RGB dithering (which is somewhat incorrect, I'm aware) and a decent closest color func to convert all textures into textures using only colors of a certain palette 07:25 erle these colors are too satuarated 07:25 erle at least for the tree trunks 07:26 erle nah, also for other stuff 07:26 MTDiscord it's a very limited palette: https://lospec.com/palette-list/apollo 07:26 erle too saturated and too dark 07:26 erle try tango icon palette 07:27 MTDiscord can you send a PNG? 07:27 MTDiscord (of all colors of the palette) 07:27 MTDiscord because that's what my mod supports 07:28 erle i can, but that thing is in GIMP, you might be faster on your own 07:28 erle wait for it though 07:28 erle give me a few minutes 07:29 celeron55 for some minetest textures you might have to desaturate them a bit before applying a less saturated palette 07:30 erle luatic it's not a PNG, but this texturepack here has “over_colorpalette.tga” and i think it contains the palette! https://github.com/Li0nsDickachu/a_minetest_texturepack 07:30 erle oh there is also https://github.com/Li0nsDickachu/a_minetest_texturepack/blob/main/colorpalette.png 07:30 erle luatic can you try that? 07:31 erle i think “a_minetest_texturepack” should be on CDB. it is unique, in that it has both the smallest filesizes of any texture pack I have seen and all textures are 5×5 07:31 erle i'll try to convince the author 07:31 MTDiscord can't you put it on CDB yourself? 07:32 erle i can, but i will only put stuff on CDB if there is no chance the author will 07:32 erle https://github.com/Li0nsDickachu/a_minetest_texturepack/blob/main/Colorpalette2.png exists too 07:32 erle you can try that too 07:32 MTDiscord the first one looks like a white square to me? 07:32 erle which one? 07:33 MTDiscord https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Li0nsDickachu/a_minetest_texturepack/main/colorpalette.png 07:33 erle let me check 07:34 erle luatic it is a white square, but the picture contains the color palette. you can check that by opening it with a program like mtpaint 07:34 MTDiscord how does it contain the palette? 07:34 erle in the chunk? 07:34 erle wait do you know about palette chunks 07:35 erle i think you should? 07:35 MTDiscord I do 07:35 MTDiscord But you didn't make it clear that it was contained that way 07:35 erle luatic look here https://mister-muffin.de/p/kHKX.png 07:35 MTDiscord PNG allows hiding colors in transparent pixels too for instance 07:36 MTDiscord anyways here's some MTG with the second one 07:36 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973851059544006656/screenshot_20220511_093610.png 07:37 MTDiscord does mtpaint allow exporting it? my PNG reader only uses the PLTE chunk to determine image colors 07:37 erle luatic i believe that the creative process for paletted texture sets is as follows: 1. copy an empty picture with the color palette set to a new file. 2. edit it. 3. optionally, remove unused colors from the palette. 07:37 MTDiscord erle: can you make a screenshot of the palette? (not including the black border and the white numbers OFC) 07:37 erle in that case it makes a lot of sense to have the palette in the palette description in the file only and not as pixels 07:38 MTDiscord I see 07:38 erle also, I think yuo can not hide a palette properly in transparent pixels, as the palette entries might have transparenly too. 07:38 erle transparency 07:38 MTDiscord NVM I can crop it out too 07:38 erle ok! 07:38 erle i look at the screenshot now 07:38 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973851690275070022/Bildschirmfoto_von_2022-05-11_09-38-38.png 07:39 erle luatic you should try “a minetest texturepack” with mcl2 or so. it is quite unique in its way. i like the nether portal A LOT. 07:40 MTDiscord here's the first palette - doesn't really play well with the grass unfortunately 07:40 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973852132631535626/screenshot_20220511_094010.png 07:40 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973852132883181608/screenshot_20220511_094007.png 07:41 erle this does not look like dithering is happening 07:42 sfan5 are you sure your closest color function works in linear light 07:44 celeron55 offtopic note: it's almost unbelievable how much work people are putting into making mods game agnostic. mods staying tied to a (the) single game was one of the biggest risks in setting this path for the engine and community 07:45 erle the only reason i see for having mods to be tied to a game is if they are intimately tied to a single games mechanic 07:46 MTDiscord erle: yes, I have some bugs in there, just fixed em 07:46 MTDiscord but probably introduced new ones lol 07:46 MTDiscord fixed the green grass but now the other grass is scorched 07:46 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973853594719768576/screenshot_20220511_094539.png 07:46 celeron55 the other reason is them initially having been made for a single game and nobody having the time to remove the limitation, which was the risk 07:46 MTDiscord my alpha weighing is probably broken 07:47 celeron55 anyway, my point is, there looks to be enough momentum now to overcome this 07:47 erle luatic sounds a bit like the kind of problems i had when developing the A1R5G5B5 map writing function haha 07:48 erle i wonder hmmm 07:48 erle what if 07:48 MTDiscord graphical problems at least look interesting 07:48 erle dynamic texture changes 07:48 erle “interesting” 07:48 MTDiscord would be very fancy 07:48 celeron55 if i wasn't finnish i'd say this is super relieving and exiting, but i'll go with "nice" 07:50 erle celeron55 are you saying the stereotypes about finland are rooted in fact? :D 07:50 celeron55 they're not stereotypes, they're facts 07:51 erle “finns do not like the 2m social distancing rule, they would rather go back to the normal 5m distance” etc. 07:52 erle you know, i recently warned a friend to take a train earlier and i realized a german fun fact: no one expects the trains to run on time 07:52 erle i wonder if this is different in other countries, i almost expect it to be 07:52 celeron55 i don't know of any country where trains can be trusted to be on schedule, other than japan 07:53 erle oh right, but japan is legendary hor harassing train drivers and even docking their pay if they are late and so on 07:53 celeron55 well, that's what it takes 07:53 erle i read that it once lead to a horrible crash because someone was late and sped through a curve 07:53 erle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amagasaki_derailment 07:54 erle > 106 passengers, in addition to the driver, were killed and 562 others injured 07:54 erle so the train had a 90 second delay, so the driver went WAY too fast 07:54 celeron55 in finland trains are operated fairly well, but we have italian made trains, very strict safety systems and winters. those don't go well together 07:55 MTDiscord hmm the scorched tips could actually be correct dithering 07:55 erle > The speed limit on the segment of track where the derailment happened was 70 km/h (43 mph). The data recorder in the rear of the train (the rear cars were new and equipped with many extra devices) later showed that the train was moving at 116 km/h (72 mph) 07:55 erle celeron55 in italy, the trains run on thyme hehehehehe 07:57 erle celeron55 i think the best finnish fun fact i have read so far was about a NATO excercize in which a finnish unit won some kind of simulation against a USA unit and in the report, a finnish soldier was quoted as “when the temperatures dropped to 2 digits below zero, we knew, conditions were in our favor”. 07:57 erle exersize? how is this word written 07:57 erle i should get more awake 07:58 erle well, ig it was a „NATO and soon-to-be-NATO” thing 08:00 MTDiscord erle: “finns do not like the 2m social distancing rule, they would rather go back to the normal 5m distance” heh, neither do swedes :P 08:00 celeron55 southern swedes are basically italians, but i can respect the northern ones 08:01 erle i would like such a culture much more than the touchy-feelie one i am living in 08:01 erle one of the few upsides of the pandemic is that no one wants to randomly touch 08:01 erle so i don't need to be rude when i do not want to shake hands or hug strangers 08:02 erle i hope it stays that way 08:02 celeron55 the pandemic basically completely ended in finland, is it the same in the rest of europe? 08:02 celeron55 i mean, the masks and stuff 08:04 erle as far as i am aware, it depends on what you are measuring. if you measure “who is getting sick?”, nothing has ended. if you measure “how many deaths?” it seems to have been better since the advent of vaccines. however, many countries seem to have switched to “how much capacity does our health system have” to gauge how strict measures should be I think? 08:04 MTDiscord erle: I believe now it's correct 08:04 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973858150056861716/screenshot_20220511_100419.png 08:04 celeron55 nobody wears a mask or talks about vaccinations since... well, since russia's green men crossed the ukrainian border 08:04 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973858245603119114/screenshot_20220511_100450.png 08:05 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973858245884141598/screenshot_20220511_100447.png 08:05 erle hey, i'm getting my 2nd booster on friday! and i am wearing a mask every time i go outside. 08:05 erle celeron55 to be fair, russian aggression can kill far faster than covid. 08:05 MTDiscord celeron55: probably depends on the region, but indeed it isn't that much a topic anymore in Germany 08:05 MTDiscord of a topic* 08:06 celeron55 luatic: those screenshots look like there could be some pre-processing before applying the palette, to use the palette better 08:06 MTDiscord well, this is a small palette 08:06 erle luatic it looks nice, but have you tried adding some artificial noise? 08:06 MTDiscord (a 32 one, the zughy palette) 08:06 erle like, first palettize it, then noise it up 08:07 erle well, the pandemic is certainly a topic if you look at “should we go to the office” 08:07 celeron55 try increasing the brightness and decreasing the saturation before applying the palette 08:07 erle i am working in an all-remote team and our team events are not in-person 08:07 erle we only go to the office to meet everyone when we have to 08:07 celeron55 to make the source material match the palette better 08:07 erle which was like … once in 2 years so far? 08:07 celeron55 oh yes, remote work has stayed high 08:07 celeron55 that's something i do like 08:08 erle i hope that ALSO stays that way 08:08 celeron55 and which is also good for the environment and whatnot 08:08 erle remote work is so much more relaxing 08:08 erle also i don't need to get dressed :P 08:08 erle i worked remote before the pandemic 08:08 celeron55 i did too, it didn't really change anything for me 08:08 MTDiscord Hmm, the Floyd-Steinberg kernel works better than Jarvis-Judice-Ninke 08:08 celeron55 but that's not the common experience 08:09 erle celeron55 btw my best example for when mask mandates were abolished so far were denmark and the netherlands. i think they both did this “pandemic is over, everyone chill” thing and then had to backtrack? 08:09 erle in the netherlands i was even clocked as a german just by the fact that i was wearing a mask 08:10 MTDiscord did they have to backtrack though? 08:10 celeron55 well, obviously the pandemic is going to slowly decrease in severity, not instantly 08:11 * Andrew looks at the situation here in Shanghai 08:11 MTDiscord You're in Shanghai? 08:11 Andrew Yup 08:11 celeron55 i think what people should be and are looking for is when it's close to the yearly influenzas. that's the point where emergency measures aren't reasonable anymore 08:12 MTDiscord agreed 08:12 erle i think what people should look at is the deaths from 2 or 3 weeks ago. that long is how it takes to kill. 08:12 Andrew Today I had to go the the hospital, and we needed to pass six checkpoints, each of those have police asking for a travel permit 08:12 erle it will always be more accurate to look at that then the current positive test results 08:13 MTDiscord Andrew: must suck for you, I'm sorry 08:13 Andrew (Police here aren't armed 99.9% of the time) 08:13 Andrew It's kinda okay, but online classes suck- mandatory usage of nonfree software 08:13 erle Andrew that sounds like a very weird public health measure. 08:14 erle uh, police in germany are usually armed too … is armed police uncommon in other countries? or do you mean militarized police, like scary big weapons and so on? 08:14 MTDiscord like police are naked? 08:14 MTDiscord without guns 08:14 Andrew More like: You have an emergency situation? Okay, ambulances; You have a non-emergency situation? Wait until you get a negative COVID test and then come 08:14 erle police is usually armed and legged 08:14 MTDiscord yeah 08:15 MTDiscord bruh 08:15 Andrew Police here do not carry weapons but do carry handcuffs 08:15 Andrew They are not naked 08:15 Andrew ... 08:15 erle Andrew when i go to the doctor it also says on a sign “you have a cough? better stay out and call us”, but you don't need police checkpoints for that 08:15 MTDiscord bro which country are you 08:15 Andrew They wear large white COVID protection suits 08:15 Andrew (If you're asking me... Shanghai is in China) 08:16 erle well i bet it would be unfortunate if the people at the checkpoint catch covid 08:16 erle are they like spacesuits? 08:16 erle do you have a picture? 08:16 Andrew N o 08:16 Andrew lol 08:16 erle or like, can you describe it more 08:16 Andrew erle: No, but they're all around the Internet 08:16 erle like all i have seen is people wearing masks 08:16 erle ok i look 08:16 Andrew erle: I don't take cameras or phones outside usually 08:17 Andrew Well, my parents do, but... they don't take random pictures 08:17 * Andrew poofs 08:17 erle i see 08:17 erle i probably wouldn't too, if there were checkpoints everywhere 08:17 erle oh lol, i found the pictures 08:17 celeron55 it sounds like china is aiming to end the virus completely. well, if it succeeds, it ends up in high efficiency in society, but if it doesn't, then it was all for nothing 08:18 erle humans are good at eradicating things, living or non-living 08:18 paradust it could be extremely dangerous for them to try to prevent it from spreading completely 08:19 erle i mean, didn't some countries manage that for quite a while? 08:19 paradust successive waves of the virus are becoming more virulent but less lethal because people's immune systems have already adapted 08:19 erle like australia or new zealand too 08:19 erle someone coughs, close the city 08:20 erle (in germany: someone coughs and probably would still go to work if not most stuff was remote haha) 08:20 paradust it's like what happened to the Native Americans when the Europeans set down. small pox was devastating because they had no exposure to it before 08:21 paradust doubt China can prevent community transmission from the rest of the world forever 08:21 erle (most stuff that *can* be remote i know, obv you can't work at a bakery remote lol) 08:21 erle paradust yeah but vaccines exist 08:22 erle and i bet they only get better 08:22 erle along with other medication 08:22 erle for many people, each day that people do not get covid, they have a bit of a more chance to be better off once they get it 08:22 erle as society may be more advanced and more experienced in dealing with the illness 08:24 erle i mean, there are many illnesses which have been common in developed parts of the world just 50 or 100 years ago, but no longer are 08:29 erle about 2 years ago, i took an antibiotic … and it said on the usage/description paper in the package that it also helps against the plague (i think?) and i was like “oh so that is why this is rare nowadays … ?”. 08:39 erle celeron55 Andrew ROllerozxa btw, do you also have people in your countries who are very loudly antivax? at least in germany, this seems to go hand-in-hand with being either extreme left-wing or extreme right-wing and also anti-the-current-government and kinda-pro-russia, now i wonder if it is similar in other countries. 08:40 erle like if you get the full package lol 08:41 erle i mean, it is not uncommon for ideologies, that they have a bunch of talking points that go together. but this pattern, it just feels … random. to me. 08:42 erle or maybe it isn't a pattern and these people just cry the loudest about everything hehe 08:46 paradust in the U.S. at least, the prominent left-wing candidates came out against the vaccine, saying they wouldn't trust anything coming out of Trump's CDC. It switched completely after the election, although Trump himself has continued to promote the vaccine 08:46 paradust in 2020 08:47 erle btw, my personal theory is that while there exist “sheep” who always do what the majority thinks is good, there also exist ”anti-sheep” who always feel good about doing the exact opposite. 08:49 erle paradust that sounds extremely weird. it's not like trump could personally order pharma companies to make a shitty vaccine lol 08:50 paradust they relaxed a ton of rules/regulations. normally takes 5 to 10 years to produce a vaccine like that 08:50 erle yeah of course, but desperate times take desperate measures 08:50 erle like, think of going to the moon 08:50 erle or the manhattan project 08:51 erle paradust to paraphrase lenin: “sometimes decades happpen in which we fuck around and sometimes weeks happen in which we find out” 08:52 erle paradust the death toll of covid, for many countries, is like the death toll of being in a war 08:53 paradust the average age of covid death is 70+. not quite a war where primarily 18-24 year olds are dying 08:54 paradust however for non-covid reasons, Millenials in the US are dying at the fastest rates ever 08:54 paradust about an extra 50,000 a year due to deaths of despair. That is on pair with the entire US casualties from the Vietnam War 08:55 erle a bit less than a year ago, the number of covid deaths in the USA exceeded the number of american soldiers who died in world war II. obviously it is not a good comparison due to different cirumstances, but any just government would pour a lot of energy into preventing it from getting even worse. 08:55 erle so i am not surprised at the pace of vaccine development 09:07 MTDiscord I doubt that "zero COVID" strategies (like China's) are feasible considering the virulency of Omicron. 09:07 MTDiscord infectiosity* 09:08 MTDiscord erle: not much here in sweden from what I've seen or heard (my classmates and family have all gotten the vaccine, none are really opposed to it) but of course you can probably find it if you go actively looking for it on flashback or whatever 09:09 erle what's “flashback”? 09:24 MTDiscord oh it's a quite large swedish forum which comprises of a wide number of different topics and also generally has free speech so you'll probably be able to find some antivaxx people on there 09:33 MTDiscord "antivaxx" is an overused term; many who refuse the COVID vaccines in particular aren't opposed to vaccinations in general 09:34 MTDiscord The German language allows differentiating the two groups as "Impfgegner" ("antivaxxers") and "Impfskeptiker" (literal translation along the lines of "vax skepticists") 09:38 erle luatic, IMO that's mostly sugar-coating the issue. after all, you can also say “putin-freunde” (“putin friend”) or “putin-versteher” (“putin understander”), but effectively, both of them say the same things – the latter only try to stay “respectable”. 09:39 MTDiscord erle: Not at all. There's a large difference between skepticism and general (often poorly motivated) refusal. 09:40 erle luatic no one i know who has legitimate concerns wants to be called “impfskeptiker”. like, i can think of two people with autoimmune diseases that had bad vaccination reactions (the vaccination strengthens the immune system … the immune system fucks up everything), i doubt they would like to be called that. 09:40 MTDiscord There also is a massive difference between "friend" and "understander", but it seems likely that "understander" is misused in this context. 09:41 erle yeah, it is the misuse 09:41 erle the language allows the nuance, but media tries to be not too offensive 09:41 MTDiscord erle: Don't mix skepticists and those with contraindications up. 09:41 erle luatic i guess i dun goofed! 09:42 erle luatic isn't “the expected value of the vax might be negative, i need more information” the sceptic position? 09:43 erle i am pretty sure, *I* don't understand the nuance you are trying to convey here 09:44 MTDiscord the nuance is that the contraindications you call "legitimate concerns" are officially recognized 09:48 erle so that is why you wouldn't call it “sceptic” anymore? 09:48 MTDiscord yes 09:48 erle (since it is official policy to take it into account) 09:49 erle well, then what does “sceptic” mean here, except having a distrust of authorities? (which might be justified, obviously) 09:50 Andrew erle: No, we don't have many antivax people 09:51 MTDiscord We don't have many antivax people either (although we probably have more than in China). 09:54 Oblomov well, cuba seems to have gotten pretty close to zero-covid just with vaccination 09:55 Oblomov having a pediatric vaccine probably helped, kids and schools remain one of the main carrier factors when you keep them open and maskless 09:55 Oblomov has anybody made a covid mod for mtg? 8-D 10:02 MTDiscord there's also difference between 'general antivaxxer' and 'covid antivaxxer' ... I know of many people here who will gladly get many other vaccines but will refuse to get covid-19 vaccine .. shrugs 10:04 MTDiscord ^ 10:07 MTDiscord though we had like 82% of population fully vaccinated against covid-19 now, so everything is kinda relaxed 10:08 MTDiscord face mask is now only mandatory indoor like malls or shops where air circulation could be bad and packed areas like in public transport -- you can now go outside to touch grass or jog etc without wearing mask (previously it was mandatory) 10:09 MTDiscord but as someone who always wear face mask even before covid was a thing, I'll continue wearing face mask as usual lol 10:10 MTDiscord celeron55: re your influenza remark: that's supposedly why COVID is not the main point of concern anymore - see e.g. https://www.ft.com/content/e26c93a0-90e7-4dec-a796-3e25e94bc59b 10:10 MTDiscord lol paywalled article 10:11 MTDiscord is it paywalled though? I can read it just fine and I haven't paid a dime 10:11 MTDiscord this is odd, when referenced from Google search results it's not paywalled 10:12 MTDiscord @MNH48 try this one: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcontent%2Fe26c93a0-90e7-4dec-a796-3e25e94bc59b&usg=AOvVaw2vDXy7YjjR5Ey6CaQqJL3a 10:13 MTDiscord oh, that worked ... probably the google link is using some kind of "library referral" mechanism 10:13 MTDiscord like how if you have library membership you can read many articles for free via that library's online portal 10:13 MTDiscord or they just accept some tasty data as alternative payment method ¯_(ツ)_/¯ 10:14 MTDiscord (supposedly tasty data that is) 10:21 Andrew We have 90% vaccinated, but they're ineffective inactive-virus vaccines instead of mRNA ones due to concerns of DNS manipulation 10:21 Andrew *DNA 10:22 Andrew Which is possible, but occurs about one in a billion...) 10:38 settl3r[m] How is privacy handled in MT? Does it send UUID to servers? 10:44 erle luatic they want to be found in search engines, but not be linked lol 10:45 erle Andrew if science could do DNS manipulation well, i'd let the state vax me for better 5G reception hehe 10:45 erle DNA 10:46 erle settl3r[m] minetest accounts are not global. traffic is unencrypted. logins are protected by SRP. 10:46 erle settl3r[m] if you want an IFF system, i suggest to use a CSM and a cryptographic challenge 10:47 erle settl3r[m] waspsaliva contains a “frenemies” mod that can mark other users as friend or enemy and it contains a friend to friend encrypted chat feature, but it lacks the IFF challenge 10:47 sfan5 speedrun challenge: ask any question and wait for erle to mention CSMs and his favorite two cheat clients 10:47 erle settl3r[m] which has actuallly lead to someone tricking others by choosing a well-known username 10:48 erle sfan5 to my knowledge, CSM is the only way to do it, but you do not need a cheat client for it. 10:48 erle i may be wrong though, so is there some UUID feature? 10:49 erle i see waspsaliva primarily as a repository of weird CSMs 10:49 sfan5 I don't know what an "IFF system" is but I suspect who asked the question is not interested in that 10:50 MTDiscord sfan5: I believe Minetest should be encrypting some messages (chat in particular) because (1) latency & perf. doesn't matter as much for those and (2) they being trusted does matter (i.e. consider the //lua cmd which is locked behind the server priv). 10:52 erle sfan5 identification-friend-or-foe. the general term for systems where one actor interrogates another by means of a (most likely cryptographic) challenge and can positively identifiy friendlies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identification_friend_or_foe 10:54 erle luatic you can solve the integrity problem by means of a message authentication code (MAC) which should not be that big of a burden. 10:56 MTDiscord Minetest should just fully encrypt and authenticate all network traffic. It's just easier to pull in existing systems for this than to try to roll your own and have to make decisions about the sensitivity of each piece of traffic, and then have one flawed assumption bring it all down. 10:59 MTDiscord The only hard part is the trust model to use for servers (assuming we want to keep using passwords for clients). TOFU like SSH is arguably not as strong as PKI like TLS, but LetsEncrypt requires you to have at least a fixed hostname and a web server so TOFU would be more accessible... 11:07 erle TOFU is a good first thing though 11:09 MTDiscord Might work out just fine since we already have that registration screen; could just stick a server fingerprint on there too or something. 11:09 MTDiscord We'd have to store trusted keys though... 11:09 MTDiscord And then single users with multiple devices becomes a somewhat annoying workflow. 11:10 MTDiscord But I guess users will just blindly click trust anyway, so mostly the security will rely on them just not happening to get MITM'd the first time they use a particular device. As long as they use only a few devices and don't reset storage, that should be fine probably. 11:30 definitelya celeron, seriously, do not come to Italy. Highest taxation rates in EU, lowest employment of women in EU, and I'm just getting started... 11:31 definitelya Not even our government officials take their job seriously anymore. 11:40 erle definitelya hahaha i once randomly got a very old german book (“haarige eisen” – literally “hairy irons”, it is a nonsense-title) in which i found a comic that was set “in the far future, the year ¾ after berlusconi” 11:41 definitelya The man, the legend. :) 11:44 erle definitelya if a person is on wikipedia, the last sentence of the part before the table of contents is often interesting 11:44 erle for berlusconi, it ends with “[…] having vast conflicts of interest due to ownership of a media empire with which he has restricted freedom of information and finally, being blackmailed as leader because of his turbulent private life.” 11:45 definitelya Sums it up nicely, yeah. 11:46 MTDiscord does anybody know whether the halo rainbowing when it is fully opaque is intended? 11:46 definitelya Scumbag even served his sentence with forced public labor. 11:46 erle for putin it is “Putin's Russia has scored poorly on Transparency International's Corruption Perceptions Index, the Economist Intelligence Unit's Democracy Index, and Freedom House's Freedom in the World index. Putin is the second-longest currently serving European president after Alexander Lukashenko of Belarus.” 11:46 erle lol ima gonna look up merkel next haha 11:46 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/973914004823089232/halo.png 11:46 erle “… would not seek a fifth term as Chancellor in the 2021 federal election.” 11:47 erle yes i knew that lol 11:47 erle luatic i can't see shit what is this even, a halo for ANTS? 12:01 MTDiscord it's a #888 halo and it gets a rainbow animation by MT if I use it 12:01 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/888 -- Anaglyph: selection box isn't done in 3d 12:01 MTDiscord (888 is the color) 17:11 Parnikkapore_m Uh, so somehow the latest signs_lib crashes on certain occasions on my world. The last version doesn't crash in the same situation. 17:12 Parnikkapore_m I am using street_signs 17:14 sfan5 I think the crash log is of interest 17:18 * Parnikkapore_m sent a code block: https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/460c5ca22787a40b557630ce5031519f40b973c8 17:22 Parnikkapore_m sfan5: 17:23 sfan5 hmm yea I can't make out anything specific, you'll have more luck talking to the other of the respective mod 17:31 Parnikkapore_m It looks like on my computer some of the basic_signs signs are not in the `sign` group??? 17:39 Parnikkapore_m it is that way in the code. Writing a couple of messages in the repos now. 17:57 Soni does minetest support proxy? 17:59 sfan5 what kind of "proxy" 18:03 erle Soni there exist two proxies for minetest i know of. one is a server multiplexer by himbeerserverDE which can make several servers appear like a single one, if i am not mistaken. the other one is a rewriting proxy by anon5, which can be used to analyze and rewrite the traffic. it is mostly used to prevent the sending of item meta to the client to reduce lag when a client has a lot of items with big metadata (e.g. shulkers full of 18:03 erle shulkers). 18:04 erle Soni https://github.com/HimbeerserverDE/mt-multiserver-proxy https://github.com/OysterityAnarchy/mt-netopt-proxy are the two 18:05 erle Soni this is a go module you can use to make your own proxy https://github.com/anon55555/mt 18:06 rubenwardy Those are reverse proxies 18:07 erle yeah well, but like, what kind of other proxy do you imagine? 18:07 rubenwardy A forward proxy would be used on the client side to access the internet 18:07 erle oh 18:08 rubenwardy Minetest is a UDP application, you can use any software that works with UDP 18:08 erle you mean like SOCKS 18:13 jonadab Theoretically, a proxy can be on the client side, on the server side, or somewhere in between, and operates in essentially the same basic manner regardless. Though there are some configuration differences, e.g., a server-side proxy is typically set up to only proxy requests addressed to that one specific server. 18:14 jonadab (Otherwise it would be an "open proxy", which is frowned upon.) 18:15 rubenwardy Yeah, forward and reverse proxies are both types of proxies 18:38 Soni well, yes, both 18:38 Soni for reasons 19:04 erle rubenwardy can you tell me what “mod name does not match package name” means here? https://content.minetest.net/packages/erlehmann/crashtest/ 19:04 erle this is a modpack with one mod 19:10 erle rubenwardy wsor can i do anything to fix this? 19:10 erle oh sorry i should open a thread ig 19:11 erle done 19:23 ROllerozxa I assume it's because it expects a modpack to have a mod inside that matches the name of the mod, alongside other mods inside the modpack (i.e. worldedit is a modpack but one of the mods it contains is called 'worldedit') 19:23 ROllerozxa s/matches the name of the mod/matches the name of the modpack/g 19:34 erle i dun goofed thx 19:41 rubenwardy It's only because there's only one mod 19:41 rubenwardy also, that mod doesn't meet CDB requirements 19:41 rubenwardy under 2.2: state of completion, something designed to crash the engine isn't sufficiently useful to end users 19:42 erle rubenwardy it is 19:43 erle rubenwardy this is stuff i could never get into devtest 19:44 erle rubenwardy let me guess i need to ALSO add the fixes for this? 19:44 erle i can do that 19:45 erle rubenwardy hmm, no, i actually need a standalone thing that tries to crash the engine, because there are some bugs that have multiple fixes. 19:45 erle but i'll add more to it ig 20:06 erle appguru btw check this out for a loop that mysteriously disappears https://vector-of-bool.github.io/2022/05/11/char8-memset.html 20:17 erle rubenwardy i added a fix for the crash that is being tested. https://content.minetest.net/packages/erlehmann/crashtest/ 20:17 erle rubenwardy i think this should meet 2.2 requirements. i will add crashes and fixes in tandem now. 20:38 sfan5 https://0x0.st/omOu.png the new vscode update really feels like they sprinkled random colors onto parenthesis 20:38 sfan5 >blue >yellow >purple 20:44 Soni so the correct approach is to make a launcher that wraps minetest, runs a localhost server, tells minetest to connect to said localhost server, and so on? 20:45 Soni can one make a "reverse proxy"-ish as a mod? 20:46 Soni does minetest have open to "lan" functionality? 20:56 erle Soni what exactly do you want to do? 20:56 erle Soni if you state your vision of a goal, not your method, maybe it is easier to help. 20:57 erle Soni i am asking this because you can already just ask minetest to start a server and connect to it. 20:57 Soni erle: friend codes functionality 20:58 Soni because minetest still lacks the ability to add functionality to the main menu 20:58 Soni so "connect to friend code" would have to use an external launcher 21:00 Soni "open to friend code" might be doable as a mod? 21:01 erle Soni what exactly is a friend code? 21:02 Soni erle: a code that does STUN/TURN as needed 21:02 erle oof okay 21:02 Soni well, it's a code for a system that does STUN/TURN as needed 21:02 erle am i correct in that you want to host a server from a residential IP or so? 21:03 Soni so you'd connect to [some base64 string] and it'd work 21:03 erle oh that 21:03 Soni erle: nah, host a remote lan party from a residential IP 21:03 erle Soni you can use the command line option --address to connect? 21:04 Soni "let's play minetest together" "yeah sure 1 sec" *start up friend code* *share friend code* *connect to friend code* no setup needed 21:04 Soni (ideally integrated into the official release but uh. yeah.) 21:04 erle i think you may want a URL handler or something like that 21:05 erle the issue i see here is that you still need to give a name 21:06 Soni erle: if teamviewer users aren't bothered by it, why should we? 21:06 erle excuse me, what is teamviewer 21:06 Soni multiplayer desktop 21:06 erle oh, i remember 21:06 erle it's some scam software, i heard linus tech tips talking about it 21:07 erle remote desktop 21:07 Soni basically what if RDP but multiplayer 21:07 erle but if you pay, they call you and ask you for more money xD 21:07 erle at least that's what LTT says 21:07 erle Soni i did not know that it was used for gaming 21:07 Soni it's not 21:08 Soni at least not conventionally 21:08 erle have you looked into wireguard? 21:09 erle i think some people use it for a similar purpose 21:09 Soni yes. and hamachi. and whatever. 21:09 erle https://geekoverdose.wordpress.com/2020/04/18/play-lan-only-games-together-over-the-internet-with-wireguard/ 21:09 Soni which part of no setup did we fail to make clear? 21:10 erle Soni i suggest you open an issue on the issue tracker if there is not already one: https://github.com/Minetest/Minetest/issues 21:11 Soni open an issue for what...? 21:12 erle for the kind of thing you want, no-setup gaming 21:12 erle you will get much more useful feedback, centralized at one point 21:12 erle from people who know much more than me abuot this kind of thing 21:12 rubenwardy you kinda want NAT punchthrough workarounds for this, to allow connections without port forwarding 21:12 rubenwardy although not sure how resilliant those are 21:13 rubenwardy MuC implements friend codes by starting up servers on demand in the cloud 21:13 rubenwardy we don't make money from MT so wouldn't have the budget/justification for this 21:14 erle does “just use ipv6” solve this issue? 21:14 Soni why not just implement it and send it? 21:14 Soni if it goes well, great! if not, lesson learned! 21:15 erle i am no idea if NAT hole punching has to cost monies, but if it does, implementing it is not enough. 21:15 erle someone has to run that infrastructure 21:16 Soni (and what if we already have an almost ready solution? just needs some APIs which may or may not exist on the minetest side? like being able to plug into the menu...) 21:17 erle do you have one? open an issue and a PR 21:17 sfan5 rubenwardy: $15/month for 3 cloud servers (EU, US, AS) to handle proxying sounds in budget 21:17 rubenwardy yeah proxying would be in budge 21:18 rubenwardy running servers on demand not so much 21:18 Soni $0/mo solution 21:18 erle oh THOSE kind of servers 21:18 Soni (aside from mantainer overhead) 21:18 Soni maintainer* 21:20 sfan5 nat hole punch is free but harder to implement and doesn't work everywhere 21:20 sfan5 +ing 21:22 rubenwardy how would the proxy system work? Would this be a system that proxies players to a server hosted on a player's computer 21:23 sfan5 yes 21:23 rubenwardy I suppose they'd both connect to the proxy, and then use it to exchange messages 21:23 sfan5 assuming you're asking me 21:23 rubenwardy yeah 21:24 rubenwardy like, the server would need to connect to the proxy, and from there can be relayed messages 21:24 MisterE[m] That would be cool 21:24 MisterE[m] Being able to just jump into a game with a few freinds 21:25 MisterE[m] Like, super cool 21:26 erle is this only a NAT problem or something else too? 21:27 rubenwardy there's two parts to this - making it user-friendly for a player to connect to another (=friend code), and allowing players to connect to another player without port forwarding (NAT) 21:27 rubenwardy the server connecting to the proxy solves the NAT issue 21:29 Soni there are whole (privacy-preserving) networks one can freeload instead of running one's own proxies