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| 12:37 |
definitelya |
https://github.com/NVIDIA/open-gpu-kernel-modules |
| 12:37 |
definitelya |
Open-source Nvidia drivers go brrrr. |
| 12:38 |
definitelya |
Idk if that's the right repo, I'm too excited ahah. |
| 12:43 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> zamn |
| 12:44 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> it was a hell of a thing to wake up to, news about the nvidia drivers going open source |
| 12:45 |
definitelya |
It might have something to do with the recent massive hack that released most of the source code of their drivers. |
| 12:50 |
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| 13:01 |
Oblomov |
everybody is getting way too pumped about this |
| 13:02 |
Oblomov |
with mostof the functionality moved to venor-locked, signed firmware and still propietary userspace tools it's more of a mockery than a really meaningful piece of news |
| 13:06 |
definitelya |
Oblomov: One hack at a time, eheh. |
| 13:09 |
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| 13:24 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> definitelya: the lapsus hack? ehh I'm not confident that was exactly the case, nvidia has probably been planning this for a while |
| 13:25 |
definitelya |
I see, yeah I don't know much about it. |
| 13:40 |
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| 14:13 |
MTDiscord |
<exe_virus> Yeah they've been working on it for over a year |
| 14:18 |
sfan5 |
Oblomov: the real news is that this will allow nouveau to get power management / reclocking and that they're working on allowing Mesa to use the nvidia kernel driver in the long term |
| 14:18 |
Oblomov |
sfan5: OH MY GOD POWER MANAGEMENT IN NOUVEAU |
| 14:18 |
Oblomov |
it's still BS |
| 14:18 |
Oblomov |
honestly, don't get an nvidia card if you're on linux, period |
| 14:18 |
erle |
is this a gift from LAP$U$? |
| 14:19 |
Oblomov |
or use the propietary drivers |
| 14:19 |
erle |
nvidia drivers have wasted so much time |
| 14:19 |
Oblomov |
nouveau has been basically useless for three generations now |
| 14:19 |
erle |
intel integrated graphics forever :3 |
| 14:19 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> AMD iGPUs :) |
| 14:21 |
erle |
open source nvidia drivers, cats and dogs living together, what's next? a sauna in every NATO base? |
| 14:21 |
definitelya |
Oblomov: Certainly |
| 14:22 |
erle |
a guy once told me that the matrix movie is set in 1999 because that was the last good backup they could find hahaha |
| 14:22 |
Oblomov |
erle: lol |
| 14:22 |
sfan5 |
so is it a bad thing that nvidia will make nouveau work again or what is your point? |
| 14:23 |
erle |
isn't it that nvidia has a lot of user space stuff still to open source |
| 14:26 |
erle |
“the current codebase does not conform to the linux kernel design conventions and is not a candidate for linux upstream” |
| 14:26 |
erle |
t. nvidia |
| 14:28 |
erle |
ig if they upstreamed something AND released the userspace component of their driver solution, i'd be much more cheerful about it |
| 14:30 |
erle |
but i bet if they did that some assclowns would immediately modify it to mine more buttcoins :( |
| 14:30 |
erle |
i hate crypto bros |
| 14:32 |
Oblomov |
sfan5: my point is «too little, too late» |
| 14:40 |
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| 14:43 |
definitelya |
Oblomov: Like with Minetest or any other FOSS project, you can contribute to it yourself, if you find its features lackluster. |
| 14:44 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> definitelya: you literally can't |
| 14:44 |
Oblomov |
definitelya: yeah because I'm going to waste my time t contribute to a shitty company's bottom line for free |
| 14:44 |
definitelya |
Another way is to donate hardware to them I think, I'll do it when I switch PC. |
| 14:44 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> this requires technical expertise only NVIDIA workers will have |
| 14:44 |
definitelya |
luatic: I meant improving nouveau. |
| 14:45 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Still probably requires a lot of reverse engineering hardware if you don't work at NVIDIA |
| 14:46 |
Oblomov |
definitelya: nouveau is crippled by nvidia requiring signed firmware as a first issue |
| 14:46 |
Oblomov |
that simply cannot be solved without nvidia's support |
| 14:47 |
Oblomov |
really, we are at a point in time where there is absolutely no need to support shitty companies that don't play nice |
| 14:47 |
definitelya |
That's why sfan said, regarding mesa support, "in the long term". |
| 14:47 |
Oblomov |
amd has solved all these issues a decade ago |
| 14:48 |
Oblomov |
documenting their hardware, building their proprietary stack on top of the open source one and actually hiring developers to work on linux support |
| 14:48 |
Oblomov |
intel the same |
| 14:48 |
Oblomov |
tell me again why anyone should give a rat's ass about nvidia yet unless you're vendor-locked for cuda? |
| 14:49 |
Oblomov |
(in which case the floss driver is meaningless AGAIN) |
| 14:49 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> because people need way's to waste their money ;) |
| 14:49 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> ways* |
| 14:49 |
definitelya |
Not their fault, really. They all have a bottom line to reach. Regulations for this are always going to be falling behind, IMO. |
| 14:49 |
definitelya |
That's the issue. |
| 14:50 |
Oblomov |
regulation? |
| 14:50 |
erle |
“not their fault, it is slightly less profitable to be much less of an assclown” |
| 14:51 |
Oblomov |
well yeah when you've been ripping off your customers by making them pay 3x extra for stuff that is just a bitflip in your proprietary driver |
| 14:51 |
definitelya |
Oblomov: Yeah, security by obscurity is, for example, harmful to your and my freedom. |
| 14:51 |
definitelya |
But this is getting offtopic lol. |
| 14:51 |
Oblomov |
the point stands: nvidia's “open sourcing” is more of an “open washing” |
| 14:52 |
Oblomov |
«hey look we open source stuff too» |
| 14:52 |
erle |
which regulations exactly are saying you need to create shit drivers |
| 14:52 |
Oblomov |
linus-nvidia-fuck-you.gif |
| 14:52 |
definitelya |
It's still a win in my book. |
| 14:52 |
definitelya |
xD |
| 14:53 |
Oblomov |
“hey they stopped beating and raping me every day, now they only beat me every other day” is still a win too |
| 14:53 |
definitelya |
That was unnecessary but ok. |
| 14:53 |
Oblomov |
everybody is making a huge fuss for something that literally gives us nothing concrete now and should have been done a decade ago |
| 14:55 |
Oblomov |
definitelya: people are getting head of heels because nvidia is marginally less shitty, how is my metaphor inappropriate |
| 14:55 |
Oblomov |
when nvidia start playing nice with the rest of the floss ecosystem my attitude towards them will change |
| 14:55 |
definitelya |
No it's appropriate, it just came out a bit strong to me ahah. |
| 14:56 |
Oblomov |
it was intentionally strong, although I can see how it would be offensive for some |
| 14:56 |
Oblomov |
should have put a content warning in front |
| 14:56 |
definitelya |
ahah it's aight. |
| 15:00 |
ROllerozxa |
o.o |
| 15:01 |
definitelya |
s/came out/came off |
| 15:21 |
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| 15:30 |
* jonadab |
still misses Matrox graphics cards. |
| 15:33 |
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| 15:35 |
erle |
LIBGL_ALWAYS_SOFTWARE=1 forever |
| 15:36 |
erle |
Oblomov it was inappropriate because the bodily and emotional harm from bad graphics drivers is *probably* about zero |
| 15:39 |
Oblomov |
true |
| 16:03 |
jonadab |
You say that, but if a bad graphics driver crashes your X server, that takes all your GUI applications with it, which can result in dataloss if you weren't smart enough to do everything in terminal multiplexer sessions. |
| 16:18 |
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| 16:33 |
Oblomov |
jonadab: don't. buy. nvidia. |
| 16:34 |
jonadab |
I generally just use onboard video. |
| 16:34 |
jonadab |
Minetest is pretty much the most graphics-intensive game I play. |
| 16:34 |
jonadab |
*Most* of my gaming time, goes to games that run in a terminal. |
| 16:37 |
ROllerozxa |
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if dedicated GPUs actually run Minetest worse than integrated xD |
| 16:42 |
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| 16:55 |
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| 16:56 |
erle |
rubenwardy wsor rejected my package “crashtest” based on your comments about crashing not being useful, but it now contains a crash mitigation, i.e. if you install it your server does not crash from a thing that otherwise does crash it (invalid emerge). i plan to add any crashes with a suitable fix. is that allowed on cdb? |
| 16:57 |
erle |
rubenwardy basically, instead of “this is a package full of crashes”, i want to pivot to “this is a package full of crashfixes and their test cases” |
| 16:59 |
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| 17:13 |
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| 18:09 |
BuckarooBanzai |
sfan5: thank you for the latest prometheus PR, the new metrics are really useful now: https://monitoring.minetest.land/d/BRwIg8xMz/engine-metrics?orgId=1&var-instance=test.pandorabox.io:443 ;) |
| 18:18 |
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| 19:47 |
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| 19:47 |
sfan5 |
BuckarooBanzai: nice |
| 19:48 |
sfan5 |
did you figure out how to get meaningful numbers from the env step time? |
| 19:48 |
sfan5 |
I briefly tested rate(minetest_whatever_the_name_was)[1m]/1000 but the numbers didn't match what the step time should be |
| 19:52 |
sfan5 |
https://grafana.com/blog/2020/09/28/new-in-grafana-7.2-__rate_interval-for-prometheus-rate-queries-that-just-work/ btw |
| 19:52 |
sfan5 |
you don't seem to be using that |
| 20:23 |
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| 22:11 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> erle, continue the package approval threads. Also, @wsor |
| 22:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> What? |
| 22:27 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> This (irc, this is a reply to erle's post above |
| 22:34 |
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| 22:40 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> Yeah, I saw |
| 22:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> The core con ept of the mod doesn't fit concentdb. It's better off as a test mod for a issue |
| 22:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> *concept |
| 22:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> *contentdb |
| 22:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> I hate mobile |
| 22:46 |
MTDiscord |
<SX> conceptdb sounds fine too |
| 22:47 |
erle |
Jonathon the core concept is “prevent crashes” |
| 22:47 |
erle |
how is this a problem |
| 22:47 |
erle |
this is not a test mod for an issue |
| 22:47 |
erle |
in fact, installing this modpack is currently the ONLY way to prevent a server crash if a client triggers a malicious emerge |
| 22:48 |
erle |
am i punished for doing TDD here? |
| 22:49 |
rubenwardy |
TDD doesn't tend to include broken code in production |
| 22:49 |
erle |
but i changed the mod after you complained |
| 22:49 |
rubenwardy |
there's no dependencies between the two mods, running the crash in production is also weird |
| 22:50 |
erle |
there are no dependencies because otherwise you can not separately enable or disable them |
| 22:51 |
erle |
rubenwardy should the crash fix mod depend on the crash mod in your opinion? |
| 22:51 |
erle |
look, originally i wanted to make two modpacks. one that contains all the crashes, one that contains all the fixes. |
| 22:52 |
erle |
since i was told crashes are not acceptable as the sole content on cdb, i made one that contains the crash as a test case and contains the fix. i have a bunch of other fixes like that. |
| 22:53 |
erle |
as far as i see, this is the only easy way to deliver fixes for these crashes to ordinery users running minetest versions in which this stuff is not fixed (for this emerge hang, this is all released versions). |
| 22:54 |
erle |
rubenwardy should i add some minor playable content or a command so that cdb lets me distribute security patches for versions of minetest that are no longer supported? |
| 22:55 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> contentdb is not a bug reporting place |
| 22:55 |
erle |
oh but this is not for bug reports |
| 22:55 |
erle |
you misunderstand the purpose if you think that |
| 22:56 |
erle |
consider the following, you run minetest 5.5, some griefer crashes your server using a thing, you install this mod, it is safe. |
| 22:56 |
erle |
there are even more crashes in older versions that can be protected against using lua. |
| 22:57 |
rubenwardy |
There should be an otpional dependency between hang_emerge and hang_emerge_fix. However, hang_emerge isn't something that should be on CDB |
| 22:57 |
rubenwardy |
what about making one mod with a setting to change between crash and fix, default to fix? |
| 22:57 |
erle |
rubenwardy if hang_emerge is not on cdb, then how would a user of, say minetest 5.4.1 in debian figure out if debian has fixed it or not? |
| 22:59 |
erle |
“There should be an otpional dependency between hang_emerge and hang_emerge_fix” … okay, so you mean a mod should depend on its test cases. i can do that, so that hang_emerge_fix depends on hang_emerge. |
| 23:01 |
rubenwardy |
it would be the other way around, as you don't want Minetest to crash if both are loaded |
| 23:01 |
rubenwardy |
you want the fix applied first |
| 23:01 |
erle |
it can not crash if both are loaded, because emerging is not possible during mod loading stage and i use minetest.after(0, […]) here |
| 23:01 |
rubenwardy |
ah |
| 23:01 |
erle |
also the problem is, if hang_emerge depends on hang_emerge_fix then you CAN NOT test if your version of minetest is vulnerable |
| 23:02 |
erle |
my goal is to a) make it possible to install this thing and not worry b) toggle single mods to figure out if it is vulnerable |
| 23:03 |
erle |
and i don't get why i should add some hard-to-find setting if you can just toggle mods in modpacks. or add entirely superfluous dependencies that are in no way technically necessary for this to work. |
| 23:03 |
erle |
by default, all mods in a modpack are enabled, am i wrong? |
| 23:03 |
rubenwardy |
only if you enable the modpack |
| 23:03 |
erle |
technically correct, the best kind of correct ^^ |
| 23:04 |
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| 23:04 |
erle |
but yeah, given the fact that i want to collect *all* the crash fixes (e.g. stuff from mineclonia) so that the wider minetest community can benefit, what exactly needs to change now? |
| 23:04 |
erle |
maybe the description should emphasize that it fixes crashes |
| 23:04 |
erle |
instead of that it can cause crashes haha |
| 23:06 |
erle |
the thing is, because minetest coredevs are never ever going to make re-releases of old versions of minetest i see no other option to deal with stuff, given that e.g. linux distributions continue to ship old minetest for months or years. |
| 23:07 |
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