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IRC log for #minetest, 2021-12-25

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:05 yaman If that's the case, then using them as a way to count reviews will likely lead to inaccurate results, right? This is especially true when reviews are voted on inconsistently. Some games receive many review votes while others receive nearly none. At the very least, we can use the total review count. Those who believe that a review shouldn't be counted (by helpful/unhelpful rating) are free to leave a review of their own.
00:07 MTDiscord <j45> Tbh the voting rampages like Zughy's one is just ruining the whole thing
00:08 MTDiscord <j45> It is getting to a point where community votes are kinda useless
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00:11 yaman I appreciate the reviews from the community, as long as they are thoughtful. On the other hand, invalidating reviews because a few others disagree with no stated reasons is unhelpful. If others disagree, they should post their own review explaining their point of view, which would also be factored into the community score.
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00:44 MTDiscord <MisterE> These are all valid points. Id say that they should factor heavily into how we do the next jam. This jam, I think we should not change the rules after the fact, but we should learn from the problems with this system and adjust it next time
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00:46 MTDiscord <Warr1024> We wanted to give the community a voice but to some extent we can't make it use that voice responsibly.  There may be some dishonest actors but we haven't seen a full-blown attack against CDB or anything, so it would be manageable if more honest people simply put in the effort to rate games and give feedback.
00:47 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Trying to game CDB is really just mutually assured destruction anyway, and since the winner will be determined by their score relative to others, it may not make much of a difference in the rankings in the end.
00:48 MisterE testing the irc client on minetest
00:48 MTDiscord <MisterE> huh it displays my icon and posts as me. That is mildly concerning
00:49 MTDiscord <Jonathon> yes, wrong
00:49 MTDiscord <MisterE> ...
00:49 MTDiscord <Jonathon> it doesnt post as you
00:49 MTDiscord <MisterE> ok, but is shows my icon
00:50 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The Discord webhook thing guesses your icon based on IRC name matching with Discord name.
00:50 MTDiscord <MisterE> someone else could join as mistere on irc and seem to be me
00:50 MTDiscord <MisterE> yeah only mildly concering ll
00:50 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Well that's what kickname registrations are for ;-)
00:50 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ^
00:50 MTDiscord <Warr1024> nickname registrations (but also kickname, if you set ENFORCE on)
00:51 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If it really bugs you but you don't plan on using IRC much, you only really need to log in once a month or three to make sure your registration doesn't expire.
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00:51 MTDiscord <MisterE> it doesnt bother me
00:51 wsor test
00:52 wsor figures nicks out
00:52 wsor4035 probably not this
00:52 MisterE ah yeah
00:52 wsor4035 matrix sucks as usual
00:54 MTDiscord <MisterE> Is there any reason that we can't set up our own irc server, and then run the bot to connect every minetest discord channel to a mirrored irc channel, and do the same for element with its minetest space and rooms? Thus bringing the community closer together. I have a bit of experience running irc servers
00:55 MTDiscord <MisterE> or do people on libera want to have minetest as just a few channels, next to a bunch of other channels that they frequesnt
00:55 MTDiscord <Jonathon> everyone lets relay discord to "better" places, but they dont want to relay there own spaces
00:55 MTDiscord <Jonathon> coughs in matrix
00:56 MTDiscord <MisterE> ?
00:56 MTDiscord <Jonathon> matrix has its own dedicated minetest channel not relayed anywhere
00:56 MTDiscord <Warr1024> We are ultimately not going to be able to bridge every corner of each platform onto every other platform because users don't necessarily want to interact with the entire community all the time.
00:56 MTDiscord <MisterE> I mean, migrate all platforms to shared channels that are all relayed
00:57 MTDiscord <MisterE> ofc, but that can be handled in pms
00:57 MTDiscord <Jonathon> let me clue you in, matrix relay solutions sucks, majorly
00:57 MTDiscord <MisterE> ah neer messed with the relay parts yet other than minetest to irc
00:57 MTDiscord <MisterE> *never
00:57 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Every relay I've touched with is pretty janky, and they get jankier under non-trivial trafific.
00:58 MTDiscord <MisterE> yet I know people who have gotten irc to matrix solutions working
00:58 MTDiscord <Jonathon> messages out of order, never showing up, very slow
00:58 MTDiscord <MisterE> yes thats a problem
00:58 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Very easy to get Matrix/IRC bridge working, but kinda hard to keep it working.
00:58 MTDiscord <MisterE> hehe
00:58 MTDiscord <Jonathon> or get it working well
00:58 MTDiscord <MisterE> this discord relay to irc is fairly instant
00:59 MTDiscord <Jonathon> yes, but irc <> matrix or discord <> matrix is shit
00:59 MTDiscord <MisterE> maybe the solution is to write a better more userfreindly irc client
00:59 MTDiscord <MisterE> with the modern features implemented over top
00:59 MTDiscord <MisterE> then get the matrix ppl to move back to irc
00:59 MTDiscord <Warr1024> TheLounge
00:59 MTDiscord <MisterE> then bridge to discord
01:00 MTDiscord <MisterE> theLounge?
01:00 MTDiscord <MisterE> looking up now
01:00 MTDiscord <Jonathon> good luck, people use what they want to use
01:00 MTDiscord <MisterE> eh its a web irc client
01:00 MTDiscord <MisterE> I think people would much rather use a native app
01:00 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It's the best IRC client in terms of Discord-like feature parity.
01:01 MTDiscord <Warr1024> you must be on iOS :-D
01:01 MTDiscord <MisterE> nah, win11, and linux
01:01 MTDiscord <MisterE> and android
01:01 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Okay, well that's kind of ironic because those are the platforms where TheLounge actually offers a pretty native-like experience, especially on Android.
01:01 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ^this
01:02 MTDiscord <MisterE> well its just that its a web app...
01:02 MTDiscord <Jonathon> discord essentially is a web app with a little bit more fancyness
01:02 MTDiscord <MisterE> true
01:02 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It's a PWA and android's PWA support is so good it actually packages up a dynamically-generated APK to offer an experience that's frankly kind of hard to distinguish from native unless you know where to look.
01:03 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Don't knock it until you've tried it.
01:03 MTDiscord <Jonathon> also we accept that is a relayed area, so feature parity is not equal, relaying everything is going to be annoying tbh
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01:21 Wuzzy JT2 will soon reach year 200!
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01:31 MTDiscord <MisterE> article: Looking Back Across Two Centuries of Minetest History
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13:35 debiankaios is a admin there?
13:35 debiankaios i changed my mail from forum
13:35 debiankaios and i don't get a activation-mail
13:36 debiankaios i presed 3 time resend activation mail now
13:36 debiankaios there stand ishould contact a board administrator
13:42 debiankaios if an admin come here please ping me
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15:46 MTDiscord <j45> erlehmann, are you there?
15:48 MTDiscord <j45> I made a new repo for my chat logger thing cuz i realised the bot in the private repo had a few other things. I hope it works as i cant really test from my phone but here it is: https://github.com/Minetest-j45/mt_chat_logger
15:48 MTDiscord <luatic> This is unreadable
15:48 MTDiscord <luatic> Why do you spam linebreaks?
15:48 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> jesus that's quite the line breaks
15:49 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> line ending issues?
15:49 MTDiscord <j45> Cuz i did this phone my phone and my editor is bad
15:49 MTDiscord <luatic> I should've warned you when you proposed this idea already.
15:49 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> you can do a find and replace finding all \n\n and replacing it with just \n
15:49 MTDiscord <luatic> This can trivially be abused to sniff unencrypted Minetest traffic
15:50 MTDiscord <j45> What can be abused?
15:50 MTDiscord <luatic> You should've depended on the proxy IMO BTW
15:50 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> sniff sniff smells like someone's mining mese
15:51 MTDiscord <luatic> j45: since this operates at network layer, it can be abused in a MITM-ish attack
15:51 MTDiscord <j45> Well anyone could make a bot like this
15:51 MTDiscord <luatic> arguably you're just facilitating it for script kiddies
15:51 MTDiscord <luatic> MT really needs to start encrypting it's traffic
15:51 MTDiscord <j45> Most of the code is from himbeer's proxy
15:51 MTDiscord <luatic> The SRP auth is safe
15:52 MTDiscord <luatic> Anything else - including potentially sensitive chat messages - unfortunately is not
15:52 MTDiscord <luatic> I remember raising this a while ago on the forums
15:52 MTDiscord <luatic> IIRC the response was something along the lines of "just don't send your bank details in chat"
15:52 MTDiscord <j45> Lol
15:53 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> awesome. so what if someone is in an oppressive country?
15:53 MTDiscord <luatic> Keep the juicy stuff off MT then
15:53 MTDiscord <luatic> It is a tradeoff to be made. Not encrypting stuff might be marginally faster. But especially for stuff like chat messages, encryption would be preferrable.
15:53 erlehmann j45 i am there
15:54 MTDiscord <j45> Hey
15:54 erlehmann naisu
15:54 MTDiscord <luatic> Especially considering powerful commands like WE's //lua: Given an insecure environment, a MITM attacker could use this to enter a privileged user <-> server connection, eventually gaining server control
15:54 erlehmann j45 next step: fuzzing the network protocol.
15:55 MTDiscord <j45> 👀
15:55 MTDiscord <luatic> I toyed with the idea of allowing server management through Minetest, but came to the conclusion that particularly powerful stuff like a file manager or terminal access simply shouldn't be implemented through Minetest as it's way too insecure.
15:56 MTDiscord <j45> Why fuzz it tho?
15:57 erlehmann to make it less buggy
15:58 MTDiscord <j45> All i wanted was a bot to log chat messages to a file, i dont really want to do any dodgy stuff
15:59 erlehmann well i want to
15:59 MTDiscord <j45> Lol
15:59 erlehmann because there are assholes out there who will do it first
15:59 MTDiscord <j45> Feel free
15:59 erlehmann so better someone does it before some clown starts crashing servers
16:00 MTDiscord <j45> True
16:00 erlehmann recently kay27 did a commit to kick players that suffocate others
16:00 erlehmann bc mr_anderson did that
16:00 erlehmann build a block in some other players head who is afk
16:00 erlehmann and then leave
16:00 erlehmann i.e. not even being online when the other player dies
16:00 erlehmann i mean a node
16:00 erlehmann not a block
16:00 erlehmann ^^
16:00 MTDiscord <j45> Yea
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16:05 erlehmann j45 in general i am in favor of doing all the shit that the griefers do before they figure it out and then patching it
16:05 erlehmann griefers in general are stupid adversaries, mostly because of their goal. they immediately use their knowledge to fuck shit up.
16:08 erlehmann luatic the waspsaliva client actually contains encrypted chat https://repo.or.cz/waspsaliva.git/blob/HEAD:/clientmods/wisp/init.lua
16:08 erlehmann > a clientmod for minetest that lets people send 1 on 1 encrypted messages
16:11 erlehmann i guess people who think default end to end encrypted chat is about their bank details did not think about it much
16:12 erlehmann > It is a tradeoff to be made. Not encrypting stuff might be marginally faster.
16:14 erlehmann computers are fast. i am posting from a thinkpad t60. it can handle encryption very well. the real performance bottlenecks you have nowadays is stuff like discord or element matrix client, both are super laggy on computers that run minetest just fine.
16:17 erlehmann j45 i have a question, do you have some knowledge to improve the minetest wireshark dissector maybe?
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16:24 MTDiscord <j45> Nope
16:25 MTDiscord <j45> Himbeer would but he has been very busy for a while
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16:32 MTDiscord <j45> If you want to see the api for sending/receiving packets, see https://pkg.go.dev/github.com/anon55555/mt
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16:51 erlehmann j45 himbeer who made the multiserver?
16:53 MTDiscord <j45> Yes
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19:33 definitelya Did anyone else experience deprecation warnings that cause a crash on Berzerkpt game? I can't even start it on Linux in 5.4.1.
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19:52 sfan5 worked for me on 5.5
19:52 sfan5 when I tested it a few days ago
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19:54 definitelya ok, I'll try figure it out.
20:03 Krock warnings that cause a crash?
20:03 Krock it would be an error in this case.
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20:43 definitelya https://github.com/FreeLANMan/Berzerkpt/issues/1
20:44 definitelya Sorry, I'm AFK.
20:44 Krock https://github.com/3scale/lua-resty-url/issues/11
20:45 Krock probably caused by Lua 5.1.5
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21:26 Fixer Merry Christmas!
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22:36 definitelya I should specify it in CMAKE flags I'm guessing; anyways, thanks for the help.
22:37 Krock either fix the code or use another Lua version
22:37 definitelya ok
22:37 Krock at least according to that issue, that seems to be the culprit
22:46 MTDiscord <luatic> Krock: Neither Lua 5.1 nor LuaJIT support nested long string notation
22:46 MTDiscord <luatic> definitelya: Delete the outcommented code as I have said on GH
22:47 MTDiscord <luatic> This seems to be an interesting case though
22:47 MTDiscord <luatic> 1. These are comments; 2. Lua 5.1 parses it differently - it isn't really nested
22:48 MTDiscord <luatic> definitelya: Switching to LuaJIT will in fact mysteriously fix the issue too
22:50 MTDiscord <luatic> Alright, the following is the case from what I can see: The comments contain long comment openers. LuaJIT starts at the first opener and treats everything as comment until the first long comment closer. Lua 5.1 errors as soon as it encounters another opener within the long comment.
22:56 definitelya Interesting, well I'm off to sleep. ^^
22:56 definitelya Merry Christmas btw!
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23:34 erlehmann i have the same problem, what is the solution? https://github.com/FreeLANMan/Berzerkpt/issues/1
23:34 erlehmann luatic how did this ever run?
23:35 erlehmann i mean what is the solution that is not “delete the commented out code”
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