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IRC log for #minetest, 2021-03-22

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:06 DS-minetest nevermind, I've found it. what I was searching for was the camera offset
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00:30 absurb will minetest ever have an auto-updater?
00:32 VanessaE that's your OS's job
00:32 VanessaE applications should not have their own updaters.
00:33 DS-minetest +
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01:52 absurb sure, but windows doesn't have one and microsoft ain't gonna add it any time soon
01:53 absurb relying on microsoft to do this is foolish
01:53 VanessaE get a better OS.
01:54 TommyTreasure batch files on a schedule should work fine
01:55 absurb i admire your integrity and your strong activist stances, like an ant pushing a tricycle, but let's be practical here
01:55 VanessaE ...
01:55 absurb unless minetest gets put on steam, it's going to be a black sheep among other applications which do have autoupdaters
01:55 VanessaE so who's gonna pay for it?
01:55 TommyTreasure write a batch file to do the upgrading for you
01:55 VanessaE and for it to get on the apple store properly?
01:56 VanessaE and all the other places people want, where it costs money?
01:56 VanessaE (I assume it costs on steam)
01:57 absurb i have no idea how it works on steam anymore, after the greenlight system went kaput and steam became a free-for-all for developers
01:57 TommyTreasure btw, what part of minetest are you wanting to have upgraded automatically
01:57 VanessaE like I said, it's the OS's job to update applications.  for an application to be able to do so itself implies that it must occasionally get root/admin level access
01:58 TommyTreasure if i recall, the main game engine is only released 2 times a year in the stable version
01:58 VanessaE (on a properly-functioning OS anyway)
01:58 VanessaE TommyTreasure: close to that yeah
01:58 TommyTreasure so what's the issue?  doesn't seem to make sense
01:59 TommyTreasure mods are the equiv to other games' 3rd party plugins,
01:59 TommyTreasure and some you many not want to auto upgrade without verifying they work properly
02:00 TommyTreasure either way, some sort of batch file or script will do the upgrade for you
02:00 VanessaE I just run a script when I want to update all my mods, which reaches out to github/gitlab/etc, and that script is quite simple.
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02:01 TommyTreasure there are some mods you need to be careful with upgrades, especially when they merge or push a branch into master, and you don't follow through with your research
02:01 VanessaE yep
02:01 absurb i like that, keeping lua mods updated automatically
02:02 absurb that's something an OS will never do for you
02:02 MTDiscord <Jonathon> you can update via cdb
02:02 MTDiscord <Jonathon> if you really dont like git
02:02 TommyTreasure i hate to say this, but there's one mod that has changed its master branch just this week.  if you auto-upgrade that one, you now have a very broken mod
02:02 VanessaE absurb: fail.  I could just tie that script to crontab and have it run daily, weekly...  hell, every 17 minutes if I wanted.
02:03 TommyTreasure lol, full game backup every 15 minutes
02:03 absurb you and i are programmers, most people toying with minetest aren't going to have the expertise for this
02:03 TommyTreasure i'm not a programmer
02:04 VanessaE I'm a programmer but it doesn't take a programmer to write a script like I use.
02:04 TommyTreasure dos batch file programming is very hard to learn, and neither are the basic bash commands for linux scripts
02:04 TommyTreasure isn't*
02:04 absurb heh, i admire your faith in humanity
02:04 TommyTreasure fat finger  <<<<<
02:04 VanessaE and it would be trivial for the minetest devs to include it with the engine if they wanted.
02:05 MTDiscord <Jonathon> update via cdb for people who dont have a brain is my suggestion
02:05 VanessaE John: right
02:05 TommyTreasure cdb isn't automated, as they're looking to do
02:05 absurb heh
02:06 * VanessaE sighd
02:06 * VanessaE sighs
02:06 TommyTreasure from my old fidonet/bbs days -- the most lazy sysop has the largest autoexec.bat file
02:06 VanessaE haha
02:06 absurb holy shit lmao
02:06 absurb some people, i swear to god
02:06 VanessaE TommyTreasure: or the largest collection of scripts :)
02:07 TommyTreasure i ran a multinode bbs, with a binkleyterm mailer front end, using a lantastic network, and all nodes booted and ran from floppy
02:07 MTDiscord <Jonathon> i mean, its not auto update, but its pressing a button
02:07 VanessaE exactly.
02:07 TommyTreasure took time to write the batch files, but it ran for years
02:08 VanessaE absurb: in any case if you think it's so important, go file an issue on github.
02:08 VanessaE maybe the devs will agree.
02:09 VanessaE (but I doubt it
02:09 VanessaE )
02:09 absurb honestly i'm too lazy, it's such a minor detail
02:09 TommyTreasure as for minetest moving to steam, i doubt that very much.  that's not a very good move for a game that steam can't make money for access
02:09 absurb if nobody else has cared, i certainly won't
02:09 VanessaE well then don't complain here about it.
02:09 absurb i'm not complaining
02:09 VanessaE either help or gtfo.
02:09 MTDiscord <Jonathon> honestly tho, someone should shove the concept of not outdate as heck software down linux package maintainers throats
02:09 absurb i was asking if there were existing plans for it
02:09 VanessaE (and yes, filing issues, done properly, is helping)_
02:10 VanessaE [03-21 21:55] <absurb> i admire your integrity and your strong activist stances, like an ant pushing a tricycle, but let's be practical here
02:10 VanessaE [03-21 21:55] <absurb> unless minetest gets put on steam, it's going to be a black sheep among other applications which do have autoupdaters
02:10 VanessaE yeah, nop.
02:10 VanessaE this ^ is not "asking"
02:10 MTDiscord <Jonathon> there was talk in a github issue for windows updates if i recall correctly, but not linux because package maintainers would scream
02:10 absurb i WAS asking
02:10 VanessaE besides, Windows has a software store don't they?
02:10 MTDiscord <Jonathon> its a joke lol
02:10 absurb lol
02:10 VanessaE doesn't it*
02:10 absurb windows store is awful
02:11 MTDiscord <Jonathon> some fool is selling 5.2 on it no less
02:11 absurb never ever use it ever
02:11 VanessaE some of us just run a decent OS :)
02:11 VanessaE (Debian ftw)
02:11 absurb sure
02:11 MTDiscord <Jonathon> the most outdated one ever
02:12 absurb anyway, bots is my hot issue i want to push for
02:12 VanessaE John:  nah, not if you run the testing branch
02:12 VanessaE that's about as up-to-date as any other distro while being pretty stable.
02:12 MTDiscord <Jonathon> hmm
02:13 TommyTreasure i'll stick with my palm pilot
02:13 VanessaE heh
02:13 absurb excuse me why hasn't minetest been compiled for TempleOS? y'all are real slackers
02:13 MTDiscord <Jonathon> :thonking:
02:13 VanessaE wtf is TempleOS?
02:14 absurb damn
02:14 MTDiscord <Jonathon> a meme more or less
02:14 absurb yeah, it's a meme OS created by a schizophrenic man
02:14 VanessaE heh
02:14 MTDiscord <Jonathon> i mean, its pretty impressive what he did do from scratch ish
02:17 absurb kinda. it took him 10 years to essentially create something on-par with the C64's "Kernal" on x86
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02:20 absurb i'm literally shaking rn i can't believe minetest is not on gaystation and xcocks noooooooooooo
02:20 VanessaE wtf
02:21 MTDiscord <Jonathon> :NowHwhatTheHeck:
02:21 MTDiscord <Jonathon> seems just ment to provoke tbh
02:21 TommyTreasure well, that kills my interest here for the day.  g'nite all
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02:21 VanessaE night Tom.
02:21 absurb shitposting aside, i recall there was discussion on how to properly implement mobs in the engine, or some kind of API for it
02:21 MTDiscord <Jonathon> looks at mobkit
02:22 absurb mobkit is hot ngl
02:22 VanessaE or TenPlus1's mobs
02:22 MTDiscord <Jonathon> no, just no
02:23 VanessaE what?  mobs_redo works pretty well I thought.
02:23 VanessaE my players seem to like it
02:23 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Your players also dont care about massive load times and shoddy performance
02:23 VanessaE hey now
02:23 MTDiscord <Jonathon> limiting and overhead you dont need
02:23 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> mobs_redo = lag
02:23 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> its a simple equation
02:24 MTDiscord <Jonathon> lol
02:24 VanessaE how is mobkit any better tho?
02:24 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> It isnt, really
02:24 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> It is also a mess
02:24 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> People that praise it like the best replacement ever just want something different
02:24 MTDiscord <Jonathon> it does give you way more control
02:24 MTDiscord <Jonathon> and less overhead
02:24 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Sure, it has upsides
02:24 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> But it also has downsides glances at code
02:25 MTDiscord <Jonathon> also, is there a mod you dont have something to complain about?
02:25 VanessaE heh
02:25 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Sure. Bakedclay.
02:25 VanessaE he'd complain about ilights too :)
02:25 MTDiscord <Jonathon> *non simple mod?
02:26 absurb i suppose a large contention about mobs is in how it would be implemented into the base game if it were implemented in any official capacity
02:26 VanessaE it never will be
02:26 absurb yeah
02:26 VanessaE because "the base game" is frozen
02:26 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> How do you define non-simple, wsor?
02:26 MTDiscord <Jonathon> more than registering basic nodes
02:26 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> WorldEdit is pretty solid
02:26 VanessaE engine devs want people to play other MT-related games, not just mtg
02:27 MTDiscord <Jonathon> hmm, yeah
02:27 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Ethereal is absurd in a lot of places but functionally reasonable
02:27 VanessaE (which is to say they don't like that minetest_gam is considered the "base game".
02:27 MTDiscord <Jonathon> tho it has stagnated in terms of new commands
02:27 absurb shit, when i say "base game" i meant the engine
02:27 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Villages is alright too
02:27 absurb i kinda didn't want to imply the C++ part of the engine, though
02:27 MTDiscord <Jonathon> nothing is perfect 🤷‍♂️
02:28 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> People should use the term "builtin" more often ;p
02:28 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ^
02:28 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> builtin is the Lua part of the engine
02:28 VanessaE absurb: it would take both.  the engine would need changes, and games would need to supply the content i.e. that actual models/textures/behavior
02:28 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> >engine change
02:28 absurb of course
02:28 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> doubt
02:28 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Oh, also Air Sword is obviously the most perfect mod in the world.
02:28 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Literally no flaws
02:29 absurb what games do with mobs isn't particularly important for now
02:29 MTDiscord <Jonathon> its the most efficient mod for minetest ever
02:29 VanessaE Green: I mean for what he wants, which is obviously motion/paths and AI as part of the engine, and general behavior, look, etc being part of the game
02:29 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> > i kinda didn't want to imply the C++ part of the engine, though
02:29 VanessaE no, but that's still what it would take
02:29 absurb yeah
02:29 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Why?
02:29 VanessaE otherwise if it's all Lua it may as well continue to be a mod.
02:30 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Well of course
02:30 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> builtin is basically mods
02:30 VanessaE which means it has no point in being part of the engine package.
02:30 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Correct
02:31 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> The only thing the engine needs is better default pathfinding. I mean you can make super fast Lua pathfinding, but it would still be even better if the engine did it right
02:31 VanessaE *nod*
02:31 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Entities already have the capacity to be amazing mobs, people are just bad at using them
02:31 absurb personally i don't think the engine would need many changes, except improvements to the pathfinding algorithm. mod makers have shown they can already build the whole API in lua
02:32 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Also no mob implementation has utilized an Entity Component System, which would seriously boost performance
02:34 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> (re perfect mods: Digilines is pretty good, ignoring the fact that it uses Mesecon style wiring. Hoppers also work just fine.)
02:34 absurb building it into the engine would definitely allow for performance boosts which mods and games can't accomplish alone
02:34 absurb the reason i think adding something like this would be worthwhile is because it would be utilized the same way, for example, privileges are
02:35 absurb a centralized way which would let mods work with each other and not clash
02:35 absurb mobs using two entirely separate systems would have completely unknown interactions, if at all
02:35 absurb if any at all*
02:36 absurb i hope i speak for everyone when i say mob infighting is fun to watch and even more fun to instigate
02:37 absurb but, like i said, i think there would be too much disagreement on how it should be implemented. and besides, API mods seem to work well enough for this
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04:44 LoneWolfHT Is it just me or is this user broken? https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=376792#p376792
05:03 luk3yx Could it be a deleted user?
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14:32 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It looks like the server list might be ignoring the Accept-Encoding header when deciding whether to return the server list JSON gzipped.
14:33 MTDiscord <Warr1024> (either it or some reverse proxy or CDN or something)
14:34 sfan5 entirely possible
14:35 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It does now strike me as a bit odd that --compressed is not enabled by default in my curl cmdline tool.
14:36 MTDiscord <Warr1024> HTTP requests w/o compression support are pretty much an anachronism these days
14:38 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Compressed responses w/o compression-enabled requests is definitely wrong, but I don't know if it's really worth fixing anyway.
14:38 sfan5 should be fixed now anyway
14:38 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Oh, thanks
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16:21 tech_exorcist where is Minetest's client↔server communication protocol's documentation, if there is any?
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16:25 sfan5 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/protocol.txt
16:31 tech_exorcist thanks! :D
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21:51 sfan5 somewhat interesting: map positions mapped to heat (X) and humidity (Y) used by biome gen thus showing a Voronoi diagram of biomes
21:51 sfan5 https://i.imgur.com/wOCNukS.png
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22:34 leo_rockway I thought the biome transition was subtle, not sharp like that.
22:34 leo_rockway unless that's not minetest?
22:38 sfan5 the heat/humidity noise takes care of subtle transitions, here it's just a linear function
22:41 MTDiscord <Warr1024> it's a verynoice diagram
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22:52 leo_rockway sfan5: gotcha. Thanks.
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23:20 Herkules Hello, i have a quick modding question:
23:20 Herkules Is there a method or function that gives me the unix-timestamp?
23:22 sfan5 os.time(os.date("!*t"))
23:23 sfan5 or maybe just os.time()
23:23 sfan5 (I googled "lua unix time" for that)
23:25 Herkules Thank you very much for that quick answer.  It does work :)
23:26 Herkules Now i look like a fool.  I somehow thought that i can't call os in my mods.
23:26 sfan5 they're indeed sandboxed but harmless functions are left in
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23:27 Herkules Nice to know for future projects.
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