| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:38 |
|
troller joined #minetest |
| 00:57 |
Xiong |
IhrFussel, thanks for your views. |
| 00:57 |
Xiong |
I dislike both terms: "creative" and "survival". Each entails complex semantics while in the MT engine they refer merely to a single choice of feature: Must items be crafted from resources or may they be created by the player on demand? |
| 00:57 |
Xiong |
I feel "creative" mode eliminates most of the challenge I find interesting. But few of the unrelated features appeal to me, which people associate with "survival". I do not want to fight. I like using my mind and working with others. I have no desire to test my reaction time. |
| 00:57 |
Xiong |
Reading the phrase "Very exciting gameplay" nauseates me. My real life qualifies as "very exciting". My work is listed as one of the dangerous in US. You might find it exciting. (Please don't suggest I get another job; I'm fully invested in my career of 28 years.) After a night of trying to guess whether another fellow is about to fire his weapon at me, I want to work in my garden... not face down sword-wielding zombies. |
| 00:57 |
Xiong |
I prefer to mine, farm, craft, and build. |
| 01:03 |
Xiong |
IhrFussel, for Android players it's a choice between 5.0.0 and no meaningful multiplayer at all. See https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7525 I have failed to find any way to fix this in any 0.4 package. |
| 01:09 |
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nowhere_man joined #minetest |
| 01:15 |
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superfly joined #minetest |
| 01:20 |
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superfly joined #minetest |
| 01:24 |
IhrFussel |
Xiong, this has been fixed a few days ago when the 0.4.17.1 app was updated on the play store |
| 01:25 |
IhrFussel |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7525#issuecomment-452224058 |
| 01:43 |
dogetest |
Hello! I'm thinking of building a minetest crypto spin off. I've done a dogecoin mod which is basically a lua's dogecoin node jsonrpc api wrapper. one of the problems I see is that players do not fully control their balances. pretty much like a #dogecoin wallet-bot. Another problem is that of the world tokenization and it's implications to the game engine, platform and mechanics. I believe the blockchain nature could give minete |
| 01:45 |
dogetest |
I believe the problem of balance control could be solved with something like browsers metamask extension |
| 01:56 |
dogetest |
But I'm fearful of diving into it and spending too much time at trial and error |
| 02:00 |
rubenwardy |
what actual benefit do you gain from adding this, and why can't it be done using more efficient methods? |
| 02:04 |
dogetest |
There are some blows at the forum about decentralization, third-party authentication along with other similar topics. |
| 02:05 |
dogetest |
I think building a similar metamask solution could help solving some of those |
| 02:06 |
dogetest |
along with "world tokenization" whatever that means |
| 02:21 |
Xiong |
IhrFussel, the short answer is, I'm not convinced. In any case I needed to adapt to the newer version; not sure I want to readapt to the old... then rereadapt to the new when it's official. |
| 02:22 |
Xiong |
I do not enjoy engineering the game. I'd prefer merely to play. |
| 02:23 |
IhrFussel |
Xiong, that is fine if you only need a small portion of currently popular servers or only play in SP mainly ... like I said I don't expect many major servers to upgrade anytime soon |
| 02:23 |
Xiong |
dogetest, please understand I speak from concern. Do you know much about economics? |
| 02:24 |
Xiong |
Dunno what others will do. I'm tired. I want peaceful, uneventful play. |
| 02:25 |
IhrFussel |
A new userbase doesn't just grow on top of trees ... it's rather hard to establish one in MT cause users are very limited |
| 02:25 |
Xiong |
I don't think what I want much matters. 0.4 is broken. |
| 02:26 |
Xiong |
There are far too many players if there are more delinquents than all the devs and admins put together can manage. |
| 02:26 |
Xiong |
Put out one fire before starting another. |
| 02:27 |
IhrFussel |
5.0.0 will not solve every problem... modified clients will still be possible and there is no server side movement ... the controls in the app are much better and there are many new features and bugfixes ... it will not fix broken server gameplay though |
| 02:28 |
Xiong |
Why are you discussing this IhrFussel? Are you trying to engage me? Or do you want someone else to debate you? |
| 02:29 |
IhrFussel |
No, you said 0.4 is broken and I mentioned that 5.0.0 will also still be "broken" in certain aspects |
| 02:30 |
Xiong |
That's irrelevant. I can't chat using an 0.4 client. |
| 02:30 |
Xiong |
No chat means a meaningless multiplayer game. Done. |
| 02:31 |
IhrFussel |
You can if you update your Android app now ... but the chat isn't the only important thing on a server... fair gameplay should be a very high priority on every server that doesn't allow everything |
| 02:31 |
Xiong |
If I revert, it'll be to singleplayer. I may do that. |
| 02:33 |
Xiong |
You have not convinced me. I read the issue's most recent report before I linked it here... I'm not a fool. One banana don't make a circus. |
| 02:33 |
Xiong |
In any case... I am seriously unhappy at the thought of more installation nonsense. I dislike that. |
| 02:35 |
IhrFussel |
Multiple people reported that the bug is now fixed since a few days ... but if you don't trust those reports so be it |
| 02:35 |
Xiong |
Sometimes I think all mt people are software jocks, eat this stuff for midnight snacks. I try to install things thst work, fiddle a little to settle in... and not update for months. |
| 02:35 |
Xiong |
You live at sn entirely different rate. |
| 02:36 |
IhrFussel |
Most apps get an update at least once per month ... MT updates happen rather rarely (usually only once per release) |
| 02:37 |
Xiong |
You really are talking to hear yourself. I hear you. You like the fooling around. I don't. Can we agree that one size does not fit all? |
| 02:37 |
Ruslan1 |
Hello anyone |
| 02:39 |
IhrFussel |
I just don't understand what your actual problem is... MT is too complicated for you? |
| 02:39 |
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roben1430 joined #minetest |
| 02:40 |
Xiong |
I was angry I installed a blatantly broken app. The issue has been outstanding for years. I spent weeks looking for a workaround. Finally I broke down and danced with the devil on the bleeding edge. When do I get a lollipop? When am I permitted to play? |
| 02:41 |
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| 02:42 |
Xiong |
Fixing a running vehicle while attempting to drive the freeway is too risky for me. All the work I put in, in singleplayer, is gone. All the work I put in, in 5.0 multiplayer, is wasted. I'd like to *build*, to make progress. |
| 02:43 |
|
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| 02:44 |
Xiong |
I can't seem to express this idea clearly. I want to play the game, to construct items that amuse. Not to defend them against marauders, not to tinker with the engine to keep the jalopy alive. |
| 02:45 |
IhrFussel |
You can just stay on 5.0.0 now... it will just be a weird time cause you never know which server is playable yet and which not |
| 02:45 |
Xiong |
You may want sth different and that's fine. But that's on excuse for constantly asking me what I want. Is it? |
| 02:46 |
Xiong |
*no excuse |
| 02:46 |
Xiong |
I don't think any server is playable. |
| 02:46 |
dogetest |
I didn't meant to relate my message with the topic you were discussing, but I think at a tokenized world, each node would be a non-fungible token, like a cryptokitties |
| 02:46 |
Xiong |
You go ahead and point to one. |
| 02:48 |
IhrFussel |
Xiong, my server certainly is playable ... your issue is with the Android app that contained a bug untila few days ago which made every server unplayable on Android ... but PC and iOS users had no problems playing on servers |
| 02:48 |
Xiong |
dogetest do you have any economics background? You are discussing an economic model and seem caught up in implementation details. What sort of economy do you want to build? |
| 02:48 |
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nowhere_man joined #minetest |
| 02:48 |
IhrFussel |
Now you refuse to update your broken app even after you've been told that the servers will work now for you |
| 02:48 |
Xiong |
IhrFussel how many security incidents hsve you had in the past month? |
| 02:48 |
|
paramat joined #minetest |
| 02:49 |
Xiong |
You are conflating two distinct issued |
| 02:49 |
Xiong |
Must you continue? |
| 02:50 |
Xiong |
Actually I think maybe four issues. You keep stirring them together. |
| 02:50 |
Xiong |
How many incidents? |
| 02:50 |
IhrFussel |
None, cause I know how to code and therefore check every single mod for exploits... I agree that server owners, who don't know much about MT modding/lua, and just want to offer a fun server, can have a wide variety of security issues |
| 02:52 |
IhrFussel |
Their only hope is a quick mod update which they can then apply to stop the exploit |
| 02:52 |
Xiong |
Ah okay. So you don't have players building elaborate ugly lethal defenses? You have a well-run world. |
| 02:52 |
paramat |
Xiong the 'GL_INVALID_ENUM' issue is now fixed in the latest 0.4 android app, plus a few other minor bugfixes. there is no reason to not upgrade, you're being highly irrational |
| 02:53 |
IhrFussel |
Wait wait... I thought we talked about game security such as running arbitrary code, duplication glitches etc ... what has that to do with 'defenses'? |
| 02:53 |
Xiong |
paramat it's not upgrade for me, it's downgrade... which in practical terms means wipe and reinstall. |
| 02:53 |
paramat |
you don't have to readapt, it's only the 0.4 app with a bugfix |
| 02:54 |
paramat |
'I'm not convinced' you have my word as a core dev |
| 02:54 |
Xiong |
0.4 -> 5.0 -> 0.4 - 5.0 |
| 02:54 |
paramat |
'I can't chat using an 0.4 client.' you can now |
| 02:55 |
IhrFussel |
It was your choice to install 5.0.0-dev early... you could also have downgraded to 0.4.16 btw which does NOT contain that bug AFAIK |
| 02:55 |
Xiong |
That's what we're discussing. Each new install consumes about two days, for one reason or another. |
| 02:56 |
IhrFussel |
The chat spam started in the 0.4.17 Android app IIRC |
| 02:56 |
Xiong |
Yes. And when I said no, I'll wait, I'll stick with 0.4, broken or not... I was abused for that choice. |
| 02:57 |
IhrFussel |
You make an app update sound so dramatic |
| 02:57 |
Xiong |
You really have no idea how it looks from my viewpoint? |
| 02:58 |
Xiong |
This is a phone. I go to Play and click Install and play the game. Anything past that is sheer merry hell. |
| 02:58 |
paramat |
oh you're on 5.0.0, ok |
| 02:59 |
IhrFussel |
How many people did you actually ask for solutions? I saw the suggestion 'just uninstall 0.4.17 and install 0.4.16 again' quite a few times |
| 03:00 |
Xiong |
Upgrade, downgrade, sideload, pull from master... I used to be an engineer, I know about these things. But I only recently... under duress... finally hacked my way into a bash shell. |
| 03:00 |
paramat |
the 5.0.0 app doesn't have the I can't chat using an 0.4 client. |
| 03:00 |
paramat |
oops ignore that .. |
| 03:01 |
Xiong |
IhrFussel let it be. Do you think I counted? |
| 03:01 |
paramat |
the app 5.0.0 version doesn't have the 'GL_INVALID_ENUM' bug |
| 03:01 |
Xiong |
More to the point... why should I ask? Who should I ask? "Click Install". |
| 03:02 |
Xiong |
You are obviously a software jock. Others don't see through your eyes. |
| 03:03 |
Xiong |
The inability of software people to understand the minds of common users is at the root of so much shit clever software. |
| 03:03 |
paramat |
ugh i misunderstood sorry |
| 03:04 |
Xiong |
We don't care how right or smart you are. We care that when we dumbasses hit the button, the lights come on. |
| 03:05 |
IhrFussel |
If you would've asked I'm sure people would have given you detailed instructions... also if you MANAGED to install 5.0.0-dev you try to tell me that you don't know how to install an older app version? Something doesn't add up here |
| 03:06 |
Xiong |
paramat I don't think you misunderstood anything. I bitched for weeks about that bug, right here, linked it a dozen times... and eventually was bullied and bribed into sideloading 5.0.0-todaysth. Great. It's an improvement. |
| 03:07 |
Xiong |
Okay IhrFussel. You tell me how to root my phone without Netflix screwing me. |
| 03:09 |
Xiong |
"If you would've asked I'm sure people would have given you detailed instructions..." - - I'm sure too. I'm not sure they'd work or be practical or correct. |
| 03:10 |
Xiong |
I'm reasonably sure I'd have gotten one complete set of instructions that were dead wrong. |
| 03:10 |
IhrFussel |
Installing an app from a website is far more simple than rooting your phone ... and you already did do it to get 5.0.0-dev which is only available through sideloading (as you mentioned) ... so you just refuse to install another version now for some reason |
| 03:10 |
paramat |
you weren't abused or bullied, it was 'recommendation' with good intention |
| 03:11 |
Xiong |
Abused and bullied. I was there for it. |
| 03:11 |
paramat |
anyway, a fixed 0.4 app is there if you feel up to reinstalling (it's not that difficult). endless dramatic moaning in IRC won't help you and irritates everyone else |
| 03:13 |
Xiong |
Yes well as it happens I'm not here bitching about that Irrlicht error anymore... because I was bullied into 5.0.0... and I'm man enough to be be glad I was. It works, I'm happy with it. |
| 03:13 |
Xiong |
I don't have an issue with it! No giant outsize issue anyway. |
| 03:14 |
Xiong |
If you want to be irritated, be irritated at IhrFussel, who will not accept what I just said. |
| 03:15 |
Xiong |
I'm sticking with 5.0.0. Okay? |
| 03:15 |
IhrFussel |
getting the fixed app would've been this easy: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/releases/download/0.4.17.1/Minetest-0.4.17.3.apk ... but I already said it is your choice which version you keep using now... I only told you that the majority of servers is not available (yet) for your version |
| 03:15 |
Xiong |
See what I mean paramat? |
| 03:16 |
ircSparky |
"be irritated at IhrFussel, who will not accept what I just said." "it is your choice which version you keep using" |
| 03:16 |
ircSparky |
he is accepting it, he is merely pointing out the issues you may run into |
| 03:16 |
Xiong |
No. |
| 03:18 |
ircSparky |
ok |
| 03:18 |
IhrFussel |
I kinda feel like he's some troll or something... first he complains about a "broken 0.4" then I told him that it's fixed now...then he complains about servers being unplayable cause of the non-existing broken 0.4 (as of now) and he suddenly doesn't care about the servers anymore |
| 03:18 |
ircSparky |
but the issue is resolved now? 5.0.0 works for you? |
| 03:19 |
Xiong |
No IhrFussel you are the troll. I complained about sloppy server management. You keep trying to screwdriver that into a software version issue. |
| 03:20 |
ircSparky |
ok so your client is fine now? |
| 03:20 |
IhrFussel |
You complained about a BUG ... that bug had nothing to do with server management |
| 03:21 |
Xiong |
No, not today. Not for weeks. |
| 03:21 |
Xiong |
I. Like. 5.0.0 |
| 03:21 |
Xiong |
It works well enough. |
| 03:22 |
ircSparky |
ok |
| 03:22 |
ircSparky |
so no worries there |
| 03:22 |
Xiong |
Drop this whole 0.4 idea out of your mind. It doesn't apply to me. |
| 03:22 |
IhrFussel |
Yes it works but not on 95% of servers and I feel like your original idea was to play on SERVERS |
| 03:23 |
Xiong |
Okay that is your issue. |
| 03:23 |
Xiong |
Enjoy it but don't pin it on me. |
| 03:23 |
IhrFussel |
You even wanted suggestions for a good server that fits your taste... you are really confuding |
| 03:23 |
IhrFussel |
confusing* |
| 03:23 |
Xiong |
Yes. I want to talk servers. Not versions. |
| 03:24 |
ircSparky |
there are only 7 compatible servers up atm fir you selected version |
| 03:24 |
ircSparky |
8* |
| 03:25 |
Xiong |
I don't really want to talk servers either... that's shorthand. I want to talk about server administration... the social aspects of it. |
| 03:25 |
|
Hawk777 joined #minetest |
| 03:25 |
IhrFussel |
Then lets talk about server administration... I'm curious what you think server owners/staff should be like on their servers |
| 03:26 |
Xiong |
ircSparky is that a fixed number? Like the quantity of prime numbers less than a dozen? If not, it's not a terrifically important fact... and one with which everyone here is already familiar. |
| 03:27 |
Xiong |
Sorry that was rude. |
| 03:27 |
ircSparky |
no, it is a number that is defined by the number of people willing to host a server for free on a game version that is not technically released yet |
| 03:27 |
ircSparky |
that is the likely reason the server number is low |
| 03:28 |
ircSparky |
either way, you dont want to talk about that |
| 03:28 |
Xiong |
I'm frustrated about all this technical masturbation. Games involve people, games with many people involve society. Instead we're talking wires and gears. |
| 03:29 |
Xiong |
I'm supremely uninterested in whinging about 5.0.0 adoption rate. Yes. |
| 03:30 |
ircSparky |
fair enough, your issue is with the way servers are run? |
| 03:31 |
Xiong |
I'm deeply concerned that we're fostering an antagonistic society of violent felons, admins obsessed with shiny things, and citizens driven to build antisocially. |
| 03:32 |
Xiong |
Money? Really? Is that our best effort? Reinvent money? Oh yes and let's do that in total ignorance of basic economic principles. |
| 03:32 |
ircSparky |
ok, but that is a bit of a generalization |
| 03:32 |
ircSparky |
since I do not do that |
| 03:33 |
ircSparky |
most of my servers have been me trying to get people to work together |
| 03:33 |
Xiong |
I asked one admin: How is new money created in your economy? He didn't have the first idea what I meant. |
| 03:34 |
Xiong |
All useful statements are generalizations. |
| 03:34 |
Xiong |
Let that sink in while I brb. |
| 03:35 |
ircSparky |
but I have little say in how other server administrators run their servers |
| 03:36 |
ircSparky |
we dont |
| 03:36 |
ircSparky |
you should talk to the server administrators in question |
| 03:38 |
Xiong |
Obviously. |
| 03:41 |
Xiong |
So last night after another violent night at $work... better than most actually... I came home, opened mt, and discovered someone had glitched through two steel doors to dig a kilometer-deep deathtrap for me. Bones are bones but the home invasion is upsetting. I looked up to find this MightyFine person hovering 50 meters overhead. |
| 03:43 |
ircSparky |
what server was this? |
| 03:44 |
Xiong |
I decided to try sleep. I woke and spent a few hours with admin reconstructing the crime... showing the attack was deliberate, very clever, devious, dangerous. Almost certainly to me since the bad actor did not pick me randomly. Likely to everyone on the server since he doesn't confine his actions to me... merely focused them. |
| 03:46 |
Xiong |
Also tried to show how the crime was in fact a crime /de jure/, not merely patent vandalism but a rules violation. |
| 03:48 |
Xiong |
The admin wasted an hour reconstructing a narrative in which the perp merely wandered in by legitimate means and violated no rule. Admin only able to do this by determined effort to ignore most of what I said... and tampering with evidence. |
| 03:49 |
Xiong |
That's not funny! |
| 03:51 |
Xiong |
"Please look at this." - "Look at what?" (waste 15 min in exchange and follow-me) - "So where is it?" (destroys what I'm trying to show him). |
| 03:52 |
IhrFussel |
Each server is its own "dictatorship" if you want to call it that ... only very few servers actually let the players decide about things ... you hear 'my server, my rules...obey or leave' from any direction |
| 03:52 |
IhrFussel |
'I play for it so I can do what I want' |
| 03:53 |
IhrFussel |
'I can treat players the way I want and nobody can stop me' |
| 03:53 |
IhrFussel |
I pay* |
| 03:53 |
Xiong |
The final judgment: "He may have done wrong but didn't violate rules. You [meaning me, Xiong] however were stupid and careless for not spending all your playtime building a blastproof bunker filled with lava traps. You naive fool." |
| 03:54 |
ircSparky |
does the server have protection blocks? |
| 03:54 |
ircSparky |
what server is this? |
| 03:55 |
Xiong |
1952 <IhrFussel> Each server is its own "dictatorship"... Who are you flattering man? That insight was insightful back in... oh, 1996. |
| 03:56 |
Xiong |
Yes the model of internet society is the local god. Are we done wth that? |
| 03:57 |
Xiong |
ircSparky your questions aren't relevant. You're asking about the trees. Look at the forest. |
| 03:58 |
ircSparky |
protection blocks keeps things from getting griefed, like in your case. I dont see how that is irrelevant |
| 03:58 |
Xiong |
Did we chat in real time or via carrier pigeon? Was the admin a technical fool or secret buddies with the terrorist? Did I forget and leave the door open? Trees, man. |
| 03:59 |
ircSparky |
if the server doesnt have protection for your builds, and dosnt otherwise keep people from detroying your property, you can find a server that does |
| 03:59 |
Xiong |
Stop looking at the trees. |
| 03:59 |
ircSparky |
i am looking at the issue |
| 03:59 |
ircSparky |
which is your stuff getting griefed |
| 04:00 |
ircSparky |
as you said earlier, there are always agsty teens wanting to wreck stuff |
| 04:00 |
ircSparky |
but you can keep them from doing it with simple mods that most server have |
| 04:00 |
Xiong |
Stop looking at what you think is my issue... if you want to know what my issue is. |
| 04:00 |
ircSparky |
what is you issue? |
| 04:01 |
Xiong |
Don't assume, after five years, I can't craft a claim block. |
| 04:01 |
ircSparky |
that is your issue? |
| 04:02 |
Xiong |
I wrote "two steel doors" for a reason. The reason was not technical. Can you imagine why I wrote that? |
| 04:02 |
ircSparky |
i assume since two steel doors is harder to glitch through than one |
| 04:03 |
ircSparky |
but |
| 04:03 |
ircSparky |
since you're avoiding my question |
| 04:03 |
Xiong |
No. That's a technical explanation. |
| 04:03 |
ircSparky |
which is imperative for me to try to help you, i am going to assume you are trolling me |
| 04:03 |
ircSparky |
and call it a night |
| 04:03 |
ircSparky |
have a good one man |
| 04:03 |
Xiong |
No. You are trolling me. |
| 04:04 |
Xiong |
You asked for my story, I told it. |
| 04:05 |
Xiong |
You look at the trees... the moss on the side of one tree. You don't see I'm telling you the forest is burning. |
| 04:05 |
IhrFussel |
You should probably not put much effort into another server anymore UNTIL you are very certain that this server will treat you well |
| 04:06 |
Xiong |
You interrupted me twice to ask questions. Do you always walk out in the middle of a cop show because you don't already know eho gets shot? |
| 04:08 |
Xiong |
And so arrogant to assume you're able to help. I'm not the one who needs help here. The whole community needs help. We need... better server security and management... which is a social issue. |
| 04:09 |
IhrFussel |
You still didn't really tell me what server staff should do for you... what help do you expect from them? |
| 04:09 |
IhrFussel |
Or what behavior do you expect |
| 04:09 |
Xiong |
What do you expect from yourself? |
| 04:09 |
Xiong |
What would you do? |
| 04:10 |
Xiong |
Let's me get out the big Sharpie... |
| 04:10 |
IhrFussel |
Sometimes I waste my time trying to explain new players things just to see them leaving a bit after and never coming back |
| 04:12 |
Xiong |
As you so sagely noted, the net is full of tiny worlds run by local gods. Each within his domain is in absolute control. Yes? |
| 04:12 |
IhrFussel |
Players who don't know how to protect their projects can ask staff to do it for them ... I am not one who says "nah you need to do it on your own...learn or get griefed" |
| 04:12 |
Xiong |
I think "dictator" or "king" is petty understatement. |
| 04:13 |
Xiong |
"Emperor"? "Major General"? I see a lot of guys with fancy titles. |
| 04:14 |
Xiong |
But if you control that corner of the net then you have the power to destroy your world... unlike mere kings and wizards. |
| 04:15 |
IhrFussel |
Yeah although I am not one of those...I listen to my players... I added a feedback command... I WANT critique, I want to know what works well and what is crap on my server in the eyes of others ... I don't mute/kick/ban someone just because we disagree... I like discussing, I try to treat every player the same... no difference between staff and regular member |
| 04:15 |
Xiong |
Therefore, tin gods. No, not dictators. Clear on this point? |
| 04:15 |
Xiong |
Are we clear? |
| 04:16 |
IhrFussel |
You cannot call all server owners in MT "gods" cause this doesn't apply on every server is what I'm trying to say |
| 04:17 |
IhrFussel |
What I just wrote above is NOT what a dictator or god who just wants power would think like |
| 04:17 |
Xiong |
Name the server not owned and operated by a single person or very small clique. |
| 04:19 |
Xiong |
I did not say "god who wants power". I said "god". A god has absolute power; not much aggrandizement possible within the world he made |
| 04:20 |
IhrFussel |
So you claim that any service run by 1 or few people is automatically a "service run by gods"? I can't agree there cause you don't even know how the people running it think like... not every person has the goal to "control everything that happens" |
| 04:21 |
Xiong |
You don't get me. |
| 04:21 |
Xiong |
Maybe wait for me to finish? |
| 04:23 |
IhrFussel |
I need to switch devices BRB (you can still send your messages, I will read them via the log in case I missed any) |
| 04:23 |
Xiong |
You comment on one paragraph, then the next, then the next. If you continue and I try to be courteous and answer half of what you throw at me, you will eventually derail me and I'll never make my point. Congratulations? |
| 04:23 |
Xiong |
So you claim that any service run by 1 or few people is automatically a "service run by gods"? - Yes. |
| 04:24 |
Xiong |
We rational people don't like talk of gods, do we? Offensive. |
| 04:25 |
Xiong |
But theology actually has a well-developed language to describe the situation. You may think Jehovha and Odin are BS but that's beside the point. |
| 04:27 |
Xiong |
Gods can have many different personalities. Some are stern, some are merciful, some kind, some mischievous. Personality does not distinguish gods from men. |
| 04:27 |
Xiong |
I'll pause now for you to think that over. |
| 04:27 |
Xiong |
Let me know if you object. |
| 04:28 |
ircSparky |
One thought: If you share your phone with a few different people, but still remain in control of who, when, and how it's used, would you consider yourself the "God" of that phone? |
| 04:31 |
Xiong |
That's a very small example. Do you live in your phone? |
| 04:32 |
Xiong |
Is your phone a world? How msny people live there? |
| 04:32 |
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| 04:33 |
Xiong |
I'd be most likely to describe an ordinary laptop as an empty world. Yes, you are master of it but without anyone in it. |
| 04:34 |
Xiong |
I doubt anyone else uses your phone so much that you control a significant part of his life. |
| 04:34 |
Xiong |
Answered? |
| 04:36 |
ircSparky |
yea fair enough, though if you live in minetest thats a bit of an issue |
| 04:36 |
IhrFussel |
My point is that not every server has staff who acts like gods |
| 04:37 |
IhrFussel |
Regardless of their power in theory |
| 04:37 |
ircSparky |
and ones that do, you cant do much about, other than leave |
| 04:37 |
ircSparky |
unless they are doing something illegal |
| 04:38 |
ircSparky |
its their hardware |
| 04:39 |
Xiong |
"staff who acts like gods". Irrelevant to the current lemma. |
| 04:39 |
IhrFussel |
Just because you have lots of power doesn't mean you have to use it all |
| 04:39 |
Xiong |
Irrelevant to the current lemma. |
| 04:39 |
ircSparky |
ok, get to your point |
| 04:40 |
Xiong |
I have been doing so. Yes? |
| 04:40 |
Xiong |
Do you agree that behavior does not characterize divinity? |
| 04:41 |
IhrFussel |
You talk in some cryptic language then it seems cause we didn't see any actual points |
| 04:41 |
Xiong |
"Just because you have lots of power doesn't mean you have to use it all" - I'm trying to stamp out that kind of red herring. |
| 04:41 |
Xiong |
What is cryptic? |
| 04:42 |
ircSparky |
well, strincly speaking, divinity is "of, from, or like God or a god." |
| 04:42 |
ircSparky |
ad god is "a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity." |
| 04:43 |
Xiong |
Okay good. At least you're thinking straight. |
| 04:43 |
ircSparky |
so god is a bit of a big word for a server owner, but they have the same abilities, regardless of if they decide to use them |
| 04:43 |
Xiong |
I defined a local, internet tin god as a person who controls an online world. |
| 04:44 |
Xiong |
It is *absolute power* which defines a god... not how he wields it. |
| 04:44 |
IhrFussel |
So the president of a country is also a "god" ... Parents are "gods" in front of their underaged children |
| 04:44 |
Xiong |
Actually "god" is a small, familiar word. Three letters. |
| 04:45 |
Xiong |
No. Presidents lack absolute power. Trump is learning this... or not. |
| 04:45 |
ircSparky |
ok this may be a weird, out of the blue question, but are you OldCoder? there are just some familiar characteristics im picking up |
| 04:46 |
ircSparky |
and its bugging me :P |
| 04:46 |
Xiong |
Very small children do indeed see their parents as gods. But we don't want to veer off into child development. |
| 04:48 |
Xiong |
No I am not OC. I know him, been in convo with him. I think he's slightly deranged. I have been me for 20 years. |
| 04:48 |
ircSparky |
ah, good to know you havent been someone else :P |
| 04:49 |
Xiong |
I noticed early on that my name was often available so I used it... before it was fashionable. |
| 04:49 |
ircSparky |
well carry on |
| 04:50 |
Xiong |
I can't claim to be the only Xiong on the net. But I may well have been the first. No joke. |
| 04:50 |
Xiong |
I am consistently Xiong wherever possible. I don't identity-hop. |
| 04:52 |
Xiong |
Ah... I miswrote. I have been me a long time. But I have been me on the net pretty much since dial-up BBSs. |
| 04:53 |
Xiong |
Haha, back before internet was a thing. |
| 04:53 |
Xiong |
Never mind. |
| 04:54 |
Xiong |
It is *absolute power* which defines a god... not how he wields it. Clear? |
| 04:54 |
Xiong |
Not his personality or even whether he thinks he's a god. |
| 04:55 |
ircSparky |
i dont agree with exact wording of "god" but yes, power is in the ability, not the use |
| 04:55 |
Xiong |
Well, why not? |
| 04:55 |
ircSparky |
god refers to humans and nature, not users and blocks |
| 04:56 |
Xiong |
Gods are gods. No other word in the Engligh language exists to define that sort of entity... except straight synonyms and euphemisms. |
| 04:57 |
Xiong |
Well I object to "user" as well. People are people. |
| 04:58 |
ircSparky |
though the server owners can only affect the people as long as they are in their domain |
| 04:58 |
Xiong |
That's a tree. That's a rock. That's a dog. That's a man. That's a god. |
| 04:58 |
Xiong |
Yes. |
| 04:58 |
ircSparky |
does this matter much for your point? |
| 04:59 |
Xiong |
So I qualify, as needed: tin god. Petty local god. |
| 04:59 |
Xiong |
It is essential. |
| 04:59 |
ircSparky |
continue, then |
| 05:00 |
Xiong |
No sorry. Bring out your objections to what I consider plain speech snd obvious fact. |
| 05:02 |
Xiong |
If I create a world and invite people to live in it, spend time there, invest in building what we all call homes and farms... and I retain the power to destroy any part or all at any moment... then I am, within that toy world and for those... projected shadow people... the local god. |
| 05:03 |
Xiong |
I am, in such case, creator and destroyer, slphs |
| 05:04 |
Xiong |
... Alpha and omega. What more do you want? |
| 05:04 |
Xiong |
I don't see how anyone can object to this statement. |
| 05:05 |
ircSparky |
I think its a minor objection from a slight misuse of a word |
| 05:05 |
ircSparky |
that is, a big word scaled down to something nearly insignificant in comparison |
| 05:05 |
Xiong |
The use is entirely apposite. How not?? |
| 05:06 |
ircSparky |
but I think our intended definitions are the same |
| 05:06 |
ircSparky |
so i would aks you continue with your point |
| 05:06 |
Xiong |
Second time you called "god" a big word. What's a small one? |
| 05:06 |
Xiong |
This *is* my point. Obviously. |
| 05:06 |
ircSparky |
ok so your point is server owners are gods? |
| 05:06 |
ircSparky |
tiny gods? |
| 05:06 |
Xiong |
Dance dance dance. |
| 05:07 |
ircSparky |
yes? |
| 05:07 |
Xiong |
How often have I said this? This is the lemma. |
| 05:07 |
ircSparky |
ok, anything else to add? |
| 05:08 |
Xiong |
What do you mean add? You accept or not? |
| 05:08 |
Xiong |
Not a misuse of a big word. The correct use of a small word. |
| 05:09 |
Xiong |
If you control a world eith absolute power than you are its god. |
| 05:10 |
ircSparky |
I still have the wording objection |
| 05:10 |
ircSparky |
but say i agreed with the use of "god" |
| 05:10 |
ircSparky |
what is the point? |
| 05:10 |
Xiong |
Not king. Not dictator. You may outlive the world but the world will not outluve you. |
| 05:10 |
Xiong |
Your statements are inconsistent. |
| 05:10 |
Xiong |
Agree or object. |
| 05:11 |
ircSparky |
I object with the use of the word "god" because it refers to humans and nature, not users and blocks |
| 05:11 |
Xiong |
People often think I'm a fool because I say exactly what I mean as shortly as possible. I'm not. |
| 05:12 |
Xiong |
What is a user? What blick? |
| 05:12 |
Xiong |
... Block? |
| 05:12 |
Xiong |
L |
| 05:12 |
Xiong |
Why? |
| 05:13 |
ircSparky |
a user is a person using a computer to connect to a game server of their own free will |
| 05:13 |
Xiong |
Endless... pettyfogging. |
| 05:13 |
Xiong |
"a user is a person" |
| 05:13 |
Xiong |
"I object with the use of the word "god" because it refers to humans... " |
| 05:14 |
ircSparky |
yes, i said earlier |
| 05:15 |
Xiong |
Are people humans? Yes. Did I stop being a person when I became a "user"? A lot of programmers seem to think so. Do you? |
| 05:15 |
ircSparky |
a server owner does not have control over your human state, but he does control whether you are a user or not |
| 05:16 |
Xiong |
That's not your stated objection. |
| 05:16 |
ircSparky |
it is? I think its besides the point |
| 05:16 |
Xiong |
I object with the use of the word "god" because it refers to humans and nature, not users and blocks. |
| 05:16 |
ircSparky |
as well |
| 05:17 |
ircSparky |
yes |
| 05:17 |
Xiong |
But now you agree users are humans? |
| 05:17 |
ircSparky |
yes, but gods can affect humans, while owners only affeect users |
| 05:18 |
ircSparky |
as gods |
| 05:18 |
ircSparky |
as a supreme power |
| 05:18 |
ircSparky |
I can affect people by talking to them |
| 05:18 |
Xiong |
If I am a user I am a human. |
| 05:18 |
ircSparky |
that does not mean i have supreme power over them |
| 05:18 |
Xiong |
Affect isn't in the book. |
| 05:19 |
Xiong |
You objected with specific words. |
| 05:19 |
ircSparky |
it shouldnt affect the point |
| 05:19 |
Xiong |
I object with the use of the word "god" because it refers to humans and nature, not users and blocks. |
| 05:19 |
Xiong |
Users are humans. |
| 05:20 |
ircSparky |
gods have supreme power over humans |
| 05:20 |
ircSparky |
as a whole |
| 05:20 |
ircSparky |
to server owners have the same supreme power over humans, as a whole? |
| 05:20 |
ircSparky |
as gods do? |
| 05:20 |
Xiong |
You can see where this is going and you can concede. Then you can raise a fresh objection. You can't evade. |
| 05:21 |
Xiong |
Your statement is bunk, I say with all respect. |
| 05:21 |
ircSparky |
meh, it seems to be you are trying to take a powerful word, size it down to fit the definition of a server owner, then use its linguistic power to convey an emotional point |
| 05:21 |
Xiong |
Please stop sliding away. You picked your spot. |
| 05:22 |
ircSparky |
the text above is why i refuse to use the word |
| 05:22 |
Xiong |
What I do with a tool doesn't affect its heft. |
| 05:22 |
ircSparky |
I'd say try to find a real argument rather than a linguistic trick |
| 05:23 |
Xiong |
You just wrote that if you concede my lemma you must concede my thesis. |
| 05:23 |
ircSparky |
at any rate, it is almost midnight here |
| 05:23 |
ircSparky |
i did? |
| 05:23 |
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| 05:23 |
Xiong |
Ah yes. You can't win, you won't concede, you quit. |
| 05:24 |
Xiong |
Great debate. |
| 05:24 |
ircSparky |
thanks |
| 05:24 |
ircSparky |
not sure what it accomplished though |
| 05:24 |
ircSparky |
have a good one |
| 05:25 |
Xiong |
Your professor is trying to decide between a D and a serious talk about your future as a humanities major. |
| 05:25 |
ircSparky |
you seem alright with my point about you not using logic, but rather a trick |
| 05:25 |
ircSparky |
<Xiong> What I do with a tool doesn't affect its heft. |
| 05:25 |
Xiong |
It accomplished nothing except to show you ought not to shame yourself trying to argue rationally. |
| 05:25 |
ircSparky |
but i disagree |
| 05:26 |
ircSparky |
ok |
| 05:26 |
Xiong |
I have been strictly and ruthlessly logical. You expect an out. There isn't one. |
| 05:27 |
Xiong |
Name another entity with absolute power in his domain. If another word will serve I'll happily use it. |
| 05:28 |
Xiong |
Not a made-up bit of fluff. A word. You don't like my choice, you must hsve an alternative. |
| 05:29 |
Xiong |
A supreme being. Creator and destroyer. What is that thing? |
| 05:32 |
Xiong |
Does the concept simply have no name? In all history, have no men ever created little pocket universes? Did no men ever live under the wrath and mercy of such absolutes? Did they then go nameless? |
| 05:34 |
Xiong |
I've wasted my time. Pearls before swine. |
| 05:37 |
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| 05:54 |
Xiong |
*shrug* Those who have difficulty in rational debate over ethics are unlikely to make rational decisions on ethical questions. Which was not my thesis... which was that server admins ought to make better ethical decisions. |
| 06:00 |
sofar |
if you need the urge to discuss server admin ethics, you're not administrating your server correctly, or better, you probably shouldn't at all. |
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| 09:49 |
paramat |
protection is relevant. vanessa correctly explained yesterday http://irc.minetest.net/minetest/2019-01-11#i_5477940 16:52 to 17:04 sums this up. it seems the server admin are incompetant if they disable protection underground without warning players about this. this is the actual issue here, not the collapse of server morality (there often isn't any). please try listening to people who are trying to help you |
| 09:52 |
oiaohm |
Xiong: dungens in D&D, MUD and other games is basically little pocket universes. |
| 09:55 |
oiaohm |
Really I would love the ablity to portal between a collected group of servers. Then have servers be able to be respawn when players are not in them. |
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| 13:55 |
jas_ |
me too |
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| 14:25 |
Swedneck |
Is it possible to use texturepacks in a way where they inherit textures from other texture packs like in minecraft? |
| 14:30 |
Krock |
maybe if you use nested texture packs |
| 14:30 |
Krock |
i.e. textures inside sub-directories of your texture pack |
| 14:30 |
Krock |
might only work in 5.0-dev though |
| 14:31 |
Swedneck |
hmm |
| 14:31 |
Swedneck |
gonna check if there's an issue open for it, because it's a really nice thing to have |
| 14:32 |
Swedneck |
it lets you mix and match texturepacks, using ones with support for many mods as a fallback for ones without much support |
| 14:34 |
Krock |
there was a PR at some point I believe |
| 14:35 |
* Swedneck |
wishes he had the mind for programming so he could use all his spare time to just implement things he wants |
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| 14:50 |
Swedneck |
not sure how much of the issue template is needed for a feature request, i doubt hardware is relevant.. |
| 14:53 |
rubenwardy |
there was already a feature request, pretty sure it was closed |
| 14:53 |
jas_ |
lol |
| 14:54 |
Swedneck |
link? |
| 14:55 |
rubenwardy |
cba |
| 14:55 |
Swedneck |
thanks |
| 14:55 |
rubenwardy |
something like stacked or layered texture packs |
| 14:55 |
* rubenwardy |
gets back to revising |
| 14:55 |
jas_ |
#3832 |
| 14:55 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3832 -- Layered/Cascaded Texture Packs |
| 14:56 |
Swedneck |
actual thanks |
| 14:56 |
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| 14:56 |
jas_ |
actual welcome |
| 14:56 |
jas_ |
i just typed what ruben said, well first i tried cascade but it was two wrong issues, then i tried layered, and voila |
| 14:56 |
jas_ |
or is it et voila, i dunno french |
| 14:57 |
Swedneck |
sooo, i guess it's just not going to happen? |
| 14:57 |
jas_ |
but it was closed for #6412 ? |
| 14:57 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6412 -- [2nd] Load textures from the subfolders in texturepacks by numberZero |
| 14:57 |
jas_ |
"won't add" paramat labeled, and says that one ^ does the trick |
| 14:57 |
Swedneck |
great, lovely |
| 14:58 |
jas_ |
so |
| 14:58 |
jas_ |
test it in current head |
| 14:58 |
jas_ |
if you're on windows, i recommend sfan5's builds, or gitlab.com/minetest/minetest/pipelines <- it has binaries, but ithink not luajit? |
| 14:59 |
Swedneck |
So with that PR, you can put a texturepack inside another texturepack to achieve what i'm looking for? |
| 14:59 |
jas_ |
no i think it was merged? or not? let me see, that's why i wanted u to test current minetest |
| 15:00 |
jas_ |
to see if it was in there, haha, i will try and tell |
| 15:00 |
jas_ |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/05d93c7fa1be9245dd5211b7dc1bdf0961b39eea |
| 15:00 |
Swedneck |
i'm on linux btw |
| 15:00 |
jas_ |
i think it's in, but read the comments i didn't -- something something only partially covered the feature request? i didn't read it sorry, but if you test and find it doesn't address the request |
| 15:01 |
jas_ |
then, you know |
| 15:01 |
jas_ |
something, something |
| 15:01 |
Swedneck |
well it definitely doesn't fully address it, as i want a UI for it |
| 15:02 |
jas_ |
i just `apt build-dep minetest` and then `git clone git://github.com/minetest/minetest.git` and don't forget the game, and then cmake . -DRUN_IN_PLACE=1 (or not) and make. i stopped doing the make install bit, cause it seems like extra work |
| 15:02 |
jas_ |
oh |
| 15:02 |
Swedneck |
but if what this does is let you just put a texturepack inside another texturepack, and have it use both with one of them overriding textures in the other, then i'll just open an issue for adding a UI to do it from the menu |
| 15:02 |
jas_ |
so at least comment? |
| 15:02 |
jas_ |
yeah, good to know something got in, i didn't even know about that |
| 15:02 |
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| 15:17 |
MinetestBot |
[git] osjc -> minetest/minetest: Fix fake LINT check success (#8092) 03cc93f https://git.io/fhnCB (2019-01-12T15:15:42Z) |
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| 15:59 |
MinetestBot |
[git] osjc -> minetest/minetest: Optimize path finalization in pathfinder (#8100) 5a00b11 https://git.io/fhnWE (2019-01-12T15:57:26Z) |
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| 16:24 |
dogetest |
Is it possible to use http api within client lua api? |
| 16:25 |
Krock |
yes, but you'll need the insecure mod env: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L4478 |
| 16:25 |
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Krock |
actually not the entire mod env, just for this specific function |
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| 17:36 |
ircSparky |
does anyone know the exact camera position relative to wield node meshes? |
| 17:37 |
ircSparky |
well, before its affected my user pitch |
| 17:37 |
ircSparky |
by* |
| 17:38 |
ircSparky |
meh, thats dosnt make much sense |
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| 17:38 |
ircSparky |
I want to know where i can put the camera in blender that will be an accurate representation of where the mesh will be when ingame as a mesh node in your hand |
| 17:39 |
ircSparky |
im lining up a screenshot atm |
| 17:42 |
ircSparky |
its not accurate enough for doing precise things such as aiming down sights |
| 17:45 |
Ruslan1 |
Hello |
| 17:47 |
ircSparky |
hi |
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| 18:02 |
ircSparky |
wlel i gtg, but this is what i've ended up with |
| 18:02 |
ircSparky |
https://youtu.be/KDjWnz-iwl8 |
| 18:03 |
rubenwardy |
nice! |
| 18:03 |
rubenwardy |
ANAND ^ |
| 18:07 |
ANAND |
Wow! |
| 18:07 |
ANAND |
Very nice! |
| 18:08 |
rubenwardy |
ANAND is hopefully making a new guns mod for ctf ;) |
| 18:08 |
ANAND |
ircSparky: How'd you manage to do that? |
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| 18:12 |
ircSparky |
the mesh part is wuite similar to newhands |
| 18:12 |
ircSparky |
a node with mesh drawtype |
| 18:13 |
ircSparky |
and if you look closely, the can see that i have two different nodes, one fop hip firing, and one doe aiming down sights |
| 18:13 |
ANAND |
Interesting |
| 18:14 |
ircSparky |
the model i made a while back for kaeza, i think he has a similar idea |
| 18:14 |
ircSparky |
had* i should maybe say |
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ircSparky |
hes pretty busy |
| 18:15 |
ircSparky |
i think |
| 18:15 |
rubenwardy |
firearms had such nice potential, shame it was so buggy |
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ircSparky |
if anyone has any knowdlege of the offset of the camera and wielditem, or know of any way to animate or change the default punching, comment on the vid or pm me |
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