Time Nick Message 00:57 Xiong IhrFussel, thanks for your views. 00:57 Xiong I dislike both terms: "creative" and "survival". Each entails complex semantics while in the MT engine they refer merely to a single choice of feature: Must items be crafted from resources or may they be created by the player on demand? 00:57 Xiong I feel "creative" mode eliminates most of the challenge I find interesting. But few of the unrelated features appeal to me, which people associate with "survival". I do not want to fight. I like using my mind and working with others. I have no desire to test my reaction time. 00:57 Xiong Reading the phrase "Very exciting gameplay" nauseates me. My real life qualifies as "very exciting". My work is listed as one of the dangerous in US. You might find it exciting. (Please don't suggest I get another job; I'm fully invested in my career of 28 years.) After a night of trying to guess whether another fellow is about to fire his weapon at me, I want to work in my garden... not face down sword-wielding zombies. 00:57 Xiong I prefer to mine, farm, craft, and build. 01:03 Xiong IhrFussel, for Android players it's a choice between 5.0.0 and no meaningful multiplayer at all. See https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7525 I have failed to find any way to fix this in any 0.4 package. 01:24 IhrFussel Xiong, this has been fixed a few days ago when the 0.4.17.1 app was updated on the play store 01:25 IhrFussel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7525#issuecomment-452224058 01:43 dogetest Hello! I'm thinking of building a minetest crypto spin off. I've done a dogecoin mod which is basically a lua's dogecoin node jsonrpc api wrapper. one of the problems I see is that players do not fully control their balances. pretty much like a #dogecoin wallet-bot. Another problem is that of the world tokenization and it's implications to the game engine, platform and mechanics. I believe the blockchain nature could give minete 01:45 dogetest I believe the problem of balance control could be solved with something like browsers metamask extension 01:56 dogetest But I'm fearful of diving into it and spending too much time at trial and error 02:00 rubenwardy what actual benefit do you gain from adding this, and why can't it be done using more efficient methods? 02:04 dogetest There are some blows at the forum about decentralization, third-party authentication along with other similar topics. 02:05 dogetest I think building a similar metamask solution could help solving some of those 02:06 dogetest along with "world tokenization" whatever that means 02:21 Xiong IhrFussel, the short answer is, I'm not convinced. In any case I needed to adapt to the newer version; not sure I want to readapt to the old... then rereadapt to the new when it's official. 02:22 Xiong I do not enjoy engineering the game. I'd prefer merely to play. 02:23 IhrFussel Xiong, that is fine if you only need a small portion of currently popular servers or only play in SP mainly ... like I said I don't expect many major servers to upgrade anytime soon 02:23 Xiong dogetest, please understand I speak from concern. Do you know much about economics? 02:24 Xiong Dunno what others will do. I'm tired. I want peaceful, uneventful play. 02:25 IhrFussel A new userbase doesn't just grow on top of trees ... it's rather hard to establish one in MT cause users are very limited 02:25 Xiong I don't think what I want much matters. 0.4 is broken. 02:26 Xiong There are far too many players if there are more delinquents than all the devs and admins put together can manage. 02:26 Xiong Put out one fire before starting another. 02:27 IhrFussel 5.0.0 will not solve every problem... modified clients will still be possible and there is no server side movement ... the controls in the app are much better and there are many new features and bugfixes ... it will not fix broken server gameplay though 02:28 Xiong Why are you discussing this IhrFussel? Are you trying to engage me? Or do you want someone else to debate you? 02:29 IhrFussel No, you said 0.4 is broken and I mentioned that 5.0.0 will also still be "broken" in certain aspects 02:30 Xiong That's irrelevant. I can't chat using an 0.4 client. 02:30 Xiong No chat means a meaningless multiplayer game. Done. 02:31 IhrFussel You can if you update your Android app now ... but the chat isn't the only important thing on a server... fair gameplay should be a very high priority on every server that doesn't allow everything 02:31 Xiong If I revert, it'll be to singleplayer. I may do that. 02:33 Xiong You have not convinced me. I read the issue's most recent report before I linked it here... I'm not a fool. One banana don't make a circus. 02:33 Xiong In any case... I am seriously unhappy at the thought of more installation nonsense. I dislike that. 02:35 IhrFussel Multiple people reported that the bug is now fixed since a few days ... but if you don't trust those reports so be it 02:35 Xiong Sometimes I think all mt people are software jocks, eat this stuff for midnight snacks. I try to install things thst work, fiddle a little to settle in... and not update for months. 02:35 Xiong You live at sn entirely different rate. 02:36 IhrFussel Most apps get an update at least once per month ... MT updates happen rather rarely (usually only once per release) 02:37 Xiong You really are talking to hear yourself. I hear you. You like the fooling around. I don't. Can we agree that one size does not fit all? 02:37 Ruslan1 Hello anyone 02:39 IhrFussel I just don't understand what your actual problem is... MT is too complicated for you? 02:40 Xiong I was angry I installed a blatantly broken app. The issue has been outstanding for years. I spent weeks looking for a workaround. Finally I broke down and danced with the devil on the bleeding edge. When do I get a lollipop? When am I permitted to play? 02:42 Xiong Fixing a running vehicle while attempting to drive the freeway is too risky for me. All the work I put in, in singleplayer, is gone. All the work I put in, in 5.0 multiplayer, is wasted. I'd like to *build*, to make progress. 02:44 Xiong I can't seem to express this idea clearly. I want to play the game, to construct items that amuse. Not to defend them against marauders, not to tinker with the engine to keep the jalopy alive. 02:45 IhrFussel You can just stay on 5.0.0 now... it will just be a weird time cause you never know which server is playable yet and which not 02:45 Xiong You may want sth different and that's fine. But that's on excuse for constantly asking me what I want. Is it? 02:46 Xiong *no excuse 02:46 Xiong I don't think any server is playable. 02:46 dogetest I didn't meant to relate my message with the topic you were discussing, but I think at a tokenized world, each node would be a non-fungible token, like a cryptokitties 02:46 Xiong You go ahead and point to one. 02:48 IhrFussel Xiong, my server certainly is playable ... your issue is with the Android app that contained a bug untila few days ago which made every server unplayable on Android ... but PC and iOS users had no problems playing on servers 02:48 Xiong dogetest do you have any economics background? You are discussing an economic model and seem caught up in implementation details. What sort of economy do you want to build? 02:48 IhrFussel Now you refuse to update your broken app even after you've been told that the servers will work now for you 02:48 Xiong IhrFussel how many security incidents hsve you had in the past month? 02:49 Xiong You are conflating two distinct issued 02:49 Xiong Must you continue? 02:50 Xiong Actually I think maybe four issues. You keep stirring them together. 02:50 Xiong How many incidents? 02:50 IhrFussel None, cause I know how to code and therefore check every single mod for exploits... I agree that server owners, who don't know much about MT modding/lua, and just want to offer a fun server, can have a wide variety of security issues 02:52 IhrFussel Their only hope is a quick mod update which they can then apply to stop the exploit 02:52 Xiong Ah okay. So you don't have players building elaborate ugly lethal defenses? You have a well-run world. 02:52 paramat Xiong the 'GL_INVALID_ENUM' issue is now fixed in the latest 0.4 android app, plus a few other minor bugfixes. there is no reason to not upgrade, you're being highly irrational 02:53 IhrFussel Wait wait... I thought we talked about game security such as running arbitrary code, duplication glitches etc ... what has that to do with 'defenses'? 02:53 Xiong paramat it's not upgrade for me, it's downgrade... which in practical terms means wipe and reinstall. 02:53 paramat you don't have to readapt, it's only the 0.4 app with a bugfix 02:54 paramat 'I'm not convinced' you have my word as a core dev 02:54 Xiong 0.4 -> 5.0 -> 0.4 - 5.0 02:54 paramat 'I can't chat using an 0.4 client.' you can now 02:55 IhrFussel It was your choice to install 5.0.0-dev early... you could also have downgraded to 0.4.16 btw which does NOT contain that bug AFAIK 02:55 Xiong That's what we're discussing. Each new install consumes about two days, for one reason or another. 02:56 IhrFussel The chat spam started in the 0.4.17 Android app IIRC 02:56 Xiong Yes. And when I said no, I'll wait, I'll stick with 0.4, broken or not... I was abused for that choice. 02:57 IhrFussel You make an app update sound so dramatic 02:57 Xiong You really have no idea how it looks from my viewpoint? 02:58 Xiong This is a phone. I go to Play and click Install and play the game. Anything past that is sheer merry hell. 02:58 paramat oh you're on 5.0.0, ok 02:59 IhrFussel How many people did you actually ask for solutions? I saw the suggestion 'just uninstall 0.4.17 and install 0.4.16 again' quite a few times 03:00 Xiong Upgrade, downgrade, sideload, pull from master... I used to be an engineer, I know about these things. But I only recently... under duress... finally hacked my way into a bash shell. 03:00 paramat the 5.0.0 app doesn't have the I can't chat using an 0.4 client. 03:00 paramat oops ignore that .. 03:01 Xiong IhrFussel let it be. Do you think I counted? 03:01 paramat the app 5.0.0 version doesn't have the 'GL_INVALID_ENUM' bug 03:01 Xiong More to the point... why should I ask? Who should I ask? "Click Install". 03:02 Xiong You are obviously a software jock. Others don't see through your eyes. 03:03 Xiong The inability of software people to understand the minds of common users is at the root of so much shit clever software. 03:03 paramat ugh i misunderstood sorry 03:04 Xiong We don't care how right or smart you are. We care that when we dumbasses hit the button, the lights come on. 03:05 IhrFussel If you would've asked I'm sure people would have given you detailed instructions... also if you MANAGED to install 5.0.0-dev you try to tell me that you don't know how to install an older app version? Something doesn't add up here 03:06 Xiong paramat I don't think you misunderstood anything. I bitched for weeks about that bug, right here, linked it a dozen times... and eventually was bullied and bribed into sideloading 5.0.0-todaysth. Great. It's an improvement. 03:07 Xiong Okay IhrFussel. You tell me how to root my phone without Netflix screwing me. 03:09 Xiong "If you would've asked I'm sure people would have given you detailed instructions..." - - I'm sure too. I'm not sure they'd work or be practical or correct. 03:10 Xiong I'm reasonably sure I'd have gotten one complete set of instructions that were dead wrong. 03:10 IhrFussel Installing an app from a website is far more simple than rooting your phone ... and you already did do it to get 5.0.0-dev which is only available through sideloading (as you mentioned) ... so you just refuse to install another version now for some reason 03:10 paramat you weren't abused or bullied, it was 'recommendation' with good intention 03:11 Xiong Abused and bullied. I was there for it. 03:11 paramat anyway, a fixed 0.4 app is there if you feel up to reinstalling (it's not that difficult). endless dramatic moaning in IRC won't help you and irritates everyone else 03:13 Xiong Yes well as it happens I'm not here bitching about that Irrlicht error anymore... because I was bullied into 5.0.0... and I'm man enough to be be glad I was. It works, I'm happy with it. 03:13 Xiong I don't have an issue with it! No giant outsize issue anyway. 03:14 Xiong If you want to be irritated, be irritated at IhrFussel, who will not accept what I just said. 03:15 Xiong I'm sticking with 5.0.0. Okay? 03:15 IhrFussel getting the fixed app would've been this easy: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/releases/download/0.4.17.1/Minetest-0.4.17.3.apk ... but I already said it is your choice which version you keep using now... I only told you that the majority of servers is not available (yet) for your version 03:15 Xiong See what I mean paramat? 03:16 ircSparky "be irritated at IhrFussel, who will not accept what I just said." "it is your choice which version you keep using" 03:16 ircSparky he is accepting it, he is merely pointing out the issues you may run into 03:16 Xiong No. 03:18 ircSparky ok 03:18 IhrFussel I kinda feel like he's some troll or something... first he complains about a "broken 0.4" then I told him that it's fixed now...then he complains about servers being unplayable cause of the non-existing broken 0.4 (as of now) and he suddenly doesn't care about the servers anymore 03:18 ircSparky but the issue is resolved now? 5.0.0 works for you? 03:19 Xiong No IhrFussel you are the troll. I complained about sloppy server management. You keep trying to screwdriver that into a software version issue. 03:20 ircSparky ok so your client is fine now? 03:20 IhrFussel You complained about a BUG ... that bug had nothing to do with server management 03:21 Xiong No, not today. Not for weeks. 03:21 Xiong I. Like. 5.0.0 03:21 Xiong It works well enough. 03:22 ircSparky ok 03:22 ircSparky so no worries there 03:22 Xiong Drop this whole 0.4 idea out of your mind. It doesn't apply to me. 03:22 IhrFussel Yes it works but not on 95% of servers and I feel like your original idea was to play on SERVERS 03:23 Xiong Okay that is your issue. 03:23 Xiong Enjoy it but don't pin it on me. 03:23 IhrFussel You even wanted suggestions for a good server that fits your taste... you are really confuding 03:23 IhrFussel confusing* 03:23 Xiong Yes. I want to talk servers. Not versions. 03:24 ircSparky there are only 7 compatible servers up atm fir you selected version 03:24 ircSparky 8* 03:25 Xiong I don't really want to talk servers either... that's shorthand. I want to talk about server administration... the social aspects of it. 03:25 IhrFussel Then lets talk about server administration... I'm curious what you think server owners/staff should be like on their servers 03:26 Xiong ircSparky is that a fixed number? Like the quantity of prime numbers less than a dozen? If not, it's not a terrifically important fact... and one with which everyone here is already familiar. 03:27 Xiong Sorry that was rude. 03:27 ircSparky no, it is a number that is defined by the number of people willing to host a server for free on a game version that is not technically released yet 03:27 ircSparky that is the likely reason the server number is low 03:28 ircSparky either way, you dont want to talk about that 03:28 Xiong I'm frustrated about all this technical masturbation. Games involve people, games with many people involve society. Instead we're talking wires and gears. 03:29 Xiong I'm supremely uninterested in whinging about 5.0.0 adoption rate. Yes. 03:30 ircSparky fair enough, your issue is with the way servers are run? 03:31 Xiong I'm deeply concerned that we're fostering an antagonistic society of violent felons, admins obsessed with shiny things, and citizens driven to build antisocially. 03:32 Xiong Money? Really? Is that our best effort? Reinvent money? Oh yes and let's do that in total ignorance of basic economic principles. 03:32 ircSparky ok, but that is a bit of a generalization 03:32 ircSparky since I do not do that 03:33 ircSparky most of my servers have been me trying to get people to work together 03:33 Xiong I asked one admin: How is new money created in your economy? He didn't have the first idea what I meant. 03:34 Xiong All useful statements are generalizations. 03:34 Xiong Let that sink in while I brb. 03:35 ircSparky but I have little say in how other server administrators run their servers 03:36 ircSparky we dont 03:36 ircSparky you should talk to the server administrators in question 03:38 Xiong Obviously. 03:41 Xiong So last night after another violent night at $work... better than most actually... I came home, opened mt, and discovered someone had glitched through two steel doors to dig a kilometer-deep deathtrap for me. Bones are bones but the home invasion is upsetting. I looked up to find this MightyFine person hovering 50 meters overhead. 03:43 ircSparky what server was this? 03:44 Xiong I decided to try sleep. I woke and spent a few hours with admin reconstructing the crime... showing the attack was deliberate, very clever, devious, dangerous. Almost certainly to me since the bad actor did not pick me randomly. Likely to everyone on the server since he doesn't confine his actions to me... merely focused them. 03:46 Xiong Also tried to show how the crime was in fact a crime /de jure/, not merely patent vandalism but a rules violation. 03:48 Xiong The admin wasted an hour reconstructing a narrative in which the perp merely wandered in by legitimate means and violated no rule. Admin only able to do this by determined effort to ignore most of what I said... and tampering with evidence. 03:49 Xiong That's not funny! 03:51 Xiong "Please look at this." - "Look at what?" (waste 15 min in exchange and follow-me) - "So where is it?" (destroys what I'm trying to show him). 03:52 IhrFussel Each server is its own "dictatorship" if you want to call it that ... only very few servers actually let the players decide about things ... you hear 'my server, my rules...obey or leave' from any direction 03:52 IhrFussel 'I play for it so I can do what I want' 03:53 IhrFussel 'I can treat players the way I want and nobody can stop me' 03:53 IhrFussel I pay* 03:53 Xiong The final judgment: "He may have done wrong but didn't violate rules. You [meaning me, Xiong] however were stupid and careless for not spending all your playtime building a blastproof bunker filled with lava traps. You naive fool." 03:54 ircSparky does the server have protection blocks? 03:54 ircSparky what server is this? 03:55 Xiong 1952 Each server is its own "dictatorship"... Who are you flattering man? That insight was insightful back in... oh, 1996. 03:56 Xiong Yes the model of internet society is the local god. Are we done wth that? 03:57 Xiong ircSparky your questions aren't relevant. You're asking about the trees. Look at the forest. 03:58 ircSparky protection blocks keeps things from getting griefed, like in your case. I dont see how that is irrelevant 03:58 Xiong Did we chat in real time or via carrier pigeon? Was the admin a technical fool or secret buddies with the terrorist? Did I forget and leave the door open? Trees, man. 03:59 ircSparky if the server doesnt have protection for your builds, and dosnt otherwise keep people from detroying your property, you can find a server that does 03:59 Xiong Stop looking at the trees. 03:59 ircSparky i am looking at the issue 03:59 ircSparky which is your stuff getting griefed 04:00 ircSparky as you said earlier, there are always agsty teens wanting to wreck stuff 04:00 ircSparky but you can keep them from doing it with simple mods that most server have 04:00 Xiong Stop looking at what you think is my issue... if you want to know what my issue is. 04:00 ircSparky what is you issue? 04:01 Xiong Don't assume, after five years, I can't craft a claim block. 04:01 ircSparky that is your issue? 04:02 Xiong I wrote "two steel doors" for a reason. The reason was not technical. Can you imagine why I wrote that? 04:02 ircSparky i assume since two steel doors is harder to glitch through than one 04:03 ircSparky but 04:03 ircSparky since you're avoiding my question 04:03 Xiong No. That's a technical explanation. 04:03 ircSparky which is imperative for me to try to help you, i am going to assume you are trolling me 04:03 ircSparky and call it a night 04:03 ircSparky have a good one man 04:03 Xiong No. You are trolling me. 04:04 Xiong You asked for my story, I told it. 04:05 Xiong You look at the trees... the moss on the side of one tree. You don't see I'm telling you the forest is burning. 04:05 IhrFussel You should probably not put much effort into another server anymore UNTIL you are very certain that this server will treat you well 04:06 Xiong You interrupted me twice to ask questions. Do you always walk out in the middle of a cop show because you don't already know eho gets shot? 04:08 Xiong And so arrogant to assume you're able to help. I'm not the one who needs help here. The whole community needs help. We need... better server security and management... which is a social issue. 04:09 IhrFussel You still didn't really tell me what server staff should do for you... what help do you expect from them? 04:09 IhrFussel Or what behavior do you expect 04:09 Xiong What do you expect from yourself? 04:09 Xiong What would you do? 04:10 Xiong Let's me get out the big Sharpie... 04:10 IhrFussel Sometimes I waste my time trying to explain new players things just to see them leaving a bit after and never coming back 04:12 Xiong As you so sagely noted, the net is full of tiny worlds run by local gods. Each within his domain is in absolute control. Yes? 04:12 IhrFussel Players who don't know how to protect their projects can ask staff to do it for them ... I am not one who says "nah you need to do it on your own...learn or get griefed" 04:12 Xiong I think "dictator" or "king" is petty understatement. 04:13 Xiong "Emperor"? "Major General"? I see a lot of guys with fancy titles. 04:14 Xiong But if you control that corner of the net then you have the power to destroy your world... unlike mere kings and wizards. 04:15 IhrFussel Yeah although I am not one of those...I listen to my players... I added a feedback command... I WANT critique, I want to know what works well and what is crap on my server in the eyes of others ... I don't mute/kick/ban someone just because we disagree... I like discussing, I try to treat every player the same... no difference between staff and regular member 04:15 Xiong Therefore, tin gods. No, not dictators. Clear on this point? 04:15 Xiong Are we clear? 04:16 IhrFussel You cannot call all server owners in MT "gods" cause this doesn't apply on every server is what I'm trying to say 04:17 IhrFussel What I just wrote above is NOT what a dictator or god who just wants power would think like 04:17 Xiong Name the server not owned and operated by a single person or very small clique. 04:19 Xiong I did not say "god who wants power". I said "god". A god has absolute power; not much aggrandizement possible within the world he made 04:20 IhrFussel So you claim that any service run by 1 or few people is automatically a "service run by gods"? I can't agree there cause you don't even know how the people running it think like... not every person has the goal to "control everything that happens" 04:21 Xiong You don't get me. 04:21 Xiong Maybe wait for me to finish? 04:23 IhrFussel I need to switch devices BRB (you can still send your messages, I will read them via the log in case I missed any) 04:23 Xiong You comment on one paragraph, then the next, then the next. If you continue and I try to be courteous and answer half of what you throw at me, you will eventually derail me and I'll never make my point. Congratulations? 04:23 Xiong So you claim that any service run by 1 or few people is automatically a "service run by gods"? - Yes. 04:24 Xiong We rational people don't like talk of gods, do we? Offensive. 04:25 Xiong But theology actually has a well-developed language to describe the situation. You may think Jehovha and Odin are BS but that's beside the point. 04:27 Xiong Gods can have many different personalities. Some are stern, some are merciful, some kind, some mischievous. Personality does not distinguish gods from men. 04:27 Xiong I'll pause now for you to think that over. 04:27 Xiong Let me know if you object. 04:28 ircSparky One thought: If you share your phone with a few different people, but still remain in control of who, when, and how it's used, would you consider yourself the "God" of that phone? 04:31 Xiong That's a very small example. Do you live in your phone? 04:32 Xiong Is your phone a world? How msny people live there? 04:33 Xiong I'd be most likely to describe an ordinary laptop as an empty world. Yes, you are master of it but without anyone in it. 04:34 Xiong I doubt anyone else uses your phone so much that you control a significant part of his life. 04:34 Xiong Answered? 04:36 ircSparky yea fair enough, though if you live in minetest thats a bit of an issue 04:36 IhrFussel My point is that not every server has staff who acts like gods 04:37 IhrFussel Regardless of their power in theory 04:37 ircSparky and ones that do, you cant do much about, other than leave 04:37 ircSparky unless they are doing something illegal 04:38 ircSparky its their hardware 04:39 Xiong "staff who acts like gods". Irrelevant to the current lemma. 04:39 IhrFussel Just because you have lots of power doesn't mean you have to use it all 04:39 Xiong Irrelevant to the current lemma. 04:39 ircSparky ok, get to your point 04:40 Xiong I have been doing so. Yes? 04:40 Xiong Do you agree that behavior does not characterize divinity? 04:41 IhrFussel You talk in some cryptic language then it seems cause we didn't see any actual points 04:41 Xiong "Just because you have lots of power doesn't mean you have to use it all" - I'm trying to stamp out that kind of red herring. 04:41 Xiong What is cryptic? 04:42 ircSparky well, strincly speaking, divinity is "of, from, or like God or a god." 04:42 ircSparky ad god is "a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity." 04:43 Xiong Okay good. At least you're thinking straight. 04:43 ircSparky so god is a bit of a big word for a server owner, but they have the same abilities, regardless of if they decide to use them 04:43 Xiong I defined a local, internet tin god as a person who controls an online world. 04:44 Xiong It is *absolute power* which defines a god... not how he wields it. 04:44 IhrFussel So the president of a country is also a "god" ... Parents are "gods" in front of their underaged children 04:44 Xiong Actually "god" is a small, familiar word. Three letters. 04:45 Xiong No. Presidents lack absolute power. Trump is learning this... or not. 04:45 ircSparky ok this may be a weird, out of the blue question, but are you OldCoder? there are just some familiar characteristics im picking up 04:46 ircSparky and its bugging me :P 04:46 Xiong Very small children do indeed see their parents as gods. But we don't want to veer off into child development. 04:48 Xiong No I am not OC. I know him, been in convo with him. I think he's slightly deranged. I have been me for 20 years. 04:48 ircSparky ah, good to know you havent been someone else :P 04:49 Xiong I noticed early on that my name was often available so I used it... before it was fashionable. 04:49 ircSparky well carry on 04:50 Xiong I can't claim to be the only Xiong on the net. But I may well have been the first. No joke. 04:50 Xiong I am consistently Xiong wherever possible. I don't identity-hop. 04:52 Xiong Ah... I miswrote. I have been me a long time. But I have been me on the net pretty much since dial-up BBSs. 04:53 Xiong Haha, back before internet was a thing. 04:53 Xiong Never mind. 04:54 Xiong It is *absolute power* which defines a god... not how he wields it. Clear? 04:54 Xiong Not his personality or even whether he thinks he's a god. 04:55 ircSparky i dont agree with exact wording of "god" but yes, power is in the ability, not the use 04:55 Xiong Well, why not? 04:55 ircSparky god refers to humans and nature, not users and blocks 04:56 Xiong Gods are gods. No other word in the Engligh language exists to define that sort of entity... except straight synonyms and euphemisms. 04:57 Xiong Well I object to "user" as well. People are people. 04:58 ircSparky though the server owners can only affect the people as long as they are in their domain 04:58 Xiong That's a tree. That's a rock. That's a dog. That's a man. That's a god. 04:58 Xiong Yes. 04:58 ircSparky does this matter much for your point? 04:59 Xiong So I qualify, as needed: tin god. Petty local god. 04:59 Xiong It is essential. 04:59 ircSparky continue, then 05:00 Xiong No sorry. Bring out your objections to what I consider plain speech snd obvious fact. 05:02 Xiong If I create a world and invite people to live in it, spend time there, invest in building what we all call homes and farms... and I retain the power to destroy any part or all at any moment... then I am, within that toy world and for those... projected shadow people... the local god. 05:03 Xiong I am, in such case, creator and destroyer, slphs 05:04 Xiong ... Alpha and omega. What more do you want? 05:04 Xiong I don't see how anyone can object to this statement. 05:05 ircSparky I think its a minor objection from a slight misuse of a word 05:05 ircSparky that is, a big word scaled down to something nearly insignificant in comparison 05:05 Xiong The use is entirely apposite. How not?? 05:06 ircSparky but I think our intended definitions are the same 05:06 ircSparky so i would aks you continue with your point 05:06 Xiong Second time you called "god" a big word. What's a small one? 05:06 Xiong This *is* my point. Obviously. 05:06 ircSparky ok so your point is server owners are gods? 05:06 ircSparky tiny gods? 05:06 Xiong Dance dance dance. 05:07 ircSparky yes? 05:07 Xiong How often have I said this? This is the lemma. 05:07 ircSparky ok, anything else to add? 05:08 Xiong What do you mean add? You accept or not? 05:08 Xiong Not a misuse of a big word. The correct use of a small word. 05:09 Xiong If you control a world eith absolute power than you are its god. 05:10 ircSparky I still have the wording objection 05:10 ircSparky but say i agreed with the use of "god" 05:10 ircSparky what is the point? 05:10 Xiong Not king. Not dictator. You may outlive the world but the world will not outluve you. 05:10 Xiong Your statements are inconsistent. 05:10 Xiong Agree or object. 05:11 ircSparky I object with the use of the word "god" because it refers to humans and nature, not users and blocks 05:11 Xiong People often think I'm a fool because I say exactly what I mean as shortly as possible. I'm not. 05:12 Xiong What is a user? What blick? 05:12 Xiong ... Block? 05:12 Xiong L 05:12 Xiong Why? 05:13 ircSparky a user is a person using a computer to connect to a game server of their own free will 05:13 Xiong Endless... pettyfogging. 05:13 Xiong "a user is a person" 05:13 Xiong "I object with the use of the word "god" because it refers to humans... " 05:14 ircSparky yes, i said earlier 05:15 Xiong Are people humans? Yes. Did I stop being a person when I became a "user"? A lot of programmers seem to think so. Do you? 05:15 ircSparky a server owner does not have control over your human state, but he does control whether you are a user or not 05:16 Xiong That's not your stated objection. 05:16 ircSparky it is? I think its besides the point 05:16 Xiong I object with the use of the word "god" because it refers to humans and nature, not users and blocks. 05:16 ircSparky as well 05:17 ircSparky yes 05:17 Xiong But now you agree users are humans? 05:17 ircSparky yes, but gods can affect humans, while owners only affeect users 05:18 ircSparky as gods 05:18 ircSparky as a supreme power 05:18 ircSparky I can affect people by talking to them 05:18 Xiong If I am a user I am a human. 05:18 ircSparky that does not mean i have supreme power over them 05:18 Xiong Affect isn't in the book. 05:19 Xiong You objected with specific words. 05:19 ircSparky it shouldnt affect the point 05:19 Xiong I object with the use of the word "god" because it refers to humans and nature, not users and blocks. 05:19 Xiong Users are humans. 05:20 ircSparky gods have supreme power over humans 05:20 ircSparky as a whole 05:20 ircSparky to server owners have the same supreme power over humans, as a whole? 05:20 ircSparky as gods do? 05:20 Xiong You can see where this is going and you can concede. Then you can raise a fresh objection. You can't evade. 05:21 Xiong Your statement is bunk, I say with all respect. 05:21 ircSparky meh, it seems to be you are trying to take a powerful word, size it down to fit the definition of a server owner, then use its linguistic power to convey an emotional point 05:21 Xiong Please stop sliding away. You picked your spot. 05:22 ircSparky the text above is why i refuse to use the word 05:22 Xiong What I do with a tool doesn't affect its heft. 05:22 ircSparky I'd say try to find a real argument rather than a linguistic trick 05:23 Xiong You just wrote that if you concede my lemma you must concede my thesis. 05:23 ircSparky at any rate, it is almost midnight here 05:23 ircSparky i did? 05:23 Xiong Ah yes. You can't win, you won't concede, you quit. 05:24 Xiong Great debate. 05:24 ircSparky thanks 05:24 ircSparky not sure what it accomplished though 05:24 ircSparky have a good one 05:25 Xiong Your professor is trying to decide between a D and a serious talk about your future as a humanities major. 05:25 ircSparky you seem alright with my point about you not using logic, but rather a trick 05:25 ircSparky What I do with a tool doesn't affect its heft. 05:25 Xiong It accomplished nothing except to show you ought not to shame yourself trying to argue rationally. 05:25 ircSparky but i disagree 05:26 ircSparky ok 05:26 Xiong I have been strictly and ruthlessly logical. You expect an out. There isn't one. 05:27 Xiong Name another entity with absolute power in his domain. If another word will serve I'll happily use it. 05:28 Xiong Not a made-up bit of fluff. A word. You don't like my choice, you must hsve an alternative. 05:29 Xiong A supreme being. Creator and destroyer. What is that thing? 05:32 Xiong Does the concept simply have no name? In all history, have no men ever created little pocket universes? Did no men ever live under the wrath and mercy of such absolutes? Did they then go nameless? 05:34 Xiong I've wasted my time. Pearls before swine. 05:54 Xiong *shrug* Those who have difficulty in rational debate over ethics are unlikely to make rational decisions on ethical questions. Which was not my thesis... which was that server admins ought to make better ethical decisions. 06:00 sofar if you need the urge to discuss server admin ethics, you're not administrating your server correctly, or better, you probably shouldn't at all. 09:49 paramat protection is relevant. vanessa correctly explained yesterday http://irc.minetest.net/minetest/2019-01-11#i_5477940 16:52 to 17:04 sums this up. it seems the server admin are incompetant if they disable protection underground without warning players about this. this is the actual issue here, not the collapse of server morality (there often isn't any). please try listening to people who are trying to help you 09:52 oiaohm Xiong: dungens in D&D, MUD and other games is basically little pocket universes. 09:55 oiaohm Really I would love the ablity to portal between a collected group of servers. Then have servers be able to be respawn when players are not in them. 13:55 jas_ me too 14:25 Swedneck Is it possible to use texturepacks in a way where they inherit textures from other texture packs like in minecraft? 14:30 Krock maybe if you use nested texture packs 14:30 Krock i.e. textures inside sub-directories of your texture pack 14:30 Krock might only work in 5.0-dev though 14:31 Swedneck hmm 14:31 Swedneck gonna check if there's an issue open for it, because it's a really nice thing to have 14:32 Swedneck it lets you mix and match texturepacks, using ones with support for many mods as a fallback for ones without much support 14:34 Krock there was a PR at some point I believe 14:35 * Swedneck wishes he had the mind for programming so he could use all his spare time to just implement things he wants 14:50 Swedneck not sure how much of the issue template is needed for a feature request, i doubt hardware is relevant.. 14:53 rubenwardy there was already a feature request, pretty sure it was closed 14:53 jas_ lol 14:54 Swedneck link? 14:55 rubenwardy cba 14:55 Swedneck thanks 14:55 rubenwardy something like stacked or layered texture packs 14:55 * rubenwardy gets back to revising 14:55 jas_ #3832 14:55 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3832 -- Layered/Cascaded Texture Packs 14:56 Swedneck actual thanks 14:56 jas_ actual welcome 14:56 jas_ i just typed what ruben said, well first i tried cascade but it was two wrong issues, then i tried layered, and voila 14:56 jas_ or is it et voila, i dunno french 14:57 Swedneck sooo, i guess it's just not going to happen? 14:57 jas_ but it was closed for #6412 ? 14:57 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6412 -- [2nd] Load textures from the subfolders in texturepacks by numberZero 14:57 jas_ "won't add" paramat labeled, and says that one ^ does the trick 14:57 Swedneck great, lovely 14:58 jas_ so 14:58 jas_ test it in current head 14:58 jas_ if you're on windows, i recommend sfan5's builds, or gitlab.com/minetest/minetest/pipelines <- it has binaries, but ithink not luajit? 14:59 Swedneck So with that PR, you can put a texturepack inside another texturepack to achieve what i'm looking for? 14:59 jas_ no i think it was merged? or not? let me see, that's why i wanted u to test current minetest 15:00 jas_ to see if it was in there, haha, i will try and tell 15:00 jas_ https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/05d93c7fa1be9245dd5211b7dc1bdf0961b39eea 15:00 Swedneck i'm on linux btw 15:00 jas_ i think it's in, but read the comments i didn't -- something something only partially covered the feature request? i didn't read it sorry, but if you test and find it doesn't address the request 15:01 jas_ then, you know 15:01 jas_ something, something 15:01 Swedneck well it definitely doesn't fully address it, as i want a UI for it 15:02 jas_ i just `apt build-dep minetest` and then `git clone git://github.com/minetest/minetest.git` and don't forget the game, and then cmake . -DRUN_IN_PLACE=1 (or not) and make. i stopped doing the make install bit, cause it seems like extra work 15:02 jas_ oh 15:02 Swedneck but if what this does is let you just put a texturepack inside another texturepack, and have it use both with one of them overriding textures in the other, then i'll just open an issue for adding a UI to do it from the menu 15:02 jas_ so at least comment? 15:02 jas_ yeah, good to know something got in, i didn't even know about that 15:17 MinetestBot 02[git] 04osjc -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix fake LINT check success (#8092) 1303cc93f https://git.io/fhnCB (152019-01-12T15:15:42Z) 15:59 MinetestBot 02[git] 04osjc -> 03minetest/minetest: Optimize path finalization in pathfinder (#8100) 135a00b11 https://git.io/fhnWE (152019-01-12T15:57:26Z) 16:24 dogetest Is it possible to use http api within client lua api? 16:25 Krock yes, but you'll need the insecure mod env: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L4478 16:27 Krock actually not the entire mod env, just for this specific function 17:36 ircSparky does anyone know the exact camera position relative to wield node meshes? 17:37 ircSparky well, before its affected my user pitch 17:37 ircSparky by* 17:38 ircSparky meh, thats dosnt make much sense 17:38 ircSparky I want to know where i can put the camera in blender that will be an accurate representation of where the mesh will be when ingame as a mesh node in your hand 17:39 ircSparky im lining up a screenshot atm 17:42 ircSparky its not accurate enough for doing precise things such as aiming down sights 17:45 Ruslan1 Hello 17:47 ircSparky hi 18:02 ircSparky wlel i gtg, but this is what i've ended up with 18:02 ircSparky https://youtu.be/KDjWnz-iwl8 18:03 rubenwardy nice! 18:03 rubenwardy ANAND ^ 18:07 ANAND Wow! 18:07 ANAND Very nice! 18:08 rubenwardy ANAND is hopefully making a new guns mod for ctf ;) 18:08 ANAND ircSparky: How'd you manage to do that? 18:12 ircSparky the mesh part is wuite similar to newhands 18:12 ircSparky a node with mesh drawtype 18:13 ircSparky and if you look closely, the can see that i have two different nodes, one fop hip firing, and one doe aiming down sights 18:13 ANAND Interesting 18:14 ircSparky the model i made a while back for kaeza, i think he has a similar idea 18:14 ircSparky had* i should maybe say 18:15 ircSparky hes pretty busy 18:15 ircSparky i think 18:15 rubenwardy firearms had such nice potential, shame it was so buggy 18:19 ircSparky if anyone has any knowdlege of the offset of the camera and wielditem, or know of any way to animate or change the default punching, comment on the vid or pm me