IRC log for #minetest, 2019-01-11

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13:54	majochup	hi
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14:55	majochup	( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
14:55	rubenwardy	...
14:56	majochup	?
14:57	majochup	its just a fun face rubenwardy
15:02	ircSparky	should server channels have two ##?
15:02	rubenwardy	yes
15:02	rubenwardy	# = an open source project
15:02	rubenwardy	## = anything else
15:03	rubenwardy	also, Freenode technically isn't for server channel bridges
15:03	majochup	but doesnt CTF have that too?
15:03	rubenwardy	sssh :)
15:04	majochup	lol
15:04	Xiong	There's too much brutality.
15:04	majochup	so can ircsparky do it? :P
15:05	benrob0329	rubenwardy: but what if a server is an open source project? :P
15:05	majochup	lol
15:05	rubenwardy	not sure about that
15:05	rubenwardy	it rarely is
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15:06	majochup	and what if some one does a channel like #NAME and its about a minetest SERVER
15:06	ircSparky	fbi OPEN UP
15:06	rubenwardy	https://freenode.net/policies
15:06	Xiong	The #-## distinction is rarely enforced.
15:06	rubenwardy	^
15:07	rubenwardy	# runs the risk of being claimed by a project
15:07	rubenwardy	say you have a social channel called #discourse
15:07	rubenwardy	and then the forum software discourse is created, and then wants an IRC channel
15:07	Xiong	It took years... about a decade iirc... to rename #math to ##math.
15:07	majochup	ok
15:08	rubenwardy	they could probably claim #discourse, as it's not on-topic
15:08	benrob0329	someone has already claimed ##minetest
15:08	benrob0329	in 2011, and let it die without releasing it
15:08	benrob0329	nice
15:08	Xiong	I'm tired of fighting.
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15:10	Xiong	I fight way way too much IRL. I play to do sth else... sth peaceful and oleasant.
15:10	majochup	hi
15:10	majochup	same Xiong
15:11	majochup	too much irl fighting... lol
15:11	Xiong	Well I'm smoking.
15:11	majochup	...
15:11	majochup	.-.
15:12	Xiong	Logged in to find true weirdness... on server less than two weeks and I already have a dangerous enemy.
15:13	Xiong	Not funny. Resourceful, able, and with an axe to grind.
15:14	Xiong	So I just wasted... great gravy... three hours trying to explain this to admin. Who basically seems to feel that violent anarchy is okay.
15:15	ircSparky	the two ## things?
15:15	Xiong	All sorts of pointless side trips to get here... because he couldn't just say "We like war".
15:16	ircSparky	:P
15:16	majochup	sparky
15:16	majochup	i cant PM you on freenode
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15:16	Xiong	What ircSparky?
15:16	majochup	hi
15:16	Xiong	Hi!
15:16	ircSparky	yea
15:17	ircSparky	what's his name? BillyS?
15:17	majochup	whos name?
15:18	Xiong	Sorry I'm not sure I haven't butted in.I'm very upset.
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15:18	ircSparky	ok
15:21	Xiong	I'm an adult. If someone in a game says "let's fight" I don't take offense.
15:22	ircSparky	in my experience when someone says that to me its because we're both bored and want to 1v1 :P
15:23	Xiong	But when something is advertised as a constructive, cooperative game flips into war and the boss says oh yeh that's cool too... I feel abused.
15:23	majochup	yep
15:23	majochup	luckily sparky isnt like that :D
15:25	Xiong	I hate my life. I have failed IRL and that's bad. But I've failed at MT, too. Someone kill me pls.
15:27	* majochup	thinks
15:27	majochup	Xiong
15:27	majochup	nah CENSORED BY HOLY_BONGOCAT INC lol jk
15:28	ircSparky	hey man it's all good
15:28	ircSparky	someone being a dickhead isnt your fault
15:28	Xiong	I've spent my life trying to develop and follow decent principles of respect, honesty, industry, and friendliness and compassion toward others. And all I've gotten is nods and yehs and they pee in the cole slaw
15:29	majochup	yep
15:29	majochup	like person is in here so i wont say names
15:29	ircSparky	so what server is this? sounds like a factions pvp server or somehting
15:31	Xiong	I live in squalid poverty while Trump openly sneers at everything decent folk know. And he doesn't even care if he's president... he can afford not to work. He'll be furious if impeacehed... and enjoy every moment, raving and cursing, and tell the story until he dies, laughing his ass off.
15:32	Xiong	That lunatic lives like an emperor. I live like a rat under a boot.
15:33	Swedneck	is this really on topic?
15:33	Xiong	I don't think it helpful to name, to out people. YMMV.
15:34	majochup	Xiong i feel like ketchup :)
15:35	Xiong	Well Swedneck as the last dozen people said who insulted me when I was steering straight down the middle of the topic... dunno I care.
15:36	Swedneck	not sure what that means, but this is #minetest, not #politics
15:36	Swedneck	but oh well i'm not a moderator
15:36	Xiong	There should at least be constructive servers. I don't mean creative mode; sorry I don't respect that. No challenge.
15:37	Xiong	Swedneck my blather isn't politics it's self-pity and bathos.
15:38	Swedneck	...which still isn't very relevant to minetest
15:38	Xiong	You noticed!
15:39	Xiong	The first principle of running a constructive server is defending the world. Boring nasty job. What I see, over and again, is the local god abandoning his throne to play mortal and build brass palaces
15:40	Xiong	While the boss is doing the work players should do... the players are left to fend off the wreckers alone. Helluva way to run a world. I guess they learned by example.
15:42	Swedneck	i have no clue what you're talking about lol
15:42	Xiong	Well when did you start reading?
15:43	Xiong	I am a pretty decent fellow; I'll catch you up.
15:43	Xiong	From the start? You tell me.
15:44	Xiong	0736 <Xiong> There should at least be constructive servers.
15:44	Swedneck	from the start
15:44	Xiong	That enough?
15:44	Xiong	Okay.
15:46	Xiong	I just wasted two weeks on a server, advertised as constructive, working hard, trying to be a friend to my neighbors. But for reasons unclear I have made an unknown and deadly enemy, smart, resourceful, and vicious. I don't even think he's a regular player, just a wandering vandal. But admin shrugs.
15:49	Xiong	Apparently I wasted my time planting flowers and trying to help players like the six year old girl who just wants to ride her bike... and plant flowers. I ought to have been building a fort out of blastproof concrete and digging lava moats roofed in trapstone.
15:49	Xiong	So yeh, I'm upset.
15:49	ircSparky	is that Persistent Kingdoms?
15:50	Xiong	No.
15:50	ircSparky	ok
15:50	ircSparky	does the 6 y/o girl think that time was wasted?
15:50	Xiong	But he's not the only such boss. I curse the class, not one man.
15:51	Xiong	I have no idea. I think her typing skills are limited to "hi" and "ok".
15:51	Swedneck	ah right, that sucks
15:53	Xiong	If this was the only such experience I'd shrug it off. But my point is that I've spent my real life the same way... trying to be decent and getting peed on. I don't enjoy it. I'd prefer another life, at least ingame.
15:54	ircSparky	what kind of server would you like?
15:54	Xiong	Well I said: constructive.
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15:56	Xiong	Cooperative play, not "creative mode"; and a boss who puts his efforts into existential threats. Not puttering around.
15:56	Swedneck	I think friendly is a better term
15:57	ircSparky	what stuff do you like to do?
15:57	Xiong	I prefer "constructive" because constructing good things is, for me, friendly.
15:57	ircSparky	i have a citysim server
15:59	Xiong	Well I spent time expanding farms, reclaiming land, planting trees. I'm not terribly adventurous but I'll scout a long way to find plants and bring back.
15:59	ircSparky	do you think you'd like being police?
16:04	Xiong	I do build structures but I don't aim for squat blockhouses. The first structure I ever built was a classic Renaissance
16:04	Xiong	theater, with heaven, hell, castle, period-small stage... sweeping staircase, fountain, and bar below. Added, presumably, at a later and more decadent date.
16:04	Xiong	That was my first attempt at anything in MT.
16:06	Xiong	I called it the Greek Theater... not because it was one or resembled one; but because the men who built such things called them that.
16:07	Xiong	My... erm former current project... was a mashup of Middle Eastern and Soviet influences. Much desert stone.
16:08	Xiong	Think Kremlin in Istsnbul.
16:08	Xiong	Istanbul!
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16:09	Xiong	ircSparky I can think of no task than police that I would like less.
16:09	Xiong	Rather village idiot.
16:10	ircSparky	lol
16:10	majochup	lol
16:11	Xiong	I respect police IRL, for all that they have feet of clay and an unfortunate habit of shooting at citizens. But as imperfect humans they do get up and go to work a very difficult job, with few real rewards.
16:13	Xiong	Before anyone runs around singing FTP, I'd ask what life would be like with no police at all.
16:15	VanessaE	1920 Chicago, more or less
16:16	Xiong	Once... here in San Francisco... I called to report I'd been assaulted... battered by a weapon to be more precise... by the lunatic methhead next door. Four hours and the beat supervisor showed. "I got four cops for the whole Mission District on Saturday night. We can't even keep up with shots-fired."
16:18	Xiong	So yes thank you sergeant and no thank you ircSparky. Do not want the job.
16:18	Xiong	VanessaE Hi!
16:19	ircSparky	yea San Fransico got it hard
16:19	Xiong	What do you think? Why is this so tolerated, server after server turned into a disorganized huddle of fortified bunkers?
16:20	Xiong	Why is security so bad?
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16:20	ircSparky	are the servers supposed to be pvp?
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16:21	majochup	xerox123 why do u have 2 accounts?
16:21	majochup	i mean IRC accounts
16:21	Xiong	Granted there's a tradeoff between keeping the doors open for new honest players and defending against these... serial home invaders and arsonists.
16:22	Xiong	Which servers ircSparky?
16:23	Xiong	Obviously some servers are PvP.
16:23	ircSparky	the ones you are talking about?
16:23	xerox123	majochup: one's for my phone, and I hate it when my ZNC playbacks merge
16:23	Xiong	The roving delinquents sometimes kill players but they also destroy and steal.
16:23	ircSparky	most servers have protection blocks that dont allows people to destroy
16:24	Xiong	I'm not talking about servers so much as threats... and our inability to cope.
16:25	Xiong	Not all bad actions are wrecking. There are several flavors. Also there are ways to defeat popular protection schemes.
16:25	ircSparky	well, if a server isnot meant to be pvp, one can easily make a mod that only lets people who want to pvp get damaged, or disable it entirely
16:26	ircSparky	and have protection blocks or areas to prevent griefing
16:26	ircSparky	as well as trustworthy moderators to enforce the other server rules
16:27	Xiong	One can easily do x, y, and z. But all together seems to be an overwhelming task. And the attacks range from crude to sophisticated. There are hacked clients.
16:27	VanessaE	sorry, had to step out. Xiong, my opinion? it comes with the territory. online gaming attracts bad actors. simple as that.
16:27	Xiong	No surprise VE.
16:28	VanessaE	at least my servers are well-managed, most of the time anyway :)
16:28	Xiong	But... a bank attracts robbers. They invest in good security.
16:29	Xiong	I avoid all-or-nothing thinking. We cannot have perfect security and all security comes at a cost. But rape and pillage should not be daily incidents.
16:29	VanessaE	yeah but a bank is a different matter - you can't just hack your way through the vault door (well, not usually)
16:30	Xiong	Right. And MT should, I think, be less vulnerable than it is.
16:30	VanessaE	"rape and pillage" are best managed with clear rules and a no-tolerance policy - play nice or fuck off to ban land.
16:31	ircSparky	yea what servers are you playing on?
16:31	ircSparky	my server only has one guy that causes major trouble
16:31	ircSparky	and evades bans
16:31	VanessaE	as for "hacked" clients, they only do things the player could do anyway, except faster. fly and noclip aside.
16:31	Xiong	Ah, but the damage is done. There are enough bad actors banging around to make life unpleasant, even if you ban every nick and ip you see.
16:31	VanessaE	and there's nothing that can really be done to defend against that.
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16:32	Xiong	Fly and no clip is bad enough, no?
16:32	ircSparky	there is anticheat
16:32	VanessaE	they're bad, but there's nothing the server can really do, in a performant way, to make those not a problem
16:32	ircSparky	but yea if you have any servers that you'd like specific advice for, i could probably help
16:33	Xiong	Look I'll stop right here. I see a very bad problem and I say it needs work. No point fixing anything else if a teen with angst and too much free time can wreck it... and there are dozens of them.
16:34	VanessaE	Xiong: point is it can't be fixed.
16:34	VanessaE	not right now anyway
16:34	Xiong	ircSparky I don't mean to be insulting but why are we talking at cross purposes?
16:34	Xiong	Yes, rightnow.
16:34	rubenwardy	noclip and fly can be fixed with a lot of non-trivial engine changes
16:35	rubenwardy	currently movement is client-side, and that's the problem
16:35	VanessaE	unless you can come up with a sub-millisecond-precision network protocol that is impervious to lag
16:35	ircSparky	idk what you mean Xiong
16:35	Xiong	Nothing really has a higher priority than building a friendly, open community.
16:35	rubenwardy	VanessaE: this is a solved problem
16:36	rubenwardy	client-side prediction, server-side reconcilliation
16:36	VanessaE	rubenwardy: not in 0.4.x it isn't :P
16:36	rubenwardy	a "solved problem" means that the computer science field already has many solutions available
16:36	VanessaE	right
16:36	Xiong	Yes well I'm running the 5.0.0 and it's the same old war.
16:36	rubenwardy	it doesn't mean that a particular application implements any of them
16:37	* VanessaE	shrugsa
16:37	* VanessaE	shrugs, too.
16:37	Xiong	Better security doesn't mean perfect security!
16:38	ircSparky	but it does mean better
16:38	ircSparky	and a better experience
16:38	Xiong	I'm making an impassioned yet sober appeal for less involuntary brutality.
16:38	ircSparky	to who
16:39	Xiong	To you. To myself. To anyone who listens. Perhaps more, to those who don't.
16:40	majochup	k
16:40	Swedneck	the solution seems pretty simple to me: find or start a server with a good community and admins/mods that care
16:41	Xiong	I don't want a splinter in my palm every time I pick up.a broom. Life is life and there will be splinters. But the broomstick can be sanded.
16:41	Xiong	Simple solution, of course. Why didn't I think of that? I must be a fool and an idiot.
16:42	VanessaE	Swedneck: the problem is, to encourage that, you need good rules, too. but rules drive people away, and having too few people makes for a boring server.
16:43	Xiong	"I'm broke and starving." -- "Go get some money and buy food. Simple solution!"
16:43	ircSparky	ok i will be less involentarily brutal
16:43	ircSparky	ttyl
16:43	Swedneck	i don't think rules drive people away, as long as they're not the length of an average EULA, and very clear
16:43	Xiong	I do not agree rules are a solution.
16:44	Swedneck	err, it's not that hard to start your own server
16:45	VanessaE	Swedneck: then maybe you can explain why my servers don't even make the top 10 in the list, despite having good admins, good mod selection, nice builds, and relatively few rules
16:45	Xiong	Bad actors don't care they're breaking rules... rather, they glory in it. Ban them, they just move on... or move to another ip and come back to do it again.
16:45	majochup	VanessaE: is there a top 10 best MT server list?
16:45	VanessaE	majochup: http://servers.minetest.net/
16:46	VanessaE	not a top 10 but trivial to see who's there
16:46	Xiong	VanessaE not sure you mean the server list built into the client? How is that sorted?
16:46	VanessaE	Xiong: that ^^^ link, which the in-game list is derived from
16:47	VanessaE	the sorting algorithm is complex
16:47	Xiong	Well I've time.
16:48	VanessaE	takes a bunch of stuff into account like player count, server age, lag, and more.
16:48	Xiong	You said you weren't near top. Must not sort on quality.
16:48	VanessaE	it does not.
16:49	Xiong	Well then, rank on such a list... meaningless.
16:50	Xiong	Not sure a point score based on "likes" would be much better. One man's trash another's treasure.
16:50	VanessaE	it matters because if your server isn't on that all-important first page, it may as well not exist./
16:50	VanessaE	because users don't seem to know how to scroll and read
16:52	Xiong	VanessaE how many times per week is someone on your (survival mode) server attacked, vandalized, cheated, or otherwise upset and outraged over something concrete? Not just gimmee-cry.
16:53	VanessaE	perhaps once a month I get some report like that
16:53	VanessaE	and it's always someone who didn't bother to protect their structure.
16:53	Xiong	Well that's better than what I got.
16:53	VanessaE	the offender is checked-out, banned.
16:53	Xiong	Aha!
16:54	Xiong	And how much time and (time to generate resources) should I spend protecting what's mine?
16:55	VanessaE	it only takes seconds to place a protection block
16:55	VanessaE	less than a minute to use `areas` mod commands.
16:55	VanessaE	once done, griefing is unlikely to happen.
16:55	VanessaE	it's not like you have to hire site security or something
16:57	Xiong	To give you an idea... I put my ground-level elevator behind two layers of steel doors with obfuscation between... obfuscated all paths to underground stops... and elaborated the whole with tells and misdirection. The attacker glitched through all and dug a kilometer-deep deathtrap for me. Me personally!
16:58	VanessaE	no protection blocks/commands?
16:59	Xiong	I thought I'd been paranoid. I was ashamed of myself for building so much antisocial junk
16:59	Xiong	What?
16:59	Xiong	Everything protected. Land grab.
16:59	VanessaE	obviously not.
16:59	VanessaE	protection blocks or areas commands cause the engine to prevent non-owner place/dig actions entirely, no matter how hacked their client is.
16:59	Xiong	Obviously yes.
17:00	Xiong	No protection deep underground.
17:00	VanessaE	why not?
17:00	Xiong	Dunno. Ask boss.
17:00	VanessaE	protection blocks/commands are not usually limited to just the surface
17:01	Xiong	Not the point. Attacker glitched through my fully protected surface lab doors.
17:01	VanessaE	you're not listening.
17:02	Xiong	No; you have a point unrelated to my point.
17:02	VanessaE	an attacker may be able to "glitch" through a protected wall, but protection features mean that wall would still remain, and that floor would not remain dug up, let alone be a kilometer deep
17:02	Xiong	I read very quickly and type very slowly... with one finger on my phone.
17:02	VanessaE	which in turn means "the boss" whoever he is, is an idiot.
17:03	VanessaE	for using unreliable protection mods.
17:03	majochup	hi
17:03	Xiong	The hole starts at -1200 and goes to about -2400.
17:03	VanessaE	so?
17:04	Xiong	So that has nothing to do with somebody in my elevators.
17:04	* VanessaE	wanders off
17:04	Xiong	Nobody should be in my elevators but me unless I make them public.
17:05	Xiong	Sorry my concerns don't concern you.
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17:07	Xiong	I do not want to spend my play time stuffing claim blocks all over creation. That eventually leads to overclaiming and a world where a newcomer can't find a meter of dirt to sleep on... just like IRL.
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17:10	Xiong	I want to see less paranoid bunker-building, more social structures, common areas, public resources. More joy, less throat-cutting. Less play time wasted scheming how to hang onto a box of rocks.
17:12	freudolacaniano	Hi, how are you? I have problems installing mods, I just can't! I'm running 0.4.16 on Linux Mint 19.1
17:13	Xiong	Nobody should even be able to dig a kilometer-deep hole without any care. That's a hazard no matter how it's done.
17:13	Xiong	freudolacaniano do tell.
17:13	freudolacaniano	When I put mods on the corresponding place, it shouts "Error"
17:13	freudolacaniano	In the console
17:14	Xiong	Probably not. But let me step you through it.
17:14	Swedneck	~/.minetest/mods, correct?
17:15	Swedneck	and are you putting archives or normal folders in there?
17:15	freudolacaniano	usr/share/games/.minetest/mods
17:15	Xiong	Can you run the package in singleplayer right after install?
17:15	freudolacaniano	There I'm decompressing the zips packages
17:15	Xiong	Okay Swedneck you do it.
17:15	Swedneck	try putting the mods in ~/.minetest/mods instead
17:16	Xiong	freudolacaniano if you get the help you want, great. If not, ask me again
17:16	freudolacaniano	Well, let's see
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17:17	Ruslan1	Hello
17:17	Krock	hi
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17:21	freudolacaniano	Should I rename the folders when I unzip it?
17:22	majochup	idk
17:22	Swedneck	only if they have dashes or other not allowed characters
17:22	majochup	freudolacaniona: if it has something with opener or so in i
17:22	majochup	it*
17:23	Swedneck	ideally they should be archived in such a way that they have the correct name when extracted
17:23	freudolacaniano	Thanks!
17:23	majochup	or manager that should be removed
17:23	majochup	yw :)
17:23	Swedneck	for example most of the time if it's named something like "minetest-technic" then just remove "minetest-"
17:25	freudolacaniano	Thank you everyone! It worked perfectly, I was just putting the mods on the wrong folder (usr/share/games/.minetest instead of myname/.minetest) and also was not naming correctly the folders.
17:26	majochup	your welcome :P
17:26	Swedneck	:D
17:26	Swedneck	also keep in mind that you have to enable mods per-world
17:26	Swedneck	and that some mods have dependencies, which you will need to download and enable.
17:27	Swedneck	however in the next minetest release this is all going to be made much simpler, with the client handling mods for you
17:27	Swedneck	see https://content.minetest.net
17:30	Krock	Swedneck: renaming them is no longer needed (since ~0.4.15) if the mod contains a "mod.conf" file inside
17:31	Krock	that will correct the mod name automatically
17:31	Swedneck	90% of the time minetest complained about them having illegal characters in the name, for me
17:31	Swedneck	until i changed the directory name
17:31	Krock	so 90% of your mods are old
17:32	Krock	you don't need to rename them if you clone the mods directly from git* btw
17:32	Krock	unless the mod author decided to name their mod "minetest-mymodname"
17:32	Swedneck	https://gateway.swedneck.xyz/ipfs/QmWJsJio1saseDqnwDgYGjMc5cuggoGwVRqri1BckrZNbL/2019-01-11_18-32-32.png
17:33	Krock	waiting for connection...
17:33	Krock	looks about right
17:33	Swedneck	most of those were renamed, because minetest complained otherwise
17:33	Krock	naming does not matter for mesecons, plantlife and technic in this case; they're modpacks
17:35	Krock	uh.. storing images in ipfs? That's an interesting decision
17:35	Swedneck	how so
17:37	Krock	actually it's the ipfs' server owners problem if they want to store files which aren't interesting or up-to-date after a few weeks
17:38	Krock	if there's no "forget" function for unpopular/unlinked files then the amount of garbage will quickly take more space than the actual interesting files
17:38	Swedneck	which would be me, since it's served from my desktop and server
17:38	Krock	isn't it connected to an outside upfs network?
17:38	Krock	*ipfs
17:38	Swedneck	well yes, but only my nodes store the data
17:39	Krock	oh I see. that's a feature I wasn't aware of
17:39	Swedneck	you can ofc choose to pin it on your own node
17:40	Swedneck	getting a bit offtopic, but ipfs deduplicates any identical blocks of data in files, so if 2 screenshots are mostly the same then the second one will only take up as much extra space as is different from the first screenshot
17:43	Krock	a visual diff? wow
17:44	Swedneck	well it splits files into small chunks, and files in ipfs are just a list of hashes of those chunks
17:44	Swedneck	visit #ipfs and i can go more in depth
17:46	Krock	thanks for the pointer and the explanations, although I'm not interested enough to dig further into this topic.
17:46	Swedneck	sure thing
17:46	Krock	just trying to get an overview, as a rough knowledge of what it offers
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18:30	Xiong	Well philosophy aside... I am running prerelease 5.0.0 with good results. I'll take suggestions for servers: survival mode, v7, no PvP, no "far". I want to see UI and a broad selection of interesting mods... probably rather see moretrees than technic but interesting is better than any particular item. I like autocrafters, anvils, and shears. No mobs! All of this is less than a server run on principles of conduct that improve on
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18:46	CWz	issue with software manager: https://i.postimg.cc/g2cR78MB/Screenshot-at-2019-01-11-20-44-48.png
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18:52	rubenwardy	which one?
18:56	CWz	Ubuntu Mate
18:56	CWz	but i am using the official ppa
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20:18	IhrFussel	Xiong, "no mobs" already invalidates 90% of survival servers alone... what is a survival server without hostile creatures?
20:19	IhrFussel	Additionally no PvP so no PvP survival either... are you looking for a survival simulation rather than a real survival game? Only hunger/thirst/stamina/health matters?
20:22	IhrFussel	On my server PvP is per-player and ve be toggled anytime via /pvp or with the window that asks you after you join ... but it has mobs... over 30 different types of mobs with different skins, different strengths, different ratings (so that one mob can be different from another even if it's the same species) ... I think that makes for a very exciting gameplay
20:22	IhrFussel	and can*
20:23	IhrFussel	Players who don't like monsters can protect a HUGE area somewhere and no monsters will spawn anywhere within that area ... each player has 10 protections for up to 128x96x128 in size
20:26	IhrFussel	But without mobs my server gets boring fast... even though there are other aspects like hunger ... and my level system also makes little sense if you never fight mobs cause the level system dtermines your damage and gives you a feel of progression
20:29	IhrFussel	You also have more HP with higher levels... I put quite a bit of work into an ugly hack that makes it possible to have more than 20 HP in 0.4.X versions cause usually you can't
20:35	IhrFussel	'far' is a persoal preference, I understand that you don't like it... it is enabled on my server cause you can see when someone gets hurt/heals cause the name tag will change and show their HP
20:35	IhrFussel	personal*
20:36	Krock	nice monologie
20:36	Krock	s/ie/ue/
20:38	IhrFussel	'interesting mods' is very subjective... even though I have 200 some simply don't want to play on my server cause I'm missing 'technic' and 'pipeworks'
20:40	IhrFussel	The distance between you and the server location might also be an important point to consider... it's not fun to play on a survival server with 200ms+ ping
20:41	IhrFussel	btw there are barely any 5.0.0 servers right now... and none of them has an active userbase last I checked... I recommend to just stick with 0.4.X servers for now
20:43	IhrFussel	And don't expect too many longterm servers to quickly upgrade when 5.0.0 releases... I certainly won't
20:44	Krock	IhrFussel: you're wrong. Creatively Survival has already quite a solid userbase
20:44	IhrFussel	Krock, I was just replying to what Xiong said earlier in this channel
20:44	Krock	sauce: playing on it sometimes
20:45	IhrFussel	The servers that run on 5.0.0-dev right now are no longterm servers that ran for years already AFAIK ... they are fresh, new servers that try to establish a new userbase
20:46	IhrFussel	Some of them just exist for testing
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20:47	Krock	they're not longterm servers. yet.
20:49	IhrFussel	When 5.0.0 releases there will be trouble... iOS users will still play on their 3rd-party app that only supports 0.4.X while most PC/Android users might switch to 5.0.0 and wonder why they can't play on their favorite servers anymore...it will be a mess
20:51	IhrFussel	And it's up to each server owner to decide when the right time is to upgrade ... maybe it could help when the core devs begin to distribute regular usage stats
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20:51	VanessaE	^ precisely why my servers will not move over to 5.0.0 right away
20:51	IhrFussel	"how many used 0.4.X this month and how many used 5.0.0"
20:52	majochup	hi :D
20:53	Krock	IhrFussel: bug 5fan5 for stats
20:53	IhrFussel	How is it planned for the play store? Will 5.0.0 just be a simple update? Or will it be a separate app?
20:54	rubenwardy	It'll be an update
20:54	IhrFussel	If it's just an update for every 0.4.X user then I see BIG problems incoming
20:55	IhrFussel	You should at least warn everyone in the app description that if they update they will NO longer be able to play on 0.4.X servers
20:56	IhrFussel	That might at least save the ones that disabled auto updates
20:56	Krock	dude, that's a week and the players moved
20:56	Krock	or wait for 5.1.0
20:56	Krock	and then for 5.2.0 to finally miss the train
20:57	IhrFussel	You don't get that many major servers will not upgrade after 1 week...I doubt that they will upgrade after 1 month either
20:58	IhrFussel	Did you ever compare the userbase in the server list to the amount of servers? It is somewhat already a huge competition between servers
20:58	Krock	you'd be surprised how fast this may change
20:58	IhrFussel	There is not even enough users to fill all servers even if they were split as "2 per server"
20:58	Krock	regarding your first statement
20:59	Krock	well yes, that's how it works. popular servers rise, others become unattractive.
21:00	IhrFussel	But if the userbase was larger then they were FORCED to also check out "unpopular" servers cause the top servers are already full
21:01	Krock	and more servers would spawn again
21:01	Krock	until they notice that there's no demand for it
21:02	IhrFussel	We talked LONG long ago about a possible solution ... paramat had the idea once to prioritize "quality servers"
21:03	IhrFussel	Not sure what his exact definition was but I'd guess servers that are well maintained and have a healthy userbase ... maybe he also wanted to include age, uptime and avg lag...not sure
21:04	IhrFussel	I think he also talked about be possibility of "rolling" through top servers
21:04	IhrFussel	the*
21:05	IhrFussel	So that not only the one with the highest score stays at the top ... cause the score system in the server list is rather random
21:06	IhrFussel	There are user waves where nobody has any idea where they come from... and if those waves target a server that was far down in the list, it jumps suddenly to the top
21:06	IhrFussel	And when the wave is over it falls again after some time
21:09	IhrFussel	Don't ask me why they sometimes flood servers with less people... I heard there are apps that require coins in order to "unlock" more servers ... and there are apps that "feature" always another server ... there are apps that require you to watch ADS to collect ingame currency to have access to more servers
21:11	IhrFussel	There are also ads that enable you to cheat on servers if you pay some money I think...cause I saw a mobile user who told me that they could walk faster and they actually COULD
21:11	IhrFussel	apps not ads*
21:12	IhrFussel	They walked a tad faster...it was not 'fast' speed ... more like 5-6 nodes/sec
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21:35	freudolacaniano	Hi, I need help again. I've installed mobs_redo,animals,horses and npc and they don't appear on the worlds I create. I active ALL MODS before I start playing. Can anyone help me?
21:36	freudolacaniano	My version is 0.4.16
21:44	IhrFussel	Check if the mods are really enabled
21:44	IhrFussel	Try /spawnentity mobs_animal:bunny
21:45	Krock	freudolacaniano: are the mods loaded? check /mods
21:47	freudolacaniano	I put /mods and mobs appear
21:49	freudolacaniano	Yes, animals appear
21:50	freudolacaniano	When I use the cmd
21:51	Krock	I had that issue too and just increased the spawn chance
21:52	Krock	they spawn, but very rarely.
21:53	freudolacaniano	How do I increase the spawn chance?
21:56	Krock	for horses: https://notabug.org/TenPlus1/mob_horse/src/master/init.lua#L151
21:56	Krock	chance = 10,
21:56	Krock	interval = 5,
21:58	freudolacaniano	Okay
21:59	freudolacaniano	I put the same numbers on the other animals?
22:03	IhrFussel	freudolacaniano, lower chance means "appears more often"
22:04	freudolacaniano	And interval?
22:04	IhrFussel	Seconds between the "chance" check
22:04	freudolacaniano	Thank you so much!! I downloaded the game yesterday, thank you all for being so patient!
22:05	IhrFussel	You shouldn't make it too low or else your map will be flooded with animals... I would suggest an interval of 15 ad chance of 5000
22:05	IhrFussel	Chance needs to be that high because it checks the chance for each block in a radius
22:06	freudolacaniano	Oh okay, thank you
22:06	IhrFussel	If animals only spawn on dirt_with_grass the chance can be a bit lower than when animals spawn on dirt and dirt with grass
22:07	IhrFussel	Generally make the chance higher based on nodes defined above the chance/interval
22:09	Krock	yes, roughly the same numbers to the other registered mobs
22:11	freudolacaniano	So, if I put chance 5000 and interval 15, every 15 seconds, there is a chance of 1/5000 that a mob spawn?
22:13	IhrFussel	Per node/block in a radius of active_block_range
22:13	IhrFussel	No wait
22:14	IhrFussel	It checks the chance per 15 seconds for each defined node inside the spawn registration that is within the radius of (16*3) nodes in each direction by default
22:15	IhrFussel	When the mob needs dirt and there is no dirt nothing will spawn
22:15	freudolacaniano	Okay
22:15	Krock	* 16^3, not 16*3
22:16	Krock	ABMs are performed per mapblock
22:16	freudolacaniano	Well, I put the chances between 3000 and 6000, I hope mobs now spawn.
22:16	IhrFussel	But it is 16*3 nodes in each direction
22:16	Krock	48 nodes? how so?
22:16	IhrFussel	active_block_range
22:17	IhrFussel	I though a value of 3 means 48 nodes in each direction
22:17	Krock	they could also be forceloaded
22:17	IhrFussel	Mobs only spawn within active_block_range
22:18	IhrFussel	Nothing gets forceloaded
22:18	IhrFussel	Let me check the exact range
22:20	IhrFussel	The mobs use a ABM to spawn and ABMs can only run within 48 nodes from the player...or not?
22:20	IhrFussel	By default
22:21	Krock	yes that's true. Additionally they will also spawn around mapblocks which are forceloaded by other mods
22:21	Krock	I wonder why mobs_redo isn't using LBMs yet
22:21	Krock	that would make mobs appear much quicker in-game
22:22	IhrFussel	freudolacaniano, if you want mobs to spawn from farther away you can increase the active_block_range setting (this might slow down your game a bit)
22:23	IhrFussel	Default view range is 100 I think... so at default settings the mobs will just pop in which might look ugly
22:23	freudolacaniano	Well, no. my pc is not so good, so I prefer to reduce the chance if I still don't see mobs
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22:24	IhrFussel	It's not about chance...I meant mobs will only spawn "close" to you and not far away...if this doesn't bother you all is fine
22:25	IhrFussel	You should also reduce your view range (- key) if your PC is old
22:25	Krock	Minetest will mainly require a strong single core CPU. for view range 100 it's fine to have a benchmark value of 2000+ (https://www.cpubenchmark.net/)
22:26	Krock	*strong single thread rating
22:26	Krock	well, the mobs will not spawn far away anyway
22:31	freudolacaniano	And I increase view range with +?
22:32	Krock	yep
22:32	Krock	or manually in the config file
22:35	freudolacaniano	I put 200 and still goes well
22:39	freudolacaniano	Thank you. I've started a game with a fractal map and it's very cool
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22:48	Krock	yay
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