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IRC log for #minetest, 2019-01-11

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13:54 majochup hi
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14:55 majochup ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
14:55 rubenwardy ...
14:56 majochup ?
14:57 majochup its just a fun face rubenwardy
15:02 ircSparky should server channels have two ##?
15:02 rubenwardy yes
15:02 rubenwardy # = an open source project
15:02 rubenwardy ## = anything else
15:03 rubenwardy also, Freenode technically isn't for server channel bridges
15:03 majochup but doesnt CTF have that too?
15:03 rubenwardy sssh :)
15:04 majochup lol
15:04 Xiong There's too much brutality.
15:04 majochup so can ircsparky do it? :P
15:05 benrob0329 rubenwardy: but what if a server is an open source project? :P
15:05 majochup lol
15:05 rubenwardy not sure about that
15:05 rubenwardy it rarely is
15:06 Gael-de-Sailly joined #minetest
15:06 majochup and what if some one does a channel like #NAME and its about a minetest SERVER
15:06 ircSparky fbi OPEN UP
15:06 rubenwardy https://freenode.net/policies
15:06 Xiong The #-## distinction is rarely enforced.
15:06 rubenwardy ^
15:07 rubenwardy # runs the risk of being claimed by a project
15:07 rubenwardy say you have a social channel called #discourse
15:07 rubenwardy and then the forum software discourse is created, and then wants an IRC channel
15:07 Xiong It took years... about a decade iirc... to rename #math to ##math.
15:07 majochup ok
15:08 rubenwardy they could probably claim #discourse, as it's not on-topic
15:08 benrob0329 someone has already claimed ##minetest
15:08 benrob0329 in 2011, and let it die without releasing it
15:08 benrob0329 nice
15:08 Xiong I'm tired of fighting.
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15:10 Xiong I fight way way too much IRL. I play to do sth else... sth peaceful and oleasant.
15:10 majochup hi
15:10 majochup same Xiong
15:11 majochup too much irl fighting... lol
15:11 Xiong Well I'm smoking.
15:11 majochup ...
15:11 majochup .-.
15:12 Xiong Logged in to find true weirdness... on server less than two weeks and I already have a dangerous enemy.
15:13 Xiong Not funny. Resourceful, able, and with an axe to grind.
15:14 Xiong So I just wasted... great gravy... three hours trying to explain this to admin. Who basically seems to feel that violent anarchy is okay.
15:15 ircSparky the two ## things?
15:15 Xiong All sorts of pointless side trips to get here... because he couldn't just say "We like war".
15:16 ircSparky :P
15:16 majochup sparky
15:16 majochup i cant PM you on freenode
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15:16 Xiong What ircSparky?
15:16 majochup hi
15:16 Xiong Hi!
15:16 ircSparky yea
15:17 ircSparky what's his name? BillyS?
15:17 majochup whos name?
15:18 Xiong Sorry I'm not sure I haven't butted in.I'm very upset.
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15:18 ircSparky ok
15:21 Xiong I'm an adult. If someone in a game says "let's fight" I don't take offense.
15:22 ircSparky in my experience when someone says that to me its because we're both bored and want to 1v1 :P
15:23 Xiong But when something is advertised as a constructive, cooperative game flips into war and the boss says oh yeh that's cool too... I feel abused.
15:23 majochup yep
15:23 majochup luckily sparky isnt like that :D
15:25 Xiong I hate my life. I have failed IRL and that's bad. But I've failed at MT, too. Someone kill me pls.
15:27 * majochup thinks
15:27 majochup Xiong
15:27 majochup nah *CENSORED BY HOLY_BONGOCAT INC* lol jk
15:28 ircSparky hey man it's all good
15:28 ircSparky someone being a dickhead isnt your fault
15:28 Xiong I've spent my life trying to develop and follow decent principles of respect, honesty, industry, and friendliness and compassion toward others. And all I've gotten is nods and yehs and they pee in the cole slaw
15:29 majochup yep
15:29 majochup like *person is in here so i wont say names*
15:29 ircSparky so what server is this? sounds like a factions pvp server or somehting
15:31 Xiong I live in squalid poverty while Trump openly sneers at everything decent folk know. And he doesn't even care if he's president... he can afford not to work. He'll be furious if impeacehed... and enjoy every moment, raving and cursing, and tell the story until he dies, laughing his ass off.
15:32 Xiong That lunatic lives like an emperor. I live like a rat under a boot.
15:33 Swedneck is this really on topic?
15:33 Xiong I don't think it helpful to name, to out people. YMMV.
15:34 majochup Xiong i feel like ketchup :)
15:35 Xiong Well Swedneck as the last dozen people said who insulted me when I was steering straight down the middle of the topic... dunno I care.
15:36 Swedneck not sure what that means, but this is #minetest, not #politics
15:36 Swedneck but oh well i'm not a moderator
15:36 Xiong There should at least be constructive servers. I don't mean creative mode; sorry I don't respect that. No challenge.
15:37 Xiong Swedneck my blather isn't politics it's self-pity and bathos.
15:38 Swedneck ...which still isn't very relevant to minetest
15:38 Xiong You noticed!
15:39 Xiong The first principle of running a constructive server is defending the world. Boring nasty job. What I see, over and again, is the local god abandoning his throne to play mortal and build brass palaces
15:40 Xiong While the boss is doing the work players should do... the players are left to fend off the wreckers alone. Helluva way to run a world. I guess they learned by example.
15:42 Swedneck i have no clue what you're talking about lol
15:42 Xiong Well when did you start reading?
15:43 Xiong I am a pretty decent fellow; I'll catch you up.
15:43 Xiong From the start? You tell me.
15:44 Xiong 0736 <Xiong> There should at least be constructive servers.
15:44 Swedneck from the start
15:44 Xiong That enough?
15:44 Xiong Okay.
15:46 Xiong I just wasted two weeks on a server, advertised as constructive, working hard, trying to be a friend to my neighbors. But for reasons unclear I have made an unknown and deadly enemy, smart, resourceful, and vicious. I don't even think he's a regular player, just a wandering vandal. But admin shrugs.
15:49 Xiong Apparently I wasted my time planting flowers and trying to help players like the six year old girl who just wants to ride her bike... and plant flowers. I ought to have been building a fort out of blastproof concrete and digging lava moats roofed in trapstone.
15:49 Xiong So yeh, I'm upset.
15:49 ircSparky is that Persistent Kingdoms?
15:50 Xiong No.
15:50 ircSparky ok
15:50 ircSparky does the 6 y/o girl think that time was wasted?
15:50 Xiong But he's not the only such boss. I curse the class, not one man.
15:51 Xiong I have no idea. I think her typing skills are limited to "hi" and "ok".
15:51 Swedneck ah right, that sucks
15:53 Xiong If this was the only such experience I'd shrug it off. But my point is that I've spent my real life the same way... trying to be decent and getting peed on. I don't enjoy it. I'd prefer another life, at least ingame.
15:54 ircSparky what kind of server would you like?
15:54 Xiong Well I said: constructive.
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15:56 Xiong Cooperative play, not "creative mode"; and a boss who puts his efforts into existential threats. Not puttering around.
15:56 Swedneck I think friendly is a better term
15:57 ircSparky what stuff do you like to do?
15:57 Xiong I prefer "constructive" because constructing good things is, for me, friendly.
15:57 ircSparky i have a citysim server
15:59 Xiong Well I spent time expanding farms, reclaiming land, planting trees. I'm not terribly adventurous but I'll scout a long way to find plants and bring back.
15:59 ircSparky do you think you'd like being police?
16:04 Xiong I do build structures but I don't aim for squat blockhouses. The first structure I ever built was a classic Renaissance
16:04 Xiong theater, with heaven, hell, castle, period-small stage... sweeping staircase, fountain, and bar below. Added, presumably, at a later and more decadent date.
16:04 Xiong That was my first attempt at anything in MT.
16:06 Xiong I called it the Greek Theater... not because it was one or resembled one; but because the men who built such things called them that.
16:07 Xiong My... erm former current project... was a mashup of Middle Eastern and Soviet influences. Much desert stone.
16:08 Xiong Think Kremlin in Istsnbul.
16:08 Xiong Istanbul!
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16:09 Xiong ircSparky I can think of no task than police that I would like less.
16:09 Xiong Rather village idiot.
16:10 ircSparky lol
16:10 majochup lol
16:11 Xiong I respect police IRL, for all that they have feet of clay and an unfortunate habit of shooting at citizens. But as imperfect humans they do get up and go to work a very difficult job, with few real rewards.
16:13 Xiong Before anyone runs around singing FTP, I'd ask what life would be like with no police at all.
16:15 VanessaE 1920 Chicago, more or less
16:16 Xiong Once... here in San Francisco... I called to report I'd been assaulted... battered by a weapon to be more precise... by the lunatic methhead next door. Four hours and the beat supervisor showed. "I got four cops for the whole Mission District on Saturday night. We can't even keep up with shots-fired."
16:18 Xiong So yes thank you sergeant and no thank you ircSparky. Do not want the job.
16:18 Xiong VanessaE Hi!
16:19 ircSparky yea San Fransico got it hard
16:19 Xiong What do you think? Why is this so tolerated, server after server turned into a disorganized huddle of fortified bunkers?
16:20 Xiong Why is security so bad?
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16:20 ircSparky are the servers supposed to be pvp?
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16:21 majochup xerox123 why do u have 2 accounts?
16:21 majochup i mean IRC accounts
16:21 Xiong Granted there's a tradeoff between keeping the doors open for new honest players and defending against these... serial home invaders and arsonists.
16:22 Xiong Which servers ircSparky?
16:23 Xiong Obviously some servers are PvP.
16:23 ircSparky the ones you are talking about?
16:23 xerox123 majochup: one's for my phone, and I hate it when my ZNC playbacks merge
16:23 Xiong The roving delinquents sometimes kill players but they also destroy and steal.
16:23 ircSparky most servers have protection blocks that dont allows people to destroy
16:24 Xiong I'm not talking about servers so much as threats... and our inability to cope.
16:25 Xiong Not all bad actions are wrecking.  There are several flavors. Also there are ways to defeat popular protection schemes.
16:25 ircSparky well, if a server isnot meant to be pvp, one can easily make a mod that only lets people who want to pvp get damaged, or disable it entirely
16:26 ircSparky and have protection blocks or areas to prevent griefing
16:26 ircSparky as well as trustworthy moderators to enforce the other server rules
16:27 Xiong One can easily do x, y, and z. But all together seems to be an overwhelming task. And the attacks range from crude to sophisticated. There are hacked clients.
16:27 VanessaE sorry, had to step out.  Xiong, my opinion?  it comes with the territory.  online gaming attracts bad actors.  simple as that.
16:27 Xiong No surprise VE.
16:28 VanessaE at least my servers are well-managed, most of the time anyway :)
16:28 Xiong But... a bank attracts robbers. They invest in good security.
16:29 Xiong I avoid all-or-nothing thinking. We cannot have perfect security and all security comes at a cost. But rape and pillage should not be daily incidents.
16:29 VanessaE yeah but a bank is a different matter - you can't just hack your way through the vault door (well, not usually)
16:30 Xiong Right. And MT should, I think, be less vulnerable than it is.
16:30 VanessaE "rape and pillage" are best managed with clear rules and a no-tolerance policy - play nice or fuck off to ban land.
16:31 ircSparky yea what servers are you playing on?
16:31 ircSparky my server only has one guy that causes major trouble
16:31 ircSparky and evades bans
16:31 VanessaE as for "hacked" clients, they only do things the player could do anyway, except faster.  fly and noclip aside.
16:31 Xiong Ah, but the damage is done.  There are enough bad actors banging around to make life unpleasant, even if you ban every nick and ip you see.
16:31 VanessaE and there's nothing that can really be done to defend against that.
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16:32 Xiong Fly and no clip is bad enough, no?
16:32 ircSparky there is anticheat
16:32 VanessaE they're bad, but there's nothing the server can really do, in a performant way, to make those not a problem
16:32 ircSparky but yea if you have any servers that you'd like specific advice for, i could probably help
16:33 Xiong Look I'll stop right here. I see a very bad problem and I say it needs work. No point fixing anything else if a teen with angst and too much free time can wreck it... and there are dozens of them.
16:34 VanessaE Xiong: point is it *can't* be fixed.
16:34 VanessaE not right now anyway
16:34 Xiong ircSparky I don't mean to be insulting but why are we talking at cross purposes?
16:34 Xiong Yes, rightnow.
16:34 rubenwardy noclip and fly can be fixed with a lot of non-trivial engine changes
16:35 rubenwardy currently movement is client-side, and that's the problem
16:35 VanessaE unless you can come up with a sub-millisecond-precision network protocol that is impervious to lag
16:35 ircSparky idk what you mean Xiong
16:35 Xiong Nothing really has a higher priority than building a friendly, open community.
16:35 rubenwardy VanessaE: this is a solved problem
16:36 rubenwardy client-side prediction, server-side reconcilliation
16:36 VanessaE rubenwardy: not in 0.4.x it isn't :P
16:36 rubenwardy a "solved problem" means that the computer science field already has many solutions available
16:36 VanessaE right
16:36 Xiong Yes well I'm running the 5.0.0 and it's the same old war.
16:36 rubenwardy it doesn't mean that a particular application implements any of them
16:37 * VanessaE shrugsa
16:37 * VanessaE shrugs, too.
16:37 Xiong Better security doesn't mean perfect security!
16:38 ircSparky but it does mean better
16:38 ircSparky and a better experience
16:38 Xiong I'm making an impassioned yet sober appeal for less involuntary brutality.
16:38 ircSparky to who
16:39 Xiong To you. To myself. To anyone who listens. Perhaps more, to those who don't.
16:40 majochup k
16:40 Swedneck the solution seems pretty simple to me: find or start a server with a good community and admins/mods that care
16:41 Xiong I don't want a splinter in my palm every time I pick up.a broom. Life is life and there will be splinters. But the broomstick can be sanded.
16:41 Xiong Simple solution, of course. Why didn't I think of that? I must be a fool and an idiot.
16:42 VanessaE Swedneck: the problem is, to encourage that, you need good rules, too.  but rules drive people away, and having too few people makes for a boring server.
16:43 Xiong "I'm broke and starving." -- "Go get some money and buy food. Simple solution!"
16:43 ircSparky ok i will be less involentarily brutal
16:43 ircSparky ttyl
16:43 Swedneck i don't think rules drive people away, as long as they're not the length of an average EULA, and very clear
16:43 Xiong I do not agree rules are a solution.
16:44 Swedneck err, it's not that hard to start your own server
16:45 VanessaE Swedneck: then maybe you can explain why my servers don't even make the top 10 in the list, despite having good admins, good mod selection, nice builds, and relatively few rules
16:45 Xiong Bad actors don't care they're breaking rules... rather, they glory in it. Ban them, they just move on... or move to another ip and come back to do it again.
16:45 majochup VanessaE: is there a top 10 best MT server list?
16:45 VanessaE majochup: http://servers.minetest.net/
16:46 VanessaE not a top 10 but trivial to see who's there
16:46 Xiong VanessaE not sure you mean the server list built into the client? How is that sorted?
16:46 VanessaE Xiong: that ^^^ link, which the in-game list is derived from
16:47 VanessaE the sorting algorithm is complex
16:47 Xiong Well I've time.
16:48 VanessaE takes a bunch of stuff into account like player count, server age, lag, and more.
16:48 Xiong You said you weren't near top. Must not sort on quality.
16:48 VanessaE it does not.
16:49 Xiong Well then, rank on such a list... meaningless.
16:50 Xiong Not sure a point score based on "likes" would be much better. One man's trash another's treasure.
16:50 VanessaE it matters because if your server isn't on that all-important first page, it may as well not exist./
16:50 VanessaE because users don't seem to know how to scroll and read
16:52 Xiong VanessaE how many times per week is someone on your (survival mode) server attacked, vandalized, cheated, or otherwise upset and outraged over something concrete? Not just gimmee-cry.
16:53 VanessaE perhaps once a month I get some report like that
16:53 VanessaE and it's always someone who didn't bother to protect their structure.
16:53 Xiong Well that's better than what I got.
16:53 VanessaE the offender is checked-out, banned.
16:53 Xiong Aha!
16:54 Xiong And how much time and (time to generate resources) should I spend protecting what's mine?
16:55 VanessaE it only takes seconds to place a protection block
16:55 VanessaE less than a minute to use `areas` mod commands.
16:55 VanessaE once done, griefing is unlikely to happen.
16:55 VanessaE it's not like you have to hire site security or something
16:57 Xiong To give you an idea... I put my ground-level elevator behind two layers of steel doors with obfuscation between... obfuscated all paths to underground stops... and elaborated the whole with tells and misdirection. The attacker glitched through all and dug a kilometer-deep deathtrap for me. Me personally!
16:58 VanessaE no protection blocks/commands?
16:59 Xiong I thought I'd been paranoid. I was ashamed of myself for building so much antisocial junk
16:59 Xiong What?
16:59 Xiong Everything protected. Land grab.
16:59 VanessaE obviously not.
16:59 VanessaE protection blocks or areas commands cause the engine to prevent non-owner place/dig actions entirely, no matter how hacked their client is.
16:59 Xiong Obviously yes.
17:00 Xiong No protection deep underground.
17:00 VanessaE why not?
17:00 Xiong Dunno. Ask boss.
17:00 VanessaE protection blocks/commands are not usually limited to just the surface
17:01 Xiong Not the point. Attacker glitched through my fully protected surface lab doors.
17:01 VanessaE you're not listening.
17:02 Xiong No; you have a point unrelated to my point.
17:02 VanessaE an attacker may be able to "glitch" through a protected wall, but protection features mean that wall would still remain, and that floor would not remain dug up, let alone be a kilometer deep
17:02 Xiong I read very quickly and type very slowly... with one finger on my phone.
17:02 VanessaE which in turn means "the boss" whoever he is, is an idiot.
17:03 VanessaE for using unreliable protection mods.
17:03 majochup hi
17:03 Xiong The hole starts at -1200 and goes to about -2400.
17:03 VanessaE so?
17:04 Xiong So that has nothing to do with somebody in my elevators.
17:04 * VanessaE wanders off
17:04 Xiong Nobody should be in my elevators but me unless I make them public.
17:05 Xiong Sorry my concerns don't concern you.
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17:07 Xiong I do not want to spend my play time stuffing claim blocks all over creation. That eventually leads to overclaiming and a world where a newcomer can't find a meter of dirt to sleep on... just like IRL.
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17:10 Xiong I want to see less paranoid bunker-building, more social structures, common areas, public resources. More joy, less throat-cutting. Less play time wasted scheming how to hang onto a box of rocks.
17:12 freudolacaniano Hi, how are you? I have problems installing mods, I just can't! I'm running 0.4.16 on Linux Mint 19.1
17:13 Xiong Nobody should even be able to dig a kilometer-deep hole without any care. That's a hazard no matter how it's done.
17:13 Xiong freudolacaniano do tell.
17:13 freudolacaniano When I put mods on the corresponding place, it shouts "Error"
17:13 freudolacaniano In the console
17:14 Xiong Probably not. But let me step you through it.
17:14 Swedneck ~/.minetest/mods, correct?
17:15 Swedneck and are you putting archives or normal folders in there?
17:15 freudolacaniano usr/share/games/.minetest/mods
17:15 Xiong Can you run the package in singleplayer right after install?
17:15 freudolacaniano There I'm decompressing the zips packages
17:15 Xiong Okay Swedneck you do it.
17:15 Swedneck try putting the mods in ~/.minetest/mods instead
17:16 Xiong freudolacaniano if you get the help you want, great. If not, ask me again
17:16 freudolacaniano Well, let's see
17:16 Krock joined #minetest
17:17 Ruslan1 Hello
17:17 Krock hi
17:21 ANAND joined #minetest
17:21 freudolacaniano Should I rename the folders when I unzip it?
17:22 majochup idk
17:22 Swedneck only if they have dashes or other not allowed characters
17:22 majochup freudolacaniona: if it has something with opener or so in i
17:22 majochup it*
17:23 Swedneck ideally they should be archived in such a way that they have the correct name when extracted
17:23 freudolacaniano Thanks!
17:23 majochup or manager that should be removed
17:23 majochup yw :)
17:23 Swedneck for example most of the time if it's named something like "minetest-technic" then just remove "minetest-"
17:25 freudolacaniano Thank you everyone! It worked perfectly, I was just putting the mods on the wrong folder (usr/share/games/.minetest instead of myname/.minetest) and also was not naming correctly the folders.
17:26 majochup your welcome :P
17:26 Swedneck :D
17:26 Swedneck also keep in mind that you have to enable mods per-world
17:26 Swedneck and that some mods have dependencies, which you will need to download and enable.
17:27 Swedneck however in the next minetest release this is all going to be made much simpler, with the client handling mods for you
17:27 Swedneck see https://content.minetest.net
17:30 Krock Swedneck: renaming them is no longer needed (since ~0.4.15) if the mod contains a "mod.conf" file inside
17:31 Krock that will correct the mod name automatically
17:31 Swedneck 90% of the time minetest complained about them having illegal characters in the name, for me
17:31 Swedneck until i changed the directory name
17:31 Krock so 90% of your mods are old
17:32 Krock you don't need to rename them if you clone the mods directly from git* btw
17:32 Krock unless the mod author decided to name their mod "minetest-mymodname"
17:32 Swedneck https://gateway.swedneck.xyz/ipfs/QmWJsJio1saseDqnwDgYGjMc5cuggoGwVRqri1BckrZNbL/2019-01-11_18-32-32.png
17:33 Krock waiting for connection...
17:33 Krock looks about right
17:33 Swedneck most of those were renamed, because minetest complained otherwise
17:33 Krock naming does not matter for mesecons, plantlife and technic in this case; they're modpacks
17:35 Krock uh.. storing images in ipfs? That's an interesting decision
17:35 Swedneck how so
17:37 Krock actually it's the ipfs' server owners problem if they want to store files which aren't interesting or up-to-date after a few weeks
17:38 Krock if there's no "forget" function for unpopular/unlinked files then the amount of garbage will quickly take more space than the actual interesting files
17:38 Swedneck which would be me, since it's served from my desktop and server
17:38 Krock isn't it connected to an outside upfs network?
17:38 Krock *ipfs
17:38 Swedneck well yes, but only my nodes store the data
17:39 Krock oh I see. that's a feature I wasn't aware of
17:39 Swedneck you can ofc choose to pin it on your own node
17:40 Swedneck getting a bit offtopic, but ipfs deduplicates any identical blocks of data in files, so if 2 screenshots are mostly the same then the second one will only take up as much extra space as is different from the first screenshot
17:43 Krock a visual diff? wow
17:44 Swedneck well it splits files into small chunks, and files in ipfs are just a list of hashes of those chunks
17:44 Swedneck visit #ipfs and i can go more in depth
17:46 Krock thanks for the pointer and the explanations, although I'm not interested enough to dig further into this topic.
17:46 Swedneck sure thing
17:46 Krock just trying to get an overview, as a rough knowledge of what it offers
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18:30 Xiong Well philosophy aside... I am running prerelease 5.0.0 with good results. I'll take suggestions for servers: survival mode, v7, no PvP, no "far". I want to see UI and a broad selection of interesting mods... probably rather see moretrees than technic but interesting is better than any particular item. I like autocrafters, anvils, and shears. No mobs! All of this is less than a server run on principles of conduct that *improve* on
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18:46 CWz issue with software manager: https://i.postimg.cc/g2cR78MB/Screenshot-at-2019-01-11-20-44-48.png
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18:52 rubenwardy which one?
18:56 CWz Ubuntu Mate
18:56 CWz but i am using the official ppa
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20:18 IhrFussel Xiong, "no mobs" already invalidates 90% of survival servers alone... what is a survival server without hostile creatures?
20:19 IhrFussel Additionally no PvP so no PvP survival either... are you looking for a survival simulation rather than a real survival game? Only hunger/thirst/stamina/health matters?
20:22 IhrFussel On my server PvP is per-player and ve be toggled anytime via /pvp or with the window that asks you after you join ... but it has mobs... over 30 different types of mobs with different skins, different strengths, different ratings (so that one mob can be different from another even if it's the same species) ... I think that makes for a very exciting gameplay
20:22 IhrFussel and can*
20:23 IhrFussel Players who don't like monsters can protect a HUGE area somewhere and no monsters will spawn anywhere within that area ... each player has 10 protections for up to 128x96x128 in size
20:26 IhrFussel But without mobs my server gets boring fast... even though there are other aspects like hunger ... and my level system also makes little sense if you never fight mobs cause the level system dtermines your damage and gives you a feel of progression
20:29 IhrFussel You also have more HP with higher levels... I put quite a bit of work into an ugly hack that makes it possible to have more than 20 HP in 0.4.X versions cause usually you can't
20:35 IhrFussel 'far' is a persoal preference, I understand that you don't like it... it is enabled on my server cause you can see when someone gets hurt/heals cause the name tag will change and show their HP
20:35 IhrFussel personal*
20:36 Krock nice monologie
20:36 Krock s/ie/ue/
20:38 IhrFussel 'interesting mods' is very subjective... even though I have 200 some simply don't want to play on my server cause I'm missing 'technic' and 'pipeworks'
20:40 IhrFussel The distance between you and the server location might also be an important point to consider... it's not fun to play on a survival server with 200ms+ ping
20:41 IhrFussel btw there are barely any 5.0.0 servers right now... and none of them has an active userbase last I checked... I recommend to just stick with 0.4.X servers for now
20:43 IhrFussel And don't expect too many longterm servers to quickly upgrade when 5.0.0 releases... I certainly won't
20:44 Krock IhrFussel: you're wrong. Creatively Survival has already quite a solid userbase
20:44 IhrFussel Krock, I was just replying to what Xiong said earlier in this channel
20:44 Krock sauce: playing on it sometimes
20:45 IhrFussel The servers that run on 5.0.0-dev right now are no longterm servers that ran for years already AFAIK ... they are fresh, new servers that try to establish a new userbase
20:46 IhrFussel Some of them just exist for testing
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20:47 Krock they're not longterm servers. yet.
20:49 IhrFussel When 5.0.0 releases there will be trouble... iOS users will still play on their 3rd-party app that only supports 0.4.X while most PC/Android users might switch to 5.0.0 and wonder why they can't play on their favorite servers anymore...it will be a mess
20:51 IhrFussel And it's up to each server owner to decide when the right time is to upgrade ... maybe it could help when the core devs begin to distribute regular usage stats
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20:51 VanessaE ^  precisely why my servers will not move over to 5.0.0 right away
20:51 IhrFussel "how many used 0.4.X this month and how many used 5.0.0"
20:52 majochup hi :D
20:53 Krock IhrFussel: bug 5fan5 for stats
20:53 IhrFussel How is it planned for the play store? Will 5.0.0 just be a simple update? Or will it be a separate app?
20:54 rubenwardy It'll be an update
20:54 IhrFussel If it's just an update for every 0.4.X user then I see BIG problems incoming
20:55 IhrFussel You should at least warn everyone in the app description that if they update they will NO longer be able to play on 0.4.X servers
20:56 IhrFussel That might at least save the ones that disabled auto updates
20:56 Krock dude, that's a week and the players moved
20:56 Krock or wait for 5.1.0
20:56 Krock and then for 5.2.0 to finally miss the train
20:57 IhrFussel You don't get that many major servers will not upgrade after 1 week...I doubt that they will upgrade after 1 month either
20:58 IhrFussel Did you ever compare the userbase in the server list to the amount of servers? It is somewhat already a huge competition between servers
20:58 Krock you'd be surprised how fast this may change
20:58 IhrFussel There is not even enough users to fill all servers even if they were split as "2 per server"
20:58 Krock regarding your first statement
20:59 Krock well yes, that's how it works. popular servers rise, others become unattractive.
21:00 IhrFussel But if the userbase was larger then they were FORCED to also check out "unpopular" servers cause the top servers are already full
21:01 Krock and more servers would spawn again
21:01 Krock until they notice that there's no demand for it
21:02 IhrFussel We talked LONG long ago about a possible solution ... paramat had the idea once to prioritize "quality servers"
21:03 IhrFussel Not sure what his exact definition was but I'd guess servers that are well maintained and have a healthy userbase ... maybe he also wanted to include age, uptime and avg lag...not sure
21:04 IhrFussel I think he also talked about be possibility of "rolling" through top servers
21:04 IhrFussel the*
21:05 IhrFussel So that not only the one with the highest score stays at the top ... cause the score system in the server list is rather random
21:06 IhrFussel There are user waves where nobody has any idea where they come from... and if those waves target a server that was far down in the list, it jumps suddenly to the top
21:06 IhrFussel And when the wave is over it falls again after some time
21:09 IhrFussel Don't ask me why they sometimes flood servers with less people... I heard there are apps that require coins in order to "unlock" more servers ... and there are apps that "feature" always another server ... there are apps that require you to watch ADS to collect ingame currency to have access to more servers
21:11 IhrFussel There are also ads that enable you to cheat on servers if you pay some money I think...cause I saw a mobile user who told me that they could walk faster and they actually COULD
21:11 IhrFussel apps not ads*
21:12 IhrFussel They walked a tad faster...it was not 'fast' speed ... more like 5-6 nodes/sec
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21:35 freudolacaniano Hi, I need help again. I've installed mobs_redo,animals,horses and npc and they don't appear on the worlds I create. I active ALL MODS before I start playing. Can anyone help me?
21:36 freudolacaniano My version is 0.4.16
21:44 IhrFussel Check if the mods are really enabled
21:44 IhrFussel Try /spawnentity mobs_animal:bunny
21:45 Krock freudolacaniano: are the mods loaded? check /mods
21:47 freudolacaniano I put /mods and mobs appear
21:49 freudolacaniano Yes, animals appear
21:50 freudolacaniano When I use the cmd
21:51 Krock I had that issue too and just increased the spawn chance
21:52 Krock they spawn, but very rarely.
21:53 freudolacaniano How do I increase the spawn chance?
21:56 Krock for horses: https://notabug.org/TenPlus1/mob_horse/src/master/init.lua#L151
21:56 Krock chance = 10,
21:56 Krock interval = 5,
21:58 freudolacaniano Okay
21:59 freudolacaniano I put the same numbers on the other animals?
22:03 IhrFussel freudolacaniano, lower chance means "appears more often"
22:04 freudolacaniano And interval?
22:04 IhrFussel Seconds between the "chance" check
22:04 freudolacaniano Thank you so much!! I downloaded the game yesterday, thank you all for being so patient!
22:05 IhrFussel You shouldn't make it too low or else your map will be flooded with animals... I would suggest an interval of 15 ad chance of 5000
22:05 IhrFussel Chance needs to be that high because it checks the chance for each block in a radius
22:06 freudolacaniano Oh okay, thank you
22:06 IhrFussel If animals only spawn on dirt_with_grass the chance can be a bit lower than when animals spawn on dirt and dirt with grass
22:07 IhrFussel Generally make the chance higher based on nodes defined above the chance/interval
22:09 Krock yes, roughly the same numbers to the other registered mobs
22:11 freudolacaniano So, if I put chance 5000 and interval 15, every 15 seconds, there is a chance of 1/5000 that a mob spawn?
22:13 IhrFussel Per node/block in a radius of active_block_range
22:13 IhrFussel No wait
22:14 IhrFussel It checks the chance per 15 seconds for each defined node inside the spawn registration that is within the radius of (16*3) nodes in each direction by default
22:15 IhrFussel When the mob needs dirt and there is no dirt nothing will spawn
22:15 freudolacaniano Okay
22:15 Krock *  16^3, not 16*3
22:16 Krock ABMs are performed per mapblock
22:16 freudolacaniano Well, I put the chances between 3000 and 6000, I hope mobs now spawn.
22:16 IhrFussel But it is 16*3 nodes in each direction
22:16 Krock 48 nodes? how so?
22:16 IhrFussel active_block_range
22:17 IhrFussel I though a value of 3 means 48 nodes in each direction
22:17 Krock they could also be forceloaded
22:17 IhrFussel Mobs only spawn within active_block_range
22:18 IhrFussel Nothing gets forceloaded
22:18 IhrFussel Let me check the exact range
22:20 IhrFussel The mobs use a ABM to spawn and ABMs can only run within 48 nodes from the player...or not?
22:20 IhrFussel By default
22:21 Krock yes that's true. Additionally they will also spawn around mapblocks which are forceloaded by other mods
22:21 Krock I wonder why mobs_redo isn't using LBMs yet
22:21 Krock that would make mobs appear much quicker in-game
22:22 IhrFussel freudolacaniano, if you want mobs to spawn from farther away you can increase the active_block_range setting (this might slow down your game a bit)
22:23 IhrFussel Default view range is 100 I think... so at default settings the mobs will just pop in which might look ugly
22:23 freudolacaniano Well, no. my pc is not so good, so I prefer to reduce the chance if I still don't see mobs
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22:24 IhrFussel It's not about chance...I meant mobs will only spawn "close" to you and not far away...if this doesn't bother you all is fine
22:25 IhrFussel You should also reduce your view range (- key) if your PC is old
22:25 Krock Minetest will mainly require a strong single core CPU. for view range 100 it's fine to have a benchmark value of 2000+ (https://www.cpubenchmark.net/)
22:26 Krock *strong single thread rating
22:26 Krock well, the mobs will not spawn far away anyway
22:31 freudolacaniano And I increase view range with +?
22:32 Krock yep
22:32 Krock or manually in the config file
22:35 freudolacaniano I put 200 and still goes well
22:39 freudolacaniano Thank you. I've started a game with a fractal map and it's very cool
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22:48 Krock yay
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