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IRC log for #minetest, 2018-06-20

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All times shown according to UTC.

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03:19 AlienCat I wonder if we ever can move to 0.5
03:20 VanessaE no
03:20 VanessaE because it'll be 5.0.0 :)
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03:23 AlienCat wut
03:23 AlienCat its 0.4 now
03:24 AlienCat 0.4.17.1
03:24 VanessaE yes.
03:25 VanessaE and the next major feature release will be 5.0.0.  devs have decided to drop the leading 0.
03:26 VanessaE the 0.4.x series is more or less in maintenance only now.  bugfixes, no new features.
03:26 AlienCat Anyways there seemed to be many mods for 5.0.0 but the development seem to have dies
03:27 VanessaE dev of what, has died?
03:27 VanessaE the mods, or the engine, because the engine has not.
03:27 AlienCat I mean the mods for the 5.0.0
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05:50 larrythecow is it not possible to change a node's formspec inside on_receive_fields using meta:set_string("formspec", new_formspec)?
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05:52 ANAND It's possible, AFAIK. Have you tried it yet?
05:53 ANAND You could invoke show formspec, and pass the same formspec name as the second parameter
05:53 larrythecow i did
05:54 larrythecow i have not tried show_formspec though
05:54 ANAND What else have you tried?
05:54 larrythecow i put the same code in an abm and it works
05:54 larrythecow and the same code in on_construct and it works
05:54 larrythecow and i wrapped it in minetest.after but that did not work
05:55 larrythecow 5 second timeout to give me a chance to exit the formspec in the gui
05:55 larrythecow i also printed called meta:get_string("formspec") and dumped that right after setting the new value in on_receive_fields
05:56 larrythecow the dumped text was indeed the new value, but when i rightclick the node it shows the old value
05:56 ANAND It works from within an ABM without calling show_formspec()?
05:56 larrythecow er, old formspec
05:56 larrythecow yes, changing the formspec works in an abm
05:57 larrythecow i did not have the form open at that time though
05:57 ANAND Ah
05:57 ANAND That explains
05:57 larrythecow does having the form open prevent changes?
05:57 ANAND I think so
05:57 larrythecow ahhhh
05:57 ANAND Use show_formspec again, after modifying the formspec
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06:02 larrythecow calling show_formspec causes an immediate change to the form
06:02 larrythecow but the value does not persist when i close and reopen the form
06:05 ANAND oh right
06:06 ANAND Also set the node's formspec meta field
06:06 larrythecow i never changed that part. both things are being done
06:07 ANAND You mean the actual values entered don't persist?
06:07 larrythecow yes
06:08 larrythecow unless i'm missing something obvious after a long day of coding
06:10 ANAND IIRC, tenplus1's Protector Redo mod features something similar to what you're asking for...
06:10 ANAND !mod Protector Redo
06:10 MinetestBot ANAND: Protector Redo [protector] by TenPlus1 - https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=9376
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06:10 ANAND AFK for a while, good luck
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06:12 larrythecow thanks
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06:13 larrythecow hmm
06:14 larrythecow that mod completely works around using on_receive_fields for a node, apparently confirming the observed behavior
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12:06 MinetestBot [git] ClobberXD -> minetest/minetest: Lua_api.txt: Fix incorrect vector section directive (#7466) 2e95ebd https://git.io/fG2iA (2018-06-20T12:05:56Z)
12:13 MinetestBot [git] paramat -> minetest/minetest: README.md: Improve version scheme text (#7465) 525fa91 https://git.io/fG2Pr (2018-06-20T12:11:13Z)
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12:14 Neoplasm Hi
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16:16 Andrey01 Hello everyone
16:17 ircSparky hi
16:17 Andrey01 Devs, are you planning to add API for creating "subworlds" in 5.0.0?
16:17 ircSparky !seen ac_minetest
16:17 MinetestBot ircSparky: ac_minetest was last seen at 2015-09-23 07:36:38 UTC on #minetest
16:17 rubenwardy no
16:20 Andrey01 when will 5.0.0 be realeased? No date yet?
16:21 rubenwardy no date, probably a few months
16:22 Krock It's done when it's done
16:23 Andrey01 will this update be the most big of all last updates?
16:23 red-001 isn't there a changelog on the wiki?
16:27 Andrey01 there is, here:https://dev.minetest.net/Changelog, however it looks here should be more changes in list, that`s why 5.0.0 doesn`t seem to be so global
16:28 rubenwardy as it says on that page, it was last updated in Jan
16:30 Andrey01 in Feb
16:30 Andrey01 19th Feb by nerzhul
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16:39 Andrey01 When the error is calling: attempt to index a nil value is it means does this index not exist?
16:40 Astrobe no, it means the "table" is nil
16:41 Astrobe Like in "palyers[i]", "palyers" is a nil value because of the typo.
16:41 Krock pals
16:44 Andrey01 hmm... it`s strange, i don`t have a typo
16:44 Astrobe I can give you soem, I haz plenty :D
16:45 Krock thaz not typo, iz lolcat
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16:47 Andrey01 can i upload my code here or elsewhere you to see where is an error?
16:47 rubenwardy paste bin
16:47 rubenwardy or gist
16:47 ScrambledAuroras Andrey01: gist.github.com
16:47 rubenwardy as long as it has highlighting and little JS
16:47 red-001 gist is basically a pastebin
16:49 Andrey01 do i need to upload my code there? how?
16:49 red-001 copy and paste
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16:52 Andrey01 Should i make secret gist or public one?
16:53 red-001 do you want it to be public?
16:54 Andrey01 no
16:54 Andrey01 here is a link: https://gist.github.com/Andrey2470T/0dede93c6d355c7da95b6d7bfe9e61ba
16:55 rubenwardy please rename to .lua
16:55 rubenwardy soemthing.lua
16:55 rubenwardy so it's highlighted
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16:56 Andrey01 do i need to make commentaries to simplify "reading" of the code?
16:56 Andrey01 renamed
16:58 rubenwardy which line is the issue one?
16:58 Astrobe We'll need the line number of the error too.
16:59 rubenwardy some general comments: try to use correct indentation (line 8 onwards is weirdly indented)
16:59 rubenwardy also don't nest too much
16:59 rubenwardy use functions instead
16:59 Andrey01 line:178
16:59 rubenwardy there is no 178
16:59 red-001 ^
16:59 rubenwardy see what line 178 is in your code
16:59 red-001 what file is the error in?
17:00 rubenwardy then tell us which line it is in the gist
17:01 rubenwardy the whole code is unreadable because of the nesting and broken indentations
17:01 rubenwardy ie: I don't know what's in the for loops and whats now
17:01 rubenwardy *not
17:01 rubenwardy also, consider using early exit rather than massive if statments
17:02 rubenwardy so if type(particlespawners_amount) == "number" and particlespawners_amount > 0 then could be redone to just return immediately if not true
17:02 rubenwardy rather than making everything indented
17:02 Astrobe <insert vodka joke here>
17:02 Andrey01 it`s 140th line
17:02 rubenwardy huh?
17:03 Andrey01 i don`t know why it is 140th, it should be 178
17:03 Andrey01 Ah, all is right, i passed unnecessary part of my code
17:06 Astrobe If it's actually line 140, I'm not surprised; 4 indexes, no less, so 4 things indexed.
17:09 Andrey01 wait, i will add commentaries to my code now
17:09 rubenwardy properly indenting it and cleaning it up would be better
17:10 Astrobe you should try to do "local dummy=particle_def[3]" and add progressively the other indexes and see at which point it breaks.
17:10 Astrobe To debug this.
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17:15 Astrobe It may be that param_min_pos has an improper value.
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17:35 Copenhagen_Bram hello
17:35 Andrey01 I`ve added commentaries and indentations properly
17:35 Copenhagen_Bram you know for a moment i thought i had the problem licked by turning on VBO and stuff but it's still lagging
17:35 Copenhagen_Bram hey Andrey01
17:36 Andrey01 hi
17:38 Copenhagen_Bram do you run minetest on linux-libre with a Intel GMA 4500MHD gpu?
17:40 sofar whoah, that's old
17:40 Andrey01 Copenhagen_Bram, do you ask to me?
17:40 Copenhagen_Bram sofar: nice, every single thinkpad laptop sold by technoethical or minifree has one
17:41 sofar 2008 GPU
17:41 sofar they still sell them?
17:41 Copenhagen_Bram sofar: i hope, because i suspect the more modern ones are all proprietary
17:41 sofar I work for Intel
17:42 sofar DISCLAIMER: this is my personal opinion, not my employers
17:42 sofar you're wasting your time
17:42 sofar cheers!
17:42 Copenhagen_Bram sofar: can you tell your boss to get rid of intel ME and to make their hardware open source?
17:42 sfan5 I thought Intels GPU drivers were free software?
17:43 sfan5 or is there a binary blob required?
17:43 Krock insert minix into Intel stuff
17:43 red-001 ^
17:43 sofar ME can be disabled on many platforms, and is not even present on many too
17:43 red-001 ME is extra embedded system on the CPU
17:43 sofar UEFI is essentially open source
17:43 red-001 is the*
17:44 Copenhagen_Bram so UEFI is hardware? I was wondering if it was a BIOS thing
17:44 sofar UEFI is software
17:44 sofar https://www.tianocore.org/
17:44 Copenhagen_Bram oh
17:45 Copenhagen_Bram but if i install Libreboot on a device that doesn't have UEFI, will it now have UEFI because Libreboot has it?
17:45 sofar personally, I feel libreboot is a bit too much tinfoil hat and doesn't actually buy you any security
17:46 sofar just erase the uefi key store and upload your own keys
17:46 sofar and you're much more secure
17:46 Copenhagen_Bram i need to learn about uefi
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17:46 Copenhagen_Bram sofar: but what about full disk encryption?
17:47 sofar sure, get a hard drive that does it for you
17:47 Copenhagen_Bram what?
17:47 sofar https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/20286/how-secure-is-intel-ssd-encryption
17:47 Copenhagen_Bram why would i need a hard drive that encrypts my data? i can do that with software
17:48 Copenhagen_Bram it's called a luks partition
17:48 red-001 it's a lot faster
17:48 sofar software full disk encryption isn't something you need libreboot for
17:48 sofar it works on every linux system anyway
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17:49 Copenhagen_Bram sofar: well what kind of intel laptop would you recommend to me? and will its wifi and graphics card work properly on a linux-libre kernel?
17:50 sofar if you want zero proprietary firmware, no, it won't work
17:50 Copenhagen_Bram do you know a nice laptop that has something better than the GMA 4500 MHD but will still work properly with Trisquel or Parabola installed?
17:50 sofar if you're not a zealot then every intel laptop with intel HD graphics will work
17:51 sofar trisquel? parabola? I don't even know these distros
17:51 sofar [ADVERTISEMENT] https://clearlinux.org/ [/ADVERTISEMENT]
17:52 sofar lol
17:52 red-001 </html>
17:52 sofar but anyway, Intel HD laptops .... I think they go from 200$ nowadays
17:53 sofar https://www.google.com/search?q=intel+laptop+celeron
17:53 sofar 149$ lol
17:53 sofar geesh 135$
17:54 Copenhagen_Bram sofar: trisquel and parabola are part of this list https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.en.html
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17:54 red-001 ah GNU
17:54 sofar any standard set by `GNU` people is irrelevant
17:55 Copenhagen_Bram and maybe I am a zealot tinfoil hat about software. But why isn't openness the default?
17:55 sofar I'll listen to the FSF, but gnu.org... boo :)
17:55 red-001 if it's not obscure it's not worth using
17:55 Copenhagen_Bram hmm I thought gnu.org was part of the FSF
17:55 rubenwardy None of those distros are relevant
17:56 sofar GNU is sponsored by the FSF
17:56 sfan5 your best are older thinkpads, afaik they can work with libreboot
17:56 sofar not part of
17:56 Copenhagen_Bram > The Free Software Foundation recommends and endorses these GNU/Linux distros
17:56 sfan5 your best bet*
17:56 Copenhagen_Bram ah
17:56 rubenwardy I bet some of them even support Hurd  *vomits*
17:56 sofar look
17:56 sofar personally
17:56 sofar if you want to make a *difference*
17:56 sofar for the future
17:56 sofar don't go digging into 10year old hardware
17:57 sofar reward manufacturers that *today* make hardware that is reasonably "free" and has open source drivers and no restrictions on firmware distribution
17:57 sofar mom&pop shops that go dumpster diving to feed the tinfoil frenzy are predatory in many ways too, just as bad, possibly worse
17:58 Copenhagen_Bram how so?
17:58 sofar because they're appealing to people who are willing to pay top dollar for something that essentially has no market value anymore
17:59 Copenhagen_Bram hmmmmmmmmm you might have a point there
17:59 sofar https://www.ebay.com/p/Lenovo-T400-16in-500GB-Intel-Core-i3-4th-Gen-1-7GHz-4GB-Notebook-Laptop-Black-80LT00H6US/222408232
17:59 sofar 300$ on ebay for a 10 year old laptop
17:59 red-001 uh
18:00 Andrey01 Generally, i`ve printed particle_def[3] in debug.txt and it prints all fields that starting from index 2 with tables, but passed index 1
18:00 red-001 ebay is the worst sometimes
18:00 sofar red-001: it was kinda easy to find one that expensive :)
18:00 red-001 yeah that's what I mean
18:00 red-001 they seem to prey on ignorance
18:01 sofar Copenhagen_Bram: the underlying desire to remove security risks is completely sensible, however
18:01 sofar so I'm not discounting that for some people, this is a reasonable decision
18:01 Copenhagen_Bram red-001: yeh, i wonder what alternatives there are
18:02 sofar however, unless you're exposing yourself to immense, terrible security risks on a daily basis, you are better off using *NEW* hardware that has been secured for *TODAYS* security risks
18:02 Copenhagen_Bram hmm. But why do they need proprietary drivers?
18:02 sofar Intel laptops with Intel HD graphics doesn't need proprietary drivers
18:03 rubenwardy I've never needed them
18:03 rubenwardy Intel drivers are foss
18:03 sofar you can run OSS drivers on many radeon and nvidia cards too (at a loss of performance, but still)
18:03 sofar many wifi cards are OSS drivers
18:03 Copenhagen_Bram sofar: so trisquel would run on one of them?
18:03 sofar any linux distro would run on them
18:03 sofar at least, it should
18:04 sofar unless they don't like firmware
18:04 Copenhagen_Bram sofar: even linux-libre distros? hmm.
18:04 sofar if you knock out firmware you're going to be very limited
18:04 Copenhagen_Bram I think I've heard that word 'firmware' somewhere in my repos
18:04 red-001 do GPU manufacturers release documentation on how to interface with the card or are all those drivers reverse engineered?
18:04 sfan5 lol, as if
18:04 Copenhagen_Bram so yeh I think they allow firmware, just not proprietary firmware...
18:05 * Copenhagen_Bram looks up firmware
18:05 sfan5 red-001: nouveuau for example is entirely reverse engineered
18:05 sofar radeon is based on specs
18:05 sofar afaicr
18:06 red-001 ah so it's a bit of a mixed bag
18:06 sofar Intel publishes everything
18:07 sofar there are also vendors out there that you can't even get an OSS driver for
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18:21 entuland !mod matrix
18:21 MinetestBot entuland: Could not find anything.
18:21 entuland great
18:21 Copenhagen_Bram sofar: what if my problem isn't the old graphics card? I've seen minetest run at 60fps but then it suddenly drops to 5 fps
18:22 Copenhagen_Bram I think if it was just that my graphics card isn't powerful, wouldn't it be at 5 fps all the time?
18:22 Copenhagen_Bram oh and prboom now jitters
18:22 Copenhagen_Bram although it briefly played smoothly just after I rebooted
18:23 sfan5 mesh generation might be slow on your gpu
18:23 Copenhagen_Bram hmm how do I test that
18:23 Copenhagen_Bram and why do things play smoothly at first
18:25 sfan5 press f5 (twice?) to bring up the statistics
18:25 sfan5 if your game lags while num_processed_meshes is high, that's it
18:25 Copenhagen_Bram alright. What do I look for, besides the dismal framerate?
18:25 rubenwardy What happens if you run out of graphics memory?
18:26 Krock also F6 will give you some more information
18:26 Copenhagen_Bram ooh I press f6 sometimes, it's like a *lot* of information that I don't understand. Hmm
18:26 Copenhagen_Bram I guess I'll run minetest now
18:27 Copenhagen_Bram fps 5
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18:29 Copenhagen_Bram drawtime 70 or 80
18:30 Copenhagen_Bram dtime_jitter 100.5%
18:30 Copenhagen_Bram v_range 20.0 (lol)
18:30 Copenhagen_Bram RTT whatever that means = 0.002
18:30 Copenhagen_Bram actually don't know what dtime_jitter is
18:31 Copenhagen_Bram rubenwardy: how do i tell how much graphics memory i have?
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18:33 Sur3_ I accidentally typed /clear and it crashed my server o.O
18:34 Krock congrats
18:34 Sur3_ ahh ok seems to be the morecommands mod
18:35 Sur3_ i think it expected an argument and only had a nil value because I didnt give a player name ^^
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18:37 Krock Copenhagen_Bram, Google/DDG will tell you the right method of how to see how much video RAM you've got. The higher the texture pack resolution is, the more RAM it will use -> and more draw time accordingly
18:37 Sur3_ but it cleard my own inv..
18:37 Sur3_ weird
18:38 Krock dtime_jitter is basically how much your client step intervals vary. 0% would be optimal here to have a very smooth (or at least regular) gameplay
18:39 Copenhagen_Bram ah, so 100% is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike smooth
18:39 Copenhagen_Bram over 100% i mean
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18:41 Copenhagen_Bram wb rubenwardy
18:41 Copenhagen_Bram thanks Krock. What's RTT?
18:42 Krock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round-trip_delay_time (long name in URL)
18:42 Cornelia Round Trip Time
18:42 Krock Fix for it is in progress: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/7428
18:42 Krock because these 0.002s shouldn't be there all the time
18:43 Krock the F5 graphs show up more precise values for that
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18:59 Andrey01 What does this error mean: attempt to index upvalue 'items_to_drop_list2' (a nil value)?
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19:05 Copenhagen_Bram huh, got 11fps playing vanilla minetest
19:05 Copenhagen_Bram oh i must also note that it seems to slow down other things on my computer
19:06 Krock that means that the variable given in the error was either not defined, is unavailable in the current scope or was set to nil
19:06 Krock Copenhagen_Bram, also experienced that with the nouveau driver with two OpenGL applications open
19:09 Copenhagen_Bram Krock: hmmm. Does it run fine with just one openGl application open?
19:11 Krock well, the performance was not optimal so I switched back to the proprietary driver
19:12 Krock but with one application it ran quite faster
19:13 Copenhagen_Bram i guess free drivers aren't as good as the proprietary ones???
19:13 Copenhagen_Bram you know what where do i learn how to program graphics engines?
19:14 Copenhagen_Bram maybe i'll just make a really good DooM-based software engine for minetest
19:14 Copenhagen_Bram and start an organization dedicated to making drivers and games that run on old, less proprietary hardware
19:21 Sur3_ ok the error was triggered in this line: count = count + (clear(name, "armor",  itemstring))
19:21 Sur3_ it said arithmetic on nil value
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19:21 Krock clear() must return a number
19:21 Krock hi est31
19:22 Krock s/hi/wb/
19:22 Sur3_ ah yes found it
19:22 Sur3_ there are return nil in clear..
19:23 Sur3_ I'll replace them by zeroes then maybe..
19:24 Krock count = count + (clear(name, "armor",  itemstring) or 0)
19:24 Krock solves your issue too
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20:50 Astrobe Can someone explain to me the weird fetish some people have for admin privs and moderator positions?
20:50 Out`Of`Control fetish???
20:50 Out`Of`Control Astrobe: anyone ask for extra privs ban
20:56 rubenwardy Astrobe: power
20:57 rubenwardy and something to make them feel better about their dull lives
20:57 rubenwardy +insignificant
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