| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:00 |
thexyz |
there actually is but no one cares |
| 00:00 |
sapier |
still what you see in ios android windows and even linux if you use gnome or kde are no longer the old directorys know to most of us |
| 00:00 |
VanessaE |
why does minetest even give two shits *what* the directory name is for a particular mod? |
| 00:01 |
Menche |
not allowing spaces in modnames would be practical, i have *no* idea why dashes aren't allowed |
| 00:01 |
sapier |
those are "virtual folders" that could be anything ... a plain collection of files, a cloud drive your ipad |
| 00:01 |
iqualfragile1 |
ah, got it |
| 00:01 |
Warr1024 |
doing a recursive search and just detecting any "mod.txt" files or something would be an interesting way to make mod installation a bit more idiot-resistant... |
| 00:01 |
Menche |
(i *hate* folder names with spaces) |
| 00:01 |
ShadowNinja |
VanessaE: To enforce the modname:itemname convention I imagine. |
| 00:01 |
Menche |
ShadowNinja: that is a good reason to not allow colons, but not dashes |
| 00:02 |
iqualfragile1 |
me too but whats worse is when people put / or \ in it |
| 00:02 |
sapier |
but folders just was an example how mind concept of current users has changed compared to what some of us expect to be reality |
| 00:02 |
VanessaE |
ShadowNinja: and yet, how many complaints, as kaeza said, do we tend to get about mods not working just because the folder name is "wrong"? |
| 00:02 |
Warr1024 |
you could just specify the mod name inside the mod code, instead of inferring it from the dir structure... |
| 00:02 |
sapier |
i personally dislike those virtual folders too ;-) |
| 00:02 |
Menche |
and disallowing dashes is especially annoying because of how github appends "-master" to it's zip archives |
| 00:02 |
VanessaE |
Warr1024: the mod name is already specified as part of any item or node being registered |
| 00:02 |
Warr1024 |
VanessaE: ah, then in that case, the folder name already IS unnecessary...? |
| 00:02 |
Menche |
and because of users like likwid who add "-master" because they assume it's a convention :P |
| 00:02 |
thexyz |
renaming a directory is a very hard task it seems |
| 00:03 |
sapier |
allowing some additional characters won't fix the real problem |
| 00:03 |
Warr1024 |
I thought that -master thing was a github thing. |
| 00:03 |
Menche |
Warr1024: it is |
| 00:03 |
VanessaE |
though I suppose there's an argument for mods that don't define anything, but rather *re*define stuff. in which case, how would the engine go about deciding what the mods' names are? |
| 00:03 |
Menche |
and it breaks the mod loading |
| 00:04 |
VanessaE |
thexyz: for a lot of people, it seems to be. These are the same people who try to run Minetest from within the zip and then complain that nothing gets saved. |
| 00:04 |
Warr1024 |
for certain platforms, you could probably package minetest with an installer to avoid the "run-from-zip" issue |
| 00:04 |
sapier |
the zip problem is easyly solved by making an installer available |
| 00:05 |
VanessaE |
yes |
| 00:05 |
kaeza |
thexyz, renaming directory is not hard, but newcomers are like 'WTF?? this mod does not work!'" |
| 00:05 |
Warr1024 |
and as for unzipping mods into the right places, you could simplify the user experience by loading mods directly from zips, and not giving two shits about folder structure... |
| 00:05 |
kaeza |
and spam the forums with the same questions |
| 00:05 |
Menche |
needing to rename a folder to load a mod is stupid. |
| 00:05 |
VanessaE |
Warr1024: now THAT would be useful |
| 00:05 |
sapier |
where should a newcommer know he needs to rename it? reaing 3000 line lua-api.txt? |
| 00:05 |
kaeza |
Warr1024, +1000000 |
| 00:06 |
sapier |
finding one of felt 40 wiki pages? |
| 00:06 |
VanessaE |
users need to fucking learn to use their computers, but until they do, we gotta try to make it a little easier for them |
| 00:07 |
ShadowNinja |
How about assuming all folders to be modpacks unless they contain a init.lua? |
| 00:07 |
VanessaE |
(even if, to us, it's *already* easy) |
| 00:07 |
kaeza |
ShadowNinja, that wouldn't solve the problem |
| 00:07 |
sapier |
that attitude only drives users away ... if we want to attract them we need to help em |
| 00:08 |
Menche |
what is the reason for disallowing dashes in modnames? |
| 00:08 |
sapier |
requesting each mod to add a "modinfo.txt" to main folder would solve the problem if adding mods by gui would be possible |
| 00:08 |
Warr1024 |
I sort of understand that one; when sanitizing input and I know that SOME characters may cause problems, I tend to just block all but a small set. |
| 00:09 |
sapier |
that modinfo could contain a small description to be displayed as well as "real" modname. minetest itself could copy the mod to this folder |
| 00:10 |
PilzAdam |
bye |
| 00:10 |
iqualfragile1 |
bb |
| 00:12 |
kaeza |
why was the mod name enforcing mechanism added in the first place? |
| 00:12 |
NekoGloop |
so that item names didn't ever conflict |
| 00:12 |
sapier |
I guess it's been meant to avoid name collisions between mods |
| 00:12 |
sapier |
which is obviously a good idea |
| 00:13 |
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NekoGloop left #minetest |
| 00:13 |
kaeza |
well... you can already do that anyway |
| 00:13 |
sapier |
no you cant |
| 00:13 |
Warr1024 |
one nice thing about requiring the mod name to be the same as the folder (directory :-D) name is that it prevents mod authors from overwriting each others' folders, despite having the "mod name" being the same... |
| 00:14 |
kaeza |
sapier, if you design a "foomod", you will prefix all items with "foomod:" |
| 00:14 |
sapier |
more important is you can be sure if mods have differen't names they won't overwrite other mods items/nodes ... if you didn't enforce this you'll always have name collision problems |
| 00:15 |
sapier |
in theory any modder will do this while in reality it'll be called "default:wheat" |
| 00:15 |
Warr1024 |
aside from using a naming convention like com.gmail.authorname.modname or something, I don't see how you'll avoid eventually having a name collision between one of the many, say, "hunger" mods out there... |
| 00:15 |
kaeza |
if other user creates another mod called "foomod", well, that is a conflict between modders |
| 00:16 |
sapier |
yes but this conflict is quite obvious |
| 00:16 |
Warr1024 |
not that it makes sense exactly to install more than one mod with the same purpose, but it may make sense to try to blend trimmed-down versions of each... |
| 00:16 |
sapier |
I once had a problem because of using "debug" as prefix for debug functions |
| 00:16 |
kaeza |
if you create, say, a "wool" mod, you won't be able to use it along with "wool" mod in minetest_game/common |
| 00:16 |
sapier |
until realizing debug is already a lua module which I didn't use bot other mods did |
| 00:17 |
sapier |
yes so you know a t once you'll get problems with those two mods |
| 00:17 |
sapier |
and not wonder why all your wool nodes are undefined or wrong now |
| 00:18 |
Warr1024 |
it would be nice if there were some way to make conflicting mods fail more gracefully than that... |
| 00:18 |
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BackupCoder joined #minetest |
| 00:18 |
sapier |
I don't see any realistic option to do so |
| 00:19 |
sapier |
if there's a naming conflict how to decide which one to be correct? and how to decide what this decision causes in the now "wrong" mod |
| 00:19 |
iqualfragile1 |
ksnapshot has an upload to imgurl function |
| 00:19 |
Warr1024 |
true |
| 00:19 |
iqualfragile1 |
thats cool |
| 00:19 |
kaeza |
you may as weel want your mod to override a default one |
| 00:19 |
kaeza |
well* |
| 00:19 |
Warr1024 |
simplest solution I can come up with is to pick some arbitrary, but stable, method to pick one mod, and disable the rest that conflict. |
| 00:20 |
sapier |
which might cause all mods depending on default to fail |
| 00:20 |
kaeza |
well, that is the modder's problem :) |
| 00:20 |
Warr1024 |
heh, ouch :-) |
| 00:20 |
VanessaE |
Warr1024: I believe kahrl was working on that |
| 00:21 |
iqualfragile1 |
gn8 |
| 00:21 |
sapier |
that'll be problem of those modders failing due to some other modder doing wrong ... still what exactly would be benefit of allowing all names? |
| 00:22 |
Menche |
could minetest use the folder name before the first dash as the modname and ignore the rest? that would fix the problem of github adding "-master" to the zip archives |
| 00:22 |
VanessaE |
Menche: wouldn't work either, some mods don't follow that naming convention |
| 00:22 |
sapier |
still what's benefit of this? |
| 00:22 |
kaeza |
no more posts about "error loading init.lua: ..../minetest/mods/minetest/foomod-master/init.lua:123: blah" ? |
| 00:22 |
Menche |
VanessaE: how wouldn't it work? |
| 00:23 |
VanessaE |
Menche: some existing mods have username-modname"-master", others are modname"-master", still others are "minetest-mod-"modname |
| 00:23 |
sapier |
yes but still users wouldn't know where to put the mod |
| 00:24 |
Warr1024 |
just ignore folder names and use modinfo.txt or init.lua to determine the mod name... |
| 00:24 |
sapier |
so you need to assist them for this ... any usefull option doing this would be able to fix the folder name too |
| 00:24 |
Menche |
so? you could name it "foomod", "foomod-myfork", or "foomod-master" and the modname would always be "foomod" |
| 00:25 |
sapier |
and you wouldn't recognize sapierscoolmod is colliding with sapiersevencoolermod |
| 00:25 |
VanessaE |
Menche: with your idea, "Minetest-Worldedit" -> "Minetest", instead of just "worldedit". |
| 00:25 |
kaeza |
any error in mod code is the modder's fault. error because folder is named wrong is not |
| 00:25 |
Menche |
VanessaE: it would be ignored for modpacks, of course |
| 00:26 |
VanessaE |
sure, but Worldedit isn't a modpack is it? |
| 00:26 |
kaeza |
modders are expected to know how the engine works (at least a bit) |
| 00:26 |
sapier |
ok you wouldnd realize kaezascoolmod colliding sapierscoolmod ... of course YOUR mod is wrong not mine |
| 00:26 |
Menche |
VanessaE: it has to be, it has a dash in it |
| 00:26 |
Warr1024 |
of course, you could avoid the naming problem without changing ANY code right now by repackaging all mods as modpacks... |
| 00:26 |
VanessaE |
well true, good point |
| 00:26 |
VanessaE |
but you still get my point |
| 00:26 |
Menche |
not really |
| 00:26 |
Menche |
i think making it a modpack was just a workaround |
| 00:27 |
VanessaE |
I've seen examples of all three naming conventions in the wild, for plain old mods.. |
| 00:27 |
Menche |
pardon me for a minute as a look closer at worldedit |
| 00:27 |
kaeza |
Warr1024, that defeats the whole purpose of individual mods |
| 00:28 |
kaeza |
let's repackage everything into a modpack consisting of a single individyal mod |
| 00:28 |
Warr1024 |
true, it IS a workaround. |
| 00:28 |
Menche |
VanessaE: if a dash is in the name, it has to be a modpack. my idea wouldn't apply to modpacks |
| 00:28 |
Warr1024 |
of course, if you know enough to make a modpack, you know enough to break apart the existing one-mod modpacks. |
| 00:29 |
Warr1024 |
it's a cheap, quick and dirty solution that alleviates somewhat the folder naming problem for end-users, while not requiring the attention of core devs. |
| 00:29 |
VanessaE |
Menche: right, but a large percentage of regular old mods are distributed with folder names that fall into one of the three classes I described. All three of those classes would fail with your idea, unfortunately. |
| 00:29 |
kaeza |
Warr1024, <PilzAdam> that's hacky |
| 00:29 |
sapier |
I still think all this is useless if core had a gui for adding mods |
| 00:29 |
Menche |
how? they can't have dashes |
| 00:29 |
VanessaE |
Menche: exactly. |
| 00:29 |
VanessaE |
but they have them anyway |
| 00:29 |
VanessaE |
forcing users to rename them |
| 00:30 |
Menche |
so they crash on startup. how would my way be worse? |
| 00:30 |
VanessaE |
your way wouldn't solve the problem, that's how :) |
| 00:30 |
Menche |
VanessaE: the fault is with the modders. the fix is to make the modders change it. |
| 00:31 |
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| 00:31 |
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StrayBytes left #minetest |
| 00:31 |
Warr1024 |
As I understand it, it's the fault of hosts like github that make up their own folder names at will... |
| 00:31 |
Menche |
if they don't change it, then the fix is to move it to "old mods" and have someone fork it if they want it to work |
| 00:31 |
Warr1024 |
modders COULD solve that by offering hand-made zip downloads |
| 00:31 |
Warr1024 |
but personally that would drive me nuts |
| 00:31 |
VanessaE |
Warr1024: that's true too, and I've asked them before to make that configurable. they have not seen fit to do so. |
| 00:31 |
kaeza |
so let's summarize: what are the pros and cons of the name enforcing mechanism? |
| 00:31 |
Warr1024 |
I'd rather just have users pull my code from git. |
| 00:32 |
kaeza |
Warr1024, ORLY? |
| 00:32 |
Menche |
my way would allow adding suffixes that are just for human reading |
| 00:32 |
sapier |
if you release a stable version warr1024 instead of expecting users to always test latest version this wouldn't be that bad |
| 00:32 |
Warr1024 |
sapier: you mean a stable version of my hypothetical mod? |
| 00:32 |
Menche |
for example, if I want to make my own version if vines mod, i could call it vines-menche, and the modname would be vines |
| 00:32 |
sapier |
those who want latest version are most likely capable of renaming a folder |
| 00:33 |
Menche |
it would be a replacement of original vines, so they wouldn't be installed at the same time |
| 00:33 |
sapier |
and common users would download that stable prepackaged version |
| 00:33 |
kaeza |
Warr1024, tell Joe Random Average User that he needs to download a git client, and "git clone" (or GUI alternative) |
| 00:33 |
Warr1024 |
true. however, I find it much easier in general to find, and work with, hosting for git repos that will automatically make zips, compared to manually making them and finding some file locker to reliably serve it... |
| 00:33 |
sapier |
mobf for example supplies a 8.5 mb stable zip, gitgub version is .. hmm don't even know exactly but I guess >25mb |
| 00:33 |
Warr1024 |
kaeza: I'm talking more about the use-case of having github or gitorious build the archive for you |
| 00:34 |
sapier |
cause github version contails lots of raw data not required to use mobf |
| 00:34 |
Warr1024 |
sapier: I'd consider mobf to be a bit of a special case at that scale :-) |
| 00:34 |
kaeza |
Warr1024, blame github for deciding to name the folders *inside* the zip |
| 00:35 |
kaeza |
it wouldn't be bad if they just made "foomod-master.zip" containing "foomod" folder |
| 00:35 |
sapier |
even if mobf is a special case creating one zip every 3 months shouldn't be too bad for any mod developer |
| 00:35 |
Warr1024 |
kaeza: true, though it would certainly be nice if minetest could just accept it no matter how github mangles it. |
| 00:35 |
kaeza |
well... that was my original point :) |
| 00:35 |
sapier |
warr1024 if minetest accepts it you'll get more strange error about things simply not working |
| 00:36 |
Warr1024 |
sapier: that's assuming that the modder is only releasing a new "stable" every few months; personally, if someone found a bug in a mod I'd published and advertised stable support for, I'd fix it in that branch and do a maint release... |
| 00:36 |
kaeza |
sapier, like? |
| 00:36 |
sapier |
like some node not beeing available some entity being replaced ... |
| 00:36 |
Menche |
i typically only push a commit to my mods when I've tested it, and I'd rather not make a new "stable" release with each commit |
| 00:36 |
Warr1024 |
sapier: when I said "accept," I meant to imply *without* subsequent strange errors :-) |
| 00:36 |
sapier |
I release more stable versions too of course but way less than github commits |
| 00:37 |
kaeza |
blame the modder for not writing right object names |
| 00:37 |
Menche |
so i'd like people to be able to use github's master archive |
| 00:37 |
Warr1024 |
I usually like to have a master (dev), testing, and release branch. |
| 00:37 |
sapier |
yes I want a self programmin game too warr1024 but accetping any name will result in strange errors there's no way of avoiding this |
| 00:38 |
Warr1024 |
if I find a bug in release, I rewind testing to the tip of release, commit the fix to testing, test the fix, then fast-forward release to where testing is now. |
| 00:38 |
sapier |
there's no use in blaming anyone ... it doesn't help if kaeza is guilty mod won't work either |
| 00:38 |
Warr1024 |
sapier: wait, you mean any characters in the MOD name, or the FOLDER name? |
| 00:39 |
sapier |
currently folder and mod name are linked there's no way of changing this without getting strange errors |
| 00:39 |
Warr1024 |
I thought the problem here was the folder name, since mod authors have control over the mod name, but the folder names get mangled... |
| 00:39 |
kaeza |
ehm... I don't understand that statement |
| 00:39 |
Warr1024 |
there's NO way of changing this? |
| 00:39 |
sapier |
kaeza you're always talking about blaming someone ... blaming did never fix any bug |
| 00:40 |
kaeza |
blame harder then |
| 00:40 |
Warr1024 |
personally, I prefer to fix bugs with a commit |
| 00:40 |
sapier |
no modname is required prefix for all nodes and entities |
| 00:40 |
VanessaE |
sapier: sadly, neither will this conversation :-/ |
| 00:40 |
sapier |
and for lua names only a special subset of characters is allowed |
| 00:41 |
sapier |
vanessae you're to pessimistic |
| 00:41 |
VanessaE |
sapier: I'm a realist |
| 00:41 |
kaeza |
I still don't understand what does directory name have to do with mod namespace |
| 00:41 |
sapier |
me to I don't expect this conversation to fix any problems until tomorrow |
| 00:42 |
sapier |
directory name currently defines mod namespace |
| 00:42 |
sapier |
unless you add a new way of defining it (which will never be as obvious as directory name) you can't make any character available in directory name |
| 00:43 |
kaeza |
again, what does directory name have to do with mod namespace |
| 00:43 |
kaeza |
? |
| 00:43 |
sapier |
its it definition |
| 00:43 |
sapier |
what does your name have to do with kaeza |
| 00:43 |
sapier |
yes you could add another way of defining a namespace |
| 00:44 |
kaeza |
what is the *real* problem with defining foomod:foonode in a mod whose folder name is myfoomod? |
| 00:44 |
sapier |
modname.txt for example |
| 00:44 |
kaeza |
well... that could be an option |
| 00:44 |
sapier |
problem is you hide conflicts |
| 00:44 |
kaeza |
or perhaps Lua way of doing things |
| 00:45 |
sapier |
if you add a mod called coolmod1 you can be sure it won't add any node conflicts to your mod coolmod2 |
| 00:45 |
Warr1024 |
I sort of like the idea of being able to have mods redefine stuff from other mods that way... |
| 00:46 |
kaeza |
meh I give up |
| 00:46 |
sapier |
this idea sounds nice at first but you won't like it anymore if you had to look for a bug because some insane mod redefined one of your entities |
| 00:46 |
kaeza |
even if we come to an agreement, some core dev will just say no |
| 00:46 |
VanessaE |
kaeza: how do you propose to solve the issue of a mod that doesn't actually define anything under its own namespace? |
| 00:46 |
VanessaE |
where does that mod get its name from? |
| 00:47 |
kaeza |
VanessaE, the Lua way |
| 00:47 |
VanessaE |
which would be...? |
| 00:47 |
kaeza |
module "foomod"; |
| 00:47 |
sapier |
and what order do mods redefine entities and nodes? |
| 00:47 |
sapier |
who is the one actually defining it? |
| 00:47 |
VanessaE |
kaeza: in init.lua or something? |
| 00:47 |
kaeza |
yep |
| 00:47 |
VanessaE |
ok, that's fair. |
| 00:48 |
sapier |
no it's not |
| 00:48 |
sapier |
you can remove the prefix check in this case |
| 00:48 |
sapier |
won't be any difference |
| 00:48 |
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| 00:49 |
VanessaE |
sapier: you're not listening.... if I provide mycoolmod, and name its folder "foobarmod", how does the engine know it's called "mycoolmod"? |
| 00:49 |
kaeza |
and why should the engine care about that in the first place? |
| 00:49 |
sapier |
it shouldn't and deny loading of invalid mod |
| 00:49 |
VanessaE |
nevermind that this is a completely illogical say to do the folder name. |
| 00:50 |
VanessaE |
way* |
| 00:50 |
sapier |
ok vanessae how do you ensure a mod doesn't replace another mods entities and nodes? |
| 00:50 |
VanessaE |
kaeza: it shouldn't - but it still needs to know what to call the mod, hence your 'module "mycoolmod"' idea. |
| 00:50 |
Warr1024 |
I would guess the engine would just see an init.lua, try to load it as a mod, and check the name of the module it just loaded... |
| 00:50 |
kaeza |
sapier, blame the modder for not paying attention |
| 00:50 |
VanessaE |
sapier: by not getting stupid and installing conflicting mods to begin with? |
| 00:50 |
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| 00:51 |
kaeza |
and what VanessaE said |
| 00:51 |
sapier |
and now tell me how do i know if two modules conflict? |
| 00:51 |
Warr1024 |
I still blame github for renaming shit without my permission :-) |
| 00:51 |
kaeza |
let's blame everyone! |
| 00:51 |
VanessaE |
sapier: same way as now - by seeing that something unexpected is happening with a given item/mob/node/whatever |
| 00:51 |
kaeza |
sapier, with the current way, you are blaming the user for not renaming the mod |
| 00:51 |
sapier |
great vanessae you really have to much time |
| 00:52 |
sapier |
or you never did debug an application containing code of different programmers |
| 00:52 |
VanessaE |
sapier: do I have too much time, or do you just not spend *enough* time on that particular area? |
| 00:52 |
VanessaE |
sorry, but this is an area where I will not budge |
| 00:53 |
VanessaE |
if a person doesn't have time to do it right, they shouldn't be doing it at all |
| 00:53 |
kaeza |
sapier, fun fact: you can already redefine other mod's items. this isn't fort knox |
| 00:53 |
VanessaE |
indeed, a couple of my mods do that. |
| 00:53 |
sapier |
I can format your drive kaeza fun fact too |
| 00:54 |
kaeza |
stay on topic please |
| 00:54 |
sapier |
still why are you all focused to that damn modnames instead of adding a userfriendly way of adding a mod |
| 00:54 |
sapier |
copying a mod ... guys that was userfriendly ages ag |
| 00:54 |
sapier |
o |
| 00:54 |
VanessaE |
sapier: because figuring out the issues with naming mods is a lot easier than coding a UI to install them via? |
| 00:55 |
sapier |
no it isn't |
| 00:55 |
sapier |
you're introducing whole new erorr classes if your suggestion is realized |
| 00:55 |
VanessaE |
well then code something :) |
| 00:55 |
Warr1024 |
yay pull reqs ftw |
| 00:55 |
VanessaE |
if it's so easy to code a mod installer UI, then do it |
| 00:55 |
kaeza |
sapier, errors you can already cause |
| 00:56 |
sapier |
I stopped coding more than 5 line improvements for minetest when I realized big improvements aren't accepted by core developers |
| 00:56 |
sapier |
it's a difference if I have to run 1000miles to kill someone or do it instantly |
| 00:57 |
kaeza |
wat |
| 00:57 |
Warr1024 |
haha, yes, highly wat |
| 00:57 |
VanessaE |
sapier: um...strawman argument |
| 00:57 |
sapier |
just because something is already possibly it doesn't mean it's good |
| 00:57 |
sapier |
yes exactly as silly as always telling "but it's allready possible" for any silly thing |
| 00:58 |
sapier |
it's never been ment to be possible if it was meant to be possible prefix check would've never been added |
| 00:58 |
Warr1024 |
would it really? |
| 00:58 |
VanessaE |
fixing dashes in a modname would probably be little more than a one or two line change to the engine. making it ignore the folder when a "module" line is included in init.lua (or perhaps a separate file declaring the mod name) is probably also a fairly small change |
| 00:58 |
VanessaE |
in both cases, surely a lot less code than a mod installer/manager UI |
| 00:59 |
VanessaE |
(and we already have the manager part) |
| 00:59 |
sapier |
yes and both cases effectifly rendering prefix check useless |
| 00:59 |
VanessaE |
yes? so? that's the whole damn point |
| 00:59 |
VanessaE |
to get rid of the prefix check |
| 00:59 |
Warr1024 |
zip loader would be more than a few lines, but if it's REALLY worth it, it could be maintained as a fork until it's proven well enough to justify a merge... |
| 01:00 |
sapier |
ok do it and all errors caused by name conflicts will be fixed by those removing the check |
| 01:00 |
VanessaE |
sapier: or by those who are stupid enough to ignore "Conflicts" and similar declarations on the mods' forum pages |
| 01:01 |
sapier |
so I will have to rename all my mods if some stupid programmer creates a new mod abusing my mods ... thanks alot |
| 01:01 |
Warr1024 |
isn't that already the case? |
| 01:01 |
kaeza |
sapier, if your mod is a well established one, blame the new modder |
| 01:01 |
Warr1024 |
or... you could just put up with it ;-) |
| 01:01 |
sapier |
no as currently noone ever will be able to install both |
| 01:02 |
Warr1024 |
they can just make your mod a dependency and then mess with it on init... |
| 01:02 |
sapier |
I give up ... basic concepts of avoiding errors seam to be too complicated to implement within minetest |
| 01:03 |
sapier |
have you ever heared of beeing better not to make mistakes than fixing them after happening? |
| 01:03 |
Warr1024 |
the only way to make software avoid any errors is pretty much to avoid doing anything interesting. |
| 01:03 |
VanessaE |
*sigh* |
| 01:03 |
VanessaE |
sapier: mod conflicts are a fact of life, whether folder names matter or not |
| 01:04 |
VanessaE |
tell the idiot who wrote the mod that conflicts with yours to fix his code |
| 01:04 |
VanessaE |
problem solved. |
| 01:04 |
VanessaE |
first past the post is how this needs to be handles. |
| 01:04 |
VanessaE |
handled*( |
| 01:04 |
sapier |
so why are there airbags and esp systems in cars if accidents still happen? |
| 01:04 |
kaeza |
wat |
| 01:04 |
VanessaE |
sapier: strawman argument |
| 01:04 |
VanessaE |
stay on topic. |
| 01:05 |
Warr1024 |
um, inverse strawman argument? |
| 01:05 |
sapier |
no it's just an exaple YOU tell just because mistakes happen you shouldn't add anything reducing mistakes |
| 01:05 |
VanessaE |
sapier: some kinds of mistakes can't be fixed that easily. |
| 01:05 |
sapier |
moreover you even suggest REMOVING something reducing mistakes |
| 01:05 |
VanessaE |
any proposal you come up with is only going to add more work for the modder |
| 01:05 |
|
roboman2444 joined #minetest |
| 01:06 |
kaeza |
sapier, I'll just make a new "animalmaterials" mod and see how well the name enforcing mechanism helps with that |
| 01:06 |
Warr1024 |
wait, what? reducing mistakes? |
| 01:06 |
sapier |
and looking for strange bugs is less work for modders? |
| 01:06 |
Warr1024 |
I thought the problem was that it was INCREASING mistakes for users |
| 01:06 |
VanessaE |
sapier: we already have to look for strange bugs anyway |
| 01:06 |
Warr1024 |
i.e. by causing something that they're doing that's not REALLY wrong to be interpreted as a mistake, i.e. naming the mod folder wrong. |
| 01:06 |
sapier |
yes because we already have errors we can remove any error check |
| 01:07 |
sapier |
same argument as you already mentioned some minutes ago |
| 01:07 |
kaeza |
sapier, so a mod not working because the damn folder is named wrong is not a "strange" error? |
| 01:07 |
Warr1024 |
I think the argument is that the error check doesn't really do anything. |
| 01:07 |
VanessaE |
no I mean removing the error checks (as you call it) *won't introduce new errors* |
| 01:07 |
VanessaE |
Warr1024: exactly. |
| 01:07 |
Warr1024 |
it's like putting airbags in cars to mitigate accidents, but then having them go off at random while you're trying to drive and *causing* accidents. |
| 01:07 |
VanessaE |
the "error check" is useless! |
| 01:08 |
sapier |
ok I'll replace some of moretrees nodes by entities in next mobf release |
| 01:08 |
sapier |
of course I'll hide that code |
| 01:08 |
sapier |
you'll never find out who did it |
| 01:08 |
VanessaE |
Warr1024: for a correct car analogy, it's like having airbags go off in a 5pmh collision with a bollard in a parking lot, when you're the sort of driver who would NEVER get behind the wheel without wearing a seat belt. |
| 01:08 |
Warr1024 |
I thought we were talking about accidental problems, not malicious ones? |
| 01:09 |
VanessaE |
sapier: bisect your mods tree until you find the collision. same way we sort it out now. |
| 01:09 |
sapier |
cause I'm gonna use curl to download an application saved in temp and modify code on the fly |
| 01:10 |
kaeza |
sapier, ehm... |
| 01:10 |
sapier |
imho prefix check helps a lot avoiding naming collisions you don't have same oppinion I accept this but I'll never be same opinion you are |
| 01:10 |
VanessaE |
sapier: stop trying to invent new ways to break the proposal - your suggestions *are already a problem right now!* |
| 01:11 |
VanessaE |
you're literally not suggesting anything that can't already be a problem nopw |
| 01:11 |
VanessaE |
now* |
| 01:11 |
sapier |
what suggestions? |
| 01:11 |
VanessaE |
[05-08 21:09] <sapier> cause I'm gonna use curl to download an application saved in temp and modify code on the fly |
| 01:11 |
VanessaE |
can't we already do this now? |
| 01:11 |
Warr1024 |
yes |
| 01:11 |
sapier |
that's just been a short summary of all those open issues with minetest |
| 01:11 |
VanessaE |
[05-08 21:08] <sapier> ok I'll replace some of moretrees nodes by entities in next mobf release |
| 01:12 |
VanessaE |
and this? |
| 01:12 |
Warr1024 |
as I understand it, you can link in native code. |
| 01:12 |
kaeza |
Warr1024, yes you can |
| 01:12 |
sapier |
I won't do this because I'm not someone to destroy others work but there are ppl out there doing exactly this |
| 01:12 |
OldCoder |
Hi. My VPS hard disks had a failure. I have fixed things. Please visit my worlds if you know them and tell me if all is well. |
| 01:12 |
OldCoder |
Restarting now |
| 01:13 |
VanessaE |
sapier: then those users will surely be avoided |
| 01:13 |
VanessaE |
just like we do now |
| 01:13 |
kaeza |
Warr1024, IRC mod install a backdoor, but don't tell anyone OK? |
| 01:13 |
kaeza |
;) |
| 01:13 |
Warr1024 |
I think that the question of how to prevent malicious mod code is probably beyond the scope of minetest... |
| 01:13 |
VanessaE |
Warr1024: agreed, this is way out of scope right now |
| 01:13 |
sapier |
I can't even count how often mobf has been blamed for other modders errors ... removing prefix check wont reduce number of future false blames |
| 01:13 |
Warr1024 |
kaeza: heh, I can't get the damn thing to work due to what is supposedly a bug in Lua 5.1. |
| 01:13 |
VanessaE |
sapier: stop changing the subject! |
| 01:14 |
VanessaE |
this isn't about who blames mobf or doesn't. |
| 01:14 |
VanessaE |
this is about making mods easier for your "average dumb user" to install |
| 01:14 |
sapier |
I didn't change subject I believe removing prefix check won't life easier for modders but worse |
| 01:15 |
kaeza |
and having check in place makes worse the lives of users |
| 01:15 |
Warr1024 |
is it more important to make life easier for modders, or users? |
| 01:15 |
kaeza |
(and in the end also the modders) |
| 01:15 |
sapier |
imho average dumb users benefit isn't big enough to quantify lost time on modders side |
| 01:15 |
VanessaE |
the only people whose lives are likely to be affected negatively, are the idiots who insist on installing incompatible, conflicting mods - like plantlife being installed on the same world as the old nature pack for exmaple. |
| 01:15 |
VanessaE |
sample* |
| 01:15 |
VanessaE |
EXAMPLE* damn it... |
| 01:16 |
VanessaE |
(I hate my hands) |
| 01:16 |
sapier |
yes of course if you install only one modders mod you'll never get any conflict |
| 01:16 |
Warr1024 |
making lives easier for users MAY also make life easier for modders, though, as you won't have to field as many basic support questions... |
| 01:16 |
VanessaE |
sapier: in my example, plantlife conflicts with the old nature pack because the latter contains an old, outdated copy of plants_lib. |
| 01:16 |
Warr1024 |
but on the other hand, modders tend to have more technical know-how than the average user, so probably need less help in general... |
| 01:17 |
sapier |
I assume writing 200 times "rename to xzy" is way faster than looking for 20 naming conflict bugs |
| 01:17 |
kaeza |
sapier, again, what naming problems? |
| 01:17 |
VanessaE |
the whole point is to not have to tell the user to rename the folder at all! |
| 01:17 |
VanessaE |
because THEY SHOULD NOT NEED TO! |
| 01:18 |
sapier |
for example node names and entity names aren't allowed to be same |
| 01:18 |
VanessaE |
it's stupid to require it when it could have been done a better way somehow |
| 01:18 |
VanessaE |
sapier: so you propose that a mod should not be allowed to redefine a node in another mod? |
| 01:18 |
Warr1024 |
That'd be harsh. |
| 01:18 |
VanessaE |
(node/entity/item/whatever) |
| 01:19 |
sapier |
if some silly person replaces your node by an entity for example an invisible entity you'll have a lot of time to find why your node isn't placed correctly |
| 01:19 |
sapier |
currently this isn't allowed |
| 01:19 |
sapier |
without abusing bugs |
| 01:19 |
VanessaE |
so then how is pipeworks supposed to be able to make a chest visibly connect to a pneumatic tube with textures suitable for the purpose? the only way to do that is to redefine it. |
| 01:20 |
sapier |
or add a separate chest |
| 01:20 |
VanessaE |
um, no |
| 01:20 |
Warr1024 |
what about existing ones? |
| 01:20 |
VanessaE |
wrong in every possible way |
| 01:20 |
sapier |
no YOU believe it's wrong |
| 01:20 |
VanessaE |
it is NOT a bug to be able to redefine a mod! |
| 01:20 |
VanessaE |
er a node |
| 01:20 |
sapier |
ok now take your idea a little bit further |
| 01:21 |
sapier |
what if another mod wants to redefine SAME node? |
| 01:21 |
VanessaE |
then the last mod to execute is the one that takes precendence. |
| 01:21 |
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hmmmmm joined #minetest |
| 01:21 |
VanessaE |
precedence* |
| 01:21 |
VanessaE |
just like now. |
| 01:21 |
Warr1024 |
it would be nice to be able to ensure that all behaviors stack and combine instead of wiping out existing ones... |
| 01:21 |
VanessaE |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L160 |
| 01:21 |
sapier |
and this is correct predictable behaviour? |
| 01:22 |
VanessaE |
there. the API declares it in black and white that redefining a node is explicitly supported. |
| 01:22 |
sapier |
I assume I have to rename all my mods to zzzzzzzzzz___mymod to ensure it's loaded last |
| 01:22 |
kaeza |
sapier, that is hacky |
| 01:22 |
VanessaE |
or how about you don't redefine nodes if you don't need to? |
| 01:22 |
kaeza |
the correct way is to (opt)depend on the mod you want to modify |
| 01:22 |
sapier |
yes but if you insist of mods load order defining redefine order exactly this will happen |
| 01:22 |
VanessaE |
or just stop bitching about multiple mods trying to redefine nodes/items/etc |
| 01:23 |
sapier |
ok lets define only vanessaes mods are allowed to redefine nodes |
| 01:23 |
VanessaE |
*facepalm* |
| 01:23 |
sapier |
if you allow redefineing exactly this will happen |
| 01:23 |
VanessaE |
ALLOW? |
| 01:23 |
VanessaE |
IT'S IN THE FUCKING API! |
| 01:24 |
VanessaE |
the API explicitly says this is an allowed practice |
| 01:24 |
sapier |
i want to modify default x wants to modify default and z too ... what should optdep help? |
| 01:24 |
VanessaE |
eh? |
| 01:24 |
* Kacey |
hides in the corner from VanessaE's coming rage |
| 01:24 |
kaeza |
sapier, VanessaE redefines mesecons stuff in homedecor... seen any problems? |
| 01:24 |
|
Warr10241 joined #minetest |
| 01:25 |
sapier |
no cause I don't have homedecor nor mesecons because of having to many undefinded items in game |
| 01:25 |
* VanessaE |
hands sapier some punctuation |
| 01:25 |
sapier |
still I think the only thing we are same oppinion is that we aren't same opinion |
| 01:26 |
sapier |
and I don't expect this to change |
| 01:26 |
VanessaE |
no one else has problems with it either, because I'm not so stupid as to blindly redefine something without a damn good reason |
| 01:26 |
kaeza |
sapier, maybe because most of us aren't interested in converting minetest into fort knox? |
| 01:26 |
sapier |
you said you're realistic not long ago ... i don't expect you to redefine but it'll happen for sure |
| 01:27 |
VanessaE |
(I "redefine" mesecons silicon only if it isn't already defined - so that my mod retains cross-compatibility with mesecons items that need silicon.) |
| 01:27 |
sapier |
yes I knew this argument coming again ... think about something new |
| 01:27 |
sapier |
meant kaeza |
| 01:28 |
sapier |
I think our primary goal is making install of mods more easy |
| 01:29 |
kaeza |
and removing the name check will help this a lot |
| 01:29 |
sapier |
i don't deny the name problem but imho the whole mod install process is so complicatid fixing one single small issue won't help significantly |
| 01:30 |
kaeza |
(not the name check, but the modname-foldername correspondence) |
| 01:30 |
sapier |
I won't tell again why this is same as removing name check |
| 01:30 |
Warr10241 |
if you want to make mod install easier, but don't think the core devs will merge in your mod interface into the game, then you could make a *standalone* tool and distribute it separately. |
| 01:30 |
sapier |
there are already numerous standalone tools |
| 01:31 |
Warr10241 |
what's wrong with them? |
| 01:31 |
sapier |
no one uses them |
| 01:31 |
Warr10241 |
anything you can wrap around your mod like an installer? |
| 01:31 |
kaeza |
and they are cumbersome |
| 01:31 |
kaeza |
(read: use external tools like Python) |
| 01:31 |
Warr10241 |
yeah, portability will be a problem. |
| 01:32 |
sapier |
the only sane way of adding a commonly used mod installer is adding it to core |
| 01:32 |
Warr10241 |
I'm actually surprised to hear about people having mod install problems on Linux. |
| 01:32 |
sapier |
I assume most ppl having problems are windows |
| 01:32 |
kaeza |
Warr10241, again, it's because the newcomer does not know about the foldername=modname check |
| 01:32 |
Warr10241 |
if that's the case, then portability is less of a problem... |
| 01:32 |
sapier |
but as of ubuntu even in linux world there are plain users |
| 01:32 |
VanessaE |
installing a mod is not complicated, but it can be made simpler by not demanding every other user out there rename his or her mods. |
| 01:33 |
sapier |
vanessae just ask some ppl not working with computers for 20 years |
| 01:33 |
VanessaE |
sapier: within one year of receiving my first ever computer, I taught myself how to code, what a CPU is, what TTL is, how to interface to the outside world, ... if I could do that when I was only 12, so can others. |
| 01:34 |
Warr10241 |
VanessaE: sadly, it seems that those others are few... |
| 01:34 |
VanessaE |
but until people get their heads out of their asses, we should try to make it a little easier, but without dumbing the process own too far. |
| 01:34 |
sapier |
I'm glad you're a smart person ... but there a lot of ppl out there not willing to become computer experts |
| 01:34 |
sapier |
but they still are interested in playing |
| 01:35 |
VanessaE |
sapier: then they need to at LEAST learn what a folder is, how to use a file manager, etc. |
| 01:35 |
Warr10241 |
those non-smart people need a smart friend :-) |
| 01:35 |
sapier |
file managers are relicts of a dieing computer world |
| 01:35 |
VanessaE |
but since they won't, we have to help try |
| 01:35 |
VanessaE |
a dying relic? |
| 01:35 |
VanessaE |
um, so why does every OS come with at least one? |
| 01:36 |
kaeza |
one thing is true: this "software" is used for amusement. users don't want to waddle through 40 page posts or topics or wikis when they want to play right now |
| 01:36 |
Warr10241 |
got one on my android tablet, had 2 on my phone... |
| 01:36 |
|
hmmmm joined #minetest |
| 01:36 |
sapier |
I haven't seen a classic file manager in android or ios |
| 01:36 |
VanessaE |
sapier: obviously you didn't look hard enough, see above. |
| 01:36 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: sit still, dammit :) |
| 01:36 |
sapier |
ok show me root folder with your android file manager |
| 01:36 |
kaeza |
I love his username |
| 01:36 |
Warr10241 |
Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 comes with a file manager built in. |
| 01:37 |
sapier |
with full file system access? |
| 01:37 |
Warr10241 |
it start you out in /sdcard, but you can chdir .. up to root |
| 01:37 |
Warr10241 |
of course, you aren't the root USER, but then again, I'm not root on any of my other machines either, in general... |
| 01:37 |
sapier |
wow how often will users do that? |
| 01:37 |
Warr10241 |
They generally won't need ot |
| 01:37 |
Warr10241 |
since if they're installing minetest, they'd probably put it in /sdcard :-) |
| 01:38 |
sapier |
yes most likely the won't even use the filemanager at all |
| 01:38 |
Warr10241 |
not at all... unless you, say, download a file in the browser or something. |
| 01:38 |
sapier |
whats it's us either? pictures are viewed by special apps |
| 01:38 |
ShadowNinja |
sapier: I use root browser. |
| 01:38 |
sapier |
apps are installed by appstore |
| 01:38 |
sapier |
docs are saved in cloud |
| 01:38 |
Warr10241 |
appstore doesn't have minetest in it |
| 01:38 |
sapier |
so why use a file manager? |
| 01:38 |
Warr10241 |
problem solved :-) |
| 01:39 |
sapier |
mintest is to complicated and won't be installed by anyone ;-) problem completely solved |
| 01:39 |
kaeza |
minetest is too |
| 01:40 |
kaeza |
that was the original point of this conversation |
| 01:40 |
sapier |
still my suggestion is adding a mod installer to core that one could fix any folder rename problems too |
| 01:40 |
kaeza |
have fun writing :) |
| 01:40 |
sapier |
I assume this wouldn't be no more than 2 days of work |
| 01:41 |
sapier |
+ about 1 week of rebasinging until giving up to get it merged |
| 01:41 |
VanessaE |
sapier: two days to code it, and six months to get it merged maybe :) |
| 01:41 |
sapier |
as I said 1 week of rebasing |
| 01:42 |
sapier |
I already spent more time for scriptapi fix rebasing than for implementing it |
| 01:43 |
sapier |
yes it's a big change and yes not everyone understands why this needs to be done ... still it'd be a step in right direction |
| 01:44 |
kaeza |
I like the part about removing the env: thing |
| 01:44 |
sapier |
yes but I assume it's already outdated again .... and as no one even realized add_item was missing I can be next to sure noone tested it |
| 01:45 |
sapier |
adding a change that big while noone is interested in testing is quite risky |
| 01:46 |
Warr10241 |
wish I could offer to help with the testing, but I've already automated mod installation with perl scripts :-) |
| 01:46 |
sapier |
scriptapi split isn't about installing mods |
| 01:46 |
Warr10241 |
sorry, I must have missed a topic switch then. |
| 01:46 |
VanessaE |
sapier: regarding your split, actually c55 and others want to merge it, enough so that they're withholding other stuff until it goes in |
| 01:47 |
VanessaE |
not sure why they're waiting |
| 01:47 |
sapier |
test would be using any function available via lua ... 100% coverage is quite difficult |
| 01:47 |
sapier |
yes I've been told so about 3 weeks ago if I remember correctly that's why I rebased it |
| 01:48 |
VanessaE |
so finish rebasing it and bug the shit out of the core devs? |
| 01:48 |
sapier |
but I assume I would have to rebase it again as within those weeks some other things have been added that might conflict |
| 01:48 |
VanessaE |
afaik, they've been avoiding major changes to the scriptapi stuff so as not to conflict with your code |
| 01:48 |
sapier |
rebasing is finished for about 3 weeks now |
| 01:49 |
sapier |
but as I said I can't test any single function and variant on my own scriptapi has to much functions by now |
| 01:50 |
VanessaE |
then just test what you can, whatever obviously might be affected |
| 01:50 |
VanessaE |
anything near the boundaries of the various splits I'd say |
| 01:50 |
sapier |
anything could be affected ;-) most critical part is env as it's completely changed but some other things too |
| 01:50 |
VanessaE |
or just download my game and play around with it for a few days. |
| 01:50 |
VanessaE |
if you find no errors there, then your split worked. |
| 01:51 |
sapier |
I don't think you use everything too vanessae |
| 01:51 |
VanessaE |
no, but among all the mods in my game, enough functions are surely being used that it'll be a fair test |
| 01:52 |
sapier |
and I already testet lots of mods but still there's no guarantee |
| 01:53 |
VanessaE |
Try anyway. Not all mods in it are up-to-date, but most are. |
| 01:53 |
VanessaE |
50MB download: http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/VanessaE_Game.tar.bz2 |
| 01:54 |
sapier |
I've got some other things to do too ;-) so I won't be able to run around for days |
| 01:54 |
VanessaE |
(anything in there that's a github-based mod is a git clone, so you may be able to 'pull') |
| 01:55 |
VanessaE |
..as needed to bring in further updates). |
| 01:55 |
sapier |
github mods |
| 01:55 |
VanessaE |
yup |
| 01:55 |
sapier |
:-/ I hate those crazy bleeding edge stuff |
| 01:55 |
VanessaE |
but all are properly-named. |
| 01:56 |
VanessaE |
bleeding edge? well, most are stable, afaik. |
| 01:56 |
|
kaeza joined #minetest |
| 01:57 |
sapier |
I've been trying to setup a set of mods working on my 0.4.6 test server last weeks it's anoying to find out which mods are compatible to 0.4.6 ... while others aren't compatible to latest dev |
| 01:57 |
VanessaE |
just run the latest dev, it's not like it's any less stable than 0.4.6 |
| 01:58 |
sapier |
its quite more stable because 0.4.6 is crap ... someone denied to add all those memory leak errors |
| 01:58 |
* VanessaE |
looks at the latest overview map of her server. There are just WAY too many dandelions and cotton here. someone fix the flowers abm damn it |
| 01:58 |
sapier |
still I release mods for stable versions to allow windows users to use them too ... so I have to focus on latest stable version |
| 01:59 |
sapier |
yes waterlillies are there way to often too |
| 01:59 |
VanessaE |
no, waterlilies are spawned at the density I wanted them to be at |
| 01:59 |
VanessaE |
all flowers are generated by the version of flowers mod that's bundled with common (so not under my control) |
| 01:59 |
sapier |
looks really strange if you're at same place for some time ... way too ... hmmm regular |
| 02:00 |
VanessaE |
sapier: your copy of plantlife is too old then. I fixed that bug ages ago. |
| 02:00 |
sapier |
I've used latest from about 2 or 3 weeks ago |
| 02:00 |
VanessaE |
then your map is too old ;) |
| 02:00 |
VanessaE |
waterlilies are nicely randomized now. |
| 02:00 |
VanessaE |
http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/images/VanessaE_World_Map.png |
| 02:00 |
VanessaE |
see all the green dots in the water? |
| 02:01 |
sapier |
no I don't say they're not random on small scale but on large scale they're regular again |
| 02:01 |
VanessaE |
those are bodies of water that have sand or dirt and which are no more than ~2 or 3 nodes deep |
| 02:02 |
sapier |
yes and in those areas waterlillies are quite regular |
| 02:02 |
VanessaE |
um, no...those look pretty random to me |
| 02:02 |
sapier |
it's just not as I expect waterlilies |
| 02:02 |
sapier |
they grow in groups not equaly distributed |
| 02:02 |
VanessaE |
it's easy enough to tweak the randomness spread a little more though |
| 02:02 |
VanessaE |
they're supposed to grow in groups. |
| 02:03 |
VanessaE |
they grow in shallow water only, and only in areas that are defined as "fertile" by the plants_lib mod |
| 02:03 |
sapier |
in the version I have there's exactly one waterlilly than some open water then next |
| 02:03 |
VanessaE |
your copy is outdated then |
| 02:03 |
sapier |
is there a version number in your mod? |
| 02:04 |
VanessaE |
I don't use version numbers, just release dates. |
| 02:04 |
VanessaE |
most recent commit was 12 days ago; most recent to waterlilies was 2 months ago and that was to fix a 6dfacedir bug |
| 02:04 |
sapier |
is the releasedate stored somewhere except folder name? |
| 02:05 |
sokomine |
oh? which mods are not compatible to 0.4.6? which ones do care about version at all? many mods just add some nodes and are relatively simple |
| 02:05 |
VanessaE |
not afaik but I don't use zips of my own mods, I use my local git repo. That map was generated with the current git of plants_lib and flowers_plus. |
| 02:05 |
VanessaE |
sokomine: anything that uses the new hud code |
| 02:05 |
Warr10241 |
ha, that's what I'm playing with right now... |
| 02:05 |
sokomine |
ah yes, memory leak errors...it seems the version i compiled after i noticed those leaks still had leaks in them |
| 02:06 |
VanessaE |
sapier: either you've got an extra, outdated copy somewhere, or you haven't explored enough of your map to notice the spawning pattern :) |
| 02:06 |
sapier |
don't get this personal vanessae but this is a release style I really hate, I don't update my server twice a week and have no chance what version is currently installed |
| 02:06 |
sokomine |
vanessa: just make dandelions and cottons useful for something so that players want to pick them up :-) |
| 02:06 |
VanessaE |
sokomine: dyes. |
| 02:06 |
VanessaE |
default dyes makes white and yellow dyes from those two |
| 02:07 |
sokomine |
mobf may be a bit special there with depending on version because it does a lot and needs latest versions to do exciting new stuff users (like me) want :-) the average mod is far less complex |
| 02:08 |
sapier |
still I hate if I don't have any chance to know what version is installed this is basic for any update mechanism no matter how it's done |
| 02:08 |
VanessaE |
sapier: git log is your friend. |
| 02:08 |
VanessaE |
that's how you find out the "version" |
| 02:08 |
sapier |
my server isn't even connected to internet vanessae |
| 02:08 |
Warr10241 |
I'm not much of a fan of release dates either; I prefer commit hashes... |
| 02:08 |
VanessaE |
otherwise I guess the zip filename maybe has the commit hash in it? |
| 02:08 |
VanessaE |
sapier: you don't need to be online to see the log. |
| 02:09 |
sapier |
I don't have a zip filename either after installing |
| 02:09 |
VanessaE |
afaik that's pulled from your local copy. |
| 02:09 |
Warr10241 |
something like 0.4.6.20130425.2dba8db98da6b would be nice, if a bit verbose :-) |
| 02:09 |
sokomine |
are those dyes now in default? |
| 02:09 |
VanessaE |
Warr10241: which is why my linux builds of MT have both a commit hash *and* a date :) |
| 02:09 |
VanessaE |
sokomine: they're in common, yeah |
| 02:09 |
sapier |
ok now I know why that small mods waste so much memory |
| 02:09 |
VanessaE |
so whatever games use that. |
| 02:10 |
sapier |
git log doesn't help I only see minetest gitlog |
| 02:10 |
VanessaE |
sapier: small price to pay to have the entire mod's history at your fingerrips. |
| 02:10 |
VanessaE |
sapier: cd into the mod's folder and 'git log' there. |
| 02:10 |
Warr10241 |
use git clone --depth or whatever if you don't want to pay that price. |
| 02:10 |
sapier |
vanessae I'm just a user of your mod ... it's history isn't of any interest to me ;-) |
| 02:10 |
sokomine |
fine :-) the colors are nice to play with. it's about time that there's a way to make colored wool that is not completely absurd (one server has the receipe to cook cactus to get blue...) |
| 02:11 |
VanessaE |
sapier: do you have plantlife/flowers or plantlife/flowers_plus? |
| 02:11 |
sapier |
still no info ... which is not surprising as I don't even have a .git folder in there |
| 02:11 |
sokomine |
sapier: which small mods? and why? |
| 02:11 |
sapier |
plantlife |
| 02:11 |
sokomine |
ah, ok, git log |
| 02:12 |
sapier |
flowers_plus hunglegrass plants_lib poisonivy in there |
| 02:12 |
VanessaE |
sapier: reading comprehension FAIL... do you have plantlife/flowers or plantlife/flowers_plus? |
| 02:12 |
sapier |
junglegrass |
| 02:12 |
VanessaE |
ok |
| 02:12 |
VanessaE |
you have flowers_plus. |
| 02:12 |
VanessaE |
so that's reasonably up-to-date then |
| 02:12 |
VanessaE |
so then you must have an old version of my flowers somewhere too - like Nature Pack maybe? |
| 02:12 |
VanessaE |
or I forget who else included a copy of it |
| 02:13 |
sokomine |
as to the folder name of mods...that confused me back when i started the game as well. my current solution to the mod problem is to have a minetest/mods/ folder with subfolders like 1-nature 1-building and so on which contain the unzipped versions - and a games/nature/mods which symlinks e.g. minetest/mods/1-nature/animals-strange-name-master-bla |
| 02:13 |
sapier |
hmm yes nature is here ... was to lazy to remove it completely after it messed up my world |
| 02:13 |
sokomine |
at least for linux that's a very convenient way |
| 02:13 |
sapier |
are new nodes compatible to the old ones? |
| 02:13 |
VanessaE |
sapier: that's why. Nature Pack has a badly-outdated version of plants_lib in it along with outdated flowers and junglegrass |
| 02:13 |
VanessaE |
yes, of course. |
| 02:14 |
Warr10241 |
I actually like installing mods via symlink so that the git submodules for the mods don't conflict with the submodule for minetest itself in the git repo I keep my server config in. |
| 02:14 |
sokomine |
vanessas mods usually do care about backward compatibility. it may be an issue for a few days sometimes but is usually fixed/solved soon |
| 02:14 |
sapier |
plants lib isn't in here I assume I already removed it but maybe flowers alone conflicts |
| 02:14 |
VanessaE |
sapier: if you have flowers without plants_lib, you have a BADLY outdated version |
| 02:15 |
VanessaE |
flowers sans plants_lib is ironzorg's old one, or perhaps one of my first rewrites of it. |
| 02:15 |
Warr10241 |
if you want easy mod installation, frankly I don't know if you can beat "git submodule update --init && make" |
| 02:15 |
sapier |
was plants_lib formerly called plants? |
| 02:15 |
VanessaE |
sapier: no. |
| 02:15 |
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| 02:15 |
VanessaE |
plants_lib is part of the plantlife modpack, which you seem to be mostly up-to-date with |
| 02:15 |
sokomine |
init and make? for minetest mods? |
| 02:15 |
sapier |
hmm maybe I should use some time to remove that damn nature mod |
| 02:16 |
VanessaE |
nature mod, or nature pack? |
| 02:16 |
sapier |
pack |
| 02:16 |
Warr1024 |
sokomine: I keep my server config in a git repo, and use submodules for minetest itself, and for all teh mods I use. |
| 02:16 |
VanessaE |
yep, nuke it |
| 02:16 |
VanessaE |
it's no wonder you have troubles :) |
| 02:16 |
sokomine |
nature_pack_controlled or other versions of nature are no longer needed |
| 02:16 |
Warr1024 |
sokomine: I have a small makefile that sets up the symlinks and rearranges everything :-) |
| 02:16 |
sapier |
i realized to late that this was the pack adding infinite growth |
| 02:16 |
sapier |
I already removed that part |
| 02:17 |
sokomine |
warr: ah. sounds fine :-) |
| 02:17 |
Menche |
i keep all my mods packages with my world |
| 02:17 |
Menche |
*packaged |
| 02:18 |
sapier |
maybe we should think about declaring mods in mod releases deprecated too |
| 02:18 |
sokomine |
the mods i use in a world a subject to change. that's also easier done with symlinks. it was a bit problematic for some time, but now with the common folder and game.conf therein, it works very well |
| 02:18 |
Menche |
i plan on offering a regularly updated world download at some point |
| 02:18 |
VanessaE |
I copy all of my mods from a separate "all of them" folder over to the server, wherein my "game" is built just before it is uploaded. |
| 02:18 |
Menche |
keeping the mods in worldmods will make it easier for others to use |
| 02:18 |
sokomine |
menche: that would be nice |
| 02:19 |
Warr1024 |
git submodules are *generally* safe, since all inited repos will have copies of the dependencies, even though they're not actually in the main repo history. |
| 02:19 |
Menche |
is there a way to disable a default mod from within the world? |
| 02:19 |
Warr1024 |
it just means that when you spin up an additional backup, you have to init the submodules too. |
| 02:19 |
Menche |
a lot of stuff on my server has lava and wood in close proximity |
| 02:19 |
Menche |
i have fire removed |
| 02:19 |
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| 02:19 |
sokomine |
menche: maybe it would be enough to allow players to download their buildings. i suggested to redcrab something like that...a mod that sends the buildings of a player to the email adress used there to get interact |
| 02:19 |
Menche |
i fired up the map backup on another computer... literally |
| 02:20 |
sokomine |
menche: urgs |
| 02:20 |
kaeza |
Menche, I think there was a new setting in minetest.conf to disable fire |
| 02:20 |
sokomine |
menche: if you create a new game and omit fire in that game.conf it ought to work |
| 02:21 |
Menche |
can a game be bundled with a world? |
| 02:21 |
kaeza |
you could add a mod to the world to set this setting to false no matter what |
| 02:21 |
kaeza |
yes |
| 02:21 |
sokomine |
yes, games are always bundled with a world. in world.mt the game is mentioned |
| 02:21 |
kaeza |
put it in worlddir/game |
| 02:21 |
Menche |
so, make the world use a custom gameid, and bundle the game in worldmods? |
| 02:22 |
kaeza |
nonono |
| 02:22 |
Menche |
just in the root of the world folder? |
| 02:22 |
kaeza |
put it in worlddir/game |
| 02:22 |
sokomine |
ah, ok, kaeza is suggesting a diffrent approach |
| 02:23 |
kaeza |
Menche, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L82 |
| 02:23 |
sokomine |
for a server, kaezas approach might be better (because then it's really bundled) |
| 02:23 |
sokomine |
what i was suggesting is more useful for singleplayer - if you want some worlds with a specific modset and others with another (what mt calls games) |
| 02:26 |
kaeza |
rawr, github does not list me as contributor :( |
| 02:26 |
kaeza |
(for lua_api.txt) |
| 02:27 |
kaeza |
isn't my one-line change good enough? :P |
| 02:30 |
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| 03:05 |
OldCoder |
NEWS: I forgot to chmod a directory tree. My worlds should be up again now. |
| 03:05 |
OldCoder |
Please try them and let me know |
| 03:09 |
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| 03:11 |
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| 03:11 |
ShadowNinja |
PING timeout it seems, any ops around? |
| 03:11 |
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| 03:12 |
VanessaE |
someone needs to add auto-op for that bot. |
| 03:12 |
Menche |
why do we have 2 bots? |
| 03:12 |
VanessaE |
because one can kick/ban flooders, the other doesn't |
| 03:12 |
ShadowNinja |
Only celeron55 has +f |
| 03:13 |
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| 03:13 |
ShadowNinja |
In fact ShadowBot can do everything that MinetestBot can do, but sfan5 wants to keep it. |
| 03:14 |
Menche |
!up minetest.ltmnet.com |
| 03:14 |
MinetestBot |
minetest.ltmnet.com:30000 is up (2.850ms) |
| 03:14 |
Menche |
so ShadowBot only responds when MinetestBot isn't on? |
| 03:14 |
ShadowNinja |
(Well except git commit reporting, that plugin doesn'g support python 3, I will have to write my own. |
| 03:14 |
ShadowNinja |
Menche: Yes, unless it is from me. |
| 03:15 |
ShadowNinja |
Menche: You can test it out in a PM or a few other channels. |
| 03:16 |
Menche |
what differences are there? |
| 03:16 |
Menche |
is there a list of supported commands? |
| 03:16 |
ShadowNinja |
ShadowBot: list |
| 03:16 |
ShadowBot |
ShadowNinja: Admin, Alias, Anonymous, AttackProtector, BadWordKick, BotYield, Brainfuck, Channel, ChannelLogger, ChannelStats, Conditional, Config, Dunno, Games, Google, MassHighlight, MessageParser, Minetest, Misc, Owner, Services, SimpleReply, String, Success, URL, User, Utilities, and Web |
| 03:16 |
ShadowNinja |
ShadowBot: list Admin |
| 03:16 |
ShadowBot |
ShadowNinja: capability add, capability remove, channels, clearq, ignore add, ignore list, ignore remove, join, nick, and part |
| 03:16 |
ShadowNinja |
etc. |
| 03:18 |
Menche |
heh, "Google" is colored when I asked for a list via PM |
| 03:19 |
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| 03:19 |
Menche |
darn, it ignores when you give 5 commands per minute? |
| 03:19 |
ShadowNinja |
Menche: Yes, a nice touch, I found a option to enable that in the config |
| 03:20 |
ShadowNinja |
ShadowBot: admin ignore list |
| 03:20 |
ShadowBot |
ShadowNinja: 'Rollem!~cinch c-71-197-240-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net' and '*!*@*.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net' |
| 03:20 |
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| 03:20 |
messa4 |
anyone here? |
| 03:20 |
Menche |
yeah |
| 03:21 |
khonkhortisan |
(the rest of us are hiding) |
| 03:21 |
* Menche |
ducks behind his desk |
| 03:21 |
ShadowNinja |
ShadowBot: admin ignore remove *!*@*.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net |
| 03:21 |
ShadowBot |
ShadowNinja: The operation succeeded. |
| 03:21 |
messa4 |
whats the diffrence between [when creating new world]: build, minetest, minimal development test adn survival? |
| 03:21 |
ShadowNinja |
Menche: Register with it. |
| 03:21 |
Menche |
how? |
| 03:21 |
khonkhortisan |
minimal barely has anything in it. It's good for testing, but don't use it for actual gameplay. |
| 03:22 |
ShadowNinja |
Menche: /msg ShadowBot help register |
| 03:22 |
Menche |
messa4: they're different games; build, minetest, and survival are very similar |
| 03:22 |
khonkhortisan |
minetest_game used to be all we had, but it was split into build and creative, with common being whatever isn't different. |
| 03:22 |
Menche |
messa4: i personally prefer "build", it has the most stuff |
| 03:22 |
messa4 |
whats diffrence between survival and build? |
| 03:22 |
khonkhortisan |
You need common, no matter what game you're using on top of it |
| 03:22 |
Menche |
in survival, you lose your inventory on death |
| 03:22 |
khonkhortisan |
survival is where the mobs would go if we had them by default |
| 03:22 |
Menche |
and have to go and get it |
| 03:22 |
VanessaE |
khonkhortisan, messa4: ...build and survival will all be merged back into one game (minetest_game) soon. |
| 03:22 |
ShadowNinja |
messa4: Very little currently. |
| 03:22 |
VanessaE |
and common |
| 03:22 |
khonkhortisan |
really? |
| 03:22 |
messa4 |
ahh |
| 03:23 |
Menche |
survival is also missing a bunch of stuff that is in build |
| 03:23 |
messa4 |
ok so its not implemented yet |
| 03:23 |
khonkhortisan |
So, I should just keep using minetest_game? |
| 03:23 |
messa4 |
thx |
| 03:23 |
Menche |
is "safe bones" the only diff between minetest & build? |
| 03:23 |
VanessaE |
khonkhortisan: use minetest_game but copy in all of the mods from common that aren't already being loaded |
| 03:23 |
Menche |
if so then i'd recommend minetest |
| 03:24 |
ShadowNinja |
Menche: No, it has renewable lava. |
| 03:24 |
Menche |
oh ok |
| 03:24 |
messa4 |
is there any official minetest server? |
| 03:24 |
khonkhortisan |
not right now |
| 03:24 |
VanessaE |
minetest has lots of servers, there's no one "official" one |
| 03:24 |
khonkhortisan |
modders being the main reason for that |
| 03:25 |
Menche |
argh, crontab -e on debian uses nano by default |
| 03:25 |
khonkhortisan |
If we could mod in-game, servers might not split so much |
| 03:25 |
khonkhortisan |
change your default? |
| 03:25 |
Menche |
go to servers.minetest.net to see a list |
| 03:25 |
khonkhortisan |
I would hope it uses the same editor as git commit |
| 03:26 |
Menche |
i just had to set EDITOR to vi, now it uses a sensible editor |
| 03:26 |
messa4 |
i wrote my own garbage collector for MT. where to upload it? |
| 03:26 |
khonkhortisan |
vi-m |
| 03:26 |
ShadowNinja |
Menche: vi? it's vim. |
| 03:26 |
messa4 |
just kidding. |
| 03:26 |
Menche |
? |
| 03:26 |
khonkhortisan |
it does leak memory |
| 03:27 |
messa4 |
vi is not the same like vim. vim is a clone of vi with a lot of additional stuff |
| 03:27 |
Menche |
yeah |
| 03:27 |
Menche |
haven't installed vim yet |
| 03:27 |
Menche |
but plain vi works |
| 03:27 |
messa4 |
im using vi on my computer (nvi from bsd ) |
| 03:27 |
khonkhortisan |
Well the answer anyway is to fork minetest on github, git clone it locally, commit your changes, push, then make a pull request. |
| 03:27 |
ShadowNinja |
A lot better IMO. |
| 03:27 |
khonkhortisan |
I've been using vim when I thought I was using vi - it's an alias |
| 03:28 |
messa4 |
yeah most modern users are like that |
| 03:28 |
messa4 |
try nvi from bsd, elvis, vim - then u can say that u worked with "vi" :) |
| 03:29 |
ShadowNinja |
Yes, Arch comes with plaim old vi, I made sure to imstall vim quickly, I had to use nano. |
| 03:29 |
Menche |
there are multiple vis? arch linux says it uses the "original" vi |
| 03:29 |
messa4 |
"The nex/nvi replacements for the ex/vi editor first appeared in 4.4BSD." |
| 03:29 |
khonkhortisan |
there's also wordwarvi |
| 03:29 |
messa4 |
Menche: of course that theere are a lot of vi versions |
| 03:29 |
messa4 |
but oryginal one [used in this century] came from BSD 4.x |
| 03:30 |
Menche |
i prefer vim, for multiple undo, syntax highlighting, autoindent, etc |
| 03:30 |
messa4 |
if you are using vi on bsd or linux nowdays and binary size its like 70kb - then u can be quiet suer that u are using nvi |
| 03:31 |
Menche |
"du" keeps insisting that `which vi` is 0 |
| 03:31 |
Warr1024 |
symlink to vim? |
| 03:31 |
Menche |
no |
| 03:32 |
messa4 |
can u just ls -l vi |
| 03:32 |
messa4 |
show us size |
| 03:32 |
Menche |
symbolic link to "ex" |
| 03:32 |
Warr1024 |
ah |
| 03:32 |
Warr1024 |
du only tells you how many blocks used |
| 03:32 |
Warr1024 |
if you want total bytes, stat |
| 03:33 |
messa4 |
just do ls -s vi |
| 03:33 |
khonkhortisan |
stat `which vi` |
| 03:33 |
Menche |
"ex" is 228K |
| 03:34 |
khonkhortisan |
Is there a programming languages that understands “smart quotes†as "regular quotes"? |
| 03:34 |
messa4 |
whats smart quotes? |
| 03:34 |
Warr1024 |
mine is 332,424 |
| 03:34 |
messa4 |
u mean windows like? |
| 03:34 |
khonkhortisan |
left/right quotes instead of ambidextrous ones |
| 03:34 |
messa4 |
Warr1024: then its propably vim |
| 03:34 |
Warr1024 |
OpenBSD 5.2 amd64 |
| 03:35 |
messa4 |
Warr1024: 332kb for nvi?! |
| 03:35 |
khonkhortisan |
My sentence had all three quotes in it |
| 03:35 |
Menche |
type ":syn enable", that will only work in vim |
| 03:35 |
messa4 |
khonkhortisan: they are not even displayed properly on my terminal |
| 03:35 |
Warr1024 |
what's it normally? |
| 03:35 |
Warr1024 |
the syn command is unknown. |
| 03:35 |
khonkhortisan |
My terminal displays them fine, I have my irc font so small I barely see a difference |
| 03:36 |
khonkhortisan |
I use urxvt |
| 03:36 |
Menche |
my vim binary is 2.4M |
| 03:36 |
messa4 |
Warr1024: |
| 03:36 |
Warr1024 |
? |
| 03:36 |
messa4 |
my nvi is 32640 bytes. 32k |
| 03:36 |
VanessaE |
messa4: http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/extra/Screenshot%20-%2005082013%20-%2011:35:50%20PM.png |
| 03:36 |
messa4 |
netbsd x64 |
| 03:36 |
VanessaE |
that's how they look when rendered properly. |
| 03:37 |
messa4 |
vanesas: |
| 03:37 |
Warr1024 |
/usr/bin/vi: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1, for OpenBSD, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), stripped |
| 03:37 |
Warr1024 |
yeah, it's 325kb, the only thing I can think of is that it must be some kind of busybox packed binary or something |
| 03:37 |
Warr1024 |
nlinks is 3. |
| 03:37 |
messa4 |
its impossible. most [except maybe IBM mainframe os/360 programs] expect source code to be in US ASCII for compatiblity reasons |
| 03:38 |
messa4 |
now if u will start using some fancy characters - it would be pain to work with such source code with chinese and israeli and smart quotes signs |
| 03:38 |
khonkhortisan |
which vi → /usr/bin/vi → /bin/vim → /etc/alternatives/vim → /bin/vim-normal: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.16, BuildID[sha1]=0x1ae954af3f851fd6a65f868e809135cca0a98893, stripped |
| 03:38 |
messa4 |
and not all compilers are using utf-8 |
| 03:38 |
VanessaE |
messa4: actually these days UTF-8 is fairly widely-accepted. |
| 03:38 |
VanessaE |
still, I hate those G*d damned 'smart' quotes :) |
| 03:38 |
messa4 |
still. no compilers will accept smart quote vs normal quote |
| 03:39 |
Warr1024 |
yeah, they show up as ?smart quotes? on my screen. |
| 03:39 |
khonkhortisan |
They are a real character, a use should be made for them |
| 03:39 |
messa4 |
it totally diffrent character for compiler - even if visially similar |
| 03:39 |
messa4 |
its* visually* |
| 03:39 |
khonkhortisan |
I hate replacement characters! It should show as a box with four hexidecimal characters, so you at least can find it. |
| 03:39 |
VanessaE |
I'm sure a preprocessor step could be added to translate them into 'real' quotes though |
| 03:40 |
Menche |
a #define? |
| 03:40 |
khonkhortisan |
ooh |
| 03:40 |
khonkhortisan |
people would hate my code if I did that |
| 03:40 |
messa4 |
just dont do it. |
| 03:40 |
khonkhortisan |
:) |
| 03:40 |
messa4 |
it would create shitload of problems. unforseen |
| 03:40 |
khonkhortisan |
wouldn't be that hard to undo, mass find/replace |
| 03:41 |
messa4 |
imagine if every program would use diffrent character instead quote. jewish star, cross, heart , smily face etc - crazy |
| 03:41 |
messa4 |
programmer* |
| 03:41 |
messa4 |
BUT |
| 03:41 |
messa4 |
i think |
| 03:41 |
khonkhortisan |
I don't like ascii, other people languages can't use it |
| 03:42 |
VanessaE |
<random_geek> CHALLENGE ACCEPTED. |
| 03:42 |
messa4 |
that it would be possible and quite easy to force vim to display normal quotes AS "smart quotes" |
| 03:42 |
messa4 |
khonkhortisan: are u kidding now? |
| 03:42 |
messa4 |
khonkhortisan: ascii is the MOST universal text format ever. |
| 03:42 |
messa4 |
then utf-8 |
| 03:43 |
khonkhortisan |
"Don't redefine your quotes in header files. That only goes in source files." |
| 03:43 |
khonkhortisan |
but it's so small |
| 03:44 |
messa4 |
it needs to be. compatiblity and simplicity :) |
| 03:44 |
hmmmm |
why would anybody use openbsd |
| 03:44 |
khonkhortisan |
it's more open than bsd |
| 03:44 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: why would anyone use windows? :) |
| 03:44 |
messa4 |
before ASCII every single computer had multiple encoding systems - not compatible or anything . ASCII changed it. and maked it all much much much more easier |
| 03:44 |
hmmmm |
because it's bundled with just about every computer |
| 03:44 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 03:44 |
Warr1024 |
openbsd was bundled on this one |
| 03:45 |
khonkhortisan |
Yet, we still use different line endings and a keyboard layout that prevents mechanical jamming. |
| 03:45 |
Warr1024 |
at least, after I bundled it myself after removing the factory debian install :-) |
| 03:45 |
VanessaE |
khonkhortisan: that theory has been somewhat debunked. |
| 03:45 |
messa4 |
khonkhortisan: nothing stops u from using dvorak keyboard today :) |
| 03:45 |
khonkhortisan |
I use a variant of it |
| 03:45 |
messa4 |
i know few ppl who do that |
| 03:46 |
khonkhortisan |
but it annoys me when I find a game with wasd controls and no way to change them |
| 03:46 |
messa4 |
khonkhortisan: dvorak is just about layout or its using non ascii characters too? |
| 03:46 |
VanessaE |
messa4: pah. I tried using a swedish keyboard once (a friend's laptop he'd brought to a geek con). The only differences there were two or three keys that were moved around...and even THAT was a bitch to use :) |
| 03:46 |
khonkhortisan |
just layout. I use a compose key for the special stuff |
| 03:46 |
BrandonReese |
I started using dvorak but I didn't have time to practice dvorak until I could type as fast as I can using qwerty |
| 03:47 |
khonkhortisan |
you must be busy :P |
| 03:47 |
messa4 |
VanessaE: tell me about it. I was living in poland, swizerland, and uk in past few years - every single of them are using diffrent layout of keyboard [even for stuff like ! @ $ etc]. it is PAIN to use it. thats why im using ONLY classical US-ASCII keyboard layout wherever i can :) |
| 03:47 |
messa4 |
too much pain and time wasted |
| 03:47 |
VanessaE |
hehe |
| 03:47 |
VanessaE |
and this was just a few mundane keys like / and @, and I think z also |
| 03:48 |
khonkhortisan |
I swapped caps lock and escape. |
| 03:48 |
messa4 |
now imagine that u are in corpo enviroment and u cant swap keys :D |
| 03:48 |
messa4 |
HELL |
| 03:48 |
VanessaE |
ick. |
| 03:48 |
messa4 |
and u spend 5 minutes to find "@" character :) |
| 03:48 |
khonkhortisan |
"I blocked the terminal because it was a security risk" |
| 03:48 |
Warr1024 |
you only need 11 keys, really |
| 03:48 |
VanessaE |
khonkhortisan: I rip that fucking thing off every keyboard I get |
| 03:48 |
Warr1024 |
the numpad and ALT |
| 03:49 |
VanessaE |
CAPS LOCK SHOULD BURN IN HELL. |
| 03:49 |
khonkhortisan |
don't do that! You can swap it out for a useful key! |
| 03:49 |
messa4 |
heh |
| 03:49 |
messa4 |
anyway. for me its US-programmer keyboard for life |
| 03:49 |
khonkhortisan |
I still haven't gotten alt keys to work the same way on a non-windows |
| 03:49 |
messa4 |
standard us-ascii one |
| 03:49 |
Warr1024 |
I wish US keyboard were standard-ish, at least |
| 03:50 |
messa4 |
they are |
| 03:50 |
Warr1024 |
like, why can't they all have the good \ and backspace arrangement? |
| 03:50 |
messa4 |
warr: thats just physical layout |
| 03:50 |
Warr1024 |
that's enough to be annoying |
| 03:51 |
messa4 |
why? |
| 03:51 |
Menche |
i use ALT as the modifier for my wm controls, using a mac keyboard that has command there is really annoying |
| 03:51 |
messa4 |
its standard since like 80" |
| 03:51 |
messa4 |
Menche: like for emacs? |
| 03:51 |
Menche |
for my window manager |
| 03:51 |
Warr1024 |
besides, everyone knows that alt isn't alt, it's meta. |
| 03:51 |
messa4 |
then u are right. emacs was designed for TOTALLY diffrent keyboard layout then modern IBM keyboards popular since 80" |
| 03:51 |
* khonkhortisan |
knew that |
| 03:51 |
Warr1024 |
:-) |
| 03:52 |
messa4 |
i once saw this keyboard and it makes sense - emacs was easier to use on it [no pain in pinky finger] |
| 03:52 |
khonkhortisan |
but I forgot why I knew that - emacs? enlightenment? |
| 04:02 |
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Warr1024 joined #minetest |
| 04:21 |
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ssieb joined #minetest |
| 04:45 |
VanessaE |
wtf? my 512px pack works again? what un-broke this time? ;) |
| 04:45 |
khonkhortisan |
we may never know... |
| 04:48 |
messa4 |
btw. does anyone here played Wurm game? |
| 04:49 |
* Menche |
just remembered he forgot to back up his server's player data |
| 04:49 |
Menche |
oh dear |
| 04:49 |
VanessaE |
uh oh |
| 04:50 |
ShadowNinja |
!up 67.241.154.164 |
| 04:50 |
ShadowBot |
ShadowNinja: 67.241.154.164:30000 seems to be down |
| 04:50 |
MinetestBot |
67.241.154.164:30000 is up (0.222ms) |
| 04:50 |
ShadowNinja |
What? |
| 04:50 |
khonkhortisan |
it can only handle one bot request at a time |
| 04:50 |
* Menche |
isn't doing too well today, forgot to remove the fire mod |
| 04:50 |
ShadowNinja |
Can someone test my server, it is back up. |
| 04:51 |
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rsiska joined #minetest |
| 04:51 |
ShadowNinja |
Menche: disable_fire=true |
| 04:51 |
VanessaE |
ShadowNinja: it seems to be working. |
| 04:52 |
ShadowNinja |
khonkhortisan: Most likely something broke in the 2 to 3 conversion. |
| 04:52 |
VanessaE |
waiting for media.. |
| 04:52 |
VanessaE |
and there it is. |
| 04:52 |
ShadowNinja |
OK, good. |
| 04:52 |
VanessaE |
couple of unknown blocks near me |
| 04:52 |
khonkhortisan |
conversion of what? |
| 04:53 |
khonkhortisan |
HAHAHA |
| 04:53 |
khonkhortisan |
> bin/minetest 67.241.154.164 |
| 04:53 |
ShadowNinja |
VanessaE: Near what? How many? |
| 04:53 |
VanessaE |
two of them, under the spawn platform |
| 04:53 |
khonkhortisan |
One of the items in the Singleplayer world list: |
| 04:53 |
khonkhortisan |
[--world parameter] {new] {minetest] |
| 04:53 |
VanessaE |
look in your log, I just punched one of them |
| 04:54 |
ShadowNinja |
Hmmm, I don't know what that is. |
| 04:54 |
VanessaE |
btw, where did you get these steel fences? |
| 04:54 |
ShadowNinja |
Oh, a mod I rmed because I didn't feel like fixing a bug in it. |
| 04:55 |
khonkhortisan |
http://postimg.org/image/6di7cte9n/ |
| 04:55 |
messa4 |
any jews here/ |
| 04:55 |
messa4 |
? |
| 04:55 |
ShadowNinja |
Custom mod, modified xfences. |
| 04:55 |
VanessaE |
messa4: why? |
| 04:55 |
VanessaE |
ShadowNinja: you should release it, they're kinda nice |
| 04:55 |
Menche |
now, to get my server announcing again |
| 04:55 |
messa4 |
VanessaE: u jewish? |
| 04:56 |
ssieb |
VanessaE: after seeing your map image, I'm curious to look at your server :-) |
| 04:56 |
VanessaE |
yes, why? |
| 04:56 |
messa4 |
VanessaE: shalom. do u know any irc channel with a lot of jewish ppl? |
| 04:56 |
VanessaE |
ShadowNinja: shit, something over here just caught fire |
| 04:56 |
khonkhortisan |
Someone please run "minetest localhost" from their command line and tell me what the singleplayer Select World list looks like |
| 04:56 |
VanessaE |
messa4: no, sorry |
| 04:56 |
ssieb |
it's funny how obvious the mapgen glitches are at that level |
| 04:56 |
messa4 |
:( |
| 04:56 |
messa4 |
hard to make jewish friends |
| 04:56 |
messa4 |
no jews on irc |
| 04:57 |
VanessaE |
ShadowNinja: looks like some griefing over here where I'm at, {-5.9,3.5,-79.1} |
| 04:57 |
VanessaE |
messa4: I don't generally bring it up is all, not usually on-topic for most chat's I'm ever a part of :) |
| 04:57 |
VanessaE |
ShadowNinja: server just shut down on me. |
| 04:57 |
khonkhortisan |
You mentioned the native form of kosher once |
| 04:58 |
VanessaE |
khonkhortisan: it was probably on-topic for the chat :) |
| 04:58 |
khonkhortisan |
kashrut |
| 04:58 |
messa4 |
btw. i love minetest |
| 04:58 |
ShadowNinja |
VanessaE: The fire should be fixed |
| 04:58 |
messa4 |
usually i hate open source games [not polished and lacking] but minetest is diffrent |
| 04:58 |
VanessaE |
khonkhortisan: that's the name of the set of dietary guidelines as a whole. to keep kosher is to follow those guidelines. |
| 04:59 |
ShadowNinja |
Lemme restore the map. |
| 04:59 |
VanessaE |
ShadowNinja: there's lava here. |
| 04:59 |
VanessaE |
looks like someone was fuckign around with lavacooling. |
| 04:59 |
ShadowNinja |
Yes, I know. |
| 04:59 |
ShadowNinja |
Where? |
| 05:00 |
khonkhortisan |
Lavacooling should turn into something other than stone by default, to difficult to get rid of otherwise |
| 05:00 |
VanessaE |
inside a building at -11,7,-78 |
| 05:00 |
messa4 |
is it possible to create buildings for minetest without game? [in text editor or something] |
| 05:00 |
VanessaE |
messa4: sorta, if you can grok the Worldedit file format. |
| 05:00 |
VanessaE |
it's plaintext |
| 05:00 |
ShadowNinja |
Well unless the fire did very little damage I will restore the map. |
| 05:01 |
VanessaE |
it destroyed the floor here I think. |
| 05:01 |
khonkhortisan |
I can't delete the [--world parameter] [new] [minetest] world |
| 05:01 |
ShadowNinja |
OK, shutdown I guess. |
| 05:03 |
messa4 |
guys: please implement monters, animals adn farming today ok? so i can download today |
| 05:03 |
messa4 |
thx |
| 05:03 |
VanessaE |
messa4: you can download a mod to get that stuff if you want it |
| 05:03 |
messa4 |
u work and i will go to play |
| 05:03 |
messa4 |
i know just kidding. cant wait until all good stuff will be included as default |
| 05:04 |
ShadowNinja |
VanessaE: Map restored. |
| 05:04 |
VanessaE |
checking it |
| 05:04 |
VanessaE |
ShadowNinja: do you use rollback protection? |
| 05:04 |
ShadowNinja |
Yes. |
| 05:05 |
VanessaE |
wow, good thing you disabled fire. the lava is still here, but the floor is intact now (looks like brown wool) |
| 05:05 |
ShadowNinja |
Just a setting thanks to my commit :-) |
| 05:06 |
messa4 |
it would be cool to have "slaves mod" |
| 05:06 |
messa4 |
u create plan in editor |
| 05:06 |
messa4 |
and they u realease slaves to build it |
| 05:06 |
messa4 |
then u need to feed them |
| 05:06 |
messa4 |
and make them shelter |
| 05:07 |
messa4 |
like in good old days |
| 05:07 |
messa4 |
of 1100 |
| 05:07 |
VanessaE |
ShadowNinja: sizable building here made entirely out of unknown blocks plus some lava columnds, {-11,6,-99} |
| 05:07 |
VanessaE |
-d |
| 05:07 |
ShadowNinja |
Yes, same mod. |
| 05:08 |
VanessaE |
shit, they're all over the place |
| 05:08 |
ShadowNinja |
I tried running the server as a restricted user, permissions are being difficult. |
| 05:08 |
VanessaE |
huge one over here next to the clipper ship |
| 05:09 |
ShadowNinja |
Yep, my bedrock mod. Built by tret. |
| 05:09 |
VanessaE |
I run my server as an unprivileged user also |
| 05:09 |
khonkhortisan |
haha who moved clouds to the loading menu? |
| 05:10 |
VanessaE |
khonkhortisan: zeg9 did |
| 05:10 |
khonkhortisan |
it looks good |
| 05:11 |
ShadowNinja |
VanessaE: How do you keep things sorted? |
| 05:11 |
VanessaE |
ShadowNinja: a script, proper group permissions, and gratuitous use of sudo therein :) |
| 05:12 |
VanessaE |
user minetest, group minetest, put myself in that group, and use sudo where that isn't enough |
| 05:12 |
ShadowNinja |
Hmmm, I will have to chmod g+w |
| 05:13 |
VanessaE |
I always use numbers, 664 and 775 in particular |
| 05:13 |
messa4 |
btw |
| 05:13 |
messa4 |
does anyone here have some old pc? [486 etc] |
| 05:13 |
messa4 |
i wonder if ucan run tiny map of mt on it |
| 05:13 |
VanessaE |
messa4: I have a commodore 128..does that count? ;) |
| 05:13 |
messa4 |
no |
| 05:13 |
VanessaE |
no, a 486 can't run MT I don't think. |
| 05:14 |
messa4 |
it would be cool to check how low we can go |
| 05:14 |
messa4 |
does mt support pure software renereer? and is it fast [like in quake 2?] or its just emulating 3d and its dead slow? |
| 05:14 |
messa4 |
renderer* |
| 05:14 |
VanessaE |
it does, but it's slow |
| 05:15 |
messa4 |
ok :( |
| 05:15 |
messa4 |
old games had native huge speed software renderers |
| 05:15 |
messa4 |
half life, quake 2 etc |
| 05:15 |
VanessaE |
anything that's pure software, by definition, is emulating 3d |
| 05:15 |
VanessaE |
but then old games had hardware-specific renderers |
| 05:15 |
ssieb |
on Fedora, minetest is setup with its own user and systemd unit files |
| 05:16 |
messa4 |
thats crazy |
| 05:16 |
messa4 |
creating whole account for single application? :) |
| 05:16 |
ssieb |
why, that's pretty standard |
| 05:16 |
messa4 |
unless u planning running server heh |
| 05:16 |
ssieb |
that's what it's for! |
| 05:16 |
messa4 |
its not standard for desktop solution. for server: sure |
| 05:17 |
ssieb |
that's why it has systemd unit files too |
| 05:17 |
VanessaE |
ShadowNinja: tip, use wrought iron fenceposts (rather than poles) when placing signs, they'll attach properly then. |
| 05:17 |
VanessaE |
(I haven't gotten around to adding signs-on-poles yet) |
| 05:18 |
ShadowNinja |
VanessaE: I am not the greatest builder, somone elses poles. ;-) |
| 05:18 |
VanessaE |
I'm fixing 'em :) |
| 05:20 |
Menche |
how do you disable fire? |
| 05:20 |
VanessaE |
delete the fire mod |
| 05:20 |
VanessaE |
ShadowNinja: your copy of travelnet mod is slightly outdated btw |
| 05:21 |
ShadowNinja |
Menche: disable_fire=true |
| 05:21 |
VanessaE |
or do that :) |
| 05:22 |
ShadowNinja |
I will update once I get privs and files sorted. |
| 05:22 |
messa4 |
can tree grow on desert sand? |
| 05:22 |
VanessaE |
dunno |
| 05:23 |
ShadowNinja |
messa4: No. |
| 05:23 |
Menche |
oh, fire was disabled, the existing fire just had to go out |
| 05:23 |
Menche |
well, my server is quite a mess |
| 05:24 |
ShadowNinja |
Yes, I didn't add anything fancy like a ABM to remove them, just the normal ABM. |
| 05:27 |
VanessaE |
ShadowNinja: you use luacontrollers here? is that safe? |
| 05:27 |
messa4 |
thx |
| 05:30 |
ShadowNinja |
VanessaE: Yes, functions, loops, etc, are disabled. |
| 05:30 |
ShadowNinja |
(And I love their usefulness) |
| 05:30 |
messa4 |
btw |
| 05:30 |
messa4 |
project is done in c++ and lua? |
| 05:31 |
ShadowNinja |
Command blocks not so safe but I don't feel like modifying my copy(feature request, a setting) |
| 05:32 |
VanessaE |
what, no screwdriver!? *grumble* |
| 05:32 |
VanessaE |
:) |
| 05:35 |
VanessaE |
jeez, lots of little bits of griefing here and there. |
| 05:35 |
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kaeza joined #minetest |
| 05:38 |
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ungali_mobile joined #minetest |
| 05:39 |
ShadowNinja |
VanessaE: I switched to minetest_game for now, you can repair greifing, and what was that script you use? |
| 05:39 |
VanessaE |
I'm working on the griefing and also a little build-out here and there where it looks like it was wanted. |
| 05:39 |
VanessaE |
I'll post the script in a few mins, but it's one I wrote for the purpose. |
| 05:40 |
VanessaE |
mainly it just copies mods around, deletes a few things, and packages it all up for distribution on my website |
| 05:40 |
ShadowNinja |
I fixed the bedrock mod btw(I think) |
| 05:41 |
ShadowNinja |
But I have to test before I push. |
| 05:42 |
ShadowNinja |
Is there a way to set the default mode for new files? |
| 05:42 |
VanessaE |
I think the umode command does that |
| 05:42 |
VanessaE |
been a while since I last used it though |
| 05:46 |
VanessaE |
ok, that's enough of that for now |
| 05:51 |
VanessaE |
http://apache.slashdot.org/story/13/05/09/003236/backdoor-targeting-apache-servers-spreads-to-nginx-lighttpd |
| 05:51 |
VanessaE |
oh real nice. |
| 05:51 |
VanessaE |
guess I should be glad I didn't bother to set up nginx for cache use :) |
| 05:53 |
ShadowNinja |
Hmmm, I havn't set up nginx yet. |
| 06:14 |
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| 06:26 |
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OldCoder joined #minetest |
| 06:26 |
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OldCoder joined #minetest |
| 06:40 |
ssieb |
they have to break into your server first before they modify the web server |
| 06:50 |
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kaeza joined #minetest |
| 06:55 |
* VanessaE |
pokes kaeza, just because. |
| 06:55 |
* kaeza |
puts http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=89117#p89117 on VanessaE's head :3 |
| 06:55 |
* VanessaE |
throws the spam in the trash |
| 06:56 |
* kaeza |
is bored |
| 06:56 |
* kaeza |
may actually play on VanessaE's server tonight |
| 06:56 |
VanessaE |
have fun :) |
| 06:56 |
VanessaE |
(barely anyone plays there anymore, no clue why) |
| 06:57 |
kaeza |
too many servers being created |
| 06:57 |
VanessaE |
I guess so |
| 06:58 |
sfan5 |
good moring |
| 06:58 |
sfan5 |
+n |
| 06:58 |
kaeza |
have you considered taking the word of our lord Survival into your heart? |
| 06:58 |
VanessaE |
mornin' |
| 06:58 |
kaeza |
:P |
| 06:58 |
kaeza |
morning sfan5 |
| 06:59 |
VanessaE |
Fuck survival, I wanna build something.â„¢ |
| 06:59 |
VanessaE |
:) |
| 06:59 |
kaeza |
:( |
| 06:59 |
* sfan5 |
had a dream about Microsoft creating a _low cost_ ARM tablet with XP |
| 06:59 |
|
ungali_mobile joined #minetest |
| 07:00 |
|
DMackey joined #minetest |
| 07:00 |
VanessaE |
sfan5: some dream :) |
| 07:01 |
* kaeza |
wants this instead: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLYSch_Mi58 |
| 07:01 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 07:02 |
kaeza |
my floor is still there :D |
| 07:02 |
VanessaE |
if he was REALLY crafty, he'd make it run SNES games ;) |
| 07:03 |
VanessaE |
oh wait |
| 07:03 |
VanessaE |
neat |
| 07:04 |
VanessaE |
kaeza: what floor? |
| 07:04 |
kaeza |
in your server |
| 07:04 |
VanessaE |
heh, I don't remember where you were building last :) |
| 07:05 |
kaeza |
and I don't remember where did I put my music box :( |
| 07:06 |
VanessaE |
you mean the orange one from the old server? |
| 07:06 |
kaeza |
yep |
| 07:06 |
kaeza |
(desert stone) |
| 07:06 |
VanessaE |
I never imported it. |
| 07:06 |
VanessaE |
gimme a few and I'll copy it in |
| 07:06 |
kaeza |
:(((((( |
| 07:06 |
kaeza |
np, I'm gonna build it bigger this time |
| 07:07 |
VanessaE |
you don't want the old one? |
| 07:08 |
VanessaE |
ah, found it |
| 07:08 |
kaeza |
don't worry about that |
| 07:08 |
VanessaE |
aw, I was about to save it |
| 07:09 |
kaeza |
well, if you want to, I don't mind :) |
| 07:11 |
ShadowNinja |
My server management script and !up updated to python 3. |
| 07:12 |
ShadowNinja |
ShadowBot: up 0gb.us |
| 07:12 |
ShadowBot |
ShadowNinja: 0gb.us:30000 is up (0.326ms) |
| 07:12 |
|
qznc__ joined #minetest |
| 07:12 |
ShadowNinja |
(socket now uses a bytes object) |
| 07:17 |
sfan5 |
!up 0gb.us |
| 07:17 |
MinetestBot |
0gb.us:30000 is up (0.416ms) |
| 07:20 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: Will MinetestBot use python 3? |
| 07:20 |
sfan5 |
not yet |
| 07:21 |
sfan5 |
but it may be able to |
| 07:22 |
ShadowNinja |
I had to give up commit reporting, I will have to write my own plugin for it now. |
| 07:28 |
|
meldrian joined #minetest |
| 07:36 |
|
whirm joined #minetest |
| 07:37 |
|
kaeza joined #minetest |
| 07:38 |
kaeza |
stupid modem |
| 07:38 |
VanessaE |
shit happens :) |
| 07:38 |
VanessaE |
sign in so I can make you owner of your land :) |
| 07:38 |
kaeza |
k |
| 07:38 |
VanessaE |
there we go |
| 07:38 |
|
Calinou joined #minetest |
| 07:39 |
ssieb |
what do you use for ownership? |
| 07:39 |
VanessaE |
node_ownership |
| 07:39 |
VanessaE |
my fork with admin override of course :) |
| 07:39 |
* ssieb |
looks it up |
| 07:39 |
kaeza |
grief on a creative server *genius* |
| 07:40 |
VanessaE |
yep, people actually do oit |
| 07:40 |
VanessaE |
i |
| 07:40 |
VanessaE |
it |
| 07:40 |
VanessaE |
shadow's server, too. |
| 07:40 |
Calinou |
hi |
| 07:40 |
kaeza |
I seriously don't understand what's the fun |
| 07:40 |
kaeza |
speaking of griefers |
| 07:40 |
kaeza |
o hai Calinou |
| 07:40 |
Calinou |
better, claim server to be hardcore but disallow griefing |
| 07:41 |
* Calinou |
was recently victim of that :< |
| 07:41 |
|
monkeycoder joined #minetest |
| 07:43 |
* kaeza |
does not understand why they added the 'fov' variable |
| 07:44 |
kaeza |
you cannot set it programatically per-client, and doing /set fov x requires admin privs :| |
| 07:57 |
ShadowNinja |
ops: restarting ShadowBot, ready for re-op? |
| 07:59 |
sfan5 |
ShadowNinja: MinetestBot is always ready |
| 07:59 |
ShadowNinja |
ShadowBot: quit |
| 08:00 |
|
ShadowBot joined #minetest |
| 08:00 |
sfan5 |
!op ShadowBot |
| 08:00 |
sfan5 |
damnit |
| 08:00 |
VanessaE |
ninja'd again :D |
| 08:00 |
ShadowNinja |
lol |
| 08:00 |
VanessaE |
(insert random chop-socky cries here) |
| 08:01 |
sfan5 |
!g google |
| 08:01 |
MinetestBot |
sfan5: http://www.google.com/ |
| 08:01 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: Can you add me to MinetestBot's op list so I can do it myself? |
| 08:01 |
VanessaE |
or just give auto-op directly from Minetestbot -> ShadowBot |
| 08:02 |
sfan5 |
ShadowNinja: gimme a hostmask that matches to JUST you |
| 08:03 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: /whois ShadowNinja, I have a cloak so changing IPs isn't an issue and I have to auth with NickServ to get it. |
| 08:03 |
sfan5 |
k |
| 08:04 |
sfan5 |
so *!*@unaffiliated/shadowninja does it? |
| 08:04 |
ShadowNinja |
Yes |
| 08:04 |
sfan5 |
VanessaE: do you want admin rights for MinetestBot too? |
| 08:04 |
VanessaE |
naw, don't need it |
| 08:04 |
VanessaE |
I make a shitty admin anyway :) |
| 08:05 |
* ShadowBot |
wakes up |
| 08:06 |
sfan5 |
,,(op sfan5) |
| 08:06 |
|
MinetestBot joined #minetest |
| 08:06 |
* ShadowBot |
sleeps |
| 08:06 |
sfan5 |
,,(op MinetestBot) |
| 08:06 |
sfan5 |
:/ |
| 08:06 |
sfan5 |
ShadowNinja: try any of the admin commands listed here: |
| 08:06 |
sfan5 |
!help |
| 08:06 |
MinetestBot |
https://github.com/sfan5/minetestbot-modules/blob/master/COMMANDS.md |
| 08:06 |
sfan5 |
^ |
| 08:06 |
messa4 |
hello |
| 08:07 |
sfan5 |
hi messa4 |
| 08:07 |
messa4 |
is it possible to make minecraft made from balls instead squares? |
| 08:07 |
messa4 |
with gravity dynamics - ball rolling around. kinda neat idea |
| 08:07 |
VanessaE |
minecraft? |
| 08:07 |
VanessaE |
er |
| 08:07 |
messa4 |
minetest* |
| 08:07 |
sfan5 |
umm.. this is the minetest channel |
| 08:07 |
messa4 |
:) |
| 08:07 |
sfan5 |
.. |
| 08:07 |
messa4 |
i know |
| 08:07 |
sfan5 |
yes |
| 08:07 |
sfan5 |
but you'd need to do some work to achieve that |
| 08:08 |
VanessaE |
you mean something like the old classic 80's Marble Madness? |
| 08:08 |
messa4 |
sfan5: and is it easy to make default square lets say 10x smaller by default? |
| 08:08 |
messa4 |
VanessaE: exactly :) |
| 08:08 |
messa4 |
marbles |
| 08:08 |
VanessaE |
that's impossible though |
| 08:08 |
sfan5 |
messa4: i don't think it would be too easy |
| 08:08 |
VanessaE |
(the 10:1 scale blocks) |
| 08:08 |
messa4 |
why impossible? |
| 08:09 |
VanessaE |
the engine is simply not set up for that |
| 08:09 |
messa4 |
becasue of memory usage or what? |
| 08:09 |
messa4 |
just make my character 10x bigger |
| 08:09 |
VanessaE |
because it was set up to make the blocks 1m cubed :) |
| 08:09 |
sfan5 |
!uuencode MinetestBot |
| 08:09 |
MinetestBot |
+36EN971E<W1";W0 |
| 08:10 |
VanessaE |
uuencode? heh, didn't know anyone still used that :) |
| 08:10 |
Calinou |
hello mr. "do a smaller cubes" |
| 08:10 |
sfan5 |
!seen ShadowBot |
| 08:10 |
MinetestBot |
sfan5: shadowbot was last seen at 2013-05-09 08:07:16 UTC on #minetest |
| 08:10 |
Calinou |
messa4: could be possible by scaling the player 10x |
| 08:10 |
Calinou |
but would make the game much more resource intensive, and would also shorten view range |
| 08:11 |
messa4 |
so i would press R button |
| 08:11 |
messa4 |
im asking coz i dont understand why minetest is limited to huge unnatural blocks |
| 08:11 |
ShadowNinja |
Good night! |
| 08:11 |
VanessaE |
night |
| 08:11 |
messa4 |
while in fact - engine could handle some other shapes :) |
| 08:11 |
sfan5 |
!server name:sfan5 |
| 08:12 |
sfan5 |
MinetestBot! |
| 08:12 |
messa4 |
its just polygons |
| 08:12 |
sfan5 |
... |
| 08:12 |
MinetestBot |
sfan5: No results |
| 08:12 |
MinetestBot |
sfan5! |
| 08:13 |
sfan5 |
!server name:server random |
| 08:13 |
MinetestBot |
sfan5: WazuClan.com | wazuclan.com | Clients: 6/32 | Version: 0.4.6 minetest | ping: 0.207 |
| 08:13 |
sfan5 |
!server name:server random |
| 08:13 |
MinetestBot |
sfan5: WazuClan.com | wazuclan.com | Clients: 6/32 | Version: 0.4.6 minetest | ping: 0.207 |
| 08:13 |
messa4 |
omg |
| 08:13 |
messa4 |
thats my server! |
| 08:13 |
kaeza |
messa4, because if you make the cubes half their size, you must draw 8x the amount |
| 08:13 |
messa4 |
i mean i play there :D |
| 08:13 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 08:13 |
messa4 |
my nickname: hans |
| 08:13 |
kaeza |
my nickname: kaeza |
| 08:14 |
messa4 |
u saw my tower yet? |
| 08:14 |
messa4 |
its like 120 blocks high |
| 08:14 |
kaeza |
(I play nowhere) |
| 08:14 |
messa4 |
btw |
| 08:15 |
messa4 |
does mt have some kind of cache for seen blocks? [i mean in multiplayer server] |
| 08:15 |
messa4 |
or its delivereed to player every single time when he is looking somewhere? |
| 08:16 |
kaeza |
VanessaE, for some reason I can't craft cobble slabs on your server (which is kind of pointless anyway because it's creative :P) |
| 08:16 |
VanessaE |
the server and client both cache it a bit. |
| 08:16 |
VanessaE |
kaeza: use the circular saw |
| 08:16 |
|
arsdragonfly joined #minetest |
| 08:16 |
kaeza |
actually, scratch that |
| 08:16 |
kaeza |
I can but they have no texture O.o |
| 08:16 |
VanessaE |
no texture? |
| 08:16 |
VanessaE |
oh wait, that's Calinou's attempt to disable the default recipes :) |
| 08:17 |
* arsdragonfly |
installed debian on his phone |
| 08:17 |
VanessaE |
just use the circular saw :) |
| 08:17 |
Calinou |
moreblocks:nothing :D |
| 08:17 |
Calinou |
no tooltip, invisible in hand and inventory |
| 08:17 |
Calinou |
some people actually attempt to click, so they craft that item :P |
| 08:17 |
kaeza |
Y U do dis? I wasted 9 cobblestone nodes! |
| 08:19 |
Calinou |
to disable the default crafting recipes |
| 08:20 |
kaeza |
that circular saw is cool |
| 08:21 |
|
ShadowBot joined #minetest |
| 08:22 |
ShadowNinja |
!op ShadowBot |
| 08:22 |
ShadowBot |
ShadowNinja: Error: I need to be opped to op someone. |
| 08:22 |
kaeza |
anyway, enuff play for today |
| 08:22 |
|
arsdragonfly joined #minetest |
| 08:22 |
kaeza |
off to bed. night everyone |
| 08:22 |
arsdragonfly |
Night |
| 08:22 |
* arsdragonfly |
is trying to build minetest on it |
| 08:23 |
arsdragonfly |
Idk how long it takes to compile with -O0 |
| 08:23 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: Please add the ability to trigger commands specificaly on your bot for all commands. |
| 08:29 |
|
ShadowBot joined #minetest |
| 08:29 |
sfan5 |
ShadowNinja: what do you mean? |
| 08:29 |
messa4 |
btw |
| 08:30 |
messa4 |
all mods are written in lua? |
| 08:30 |
messa4 |
or what |
| 08:30 |
messa4 |
? |
| 08:30 |
sfan5 |
messa4: all mods are written in lua |
| 08:30 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: for example MinetestBot: op ShadowBot instead of !op ShadowBot |
| 08:31 |
sfan5 |
ummm, that required tinkering with regexes and such things.. i'll take a look at it in a sec |
| 08:31 |
messa4 |
sfan5: does any deafault parts of game [no mods] use lua? |
| 08:32 |
sfan5 |
minetest_game is completly made of lua |
| 08:32 |
ShadowNinja |
!op ShadowBot |
| 08:32 |
ShadowBot |
ShadowNinja: Error: I need to be opped to op someone. |
| 08:33 |
|
arsdragonfly joined #minetest |
| 08:34 |
arsdragonfly |
How to squash multiple commits into one commit in a pull request? |
| 08:35 |
|
Fresh_m__ joined #minetest |
| 08:35 |
ShadowNinja |
arsdragonfly: git rebase -i |
| 08:35 |
sfan5 |
arsdragonfly: "git rebase -i HEAD^^" change first part of second line to "fixup" save, use "git push -f" and you're done |
| 08:36 |
arsdragonfly |
Thanks |
| 08:36 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: That does exactly two up from the head. And don't you mean change all the others to squash? |
| 08:38 |
sfan5 |
ShadowNinja: IIRC the others are "set" to squash by default (if thats what you mean) |
| 08:38 |
ShadowNinja |
No, pick by default. But I should go, bye. |
| 08:39 |
sfan5 |
ShadowNinja: I always just need to squash my last commit into my previous |
| 08:40 |
messa4 |
sfan5: minetest_game = minetest game [thing that i play] ? |
| 08:40 |
messa4 |
so only engine is written in c++ and everyting else is lua? |
| 08:41 |
|
celeron55 joined #minetest |
| 08:43 |
|
smoke_fumus joined #minetest |
| 08:44 |
sfan5 |
messa4: yup |
| 08:46 |
messa4 |
thx |
| 08:46 |
messa4 |
btw is it normal that on multiplayer server minetest is not loading all blocks within range of my view? just the blocks area that i visited... |
| 08:46 |
messa4 |
can it be server fault? |
| 08:46 |
messa4 |
or its working but its just very slow? |
| 08:47 |
sfan5 |
depends on your connection and the servers connection |
| 08:48 |
messa4 |
so blocks are not cached in my machine? |
| 08:48 |
|
john_minetest joined #minetest |
| 08:48 |
sfan5 |
messa4: only in your RAM, not on your hard drive |
| 08:48 |
messa4 |
can i enable hdd cache somehow? |
| 08:49 |
messa4 |
offline one |
| 08:49 |
sfan5 |
john_minetest: did you expirence any problem last time playing JDB? |
| 08:49 |
sfan5 |
messa4: there is no hdd cache support |
| 08:49 |
messa4 |
please make one fro me. thx :) |
| 08:49 |
sfan5 |
*JSB |
| 08:49 |
messa4 |
u have 3 gours |
| 08:49 |
messa4 |
hours |
| 08:50 |
sfan5 |
john_minetest: it spit out some of "ANTICHEAT: jmf tried to pick up tile that was not pickable" |
| 08:50 |
whirm |
what is the most developed mobs mod? |
| 08:50 |
sfan5 |
whirm: go check out simple mobs |
| 08:50 |
sfan5 |
messa4: thats not how it works.. |
| 08:50 |
whirm |
sfan5: thanks! |
| 08:50 |
messa4 |
sfan5: :( |
| 08:51 |
sfan5 |
messa4: learn some c++ and try doing it yourself |
| 08:51 |
messa4 |
i know python and asm etc. but i dislike c++ :( |
| 08:51 |
messa4 |
i mean its not dislike - its too complex for me. i tried hard to get it over years and no go |
| 08:52 |
sfan5 |
john_minetest: i fixed some small bug |
| 08:52 |
messa4 |
sfan5: do have any browser link to githum of minetest? |
| 08:52 |
|
blaze joined #minetest |
| 08:53 |
sfan5 |
messa4: http://github.com/minetest/minetest |
| 08:53 |
messa4 |
do u use a lot of pointers and structures? |
| 08:53 |
messa4 |
and operator overloading? |
| 08:54 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: how do you program? with code? are you type it? |
| 08:54 |
smoke_fumus |
that's how it sounds. |
| 08:54 |
Calinou |
you can make mods in lua, messa4 |
| 08:54 |
messa4 |
smoke_fumus: well. when i tried c++ i typed it in vim. and compiled with gcc |
| 08:55 |
messa4 |
yeah lua seems easier :) |
| 08:55 |
smoke_fumus |
ugh. vi, vim, emacs - all the same. imo - batch of editors for people who need needless complications |
| 08:56 |
sfan5 |
vim is pretty nice if you're bound to console |
| 08:56 |
sfan5 |
but nano is way easier to understand for noobs |
| 08:56 |
smoke_fumus |
if i'm bound to console i'll use nano lol |
| 08:56 |
messa4 |
i use vi becasue its "always there". not for fucntionality. i use maybe 10 keys [i,s,S,u,/ etc.] |
| 08:56 |
smoke_fumus |
it has all the same functions but more understandable interface |
| 08:57 |
messa4 |
only thing that i lack in "pico" whatevert is "dd" [removing current line with] function from VI. and ":" -moving to choosen line |
| 08:57 |
smoke_fumus |
vi is always there yes. open any cisco hardware. connect through ssh/telnet to it. there is vim. |
| 08:57 |
smoke_fumus |
*vi |
| 08:57 |
messa4 |
ps i dont really use vim. nvi from bsd [small one] |
| 08:57 |
|
arsdragonfly joined #minetest |
| 08:57 |
smoke_fumus |
hack-open fridge with linux on it. there is vi |
| 08:57 |
smoke_fumus |
:D |
| 08:57 |
smoke_fumus |
goddamn toasters with *nix onboard have vi |
| 08:58 |
messa4 |
anyway |
| 08:58 |
|
LunaVorax joined #minetest |
| 08:58 |
messa4 |
smoke_fumus: u are code by hand or there is some other magical way to generate C++ code?! [except gui...] |
| 08:59 |
smoke_fumus |
mathlab with addons can generate c++ code from mathcode |
| 08:59 |
messa4 |
you are writing code* |
| 08:59 |
messa4 |
didnt know that |
| 08:59 |
smoke_fumus |
although it is more like prototyping |
| 08:59 |
smoke_fumus |
also there is some graph editors which allow you to visually prototype project |
| 08:59 |
smoke_fumus |
and spit out c++ bare bones to fill in |
| 09:00 |
messa4 |
anyway. i would rather write in lua then c++ :P |
| 09:00 |
smoke_fumus |
but. no software will write good c++ code for you. shitty, atrocious, unoptimizied and outright illogical yes. good, safe and optimized - no wai. |
| 09:00 |
messa4 |
true |
| 09:01 |
smoke_fumus |
i would rather use AS/JS/C# than lua |
| 09:01 |
messa4 |
AS? JS? |
| 09:01 |
smoke_fumus |
actionscript |
| 09:01 |
smoke_fumus |
javascript |
| 09:01 |
messa4 |
are u serious? |
| 09:01 |
smoke_fumus |
yes i am serious. i'm sick beyond reason of lua |
| 09:01 |
messa4 |
its not portable and its propertiary etc :P |
| 09:01 |
smoke_fumus |
are you high or something? |
| 09:02 |
smoke_fumus |
C# is opened since mono |
| 09:02 |
smoke_fumus |
same with javascript |
| 09:02 |
smoke_fumus |
and mono is highly portable |
| 09:02 |
messa4 |
but its not open launguage |
| 09:02 |
messa4 |
anyway nvm |
| 09:02 |
smoke_fumus |
you are an amateur in coding. |
| 09:02 |
smoke_fumus |
why do you need it to be opened? |
| 09:02 |
smoke_fumus |
can't write a few functions yourself? |
| 09:03 |
messa4 |
C is open. all standardized etc |
| 09:03 |
smoke_fumus |
what do you mean by open? |
| 09:03 |
messa4 |
anyway nvm |
| 09:04 |
* smoke_fumus |
drools |
| 09:04 |
messa4 |
even java is Open. specification of java was released with initial Java. |
| 09:04 |
smoke_fumus |
"i see a dumb people which think they are smart" |
| 09:04 |
messa4 |
thats why u have multiple implementations of it |
| 09:04 |
messa4 |
smoke_fumus: its about you |
| 09:04 |
messa4 |
go and code in JS |
| 09:05 |
smoke_fumus |
multiple? oh you mean that outdated, unoptimized, lackluster crap like openjvm? |
| 09:05 |
smoke_fumus |
no thanks |
| 09:05 |
messa4 |
k |
| 09:05 |
smoke_fumus |
there is only one java that works as intended - sun/oracle's java |
| 09:06 |
messa4 |
so why openjdk was supported by sun? |
| 09:06 |
messa4 |
becasue it also worked |
| 09:06 |
smoke_fumus |
better tell me why sun were needed to be bought by oracle. |
| 09:06 |
messa4 |
patents, sparc servers, solaris, java |
| 09:06 |
smoke_fumus |
bankrupcy and poor decisions of managment. openjdk being one of them |
| 09:07 |
messa4 |
BANKRUPCY?! |
| 09:07 |
messa4 |
smoke_fumus: what are u smoking dude |
| 09:07 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: it was half way down the hill |
| 09:07 |
messa4 |
NO IT WASNT |
| 09:07 |
messa4 |
i know the statemenets |
| 09:07 |
messa4 |
dude |
| 09:07 |
messa4 |
Sun was thriving buisness thats why even IBM wanted it |
| 09:07 |
smoke_fumus |
if they were on the horse good managment would've never sold company to side developer |
| 09:07 |
messa4 |
but oracled paid more |
| 09:08 |
messa4 |
dude |
| 09:08 |
messa4 |
go to yahoo finance. and read the old financial reports. u will be shocked how much profit sun did before accusition |
| 09:08 |
messa4 |
go and check |
| 09:08 |
messa4 |
seriously |
| 09:08 |
smoke_fumus |
then why did they sold it? |
| 09:08 |
messa4 |
ps. im not big fan of oracle myself. but u are seriolsy taking nonsense now |
| 09:08 |
messa4 |
smoke_fumus: FOR MONEY |
| 09:09 |
messa4 |
BILLIONS OF IT |
| 09:09 |
|
Zeg9 joined #minetest |
| 09:09 |
smoke_fumus |
putting instant greed ahead of long-term profits. that's seems unwise |
| 09:09 |
Zeg9 |
Hello ! |
| 09:09 |
messa4 |
they did the same with DEC and other great companies |
| 09:09 |
messa4 |
smoke_fumus: thats other story |
| 09:09 |
messa4 |
smoke_fumus: but seriously: sun was VERY good company before merger |
| 09:09 |
messa4 |
aka acusition |
| 09:10 |
Zeg9 |
I agree |
| 09:10 |
smoke_fumus |
well maybe, it is looks like biggest exploit. But take a notice - it is most ported virtual enviroment up to date |
| 09:11 |
messa4 |
this recent shit about java: is about windoze JSE problems. the starting process on windows is just buggy and unsecure. |
| 09:11 |
messa4 |
aka passing arguments to sandbox and vice versa while it should be fixed |
| 09:11 |
smoke_fumus |
because windows is buggy and unsecure |
| 09:11 |
messa4 |
not necesarlly |
| 09:11 |
smoke_fumus |
but usually |
| 09:12 |
messa4 |
i think that for years just not many ppl cared about javaSE security |
| 09:12 |
messa4 |
so no exploits were written |
| 09:12 |
smoke_fumus |
john_minetest: good luck porting to powerPC-child processors. |
| 09:12 |
smoke_fumus |
if your code even a bit is not ANSI-compatible - you are screwed. |
| 09:13 |
|
TheUndeadRaven joined #minetest |
| 09:13 |
smoke_fumus |
spoiled maybe. but also optimized. j1.7 might be full of holes like swiss cheese but it runs faster |
| 09:14 |
messa4 |
john_minetest: its not about java. most of those exploits are targeting windows "starting mechanism" of java. bunch of exe's - starting whole java VM infrstrsucture. those bugs are OLD - propably from Sun era. just no one else epxloited them before. |
| 09:14 |
smoke_fumus |
john_minetest: true true |
| 09:14 |
messa4 |
next year we might find 50 exploits in current linux glibc or ssh :) |
| 09:14 |
TheUndeadRaven |
hi |
| 09:14 |
smoke_fumus |
i hope you using something like Eclipse IDE :3 |
| 09:14 |
sfan5 |
Achievement get! Crash google chrome by opening a new tab |
| 09:14 |
smoke_fumus |
xD |
| 09:14 |
messa4 |
lol |
| 09:15 |
smoke_fumus |
that's a relief. was it chrome or custom build chromium? |
| 09:15 |
messa4 |
smoke_fumus: u seruously wanted to write minetest in javascript or you were joking before? |
| 09:16 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: technically - you can. it will requier at least canvas. better yet webGl |
| 09:16 |
TheUndeadRaven |
Who here is an artist? |
| 09:16 |
smoke_fumus |
TheUndeadRaven: what kind of artist do you need |
| 09:16 |
smoke_fumus |
shitty js games you mean |
| 09:16 |
TheUndeadRaven |
cartoon-style artist =) |
| 09:16 |
messa4 |
ehh nvm |
| 09:16 |
smoke_fumus |
:D |
| 09:16 |
messa4 |
hate JS |
| 09:16 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: love js |
| 09:17 |
smoke_fumus |
http://www.unlok.ca/wayward/ < here. a good example of js game |
| 09:17 |
smoke_fumus |
its a roguelike survival written by my friend |
| 09:17 |
TheUndeadRaven |
i just need one 320x320 or 640x640 picture of an Undead Raven sitting on a tree at night with a full moon... |
| 09:17 |
messa4 |
without JS - im able to surfe the web even on 15 years old computer. but the same sites with JS enabled [just for silly stuff like advers or login buttons] - it makes computer CRAWL [impossible to do anything] |
| 09:17 |
TheUndeadRaven |
MineCraft style :D |
| 09:17 |
messa4 |
hate JS |
| 09:17 |
messa4 |
most modern JS programmers are total dumb idiots who dont care about performance. |
| 09:17 |
messa4 |
making computers slow as fuck |
| 09:18 |
messa4 |
with some ugly games |
| 09:18 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: so hate them, and not language itself |
| 09:18 |
messa4 |
like from 1999 |
| 09:18 |
messa4 |
smoke_fumus: i hate JS |
| 09:18 |
messa4 |
in all forms |
| 09:18 |
messa4 |
its not needed |
| 09:18 |
TheUndeadRaven |
so could somebody draw it? |
| 09:18 |
messa4 |
and all it gives is bloat and SLOWness |
| 09:18 |
TheUndeadRaven |
please :) |
| 09:18 |
messa4 |
but nvm |
| 09:19 |
TheUndeadRaven |
thanks john...btw, its me , Ragnar |
| 09:19 |
TheUndeadRaven |
:D |
| 09:19 |
messa4 |
seriously. go and buy some slow computer. like rassberry pi - try to browser net with JS and without - HUGE HUGE HUGE diffrence |
| 09:19 |
smoke_fumus |
okay. speaking of hate - i hate blender. it is clunky, interface is shit, features execution is shit, and it is just poor joke for people who can't use wings3d or afford 3dsmax or solidworks |
| 09:19 |
messa4 |
even for "silly" login scripts" |
| 09:19 |
messa4 |
but its usuable |
| 09:19 |
messa4 |
while JS is making whoel computer unusable just because u are using it... |
| 09:20 |
messa4 |
i hate this planet. writing games in JS - with graphics worse then in 1999, but requiring computer 2000x more powerful... |
| 09:20 |
messa4 |
insnane |
| 09:21 |
messa4 |
im going to kill myself |
| 09:21 |
smoke_fumus |
thank god |
| 09:21 |
smoke_fumus |
that clown is left the building |
| 09:24 |
smoke_fumus |
john_minetest: it looks like minecraft style which itself looks like a poor excuse to have pixelated textures xD |
| 09:26 |
TheUndeadRaven |
an avatar... |
| 09:26 |
TheUndeadRaven |
http://i2.ytimg.com/i/uj1Ms9_LCsQPSJ4p8nvOVA/mq1.jpg?v=5166083d |
| 09:26 |
TheUndeadRaven |
thats minecraft style |
| 09:27 |
TheUndeadRaven |
everything is blocky |
| 09:27 |
TheUndeadRaven |
kinda... |
| 09:27 |
TheUndeadRaven |
john_minetest AAA |
| 09:33 |
TheUndeadRaven |
john_minetest... |
| 09:35 |
smoke_fumus |
TheUndeadRaven: get onto da, find artist, pay him 10 bucks for pixelart mugshot av |
| 09:35 |
TheUndeadRaven |
NOT PIXELART YOU DUMBASS! |
| 09:36 |
smoke_fumus |
TheUndeadRaven: 1. shut your immateur mouth up. |
| 09:36 |
TheUndeadRaven |
who you calling immature? |
| 09:36 |
TheUndeadRaven |
YOU CANT EVEN TYPE IT! |
| 09:37 |
smoke_fumus |
you can talk with lil-cunts like yourself like that, not with people which more adult and adequate than you are. |
| 09:37 |
sfan5 |
!op |
| 09:37 |
|
PilzAdam joined #minetest |
| 09:37 |
smoke_fumus |
its hammer time :D |
| 09:38 |
smoke_fumus |
TheUndeadRaven: have any last words? maybe you want to apologize for your inappropriate behavior? |
| 09:39 |
VanessaE |
I wander off to code something and the whole fucking channel goes insane... |
| 09:39 |
VanessaE |
morning PA. |
| 09:39 |
smoke_fumus |
hi :3 |
| 09:39 |
sfan5 |
hi PilzAdam |
| 09:39 |
|
Calinou joined #minetest |
| 09:39 |
PilzAdam |
Hello everyone! |
| 09:40 |
Calinou |
hi PilzAdam |
| 09:40 |
VanessaE |
Calinou: you have a new pull request waiting - fixes a placement bug in slabs/stairs |
| 09:40 |
VanessaE |
(and this time I made sure it was based on current code and without extra *~ files ;) ) |
| 09:41 |
VanessaE |
(sorry if it spammed your email with multiple attempts. things kept...going wrong |
| 09:42 |
VanessaE |
(uses code from pilzadam ;) ) |
| 09:43 |
sfan5 |
!mute *!*@95.129.193.48 |
| 09:43 |
sfan5 |
!unmute *!*@95.129.193.48 |
| 09:43 |
sfan5 |
!mute *!*@*95.129.193.48 |
| 09:43 |
PilzAdam |
VanessaE, what code? |
| 09:44 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: that shortcut function for getting a node's field defs |
| 09:45 |
smoke_fumus |
sfan5: thanks mate. are retards with inappropriate behavior like that one common on this channel? |
| 09:45 |
sfan5 |
smoke_fumus: uhhh.... |
| 09:45 |
PilzAdam |
VanessaE, this one: https://gist.github.com/PilzAdam/5528813 ? |
| 09:45 |
smoke_fumus |
i assume yes. |
| 09:45 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: naw, this: https://github.com/VanessaE/calinou_mods/commit/8723918bd8e6fe67bdba2447508b9235e395db5a#L1R91 |
| 09:46 |
VanessaE |
(lines 91-97) |
| 09:46 |
PilzAdam |
where did you got that from? |
| 09:47 |
VanessaE |
I thought I got it from you? damned if I remember now. |
| 09:47 |
VanessaE |
:) |
| 09:49 |
* Calinou |
likes the new loading screen |
| 09:50 |
VanessaE |
Calinou: after you merge that pull request, can you re-enable stacking of thin slabs -> thick ones? the code that you had before is still there, commented out, but I didn't wanna screw with it |
| 09:50 |
|
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| 09:50 |
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TheLastProject joined #minetest |
| 09:51 |
* PilzAdam |
doesnt lik eht enew loading screen |
| 09:51 |
PilzAdam |
why turns it black at the beginning? |
| 09:51 |
PilzAdam |
Zeg9 ^ |
| 09:51 |
Zeg9 |
It turns black because of another loading screen before it |
| 09:52 |
|
q66 joined #minetest |
| 09:55 |
VanessaE |
Zeg9: you should let the clouds continue to animate while the media is being loaded. |
| 09:55 |
whirm |
VanessaE: I agree |
| 09:55 |
VanessaE |
(or the render-to-texture step if that's where it's happening) |
| 09:56 |
iqualfragile |
wel… it does continue to animate |
| 09:56 |
iqualfragile |
but it stops from time to time |
| 09:56 |
PilzAdam |
Zeg9, isnt it possible to have the clouds all the time? |
| 09:56 |
iqualfragile |
*well |
| 09:56 |
smoke_fumus |
VanessaE: 3d object below media? does irchit has such capability? last thing which were able to dynamically load in background, not interrupting other scene were unreal engine |
| 09:57 |
VanessaE |
smoke_fumus: I don't know whether it's possible or not, but these are just clouds, so I don't see why it wouldn't be. |
| 09:57 |
sfan5 |
VanessaE: you can't render clouds while you render to texture |
| 09:57 |
VanessaE |
(it's not like he's trying to render the world) |
| 09:57 |
smoke_fumus |
what if you render static image of clouds? |
| 09:57 |
sfan5 |
VanessaE: the part of the screen that is used to render-to-texture can't be used for clouds |
| 09:57 |
sfan5 |
smoke_fumus: no, moving clouds |
| 09:58 |
VanessaE |
sfan5: in my particular situation, render-to-texture is not displayed on the screen. |
| 09:58 |
VanessaE |
all I ever see is the clouds and the progress bar. |
| 09:58 |
sfan5 |
VanessaE: render to texture is done after loading media |
| 09:58 |
VanessaE |
sfan5: I know that. |
| 09:58 |
PilzAdam |
VanessaE, currently the clouds just freeze if the inventory textures are rendered |
| 09:59 |
VanessaE |
but the progress bar remains on-screen during that step. |
| 09:59 |
PilzAdam |
wich is reasonable |
| 09:59 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: yes I know. I was suggesting that this should not be the case. |
| 09:59 |
PilzAdam |
(better than black screen) |
| 09:59 |
VanessaE |
additional progress information is needed here. |
| 09:59 |
sfan5 |
on my machine the render-to-texture thing is displayed sometimes |
| 09:59 |
smoke_fumus |
this is lame copout |
| 09:59 |
smoke_fumus |
create stand-alone draw call for gui |
| 09:59 |
smoke_fumus |
one which will not interrupt clouds and whatnot |
| 10:00 |
smoke_fumus |
john_minetest: dude, don't help an asshole |
| 10:00 |
Zeg9 |
VanessaE, they should animate while it's downloading |
| 10:00 |
PilzAdam |
VanessaE, I was talking about the black screen in the "Resolving adress" and "Connecting to Server" steps |
| 10:00 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: I wasn't. :) |
| 10:00 |
VanessaE |
however those steps also need the clouds screen too |
| 10:00 |
smoke_fumus |
PilzAdam: VanessaE: just add another layer with stand-alone drawcall >.> |
| 10:00 |
VanessaE |
(also..too? grammar FAIL) |
| 10:01 |
smoke_fumus |
john_minetest: he is muted xD |
| 10:01 |
Zeg9 |
PilzAdam, it isn't really possible to do these screens, or it would require a static/global "menuclouds" variable |
| 10:01 |
|
sapier1 joined #minetest |
| 10:01 |
smoke_fumus |
oh okay. |
| 10:01 |
Zeg9 |
It is possible to make a blue background during that screens, though |
| 10:02 |
PilzAdam |
and what hinders you from doing the static variable? |
| 10:02 |
Zeg9 |
I'm unsure where to store it |
| 10:02 |
PilzAdam |
in main |
| 10:03 |
Zeg9 |
yeah but loading screen is in game.cpp |
| 10:03 |
PilzAdam |
game.cpp includes main.h |
| 10:03 |
Zeg9 |
Okay then |
| 10:03 |
Zeg9 |
So clouds should be there for *all* loading screens? |
| 10:03 |
VanessaE |
yup |
| 10:03 |
PilzAdam |
yes |
| 10:03 |
VanessaE |
if at all possible |
| 10:04 |
PilzAdam |
would it also fix that the clouds change when deleting worlds? |
| 10:04 |
VanessaE |
never noticed that |
| 10:04 |
Zeg9 |
Maybe, I'm not sure about this. |
| 10:06 |
sapier1 |
http://animalsmod.comuf.com/factions_mod/classfactions.html api suggestion for a factions mod |
| 10:06 |
|
arsdragonfly joined #minetest |
| 10:07 |
PilzAdam |
sapier1, s/del_faction/delete_faction |
| 10:07 |
sapier1 |
pilzadam did you have time to check if those mob concentrations you experienced is really a result of activity boundary? |
| 10:07 |
PilzAdam |
no, I was sleeping |
| 10:08 |
sapier1 |
what you really need sleep? ;-) |
| 10:08 |
smoke_fumus |
sapier1: fucked up hair, eyebags, redeyes, twitches. do you need any more reasons? :D |
| 10:09 |
sapier1 |
you've got eternety to sleep ... should be enogh for everyone ;-) |
| 10:09 |
smoke_fumus |
spirit can. body cannot. my personal record is 56 hours. first time playing minecraft survival (it was alpha 1.3.1 back then) |
| 10:10 |
VanessaE |
56 hours? O.O |
| 10:10 |
smoke_fumus |
yep |
| 10:10 |
sapier1 |
56 hours? wow |
| 10:10 |
VanessaE |
damn, and here I thought I was doing good to go 36 hours in a stretch |
| 10:10 |
smoke_fumus |
xD |
| 10:10 |
sapier1 |
I'm about 50h max as far as I remember |
| 10:10 |
smoke_fumus |
lesser records i usually take are 45-48 hours. was 3 in a row through 12 hour sleeps while i were coding gridhopper |
| 10:11 |
VanessaE |
now, give me enough caffeine and an intense-enough interest and I might be able to stay up longer.. but dayum |
| 10:12 |
sapier1 |
but takes some hours to recover from beeing awake for 50h ... less when I was young but now I need at least 8h |
| 10:12 |
smoke_fumus |
VanessaE: give me intense enough interest, few gallons of pepsi, and good food |
| 10:12 |
smoke_fumus |
sapier1: 8h will not do it. |
| 10:12 |
smoke_fumus |
18. |
| 10:12 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 10:12 |
sapier1 |
will do |
| 10:12 |
smoke_fumus |
i slept 18 hours after that |
| 10:12 |
sapier1 |
I've never slept for more than 12 h after that my back starts to hurt ;-) |
| 10:13 |
smoke_fumus |
i were sleeping on extra-soft matress |
| 10:13 |
smoke_fumus |
that helped :D |
| 10:13 |
|
TheUndeadRaven left #minetest |
| 10:13 |
VanessaE |
memory foam ftw :) |
| 10:13 |
Zeg9 |
PilzAdam: should the menu clouds be the same as the ingame ones? |
| 10:13 |
sapier1 |
I hate soft matresses ... can't sleep on things like that at all |
| 10:14 |
sapier1 |
but back to what I wanted to ask does anyone have ideas what features are might be missing in my factions mod suggestion? |
| 10:14 |
PilzAdam |
Zeg9, what do you mean? |
| 10:14 |
VanessaE |
Zeg9: see if you can carry the currently-selected game's splash/overlays over when in singleplayer mode |
| 10:14 |
VanessaE |
else I don't see much reason to keep the clouds in sync |
| 10:15 |
Zeg9 |
Never mind. They aren't the same color anyway |
| 10:15 |
VanessaE |
OH I see what you meant. |
| 10:15 |
smoke_fumus |
speaking of gridhopper. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9288177/bin-debug/GridHopper/Gridhopper.xhtml this is earilier prototype. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9288177/bin-debug/gridhopper_beta3_exe.7z this is almost finished game |
| 10:15 |
VanessaE |
there's no reason for that, no. |
| 10:16 |
smoke_fumus |
half of levels is not there |
| 10:16 |
smoke_fumus |
but level editor works |
| 10:16 |
sfan5 |
!unmute *!*@*95.129.193.48 |
| 10:16 |
|
GhostlyDeath joined #minetest |
| 10:16 |
|
GhostlyDeath joined #minetest |
| 10:17 |
sfan5 |
smoke_fumus: there is no unity web player for linux |
| 10:17 |
smoke_fumus |
hang on let me assemble linux binary for ya |
| 10:17 |
Zeg9 |
Now need to recompile everything since I modified main.h... |
| 10:18 |
smoke_fumus |
sfan5: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9288177/bin-debug/gh_beta3_linuxBIN.tar |
| 10:18 |
smoke_fumus |
here you go |
| 10:18 |
smoke_fumus |
ch +x gridhopper.bin and launch |
| 10:18 |
VanessaE |
tar? jeez, at least compress it :) |
| 10:18 |
smoke_fumus |
*chmod |
| 10:18 |
smoke_fumus |
:p |
| 10:18 |
iqualfragile |
sapier1: yeah, i like to sleep on the floor, too |
| 10:18 |
smoke_fumus |
i don't have tools which gzip atm |
| 10:18 |
sfan5 |
smoke_fumus: 404 |
| 10:19 |
sfan5 |
get 7zip |
| 10:19 |
smoke_fumus |
sfan5: try again |
| 10:19 |
iqualfragile |
no matresses at all |
| 10:19 |
smoke_fumus |
oh come on its only 35 mb |
| 10:19 |
VanessaE |
smoke_fumus: tar has built-in gzip/bzip2 I thought? |
| 10:19 |
iqualfragile |
he has 7zip obviously |
| 10:19 |
VanessaE |
oh |
| 10:19 |
iqualfragile |
no it does not |
| 10:19 |
sapier1 |
floor is a little bit to hard imho ;-) |
| 10:19 |
iqualfragile |
it uses gzip |
| 10:19 |
VanessaE |
file.tar.7z then ;) |
| 10:19 |
smoke_fumus |
VanessaE: no it isn't. targz has |
| 10:19 |
iqualfragile |
and bzip |
| 10:19 |
iqualfragile |
2 |
| 10:19 |
sapier1 |
at least if it's not a soft meadow ;-) |
| 10:19 |
iqualfragile |
to compress |
| 10:19 |
smoke_fumus |
tar on itself is pseudoarchive |
| 10:20 |
VanessaE |
ah, I wasn't sure. I only ever go direct with jcvf/jxvf |
| 10:20 |
iqualfragile |
smoke_fumus: well, its exactly what it states to be: a tape archiver |
| 10:20 |
smoke_fumus |
true |
| 10:25 |
Zeg9 |
Gotta go, bye all |
| 10:26 |
smoke_fumus |
sfan5: so. |
| 10:26 |
sfan5 |
smoke_fumus: downloading.. |
| 10:26 |
sfan5 |
with 142 KB/s |
| 10:26 |
smoke_fumus |
o_O |
| 10:26 |
sfan5 |
my internet speed: 800 KB/s |
| 10:26 |
smoke_fumus |
x.x |
| 10:26 |
smoke_fumus |
stop download |
| 10:26 |
smoke_fumus |
let me pack it... |
| 10:27 |
sfan5 |
no |
| 10:27 |
sfan5 |
i'm almost done |
| 10:27 |
sfan5 |
done |
| 10:30 |
sfan5 |
smoke_fumus: its a bit too big for my screen and i don't understand how it works |
| 10:30 |
smoke_fumus |
uh. what's your screensize? |
| 10:30 |
sfan5 |
1366x768 |
| 10:30 |
sfan5 |
useable by application: 1301x760 |
| 10:31 |
iqualfragile |
sfan5: thats a strange screensize |
| 10:31 |
smoke_fumus |
iqualfragile: no that's 16:9 regular laptop |
| 10:31 |
sfan5 |
iqualfragile: no? |
| 10:31 |
smoke_fumus |
sfan5: it should show launch screen with resolution setup |
| 10:32 |
iqualfragile |
it is? |
| 10:32 |
smoke_fumus |
ugh... |
| 10:32 |
* smoke_fumus |
bootsup linux vm |
| 10:32 |
sfan5 |
smoke_fumus: first i see "powered by unity" and then it shows the main menu |
| 10:32 |
smoke_fumus |
o |
| 10:32 |
smoke_fumus |
shit |
| 10:32 |
smoke_fumus |
sfan5: hang on. |
| 10:33 |
* sfan5 |
wishes he had a bigger screen |
| 10:33 |
smoke_fumus |
sfan5: ~/Library/Preferences/Unity/WebPlayerPrefs check there |
| 10:33 |
smoke_fumus |
there should be picturesquegames/gridhopper |
| 10:33 |
smoke_fumus |
or something like that |
| 10:33 |
smoke_fumus |
in there should be a file |
| 10:33 |
sfan5 |
smoke_fumus: uhh... that path looks like mac os |
| 10:34 |
iqualfragile |
1920x1080 |
| 10:34 |
iqualfragile |
indeed |
| 10:34 |
smoke_fumus |
sfan5: pardon. /home/your user/.config/unity3d |
| 10:34 |
iqualfragile |
--> ~/.config/unity3d |
| 10:35 |
sfan5 |
smoke_fumus: 1024x768 what a strange setting.. |
| 10:35 |
smoke_fumus |
regular one |
| 10:35 |
smoke_fumus |
set to 800x600 |
| 10:35 |
smoke_fumus |
should do it |
| 10:36 |
sfan5 |
smoke_fumus: i'll set it to fullscreen |
| 10:37 |
smoke_fumus |
controls are arrowkeys/wasd + space for interaction. q/e for swapping group/rotation(state) in editor mode , rightclick/leftclick to set/destroy block in editor mode, mousewheel to scroll inbetween components in editor mode |
| 10:38 |
sfan5 |
smoke_fumus: nice game |
| 10:38 |
smoke_fumus |
yeh. |
| 10:38 |
sfan5 |
first level is a bit hard for a first level |
| 10:39 |
smoke_fumus |
it is introduction |
| 10:39 |
smoke_fumus |
wait..what do you mean hard? O_o |
| 10:40 |
smoke_fumus |
i though it is extremely easy |
| 10:40 |
smoke_fumus |
you move box out of bunker, place it on platform, rotate 1 mirror to open path and get into teleporter pad |
| 10:42 |
sfan5 |
smoke_fumus: it could be easier for an intrudction level |
| 10:42 |
sfan5 |
*introduction |
| 10:42 |
smoke_fumus |
O.O you telling me this is hard? jeezuz. |
| 10:42 |
sfan5 |
its not hard |
| 10:43 |
sfan5 |
but to show the basics it could be better |
| 10:43 |
smoke_fumus |
let the user figure it out himself |
| 10:43 |
sfan5 |
!deop |
| 10:48 |
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| 10:59 |
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| 11:02 |
smoke_fumus |
sfan5: well, thing is figuring out those few movements is a trivial task. i'm not making game for retards. as far as my knowledge goes its more interesting to break down how game works |
| 11:09 |
smoke_fumus |
like a chineese puzzle. nobody will tell you how it works- you should figure it out yourself |
| 11:16 |
VanessaE |
bbl |
| 11:32 |
sfan5 |
john_minetest: no, it isn't |
| 11:36 |
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| 11:48 |
PilzAdam |
bbl |
| 11:48 |
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| 11:50 |
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messa4 joined #minetest |
| 11:50 |
messa4 |
would it be hard to create mod with turn based RPG dungeon crawl game? |
| 11:51 |
sapier1 |
rpg isn't hard but turn based is |
| 11:51 |
Calinou |
turn based RPG? ._. |
| 11:52 |
|
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| 11:55 |
messa4 |
yeah |
| 11:55 |
messa4 |
like old school games |
| 11:56 |
messa4 |
turn based becasue whole game is based on nice grid anyway. so easy to move stuff or calculate movment |
| 11:59 |
messa4 |
why? engine can be realtime. just movment of game object will be turn based :) |
| 12:01 |
messa4 |
anyway. please do it for me. for monday |
| 12:02 |
sfan5 |
messa4: we are not your magic wish unicorn, which you can tell "do this for me, for <some date>" |
| 12:02 |
messa4 |
but you are designers |
| 12:02 |
messa4 |
and u know c++ |
| 12:03 |
messa4 |
so its your job :D |
| 12:03 |
messa4 |
no more excuses |
| 12:03 |
sfan5 |
nope |
| 12:03 |
messa4 |
just kidding |
| 12:04 |
smoke_fumus |
john_minetest: switches fire back up eh |
| 12:04 |
smoke_fumus |
when you step out from them |
| 12:05 |
messa4 |
btw |
| 12:05 |
messa4 |
john_minetest: and smoke: u remember games from 90" yeah? doom, quake 1 etc |
| 12:05 |
messa4 |
wolfensteain |
| 12:06 |
smoke_fumus |
true that |
| 12:06 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: yes and i remember way more games from 90". |
| 12:06 |
smoke_fumus |
awkward |
| 12:07 |
messa4 |
tell me: those games were looking much better then minecraft but had much lower RENDERING requirments. Why minetest is not written in the same way - to use FAST software renderer instead heavy opengl graphics - that is HEAVY but looks like shit |
| 12:07 |
smoke_fumus |
shouldn't work like that |
| 12:07 |
messa4 |
minetest* |
| 12:07 |
messa4 |
that explains a lot |
| 12:07 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: you are not getting how complicated voxel structs of minetest are |
| 12:07 |
messa4 |
i do |
| 12:07 |
smoke_fumus |
you don't |
| 12:07 |
smoke_fumus |
you simply don't |
| 12:07 |
messa4 |
there were many voxel games back then. also with lower requirments for rendering |
| 12:08 |
messa4 |
anyway - evetryhing in mineraft is just blocks |
| 12:08 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: and again. you are not getting it at slightest |
| 12:08 |
Calinou |
dat assumption: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=89048#p89048 |
| 12:08 |
messa4 |
each block is like 8 polygons +texture |
| 12:08 |
smoke_fumus |
1 classical voxel = 1 pixel in 3d space = xyz vector + color property |
| 12:08 |
messa4 |
so why the hell its so heavy to render? |
| 12:09 |
messa4 |
smoke_fumus: how old are u? |
| 12:09 |
smoke_fumus |
21 |
| 12:09 |
messa4 |
same story |
| 12:09 |
messa4 |
go and play quake 2 |
| 12:09 |
messa4 |
with software renderer u will understand |
| 12:09 |
messa4 |
awsome graphics with minimum rendering requirments |
| 12:09 |
messa4 |
SOFTWARE |
| 12:09 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: 1 minecraft voxel is - 12 triangles, each has 3 verticles, each verticle has xyz property and UV property with XY vector2 coords + type of block and its behavior |
| 12:10 |
messa4 |
no opengl |
| 12:10 |
smoke_fumus |
this is 16 times more data per voxel |
| 12:10 |
smoke_fumus |
you are. a FUCKING IDIOT. |
| 12:10 |
Calinou |
tripod and tripod2 walk into a bar |
| 12:10 |
messa4 |
smoke_fumus: why so much data for one stupid box? |
| 12:10 |
Calinou |
messa4: it is heavy to render because there is zero remipping |
| 12:10 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: learn how meshes being built in opengl dumbas |
| 12:10 |
smoke_fumus |
*s |
| 12:10 |
Calinou |
faces are rendered indidually in most cases |
| 12:10 |
messa4 |
dude |
| 12:11 |
messa4 |
as i said |
| 12:11 |
messa4 |
quake 2 was able to run without opengl |
| 12:11 |
smoke_fumus |
you are a fucking dumbass who talks idiocity and actually don't know jack about internal mechanics |
| 12:11 |
Calinou |
<messa4> tell me: those games were looking much better then minecraft but had much lower RENDERING requirments. |
| 12:11 |
messa4 |
and any hardware acceleration |
| 12:11 |
messa4 |
so why minetest cant do that? |
| 12:11 |
Calinou |
can you make the difference between static worlds and prebuilt BSP maps and voxels? |
| 12:11 |
Calinou |
also, minecraft looks fine |
| 12:11 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: quake 2 doesn't use voxels you retard. it uses few polygons per wall |
| 12:11 |
messa4 |
its looks WORSE tehn quake 2 |
| 12:11 |
Calinou |
in quake, you can't put resolutions > 640×480 without a better graphic client |
| 12:11 |
Calinou |
then > than |
| 12:11 |
Calinou |
spell properly |
| 12:11 |
messa4 |
Calinou: i can |
| 12:12 |
Calinou |
with darkplaces, yes |
| 12:12 |
messa4 |
Calinou: quake 2 worked nice up to like 1600x1200 |
| 12:12 |
Calinou |
try doing that in classic quake |
| 12:12 |
Calinou |
now try 1920×1080 |
| 12:12 |
messa4 |
from 320x240 up |
| 12:12 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: again, dumbass. read what i've said. |
| 12:12 |
smoke_fumus |
those are completely different algorythms for building level geometry |
| 12:12 |
Calinou |
also, Q1/Q2/Q3 were very CPU centric because graphic cards were much slower back then |
| 12:13 |
Calinou |
so if you have high end CPU + high end GPU you'll be CPU limited, almost alway |
| 12:13 |
Calinou |
always* |
| 12:13 |
messa4 |
Calinou: it ran on pentium 1... |
| 12:13 |
smoke_fumus |
Calinou: this is not the case here. that idiot assumes that Q2 better then minetest although both use completely different approach to render and show geometry |
| 12:13 |
* Calinou |
sets that pentium 1's ratio to 3333 |
| 12:13 |
smoke_fumus |
q2 - bsp trees and fixed level geometry with portal viewport splicing |
| 12:13 |
messa4 |
Calinou: anyway: whats stopping minecraft from using polygons ? |
| 12:14 |
messa4 |
minetest* |
| 12:14 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: dumbass. |
| 12:14 |
smoke_fumus |
it uses polygons |
| 12:14 |
smoke_fumus |
minetest voxels - dynamic direct path of rendering with releasing only technically visible quads into fov |
| 12:14 |
smoke_fumus |
nothing getting culled down like in bsp |
| 12:14 |
smoke_fumus |
and you can't |
| 12:14 |
smoke_fumus |
because bsp is fixed |
| 12:15 |
messa4 |
smoke_fumus: so it would be impossible to create minecraft like engine using quake2 engine? |
| 12:15 |
smoke_fumus |
you can technically use quadtree but direct algorythms just easier to comprehend |
| 12:15 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: read what bsp is. |
| 12:15 |
messa4 |
i mean Calinou * |
| 12:15 |
Calinou |
there is occlusion culling, with opengl 2 |
| 12:15 |
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| 12:15 |
Calinou |
2.0 or higher* |
| 12:15 |
smoke_fumus |
Calinou: its doing all the work |
| 12:15 |
messa4 |
Calinou: and without opengl? omg why u are so obsessed with it |
| 12:16 |
smoke_fumus |
you still need manually cull most of polygons |
| 12:16 |
smoke_fumus |
i mean not even cull |
| 12:16 |
smoke_fumus |
not mention them to render at all |
| 12:16 |
messa4 |
smoke_fumus: i dont talk with u. u disrespected me like 30 times |
| 12:16 |
smoke_fumus |
so it will get only polygons which can be visible |
| 12:16 |
Calinou |
ugly? looks pretty decent to me: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/82342922/minetest/screenshot_2302091633.png |
| 12:16 |
messa4 |
also u lack historical knowlege about game engines. |
| 12:16 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: because you are a retard with jack shit of knowledge |
| 12:16 |
Calinou |
better than quake 2 |
| 12:16 |
smoke_fumus |
who assumes shit |
| 12:16 |
smoke_fumus |
speaks shit |
| 12:16 |
smoke_fumus |
and understands jack shit |
| 12:17 |
Calinou |
aniso + 4× FSAA + 256× texture pack |
| 12:17 |
smoke_fumus |
PERIOD. |
| 12:17 |
Calinou |
and 128 view distance |
| 12:17 |
messa4 |
Calinou: as i said |
| 12:17 |
Calinou |
runs at 65+ FPS just fine |
| 12:17 |
messa4 |
its look like shit . its just big boxes |
| 12:17 |
messa4 |
i can get the same view in quake 2 |
| 12:17 |
messa4 |
question is: why quake is able to do it on pentium 1 without opengl and minetest cant? |
| 12:17 |
Calinou |
lol messa4, go back to phoronix |
| 12:18 |
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| 12:18 |
Calinou |
same view? |
| 12:18 |
messa4 |
sure |
| 12:18 |
Calinou |
try enabling FSAA and anisotropic filtering without mods |
| 12:18 |
Calinou |
and on a pentium I |
| 12:18 |
Calinou |
with 65FPS or more |
| 12:18 |
smoke_fumus |
Calinou: stop it |
| 12:18 |
Calinou |
in 1920×1080 |
| 12:18 |
smoke_fumus |
STOP IT |
| 12:18 |
Calinou |
no u |
| 12:18 |
messa4 |
Calinou: |
| 12:18 |
smoke_fumus |
you are not getting it either |
| 12:18 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: because. quake 1 uses static geometry while BSP tree culling down all unescessary poligons by sector of view |
| 12:18 |
messa4 |
quake 2 looks better then blocks in minecraft... |
| 12:18 |
smoke_fumus |
fucking idiot |
| 12:18 |
iqualfragile |
uhm… guys what are you fighting about? |
| 12:19 |
messa4 |
smoke_fumus: CAN U STOP acting like child? dont disrecpect me!!! |
| 12:19 |
Calinou |
nodes don't necessarily look bad |
| 12:19 |
smoke_fumus |
iqualfragile: that idiot has jack shit of a knowledge about mc-like voxels and talking retardcy |
| 12:19 |
Calinou |
a block is 16×16×16 nodes by the way |
| 12:19 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: can you stop being an idiot? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSP |
| 12:19 |
Calinou |
quake 2 looks way worse |
| 12:19 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_space_partitioning |
| 12:19 |
messa4 |
smoke_fumus: I DONT TALK WITH U ANYMORE. u called me "dumb" "fucker" etc. |
| 12:19 |
messa4 |
go to psychiatrist |
| 12:19 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: for a good reason |
| 12:20 |
smoke_fumus |
john_minetest: give me a second |
| 12:20 |
messa4 |
Calinou: would it be possible to write minecraft/test without opengl? |
| 12:20 |
smoke_fumus |
i'm trying to explain to that bufoon how that works |
| 12:20 |
iqualfragile |
ok: please stop calling each others names |
| 12:20 |
iqualfragile |
messa4: no, it would not |
| 12:20 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: tell me. how do you render geometry without opengl. how do you implement software? |
| 12:20 |
iqualfragile |
you need something wich displays stuff |
| 12:21 |
smoke_fumus |
how do you position 3d geometry and display it |
| 12:21 |
smoke_fumus |
tell me |
| 12:21 |
messa4 |
smoke_fumus: there are millions 3D [full 3d] games with software renderers for example: HALF LIFE or QUAKE 2 |
| 12:21 |
iqualfragile |
wut? |
| 12:21 |
iqualfragile |
nope |
| 12:21 |
messa4 |
yes |
| 12:21 |
iqualfragile |
they use direct x |
| 12:21 |
messa4 |
go and check |
| 12:21 |
messa4 |
nope |
| 12:21 |
smoke_fumus |
SH |
| 12:21 |
smoke_fumus |
SH BOTH OF YOU |
| 12:21 |
messa4 |
there is software renderer in options |
| 12:21 |
smoke_fumus |
they have software mode |
| 12:21 |
iqualfragile |
give me a link |
| 12:21 |
messa4 |
seriouslyt |
| 12:21 |
iqualfragile |
-.- |
| 12:21 |
messa4 |
go and check |
| 12:21 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: and how does they use it? what's their internal software renderer? |
| 12:22 |
iqualfragile |
ok… yeah, ok they have a software render mode, but guess what it uses |
| 12:22 |
messa4 |
games back then suppoerted 3 rendereers: opengl, directx OR software |
| 12:22 |
iqualfragile |
right: directx |
| 12:22 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: i'll tell you what it is - it is same opengl 1.1 only moved to work on cpu and not gpu |
| 12:22 |
iqualfragile |
and software just reffers to using your cpu instead of your gpu |
| 12:22 |
smoke_fumus |
since back then most of pc's had only display-port 1mb mem gpu |
| 12:22 |
messa4 |
go and check guys. no wonder that u are so angru if u NEVER PLAYED THOSE GAMES without opengl card |
| 12:22 |
celeron55 |
quake2 looks like this: http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/quake-ii/screenshots/gameShotId,615425/ |
| 12:22 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: dumbass. |
| 12:22 |
messa4 |
ITS NOT |
| 12:22 |
smoke_fumus |
IT IS |
| 12:23 |
smoke_fumus |
software mode is opengl moved onto cpu |
| 12:23 |
messa4 |
it was not opengl on software - it was not blurry like surface |
| 12:23 |
smoke_fumus |
in 80% of cases |
| 12:23 |
messa4 |
NO ITS NOT |
| 12:23 |
Calinou |
messa4: video_driver = software |
| 12:23 |
messa4 |
it was pure software renderer |
| 12:23 |
messa4 |
no blurness |
| 12:23 |
messa4 |
its not like mesa |
| 12:23 |
iqualfragile |
can somebody please kick smoke_fumus, even throught he is right he uses the wrong words |
| 12:23 |
messa4 |
OMG |
| 12:23 |
messa4 |
just go nad check guys |
| 12:23 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: you dumbass. blurry - antialiasing and filtering. |
| 12:23 |
smoke_fumus |
you can switch filtering to point and get your huge pixels |
| 12:23 |
messa4 |
smoke_fumus: u dont know what u talking about |
| 12:23 |
smoke_fumus |
i know it perfectly |
| 12:23 |
messa4 |
no u dont |
| 12:23 |
smoke_fumus |
because i developing such stuff |
| 12:24 |
celeron55 |
as a matter of fact, neither of you knows what you are talking about |
| 12:24 |
messa4 |
u are calling me "Fucker" all day |
| 12:24 |
smoke_fumus |
you are an idiot who knows jack shit |
| 12:24 |
celeron55 |
you both probably should just stop |
| 12:24 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: you deserve each single word i called you |
| 12:24 |
smoke_fumus |
TWICE |
| 12:24 |
messa4 |
and u never played quake 2 or half life without opengl |
| 12:24 |
messa4 |
ignore |
| 12:24 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: i played doom2 when it came out |
| 12:24 |
smoke_fumus |
so you better watch your retarded words |
| 12:24 |
messa4 |
any good soul here? |
| 12:24 |
smoke_fumus |
little man |
| 12:24 |
messa4 |
with above 25 age |
| 12:24 |
messa4 |
[quake 2, HL etc] |
| 12:24 |
smoke_fumus |
and knowledge of elementary school (in vg) |
| 12:25 |
iqualfragile |
i request halfop (or whatever is the least required privilege to kick people) |
| 12:25 |
messa4 |
and sane. unlike previous person that i was forced to mute |
| 12:25 |
smoke_fumus |
iqualfragile: mate, i'm being sincere. that idiot just disgraces and doesn't understand jack |
| 12:25 |
smoke_fumus |
but has attitude |
| 12:25 |
smoke_fumus |
i'm culling it as i can |
| 12:25 |
smoke_fumus |
although my methods are..well crap |
| 12:26 |
celeron55 |
< messa4> so its your job |
| 12:26 |
iqualfragile |
it does not matter, there is no reason to call him names |
| 12:26 |
celeron55 |
for sure; how much will you pay? |
| 12:26 |
messa4 |
celeron55: whats my job? |
| 12:26 |
celeron55 |
messa4: i am quoting you |
| 12:26 |
messa4 |
i was kidding with that :) |
| 12:26 |
messa4 |
celeron55: are u over 25? |
| 12:27 |
celeron55 |
i'm just a bit over 1337 |
| 12:27 |
iqualfragile |
im 1338 |
| 12:27 |
messa4 |
im serious buddy :) |
| 12:27 |
messa4 |
got some questions about software rendering and minetest. but young ppl dont understand it at all or dont belive |
| 12:27 |
smoke_fumus |
see? |
| 12:27 |
messa4 |
coz all they know is opengl/directx |
| 12:28 |
celeron55 |
so how many 3D games have you implemented? |
| 12:28 |
messa4 |
one in qbasic :) |
| 12:28 |
celeron55 |
messa4: it rendered in full HD and looked better than MT, right? |
| 12:28 |
messa4 |
no |
| 12:28 |
Calinou |
<messa4> its not like mesa |
| 12:29 |
Calinou |
mesa is not a software renderer |
| 12:29 |
Calinou |
again: go back to phoronix |
| 12:29 |
messa4 |
its emulating opengl |
| 12:29 |
Calinou |
"hey, they really need to fix reclocking :rolleyes:" |
| 12:29 |
messa4 |
in software |
| 12:29 |
sapier1 |
mesa contains a software renderer as far as I know |
| 12:29 |
Calinou |
no |
| 12:29 |
Calinou |
mesa uses graphics card... |
| 12:29 |
Calinou |
it's a free GL implementation |
| 12:29 |
messa4 |
software based |
| 12:29 |
sapier1 |
yes if available but it has a software renderer too ... at least older versions |
| 12:29 |
smoke_fumus |
Calinou: you actually can hardwire gl calls to cpu execution - but that's phoronix again |
| 12:29 |
|
Final joined #minetest |
| 12:30 |
messa4 |
anyway: any sane person here with +25 age? and some dos expirience? etc. |
| 12:30 |
sapier1 |
if I remember correct latest mesa version dropped software rendering ... or am I mixing this up with reactos ... not quite sure |
| 12:30 |
smoke_fumus |
can somebody tell him that i'm sorry? |
| 12:30 |
sapier1 |
no we're all <20 ;-P |
| 12:30 |
messa4 |
k |
| 12:31 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: ok now listen. and try to comprehend on the go. but before i start explaining - leave your typical human herd attitude 'i'm older than you - i know everything' outside of the window. |
| 12:31 |
sapier1 |
to be more serious as far as I know you'll find almost any level of experience within mt community |
| 12:31 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: can you read me? |
| 12:32 |
messa4 |
i know u got expirience. but i need to speak with someone who touched and saw the old technology - young ppl cant understand it :| |
| 12:32 |
Calinou |
smoke_fumus: yes, llvmpipe |
| 12:32 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: i touched dos. i were programming wolfenstein-like raycasting engines |
| 12:32 |
Calinou |
have fun playing openarena at 30FPS on a 3960X |
| 12:32 |
smoke_fumus |
and i know enough about technology and its implementations up to the point of 1984 |
| 12:32 |
kahrl |
messa4: there's a reason quake2 maps use fairly simple geometry and often consist of small rooms |
| 12:32 |
Calinou |
george orwell approves |
| 12:33 |
Calinou |
^ |
| 12:33 |
kahrl |
the engine can't handle open spaces at all |
| 12:33 |
Calinou |
paintball2 is a "good" example of this |
| 12:33 |
smoke_fumus |
kahrl: hur hur hur. it can :D |
| 12:33 |
messa4 |
kahrl: u rember software renderer from q2? |
| 12:33 |
Calinou |
(quake2 engine, very open maps) |
| 12:33 |
Calinou |
make a very open map with lots of detailed geometry |
| 12:33 |
smoke_fumus |
there were q1 mod for huge maps for +80players combat |
| 12:33 |
messa4 |
remember* |
| 12:33 |
Calinou |
huehuehue 30 FPS |
| 12:33 |
smoke_fumus |
no, not detailed |
| 12:33 |
smoke_fumus |
but opened, non the less |
| 12:33 |
celeron55 |
Calinou: ...run that on a pentium 1 and you get 2 FPS? 8) |
| 12:34 |
sfan5 |
wow! xz did 129,7 MB -> 19,4 MB |
| 12:34 |
Calinou |
run it on a celeron and get 55 FPS! |
| 12:34 |
messa4 |
:( |
| 12:34 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: software rendering story for steamers. software rendering was middle-chain inbetween accessible home computing video accelerators and professional gpu's which were existant since 1991 |
| 12:34 |
smoke_fumus |
such as sillicon graphics stations and powerVR |
| 12:34 |
sapier1 |
I doubt software rendering will be faster than any current graphics hardware (even intel graphics) |
| 12:35 |
messa4 |
im not saying that |
| 12:35 |
messa4 |
im just asking who remember it. so i can talk with taht person without problems |
| 12:35 |
sapier1 |
so what's your usecase for software rendering? academic reasons only? |
| 12:35 |
messa4 |
or half-life software renderer |
| 12:35 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: first software rendering (286) were dull and very simplistic - simple raycasting with splitting screen onto vertical lines |
| 12:35 |
messa4 |
no. i have some related minetest question |
| 12:36 |
smoke_fumus |
and drawing columns of pixels with size of column == distance |
| 12:37 |
messa4 |
no one? |
| 12:37 |
smoke_fumus |
the software rendering you see in q1 and q2 is nothing more than rudimentary copy of opengl calls written for direct cpu calling. the thing you were calling 'blurry' is bilenear filtering. switch filtering to point - and textures will be pixelated as much as you want to |
| 12:37 |
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| 12:37 |
smoke_fumus |
point or nearest neighbor (synonims in filter techniques) |
| 12:37 |
celeron55 |
messa4: there was a very odd guy in here some years back who was making some kind of a raycasting voxel engine on some very obscure platform |
| 12:38 |
celeron55 |
all i remember is that it ran like crap and nothing came from it 8) |
| 12:38 |
messa4 |
i know who. he posted some nice videos on youtube |
| 12:38 |
smoke_fumus |
celeron55: raycasting has nothing to do with q/hl software mode |
| 12:38 |
messa4 |
about FUEL |
| 12:38 |
messa4 |
game |
| 12:38 |
smoke_fumus |
messa4: so, did you read what i've said? |
| 12:39 |
smoke_fumus |
*bilinear filtering |
| 12:39 |
messa4 |
anyway nvm. and to young guys: download half life or quake2 or unreal tournament - [those games are from 1998-99] and u can use pure software renderer in them. [or opengl if u like or directx]. it was possible. try it out. otherwise u missing A LOT of history |
| 12:40 |
smoke_fumus |
dumbass. |
| 12:40 |
smoke_fumus |
a fucking ignorant dumbass. |
| 12:40 |
celeron55 |
i don't see the point |
| 12:40 |
smoke_fumus |
i hate that kind of human herd idiots. |
| 12:42 |
celeron55 |
i also don't get how one can associate "human herd" with that behavior |
| 12:43 |
celeron55 |
that seems more like some kind of blind nostalgia |
| 12:43 |
smoke_fumus |
celeron55: blind and dumb nostalgia + behavior of 'NANANANA dont' hear you, i'm better than you, i have some experience and i know none of you have, NANANA' - classical human herd which assumes he is smarter than everybody |
| 12:44 |
smoke_fumus |
in my perfect country those should be shot to death on sight |
| 12:44 |
celeron55 |
well whatever, something like that |
| 12:44 |
iqualfragile |
well… i would not want to live in your "perfect country" |
| 12:44 |
iqualfragile |
i guess gue are from 'merca? |
| 12:44 |
smoke_fumus |
no i'm not |
| 12:45 |
smoke_fumus |
i'm just telling that modern society commonly not prevents developing of such behaviors |
| 12:45 |
smoke_fumus |
and not treats them like inapropriate (at least hard enough) |
| 12:45 |
iqualfragile |
sfan5: yeah, xz is quite impressive |
| 12:46 |
sfan5 |
!g spk "archive format" |
| 12:46 |
MinetestBot |
sfan5: https://github.com/sfan5?tab=repositories |
| 12:46 |
sfan5 |
hah! |
| 12:46 |
celeron55 |
smoke_fumus: "modern society" is quite an arbitrary term; "modern western society" is better |
| 12:47 |
smoke_fumus |
not only western no |
| 12:47 |
smoke_fumus |
russian and cis in general as well |
| 12:47 |
celeron55 |
well, russian is quite western |
| 12:47 |
* smoke_fumus |
chuckle |
| 12:47 |
smoke_fumus |
that makes sense |
| 12:47 |
celeron55 |
as far as culture goes |
| 12:47 |
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Koren joined #minetest |
| 12:48 |
smoke_fumus |
i've done some digging. http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/fortunes/shlomif-qoheleth.html looks like that messa4 guy is around 15 |
| 12:48 |
celeron55 |
eg. japanese culture probably differs a whole lot in this thing |
| 12:48 |
smoke_fumus |
celeron55: its built on harder respect circles more |
| 12:49 |
smoke_fumus |
and traditionalism |
| 12:51 |
sfan5 |
in case anyone needs python 3.3.1: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/30267315/python3.3m-linux-amd64.spk.xz |
| 12:52 |
smoke_fumus |
iqualfragile: celeron55: so yea, that messa4 guy is actually a troll |
| 12:52 |
smoke_fumus |
ignoring right users, discussing with half-right ones, stating ignorant facts |
| 12:52 |
smoke_fumus |
that's skilled troll behavior |
| 12:53 |
smoke_fumus |
sfan5: isuggest you ban him for good |
| 12:53 |
celeron55 |
why would anyone want to waste their time like that |
| 12:54 |
smoke_fumus |
developed agressive sociopathy, finding enjoyment in angering others, low selfrespect |
| 12:54 |
celeron55 |
also it's ridiculous how long people care to reply to such |
| 12:54 |
smoke_fumus |
those are few |
| 12:55 |
smoke_fumus |
trolling is certanly just way to redirect your internal mental pains. |
| 12:55 |
smoke_fumus |
by harming mental stability of others and laughing at them |
| 12:55 |
celeron55 |
also i don't think trolling is a good word for what messa4 did |
| 12:55 |
smoke_fumus |
he did some form of it |
| 12:56 |
smoke_fumus |
as far as i can dig into psychology |
| 12:56 |
smoke_fumus |
this just looks like trolling. i was right from the start because i know the basics and advances of such things as software/hardware rendering, internal works. if you read his lines carefully - he misstates himself at least dozen of times |
| 12:56 |
smoke_fumus |
and if you will read log i dropped in link |
| 12:57 |
smoke_fumus |
he states that he is 36 there |
| 12:57 |
smoke_fumus |
but he said he is 25 here |
| 12:57 |
sapier1 |
I personaly prefere good arguments ;-) like the one yesterday night ;-) |
| 12:57 |
smoke_fumus |
read cauciously and give meaning to all mis-statements - i've did so. he is a troll. |
| 12:57 |
smoke_fumus |
ban him for good. |
| 12:57 |
celeron55 |
i think that trolling is stating non-facts as facts and arguing in retarded ways with the intention that it is funny to some people more than the troller itself, poking fun at those "being trolled" |
| 12:58 |
smoke_fumus |
true... |
| 12:58 |
smoke_fumus |
still |
| 12:58 |
smoke_fumus |
let's ban him. |
| 12:58 |
celeron55 |
that's useless; he's not coming back |
| 12:59 |
celeron55 |
and even if he comes, everyone knows he's not worth talking with |
| 12:59 |
sfan5 |
!mute *!*@unaffiliated/messa4 |
| 12:59 |
sfan5 |
just in case.. |
| 12:59 |
smoke_fumus |
:3 thank you |
| 12:59 |
sapier1 |
do you recognize how much time we're wasting to that guy? ;-) |
| 12:59 |
celeron55 |
i do |
| 12:59 |
celeron55 |
and i hate it |
| 12:59 |
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Issa joined #minetest |
| 12:59 |
Issa |
hello |
| 12:59 |
Issa |
im plyed on ubuntu |
| 12:59 |
Issa |
and i m tring to play in full sccreen |
| 13:00 |
smoke_fumus |
sapier1: but but! http://xkcd.com/386/ |
| 13:00 |
Issa |
but the fullscreen not workong |
| 13:00 |
smoke_fumus |
xD |
| 13:00 |
Issa |
so the probléme i have only show minetest on hal of the screen |
| 13:00 |
Issa |
so it's a bug ? |
| 13:00 |
Issa |
for the fulls screen : |
| 13:00 |
Issa |
screenW = 1368 |
| 13:01 |
Issa |
screenH = 768 |
| 13:01 |
Issa |
fullscreen = true |
| 13:03 |
kahrl |
have you tried other resolutions? |
| 13:04 |
kahrl |
I assume your monitor doesn't support that resolution |
| 13:13 |
celeron55 |
maybe change fullscreen_bpp |
| 13:14 |
celeron55 |
fullscreen isn't particularly well supported in any case though (from our nor from irrlicht's side) |
| 13:18 |
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Kacey joined #minetest |
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| 13:27 |
smoke_fumus |
i still wonder why irrlicht and not to example orgre |
| 13:33 |
Koren |
why not irrlicht ? |
| 13:37 |
NakedFury |
why irrlicht was chosen as the game engines? |
| 13:37 |
sapier1 |
switching engine isn't an easy task so unless there's veryveryvery good reason to do it it won't be done ;-) |
| 13:39 |
Koren |
I dont know why it was chosen for minetest but usually it's for its light weight, good perfs and high portability |
| 13:39 |
Koren |
+ its easy to learn and code with |
| 13:49 |
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| 13:49 |
KrisEike |
o/ |
| 13:56 |
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| 13:59 |
celeron55 |
i don't think i saw ogre in any of the 3d engine comparison listings i found when i was researching what to use for my first ever 3D project |
| 13:59 |
celeron55 |
yes, this is that one |
| 14:00 |
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| 14:00 |
KrisEike |
Howdy celeron55. |
| 14:00 |
KrisEike |
Figured i'd try your game again, been a while since i last tried it. |
| 14:00 |
KrisEike |
Looks like it's gotten quite far :) |
| 14:01 |
celeron55 |
i'm not sure if i remember your nick, but that must be a loooong time ago |
| 14:01 |
KrisEike |
Haha, it is. |
| 14:01 |
celeron55 |
it's less of my project than ever these days though, so don't blame me if it sucks |
| 14:01 |
KrisEike |
Oh? |
| 14:01 |
KrisEike |
Busy with school/work? |
| 14:03 |
celeron55 |
i'm not the kind of guy who gets glued to one project for the rest of his life; i have many things in the works as usual |
| 14:03 |
celeron55 |
(also work) |
| 14:04 |
celeron55 |
(also less interest in first-person block games) |
| 14:05 |
KrisEike |
Hahaha |
| 14:05 |
KrisEike |
I've been getting a lot of downloads for my texture pack from Minetst |
| 14:05 |
KrisEike |
minetest* |
| 14:05 |
KrisEike |
Figured i could update it. |
| 14:12 |
celeron55 |
i do commit some stuff once in a while, and i handle the main website... and grumble to people who don't focus on the right things |
| 14:12 |
KrisEike |
lol |
| 14:13 |
KrisEike |
How do i get my TP on the POPULAR part of the site? :P |
| 14:13 |
celeron55 |
bribery and corruption |
| 14:13 |
celeron55 |
:-D |
| 14:13 |
KrisEike |
Works for me |
| 14:13 |
KrisEike |
;D |
| 14:14 |
KrisEike |
Once i finish up working on my Minecraft server i might get started |
| 14:14 |
KrisEike |
Also this is the pack www.minecraftforum.net/topic/144770-hdcraft |
| 14:14 |
KrisEike |
Not sure if people remember it |
| 14:16 |
KrisEike |
43 downloads this month |
| 14:16 |
KrisEike |
and its outdated as shit |
| 14:16 |
KrisEike |
:p |
| 14:19 |
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frogcrush joined #minetest |
| 14:19 |
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frogcrush joined #minetest |
| 14:20 |
MinetestBot |
GIT: kahrl commited to minetest/minetest: Drop IrrlichtDevice when running --speedtests 3332f606ed 2013-05-09T07:18:26-07:00 http://git.io/__J3hw |
| 14:24 |
KrisEike |
This is looking very good celeron55 |
| 14:24 |
KrisEike |
I still hate the sound when walking on grass though ;D |
| 14:25 |
celeron55 |
if you know better, you could propose some better sounds |
| 14:26 |
PilzAdam |
someone really needs to sit down and create a soundpack for minetest_game |
| 14:26 |
KrisEike |
I'd help you out but i don't have any good recording software |
| 14:26 |
KrisEike |
How deep is the world? I'm at 170 blocks down now |
| 14:26 |
KrisEike |
:p |
| 14:27 |
PilzAdam |
31k |
| 14:27 |
KrisEike |
!? |
| 14:27 |
celeron55 |
...deep enough |
| 14:27 |
KrisEike |
LOL |
| 14:27 |
KrisEike |
Way too much for me XD |
| 14:27 |
KrisEike |
IMO 5000 is more than enough |
| 14:27 |
KrisEike |
:p |
| 14:28 |
sapier1 |
just try /teleport 0,-30990,0 |
| 14:28 |
KrisEike |
I cant see anythin |
| 14:28 |
KrisEike |
lol |
| 14:29 |
celeron55 |
there should probably be some terrible monsters stopping you from going there though, but upstream development on that part competes in speed with snails |
| 14:30 |
KrisEike |
celeron55, THe walking on gravel sound is .. strange. You could just use the same sound as the breaking sound |
| 14:31 |
KrisEike |
IMO it sounds just as good |
| 14:31 |
KrisEike |
:) |
| 14:32 |
MinetestBot |
GIT: kahrl commited to minetest/minetest: Add --videomodes option to show available video modes 3b1c3ac678 2013-05-09T07:30:04-07:00 http://git.io/gzK0MQ |
| 14:32 |
KrisEike |
30912 blocks down, and it stops. |
| 14:32 |
KrisEike |
YOU LIED TO MEH |
| 14:33 |
KrisEike |
In all seriousness, this is impressive |
| 14:33 |
whirm |
where does the common mods dir goes? in the mods/ dir? |
| 14:33 |
PilzAdam |
KrisEike, well, it goes up the same amount of blocks |
| 14:33 |
KrisEike |
what the fuck :p |
| 14:33 |
sfan5 |
whirm: the common mods go into "games/common" |
| 14:34 |
whirm |
sfan5: and the fire mod should be found by the mobs mod then? |
| 14:34 |
sfan5 |
whirm: ..yes |
| 14:34 |
whirm |
hm.. |
| 14:34 |
KrisEike |
Very interesting game |
| 14:34 |
KrisEike |
Has a lot of potentioal |
| 14:34 |
KrisEike |
potential .. |
| 14:35 |
celeron55 |
KrisEike: you'll be let down by the horizontal limits though, that too are 31k (altough any sane person understands it's enough there too) |
| 14:36 |
KrisEike |
What do you mean celeron55 ? |
| 14:36 |
celeron55 |
actually, that implied that you wouldn't be sane, sorry for that 8D |
| 14:36 |
whirm |
sfan5: it says default and fire are missing :? |
| 14:37 |
sfan5 |
whirm: download "https://github.com/minetest/common/archive/master.zip" and extract that as "common" in the games folder |
| 14:37 |
KrisEike |
celeron55, I would personally just make the game 15k blocks up and down |
| 14:37 |
KrisEike |
Or 30 |
| 14:37 |
KrisEike |
Idk |
| 14:37 |
KrisEike |
60 sounds veeery much |
| 14:38 |
celeron55 |
limiting it is really up to the game content - they're just the hard engine limits |
| 14:38 |
KrisEike |
But it's amazing how it actually beats the living fuckshit out of MC |
| 14:38 |
whirm |
sfan5: I'm checking out the master branch directly |
| 14:38 |
celeron55 |
but the game content is kind of underdeveloped |
| 14:38 |
KrisEike |
I mean.. MC with 256 blocks |
| 14:38 |
KrisEike |
This with 60k XD |
| 14:38 |
kahrl |
it doesn't actually cost anything to make it 64k instead of 16k |
| 14:38 |
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| 14:38 |
KrisEike |
Really? |
| 14:38 |
KrisEike |
Same amount of FPS and such? |
| 14:39 |
kahrl |
yeah, those blocks aren't generated or loaded unless you go |
| 14:39 |
whirm |
sfan5: it says the mods are missing but if I load the world, I see mobs spawning |
| 14:39 |
kahrl |
go there* |
| 14:39 |
KrisEike |
Oooh nice. |
| 14:39 |
sfan5 |
whirm: then "git clone git://github.com/minetest/common games/common" |
| 14:39 |
sfan5 |
try that |
| 14:39 |
KrisEike |
Though the there's 1 thing i dislike .. |
| 14:39 |
KrisEike |
Why the fuck is there a nyan cat block? XD |
| 14:39 |
sfan5 |
KrisEike: why not? ;) |
| 14:39 |
whirm |
sfan5: that's what I'm doing |
| 14:40 |
KrisEike |
Lol |
| 14:40 |
KrisEike |
I guess there's no mobs yet? |
| 14:40 |
KrisEike |
Since i can't find any, at all |
| 14:40 |
whirm |
KrisEike: you need to get a separate mod for it |
| 14:40 |
KrisEike |
Ah |
| 14:40 |
KrisEike |
Shame. |
| 14:40 |
KrisEike |
Oh well :) |
| 14:42 |
celeron55 |
it's a real shame, but nobody has the balls to put in mobs in the development state they currently are in... and we don't have a proper plan for how to design gameplay related to mobs |
| 14:42 |
KrisEike |
I see |
| 14:42 |
KrisEike |
Not sure how hard it can be to adjust the gameplay |
| 14:42 |
KrisEike |
Give the player a sword and voila |
| 14:43 |
KrisEike |
;D |
| 14:43 |
celeron55 |
it's not hard, somebody just needs to sit down and do it |
| 14:43 |
celeron55 |
and then listen to all the naysay about them not looking like crysis |
| 14:43 |
whirm |
sfan5: I think its just the UI saying the mods are missing, I've killed a couple of sand mosters already |
| 14:43 |
whirm |
XDD |
| 14:43 |
KrisEike |
celeron55, Game still in alpha, mobs still in alpha. |
| 14:44 |
KrisEike |
Your excuse for everything ;D |
| 14:44 |
celeron55 |
that's know to work until you slap 1.0 on the exact same thing :D |
| 14:44 |
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| 14:44 |
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Calinou joined #minetest |
| 14:44 |
Zeg9 |
Hi |
| 14:44 |
sfan5 |
hi Zeg9 |
| 14:45 |
KrisEike |
celeron55, What's your gal for the game? |
| 14:45 |
KrisEike |
Goal* |
| 14:45 |
KrisEike |
Adventure, building? creativity? |
| 14:45 |
KrisEike |
killing everything with a sword |
| 14:46 |
Calinou |
playing minecraft |
| 14:46 |
Calinou |
^ the goal |
| 14:46 |
KrisEike |
Oh god it's you. |
| 14:46 |
KrisEike |
o_o |
| 14:47 |
KrisEike |
Someone give ma IP to play on |
| 14:47 |
KrisEike |
Quickz! |
| 14:47 |
KrisEike |
give me a ip* lol |
| 14:47 |
kahrl |
127.0.0.1 |
| 14:47 |
celeron55 |
well the original vision was leaning towards stealing treasures from monsters, but since then focus has slipped to all kinds of related and non-related things |
| 14:48 |
kahrl |
:D |
| 14:48 |
sfan5 |
KrisEike: look in the server list |
| 14:48 |
KrisEike |
kahrl, is trolling meh |
| 14:48 |
sfan5 |
what about 127.64.12.9 ? |
| 14:48 |
KrisEike |
found one anyway |
| 14:48 |
KrisEike |
lol |
| 14:48 |
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| 14:48 |
iqualfragile |
KrisEike: ip: 10.0.0.2 |
| 14:49 |
KrisEike |
celeron55, So.. mostly what MC does then |
| 14:49 |
KrisEike |
;D |
| 14:49 |
KrisEike |
I'd say adding more creative blocks would be the best next step |
| 14:50 |
KrisEike |
Chill with mobs untill ready |
| 14:50 |
celeron55 |
anyone can do that by installing one of the hundred mods that add creative blocks |
| 14:53 |
KrisEike |
Mods? fuck that shit |
| 14:53 |
KrisEike |
Add it all to the game! |
| 14:53 |
KrisEike |
:D |
| 14:53 |
celeron55 |
well, mods are a whole different things in MT than in MC |
| 14:53 |
kahrl |
the 'vanilla' game consists of mods :) |
| 14:55 |
KrisEike |
Lost me tehre |
| 14:55 |
KrisEike |
there* |
| 14:55 |
celeron55 |
there is nothing to compile or decompile, nothing to patch, (usually) nothing to update for new MT versions, and making them requires nothing but a text editor and a copy of minetest |
| 14:55 |
Warr1024 |
someone should strip the trailing slashes from the root folders in .gitignore, i.e. "/cache" instead of "/cache/". When I use a symlink instead of a folder, git status is showing that as a modification... |
| 14:56 |
sfan5 |
"16:53:06: ACTION[ServerThread]: ass joins game. List of players: ass" |
| 14:56 |
sfan5 |
^ what? |
| 14:56 |
KrisEike |
Who stole the skins from minecraft? XD |
| 14:56 |
KrisEike |
I see MC players runnin around in MT |
| 14:57 |
sfan5 |
KrisEike: mc players? |
| 14:57 |
sfan5 |
you mean the model? |
| 14:57 |
KrisEike |
Yeah |
| 14:57 |
KrisEike |
and textures |
| 14:57 |
KrisEike |
:p |
| 14:57 |
sfan5 |
... |
| 14:57 |
sfan5 |
the textures are not stolen from mc |
| 14:57 |
KrisEike |
Ok not stolen |
| 14:57 |
KrisEike |
bad word |
| 14:57 |
KrisEike |
:p |
| 14:57 |
Warr1024 |
depends on the server; some servers might use custom mc-like textures... |
| 14:57 |
sfan5 |
(but the server you're playing on can change the textures) |
| 14:57 |
sfan5 |
the model is kind of same looking |
| 14:58 |
KrisEike |
Ah |
| 14:58 |
KrisEike |
I found chairs |
| 14:58 |
KrisEike |
:o |
| 14:58 |
sfan5 |
that means the server you're playing on definitly has mods |
| 14:58 |
Warr1024 |
another day, another compile... |
| 14:59 |
Warr1024 |
takes like 20 minutes on my atom n450 netbook |
| 14:59 |
KrisEike |
Does that mean i will see the mobs too? |
| 14:59 |
Warr1024 |
KrisEike: try "/mods" command |
| 15:00 |
sfan5 |
KrisEike: if you join a server with mods, your client will automatically download the mods |
| 15:00 |
KrisEike |
Oh my god |
| 15:00 |
KrisEike |
that's epic sfan5 |
| 15:00 |
Warr1024 |
yeah, client thinness rules |
| 15:01 |
sfan5 |
KrisEike: actually just the textures, models, sounds and node/crafting/etc. definitons are downloaded |
| 15:01 |
KrisEike |
I see |
| 15:01 |
KrisEike |
Might be hard to make textures for all of this |
| 15:11 |
MinetestBot |
GIT: Sapier at GMX dot net commited to minetest/minetest: Really fix itemdef memory leak ee1155fe6d 2013-05-09T08:08:23-07:00 http://git.io/a8xcWA |
| 15:18 |
KrisEike |
Eh |
| 15:18 |
KrisEike |
Where is the textures located? |
| 15:19 |
PilzAdam |
KrisEike, textures are usually in the textures/ folder of mods |
| 15:19 |
KrisEike |
Nothing there |
| 15:19 |
KrisEike |
:p |
| 15:19 |
PilzAdam |
texture packs are installed in $path_user/textures/all/ |
| 15:19 |
PilzAdam |
(without sub directories) |
| 15:20 |
KrisEike |
Hm i need to download a tp then edit it then i guess |
| 15:20 |
PilzAdam |
KrisEike, https://github.com/minetest/common/tree/master/mods/default/textures |
| 15:20 |
KrisEike |
Ah |
| 15:20 |
KrisEike |
Can i download all that at once? |
| 15:21 |
PilzAdam |
you already have that |
| 15:21 |
PilzAdam |
(in games/common/mods/default/textures/) |
| 15:21 |
KrisEike |
Okay |
| 15:21 |
KrisEike |
So i just add all these textures |
| 15:21 |
KrisEike |
Into 1 folder |
| 15:21 |
KrisEike |
and it works? |
| 15:21 |
KrisEike |
No subfolders? |
| 15:22 |
PilzAdam |
yes |
| 15:22 |
KrisEike |
I see |
| 15:22 |
KrisEike |
Well, thanks :) |
| 15:22 |
KrisEike |
Will try that |
| 15:22 |
KrisEike |
Dinner now.. afk ;) |
| 15:23 |
tripod |
BAI! |
| 15:24 |
smoke_fumus |
fuck yeah http://screencast.com/t/BRqyjmi0 http://screencast.com/t/AA3YFFQYFBz 3 day spent and finally i have some sort voxels |
| 15:24 |
tripod |
Calinou: did you highlight me in this channel? |
| 15:24 |
Issa |
smoke_fumus, what ide u use to o this ? |
| 15:24 |
Issa |
is blender, no ? |
| 15:24 |
smoke_fumus |
that's unity 3d |
| 15:25 |
Issa |
what u create ? |
| 15:25 |
smoke_fumus |
have you played x-com3 apocalypse |
| 15:25 |
Issa |
no |
| 15:25 |
Issa |
what is it ? |
| 15:25 |
smoke_fumus |
jagged alliance? |
| 15:25 |
tripod |
unity is a badass engine |
| 15:25 |
tripod |
everyone has play ja/ja2 |
| 15:25 |
Issa |
is unreal engin |
| 15:26 |
Issa |
link pleas ? |
| 15:26 |
smoke_fumus |
i'm creating voxel shooter which from first looks is ace of spades clone, but actually it is tribute to x-com3 apocalypse in general and jagged alliance in lesser form |
| 15:26 |
Issa |
ok |
| 15:28 |
smoke_fumus |
mainly because i'm about to add walls (internal voxel will be split onto additional logical parts - 4 walls and floor tile. |
| 15:28 |
smoke_fumus |
and huge destruction with breaking supports algorythm |
| 15:31 |
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| 15:31 |
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frogcrush joined #minetest |
| 15:36 |
Warr1024 |
anyone having trouble with player:hud_add? |
| 15:36 |
Warr1024 |
when I join the server, it works, then I quit, and later rejoin, and then nothing... |
| 15:36 |
KrisEike |
Back. |
| 15:36 |
Calinou |
tripod: yes |
| 15:38 |
celeron55 |
Warr1024: how is hud_add used? |
| 15:39 |
Warr1024 |
on joinplayer, it registers a 1-second delay using after(), then in that callback it adds the hud to player that was passed into joinplayer |
| 15:40 |
celeron55 |
well, that should work |
| 15:40 |
Warr1024 |
do I need to do proper tear-down and remove huds on player disconnect? |
| 15:40 |
Warr1024 |
or will that stuff get gc'd for me |
| 15:40 |
celeron55 |
no; none of it is persistent |
| 15:40 |
celeron55 |
the client forgets them at the instant it disconnects, and the server doesn't even know what has been sent to the client |
| 15:41 |
Warr1024 |
ah, ok |
| 15:42 |
Warr1024 |
doesn't seem to matter whether I close the client completely or just disconnect back to the main menu, doesn't work either way |
| 15:42 |
Warr1024 |
maybe I need to wait for the player to connect completely...? Is there some way to tell? |
| 15:42 |
Warr1024 |
I noticed that get_player_control() is giving me junk results when the player is still in the process of connecting, i.e. before player has any control |
| 15:43 |
Warr1024 |
different random-ish keys will be "pressed" |
| 15:43 |
celeron55 |
have you tried adding a longer delay before using hud_add? |
| 15:44 |
Warr1024 |
I'd like to, but there's no fixed delay that will guarantee it would work, since clients take a different amount of time between "connecting" and actually gaining control to play. |
| 15:44 |
celeron55 |
(i know it's hacky, but as of now it appears to be needed) |
| 15:44 |
Warr1024 |
a possibly better hacky solution would be to capture player position, yaw, and pitch on connect, then poll to see when one of those changes first |
| 15:44 |
Warr1024 |
thus as long as the player is frozen still, they're not considered "connected" |
| 15:45 |
Warr1024 |
but again, still not quite right. |
| 15:45 |
celeron55 |
well, on_joinplayer shouldn't be called before everything is ready; that's how it should be fixed |
| 15:45 |
Warr1024 |
true |
| 15:45 |
kahrl |
I've used a delay of 0 seconds without problems, but I might have gotten lucky |
| 15:46 |
celeron55 |
it's really because of in the server-client context, the client and the player is a different thing, but in the lua context, there are just players |
| 15:46 |
Warr1024 |
I'd love to fire a merge req your way to fix it, but I don't know the engine code well enough :-) |
| 15:46 |
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zRokh joined #minetest |
| 15:46 |
zRokh |
hi |
| 15:46 |
khonkhortisan |
hello |
| 15:47 |
khonkhortisan |
and welcome to #minetest, an irc channel for a game |
| 15:47 |
zRokh |
i know what it is... |
| 15:47 |
PilzAdam |
khonkhortisan, are you a bot? |
| 15:47 |
zRokh |
im a local here |
| 15:48 |
* Zeg9 |
wonders how much time it will take before zRokh is muted |
| 15:48 |
zRokh |
hey PilzAdam |
| 15:48 |
zRokh |
im Ragnar |
| 15:48 |
khonkhortisan |
if only I was |
| 15:48 |
zRokh |
:D |
| 15:48 |
Warr1024 |
In the mean-time, I might try messing with hud_remove and re-hud_add to see if that can at least "heal" the situation if it pops up... |
| 15:48 |
zRokh |
Original = http://ompldr.org/vaWN2YQ/me2.png , Drawn by me = http://ompldr.org/vaWN2OQ/asdf.jpg |
| 15:49 |
zRokh |
#ART-SKILLZa |
| 15:49 |
zRokh |
http://www.youtube.com/user/zRokh = Me on YouTube :D |
| 15:51 |
zRokh |
who likey :D |
| 15:53 |
celeron55 |
nobody |
| 15:54 |
zRokh |
stop flattering :P |
| 15:54 |
khonkhortisan |
I can't post on youtube because I can't take an account from myself |
| 15:55 |
zRokh |
bye maybe |
| 15:55 |
zRokh |
if i dont get disconnected im back |
| 15:55 |
zRokh |
bye for now |
| 15:55 |
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| 15:55 |
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Vargos joined #minetest |
| 15:56 |
Warr1024 |
yeah, hacky remove-and-re-add solution worked |
| 15:56 |
Warr1024 |
I just keep track of the "age" of each hud and remove it after 10 seconds. |
| 15:56 |
Warr1024 |
then if the hud is missing, re-add it automatically |
| 15:56 |
Warr1024 |
ain't elegant, but it's usable, for now |
| 15:57 |
celeron55 |
by the way, what're you adding to the hud? 8) |
| 15:57 |
Warr1024 |
yet another oxygen meter :-D |
| 15:57 |
Warr1024 |
though I tied "stamina" into the same system, so jumping around a lot uses up O2 as well. |
| 15:58 |
Warr1024 |
having your head in a liquid or solid uses stamina, not having your head in a solid or liquid allows it to refill. |
| 15:58 |
Warr1024 |
walking uses it up, jumping uses it faster |
| 15:58 |
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| 15:58 |
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markveidemanis joined #minetest |
| 15:58 |
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| 15:59 |
Warr1024 |
wading or treading water uses it faster, sneaking refills it faster |
| 15:59 |
Warr1024 |
it's kind of complicated as-is |
| 15:59 |
celeron55 |
so that makes the goal of the game standing still? :P |
| 15:59 |
Warr1024 |
but one interesting side-effect is that it make building stairs actually valuable. |
| 15:59 |
Warr1024 |
and bridges, or boats (if available) |
| 16:00 |
Warr1024 |
walking uses up stamina slightly slower than having your head in air refills it, so just plain walking will actually allow your stamina to refill slowly |
| 16:00 |
Issa |
hello celeron55 |
| 16:00 |
Issa |
hwo are u |
| 16:01 |
Issa |
u are the master of minetest |
| 16:01 |
Warr1024 |
which means that you can avoid the annoyances of having to catch your breath by building up infrastructure... |
| 16:01 |
Issa |
what other project u work ? |
| 16:02 |
frogcrush |
john_minetest: I agree |
| 16:02 |
Warr1024 |
well, I started playing minetest about a week ago, and wrote my first mod last night, so it's not necessarily going to be brilliant :-) |
| 16:03 |
kahrl |
I don't see how it would retain HUD elements between game starts. When you create a new Client object it creates a new LocalPlayer which has an empty list of hud elements |
| 16:03 |
Calinou |
Issa: a few 2D games and that's all :> |
| 16:04 |
Calinou |
more or less |
| 16:04 |
Warr1024 |
I have to retain the hud ID in a local table server-side, but when I reconnect the same client a second time, I get a new HUD ID. |
| 16:04 |
Warr1024 |
so there must be some server-side resource for it, if nothing more than a client/server ID mapping... |
| 16:04 |
Issa |
Calinou, = celeron55 |
| 16:07 |
Warr1024 |
btw, you wanna talk about "hacky," well, I'm storing the player's current stamina level in a hidden inventory slot :-) |
| 16:07 |
PilzAdam |
Warr1024, thats the hackiest idea I heard for a while :D |
| 16:07 |
* PilzAdam |
likes |
| 16:08 |
Warr1024 |
I wanted to make sure it got written out to disk as often as the rest of the player data, and I noticed that some other similar mods stored their data in private tables, then used a shutdown hook to write them out. Shutdown hooks are not reliable... |
| 16:09 |
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| 16:10 |
Warr1024 |
I actually find it odd that the map is apparently stored in a sqlite db, but there are a number of other things that are world-related and are written out to separate files, most notably player data. |
| 16:11 |
Warr1024 |
I noticed that in a certain other game whose name begins with "mine," a player could dump a bunch of inventory into a chest, then if the server crashed before the player disconnected, there was a chance that the player's inventory would be restored to the pre-drop-in-chest state, i.e. dupe all those items. |
| 16:28 |
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| 16:31 |
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| 16:31 |
Mati^1 |
hi |
| 16:47 |
celeron55 |
Warr1024: there's a sane reason why minetest uses an sqlite database and discrete files: the database is used solely to store a certain data type, called MapBlocks, that were previously stored in files but which seriously overloaded any filesystem out there because of the amount of them |
| 16:48 |
celeron55 |
and anything else isn't put in there because we're looking for a less bloated alternative (there is a leveldb implementation out there, but we're hesitant to use it because reading it with external tools would be hard - there's much more support for sqlite out there) |
| 16:48 |
Warr1024 |
I can see some advantages to storing some of the data in discrete files, from an accessibility perspective (i.e. the "power of plain text"), but there would be a reliability advantage to storing more data in sqlite, i.e. ACID. |
| 16:49 |
celeron55 |
(actually this is more of my own opinion though) |
| 16:49 |
Warr1024 |
sqlite storage was actually a mod I was strongly considering for a certain other mining-oriented game :-) |
| 16:51 |
celeron55 |
also there is the fact that our sqlite implementation will break for maps of over 2 or so GB of size - the largest servers are already using leveldb because of that |
| 16:51 |
Warr1024 |
hm, sounds like back-end storage plugins are the way to go... |
| 16:51 |
kahrl |
To really make use of ACID a transaction API would have to be exposed on the lua side |
| 16:51 |
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| 16:51 |
Warr1024 |
or you could do some god-awful "sharding" strategy where you split the world into different sqlite databases accessed in parallel. |
| 16:51 |
kahrl |
I think that would be too complicated |
| 16:53 |
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zRokh joined #minetest |
| 16:53 |
zRokh |
http://www.youtube.com/user/zRokh/ --- Updates on the channel |
| 16:53 |
PilzAdam |
zRokh, stop it |
| 16:53 |
zRokh |
stop what? |
| 16:53 |
zRokh |
=) |
| 16:53 |
PilzAdam |
advertising your channel |
| 16:53 |
Warr1024 |
kahrl: yes and no; the game runs in cycles, right? you could just batch up a certain number of cycles, or a all cycles for a fixed amount of time, into a single transaction. |
| 16:53 |
Warr1024 |
the value being that you can recover sanely from a power failure without random world corruption. |
| 16:54 |
zRokh |
why? i know MANY have done it here! |
| 16:54 |
zRokh |
so why cant i? |
| 16:54 |
zRokh |
hmmm? =P |
| 16:54 |
sfan5 |
zRokh: many have advertised their channel here? |
| 16:54 |
sfan5 |
i don't think so |
| 16:54 |
zRokh |
yes. |
| 16:54 |
sfan5 |
!op |
| 16:54 |
zRokh |
NO |
| 16:55 |
zRokh |
ill prove it! |
| 16:55 |
sfan5 |
please provice a link to logs |
| 16:55 |
zRokh |
tomorrow... |
| 16:55 |
zRokh |
time almost up... |
| 16:55 |
sfan5 |
no, not tomorrow, today! |
| 16:55 |
zRokh |
1 min left |
| 16:55 |
zRokh |
i cant... |
| 16:55 |
zRokh |
DUH! |
| 16:55 |
Warr1024 |
quick, feed it more coins! |
| 16:55 |
zRokh |
45 seconds |
| 16:55 |
zRokh |
xD |
| 16:55 |
|
zRokh was kicked by sfan5: zRokh |
| 16:55 |
sfan5 |
!deop |
| 16:56 |
celeron55 |
youtube channels in here this year: http://paste.dy.fi/yFe/plain |
| 16:56 |
celeron55 |
(bad regex, pulled something non-channels too) |
| 16:57 |
celeron55 |
but anyway, there has been no advertising except once by NekoGloop |
| 16:58 |
Warr1024 |
did you check for youtube\.com|youtu\.be ? |
| 16:58 |
Warr1024 |
:-) |
| 16:58 |
celeron55 |
huh, i guess i should |
| 16:59 |
celeron55 |
well, no .be there |
| 17:00 |
KrisEike |
What's default_mese.png ? |
| 17:00 |
KrisEike |
A ore? a full block? |
| 17:01 |
PilzAdam |
fullb block |
| 17:01 |
PilzAdam |
-b |
| 17:01 |
KrisEike |
Then what the hell is default_mese_block ? |
| 17:01 |
KrisEike |
XD |
| 17:01 |
Warr1024 |
how do you pronounce that anyway? |
| 17:02 |
PilzAdam |
well, default_mese.png isnt used anymore |
| 17:03 |
KrisEike |
Then off it goes |
| 17:03 |
KrisEike |
;) |
| 17:09 |
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| 17:36 |
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| 17:36 |
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| 17:36 |
KrisEike |
HDCraft updated for Minetest! :) |
| 17:36 |
KrisEike |
http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=89188#p89188 |
| 17:37 |
Zeg9 |
Oh, now I remember where I saw your name, KrisEike |
| 17:37 |
KrisEike |
:P |
| 17:38 |
Calinou |
octavian server still exists? |
| 17:38 |
dante123 |
!up minetest.info.tm |
| 17:38 |
Calinou |
mmmph |
| 17:38 |
MinetestBot |
minetest.info.tm:30000 seems to be down |
| 17:38 |
KrisEike |
Yes Calinou |
| 17:38 |
dante123 |
!up minetest.info.tm |
| 17:38 |
Calinou |
aren't your tool textures a bit offset, too? |
| 17:38 |
MinetestBot |
minetest.info.tm:30000 seems to be down |
| 17:39 |
Calinou |
on the third screenshot |
| 17:39 |
KrisEike |
idk |
| 17:39 |
KrisEike |
old pictures |
| 17:39 |
Calinou |
KrisEike: in git there are desert stone bricks and sandstone bricks |
| 17:39 |
|
bas0801 joined #minetest |
| 17:39 |
Calinou |
both have a bricky-like look, desert stone bricks having a color similar to desert stone |
| 17:39 |
KrisEike |
Aha |
| 17:40 |
Calinou |
default_desert_stone_brick.png |
| 17:40 |
KrisEike |
Meh if people want it added they can give me the png |
| 17:40 |
Calinou |
default_sandstone_brick.png |
| 17:40 |
KrisEike |
and i might add it |
| 17:40 |
Calinou |
for sandstone brick you could base it off the smooth sandstone from MC |
| 17:40 |
dante123 |
!up minetest.info.tm |
| 17:40 |
MinetestBot |
minetest.info.tm:30000 is up (0.383ms) |
| 17:40 |
Calinou |
and color it red-ish for desert stone brick |
| 17:40 |
* Zeg9 |
shouldn't even have considered the idea of making clouds in the loading screen. progress bar was enough |
| 17:41 |
Calinou |
it's ok |
| 17:41 |
Calinou |
does it slow down loading time? |
| 17:42 |
Zeg9 |
No, just that it is a huge pain to program |
| 17:43 |
thexyz |
then don't do it |
| 17:43 |
Zeg9 |
I am nearly done with it. I won't abandon now. |
| 17:45 |
KrisEike |
Off i go |
| 17:45 |
KrisEike |
http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=89188 If anyone can take more pictures i'd be grateful! |
| 17:45 |
KrisEike |
afk |
| 17:49 |
Issa |
the picture of krisEike is realy HD ? |
| 17:49 |
Issa |
i don't hink |
| 17:53 |
Warr1024 |
ok, I "fixed" the problem of the hud not reappearing when a player quits and rejoins by removing and replacing it every 5 seconds, and I "fixed" the problem of the flicker that THAT caused by adding the replacement hud first, then removing the old one async after an extra half second... |
| 17:54 |
celeron55 |
lol |
| 17:54 |
Warr1024 |
hacky, but at least apparently stable |
| 17:54 |
Warr1024 |
it'll hold me over until the bugs with player joining and missing huds are figured out properly |
| 17:55 |
Warr1024 |
I gotta say though, love this game. |
| 17:55 |
Warr1024 |
I'm particularly impressed that it runs better on my OpenBSD Atom n450 netbook than MC ran on my Debian Wheezy Core 2 Duo. |
| 17:57 |
celeron55 |
MC back in the alpha days was delightfully lightweight; these days it doesn't really run on other than gaming computers |
| 17:58 |
celeron55 |
it's sad |
| 17:58 |
celeron55 |
good for us though :-D |
| 17:58 |
Zeg9 |
Agree :p |
| 17:58 |
Warr1024 |
I have a higher draw dist and many more 3d features enabled in MT too; my bottleneck is still the CPU. |
| 17:59 |
Warr1024 |
in MC I had more of a GPU bottleneck, but both were still pretty bad |
| 17:59 |
Zeg9 |
MT server doesn't use 2GB of ram, that is a good point too |
| 17:59 |
Warr1024 |
oh, yeah, forgot about that :-) |
| 17:59 |
Zeg9 |
^ even with 50 mods/plugins |
| 18:00 |
* Zeg9 |
is leaving, bye |
| 18:00 |
Warr1024 |
The only slowdown I experienced was after I installed PilzAdam's simple mobs mod, and that seemed to be due to hundreds of rats spawning and never disappearing on their own... |
| 18:01 |
Warr1024 |
probably easy enough to patch up... |
| 18:01 |
celeron55 |
MT's collision detection implementation isn't particularly fast |
| 18:01 |
ShadowNinja |
Warr1024: That mod brought Menche's server to the ground while it was installed. |
| 18:01 |
Warr1024 |
it wasn't server-side slowdown, it was client |
| 18:01 |
Calinou |
and is buggy since nodeboxes were added, and is even worse since Taoki[laptop] put his physics changes :P |
| 18:01 |
Warr1024 |
I think in my case it was processing the extra entity movement update packets. |
| 18:02 |
Calinou |
celeron55: it runs fine on an HD4000, so no |
| 18:02 |
Calinou |
in normal+fancy with optifine, minecraft is very lightweight for a popular game |
| 18:02 |
Warr1024 |
I needed optifine to make it playable |
| 18:02 |
celeron55 |
Calinou: HD4000 is like 10x faster than the crappiest thing on which you can run MT quite fine |
| 18:02 |
celeron55 |
or 20x |
| 18:03 |
Calinou |
well, yeah |
| 18:03 |
Calinou |
it's something you find on most laptops today |
| 18:03 |
Calinou |
since last year |
| 18:03 |
Warr1024 |
I generally don't bother with anything except integrated graphics anymore |
| 18:03 |
Warr1024 |
too hard to find decent open-source drivers |
| 18:04 |
celeron55 |
i mean... HD4000 is like the fastest you need to run MT with it's "highest settings"... |
| 18:04 |
celeron55 |
:D |
| 18:04 |
celeron55 |
you don't gain almost anything with faster than that |
| 18:05 |
ShadowNinja |
MT runs good on a HD4000. That is what I have, tops at about a view range of 100. |
| 18:05 |
ShadowNinja |
(while remaining smooth) |
| 18:06 |
Warr1024 |
I'm getting 15fps, v_range = 32, and burning about 15 watts. |
| 18:07 |
Warr1024 |
seems pretty efficient to me |
| 18:07 |
celeron55 |
that's quite terrible, but so is your hardware :P |
| 18:07 |
Warr1024 |
for certain values of "terrible," certainly. |
| 18:08 |
Warr1024 |
I can do v_range of 240, 30fps, but it takes about 4x the power. |
| 18:08 |
Warr1024 |
or maybe it was 6x? I can't remember how much my other laptop burns... |
| 18:09 |
celeron55 |
what kind of a laptop can burn 60W? |
| 18:09 |
Warr1024 |
that might be at the outlet, i.e. including the power brick. |
| 18:09 |
celeron55 |
i've seen 30W, but 60 needs so much airflow it must sound like a vacuum cleaner |
| 18:11 |
celeron55 |
power bricks are often something like 60W to accomodate full load plus full battery charging |
| 18:11 |
Warr1024 |
Anyway, didn't mean to make this into a contest (I'm on OpenBSD, so clearly performance tuning was not a big priority for me). Just wanted to say that MT's performance is really refreshing, so... thanks :-) |
| 18:12 |
celeron55 |
oh whatever 8) |
| 18:12 |
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| 18:16 |
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| 18:19 |
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| 18:19 |
kaeza |
hi all |
| 18:26 |
* sokomine |
likes MTs performance as well |
| 18:26 |
sokomine |
hi :-) |
| 18:28 |
sokomine |
good to hear that a hd4000 would be perfect. still have to decide what to buy...with development gone almost to a halt on desktop pcs, maybe waiting for haswell might make sense. or i just buy the cheapest celeron and don't care about quiet cooling or a new case or whatever :-) |
| 18:37 |
celeron55 |
well i've learned that if i want to get a single thing right in a computer, it's the amount of noise |
| 18:38 |
celeron55 |
anything else is secondary and completely irrelevant if the thing makes too much noise |
| 18:38 |
Warr1024 |
argh, these freakin' HUD's |
| 18:38 |
Warr1024 |
thought I had the problem fixed, or at least worked around |
| 18:38 |
Warr1024 |
thought wrong. |
| 18:39 |
celeron55 |
maybe you should pastebin the code and see if others find an obvious bug in it |
| 18:40 |
NakedFury |
that helps |
| 18:40 |
NakedFury |
always |
| 18:40 |
sokomine |
that's right. before this one, i kept a computer for almost 9 years. the fans got extremly loud so it was time to replace it. fortionately it seems to be relatively easy to get current pcs quiet. power consumtion and subsequently noise is something where development seems to have taken place |
| 18:42 |
Issa |
hello |
| 18:43 |
Issa |
i m looking on the website of my favorite texte pacl |
| 18:43 |
Issa |
Sphx test Bdcraft |
| 18:43 |
Issa |
and i show this video ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nI7uz1EIdzI#! |
| 18:44 |
ShadowNinja |
ShadowBot: title http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nI7uz1EIdzI#! |
| 18:44 |
ShadowBot |
ShadowNinja: "Our World" (Minecraft w/ Sonic Ethers Shaders + PureBDCraft x512 + Real Clouds) - YouTube |
| 18:45 |
Issa |
look this --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=Vunk72tZf5Q&feature=endscreen |
| 18:45 |
Issa |
it's pretty nice |
| 18:45 |
Warr1024 |
ok, kinda problematic. gist.github.com and pastebin.com are both not working right. |
| 18:45 |
ShadowNinja |
ShadowBot: title http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Vunk72tZf5Q |
| 18:45 |
ShadowBot |
ShadowNinja: Realistic Ocean in Minecraft (VFX breakdown) - YouTube |
| 18:46 |
ShadowNinja |
Warr1024: pastebin.ubuntu.com, pastebin.progval.net, etc. |
| 18:48 |
Warr1024 |
http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/5648712/ |
| 18:48 |
Warr1024 |
thanks |
| 18:49 |
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| 18:49 |
sfan5 |
celeron55: you got 333 posts |
| 18:50 |
Warr1024 |
regression testing to make sure the code I just posted behaves exactly as described... |
| 18:50 |
Warr1024 |
yep, confirmed, hud is there first time, quit and rejoin and it's gone. |
| 18:51 |
Warr1024 |
I commented out my hackish recreation code, but that didn't work reliably when I tried it. |
| 18:51 |
Warr1024 |
seemed to work the first couple of times, but I may have been testing wrong. |
| 18:52 |
Warr1024 |
it seems to take about 30 seconds or so between the time I show up on the server logs vs. am actually in the game. |
| 18:52 |
Warr1024 |
though again that number is subject to significant variation. |
| 18:53 |
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| 18:55 |
Warr1024 |
basically, every so often, in globalstep (which I should probably replace with timers or after() callbacks or something) it does an oxygen check on all players |
| 18:55 |
Warr1024 |
it ends up setting oxy level for each player, which results in calling oxyhud, which creates the hud (if missing) and sets the value. |
| 18:55 |
Warr1024 |
it also used to remove the hud and try to recreate it, but again, that didn't work the second time the player connected. |
| 18:56 |
celeron55 |
Warr1024: is it possible that in your code this happens: player joins, code sets huds[name] = something, player leaves, player joins, code checks that yeah, huds[name] has something, and doesn't add hud? |
| 18:56 |
ShadowNinja |
Warr1024: Try using register_on_joinplayer. |
| 18:57 |
Warr1024 |
yeah, hold on, I hastily commented out some things that seemed to be clouding the core issue |
| 18:57 |
sokomine |
wrr: noticed that several times as well. people greeted me before i could actually see anything |
| 18:57 |
Warr1024 |
lemme make sure my hud data is getting disposed first... |
| 18:58 |
Warr1024 |
ok, I'm nilling out that hud table entry on both joinplayer and leaveplayer... |
| 18:58 |
Warr1024 |
retesting... |
| 19:03 |
Warr1024 |
argh, still no love |
| 19:04 |
Warr1024 |
it's definitely getting a different hud ID. |
| 19:04 |
Warr1024 |
got 0 the first time and worked, 1 the second time and didn't |
| 19:04 |
Warr1024 |
I figured it was possible the hud ID's got desynced server/client, so I tried hard-coding 0, but no luck there either; it was kind of a longshot, anyway. |
| 19:05 |
celeron55 |
so if you delete all code except add code that uses add_hud in on_joinplayer, it fails to work? |
| 19:05 |
celeron55 |
*always uses |
| 19:05 |
celeron55 |
kaeza, hmmmm, whoever who actually knows something about this: do you have any idea? |
| 19:05 |
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| 19:06 |
kaeza |
celeron55, Warr1024, I have no problems setting hud with a 0.5 sec delay |
| 19:06 |
Warr1024 |
lemme do that |
| 19:08 |
kaeza |
Warr1024, in most cases, you'll probably be updating the HUD frequently (like every half second) |
| 19:09 |
Warr1024 |
ok, I tried without the delay, straight-up joinplayer, and got nothing the first time. |
| 19:09 |
Warr1024 |
why's that delay necessary anyway? |
| 19:10 |
kaeza |
not sure |
| 19:10 |
Warr1024 |
that's a bit scary |
| 19:10 |
kaeza |
but minetest.chat_send_player() also does not work without the delay |
| 19:10 |
kaeza |
It may be because the player has not "emerged" yet |
| 19:10 |
Warr1024 |
crap, found bug in my test code, gotta retest |
| 19:11 |
kaeza |
again, not sure |
| 19:11 |
Warr1024 |
yeah, well, it takes about 30 seconds for me to emerge |
| 19:11 |
Warr1024 |
yet it works on an un-emerged player the first time... |
| 19:11 |
sapier1 |
http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=5919 factions mod with mod <-> mod api and reputation support |
| 19:11 |
* smoke_fumus |
added 3d perlin noise to setup temporary blocks |
| 19:11 |
smoke_fumus |
http://screencast.com/t/vCx7alaW1tk looking good |
| 19:12 |
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| 19:12 |
kaeza |
Warr1024, https://github.com/kaeza/minetest-kaeza_misc/blob/master/crosshair_ex/init.lua |
| 19:12 |
Warr1024 |
ok, no delay and it doesn't work, 0.5s delay and it worked the first time I joined... |
| 19:13 |
Warr1024 |
...and didn't work the second time I joined. |
| 19:14 |
Warr1024 |
kaeza: yeah, that's what my code's doing now, except it's statbar and there are a few other features I'm using like offset. |
| 19:14 |
Warr1024 |
minetest.register_on_joinplayer(function(player) minetest.after(0.5, function(self) player:hud_add({ hud_elem_type = "statbar", position = { x = 0.5, y = 1 }, text = "oxygen_icon.png", number = 20, offset = { x = 0, y = -54 }, }) end) end) |
| 19:14 |
Hwkiller |
Hm, I keep getting a segmentation fault in minetest now |
| 19:14 |
Warr1024 |
that code works the first time I join the server. |
| 19:15 |
Warr1024 |
if I leave the server, and rejoin it without restarting the server, no worky. |
| 19:16 |
Warr1024 |
I had been wondering if it's possible that the hud IS being drawn but there's a bug in the new offset feature and it's getting drawn off-screen |
| 19:17 |
Warr1024 |
I guess I can try messing with the numbers... |
| 19:17 |
kaeza |
Warr1024, the final position is calculated on the fly, so cumulative errors are unlikely |
| 19:17 |
Warr1024 |
yeah, that's how I'd do it too |
| 19:18 |
Warr1024 |
without knowing the code well enough, though, I'm more or less shooting in the dark hhere. |
| 19:19 |
Warr1024 |
yep, failed again, with offset removed and x/y at 0.5,0.5 |
| 19:19 |
kaeza |
Warr1024, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/hud.cpp#L173 |
| 19:19 |
ShadowNinja |
Set the delay higher maybe? |
| 19:20 |
Warr1024 |
if it were the delay that were the problem, why does it work the first time I join? |
| 19:20 |
Warr1024 |
I'm gonna try a fresh build of ee1155fe to make sure I'm on latest on both ends of the platform. |
| 19:20 |
smoke_fumus |
ShadowNinja: i know i have no idea because i just took a notice, but can you invoke stand-alone thread for process and signal back after it's complete? |
| 19:22 |
Warr1024 |
can anyone else reproduce this? |
| 19:22 |
ShadowNinja |
smoke_fumus: I don't know much about threading. |
| 19:23 |
Warr1024 |
smoke_fumus: you talking about multithreading in lua, C++...? |
| 19:23 |
smoke_fumus |
easy enough. protect everything you thread in singleton, start coroutine which will calculate whatever you need and then signal back to main thread to use results on next update |
| 19:24 |
smoke_fumus |
there is threading in lua...although it is...well crappy |
| 19:24 |
Warr1024 |
yeah, it's not the kind of threading where you have more than one of them running at a time. |
| 19:24 |
PilzAdam |
minetests Lua env is not able to use threads |
| 19:24 |
ShadowNinja |
s/much/anything/ ;-) |
| 19:24 |
smoke_fumus |
PilzAdam: ah shit |
| 19:24 |
smoke_fumus |
yeah, that could be a problem |
| 19:25 |
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| 19:25 |
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| 19:25 |
Warr1024 |
there are significant technical barriers to being able to run pre-emptive multithreading within a single lua context. |
| 19:25 |
sapier1 |
threading for lua is one of my longterm goals but currently even basic infrastructure is missing |
| 19:25 |
Warr1024 |
you can, however, spin up another context (though this requires C work) or just do your complex background work in a C thread. |
| 19:25 |
kaeza |
smoke_fumus, look at this: https://github.com/kaeza/mapp/blob/threading/init.lua |
| 19:25 |
PilzAdam |
sapier1, sfan5 was looking at it too |
| 19:26 |
sapier1 |
good to know |
| 19:26 |
sapier1 |
I'm working at this for about half a year now ... at least every now and then but in current state of lua api threading is simply impossible |
| 19:26 |
PilzAdam |
well, he looked at it because of Worldedit, but switched to a block query (like WE++) after a while |
| 19:27 |
sapier1 |
primary problem for lua threading is crazy locking style within whole core |
| 19:28 |
Warr1024 |
if you want to do work in a background thread, your best bet is to create a separate, completely independent lua context, and serialize everything you need to ship over to it, and back. It's only possibly worthwhile if the computations are complex enough to offset the cost of serialization. |
| 19:28 |
sapier1 |
this needs to be fixed prior any threading can be implemented |
| 19:28 |
sapier1 |
no it isn't warr1024 |
| 19:28 |
sapier1 |
as you need to implement data transfer mechanisms for this to be of any use |
| 19:29 |
Warr1024 |
yes, hence my mention of it needing to be REALLY worthwhile. |
| 19:29 |
sapier1 |
anything requireing that much cpu power most likely will be better done in c++ either ;-) |
| 19:30 |
kaeza |
smoke_fumus, the code I linked is for a "map" mod generated on the fly. The main problem was that it blocked the server whenever a player tried to look at the map |
| 19:30 |
Warr1024 |
right, it just depends on how accessible you want to make that as a general convention.. |
| 19:30 |
kaeza |
so I implemented it using Lua coroutines, updating a section of the "map" at every step |
| 19:30 |
sapier1 |
currently most mod latency is introduced by mods running up and down lua <-> c++ way to often |
| 19:31 |
smoke_fumus |
kaeza: what do you mean by 'look' |
| 19:31 |
sapier1 |
there's only a big env lock once anyone accesses map all others are locked out until that one finishes |
| 19:31 |
Warr1024 |
sapier1: if lua/C++ intercomm is slow, I'll have to keep that in mind then. |
| 19:31 |
sapier1 |
this is the real problem |
| 19:31 |
sapier1 |
especially lua <-> map intercom is slow |
| 19:32 |
kaeza |
smoke_fumus, it's a "map", as in, a piece of paper showing the geeneral terrain, not a "minetest map" |
| 19:32 |
kaeza |
whenever a player used the "map" tool, the server got stuck until it finished generating the image |
| 19:33 |
Warr1024 |
you could build some sort of external process to poll the map and build pre-computed images... |
| 19:33 |
sapier1 |
I guess this is because of map tool did fetch information from minetest map ... a very very slow path in core |
| 19:33 |
kaeza |
sapier1, in part, yes |
| 19:33 |
kaeza |
and because it needs to generate the formspec |
| 19:34 |
sapier1 |
yes but that process needs to handle map changes gratefully and not crash if data is modified while its working with it |
| 19:34 |
smoke_fumus |
kaeza: so technically mod which shows flatmap as in topview overview |
| 19:34 |
sapier1 |
if that process locks the map too it's of no use |
| 19:34 |
sapier1 |
whats so slow in generating a formspec? |
| 19:34 |
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| 19:34 |
smoke_fumus |
okay. first. it never should be serverside. |
| 19:34 |
kaeza |
sapier1, it only caches the node names; it does not block anything |
| 19:35 |
smoke_fumus |
you should pass it to client |
| 19:35 |
kaeza |
smoke_fumus, +1 |
| 19:35 |
Jordach |
anyways |
| 19:35 |
sapier1 |
lua is alway running within map lock |
| 19:35 |
Jordach |
i might have found a soloution to the player skin system |
| 19:35 |
[ungali] |
are there binary packages of 0.4.6 for debian? |
| 19:35 |
sapier1 |
at least in current implementation |
| 19:35 |
smoke_fumus |
its like getting server to calculate all damn geometry to send it to client |
| 19:35 |
smoke_fumus |
I DARE YOU it will suck |
| 19:35 |
kaeza |
sapier1, it updates (or rather caches) a section in one pass, then yields back to the game |
| 19:35 |
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| 19:36 |
Mati^1 |
re |
| 19:36 |
sapier1 |
and how long does processing of this section require? |
| 19:36 |
smoke_fumus |
client looks at map - tell server that map item there was activated, then get client allowance to proceed to look at tops of map |
| 19:36 |
kaeza |
and so on and so on until the entire requested area is cached, then the formspec is built and shown to the player |
| 19:36 |
smoke_fumus |
client will gen it |
| 19:36 |
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| 19:36 |
kaeza |
sapier1, on averave 5 secs |
| 19:36 |
sapier1 |
LOL |
| 19:36 |
kaeza |
average* |
| 19:37 |
Warr10241 |
btw, MT will run on an atom n450, but it also seems to occasionally make the GPU melt... |
| 19:37 |
sapier1 |
and I was worried about pathfinding took 200ms in some cases |
| 19:37 |
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| 19:37 |
Warr1024 |
ok, so I uppped the HUD delay to 30s, and still same results. |
| 19:37 |
Calinou |
works fine for me on a N455, Warr1024, although slow |
| 19:37 |
kaeza |
sapier1, it's not my code, I just made it a bit better |
| 19:38 |
kaeza |
blame 4aiman |
| 19:38 |
kaeza |
;) |
| 19:38 |
sapier1 |
if you lock lua for 5 seconds you most likely will cause lot of trouble |
| 19:38 |
Warr1024 |
Calinou: yeah, it's probably an issue with my GPU drivers or something... |
| 19:38 |
Calinou |
it's still infinitely better to play on a desktop :P |
| 19:38 |
Calinou |
xubuntu 12.10 64 bit + intel drivers |
| 19:38 |
sapier1 |
collision handling will drop data if dtime is > 2s |
| 19:38 |
kaeza |
<kaeza> sapier1, it updates (or rather caches) a section in one pass, then yields back to the game |
| 19:38 |
kaeza |
each pass caches one map "line" |
| 19:38 |
sapier1 |
yes and you said a section requires 5s? |
| 19:39 |
kaeza |
nope |
| 19:39 |
kaeza |
the full process takes 5 secs |
| 19:39 |
sapier1 |
ok thats something completely different |
| 19:39 |
Warr1024 |
so I guess this HUD thing is a bug? I'm kind of surprised it wasn't caught before |
| 19:39 |
kaeza |
from the user using the tool to the map displaying |
| 19:41 |
sapier1 |
I'm already planing support for asynchronous lua operations ... this is almost same as warr1024 suggested with threading |
| 19:41 |
sapier1 |
but as I told this requires some locking cleanup |
| 19:42 |
Calinou |
finally an open source prorgrammer cares about multithreading! |
| 19:42 |
Calinou |
* AMD spams "alleluiah" |
| 19:43 |
sapier1 |
lol I talking about multithreading for years but it's almost as impossible to add this as adding security features ;-P |
| 19:44 |
kaeza |
sapier1, adding multithreading would be great |
| 19:44 |
Calinou |
better add multithreading than security features |
| 19:44 |
Calinou |
life is too short to care about security :P |
| 19:44 |
celeron55 |
Warr1024: it seems nobody can tell if it's a bug or not |
| 19:44 |
kaeza |
but for now, we gotta do with what we have :) |
| 19:44 |
Warr1024 |
ok, well, I'm going to test one more time using kaeza's mod, which I am assured works correctly |
| 19:45 |
Warr1024 |
if I can reproduce it, I'll file an issue in github... |
| 19:45 |
sapier1 |
lol maybe your life is so short BECAUSE you don't care about security ;-P |
| 19:45 |
celeron55 |
Warr1024: take kaeza's mod and replace your stuff into it until it doesn't work |
| 19:45 |
celeron55 |
(assuming it works initially) |
| 19:45 |
kaeza |
it does :) |
| 19:45 |
Calinou |
sapier1, actually, minetest is a game |
| 19:46 |
sapier1 |
no I won't start this discussion again we all know there wont be any result |
| 19:47 |
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| 19:47 |
smoke_fumus |
threads is a great way to enhance perfomance |
| 19:47 |
smoke_fumus |
just make sure its pid-less threads xD |
| 19:47 |
sapier1 |
only if you do correct locking |
| 19:47 |
smoke_fumus |
true true |
| 19:47 |
Warr1024 |
and if you have more than 1 core |
| 19:47 |
smoke_fumus |
unprotected threads are general pain |
| 19:48 |
sapier1 |
but only way to gain full performance |
| 19:48 |
smoke_fumus |
is to use 64 bit |
| 19:48 |
smoke_fumus |
:D |
| 19:48 |
Warr1024 |
celeron55: reproduced it without modifying kaeza's code |
| 19:48 |
Calinou |
how about 128 bit |
| 19:48 |
Warr1024 |
I wouldn't be surprised if much of the mod content out there is only tested rigorously in single-player, in which case you get a fresh server each time |
| 19:48 |
smoke_fumus |
Calinou: do you have intel/amd processors with 128bit archetecture? |
| 19:48 |
smoke_fumus |
i don't think you do |
| 19:49 |
kaeza |
Warr1024, just tested my mod. restarted 4 times in a row and no problems |
| 19:49 |
Warr1024 |
kaeza: restarted what? |
| 19:49 |
sapier1 |
no is using non synchronized threads ... but this requires a little bit more than just writing some "working" code down |
| 19:49 |
Calinou |
steamroller will be 128 bit, you didn't know? |
| 19:49 |
smoke_fumus |
fun fact but dreamcast had 128bit |
| 19:49 |
smoke_fumus |
wait.. |
| 19:49 |
Calinou |
so that AMD will sell a lot of CPUs again, just like they did when they introduced 64 bit |
| 19:49 |
Calinou |
</sarcasm> |
| 19:49 |
kaeza |
Warr1024, went back to main menu and started game again.... wasn't this the problem? |
| 19:49 |
Jordach |
http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=89193#p89193 |
| 19:50 |
Warr1024 |
kaeza: did you leave the server running, or were you in single player? |
| 19:50 |
smoke_fumus |
uh. hm. i am a bit wrong - dreamcast had 128-bit graphics core meaning that inside of gl call you could've had just one bigass mesh per level |
| 19:50 |
smoke_fumus |
to example |
| 19:51 |
smoke_fumus |
which is interesting way of optimizing |
| 19:52 |
kaeza |
Warr1024, derp |
| 19:52 |
kaeza |
indeed reproducible |
| 19:52 |
Warr1024 |
Filed as issue 711 (don't I get a free slurpie with that?) |
| 19:53 |
smoke_fumus |
Warr1024: no but you do get nagged respond like 'goddamn, another issue' |
| 19:53 |
Warr1024 |
yeah, sorry about that :-) |
| 19:53 |
smoke_fumus |
xD |
| 19:54 |
Warr1024 |
Normally I prefer to include code to fix the bugs that I file, but I don't know the code well enough (yet) |
| 19:54 |
* ShadowBot |
wakes up |
| 19:54 |
Calinou |
Warr1024, I got issue 666 :P https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/666 |
| 19:54 |
|
MinetestBot joined #minetest |
| 19:54 |
* ShadowBot |
sleeps |
| 19:55 |
kaeza |
Calinou is satanic :O |
| 19:55 |
sfan5 |
,,(op MinetestBot) |
| 19:55 |
kaeza |
...and a griefer :P |
| 19:55 |
khonkhortisan |
dr. who reference http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0jftqRLG5c&t=1m10s |
| 19:55 |
smoke_fumus |
Calinou: ??? you're on the highwaaaaay to hell~~~~ ??? |
| 19:55 |
smoke_fumus |
:D |
| 19:55 |
Calinou |
no u |
| 19:56 |
smoke_fumus |
gladly. at least succubs not that crazy as typical 21 old girls |
| 19:56 |
* smoke_fumus |
trollface |
| 19:56 |
sfan5 |
!title |
| 19:56 |
MinetestBot |
TypeError: f_title() takes exactly 4 arguments (2 given) (file "/home/user/mtbot/bot.py", line 214, in call) |
| 19:56 |
|
sapier1 left #minetest |
| 19:56 |
|
sdzen joined #minetest |
| 19:57 |
smoke_fumus |
hey, i found a note symbol. ddd nana-nana-nana-nana-nana-nana-nana-nana BATMAN! ddd |
| 19:57 |
Calinou |
tripod, obit smoke_fumus please |
| 19:57 |
|
Hwkiller left #minetest |
| 19:57 |
Calinou |
he's your clone :> |
| 19:57 |
smoke_fumus |
xD |
| 19:58 |
smoke_fumus |
speaking of adam west's batman. http://z0r.de/5036 |
| 19:58 |
Issa |
i m a singlpayer on minetest how cheat |
| 19:58 |
Issa |
? |
| 19:58 |
Calinou |
/grant singleplayer all |
| 19:59 |
celeron55 |
Warr1024: well, good thing somebody found the issue then... now hope that somebody manages to fix it in reasonable time :P |
| 19:59 |
smoke_fumus |
Issa: cheat singleplayer to, should you, google lookup |
| 20:00 |
smoke_fumus |
WORD ORDER |
| 20:00 |
smoke_fumus |
LEARN IT xD |
| 20:00 |
Warr1024 |
is anyone specific responsible for fixing this sort of stuff? |
| 20:00 |
kaeza |
smoke_fumus, he's Yoda |
| 20:00 |
celeron55 |
generally those who have added a feature are responsible for fixing it |
| 20:00 |
smoke_fumus |
kaeza: yoda didn't skipped words |
| 20:00 |
Warr1024 |
ah |
| 20:00 |
Issa |
smoke_fumus, im on the wiki, and no information about this on it |
| 20:00 |
smoke_fumus |
misplaced yes, skipped no |
| 20:01 |
Issa |
smoke_fumus, http://wiki.minetest.com/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=cheating&go=Go |
| 20:01 |
smoke_fumus |
NO CHEAT FOR YOU |
| 20:01 |
smoke_fumus |
PLAY FAIR |
| 20:01 |
celeron55 |
Warr1024: this one was contributed by someone who doesn't hang around here otherwise though, and then hmmmm reworked it and kaeza extended it so i don't know who to blame 8) |
| 20:01 |
smoke_fumus |
this is short answer. long answer is that someone should add inventory picker mod for ssp |
| 20:01 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: The commacomma() notation is for use in sentances, you can use !cmd or ShadowBot: cmd also. |
| 20:02 |
sfan5 |
ShadowNinja: ok |
| 20:02 |
PilzAdam |
celeron55, always blame hmmmm |
| 20:02 |
Warr1024 |
I noticed that the ID assigned server-side to hud elements on reconnect are different for different connections, even though I thought players were disposed each time... |
| 20:02 |
smoke_fumus |
wait...wait wait wait wait. |
| 20:02 |
smoke_fumus |
you control hud elements...serverside? |
| 20:02 |
smoke_fumus |
wat? |
| 20:02 |
Warr1024 |
smoke_fumus: you can |
| 20:02 |
smoke_fumus |
why? |
| 20:02 |
Warr1024 |
it don't work, but you can :-) |
| 20:02 |
smoke_fumus |
you shouldn't |
| 20:02 |
smoke_fumus |
this is awful |
| 20:02 |
Warr1024 |
yes you should |
| 20:03 |
smoke_fumus |
no you shouldn't |
| 20:03 |
celeron55 |
*additional hud elements |
| 20:03 |
smoke_fumus |
gui == clientside |
| 20:03 |
Warr1024 |
how else can I add gauges? |
| 20:03 |
kaeza |
celeron55, that looks like an issue in the HUD core (i.e. the original version) |
| 20:03 |
smoke_fumus |
this looks more like crutch rather than gauge |
| 20:03 |
|
sapier joined #minetest |
| 20:04 |
* ShadowBot |
wakes up |
| 20:04 |
kaeza |
or maybe hmmmm's rework, dunno |
| 20:04 |
|
MinetestBot joined #minetest |
| 20:04 |
* ShadowBot |
sleeps |
| 20:04 |
sfan5 |
!op MinetestBot |
| 20:04 |
Warr1024 |
don't know what you mean, smoke_fumus. I want to add stamina to my mod, and need some way to let the player see it while moving around. |
| 20:04 |
sfan5 |
ShadowBot: op MinetestBot |
| 20:04 |
kaeza |
I only touched the rendering parts |
| 20:04 |
sfan5 |
ShadowNinja: it somehow doesn't seem to work |
| 20:04 |
smoke_fumus |
Warr1024: control variable of stamina. but let clientside to work with hud |
| 20:04 |
celeron55 |
Warr1024: smoke_fumus is talking on a design level |
| 20:04 |
Warr1024 |
any chance that the player hud array isn't being initialized or disposed of properly? |
| 20:05 |
sfan5 |
http://minetest.net/ |
| 20:05 |
Warr1024 |
smoke_fumus: there IS no client-side. |
| 20:05 |
sfan5 |
!title |
| 20:05 |
MinetestBot |
NameError: global name 'self' is not defined (file "/home/user/mtbot/modules/title.py", line 22, in f_title) |
| 20:05 |
smoke_fumus |
Warr1024: wat? |
| 20:05 |
sfan5 |
wat? |
| 20:05 |
smoke_fumus |
WAAAAT? |
| 20:05 |
kaeza |
wut |
| 20:05 |
smoke_fumus |
what did you smoked? |
| 20:05 |
Warr1024 |
all my mod code runs server-side. |
| 20:05 |
Jordach |
weed. my choice. |
| 20:05 |
celeron55 |
minetest doesn't run any mod code on the client side |
| 20:05 |
smoke_fumus |
Warr1024: you are a bad, BAD MAN |
| 20:05 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: You need to have the owner capability to bypass lobotomies it seems. |
| 20:05 |
smoke_fumus |
and you should be ASHAMED of YOURSELF |
| 20:05 |
Warr1024 |
ha |
| 20:05 |
kaeza |
smoke_fumus, double past tense |
| 20:05 |
kaeza |
did you smoked? <--- wut |
| 20:06 |
Issa |
kaeza, i think he smole |
| 20:06 |
Issa |
:/ |
| 20:06 |
Calinou |
smole, lol |
| 20:06 |
smoke_fumus |
lol |
| 20:06 |
Calinou |
smoke_fumus, go add client side modding |
| 20:06 |
Warr1024 |
if I add a variable server-side and want the client to have some way to display it, I either need to push instructions to add a HUD to the client, or I need to push code to do the same. |
| 20:06 |
smoke_fumus |
Calinou: this feature should be natively in the game |
| 20:06 |
smoke_fumus |
if it isn't there - somebody forgot to do his homework |
| 20:06 |
Warr1024 |
s/feature/flaw |
| 20:07 |
Calinou |
do it then |
| 20:07 |
smoke_fumus |
i'm not minetest developer |
| 20:07 |
Calinou |
also add nouveau reclocking while you're at it, since you seem to be so good at programming :P |
| 20:07 |
smoke_fumus |
nor core developer, neither side developer |
| 20:07 |
Warr1024 |
keeping all the modding stuff server-side was a very nice design. |
| 20:07 |
smoke_fumus |
BULL! |
| 20:07 |
kaeza |
smoke_fumus, since stamina or otherwise would be calc'ed server-side, you'd need to transmit the value over network anyway |
| 20:07 |
smoke_fumus |
all logics yes |
| 20:07 |
smoke_fumus |
all visuals - BULL |
| 20:07 |
celeron55 |
if you don't develop, then you can't blame anyone; that's the rule here |
| 20:07 |
Issa |
well |
| 20:07 |
Warr1024 |
it means that you can connect to any server without needing to download the exact matching set of corresponding client mods to whatever is running on the server. |
| 20:08 |
Issa |
good night |
| 20:08 |
sapier |
still some sort of limited client side modding might be interesting too |
| 20:08 |
Warr1024 |
much nicer than the way it was over on MC. |
| 20:08 |
* ShadowBot |
wakes up |
| 20:08 |
celeron55 |
sapier: for some simple responsive effects, yes |
| 20:08 |
sapier |
not as powerfull as server side modding |
| 20:08 |
smoke_fumus |
Warr1024: or you can do it spoutcraft way with server giving client http link on client sides of its mods |
| 20:08 |
Warr1024 |
allowing clients to be modded = nice. requiring existing mods be split between server and client = bull. |
| 20:08 |
|
MinetestBot joined #minetest |
| 20:08 |
* ShadowBot |
sleeps |
| 20:08 |
smoke_fumus |
which is way nicer |
| 20:08 |
kaeza |
smoke_fumus, also, the work needed to prevent cheating with client-side mods would be enormous |
| 20:08 |
sfan5 |
http://minetest.net/ |
| 20:08 |
sfan5 |
!title |
| 20:08 |
MinetestBot |
NameError: global name 'self' is not defined (file "/home/user/mtbot/modules/title.py", line 90, in f_title) |
| 20:08 |
sfan5 |
damnit |
| 20:08 |
smoke_fumus |
kaeza: hur hur hur no. easy. |
| 20:08 |
Jordach |
lololololol |
| 20:08 |
sapier |
e.g some small on_punch actions that predict server side changes |
| 20:08 |
Calinou |
!title or GTFO |
| 20:08 |
MinetestBot |
Calinou: Can't connect to http://or GTFO |
| 20:08 |
PilzAdam |
sfan5, I consider this spam |
| 20:09 |
smoke_fumus |
kaeza: you detach backend of mod from frontend. you move all visuals to frontend, but leave all logicwork to backend. backend runs on server. frontend runs on client |
| 20:09 |
kaeza |
smoke_fumus, then code it 8) |
| 20:09 |
smoke_fumus |
done. |
| 20:09 |
smoke_fumus |
but you also need to code in enviroment. |
| 20:10 |
smoke_fumus |
kaeza: mate this is common sense programming |
| 20:10 |
Warr1024 |
smoke_fumus: ick; not having to have a separate front-end and back-end side to mods was one of the things that attracted me to minetest in the first place. |
| 20:10 |
Calinou |
how would you implement the client side API, smoke_fumus? |
| 20:10 |
Calinou |
first, you need to create some kind of conventions |
| 20:10 |
kaeza |
smoke_fumus, less chat, more code |
| 20:10 |
Calinou |
then add client-server linking (else it's not really useful) |
| 20:11 |
sapier |
I was more thinking about sever telling client what to execute |
| 20:11 |
khonkhortisan |
and server→client installing |
| 20:11 |
smoke_fumus |
Calinou: easy enough. give it Widget namespace and desired calls which can be called through it + ability to read variables from server on demand but use dynamically generated magicNumber to prevent ddos |
| 20:11 |
celeron55 |
smoke_fumus: where do you think the visuals are, if not in the frontend? what you see on the screen is drawn by the client after all |
| 20:11 |
sapier |
thus mod is not installed on client but still on server and transfered on connect ... but this is a very dangerous action |
| 20:11 |
smoke_fumus |
so |
| 20:11 |
Warr1024 |
ok, is it just me, or is the HUD not being initialized in the Player.cpp constructor... but shouldn't it be...? |
| 20:11 |
kaeza |
> read variables from server on demand |
| 20:12 |
kaeza |
^ latency? |
| 20:12 |
celeron55 |
sapier: lua can be sandboxed for such use, it's not an issue |
| 20:12 |
smoke_fumus |
kaeza: with magic number which generated each keyframe |
| 20:12 |
smoke_fumus |
so client will not be able to custom-hack |
| 20:12 |
kaeza |
lol |
| 20:12 |
smoke_fumus |
+ check md5 of mod file |
| 20:12 |
smoke_fumus |
on connection |
| 20:12 |
smoke_fumus |
so if any changes - drop the fucker |
| 20:12 |
sapier |
yes there are actions to make it safe but they need to be implemented |
| 20:13 |
kaeza |
smoke_fumus, again, less chat, more code |
| 20:13 |
smoke_fumus |
kaeza: well do it |
| 20:13 |
sapier |
implementing it same way current server side implementation is done would be crazy |
| 20:13 |
celeron55 |
sapier: do you seriously think we would pass in client-side lua without proper sandboxing? |
| 20:13 |
smoke_fumus |
i already explained how to |
| 20:13 |
celeron55 |
sapier: no we would not |
| 20:13 |
Warr1024 |
huh? |
| 20:13 |
Warr1024 |
are you talking about problems with servers pushing malicious code to the client, or the client trying to cheat with a modded interface? |
| 20:13 |
Warr1024 |
if the latter, they already can cheat, and there's literally nothing you can do abou tit. |
| 20:13 |
sfan5 |
http://minetest.net/ |
| 20:13 |
sfan5 |
!title |
| 20:13 |
MinetestBot |
sfan5: Minetest |
| 20:13 |
sapier |
celeron55 I'd wish there were more ppl having this attitude ;-) |
| 20:13 |
celeron55 |
sapier: if you do, i take that as an insult |
| 20:14 |
smoke_fumus |
Warr1024: Durr. no. you can do alot about it. MD5 checksum checking on connection to example |
| 20:14 |
sapier |
I know you're concerned about security too celeron |
| 20:15 |
celeron55 |
smoke_fumus: we do not, will not, and cannot use validation of client-side code |
| 20:15 |
smoke_fumus |
yes you can, you must and you will |
| 20:15 |
celeron55 |
smoke_fumus: only those who distribute their clients as proprietary binary blobs can attempt such |
| 20:15 |
smoke_fumus |
it is not about general client we talk about |
| 20:15 |
sfan5 |
before anybody does anything? why MD5? its insecure |
| 20:15 |
smoke_fumus |
but about its files |
| 20:15 |
sapier |
war1024 cheating is only a "minor" issue at least I'm concerned about server pushing malicious code |
| 20:15 |
smoke_fumus |
and mods |
| 20:15 |
smoke_fumus |
sfan5: sha256 then |
| 20:15 |
Warr1024 |
MD5 to check what? |
| 20:15 |
Warr1024 |
you mean to check the client binaries? |
| 20:15 |
Warr1024 |
aside from breaking portability, all that would do is convince hackers they have to send a fake MD5 anyway. |
| 20:16 |
Warr1024 |
no, actually proprietary binary blobs are also vulnerable |
| 20:16 |
smoke_fumus |
Warr1024: to check lua modfiles |
| 20:16 |
celeron55 |
smoke_fumus: so? the user can just modify the client's code to tell the server it's using what the server wants it to use, while it uses something else |
| 20:16 |
celeron55 |
you can't limit the client by telling it what it should limit |
| 20:16 |
Calinou |
lol, checking client binaries, overrated thing noone does today :P |
| 20:16 |
smoke_fumus |
well. you built it insecure like that |
| 20:16 |
smoke_fumus |
not me |
| 20:16 |
Warr1024 |
built what? the end-user's computer? |
| 20:17 |
smoke_fumus |
server-client code |
| 20:17 |
Warr1024 |
that's the issue here: the client runs entirely on a computer that's outside of the control of minetest devs |
| 20:17 |
celeron55 |
minetest's server-client operation is currently quite uncheatable for exactly the reason that mods run on the server |
| 20:17 |
thexyz |
wallhack |
| 20:17 |
smoke_fumus |
ugh. it is just about how do you interact through network |
| 20:17 |
thexyz |
flying, speedhack |
| 20:17 |
sapier |
there are some things that can be done to improove minetest security ... I've allready created a proove of concept changeset |
| 20:17 |
Warr1024 |
flying and speedhack could be dealt with server-side |
| 20:18 |
celeron55 |
thexyz: that isn't checked, but could be if someone cares enough to do it |
| 20:18 |
Warr1024 |
wallhack is not protectable unless you do raytracing server-side, god forbid. |
| 20:18 |
celeron55 |
thexyz: it's not technically impossible, which matters |
| 20:18 |
Calinou |
they are already dealt with |
| 20:18 |
sapier |
still atm I prefere my lua api fixes (way to multithreading) to be included first ;-) |
| 20:18 |
Calinou |
but with lag there are lots of false positives :P |
| 20:18 |
Calinou |
flying, not |
| 20:18 |
Calinou |
but speedhack, yes |
| 20:18 |
thexyz |
some people from my server decided to use cheatengine to "speed up" minetest |
| 20:18 |
Calinou |
we still lack noclip protection though (idea: set damage to 20/second in normal nodes that have full block collision) |
| 20:19 |
Calinou |
thexyz, how did they go through the speedhack protection? |
| 20:19 |
sapier |
guys there are so much bugs in minetest that could be used to cheat is it really of any use to discuss about client verification? |
| 20:19 |
Calinou |
glitch ladders :D |
| 20:20 |
celeron55 |
thexyz: how did that end up :P |
| 20:20 |
thexyz |
Calinou: no idea |
| 20:21 |
|
kaeza1 joined #minetest |
| 20:24 |
kaeza |
smoke_fumus, rule #1 of the internet: never trust the client |
| 20:24 |
kaeza |
smoke_fumus, rule #-1 of the internet: rules and numbers are arbitrary |
| 20:25 |
Calinou |
actually, you should trust the client |
| 20:25 |
Calinou |
else lag will be obvious |
| 20:25 |
Calinou |
this is why playing quake 1 based games with 100+ ping sucks |
| 20:25 |
Warr1024 |
rule #0: start numbering at zero, dammit. |
| 20:25 |
tripod |
Calinou: who dare waketh me |
| 20:25 |
Calinou |
while it's fine to play quake 3 based games with 100+ ping |
| 20:25 |
Calinou |
me |
| 20:25 |
khonkhortisan |
rule #1b you're always going to be off by one |
| 20:25 |
Calinou |
because Q3 trusts the client more, and the prediction was built in too |
| 20:26 |
Calinou |
but cube 2 is even better at this |
| 20:26 |
smoke_fumus |
Warr1024: that's networking coding rules |
| 20:26 |
Calinou |
and of course, minecraft/minetest |
| 20:26 |
smoke_fumus |
not internet rules |
| 20:26 |
Calinou |
lag should never be obvious |
| 20:26 |
Calinou |
--c-fifty-five |
| 20:26 |
PilzAdam |
*see-fifty-five |
| 20:27 |
Calinou |
there is |
| 20:27 |
Calinou |
small, but I can notice it |
| 20:31 |
|
cisoun joined #minetest |
| 20:33 |
|
kaeza1 joined #minetest |
| 20:35 |
|
iqualfragile1 joined #minetest |
| 20:39 |
kaeza1 |
https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7439435264/h45FA898B/ |
| 20:41 |
kaeza |
the developers of minetest, https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7439253760/hC9BFBD1F/ |
| 20:42 |
PilzAdam |
is that eclipse? |
| 20:43 |
smoke_fumus |
kaeza: there is third pic. 'my code works only 1 time out of 5. i have no idea why' and 'my code has a fatal error. gdb says 'segfault'' |
| 20:43 |
smoke_fumus |
:D |
| 20:43 |
sapier |
seams to be eclipse yes |
| 20:43 |
smoke_fumus |
yes that is eclipse |
| 20:43 |
Warr1024 |
fuck, found a fix for bug 711 |
| 20:43 |
PilzAdam |
*seems |
| 20:44 |
Warr1024 |
apparently the player objects are being reused between connections |
| 20:44 |
sapier |
argh wrong again ... seems seems seems ... :-) |
| 20:44 |
Warr1024 |
calling player->hud.clear() before the scriptapi line in emergePlayer in server.cpp seems to fix it. |
| 20:48 |
celeron55 |
Warr1024: this is very useful info in fixing of the bug |
| 20:48 |
Warr1024 |
I was actually about to amend a diff to my issue report :-) |
| 20:49 |
smoke_fumus |
also guys. speaking of security and threading in opensource. there is best example of opensource up to date - springrts engine |
| 20:49 |
smoke_fumus |
not only it is secure as 9 circles of hell, and robust as turboturd but also extremely powerful up to AAA code grade |
| 20:50 |
Warr1024 |
I posted a diff |
| 20:50 |
smoke_fumus |
+ it uses lua for scripting |
| 20:50 |
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| 20:50 |
Warr1024 |
one of these days I'll setup a proper fork from which I can push back mergereqs... |
| 20:52 |
celeron55 |
smoke_fumus: does spring-rts use the traditional lockstep model? |
| 20:52 |
Warr1024 |
anyway, that patch seems to make the problem go away, but it seems like there's a larger issue of player objects being reused (if a player disconnects, the object is kept for when they rejoin) with no reinitialization that I could see. |
| 20:52 |
smoke_fumus |
i..have...urm..actually i have no clue |
| 20:53 |
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| 20:54 |
smoke_fumus |
but i can tell you that is supports up to 64000 units on battlefield simultaneously (although it is engine restriction - actual restriction depends on your cpu. mine handles ~8000) |
| 20:55 |
smoke_fumus |
+ it has most interesting rts feature so far - dynamic client reconnection and specator reconnection (it not sending current frame but rather frames from 0 up to current on enhanced speed to let client catchup) |
| 20:55 |
celeron55 |
the lockstep is something only strategy games can use because it requires a constant delay of a few RTTs to all player input, and in turn allows the network protocol to consist solely of player input while each peer runs the exact same simulation |
| 20:55 |
smoke_fumus |
*specator connection on the go |
| 20:55 |
smoke_fumus |
oh...yes then i believe it does |
| 20:56 |
smoke_fumus |
although you will need to ask core devs about it |
| 20:56 |
celeron55 |
well based on the characteristics yoy said, it's somewhat obvious |
| 20:56 |
celeron55 |
you* |
| 20:56 |
smoke_fumus |
besides. it is total annihilation reverse-enginered port with enhanced features |
| 20:56 |
celeron55 |
also that dynamic client reconnection isn't particularly special |
| 20:56 |
celeron55 |
OpenTTD has had it for a long time |
| 20:57 |
celeron55 |
(it also uses lockstep AFAIK) |
| 20:57 |
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| 20:57 |
smoke_fumus |
celeron55: not when you has 8000 units on battlefield with at least 25 variables each |
| 20:58 |
smoke_fumus |
not reconnection but also raw connection. you can join in middle of battle and after catching up host can pass command of 1 player to you |
| 20:58 |
smoke_fumus |
drop-in, drop-out gameplay. in rts. |
| 20:58 |
smoke_fumus |
i know openttd has it |
| 20:58 |
smoke_fumus |
but its openttd |
| 20:58 |
smoke_fumus |
it has way lesser units |
| 20:58 |
celeron55 |
well, openttd is RTS |
| 20:59 |
smoke_fumus |
its a matter scale |
| 20:59 |
smoke_fumus |
openttd has properties detached from graphics as far as i remember. and properties structs there are fairly small |
| 21:00 |
smoke_fumus |
in springrts they are somewhat more massive |
| 21:01 |
celeron55 |
but anyway, what's the point? |
| 21:01 |
smoke_fumus |
point is - lookup its code and learn about client-server mods through lua and security of it in general |
| 21:02 |
celeron55 |
we can't do the same thing in MT |
| 21:02 |
celeron55 |
as i said, it only works for strategy games where input can always be delayed for a few hundred milliseconds |
| 21:02 |
NakedFury |
how weird that celeron is still here |
| 21:02 |
sapier |
our primary problem isn't we don't know how to do it but how to keep compatibility ;-) |
| 21:03 |
smoke_fumus |
if it will be up to general changes - break the fucking compatability to smitherines if it means you can create something more usable out of core |
| 21:03 |
celeron55 |
i for sure know how to do such but it isn't applicable at all here |
| 21:03 |
celeron55 |
sapier is talking straight-up bullshit and i don't know why |
| 21:03 |
smoke_fumus |
xD |
| 21:03 |
smoke_fumus |
i figured that much |
| 21:04 |
smoke_fumus |
celeron55: that gave me a good laugh. thanks. |
| 21:05 |
sapier |
what I was trying to tell is adding security isn't that complicated but adding it in a way that community accepts it is difficult |
| 21:05 |
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| 21:06 |
NakedFury |
add it. if they dont want it then they can take the highway |
| 21:06 |
celeron55 |
well that's an another issue and not really even an issue in the first place |
| 21:06 |
NakedFury |
my way or the highway |
| 21:06 |
sapier |
but thats an annoying issue ;-) at least to me :-) |
| 21:07 |
celeron55 |
afaik you already have the code done? where was it left the last time? |
| 21:07 |
celeron55 |
was it related to the scriptapi rework or something |
| 21:08 |
sapier |
no I haven't added it to scriptapi rework in order to get better chances the scriptapi work is merged |
| 21:09 |
celeron55 |
speaking of which, could you please tell sometime on #-dev if you wish to have an api code freeze for that, or do you currently have an up-to-date pull request? |
| 21:09 |
sapier |
it's not a big deal to be added there either cleaned up scriptapi architecture is way more compatible to security fixes |
| 21:09 |
sapier |
I'll recheck it's been up to date 2 weeks ago when I rebased it to master |
| 21:10 |
sapier |
and yes if there's a chance of freez I'll take it |
| 21:10 |
celeron55 |
it's not about chance |
| 21:10 |
celeron55 |
it's about you clearly telling to everyone when it starts and stops |
| 21:10 |
celeron55 |
last time it wasn't clear enough, if there even was a time |
| 21:11 |
sapier |
ok if this is my decision I'd prefere freeze till saturday 11pm gmt to rebase and prepare for merge |
| 21:13 |
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| 21:13 |
celeron55 |
add scriptapi to that and shout it on #-dev |
| 21:14 |
NakedFury |
with what you learned when making minetest, if you could go back and start it over. What would you change? |
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| 21:15 |
celeron55 |
NakedFury: maybe approximately everything; altough that doesn't imply anything better |
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| 21:16 |
PilzAdam |
would you even start again? |
| 21:17 |
celeron55 |
that's impossible to judge; in this reality MT exists and it makes it worthless to start anew |
| 21:18 |
smoke_fumus |
celeron55: ok. now question about mt. do you reuse verticles? i mean to example you have your chunk and there are planes which use simmiliar uv coordinates of atlas. do you merge their verticles together? |
| 21:19 |
smoke_fumus |
*vertices |
| 21:20 |
smoke_fumus |
FFFF~ i always forget how to type this word |
| 21:20 |
celeron55 |
texture atlas was discarded as partically useless a while ago - also MT's lighting requires most vertices to remain in any case |
| 21:21 |
smoke_fumus |
so no merging....this seems....unwise for lack of better term |
| 21:22 |
khonkhortisan |
keep changing it until the lighting isn't wrong |
| 21:22 |
celeron55 |
you're getting stuck in all kinds of things that are really minor |
| 21:22 |
Warr1024 |
what would inefficient vertex use even cause? poor FPS due to GPU bottleneck? I don't have any such problem even on my Atom n450 with integrated graphics... |
| 21:23 |
Warr1024 |
Unless I'm swarmed by CAO's, I get the feeling most of my CPU power goes to chunk receive and decode, which is probably my worst bottleneck. |
| 21:24 |
celeron55 |
but of course again if you wish to implement such, i don't think anyone would complain 8) |
| 21:24 |
celeron55 |
Warr1024: inefficient vertice use will, well, overally degrade rendering performance |
| 21:25 |
celeron55 |
probably quite linearly for certain parts of rendering |
| 21:25 |
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| 21:25 |
celeron55 |
(wich may or may not mean anything in the full rendering cycle, depending on everything) |
| 21:26 |
Warr1024 |
"depending on everything" <- not a comforting concept :-) |
| 21:26 |
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| 21:26 |
celeron55 |
well that's what you get on today's complicated hardware, an optimization can either make something faster or do nothing :P |
| 21:26 |
Warr1024 |
or slower, sometimes |
| 21:27 |
celeron55 |
really currently a bigger bottleneck is the mesh generation speed rather than the speed of drawing meshes |
| 21:28 |
Warr1024 |
reminds me of http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=15 |
| 21:28 |
celeron55 |
(depending on in what kind of a situation the player is in the game) |
| 21:28 |
Warr1024 |
celeron55: yes, I can feel the mesh generation bottleneck alright. |
| 21:28 |
Warr1024 |
walking from chunk to chunk gives me a lag spike every so often, no problems standing still. |
| 21:29 |
celeron55 |
on an N450 you'll feel it right in your butt because it's a single-core processor |
| 21:29 |
celeron55 |
it'll directly eat your FPS 8) |
| 21:29 |
Warr1024 |
I gots the hyperthreading now though :-D |
| 21:29 |
celeron55 |
on a dual core you just get more heat as the other core crunches the meshes away |
| 21:30 |
Warr1024 |
(not that HT ever gives predictable performance benefits...) |
| 21:30 |
Warr1024 |
yeah, generating optimized meshes when most of the world is solid stone surrounded on all sides by more solid stone is probably quite tricky. |
| 21:31 |
smoke_fumus |
well, guys on unity3d did that. |
| 21:31 |
smoke_fumus |
i mean reusing vertices is sides quads are near and share same atlas coordinates |
| 21:32 |
smoke_fumus |
*on |
| 21:32 |
smoke_fumus |
*IF |
| 21:32 |
smoke_fumus |
*of quads |
| 21:32 |
celeron55 |
Warr1024: well, considering rotations of nodes and all that, it does get a bit hairy |
| 21:33 |
celeron55 |
smoke_fumus: minetest does a bit of that |
| 21:34 |
smoke_fumus |
heheh. |
| 21:34 |
celeron55 |
smoke_fumus: it just isn't particularly good at it; but i can assure you there are some connected faces like that when you walk around |
| 21:34 |
smoke_fumus |
which basically connected if they share same texture. right? |
| 21:34 |
celeron55 |
especially on flat ground |
| 21:34 |
smoke_fumus |
celeron55: are you on windowS? |
| 21:35 |
celeron55 |
we have zero core developers who use windows |
| 21:35 |
smoke_fumus |
DAMN. |
| 21:35 |
celeron55 |
it's useless for developing |
| 21:35 |
Warr1024 |
what's a windows? |
| 21:35 |
smoke_fumus |
celeron55: not it doesn't. if you use mingw that is |
| 21:35 |
celeron55 |
it can run the end result though so we make builds for it, for whoever uses it |
| 21:36 |
smoke_fumus |
on corebuilding - i agree it is useless |
| 21:36 |
PilzAdam |
smoke_fumus, I can run mingw on Linux too |
| 21:36 |
smoke_fumus |
yeaaa, but i meant windows development |
| 21:36 |
celeron55 |
Warr1024: i hear it's some kind of program code the murricans sell with high price to each other |
| 21:36 |
smoke_fumus |
whenever i'm outside interpreted languages and unity3d i use eclipse ide + mingw on windows |
| 21:36 |
Warr1024 |
celeron55: not true: it's actually a form of tax on new computers. |
| 21:37 |
smoke_fumus |
and i'm not planning moving out untill autodesk and adobe will make 3dsmax and photoshop for linux |
| 21:37 |
smoke_fumus |
until then - hell no |
| 21:37 |
Warr1024 |
3dsmax and photoshop? are those like some kind of windows-world equivalent of blender and gimp? |
| 21:38 |
iqualfragile1 |
yep |
| 21:38 |
smoke_fumus |
blender and gimp are mediocre lackluster clones of 3dsmax and photoshop |
| 21:38 |
smoke_fumus |
i take it back |
| 21:38 |
smoke_fumus |
blender is shitty clone of maya |
| 21:38 |
iqualfragile1 |
well… actualy blender got quite usable lately |
| 21:38 |
iqualfragile1 |
and cammeratracing is awsome |
| 21:38 |
smoke_fumus |
i tried recent versions |
| 21:39 |
Warr1024 |
I find that the extra time it takes to do what I want to in gimp is time that I would have spent waiting for photoshop to load, anyway. |
| 21:39 |
smoke_fumus |
iqualfragile1: polish a turd its still a turd :D |
| 21:39 |
celeron55 |
tbh new versions of gimp suck |
| 21:39 |
smoke_fumus |
gimp suck in general |
| 21:39 |
celeron55 |
they should've stopped at 2.6 |
| 21:39 |
celeron55 |
or 2.4 |
| 21:39 |
Warr1024 |
yeah, I don't like some of the changes they made to their UI, for sure. |
| 21:39 |
smoke_fumus |
Warr1024: also. use 64bit photoshop |
| 21:39 |
smoke_fumus |
it is almost insta-loading |
| 21:40 |
smoke_fumus |
that is if you have your 4-8 and above gb of memory |
| 21:40 |
kaeza1 |
aww... single window Gimp 2.8 is lovely |
| 21:40 |
smoke_fumus |
wait...WAIT |
| 21:40 |
celeron55 |
Warr1024: 2.8 also has bugs that make it behave very annoyingly with my window manager |
| 21:40 |
celeron55 |
(altough all other WMs tend to handle it sanely) |
| 21:40 |
smoke_fumus |
kaeza1: did 2.8 finally moved panels in column-tabs like in photoshop since cs3? |
| 21:41 |
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| 21:41 |
Warr1024 |
celeron55: which wm? |
| 21:41 |
celeron55 |
smoke_fumus: i have no idea what "panels in column-tabs like in photoshop since cs3" means but gimp 2.8 has a more or less working single windo mode |
| 21:41 |
celeron55 |
Warr1024: icewm |
| 21:41 |
celeron55 |
single window mode* |
| 21:41 |
Warr1024 |
ah, I used that for a while, back when xfce was just too bloatey. |
| 21:41 |
smoke_fumus |
*looks at screenshots* oh FINALLY. they made it usable |
| 21:41 |
smoke_fumus |
downloading |
| 21:42 |
celeron55 |
xfce is still too bloaty, and unpolished |
| 21:42 |
kaeza1 |
celeron55, which WM? |
| 21:42 |
kaeza1 |
smoke_fumus, PS is a pile of shit. don't ever mention it in my presence |
| 21:42 |
Warr1024 |
lol |
| 21:42 |
smoke_fumus |
kaeza1: i can tell you above few dozens of prooves that this statement is full of bull |
| 21:42 |
celeron55 |
lol isn't that a bit aggravating |
| 21:43 |
NakedFury |
one windowed gimp? the world will end soon |
| 21:43 |
Warr1024 |
frankly though, I rarely use gimp anymore now that I know inkscape pretty well. |
| 21:43 |
kaeza1 |
IDK, I only talk BS 'cause I don't use Gimp or PS :P |
| 21:43 |
smoke_fumus |
Warr1024: what about sai? |
| 21:43 |
NakedFury |
I always use paint.net |
| 21:43 |
Warr1024 |
smoke_fumus: what's sai? |
| 21:43 |
kaeza1 |
ASEprite :3 |
| 21:44 |
celeron55 |
i use gimp, because there just isn't other software for linux that does what i need |
| 21:44 |
smoke_fumus |
one of the best image editors if you have graphical tablet |
| 21:44 |
Warr1024 |
ah, I ain't got one of those. |
| 21:44 |
Warr1024 |
I find inkscape to be one of the better ways to work around the lack of a tablet... |
| 21:44 |
smoke_fumus |
i mean - sai paint tool just meant to be used for graphical tablet |
| 21:44 |
iqualfragile1 |
inkscape takes like hours to start up |
| 21:45 |
smoke_fumus |
it can be used for direct mouse manipulation - but its power is in custom drawing with different pressures |
| 21:45 |
smoke_fumus |
something that you can't achieve with mouse button |
| 21:45 |
iqualfragile1 |
and yeah, inkscape is an grapics editor, gimp is an immage manipulator |
| 21:45 |
khonkhortisan |
click the button really fast for more pressure |
| 21:45 |
* smoke_fumus |
slaps khonkhortisan in forehead |
| 21:46 |
Warr1024 |
I used to draw in gimp, but now what I do in inkscape is probably more accurately described as "2d modelling" |
| 21:46 |
iqualfragile1 |
i know, i like inkscape but it just takes hours to start up |
| 21:46 |
smoke_fumus |
Warr1024: corel draw anyone? |
| 21:46 |
Warr1024 |
heh, I think they used to have those on the macs back in my high school... |
| 21:46 |
NakedFury |
I wish the ipad was more precise for paint programs. even with a pen for painting I can rarely continue a line |
| 21:46 |
iqualfragile1 |
additionaly its hard to keep inkscape-generated files in an repository as they optimize the path atribute for size in inkscape svgs |
| 21:47 |
iqualfragile1 |
wich is nonsense |
| 21:47 |
Warr1024 |
well, gotta go |
| 21:47 |
Warr1024 |
see y'all later. |
| 21:48 |
smoke_fumus |
*looks at single window gimp mode* this is exactly what i wanted from this editor |
| 21:48 |
smoke_fumus |
awesome. |
| 21:48 |
khonkhortisan |
But now when you open a jpg, edit it, re-save the jpg, and quit, it complains that the .xcf was modified. |
| 21:49 |
smoke_fumus |
wat |
| 21:49 |
smoke_fumus |
Wat? |
| 21:50 |
khonkhortisan |
Until you save as .xcf, your image "isn't saved". |
| 21:50 |
khonkhortisan |
only exported, where you can lose the original |
| 21:50 |
smoke_fumus |
john_minetest: corel draw is like the oldest of vector editors and as likely most powerful of them |
| 21:50 |
khonkhortisan |
even if the export is the true original |
| 21:50 |
smoke_fumus |
that's a bug |
| 21:50 |
smoke_fumus |
not a feature |
| 21:50 |
khonkhortisan |
both |
| 21:50 |
kaeza1 |
khonkhortisan, stupid "feature" if you ask me |
| 21:51 |
smoke_fumus |
.....hell, entire windows milleniums is a feature and not a bug as microsoft says. |
| 21:51 |
smoke_fumus |
*millenium |
| 21:52 |
smoke_fumus |
although - technically speaking - ideas behind it is beyond awesome. 16bit media center based system, something which were basis for windows media center edition |
| 21:52 |
smoke_fumus |
but execution is. ya all know the drill |
| 21:53 |
smoke_fumus |
:D |
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Kacey |
http://ifunny.mobi/f/SHbJAXt01 |
| 22:30 |
bcnjr5 |
Zͨ͗͒ͧ̄Ì̸̢͖̩̮̫̩̔̾̇͆̾̋̿̕͢͟ÌÌ£Ì Ì¹ÍˆÌ¯ÍšÌ—Ì¹Í‡Ì£ÌAÌ‹Ì̉͑̚ÍÍ—Ì̂̾̇ÌÌ”ÌŽÌŽÍ ÌµÌ¸Ì²Í̬̻̯͓L̃ͩ̎ͣ͋͛Í̎̽ͨ͂ÍÍ̷̸̵̪̖̹̹̯̤̥͉̂ͧͪ̔͂ͮ͟ͅG͆͂̿̑͗̇ͪÌ̺̮̾͊̿ͤͯͣ͑̓͘̕͜͞Í̦͈̱̱̳̟̗̯̣͕OÌ†ÍŒÍƒÌ…Ì‚Ì’Í—Ì¿ÍŠÍƒÍ§Ì…ÌˆÌ¶Ì›Ì›ÍžÌ Ì˜Ì°Ì®Ì²Ì˜Í“Í–Ì̯̻̱!̽ͧ̃ͩ̓ͨ̊ͦ̀̑ÌÌŠÍ‚ÍƒÌ‡Ì‹Ì·Ì´ÍœÍ Ì´ÍÍ̯̦̳̮͚ÌÌ Ì£Ì²ÌªÍˆÌ» |
| 22:30 |
smoke_fumus |
bcnjr5: OUT! |
| 22:30 |
bcnjr5 |
What? |
| 22:30 |
smoke_fumus |
wat was that? |
| 22:30 |
bcnjr5 |
Unicode? |
| 22:31 |
smoke_fumus |
... |
| 22:31 |
bcnjr5 |
¯\(°_o)/¯ |
| 22:32 |
thexyz |
woo! |
| 22:33 |
thexyz |
http://buildbot.minetest.net/build/TA8fphUJsoVfBsofo9MKUi |
| 22:33 |
smoke_fumus |
---- |
| 22:34 |
khonkhortisan |
that doesn't display right at all for me, starting selection at the right, I can go either way and it makes it longer |
| 22:41 |
thexyz |
oh, well |
| 22:41 |
thexyz |
it failed anyway |
| 22:41 |
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| 22:42 |
PilzAdam |
thexyz, but it failed epicly because everyone can see it! |
| 22:42 |
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| 22:45 |
thexyz |
i wonder why was it looking for intl.lib.lib |
| 22:46 |
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| 22:48 |
lordcirth |
Could someone explain how to register a node as a digilines effector / receiver? |
| 22:49 |
iqualfragile1 |
nice a buildbot |
| 22:50 |
lordcirth |
I've set effector{action=on_receive_digilines} but a print statement in on_receive_digilines never runs |
| 22:50 |
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| 22:50 |
khonkhortisan |
digiline = { receptor = {}, effector = { action = func() }, }, |
| 22:51 |
lordcirth |
khonkhortisan: the declaration in effector{} needs the args as well? |
| 22:51 |
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| 22:51 |
lordcirth |
khonkhortisan: I'm using digilines_rtc for sample code |
| 22:51 |
khonkhortisan |
no it's just the name of a function |
| 22:52 |
lordcirth |
khonkhortisan: no () after? |
| 22:52 |
khonkhortisan |
action = on_digiline_receive |
| 22:52 |
lordcirth |
khonkhortisan: because that part of my code is identical to RTC, but it doesn't run |
| 22:52 |
khonkhortisan |
Does your function have the same four arguments? |
| 22:53 |
lordcirth |
khonkhortisan: yes |
| 22:53 |
khonkhortisan |
setchan and timeofday don't need to be their own variables |
| 22:54 |
khonkhortisan |
May I see the code? |
| 22:55 |
thexyz |
okay, let's try again http://buildbot.minetest.net/build/C3aEeqfpNpJkXSQetXxCvC |
| 22:56 |
lordcirth |
khonkhortisan: http://bpaste.net/show/97827/ |
| 22:57 |
khonkhortisan |
You sometimes do and don't put spaces around your equals |
| 22:58 |
lordcirth |
khonkhortisan: bad form? |
| 22:59 |
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| 23:00 |
khonkhortisan |
Does it depend on digilines? |
| 23:00 |
lordcirth |
khonkhortisan: fixed. yes, default and digilines |
| 23:02 |
thexyz |
well, fuck it |
| 23:02 |
thexyz |
i'd better go to sleep |
| 23:03 |
thexyz |
last try http://buildbot.minetest.net/build/jj6CFTLtTB7T7DSa6HkmV6 |
| 23:04 |
khonkhortisan |
worksforme digiline_send("1","2") message received |
| 23:05 |
lordcirth |
khonkhortisan: you used a luacontroller to send the message? |
| 23:06 |
khonkhortisan |
yep |
| 23:08 |
lordcirth |
khonkhortisan: that works for me too - wierd |
| 23:08 |
khonkhortisan |
what doesn't work? |
| 23:08 |
lordcirth |
sending from digipad to lcd works, but not digipad -> wireless:trans |
| 23:09 |
lordcirth |
and digipad -> luacontroller works too |
| 23:12 |
lordcirth |
khonkhortisan: maybe I broke my digipad code? rolling back |
| 23:14 |
lordcirth |
khonkhortisan: well that would do it, apparently I commented out receptor={} in digipad/init.lua |
| 23:15 |
khonkhortisan |
so it wasn't being sent then |
| 23:16 |
lordcirth |
khonkhortisan: apparently. Thanks! |
| 23:20 |
* Kacey |
wants to help develop a wireless digilines mod! |
| 23:23 |
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bcnjr5 joined #minetest |
| 23:24 |
Kacey |
http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5649062/digipad-v3.zip lordcirth |
| 23:26 |
RealBadAngel |
hi all |
| 23:27 |
Kacey |
can you send me an updated link? |
| 23:28 |
lordcirth |
Kacey: check out digipadv6: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5649062/Minetest%20mods/digipadv6.zip |
| 23:28 |
lordcirth |
Kacey: digipad now has buttons to select channel, and there's now a hardened digipad |
| 23:29 |
Kacey |
lol ok |
| 23:31 |
Kacey |
whatare the channel names? |
| 23:31 |
lordcirth |
Kacey: "keypad1" "keypad2" "keypad3" |
| 23:32 |
lordcirth |
Kacey: hardened digipad has identical code, just texture and groups are different. it has the same dig properties as a steel block. |
| 23:34 |
lordcirth |
Kacey: I would be happy to have help with wireless |
| 23:34 |
Kacey |
how do i use an interupt command? |
| 23:35 |
lordcirth |
Kacey: http://mesecons.net/luacontroller/ |
| 23:37 |
Kacey |
i need to close my door after 5 seconds |
| 23:38 |
harrison |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt5SS67TE7c |
| 23:38 |
lordcirth |
Kacey: should I make wireless infinite range? its looking like it would be simplest, if a 1 sec delay for abm is ok |
| 23:39 |
lordcirth |
Kacey: interrupt(5,"closeDoor") |
| 23:39 |
lordcirth |
Kacey: then at the beginning of the code, check if event.iid=="closeDoor" |
| 23:43 |
harrison |
so the mesecons controller is an inworld IDE for a lua script |
| 23:43 |
harrison |
i suppose minecraft has something similar |
| 23:43 |
harrison |
i wonder what language |
| 23:44 |
harrison |
second life's scripting is much more baroque |
| 23:44 |
khonkhortisan |
it is a malformed sandbox |
| 23:44 |
harrison |
sl? |
| 23:44 |
khonkhortisan |
keywords cannot be redefined, so it does a simple string search. |
| 23:45 |
khonkhortisan |
"--fork = spoon" will blacklist your script |
| 23:45 |
RealBadAngel |
ive seen many in mc. best one is 6502 cpu with complete hardware, programmable in asm, and forth compiler wrote in it |
| 23:45 |
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ssieb joined #minetest |
| 23:45 |
lordcirth |
RealBadAngel: A Forth compiler? that's amazing |
| 23:45 |
harrison |
redefinition forbidden to to prevent attacks ? |
| 23:45 |
khonkhortisan |
to prevent slowdown/freezing only |
| 23:46 |
khonkhortisan |
you can attack just by installing a mod |
| 23:46 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, thats a VMception! |
| 23:46 |
RealBadAngel |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pyrTM_aZQI |
| 23:46 |
harrison |
for both SL scripting and minetest scripting, the client program is coded in a statically compiled language |
| 23:47 |
lordcirth |
khonkhortisan: installing a mod on the client doesn't affect a server you connect to, does it? |
| 23:47 |
khonkhortisan |
correct |
| 23:47 |
khonkhortisan |
it only mods the singleplayer game |
| 23:47 |
RealBadAngel |
PilzAdam, we could have easily programmable computer in minetest too |
| 23:47 |
lordcirth |
khonkhortisan: so that's not really an "attack" like he probably meant |
| 23:47 |
harrison |
thus scripting is in an interpreted language differing from the host language |
| 23:48 |
khonkhortisan |
os.execute ftw |
| 23:48 |
RealBadAngel |
but it would requite core code for it to work |
| 23:48 |
harrison |
i wondered -- is this restriction inevitable? |
| 23:48 |
khonkhortisan |
luacontrollers start with core lua keywords which cannot be redefined, then add some string, math, and api stuff to it. |
| 23:49 |
harrison |
or can static code be compiled and injected into a running virtual world? |
| 23:49 |
RealBadAngel |
http://libz80.sourceforge.net/ |
| 23:49 |
harrison |
the answer is yes of course |
| 23:49 |
harrison |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOocN1BKjh0 |
| 23:50 |
PilzAdam |
can somone just fork Minetest and turn it into an OS? |
| 23:50 |
harrison |
you are all welcome to join #spasim |
| 23:50 |
khonkhortisan |
Not until you can mod in-game |
| 23:51 |
PilzAdam |
harrison, what is this spasim? |
| 23:51 |
PilzAdam |
(I have seen the videos) |
| 23:51 |
harrison |
spasim.org |
| 23:51 |
sapier |
self modifying code is very bad style ;-) (don't tell me there might be some reasons thats true but not a common usecase) |
| 23:52 |
harrison |
sapier: are you responding to my description ? |
| 23:52 |
lordcirth |
How bad of a mem leak would it be to append all wireless msgs, short strings, to an array that never erased? |
| 23:52 |
harrison |
i never worry about such things |
| 23:52 |
sapier |
no just read this conversation and what you describe is self modifying code |
| 23:53 |
harrison |
no, it isn't |
| 23:53 |
harrison |
no code is ever modified at runtime |
| 23:53 |
harrison |
new code is compiled and injected |
| 23:54 |
sapier |
if you write new code to be executed somewhere this is same as self modifying |
| 23:54 |
harrison |
or rather introjected |
| 23:54 |
harrison |
You seem to know a lot for someone who has no idea what I am talking about. |
| 23:54 |
RealBadAngel |
anyone good in blender here? |
| 23:55 |
harrison |
that's not funny |
| 23:55 |
harrison |
my aunt died in an industrial blender |
| 23:56 |
lordcirth |
harrison: were you responding to me when you said "i never worry about such things" ? |
| 23:56 |
sapier |
you try to create an interpreter for code within an os like system run within an interpreter run on top of a compiled application running within an os running on a processor |
| 23:56 |
harrison |
never worry about mem leaks, yes |
| 23:56 |
harrison |
see sapier? no idea |
| 23:57 |
harrison |
interpreter lol |
| 23:57 |
sapier |
lua is an interpreter in standard case |
| 23:57 |
lordcirth |
If you declare an array, and set elements [1] and [100], do 2-99 use any/much RAM? |
| 23:57 |
RealBadAngel |
and all runnin in matrix... ;) |
| 23:58 |
harrison |
your weak attempt at invoking an infinite regress has failed |
| 23:58 |
thexyz |
lordcirth: yes |
| 23:58 |
harrison |
don't try to mise en abyme me |
| 23:58 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, and the matrix is interpreted by the first named intepreter :D |
| 23:58 |
sapier |
no most likely between "application running within " and "os .. " thers a "on top of wine" |
| 23:58 |
lordcirth |
thexyz: as much as a large string? do all strings use the same amount of RAM, like ints do? |
| 23:59 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, is it thread safe then? |
| 23:59 |
harrison |
wine? you seem more like a ketamine type |
| 23:59 |
thexyz |
lordcirth: what language are you writing in? how do you declare that array? |
| 23:59 |
lordcirth |
thexyz: lua. I'm modding minetest here. |
| 23:59 |
tripod |
awwwwwwwwwwwwww yeah |
| 23:59 |
sapier |
harrison calm down and don't get personal it's not me suggesting creating some vm within mod api ;-) |
