Time Nick Message 00:00 thexyz there actually is but no one cares 00:00 sapier still what you see in ios android windows and even linux if you use gnome or kde are no longer the old directorys know to most of us 00:00 VanessaE why does minetest even give two shits *what* the directory name is for a particular mod? 00:01 Menche not allowing spaces in modnames would be practical, i have *no* idea why dashes aren't allowed 00:01 sapier those are "virtual folders" that could be anything ... a plain collection of files, a cloud drive your ipad 00:01 iqualfragile1 ah, got it 00:01 Warr1024 doing a recursive search and just detecting any "mod.txt" files or something would be an interesting way to make mod installation a bit more idiot-resistant... 00:01 Menche (i *hate* folder names with spaces) 00:01 ShadowNinja VanessaE: To enforce the modname:itemname convention I imagine. 00:01 Menche ShadowNinja: that is a good reason to not allow colons, but not dashes 00:02 iqualfragile1 me too but whats worse is when people put / or \ in it 00:02 sapier but folders just was an example how mind concept of current users has changed compared to what some of us expect to be reality 00:02 VanessaE ShadowNinja: and yet, how many complaints, as kaeza said, do we tend to get about mods not working just because the folder name is "wrong"? 00:02 Warr1024 you could just specify the mod name inside the mod code, instead of inferring it from the dir structure... 00:02 sapier i personally dislike those virtual folders too ;-) 00:02 Menche and disallowing dashes is especially annoying because of how github appends "-master" to it's zip archives 00:02 VanessaE Warr1024: the mod name is already specified as part of any item or node being registered 00:02 Warr1024 VanessaE: ah, then in that case, the folder name already IS unnecessary...? 00:02 Menche and because of users like likwid who add "-master" because they assume it's a convention :P 00:02 thexyz renaming a directory is a very hard task it seems 00:03 sapier allowing some additional characters won't fix the real problem 00:03 Warr1024 I thought that -master thing was a github thing. 00:03 Menche Warr1024: it is 00:03 VanessaE though I suppose there's an argument for mods that don't define anything, but rather *re*define stuff. in which case, how would the engine go about deciding what the mods' names are? 00:03 Menche and it breaks the mod loading 00:04 VanessaE thexyz: for a lot of people, it seems to be. These are the same people who try to run Minetest from within the zip and then complain that nothing gets saved. 00:04 Warr1024 for certain platforms, you could probably package minetest with an installer to avoid the "run-from-zip" issue 00:04 sapier the zip problem is easyly solved by making an installer available 00:05 VanessaE yes 00:05 kaeza thexyz, renaming directory is not hard, but newcomers are like 'WTF?? this mod does not work!'" 00:05 Warr1024 and as for unzipping mods into the right places, you could simplify the user experience by loading mods directly from zips, and not giving two shits about folder structure... 00:05 kaeza and spam the forums with the same questions 00:05 Menche needing to rename a folder to load a mod is stupid. 00:05 VanessaE Warr1024: now THAT would be useful 00:05 sapier where should a newcommer know he needs to rename it? reaing 3000 line lua-api.txt? 00:05 kaeza Warr1024, +1000000 00:06 sapier finding one of felt 40 wiki pages? 00:06 VanessaE users need to fucking learn to use their computers, but until they do, we gotta try to make it a little easier for them 00:07 ShadowNinja How about assuming all folders to be modpacks unless they contain a init.lua? 00:07 VanessaE (even if, to us, it's *already* easy) 00:07 kaeza ShadowNinja, that wouldn't solve the problem 00:07 sapier that attitude only drives users away ... if we want to attract them we need to help em 00:08 Menche what is the reason for disallowing dashes in modnames? 00:08 sapier requesting each mod to add a "modinfo.txt" to main folder would solve the problem if adding mods by gui would be possible 00:08 Warr1024 I sort of understand that one; when sanitizing input and I know that SOME characters may cause problems, I tend to just block all but a small set. 00:09 sapier that modinfo could contain a small description to be displayed as well as "real" modname. minetest itself could copy the mod to this folder 00:10 PilzAdam bye 00:10 iqualfragile1 bb 00:12 kaeza why was the mod name enforcing mechanism added in the first place? 00:12 NekoGloop so that item names didn't ever conflict 00:12 sapier I guess it's been meant to avoid name collisions between mods 00:12 sapier which is obviously a good idea 00:13 kaeza well... you can already do that anyway 00:13 sapier no you cant 00:13 Warr1024 one nice thing about requiring the mod name to be the same as the folder (directory :-D) name is that it prevents mod authors from overwriting each others' folders, despite having the "mod name" being the same... 00:14 kaeza sapier, if you design a "foomod", you will prefix all items with "foomod:" 00:14 sapier more important is you can be sure if mods have differen't names they won't overwrite other mods items/nodes ... if you didn't enforce this you'll always have name collision problems 00:15 sapier in theory any modder will do this while in reality it'll be called "default:wheat" 00:15 Warr1024 aside from using a naming convention like com.gmail.authorname.modname or something, I don't see how you'll avoid eventually having a name collision between one of the many, say, "hunger" mods out there... 00:15 kaeza if other user creates another mod called "foomod", well, that is a conflict between modders 00:16 sapier yes but this conflict is quite obvious 00:16 Warr1024 not that it makes sense exactly to install more than one mod with the same purpose, but it may make sense to try to blend trimmed-down versions of each... 00:16 sapier I once had a problem because of using "debug" as prefix for debug functions 00:16 kaeza if you create, say, a "wool" mod, you won't be able to use it along with "wool" mod in minetest_game/common 00:16 sapier until realizing debug is already a lua module which I didn't use bot other mods did 00:17 sapier yes so you know a t once you'll get problems with those two mods 00:17 sapier and not wonder why all your wool nodes are undefined or wrong now 00:18 Warr1024 it would be nice if there were some way to make conflicting mods fail more gracefully than that... 00:18 sapier I don't see any realistic option to do so 00:19 sapier if there's a naming conflict how to decide which one to be correct? and how to decide what this decision causes in the now "wrong" mod 00:19 iqualfragile1 ksnapshot has an upload to imgurl function 00:19 Warr1024 true 00:19 iqualfragile1 thats cool 00:19 kaeza you may as weel want your mod to override a default one 00:19 kaeza well* 00:19 Warr1024 simplest solution I can come up with is to pick some arbitrary, but stable, method to pick one mod, and disable the rest that conflict. 00:20 sapier which might cause all mods depending on default to fail 00:20 kaeza well, that is the modder's problem :) 00:20 Warr1024 heh, ouch :-) 00:20 VanessaE Warr1024: I believe kahrl was working on that 00:21 iqualfragile1 gn8 00:21 sapier that'll be problem of those modders failing due to some other modder doing wrong ... still what exactly would be benefit of allowing all names? 00:22 Menche could minetest use the folder name before the first dash as the modname and ignore the rest? that would fix the problem of github adding "-master" to the zip archives 00:22 VanessaE Menche: wouldn't work either, some mods don't follow that naming convention 00:22 sapier still what's benefit of this? 00:22 kaeza no more posts about "error loading init.lua: ..../minetest/mods/minetest/foomod-master/init.lua:123: blah" ? 00:22 Menche VanessaE: how wouldn't it work? 00:23 VanessaE Menche: some existing mods have username-modname"-master", others are modname"-master", still others are "minetest-mod-"modname 00:23 sapier yes but still users wouldn't know where to put the mod 00:24 Warr1024 just ignore folder names and use modinfo.txt or init.lua to determine the mod name... 00:24 sapier so you need to assist them for this ... any usefull option doing this would be able to fix the folder name too 00:24 Menche so? you could name it "foomod", "foomod-myfork", or "foomod-master" and the modname would always be "foomod" 00:25 sapier and you wouldn't recognize sapierscoolmod is colliding with sapiersevencoolermod 00:25 VanessaE Menche: with your idea, "Minetest-Worldedit" -> "Minetest", instead of just "worldedit". 00:25 kaeza any error in mod code is the modder's fault. error because folder is named wrong is not 00:25 Menche VanessaE: it would be ignored for modpacks, of course 00:26 VanessaE sure, but Worldedit isn't a modpack is it? 00:26 kaeza modders are expected to know how the engine works (at least a bit) 00:26 sapier ok you wouldnd realize kaezascoolmod colliding sapierscoolmod ... of course YOUR mod is wrong not mine 00:26 Menche VanessaE: it has to be, it has a dash in it 00:26 Warr1024 of course, you could avoid the naming problem without changing ANY code right now by repackaging all mods as modpacks... 00:26 VanessaE well true, good point 00:26 VanessaE but you still get my point 00:26 Menche not really 00:26 Menche i think making it a modpack was just a workaround 00:27 VanessaE I've seen examples of all three naming conventions in the wild, for plain old mods.. 00:27 Menche pardon me for a minute as a look closer at worldedit 00:27 kaeza Warr1024, that defeats the whole purpose of individual mods 00:28 kaeza let's repackage everything into a modpack consisting of a single individyal mod 00:28 Warr1024 true, it IS a workaround. 00:28 Menche VanessaE: if a dash is in the name, it has to be a modpack. my idea wouldn't apply to modpacks 00:28 Warr1024 of course, if you know enough to make a modpack, you know enough to break apart the existing one-mod modpacks. 00:29 Warr1024 it's a cheap, quick and dirty solution that alleviates somewhat the folder naming problem for end-users, while not requiring the attention of core devs. 00:29 VanessaE Menche: right, but a large percentage of regular old mods are distributed with folder names that fall into one of the three classes I described. All three of those classes would fail with your idea, unfortunately. 00:29 kaeza Warr1024, that's hacky 00:29 sapier I still think all this is useless if core had a gui for adding mods 00:29 Menche how? they can't have dashes 00:29 VanessaE Menche: exactly. 00:29 VanessaE but they have them anyway 00:29 VanessaE forcing users to rename them 00:30 Menche so they crash on startup. how would my way be worse? 00:30 VanessaE your way wouldn't solve the problem, that's how :) 00:30 Menche VanessaE: the fault is with the modders. the fix is to make the modders change it. 00:31 Warr1024 As I understand it, it's the fault of hosts like github that make up their own folder names at will... 00:31 Menche if they don't change it, then the fix is to move it to "old mods" and have someone fork it if they want it to work 00:31 Warr1024 modders COULD solve that by offering hand-made zip downloads 00:31 Warr1024 but personally that would drive me nuts 00:31 VanessaE Warr1024: that's true too, and I've asked them before to make that configurable. they have not seen fit to do so. 00:31 kaeza so let's summarize: what are the pros and cons of the name enforcing mechanism? 00:31 Warr1024 I'd rather just have users pull my code from git. 00:32 kaeza Warr1024, ORLY? 00:32 Menche my way would allow adding suffixes that are just for human reading 00:32 sapier if you release a stable version warr1024 instead of expecting users to always test latest version this wouldn't be that bad 00:32 Warr1024 sapier: you mean a stable version of my hypothetical mod? 00:32 Menche for example, if I want to make my own version if vines mod, i could call it vines-menche, and the modname would be vines 00:32 sapier those who want latest version are most likely capable of renaming a folder 00:33 Menche it would be a replacement of original vines, so they wouldn't be installed at the same time 00:33 sapier and common users would download that stable prepackaged version 00:33 kaeza Warr1024, tell Joe Random Average User that he needs to download a git client, and "git clone" (or GUI alternative) 00:33 Warr1024 true. however, I find it much easier in general to find, and work with, hosting for git repos that will automatically make zips, compared to manually making them and finding some file locker to reliably serve it... 00:33 sapier mobf for example supplies a 8.5 mb stable zip, gitgub version is .. hmm don't even know exactly but I guess >25mb 00:33 Warr1024 kaeza: I'm talking more about the use-case of having github or gitorious build the archive for you 00:34 sapier cause github version contails lots of raw data not required to use mobf 00:34 Warr1024 sapier: I'd consider mobf to be a bit of a special case at that scale :-) 00:34 kaeza Warr1024, blame github for deciding to name the folders *inside* the zip 00:35 kaeza it wouldn't be bad if they just made "foomod-master.zip" containing "foomod" folder 00:35 sapier even if mobf is a special case creating one zip every 3 months shouldn't be too bad for any mod developer 00:35 Warr1024 kaeza: true, though it would certainly be nice if minetest could just accept it no matter how github mangles it. 00:35 kaeza well... that was my original point :) 00:35 sapier warr1024 if minetest accepts it you'll get more strange error about things simply not working 00:36 Warr1024 sapier: that's assuming that the modder is only releasing a new "stable" every few months; personally, if someone found a bug in a mod I'd published and advertised stable support for, I'd fix it in that branch and do a maint release... 00:36 kaeza sapier, like? 00:36 sapier like some node not beeing available some entity being replaced ... 00:36 Menche i typically only push a commit to my mods when I've tested it, and I'd rather not make a new "stable" release with each commit 00:36 Warr1024 sapier: when I said "accept," I meant to imply *without* subsequent strange errors :-) 00:36 sapier I release more stable versions too of course but way less than github commits 00:37 kaeza blame the modder for not writing right object names 00:37 Menche so i'd like people to be able to use github's master archive 00:37 Warr1024 I usually like to have a master (dev), testing, and release branch. 00:37 sapier yes I want a self programmin game too warr1024 but accetping any name will result in strange errors there's no way of avoiding this 00:38 Warr1024 if I find a bug in release, I rewind testing to the tip of release, commit the fix to testing, test the fix, then fast-forward release to where testing is now. 00:38 sapier there's no use in blaming anyone ... it doesn't help if kaeza is guilty mod won't work either 00:38 Warr1024 sapier: wait, you mean any characters in the MOD name, or the FOLDER name? 00:39 sapier currently folder and mod name are linked there's no way of changing this without getting strange errors 00:39 Warr1024 I thought the problem here was the folder name, since mod authors have control over the mod name, but the folder names get mangled... 00:39 kaeza ehm... I don't understand that statement 00:39 Warr1024 there's NO way of changing this? 00:39 sapier kaeza you're always talking about blaming someone ... blaming did never fix any bug 00:40 kaeza blame harder then 00:40 Warr1024 personally, I prefer to fix bugs with a commit 00:40 sapier no modname is required prefix for all nodes and entities 00:40 VanessaE sapier: sadly, neither will this conversation :-/ 00:40 sapier and for lua names only a special subset of characters is allowed 00:41 sapier vanessae you're to pessimistic 00:41 VanessaE sapier: I'm a realist 00:41 kaeza I still don't understand what does directory name have to do with mod namespace 00:41 sapier me to I don't expect this conversation to fix any problems until tomorrow 00:42 sapier directory name currently defines mod namespace 00:42 sapier unless you add a new way of defining it (which will never be as obvious as directory name) you can't make any character available in directory name 00:43 kaeza again, what does directory name have to do with mod namespace 00:43 kaeza ? 00:43 sapier its it definition 00:43 sapier what does your name have to do with kaeza 00:43 sapier yes you could add another way of defining a namespace 00:44 kaeza what is the *real* problem with defining foomod:foonode in a mod whose folder name is myfoomod? 00:44 sapier modname.txt for example 00:44 kaeza well... that could be an option 00:44 sapier problem is you hide conflicts 00:44 kaeza or perhaps Lua way of doing things 00:45 sapier if you add a mod called coolmod1 you can be sure it won't add any node conflicts to your mod coolmod2 00:45 Warr1024 I sort of like the idea of being able to have mods redefine stuff from other mods that way... 00:46 kaeza meh I give up 00:46 sapier this idea sounds nice at first but you won't like it anymore if you had to look for a bug because some insane mod redefined one of your entities 00:46 kaeza even if we come to an agreement, some core dev will just say no 00:46 VanessaE kaeza: how do you propose to solve the issue of a mod that doesn't actually define anything under its own namespace? 00:46 VanessaE where does that mod get its name from? 00:47 kaeza VanessaE, the Lua way 00:47 VanessaE which would be...? 00:47 kaeza module "foomod"; 00:47 sapier and what order do mods redefine entities and nodes? 00:47 sapier who is the one actually defining it? 00:47 VanessaE kaeza: in init.lua or something? 00:47 kaeza yep 00:47 VanessaE ok, that's fair. 00:48 sapier no it's not 00:48 sapier you can remove the prefix check in this case 00:48 sapier won't be any difference 00:49 VanessaE sapier: you're not listening.... if I provide mycoolmod, and name its folder "foobarmod", how does the engine know it's called "mycoolmod"? 00:49 kaeza and why should the engine care about that in the first place? 00:49 sapier it shouldn't and deny loading of invalid mod 00:49 VanessaE nevermind that this is a completely illogical say to do the folder name. 00:50 VanessaE way* 00:50 sapier ok vanessae how do you ensure a mod doesn't replace another mods entities and nodes? 00:50 VanessaE kaeza: it shouldn't - but it still needs to know what to call the mod, hence your 'module "mycoolmod"' idea. 00:50 Warr1024 I would guess the engine would just see an init.lua, try to load it as a mod, and check the name of the module it just loaded... 00:50 kaeza sapier, blame the modder for not paying attention 00:50 VanessaE sapier: by not getting stupid and installing conflicting mods to begin with? 00:51 kaeza and what VanessaE said 00:51 sapier and now tell me how do i know if two modules conflict? 00:51 Warr1024 I still blame github for renaming shit without my permission :-) 00:51 kaeza let's blame everyone! 00:51 VanessaE sapier: same way as now - by seeing that something unexpected is happening with a given item/mob/node/whatever 00:51 kaeza sapier, with the current way, you are blaming the user for not renaming the mod 00:51 sapier great vanessae you really have to much time 00:52 sapier or you never did debug an application containing code of different programmers 00:52 VanessaE sapier: do I have too much time, or do you just not spend *enough* time on that particular area? 00:52 VanessaE sorry, but this is an area where I will not budge 00:53 VanessaE if a person doesn't have time to do it right, they shouldn't be doing it at all 00:53 kaeza sapier, fun fact: you can already redefine other mod's items. this isn't fort knox 00:53 VanessaE indeed, a couple of my mods do that. 00:53 sapier I can format your drive kaeza fun fact too 00:54 kaeza stay on topic please 00:54 sapier still why are you all focused to that damn modnames instead of adding a userfriendly way of adding a mod 00:54 sapier copying a mod ... guys that was userfriendly ages ag 00:54 sapier o 00:54 VanessaE sapier: because figuring out the issues with naming mods is a lot easier than coding a UI to install them via? 00:55 sapier no it isn't 00:55 sapier you're introducing whole new erorr classes if your suggestion is realized 00:55 VanessaE well then code something :) 00:55 Warr1024 yay pull reqs ftw 00:55 VanessaE if it's so easy to code a mod installer UI, then do it 00:55 kaeza sapier, errors you can already cause 00:56 sapier I stopped coding more than 5 line improvements for minetest when I realized big improvements aren't accepted by core developers 00:56 sapier it's a difference if I have to run 1000miles to kill someone or do it instantly 00:57 kaeza wat 00:57 Warr1024 haha, yes, highly wat 00:57 VanessaE sapier: um...strawman argument 00:57 sapier just because something is already possibly it doesn't mean it's good 00:57 sapier yes exactly as silly as always telling "but it's allready possible" for any silly thing 00:58 sapier it's never been ment to be possible if it was meant to be possible prefix check would've never been added 00:58 Warr1024 would it really? 00:58 VanessaE fixing dashes in a modname would probably be little more than a one or two line change to the engine. making it ignore the folder when a "module" line is included in init.lua (or perhaps a separate file declaring the mod name) is probably also a fairly small change 00:58 VanessaE in both cases, surely a lot less code than a mod installer/manager UI 00:59 VanessaE (and we already have the manager part) 00:59 sapier yes and both cases effectifly rendering prefix check useless 00:59 VanessaE yes? so? that's the whole damn point 00:59 VanessaE to get rid of the prefix check 00:59 Warr1024 zip loader would be more than a few lines, but if it's REALLY worth it, it could be maintained as a fork until it's proven well enough to justify a merge... 01:00 sapier ok do it and all errors caused by name conflicts will be fixed by those removing the check 01:00 VanessaE sapier: or by those who are stupid enough to ignore "Conflicts" and similar declarations on the mods' forum pages 01:01 sapier so I will have to rename all my mods if some stupid programmer creates a new mod abusing my mods ... thanks alot 01:01 Warr1024 isn't that already the case? 01:01 kaeza sapier, if your mod is a well established one, blame the new modder 01:01 Warr1024 or... you could just put up with it ;-) 01:01 sapier no as currently noone ever will be able to install both 01:02 Warr1024 they can just make your mod a dependency and then mess with it on init... 01:02 sapier I give up ... basic concepts of avoiding errors seam to be too complicated to implement within minetest 01:03 sapier have you ever heared of beeing better not to make mistakes than fixing them after happening? 01:03 Warr1024 the only way to make software avoid any errors is pretty much to avoid doing anything interesting. 01:03 VanessaE *sigh* 01:03 VanessaE sapier: mod conflicts are a fact of life, whether folder names matter or not 01:04 VanessaE tell the idiot who wrote the mod that conflicts with yours to fix his code 01:04 VanessaE problem solved. 01:04 VanessaE first past the post is how this needs to be handles. 01:04 VanessaE handled*( 01:04 sapier so why are there airbags and esp systems in cars if accidents still happen? 01:04 kaeza wat 01:04 VanessaE sapier: strawman argument 01:04 VanessaE stay on topic. 01:05 Warr1024 um, inverse strawman argument? 01:05 sapier no it's just an exaple YOU tell just because mistakes happen you shouldn't add anything reducing mistakes 01:05 VanessaE sapier: some kinds of mistakes can't be fixed that easily. 01:05 sapier moreover you even suggest REMOVING something reducing mistakes 01:05 VanessaE any proposal you come up with is only going to add more work for the modder 01:06 kaeza sapier, I'll just make a new "animalmaterials" mod and see how well the name enforcing mechanism helps with that 01:06 Warr1024 wait, what? reducing mistakes? 01:06 sapier and looking for strange bugs is less work for modders? 01:06 Warr1024 I thought the problem was that it was INCREASING mistakes for users 01:06 VanessaE sapier: we already have to look for strange bugs anyway 01:06 Warr1024 i.e. by causing something that they're doing that's not REALLY wrong to be interpreted as a mistake, i.e. naming the mod folder wrong. 01:06 sapier yes because we already have errors we can remove any error check 01:07 sapier same argument as you already mentioned some minutes ago 01:07 kaeza sapier, so a mod not working because the damn folder is named wrong is not a "strange" error? 01:07 Warr1024 I think the argument is that the error check doesn't really do anything. 01:07 VanessaE no I mean removing the error checks (as you call it) *won't introduce new errors* 01:07 VanessaE Warr1024: exactly. 01:07 Warr1024 it's like putting airbags in cars to mitigate accidents, but then having them go off at random while you're trying to drive and *causing* accidents. 01:07 VanessaE the "error check" is useless! 01:08 sapier ok I'll replace some of moretrees nodes by entities in next mobf release 01:08 sapier of course I'll hide that code 01:08 sapier you'll never find out who did it 01:08 VanessaE Warr1024: for a correct car analogy, it's like having airbags go off in a 5pmh collision with a bollard in a parking lot, when you're the sort of driver who would NEVER get behind the wheel without wearing a seat belt. 01:08 Warr1024 I thought we were talking about accidental problems, not malicious ones? 01:09 VanessaE sapier: bisect your mods tree until you find the collision. same way we sort it out now. 01:09 sapier cause I'm gonna use curl to download an application saved in temp and modify code on the fly 01:10 kaeza sapier, ehm... 01:10 sapier imho prefix check helps a lot avoiding naming collisions you don't have same oppinion I accept this but I'll never be same opinion you are 01:10 VanessaE sapier: stop trying to invent new ways to break the proposal - your suggestions *are already a problem right now!* 01:11 VanessaE you're literally not suggesting anything that can't already be a problem nopw 01:11 VanessaE now* 01:11 sapier what suggestions? 01:11 VanessaE [05-08 21:09] cause I'm gonna use curl to download an application saved in temp and modify code on the fly 01:11 VanessaE can't we already do this now? 01:11 Warr1024 yes 01:11 sapier that's just been a short summary of all those open issues with minetest 01:11 VanessaE [05-08 21:08] ok I'll replace some of moretrees nodes by entities in next mobf release 01:12 VanessaE and this? 01:12 Warr1024 as I understand it, you can link in native code. 01:12 kaeza Warr1024, yes you can 01:12 sapier I won't do this because I'm not someone to destroy others work but there are ppl out there doing exactly this 01:12 OldCoder Hi. My VPS hard disks had a failure. I have fixed things. Please visit my worlds if you know them and tell me if all is well. 01:12 OldCoder Restarting now 01:13 VanessaE sapier: then those users will surely be avoided 01:13 VanessaE just like we do now 01:13 kaeza Warr1024, IRC mod install a backdoor, but don't tell anyone OK? 01:13 kaeza ;) 01:13 Warr1024 I think that the question of how to prevent malicious mod code is probably beyond the scope of minetest... 01:13 VanessaE Warr1024: agreed, this is way out of scope right now 01:13 sapier I can't even count how often mobf has been blamed for other modders errors ... removing prefix check wont reduce number of future false blames 01:13 Warr1024 kaeza: heh, I can't get the damn thing to work due to what is supposedly a bug in Lua 5.1. 01:13 VanessaE sapier: stop changing the subject! 01:14 VanessaE this isn't about who blames mobf or doesn't. 01:14 VanessaE this is about making mods easier for your "average dumb user" to install 01:14 sapier I didn't change subject I believe removing prefix check won't life easier for modders but worse 01:15 kaeza and having check in place makes worse the lives of users 01:15 Warr1024 is it more important to make life easier for modders, or users? 01:15 kaeza (and in the end also the modders) 01:15 sapier imho average dumb users benefit isn't big enough to quantify lost time on modders side 01:15 VanessaE the only people whose lives are likely to be affected negatively, are the idiots who insist on installing incompatible, conflicting mods - like plantlife being installed on the same world as the old nature pack for exmaple. 01:15 VanessaE sample* 01:15 VanessaE EXAMPLE* damn it... 01:16 VanessaE (I hate my hands) 01:16 sapier yes of course if you install only one modders mod you'll never get any conflict 01:16 Warr1024 making lives easier for users MAY also make life easier for modders, though, as you won't have to field as many basic support questions... 01:16 VanessaE sapier: in my example, plantlife conflicts with the old nature pack because the latter contains an old, outdated copy of plants_lib. 01:16 Warr1024 but on the other hand, modders tend to have more technical know-how than the average user, so probably need less help in general... 01:17 sapier I assume writing 200 times "rename to xzy" is way faster than looking for 20 naming conflict bugs 01:17 kaeza sapier, again, what naming problems? 01:17 VanessaE the whole point is to not have to tell the user to rename the folder at all! 01:17 VanessaE because THEY SHOULD NOT NEED TO! 01:18 sapier for example node names and entity names aren't allowed to be same 01:18 VanessaE it's stupid to require it when it could have been done a better way somehow 01:18 VanessaE sapier: so you propose that a mod should not be allowed to redefine a node in another mod? 01:18 Warr1024 That'd be harsh. 01:18 VanessaE (node/entity/item/whatever) 01:19 sapier if some silly person replaces your node by an entity for example an invisible entity you'll have a lot of time to find why your node isn't placed correctly 01:19 sapier currently this isn't allowed 01:19 sapier without abusing bugs 01:19 VanessaE so then how is pipeworks supposed to be able to make a chest visibly connect to a pneumatic tube with textures suitable for the purpose? the only way to do that is to redefine it. 01:20 sapier or add a separate chest 01:20 VanessaE um, no 01:20 Warr1024 what about existing ones? 01:20 VanessaE wrong in every possible way 01:20 sapier no YOU believe it's wrong 01:20 VanessaE it is NOT a bug to be able to redefine a mod! 01:20 VanessaE er a node 01:20 sapier ok now take your idea a little bit further 01:21 sapier what if another mod wants to redefine SAME node? 01:21 VanessaE then the last mod to execute is the one that takes precendence. 01:21 VanessaE precedence* 01:21 VanessaE just like now. 01:21 Warr1024 it would be nice to be able to ensure that all behaviors stack and combine instead of wiping out existing ones... 01:21 VanessaE https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L160 01:21 sapier and this is correct predictable behaviour? 01:22 VanessaE there. the API declares it in black and white that redefining a node is explicitly supported. 01:22 sapier I assume I have to rename all my mods to zzzzzzzzzz___mymod to ensure it's loaded last 01:22 kaeza sapier, that is hacky 01:22 VanessaE or how about you don't redefine nodes if you don't need to? 01:22 kaeza the correct way is to (opt)depend on the mod you want to modify 01:22 sapier yes but if you insist of mods load order defining redefine order exactly this will happen 01:22 VanessaE or just stop bitching about multiple mods trying to redefine nodes/items/etc 01:23 sapier ok lets define only vanessaes mods are allowed to redefine nodes 01:23 VanessaE *facepalm* 01:23 sapier if you allow redefineing exactly this will happen 01:23 VanessaE ALLOW? 01:23 VanessaE IT'S IN THE FUCKING API! 01:24 VanessaE the API explicitly says this is an allowed practice 01:24 sapier i want to modify default x wants to modify default and z too ... what should optdep help? 01:24 VanessaE eh? 01:24 * Kacey hides in the corner from VanessaE's coming rage 01:24 kaeza sapier, VanessaE redefines mesecons stuff in homedecor... seen any problems? 01:25 sapier no cause I don't have homedecor nor mesecons because of having to many undefinded items in game 01:25 * VanessaE hands sapier some punctuation 01:25 sapier still I think the only thing we are same oppinion is that we aren't same opinion 01:26 sapier and I don't expect this to change 01:26 VanessaE no one else has problems with it either, because I'm not so stupid as to blindly redefine something without a damn good reason 01:26 kaeza sapier, maybe because most of us aren't interested in converting minetest into fort knox? 01:26 sapier you said you're realistic not long ago ... i don't expect you to redefine but it'll happen for sure 01:27 VanessaE (I "redefine" mesecons silicon only if it isn't already defined - so that my mod retains cross-compatibility with mesecons items that need silicon.) 01:27 sapier yes I knew this argument coming again ... think about something new 01:27 sapier meant kaeza 01:28 sapier I think our primary goal is making install of mods more easy 01:29 kaeza and removing the name check will help this a lot 01:29 sapier i don't deny the name problem but imho the whole mod install process is so complicatid fixing one single small issue won't help significantly 01:30 kaeza (not the name check, but the modname-foldername correspondence) 01:30 sapier I won't tell again why this is same as removing name check 01:30 Warr10241 if you want to make mod install easier, but don't think the core devs will merge in your mod interface into the game, then you could make a *standalone* tool and distribute it separately. 01:30 sapier there are already numerous standalone tools 01:31 Warr10241 what's wrong with them? 01:31 sapier no one uses them 01:31 Warr10241 anything you can wrap around your mod like an installer? 01:31 kaeza and they are cumbersome 01:31 kaeza (read: use external tools like Python) 01:31 Warr10241 yeah, portability will be a problem. 01:32 sapier the only sane way of adding a commonly used mod installer is adding it to core 01:32 Warr10241 I'm actually surprised to hear about people having mod install problems on Linux. 01:32 sapier I assume most ppl having problems are windows 01:32 kaeza Warr10241, again, it's because the newcomer does not know about the foldername=modname check 01:32 Warr10241 if that's the case, then portability is less of a problem... 01:32 sapier but as of ubuntu even in linux world there are plain users 01:32 VanessaE installing a mod is not complicated, but it can be made simpler by not demanding every other user out there rename his or her mods. 01:33 sapier vanessae just ask some ppl not working with computers for 20 years 01:33 VanessaE sapier: within one year of receiving my first ever computer, I taught myself how to code, what a CPU is, what TTL is, how to interface to the outside world, ... if I could do that when I was only 12, so can others. 01:34 Warr10241 VanessaE: sadly, it seems that those others are few... 01:34 VanessaE but until people get their heads out of their asses, we should try to make it a little easier, but without dumbing the process own too far. 01:34 sapier I'm glad you're a smart person ... but there a lot of ppl out there not willing to become computer experts 01:34 sapier but they still are interested in playing 01:35 VanessaE sapier: then they need to at LEAST learn what a folder is, how to use a file manager, etc. 01:35 Warr10241 those non-smart people need a smart friend :-) 01:35 sapier file managers are relicts of a dieing computer world 01:35 VanessaE but since they won't, we have to help try 01:35 VanessaE a dying relic? 01:35 VanessaE um, so why does every OS come with at least one? 01:36 kaeza one thing is true: this "software" is used for amusement. users don't want to waddle through 40 page posts or topics or wikis when they want to play right now 01:36 Warr10241 got one on my android tablet, had 2 on my phone... 01:36 sapier I haven't seen a classic file manager in android or ios 01:36 VanessaE sapier: obviously you didn't look hard enough, see above. 01:36 VanessaE hmmmm: sit still, dammit :) 01:36 sapier ok show me root folder with your android file manager 01:36 kaeza I love his username 01:36 Warr10241 Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 comes with a file manager built in. 01:37 sapier with full file system access? 01:37 Warr10241 it start you out in /sdcard, but you can chdir .. up to root 01:37 Warr10241 of course, you aren't the root USER, but then again, I'm not root on any of my other machines either, in general... 01:37 sapier wow how often will users do that? 01:37 Warr10241 They generally won't need ot 01:37 Warr10241 since if they're installing minetest, they'd probably put it in /sdcard :-) 01:38 sapier yes most likely the won't even use the filemanager at all 01:38 Warr10241 not at all... unless you, say, download a file in the browser or something. 01:38 sapier whats it's us either? pictures are viewed by special apps 01:38 ShadowNinja sapier: I use root browser. 01:38 sapier apps are installed by appstore 01:38 sapier docs are saved in cloud 01:38 Warr10241 appstore doesn't have minetest in it 01:38 sapier so why use a file manager? 01:38 Warr10241 problem solved :-) 01:39 sapier mintest is to complicated and won't be installed by anyone ;-) problem completely solved 01:39 kaeza minetest is too 01:40 kaeza that was the original point of this conversation 01:40 sapier still my suggestion is adding a mod installer to core that one could fix any folder rename problems too 01:40 kaeza have fun writing :) 01:40 sapier I assume this wouldn't be no more than 2 days of work 01:41 sapier + about 1 week of rebasinging until giving up to get it merged 01:41 VanessaE sapier: two days to code it, and six months to get it merged maybe :) 01:41 sapier as I said 1 week of rebasing 01:42 sapier I already spent more time for scriptapi fix rebasing than for implementing it 01:43 sapier yes it's a big change and yes not everyone understands why this needs to be done ... still it'd be a step in right direction 01:44 kaeza I like the part about removing the env: thing 01:44 sapier yes but I assume it's already outdated again .... and as no one even realized add_item was missing I can be next to sure noone tested it 01:45 sapier adding a change that big while noone is interested in testing is quite risky 01:46 Warr10241 wish I could offer to help with the testing, but I've already automated mod installation with perl scripts :-) 01:46 sapier scriptapi split isn't about installing mods 01:46 Warr10241 sorry, I must have missed a topic switch then. 01:46 VanessaE sapier: regarding your split, actually c55 and others want to merge it, enough so that they're withholding other stuff until it goes in 01:47 VanessaE not sure why they're waiting 01:47 sapier test would be using any function available via lua ... 100% coverage is quite difficult 01:47 sapier yes I've been told so about 3 weeks ago if I remember correctly that's why I rebased it 01:48 VanessaE so finish rebasing it and bug the shit out of the core devs? 01:48 sapier but I assume I would have to rebase it again as within those weeks some other things have been added that might conflict 01:48 VanessaE afaik, they've been avoiding major changes to the scriptapi stuff so as not to conflict with your code 01:48 sapier rebasing is finished for about 3 weeks now 01:49 sapier but as I said I can't test any single function and variant on my own scriptapi has to much functions by now 01:50 VanessaE then just test what you can, whatever obviously might be affected 01:50 VanessaE anything near the boundaries of the various splits I'd say 01:50 sapier anything could be affected ;-) most critical part is env as it's completely changed but some other things too 01:50 VanessaE or just download my game and play around with it for a few days. 01:50 VanessaE if you find no errors there, then your split worked. 01:51 sapier I don't think you use everything too vanessae 01:51 VanessaE no, but among all the mods in my game, enough functions are surely being used that it'll be a fair test 01:52 sapier and I already testet lots of mods but still there's no guarantee 01:53 VanessaE Try anyway. Not all mods in it are up-to-date, but most are. 01:53 VanessaE 50MB download: http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/VanessaE_Game.tar.bz2 01:54 sapier I've got some other things to do too ;-) so I won't be able to run around for days 01:54 VanessaE (anything in there that's a github-based mod is a git clone, so you may be able to 'pull') 01:55 VanessaE ..as needed to bring in further updates). 01:55 sapier github mods 01:55 VanessaE yup 01:55 sapier :-/ I hate those crazy bleeding edge stuff 01:55 VanessaE but all are properly-named. 01:56 VanessaE bleeding edge? well, most are stable, afaik. 01:57 sapier I've been trying to setup a set of mods working on my 0.4.6 test server last weeks it's anoying to find out which mods are compatible to 0.4.6 ... while others aren't compatible to latest dev 01:57 VanessaE just run the latest dev, it's not like it's any less stable than 0.4.6 01:58 sapier its quite more stable because 0.4.6 is crap ... someone denied to add all those memory leak errors 01:58 * VanessaE looks at the latest overview map of her server. There are just WAY too many dandelions and cotton here. someone fix the flowers abm damn it 01:58 sapier still I release mods for stable versions to allow windows users to use them too ... so I have to focus on latest stable version 01:59 sapier yes waterlillies are there way to often too 01:59 VanessaE no, waterlilies are spawned at the density I wanted them to be at 01:59 VanessaE all flowers are generated by the version of flowers mod that's bundled with common (so not under my control) 01:59 sapier looks really strange if you're at same place for some time ... way too ... hmmm regular 02:00 VanessaE sapier: your copy of plantlife is too old then. I fixed that bug ages ago. 02:00 sapier I've used latest from about 2 or 3 weeks ago 02:00 VanessaE then your map is too old ;) 02:00 VanessaE waterlilies are nicely randomized now. 02:00 VanessaE http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/images/VanessaE_World_Map.png 02:00 VanessaE see all the green dots in the water? 02:01 sapier no I don't say they're not random on small scale but on large scale they're regular again 02:01 VanessaE those are bodies of water that have sand or dirt and which are no more than ~2 or 3 nodes deep 02:02 sapier yes and in those areas waterlillies are quite regular 02:02 VanessaE um, no...those look pretty random to me 02:02 sapier it's just not as I expect waterlilies 02:02 sapier they grow in groups not equaly distributed 02:02 VanessaE it's easy enough to tweak the randomness spread a little more though 02:02 VanessaE they're supposed to grow in groups. 02:03 VanessaE they grow in shallow water only, and only in areas that are defined as "fertile" by the plants_lib mod 02:03 sapier in the version I have there's exactly one waterlilly than some open water then next 02:03 VanessaE your copy is outdated then 02:03 sapier is there a version number in your mod? 02:04 VanessaE I don't use version numbers, just release dates. 02:04 VanessaE most recent commit was 12 days ago; most recent to waterlilies was 2 months ago and that was to fix a 6dfacedir bug 02:04 sapier is the releasedate stored somewhere except folder name? 02:05 sokomine oh? which mods are not compatible to 0.4.6? which ones do care about version at all? many mods just add some nodes and are relatively simple 02:05 VanessaE not afaik but I don't use zips of my own mods, I use my local git repo. That map was generated with the current git of plants_lib and flowers_plus. 02:05 VanessaE sokomine: anything that uses the new hud code 02:05 Warr10241 ha, that's what I'm playing with right now... 02:05 sokomine ah yes, memory leak errors...it seems the version i compiled after i noticed those leaks still had leaks in them 02:06 VanessaE sapier: either you've got an extra, outdated copy somewhere, or you haven't explored enough of your map to notice the spawning pattern :) 02:06 sapier don't get this personal vanessae but this is a release style I really hate, I don't update my server twice a week and have no chance what version is currently installed 02:06 sokomine vanessa: just make dandelions and cottons useful for something so that players want to pick them up :-) 02:06 VanessaE sokomine: dyes. 02:06 VanessaE default dyes makes white and yellow dyes from those two 02:07 sokomine mobf may be a bit special there with depending on version because it does a lot and needs latest versions to do exciting new stuff users (like me) want :-) the average mod is far less complex 02:08 sapier still I hate if I don't have any chance to know what version is installed this is basic for any update mechanism no matter how it's done 02:08 VanessaE sapier: git log is your friend. 02:08 VanessaE that's how you find out the "version" 02:08 sapier my server isn't even connected to internet vanessae 02:08 Warr10241 I'm not much of a fan of release dates either; I prefer commit hashes... 02:08 VanessaE otherwise I guess the zip filename maybe has the commit hash in it? 02:08 VanessaE sapier: you don't need to be online to see the log. 02:09 sapier I don't have a zip filename either after installing 02:09 VanessaE afaik that's pulled from your local copy. 02:09 Warr10241 something like 0.4.6.20130425.2dba8db98da6b would be nice, if a bit verbose :-) 02:09 sokomine are those dyes now in default? 02:09 VanessaE Warr10241: which is why my linux builds of MT have both a commit hash *and* a date :) 02:09 VanessaE sokomine: they're in common, yeah 02:09 sapier ok now I know why that small mods waste so much memory 02:09 VanessaE so whatever games use that. 02:10 sapier git log doesn't help I only see minetest gitlog 02:10 VanessaE sapier: small price to pay to have the entire mod's history at your fingerrips. 02:10 VanessaE sapier: cd into the mod's folder and 'git log' there. 02:10 Warr10241 use git clone --depth or whatever if you don't want to pay that price. 02:10 sapier vanessae I'm just a user of your mod ... it's history isn't of any interest to me ;-) 02:10 sokomine fine :-) the colors are nice to play with. it's about time that there's a way to make colored wool that is not completely absurd (one server has the receipe to cook cactus to get blue...) 02:11 VanessaE sapier: do you have plantlife/flowers or plantlife/flowers_plus? 02:11 sapier still no info ... which is not surprising as I don't even have a .git folder in there 02:11 sokomine sapier: which small mods? and why? 02:11 sapier plantlife 02:11 sokomine ah, ok, git log 02:12 sapier flowers_plus hunglegrass plants_lib poisonivy in there 02:12 VanessaE sapier: reading comprehension FAIL... do you have plantlife/flowers or plantlife/flowers_plus? 02:12 sapier junglegrass 02:12 VanessaE ok 02:12 VanessaE you have flowers_plus. 02:12 VanessaE so that's reasonably up-to-date then 02:12 VanessaE so then you must have an old version of my flowers somewhere too - like Nature Pack maybe? 02:12 VanessaE or I forget who else included a copy of it 02:13 sokomine as to the folder name of mods...that confused me back when i started the game as well. my current solution to the mod problem is to have a minetest/mods/ folder with subfolders like 1-nature 1-building and so on which contain the unzipped versions - and a games/nature/mods which symlinks e.g. minetest/mods/1-nature/animals-strange-name-master-bla 02:13 sapier hmm yes nature is here ... was to lazy to remove it completely after it messed up my world 02:13 sokomine at least for linux that's a very convenient way 02:13 sapier are new nodes compatible to the old ones? 02:13 VanessaE sapier: that's why. Nature Pack has a badly-outdated version of plants_lib in it along with outdated flowers and junglegrass 02:13 VanessaE yes, of course. 02:14 Warr10241 I actually like installing mods via symlink so that the git submodules for the mods don't conflict with the submodule for minetest itself in the git repo I keep my server config in. 02:14 sokomine vanessas mods usually do care about backward compatibility. it may be an issue for a few days sometimes but is usually fixed/solved soon 02:14 sapier plants lib isn't in here I assume I already removed it but maybe flowers alone conflicts 02:14 VanessaE sapier: if you have flowers without plants_lib, you have a BADLY outdated version 02:15 VanessaE flowers sans plants_lib is ironzorg's old one, or perhaps one of my first rewrites of it. 02:15 Warr10241 if you want easy mod installation, frankly I don't know if you can beat "git submodule update --init && make" 02:15 sapier was plants_lib formerly called plants? 02:15 VanessaE sapier: no. 02:15 VanessaE plants_lib is part of the plantlife modpack, which you seem to be mostly up-to-date with 02:15 sokomine init and make? for minetest mods? 02:15 sapier hmm maybe I should use some time to remove that damn nature mod 02:16 VanessaE nature mod, or nature pack? 02:16 sapier pack 02:16 Warr1024 sokomine: I keep my server config in a git repo, and use submodules for minetest itself, and for all teh mods I use. 02:16 VanessaE yep, nuke it 02:16 VanessaE it's no wonder you have troubles :) 02:16 sokomine nature_pack_controlled or other versions of nature are no longer needed 02:16 Warr1024 sokomine: I have a small makefile that sets up the symlinks and rearranges everything :-) 02:16 sapier i realized to late that this was the pack adding infinite growth 02:16 sapier I already removed that part 02:17 sokomine warr: ah. sounds fine :-) 02:17 Menche i keep all my mods packages with my world 02:17 Menche *packaged 02:18 sapier maybe we should think about declaring mods in mod releases deprecated too 02:18 sokomine the mods i use in a world a subject to change. that's also easier done with symlinks. it was a bit problematic for some time, but now with the common folder and game.conf therein, it works very well 02:18 Menche i plan on offering a regularly updated world download at some point 02:18 VanessaE I copy all of my mods from a separate "all of them" folder over to the server, wherein my "game" is built just before it is uploaded. 02:18 Menche keeping the mods in worldmods will make it easier for others to use 02:18 sokomine menche: that would be nice 02:19 Warr1024 git submodules are *generally* safe, since all inited repos will have copies of the dependencies, even though they're not actually in the main repo history. 02:19 Menche is there a way to disable a default mod from within the world? 02:19 Warr1024 it just means that when you spin up an additional backup, you have to init the submodules too. 02:19 Menche a lot of stuff on my server has lava and wood in close proximity 02:19 Menche i have fire removed 02:19 sokomine menche: maybe it would be enough to allow players to download their buildings. i suggested to redcrab something like that...a mod that sends the buildings of a player to the email adress used there to get interact 02:19 Menche i fired up the map backup on another computer... literally 02:20 sokomine menche: urgs 02:20 kaeza Menche, I think there was a new setting in minetest.conf to disable fire 02:20 sokomine menche: if you create a new game and omit fire in that game.conf it ought to work 02:21 Menche can a game be bundled with a world? 02:21 kaeza you could add a mod to the world to set this setting to false no matter what 02:21 kaeza yes 02:21 sokomine yes, games are always bundled with a world. in world.mt the game is mentioned 02:21 kaeza put it in worlddir/game 02:21 Menche so, make the world use a custom gameid, and bundle the game in worldmods? 02:22 kaeza nonono 02:22 Menche just in the root of the world folder? 02:22 kaeza put it in worlddir/game 02:22 sokomine ah, ok, kaeza is suggesting a diffrent approach 02:23 kaeza Menche, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L82 02:23 sokomine for a server, kaezas approach might be better (because then it's really bundled) 02:23 sokomine what i was suggesting is more useful for singleplayer - if you want some worlds with a specific modset and others with another (what mt calls games) 02:26 kaeza rawr, github does not list me as contributor :( 02:26 kaeza (for lua_api.txt) 02:27 kaeza isn't my one-line change good enough? :P 03:05 OldCoder NEWS: I forgot to chmod a directory tree. My worlds should be up again now. 03:05 OldCoder Please try them and let me know 03:11 ShadowNinja PING timeout it seems, any ops around? 03:12 VanessaE someone needs to add auto-op for that bot. 03:12 Menche why do we have 2 bots? 03:12 VanessaE because one can kick/ban flooders, the other doesn't 03:12 ShadowNinja Only celeron55 has +f 03:13 ShadowNinja In fact ShadowBot can do everything that MinetestBot can do, but sfan5 wants to keep it. 03:14 Menche !up minetest.ltmnet.com 03:14 MinetestBot minetest.ltmnet.com:30000 is up (2.850ms) 03:14 Menche so ShadowBot only responds when MinetestBot isn't on? 03:14 ShadowNinja (Well except git commit reporting, that plugin doesn'g support python 3, I will have to write my own. 03:14 ShadowNinja Menche: Yes, unless it is from me. 03:15 ShadowNinja Menche: You can test it out in a PM or a few other channels. 03:16 Menche what differences are there? 03:16 Menche is there a list of supported commands? 03:16 ShadowNinja ShadowBot: list 03:16 ShadowBot ShadowNinja: Admin, Alias, Anonymous, AttackProtector, BadWordKick, BotYield, Brainfuck, Channel, ChannelLogger, ChannelStats, Conditional, Config, Dunno, Games, Google, MassHighlight, MessageParser, Minetest, Misc, Owner, Services, SimpleReply, String, Success, URL, User, Utilities, and Web 03:16 ShadowNinja ShadowBot: list Admin 03:16 ShadowBot ShadowNinja: capability add, capability remove, channels, clearq, ignore add, ignore list, ignore remove, join, nick, and part 03:16 ShadowNinja etc. 03:18 Menche heh, "Google" is colored when I asked for a list via PM 03:19 Menche darn, it ignores when you give 5 commands per minute? 03:19 ShadowNinja Menche: Yes, a nice touch, I found a option to enable that in the config 03:20 ShadowNinja ShadowBot: admin ignore list 03:20 ShadowBot ShadowNinja: 'Rollem!~cinch@c-71-197-240-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net' and '*!*@*.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net' 03:20 messa4 anyone here? 03:20 Menche yeah 03:21 khonkhortisan (the rest of us are hiding) 03:21 * Menche ducks behind his desk 03:21 ShadowNinja ShadowBot: admin ignore remove *!*@*.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net 03:21 ShadowBot ShadowNinja: The operation succeeded. 03:21 messa4 whats the diffrence between [when creating new world]: build, minetest, minimal development test adn survival? 03:21 ShadowNinja Menche: Register with it. 03:21 Menche how? 03:21 khonkhortisan minimal barely has anything in it. It's good for testing, but don't use it for actual gameplay. 03:22 ShadowNinja Menche: /msg ShadowBot help register 03:22 Menche messa4: they're different games; build, minetest, and survival are very similar 03:22 khonkhortisan minetest_game used to be all we had, but it was split into build and creative, with common being whatever isn't different. 03:22 Menche messa4: i personally prefer "build", it has the most stuff 03:22 messa4 whats diffrence between survival and build? 03:22 khonkhortisan You need common, no matter what game you're using on top of it 03:22 Menche in survival, you lose your inventory on death 03:22 khonkhortisan survival is where the mobs would go if we had them by default 03:22 Menche and have to go and get it 03:22 VanessaE khonkhortisan, messa4: ...build and survival will all be merged back into one game (minetest_game) soon. 03:22 ShadowNinja messa4: Very little currently. 03:22 VanessaE and common 03:22 khonkhortisan really? 03:22 messa4 ahh 03:23 Menche survival is also missing a bunch of stuff that is in build 03:23 messa4 ok so its not implemented yet 03:23 khonkhortisan So, I should just keep using minetest_game? 03:23 messa4 thx 03:23 Menche is "safe bones" the only diff between minetest & build? 03:23 VanessaE khonkhortisan: use minetest_game but copy in all of the mods from common that aren't already being loaded 03:23 Menche if so then i'd recommend minetest 03:24 ShadowNinja Menche: No, it has renewable lava. 03:24 Menche oh ok 03:24 messa4 is there any official minetest server? 03:24 khonkhortisan not right now 03:24 VanessaE minetest has lots of servers, there's no one "official" one 03:24 khonkhortisan modders being the main reason for that 03:25 Menche argh, crontab -e on debian uses nano by default 03:25 khonkhortisan If we could mod in-game, servers might not split so much 03:25 khonkhortisan change your default? 03:25 Menche go to servers.minetest.net to see a list 03:25 khonkhortisan I would hope it uses the same editor as git commit 03:26 Menche i just had to set EDITOR to vi, now it uses a sensible editor 03:26 messa4 i wrote my own garbage collector for MT. where to upload it? 03:26 khonkhortisan vi-m 03:26 ShadowNinja Menche: vi? it's vim. 03:26 messa4 just kidding. 03:26 Menche ? 03:26 khonkhortisan it does leak memory 03:27 messa4 vi is not the same like vim. vim is a clone of vi with a lot of additional stuff 03:27 Menche yeah 03:27 Menche haven't installed vim yet 03:27 Menche but plain vi works 03:27 messa4 im using vi on my computer (nvi from bsd ) 03:27 khonkhortisan Well the answer anyway is to fork minetest on github, git clone it locally, commit your changes, push, then make a pull request. 03:27 ShadowNinja A lot better IMO. 03:27 khonkhortisan I've been using vim when I thought I was using vi - it's an alias 03:28 messa4 yeah most modern users are like that 03:28 messa4 try nvi from bsd, elvis, vim - then u can say that u worked with "vi" :) 03:29 ShadowNinja Yes, Arch comes with plaim old vi, I made sure to imstall vim quickly, I had to use nano. 03:29 Menche there are multiple vis? arch linux says it uses the "original" vi 03:29 messa4 "The nex/nvi replacements for the ex/vi editor first appeared in 4.4BSD." 03:29 khonkhortisan there's also wordwarvi 03:29 messa4 Menche: of course that theere are a lot of vi versions 03:29 messa4 but oryginal one [used in this century] came from BSD 4.x 03:30 Menche i prefer vim, for multiple undo, syntax highlighting, autoindent, etc 03:30 messa4 if you are using vi on bsd or linux nowdays and binary size its like 70kb - then u can be quiet suer that u are using nvi 03:31 Menche "du" keeps insisting that `which vi` is 0 03:31 Warr1024 symlink to vim? 03:31 Menche no 03:32 messa4 can u just ls -l vi 03:32 messa4 show us size 03:32 Menche symbolic link to "ex" 03:32 Warr1024 ah 03:32 Warr1024 du only tells you how many blocks used 03:32 Warr1024 if you want total bytes, stat 03:33 messa4 just do ls -s vi 03:33 khonkhortisan stat `which vi` 03:33 Menche "ex" is 228K 03:34 khonkhortisan Is there a programming languages that understands “smart quotes” as "regular quotes"? 03:34 messa4 whats smart quotes? 03:34 Warr1024 mine is 332,424 03:34 messa4 u mean windows like? 03:34 khonkhortisan left/right quotes instead of ambidextrous ones 03:34 messa4 Warr1024: then its propably vim 03:34 Warr1024 OpenBSD 5.2 amd64 03:35 messa4 Warr1024: 332kb for nvi?! 03:35 khonkhortisan My sentence had all three quotes in it 03:35 Menche type ":syn enable", that will only work in vim 03:35 messa4 khonkhortisan: they are not even displayed properly on my terminal 03:35 Warr1024 what's it normally? 03:35 Warr1024 the syn command is unknown. 03:35 khonkhortisan My terminal displays them fine, I have my irc font so small I barely see a difference 03:36 khonkhortisan I use urxvt 03:36 Menche my vim binary is 2.4M 03:36 messa4 Warr1024: 03:36 Warr1024 ? 03:36 messa4 my nvi is 32640 bytes. 32k 03:36 VanessaE messa4: http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/extra/Screenshot%20-%2005082013%20-%2011:35:50%20PM.png 03:36 messa4 netbsd x64 03:36 VanessaE that's how they look when rendered properly. 03:37 messa4 vanesas: 03:37 Warr1024 /usr/bin/vi: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1, for OpenBSD, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), stripped 03:37 Warr1024 yeah, it's 325kb, the only thing I can think of is that it must be some kind of busybox packed binary or something 03:37 Warr1024 nlinks is 3. 03:37 messa4 its impossible. most [except maybe IBM mainframe os/360 programs] expect source code to be in US ASCII for compatiblity reasons 03:38 messa4 now if u will start using some fancy characters - it would be pain to work with such source code with chinese and israeli and smart quotes signs 03:38 khonkhortisan which vi → /usr/bin/vi → /bin/vim → /etc/alternatives/vim → /bin/vim-normal: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.16, BuildID[sha1]=0x1ae954af3f851fd6a65f868e809135cca0a98893, stripped 03:38 messa4 and not all compilers are using utf-8 03:38 VanessaE messa4: actually these days UTF-8 is fairly widely-accepted. 03:38 VanessaE still, I hate those G*d damned 'smart' quotes :) 03:38 messa4 still. no compilers will accept smart quote vs normal quote 03:39 Warr1024 yeah, they show up as ?smart quotes? on my screen. 03:39 khonkhortisan They are a real character, a use should be made for them 03:39 messa4 it totally diffrent character for compiler - even if visially similar 03:39 messa4 its* visually* 03:39 khonkhortisan I hate replacement characters! It should show as a box with four hexidecimal characters, so you at least can find it. 03:39 VanessaE I'm sure a preprocessor step could be added to translate them into 'real' quotes though 03:40 Menche a #define? 03:40 khonkhortisan ooh 03:40 khonkhortisan people would hate my code if I did that 03:40 messa4 just dont do it. 03:40 khonkhortisan :) 03:40 messa4 it would create shitload of problems. unforseen 03:40 khonkhortisan wouldn't be that hard to undo, mass find/replace 03:41 messa4 imagine if every program would use diffrent character instead quote. jewish star, cross, heart , smily face etc - crazy 03:41 messa4 programmer* 03:41 messa4 BUT 03:41 messa4 i think 03:41 khonkhortisan I don't like ascii, other people languages can't use it 03:42 VanessaE CHALLENGE ACCEPTED. 03:42 messa4 that it would be possible and quite easy to force vim to display normal quotes AS "smart quotes" 03:42 messa4 khonkhortisan: are u kidding now? 03:42 messa4 khonkhortisan: ascii is the MOST universal text format ever. 03:42 messa4 then utf-8 03:43 khonkhortisan "Don't redefine your quotes in header files. That only goes in source files." 03:43 khonkhortisan but it's so small 03:44 messa4 it needs to be. compatiblity and simplicity :) 03:44 hmmmm why would anybody use openbsd 03:44 khonkhortisan it's more open than bsd 03:44 VanessaE hmmmm: why would anyone use windows? :) 03:44 messa4 before ASCII every single computer had multiple encoding systems - not compatible or anything . ASCII changed it. and maked it all much much much more easier 03:44 hmmmm because it's bundled with just about every computer 03:44 VanessaE heh 03:44 Warr1024 openbsd was bundled on this one 03:45 khonkhortisan Yet, we still use different line endings and a keyboard layout that prevents mechanical jamming. 03:45 Warr1024 at least, after I bundled it myself after removing the factory debian install :-) 03:45 VanessaE khonkhortisan: that theory has been somewhat debunked. 03:45 messa4 khonkhortisan: nothing stops u from using dvorak keyboard today :) 03:45 khonkhortisan I use a variant of it 03:45 messa4 i know few ppl who do that 03:46 khonkhortisan but it annoys me when I find a game with wasd controls and no way to change them 03:46 messa4 khonkhortisan: dvorak is just about layout or its using non ascii characters too? 03:46 VanessaE messa4: pah. I tried using a swedish keyboard once (a friend's laptop he'd brought to a geek con). The only differences there were two or three keys that were moved around...and even THAT was a bitch to use :) 03:46 khonkhortisan just layout. I use a compose key for the special stuff 03:46 BrandonReese I started using dvorak but I didn't have time to practice dvorak until I could type as fast as I can using qwerty 03:47 khonkhortisan you must be busy :P 03:47 messa4 VanessaE: tell me about it. I was living in poland, swizerland, and uk in past few years - every single of them are using diffrent layout of keyboard [even for stuff like ! @ $ etc]. it is PAIN to use it. thats why im using ONLY classical US-ASCII keyboard layout wherever i can :) 03:47 messa4 too much pain and time wasted 03:47 VanessaE hehe 03:47 VanessaE and this was just a few mundane keys like / and @, and I think z also 03:48 khonkhortisan I swapped caps lock and escape. 03:48 messa4 now imagine that u are in corpo enviroment and u cant swap keys :D 03:48 messa4 HELL 03:48 VanessaE ick. 03:48 messa4 and u spend 5 minutes to find "@" character :) 03:48 khonkhortisan "I blocked the terminal because it was a security risk" 03:48 Warr1024 you only need 11 keys, really 03:48 VanessaE khonkhortisan: I rip that fucking thing off every keyboard I get 03:48 Warr1024 the numpad and ALT 03:49 VanessaE CAPS LOCK SHOULD BURN IN HELL. 03:49 khonkhortisan don't do that! You can swap it out for a useful key! 03:49 messa4 heh 03:49 messa4 anyway. for me its US-programmer keyboard for life 03:49 khonkhortisan I still haven't gotten alt keys to work the same way on a non-windows 03:49 messa4 standard us-ascii one 03:49 Warr1024 I wish US keyboard were standard-ish, at least 03:50 messa4 they are 03:50 Warr1024 like, why can't they all have the good \ and backspace arrangement? 03:50 messa4 warr: thats just physical layout 03:50 Warr1024 that's enough to be annoying 03:51 messa4 why? 03:51 Menche i use ALT as the modifier for my wm controls, using a mac keyboard that has command there is really annoying 03:51 messa4 its standard since like 80" 03:51 messa4 Menche: like for emacs? 03:51 Menche for my window manager 03:51 Warr1024 besides, everyone knows that alt isn't alt, it's meta. 03:51 messa4 then u are right. emacs was designed for TOTALLY diffrent keyboard layout then modern IBM keyboards popular since 80" 03:51 * khonkhortisan knew that 03:51 Warr1024 :-) 03:52 messa4 i once saw this keyboard and it makes sense - emacs was easier to use on it [no pain in pinky finger] 03:52 khonkhortisan but I forgot why I knew that - emacs? enlightenment? 04:45 VanessaE wtf? my 512px pack works again? what un-broke this time? ;) 04:45 khonkhortisan we may never know... 04:48 messa4 btw. does anyone here played Wurm game? 04:49 * Menche just remembered he forgot to back up his server's player data 04:49 Menche oh dear 04:49 VanessaE uh oh 04:50 ShadowNinja !up 67.241.154.164 04:50 ShadowBot ShadowNinja: 67.241.154.164:30000 seems to be down 04:50 MinetestBot 67.241.154.164:30000 is up (0.222ms) 04:50 ShadowNinja What? 04:50 khonkhortisan it can only handle one bot request at a time 04:50 * Menche isn't doing too well today, forgot to remove the fire mod 04:50 ShadowNinja Can someone test my server, it is back up. 04:51 ShadowNinja Menche: disable_fire=true 04:51 VanessaE ShadowNinja: it seems to be working. 04:52 ShadowNinja khonkhortisan: Most likely something broke in the 2 to 3 conversion. 04:52 VanessaE waiting for media.. 04:52 VanessaE and there it is. 04:52 ShadowNinja OK, good. 04:52 VanessaE couple of unknown blocks near me 04:52 khonkhortisan conversion of what? 04:53 khonkhortisan HAHAHA 04:53 khonkhortisan > bin/minetest 67.241.154.164 04:53 ShadowNinja VanessaE: Near what? How many? 04:53 VanessaE two of them, under the spawn platform 04:53 khonkhortisan One of the items in the Singleplayer world list: 04:53 khonkhortisan [--world parameter] {new] {minetest] 04:53 VanessaE look in your log, I just punched one of them 04:54 ShadowNinja Hmmm, I don't know what that is. 04:54 VanessaE btw, where did you get these steel fences? 04:54 ShadowNinja Oh, a mod I rmed because I didn't feel like fixing a bug in it. 04:55 khonkhortisan http://postimg.org/image/6di7cte9n/ 04:55 messa4 any jews here/ 04:55 messa4 ? 04:55 ShadowNinja Custom mod, modified xfences. 04:55 VanessaE messa4: why? 04:55 VanessaE ShadowNinja: you should release it, they're kinda nice 04:55 Menche now, to get my server announcing again 04:55 messa4 VanessaE: u jewish? 04:56 ssieb VanessaE: after seeing your map image, I'm curious to look at your server :-) 04:56 VanessaE yes, why? 04:56 messa4 VanessaE: shalom. do u know any irc channel with a lot of jewish ppl? 04:56 VanessaE ShadowNinja: shit, something over here just caught fire 04:56 khonkhortisan Someone please run "minetest localhost" from their command line and tell me what the singleplayer Select World list looks like 04:56 VanessaE messa4: no, sorry 04:56 ssieb it's funny how obvious the mapgen glitches are at that level 04:56 messa4 :( 04:56 messa4 hard to make jewish friends 04:56 messa4 no jews on irc 04:57 VanessaE ShadowNinja: looks like some griefing over here where I'm at, {-5.9,3.5,-79.1} 04:57 VanessaE messa4: I don't generally bring it up is all, not usually on-topic for most chat's I'm ever a part of :) 04:57 VanessaE ShadowNinja: server just shut down on me. 04:57 khonkhortisan You mentioned the native form of kosher once 04:58 VanessaE khonkhortisan: it was probably on-topic for the chat :) 04:58 khonkhortisan kashrut 04:58 messa4 btw. i love minetest 04:58 ShadowNinja VanessaE: The fire should be fixed 04:58 messa4 usually i hate open source games [not polished and lacking] but minetest is diffrent 04:58 VanessaE khonkhortisan: that's the name of the set of dietary guidelines as a whole. to keep kosher is to follow those guidelines. 04:59 ShadowNinja Lemme restore the map. 04:59 VanessaE ShadowNinja: there's lava here. 04:59 VanessaE looks like someone was fuckign around with lavacooling. 04:59 ShadowNinja Yes, I know. 04:59 ShadowNinja Where? 05:00 khonkhortisan Lavacooling should turn into something other than stone by default, to difficult to get rid of otherwise 05:00 VanessaE inside a building at -11,7,-78 05:00 messa4 is it possible to create buildings for minetest without game? [in text editor or something] 05:00 VanessaE messa4: sorta, if you can grok the Worldedit file format. 05:00 VanessaE it's plaintext 05:00 ShadowNinja Well unless the fire did very little damage I will restore the map. 05:01 VanessaE it destroyed the floor here I think. 05:01 khonkhortisan I can't delete the [--world parameter] [new] [minetest] world 05:01 ShadowNinja OK, shutdown I guess. 05:03 messa4 guys: please implement monters, animals adn farming today ok? so i can download today 05:03 messa4 thx 05:03 VanessaE messa4: you can download a mod to get that stuff if you want it 05:03 messa4 u work and i will go to play 05:03 messa4 i know just kidding. cant wait until all good stuff will be included as default 05:04 ShadowNinja VanessaE: Map restored. 05:04 VanessaE checking it 05:04 VanessaE ShadowNinja: do you use rollback protection? 05:04 ShadowNinja Yes. 05:05 VanessaE wow, good thing you disabled fire. the lava is still here, but the floor is intact now (looks like brown wool) 05:05 ShadowNinja Just a setting thanks to my commit :-) 05:06 messa4 it would be cool to have "slaves mod" 05:06 messa4 u create plan in editor 05:06 messa4 and they u realease slaves to build it 05:06 messa4 then u need to feed them 05:06 messa4 and make them shelter 05:07 messa4 like in good old days 05:07 messa4 of 1100 05:07 VanessaE ShadowNinja: sizable building here made entirely out of unknown blocks plus some lava columnds, {-11,6,-99} 05:07 VanessaE -d 05:07 ShadowNinja Yes, same mod. 05:08 VanessaE shit, they're all over the place 05:08 ShadowNinja I tried running the server as a restricted user, permissions are being difficult. 05:08 VanessaE huge one over here next to the clipper ship 05:09 ShadowNinja Yep, my bedrock mod. Built by tret. 05:09 VanessaE I run my server as an unprivileged user also 05:09 khonkhortisan haha who moved clouds to the loading menu? 05:10 VanessaE khonkhortisan: zeg9 did 05:10 khonkhortisan it looks good 05:11 ShadowNinja VanessaE: How do you keep things sorted? 05:11 VanessaE ShadowNinja: a script, proper group permissions, and gratuitous use of sudo therein :) 05:12 VanessaE user minetest, group minetest, put myself in that group, and use sudo where that isn't enough 05:12 ShadowNinja Hmmm, I will have to chmod g+w 05:13 VanessaE I always use numbers, 664 and 775 in particular 05:13 messa4 btw 05:13 messa4 does anyone here have some old pc? [486 etc] 05:13 messa4 i wonder if ucan run tiny map of mt on it 05:13 VanessaE messa4: I have a commodore 128..does that count? ;) 05:13 messa4 no 05:13 VanessaE no, a 486 can't run MT I don't think. 05:14 messa4 it would be cool to check how low we can go 05:14 messa4 does mt support pure software renereer? and is it fast [like in quake 2?] or its just emulating 3d and its dead slow? 05:14 messa4 renderer* 05:14 VanessaE it does, but it's slow 05:15 messa4 ok :( 05:15 messa4 old games had native huge speed software renderers 05:15 messa4 half life, quake 2 etc 05:15 VanessaE anything that's pure software, by definition, is emulating 3d 05:15 VanessaE but then old games had hardware-specific renderers 05:15 ssieb on Fedora, minetest is setup with its own user and systemd unit files 05:16 messa4 thats crazy 05:16 messa4 creating whole account for single application? :) 05:16 ssieb why, that's pretty standard 05:16 messa4 unless u planning running server heh 05:16 ssieb that's what it's for! 05:16 messa4 its not standard for desktop solution. for server: sure 05:17 ssieb that's why it has systemd unit files too 05:17 VanessaE ShadowNinja: tip, use wrought iron fenceposts (rather than poles) when placing signs, they'll attach properly then. 05:17 VanessaE (I haven't gotten around to adding signs-on-poles yet) 05:18 ShadowNinja VanessaE: I am not the greatest builder, somone elses poles. ;-) 05:18 VanessaE I'm fixing 'em :) 05:20 Menche how do you disable fire? 05:20 VanessaE delete the fire mod 05:20 VanessaE ShadowNinja: your copy of travelnet mod is slightly outdated btw 05:21 ShadowNinja Menche: disable_fire=true 05:21 VanessaE or do that :) 05:22 ShadowNinja I will update once I get privs and files sorted. 05:22 messa4 can tree grow on desert sand? 05:22 VanessaE dunno 05:23 ShadowNinja messa4: No. 05:23 Menche oh, fire was disabled, the existing fire just had to go out 05:23 Menche well, my server is quite a mess 05:24 ShadowNinja Yes, I didn't add anything fancy like a ABM to remove them, just the normal ABM. 05:27 VanessaE ShadowNinja: you use luacontrollers here? is that safe? 05:27 messa4 thx 05:30 ShadowNinja VanessaE: Yes, functions, loops, etc, are disabled. 05:30 ShadowNinja (And I love their usefulness) 05:30 messa4 btw 05:30 messa4 project is done in c++ and lua? 05:31 ShadowNinja Command blocks not so safe but I don't feel like modifying my copy(feature request, a setting) 05:32 VanessaE what, no screwdriver!? *grumble* 05:32 VanessaE :) 05:35 VanessaE jeez, lots of little bits of griefing here and there. 05:39 ShadowNinja VanessaE: I switched to minetest_game for now, you can repair greifing, and what was that script you use? 05:39 VanessaE I'm working on the griefing and also a little build-out here and there where it looks like it was wanted. 05:39 VanessaE I'll post the script in a few mins, but it's one I wrote for the purpose. 05:40 VanessaE mainly it just copies mods around, deletes a few things, and packages it all up for distribution on my website 05:40 ShadowNinja I fixed the bedrock mod btw(I think) 05:41 ShadowNinja But I have to test before I push. 05:42 ShadowNinja Is there a way to set the default mode for new files? 05:42 VanessaE I think the umode command does that 05:42 VanessaE been a while since I last used it though 05:46 VanessaE ok, that's enough of that for now 05:51 VanessaE http://apache.slashdot.org/story/13/05/09/003236/backdoor-targeting-apache-servers-spreads-to-nginx-lighttpd 05:51 VanessaE oh real nice. 05:51 VanessaE guess I should be glad I didn't bother to set up nginx for cache use :) 05:53 ShadowNinja Hmmm, I havn't set up nginx yet. 06:40 ssieb they have to break into your server first before they modify the web server 06:55 * VanessaE pokes kaeza, just because. 06:55 * kaeza puts http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=89117#p89117 on VanessaE's head :3 06:55 * VanessaE throws the spam in the trash 06:56 * kaeza is bored 06:56 * kaeza may actually play on VanessaE's server tonight 06:56 VanessaE have fun :) 06:56 VanessaE (barely anyone plays there anymore, no clue why) 06:57 kaeza too many servers being created 06:57 VanessaE I guess so 06:58 sfan5 good moring 06:58 sfan5 +n 06:58 kaeza have you considered taking the word of our lord Survival into your heart? 06:58 VanessaE mornin' 06:58 kaeza :P 06:58 kaeza morning sfan5 06:59 VanessaE Fuck survival, I wanna build something.™ 06:59 VanessaE :) 06:59 kaeza :( 06:59 * sfan5 had a dream about Microsoft creating a _low cost_ ARM tablet with XP 07:00 VanessaE sfan5: some dream :) 07:01 * kaeza wants this instead: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLYSch_Mi58 07:01 VanessaE heh 07:02 kaeza my floor is still there :D 07:02 VanessaE if he was REALLY crafty, he'd make it run SNES games ;) 07:03 VanessaE oh wait 07:03 VanessaE neat 07:04 VanessaE kaeza: what floor? 07:04 kaeza in your server 07:04 VanessaE heh, I don't remember where you were building last :) 07:05 kaeza and I don't remember where did I put my music box :( 07:06 VanessaE you mean the orange one from the old server? 07:06 kaeza yep 07:06 kaeza (desert stone) 07:06 VanessaE I never imported it. 07:06 VanessaE gimme a few and I'll copy it in 07:06 kaeza :(((((( 07:06 kaeza np, I'm gonna build it bigger this time 07:07 VanessaE you don't want the old one? 07:08 VanessaE ah, found it 07:08 kaeza don't worry about that 07:08 VanessaE aw, I was about to save it 07:09 kaeza well, if you want to, I don't mind :) 07:11 ShadowNinja My server management script and !up updated to python 3. 07:12 ShadowNinja ShadowBot: up 0gb.us 07:12 ShadowBot ShadowNinja: 0gb.us:30000 is up (0.326ms) 07:12 ShadowNinja (socket now uses a bytes object) 07:17 sfan5 !up 0gb.us 07:17 MinetestBot 0gb.us:30000 is up (0.416ms) 07:20 ShadowNinja sfan5: Will MinetestBot use python 3? 07:20 sfan5 not yet 07:21 sfan5 but it may be able to 07:22 ShadowNinja I had to give up commit reporting, I will have to write my own plugin for it now. 07:38 kaeza stupid modem 07:38 VanessaE shit happens :) 07:38 VanessaE sign in so I can make you owner of your land :) 07:38 kaeza k 07:38 VanessaE there we go 07:39 ssieb what do you use for ownership? 07:39 VanessaE node_ownership 07:39 VanessaE my fork with admin override of course :) 07:39 * ssieb looks it up 07:39 kaeza grief on a creative server *genius* 07:40 VanessaE yep, people actually do oit 07:40 VanessaE i 07:40 VanessaE it 07:40 VanessaE shadow's server, too. 07:40 Calinou hi 07:40 kaeza I seriously don't understand what's the fun 07:40 kaeza speaking of griefers 07:40 kaeza o hai Calinou 07:40 Calinou better, claim server to be hardcore but disallow griefing 07:41 * Calinou was recently victim of that :< 07:43 * kaeza does not understand why they added the 'fov' variable 07:44 kaeza you cannot set it programatically per-client, and doing /set fov x requires admin privs :| 07:57 ShadowNinja ops: restarting ShadowBot, ready for re-op? 07:59 sfan5 ShadowNinja: MinetestBot is always ready 07:59 ShadowNinja ShadowBot: quit 08:00 sfan5 !op ShadowBot 08:00 sfan5 damnit 08:00 VanessaE ninja'd again :D 08:00 ShadowNinja lol 08:00 VanessaE (insert random chop-socky cries here) 08:01 sfan5 !g google 08:01 MinetestBot sfan5: http://www.google.com/ 08:01 ShadowNinja sfan5: Can you add me to MinetestBot's op list so I can do it myself? 08:01 VanessaE or just give auto-op directly from Minetestbot -> ShadowBot 08:02 sfan5 ShadowNinja: gimme a hostmask that matches to JUST you 08:03 ShadowNinja sfan5: /whois ShadowNinja, I have a cloak so changing IPs isn't an issue and I have to auth with NickServ to get it. 08:03 sfan5 k 08:04 sfan5 so *!*@unaffiliated/shadowninja does it? 08:04 ShadowNinja Yes 08:04 sfan5 VanessaE: do you want admin rights for MinetestBot too? 08:04 VanessaE naw, don't need it 08:04 VanessaE I make a shitty admin anyway :) 08:05 * ShadowBot wakes up 08:06 sfan5 ,,(op sfan5) 08:06 * ShadowBot sleeps 08:06 sfan5 ,,(op MinetestBot) 08:06 sfan5 :/ 08:06 sfan5 ShadowNinja: try any of the admin commands listed here: 08:06 sfan5 !help 08:06 MinetestBot https://github.com/sfan5/minetestbot-modules/blob/master/COMMANDS.md 08:06 sfan5 ^ 08:06 messa4 hello 08:07 sfan5 hi messa4 08:07 messa4 is it possible to make minecraft made from balls instead squares? 08:07 messa4 with gravity dynamics - ball rolling around. kinda neat idea 08:07 VanessaE minecraft? 08:07 VanessaE er 08:07 messa4 minetest* 08:07 sfan5 umm.. this is the minetest channel 08:07 messa4 :) 08:07 sfan5 .. 08:07 messa4 i know 08:07 sfan5 yes 08:07 sfan5 but you'd need to do some work to achieve that 08:08 VanessaE you mean something like the old classic 80's Marble Madness? 08:08 messa4 sfan5: and is it easy to make default square lets say 10x smaller by default? 08:08 messa4 VanessaE: exactly :) 08:08 messa4 marbles 08:08 VanessaE that's impossible though 08:08 sfan5 messa4: i don't think it would be too easy 08:08 VanessaE (the 10:1 scale blocks) 08:08 messa4 why impossible? 08:09 VanessaE the engine is simply not set up for that 08:09 messa4 becasue of memory usage or what? 08:09 messa4 just make my character 10x bigger 08:09 VanessaE because it was set up to make the blocks 1m cubed :) 08:09 sfan5 !uuencode MinetestBot 08:09 MinetestBot +36EN971E thick ones? the code that you had before is still there, commented out, but I didn't wanna screw with it 09:51 * PilzAdam doesnt lik eht enew loading screen 09:51 PilzAdam why turns it black at the beginning? 09:51 PilzAdam Zeg9 ^ 09:51 Zeg9 It turns black because of another loading screen before it 09:55 VanessaE Zeg9: you should let the clouds continue to animate while the media is being loaded. 09:55 whirm VanessaE: I agree 09:55 VanessaE (or the render-to-texture step if that's where it's happening) 09:56 iqualfragile wel… it does continue to animate 09:56 iqualfragile but it stops from time to time 09:56 PilzAdam Zeg9, isnt it possible to have the clouds all the time? 09:56 iqualfragile *well 09:56 smoke_fumus VanessaE: 3d object below media? does irchit has such capability? last thing which were able to dynamically load in background, not interrupting other scene were unreal engine 09:57 VanessaE smoke_fumus: I don't know whether it's possible or not, but these are just clouds, so I don't see why it wouldn't be. 09:57 sfan5 VanessaE: you can't render clouds while you render to texture 09:57 VanessaE (it's not like he's trying to render the world) 09:57 smoke_fumus what if you render static image of clouds? 09:57 sfan5 VanessaE: the part of the screen that is used to render-to-texture can't be used for clouds 09:57 sfan5 smoke_fumus: no, moving clouds 09:58 VanessaE sfan5: in my particular situation, render-to-texture is not displayed on the screen. 09:58 VanessaE all I ever see is the clouds and the progress bar. 09:58 sfan5 VanessaE: render to texture is done after loading media 09:58 VanessaE sfan5: I know that. 09:58 PilzAdam VanessaE, currently the clouds just freeze if the inventory textures are rendered 09:59 VanessaE but the progress bar remains on-screen during that step. 09:59 PilzAdam wich is reasonable 09:59 VanessaE PilzAdam: yes I know. I was suggesting that this should not be the case. 09:59 PilzAdam (better than black screen) 09:59 VanessaE additional progress information is needed here. 09:59 sfan5 on my machine the render-to-texture thing is displayed sometimes 09:59 smoke_fumus this is lame copout 09:59 smoke_fumus create stand-alone draw call for gui 09:59 smoke_fumus one which will not interrupt clouds and whatnot 10:00 smoke_fumus john_minetest: dude, don't help an asshole 10:00 Zeg9 VanessaE, they should animate while it's downloading 10:00 PilzAdam VanessaE, I was talking about the black screen in the "Resolving adress" and "Connecting to Server" steps 10:00 VanessaE PilzAdam: I wasn't. :) 10:00 VanessaE however those steps also need the clouds screen too 10:00 smoke_fumus PilzAdam: VanessaE: just add another layer with stand-alone drawcall >.> 10:00 VanessaE (also..too? grammar FAIL) 10:01 smoke_fumus john_minetest: he is muted xD 10:01 Zeg9 PilzAdam, it isn't really possible to do these screens, or it would require a static/global "menuclouds" variable 10:01 smoke_fumus oh okay. 10:01 Zeg9 It is possible to make a blue background during that screens, though 10:02 PilzAdam and what hinders you from doing the static variable? 10:02 Zeg9 I'm unsure where to store it 10:02 PilzAdam in main 10:03 Zeg9 yeah but loading screen is in game.cpp 10:03 PilzAdam game.cpp includes main.h 10:03 Zeg9 Okay then 10:03 Zeg9 So clouds should be there for *all* loading screens? 10:03 VanessaE yup 10:03 PilzAdam yes 10:03 VanessaE if at all possible 10:04 PilzAdam would it also fix that the clouds change when deleting worlds? 10:04 VanessaE never noticed that 10:04 Zeg9 Maybe, I'm not sure about this. 10:06 sapier1 http://animalsmod.comuf.com/factions_mod/classfactions.html api suggestion for a factions mod 10:07 PilzAdam sapier1, s/del_faction/delete_faction 10:07 sapier1 pilzadam did you have time to check if those mob concentrations you experienced is really a result of activity boundary? 10:07 PilzAdam no, I was sleeping 10:08 sapier1 what you really need sleep? ;-) 10:08 smoke_fumus sapier1: fucked up hair, eyebags, redeyes, twitches. do you need any more reasons? :D 10:09 sapier1 you've got eternety to sleep ... should be enogh for everyone ;-) 10:09 smoke_fumus spirit can. body cannot. my personal record is 56 hours. first time playing minecraft survival (it was alpha 1.3.1 back then) 10:10 VanessaE 56 hours? O.O 10:10 smoke_fumus yep 10:10 sapier1 56 hours? wow 10:10 VanessaE damn, and here I thought I was doing good to go 36 hours in a stretch 10:10 smoke_fumus xD 10:10 sapier1 I'm about 50h max as far as I remember 10:10 smoke_fumus lesser records i usually take are 45-48 hours. was 3 in a row through 12 hour sleeps while i were coding gridhopper 10:11 VanessaE now, give me enough caffeine and an intense-enough interest and I might be able to stay up longer.. but dayum 10:12 sapier1 but takes some hours to recover from beeing awake for 50h ... less when I was young but now I need at least 8h 10:12 smoke_fumus VanessaE: give me intense enough interest, few gallons of pepsi, and good food 10:12 smoke_fumus sapier1: 8h will not do it. 10:12 smoke_fumus 18. 10:12 VanessaE heh 10:12 sapier1 will do 10:12 smoke_fumus i slept 18 hours after that 10:12 sapier1 I've never slept for more than 12 h after that my back starts to hurt ;-) 10:13 smoke_fumus i were sleeping on extra-soft matress 10:13 smoke_fumus that helped :D 10:13 VanessaE memory foam ftw :) 10:13 Zeg9 PilzAdam: should the menu clouds be the same as the ingame ones? 10:13 sapier1 I hate soft matresses ... can't sleep on things like that at all 10:14 sapier1 but back to what I wanted to ask does anyone have ideas what features are might be missing in my factions mod suggestion? 10:14 PilzAdam Zeg9, what do you mean? 10:14 VanessaE Zeg9: see if you can carry the currently-selected game's splash/overlays over when in singleplayer mode 10:14 VanessaE else I don't see much reason to keep the clouds in sync 10:15 Zeg9 Never mind. They aren't the same color anyway 10:15 VanessaE OH I see what you meant. 10:15 smoke_fumus speaking of gridhopper. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9288177/bin-debug/GridHopper/Gridhopper.xhtml this is earilier prototype. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9288177/bin-debug/gridhopper_beta3_exe.7z this is almost finished game 10:15 VanessaE there's no reason for that, no. 10:16 smoke_fumus half of levels is not there 10:16 smoke_fumus but level editor works 10:16 sfan5 !unmute *!*@*95.129.193.48 10:17 sfan5 smoke_fumus: there is no unity web player for linux 10:17 smoke_fumus hang on let me assemble linux binary for ya 10:17 Zeg9 Now need to recompile everything since I modified main.h... 10:18 smoke_fumus sfan5: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9288177/bin-debug/gh_beta3_linuxBIN.tar 10:18 smoke_fumus here you go 10:18 smoke_fumus ch +x gridhopper.bin and launch 10:18 VanessaE tar? jeez, at least compress it :) 10:18 smoke_fumus *chmod 10:18 smoke_fumus :p 10:18 iqualfragile sapier1: yeah, i like to sleep on the floor, too 10:18 smoke_fumus i don't have tools which gzip atm 10:18 sfan5 smoke_fumus: 404 10:19 sfan5 get 7zip 10:19 smoke_fumus sfan5: try again 10:19 iqualfragile no matresses at all 10:19 smoke_fumus oh come on its only 35 mb 10:19 VanessaE smoke_fumus: tar has built-in gzip/bzip2 I thought? 10:19 iqualfragile he has 7zip obviously 10:19 VanessaE oh 10:19 iqualfragile no it does not 10:19 sapier1 floor is a little bit to hard imho ;-) 10:19 iqualfragile it uses gzip 10:19 VanessaE file.tar.7z then ;) 10:19 smoke_fumus VanessaE: no it isn't. targz has 10:19 iqualfragile and bzip 10:19 iqualfragile 2 10:19 sapier1 at least if it's not a soft meadow ;-) 10:19 iqualfragile to compress 10:19 smoke_fumus tar on itself is pseudoarchive 10:20 VanessaE ah, I wasn't sure. I only ever go direct with jcvf/jxvf 10:20 iqualfragile smoke_fumus: well, its exactly what it states to be: a tape archiver 10:20 smoke_fumus true 10:25 Zeg9 Gotta go, bye all 10:26 smoke_fumus sfan5: so. 10:26 sfan5 smoke_fumus: downloading.. 10:26 sfan5 with 142 KB/s 10:26 smoke_fumus o_O 10:26 sfan5 my internet speed: 800 KB/s 10:26 smoke_fumus x.x 10:26 smoke_fumus stop download 10:26 smoke_fumus let me pack it... 10:27 sfan5 no 10:27 sfan5 i'm almost done 10:27 sfan5 done 10:30 sfan5 smoke_fumus: its a bit too big for my screen and i don't understand how it works 10:30 smoke_fumus uh. what's your screensize? 10:30 sfan5 1366x768 10:30 sfan5 useable by application: 1301x760 10:31 iqualfragile sfan5: thats a strange screensize 10:31 smoke_fumus iqualfragile: no that's 16:9 regular laptop 10:31 sfan5 iqualfragile: no? 10:31 smoke_fumus sfan5: it should show launch screen with resolution setup 10:32 iqualfragile it is? 10:32 smoke_fumus ugh... 10:32 * smoke_fumus bootsup linux vm 10:32 sfan5 smoke_fumus: first i see "powered by unity" and then it shows the main menu 10:32 smoke_fumus o 10:32 smoke_fumus shit 10:32 smoke_fumus sfan5: hang on. 10:33 * sfan5 wishes he had a bigger screen 10:33 smoke_fumus sfan5: ~/Library/Preferences/Unity/WebPlayerPrefs check there 10:33 smoke_fumus there should be picturesquegames/gridhopper 10:33 smoke_fumus or something like that 10:33 smoke_fumus in there should be a file 10:33 sfan5 smoke_fumus: uhh... that path looks like mac os 10:34 iqualfragile 1920x1080 10:34 iqualfragile indeed 10:34 smoke_fumus sfan5: pardon. /home/your user/.config/unity3d 10:34 iqualfragile --> ~/.config/unity3d 10:35 sfan5 smoke_fumus: 1024x768 what a strange setting.. 10:35 smoke_fumus regular one 10:35 smoke_fumus set to 800x600 10:35 smoke_fumus should do it 10:36 sfan5 smoke_fumus: i'll set it to fullscreen 10:37 smoke_fumus controls are arrowkeys/wasd + space for interaction. q/e for swapping group/rotation(state) in editor mode , rightclick/leftclick to set/destroy block in editor mode, mousewheel to scroll inbetween components in editor mode 10:38 sfan5 smoke_fumus: nice game 10:38 smoke_fumus yeh. 10:38 sfan5 first level is a bit hard for a first level 10:39 smoke_fumus it is introduction 10:39 smoke_fumus wait..what do you mean hard? O_o 10:40 smoke_fumus i though it is extremely easy 10:40 smoke_fumus you move box out of bunker, place it on platform, rotate 1 mirror to open path and get into teleporter pad 10:42 sfan5 smoke_fumus: it could be easier for an intrudction level 10:42 sfan5 *introduction 10:42 smoke_fumus O.O you telling me this is hard? jeezuz. 10:42 sfan5 its not hard 10:43 sfan5 but to show the basics it could be better 10:43 smoke_fumus let the user figure it out himself 10:43 sfan5 !deop 11:02 smoke_fumus sfan5: well, thing is figuring out those few movements is a trivial task. i'm not making game for retards. as far as my knowledge goes its more interesting to break down how game works 11:09 smoke_fumus like a chineese puzzle. nobody will tell you how it works- you should figure it out yourself 11:16 VanessaE bbl 11:32 sfan5 john_minetest: no, it isn't 11:48 PilzAdam bbl 11:50 messa4 would it be hard to create mod with turn based RPG dungeon crawl game? 11:51 sapier1 rpg isn't hard but turn based is 11:51 Calinou turn based RPG? ._. 11:55 messa4 yeah 11:55 messa4 like old school games 11:56 messa4 turn based becasue whole game is based on nice grid anyway. so easy to move stuff or calculate movment 11:59 messa4 why? engine can be realtime. just movment of game object will be turn based :) 12:01 messa4 anyway. please do it for me. for monday 12:02 sfan5 messa4: we are not your magic wish unicorn, which you can tell "do this for me, for " 12:02 messa4 but you are designers 12:02 messa4 and u know c++ 12:03 messa4 so its your job :D 12:03 messa4 no more excuses 12:03 sfan5 nope 12:03 messa4 just kidding 12:04 smoke_fumus john_minetest: switches fire back up eh 12:04 smoke_fumus when you step out from them 12:05 messa4 btw 12:05 messa4 john_minetest: and smoke: u remember games from 90" yeah? doom, quake 1 etc 12:05 messa4 wolfensteain 12:06 smoke_fumus true that 12:06 smoke_fumus messa4: yes and i remember way more games from 90". 12:06 smoke_fumus awkward 12:07 messa4 tell me: those games were looking much better then minecraft but had much lower RENDERING requirments. Why minetest is not written in the same way - to use FAST software renderer instead heavy opengl graphics - that is HEAVY but looks like shit 12:07 smoke_fumus shouldn't work like that 12:07 messa4 minetest* 12:07 messa4 that explains a lot 12:07 smoke_fumus messa4: you are not getting how complicated voxel structs of minetest are 12:07 messa4 i do 12:07 smoke_fumus you don't 12:07 smoke_fumus you simply don't 12:07 messa4 there were many voxel games back then. also with lower requirments for rendering 12:08 messa4 anyway - evetryhing in mineraft is just blocks 12:08 smoke_fumus messa4: and again. you are not getting it at slightest 12:08 Calinou dat assumption: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=89048#p89048 12:08 messa4 each block is like 8 polygons +texture 12:08 smoke_fumus 1 classical voxel = 1 pixel in 3d space = xyz vector + color property 12:08 messa4 so why the hell its so heavy to render? 12:09 messa4 smoke_fumus: how old are u? 12:09 smoke_fumus 21 12:09 messa4 same story 12:09 messa4 go and play quake 2 12:09 messa4 with software renderer u will understand 12:09 messa4 awsome graphics with minimum rendering requirments 12:09 messa4 SOFTWARE 12:09 smoke_fumus messa4: 1 minecraft voxel is - 12 triangles, each has 3 verticles, each verticle has xyz property and UV property with XY vector2 coords + type of block and its behavior 12:10 messa4 no opengl 12:10 smoke_fumus this is 16 times more data per voxel 12:10 smoke_fumus you are. a FUCKING IDIOT. 12:10 Calinou tripod and tripod2 walk into a bar 12:10 messa4 smoke_fumus: why so much data for one stupid box? 12:10 Calinou messa4: it is heavy to render because there is zero remipping 12:10 smoke_fumus messa4: learn how meshes being built in opengl dumbas 12:10 smoke_fumus *s 12:10 Calinou faces are rendered indidually in most cases 12:10 messa4 dude 12:11 messa4 as i said 12:11 messa4 quake 2 was able to run without opengl 12:11 smoke_fumus you are a fucking dumbass who talks idiocity and actually don't know jack about internal mechanics 12:11 Calinou tell me: those games were looking much better then minecraft but had much lower RENDERING requirments. 12:11 messa4 and any hardware acceleration 12:11 messa4 so why minetest cant do that? 12:11 Calinou can you make the difference between static worlds and prebuilt BSP maps and voxels? 12:11 Calinou also, minecraft looks fine 12:11 smoke_fumus messa4: quake 2 doesn't use voxels you retard. it uses few polygons per wall 12:11 messa4 its looks WORSE tehn quake 2 12:11 Calinou in quake, you can't put resolutions > 640×480 without a better graphic client 12:11 Calinou then > than 12:11 Calinou spell properly 12:11 messa4 Calinou: i can 12:12 Calinou with darkplaces, yes 12:12 messa4 Calinou: quake 2 worked nice up to like 1600x1200 12:12 Calinou try doing that in classic quake 12:12 Calinou now try 1920×1080 12:12 messa4 from 320x240 up 12:12 smoke_fumus messa4: again, dumbass. read what i've said. 12:12 smoke_fumus those are completely different algorythms for building level geometry 12:12 Calinou also, Q1/Q2/Q3 were very CPU centric because graphic cards were much slower back then 12:13 Calinou so if you have high end CPU + high end GPU you'll be CPU limited, almost alway 12:13 Calinou always* 12:13 messa4 Calinou: it ran on pentium 1... 12:13 smoke_fumus Calinou: this is not the case here. that idiot assumes that Q2 better then minetest although both use completely different approach to render and show geometry 12:13 * Calinou sets that pentium 1's ratio to 3333 12:13 smoke_fumus q2 - bsp trees and fixed level geometry with portal viewport splicing 12:13 messa4 Calinou: anyway: whats stopping minecraft from using polygons ? 12:14 messa4 minetest* 12:14 smoke_fumus messa4: dumbass. 12:14 smoke_fumus it uses polygons 12:14 smoke_fumus minetest voxels - dynamic direct path of rendering with releasing only technically visible quads into fov 12:14 smoke_fumus nothing getting culled down like in bsp 12:14 smoke_fumus and you can't 12:14 smoke_fumus because bsp is fixed 12:15 messa4 smoke_fumus: so it would be impossible to create minecraft like engine using quake2 engine? 12:15 smoke_fumus you can technically use quadtree but direct algorythms just easier to comprehend 12:15 smoke_fumus messa4: read what bsp is. 12:15 messa4 i mean Calinou * 12:15 Calinou there is occlusion culling, with opengl 2 12:15 Calinou 2.0 or higher* 12:15 smoke_fumus Calinou: its doing all the work 12:15 messa4 Calinou: and without opengl? omg why u are so obsessed with it 12:16 smoke_fumus you still need manually cull most of polygons 12:16 smoke_fumus i mean not even cull 12:16 smoke_fumus not mention them to render at all 12:16 messa4 smoke_fumus: i dont talk with u. u disrespected me like 30 times 12:16 smoke_fumus so it will get only polygons which can be visible 12:16 Calinou ugly? looks pretty decent to me: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/82342922/minetest/screenshot_2302091633.png 12:16 messa4 also u lack historical knowlege about game engines. 12:16 smoke_fumus messa4: because you are a retard with jack shit of knowledge 12:16 Calinou better than quake 2 12:16 smoke_fumus who assumes shit 12:16 smoke_fumus speaks shit 12:16 smoke_fumus and understands jack shit 12:17 Calinou aniso + 4× FSAA + 256× texture pack 12:17 smoke_fumus PERIOD. 12:17 Calinou and 128 view distance 12:17 messa4 Calinou: as i said 12:17 Calinou runs at 65+ FPS just fine 12:17 messa4 its look like shit . its just big boxes 12:17 messa4 i can get the same view in quake 2 12:17 messa4 question is: why quake is able to do it on pentium 1 without opengl and minetest cant? 12:17 Calinou lol messa4, go back to phoronix 12:18 Calinou same view? 12:18 messa4 sure 12:18 Calinou try enabling FSAA and anisotropic filtering without mods 12:18 Calinou and on a pentium I 12:18 Calinou with 65FPS or more 12:18 smoke_fumus Calinou: stop it 12:18 Calinou in 1920×1080 12:18 smoke_fumus STOP IT 12:18 Calinou no u 12:18 messa4 Calinou: 12:18 smoke_fumus you are not getting it either 12:18 smoke_fumus messa4: because. quake 1 uses static geometry while BSP tree culling down all unescessary poligons by sector of view 12:18 messa4 quake 2 looks better then blocks in minecraft... 12:18 smoke_fumus fucking idiot 12:18 iqualfragile uhm… guys what are you fighting about? 12:19 messa4 smoke_fumus: CAN U STOP acting like child? dont disrecpect me!!! 12:19 Calinou nodes don't necessarily look bad 12:19 smoke_fumus iqualfragile: that idiot has jack shit of a knowledge about mc-like voxels and talking retardcy 12:19 Calinou a block is 16×16×16 nodes by the way 12:19 smoke_fumus messa4: can you stop being an idiot? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSP 12:19 Calinou quake 2 looks way worse 12:19 smoke_fumus messa4: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_space_partitioning 12:19 messa4 smoke_fumus: I DONT TALK WITH U ANYMORE. u called me "dumb" "fucker" etc. 12:19 messa4 go to psychiatrist 12:19 smoke_fumus messa4: for a good reason 12:20 smoke_fumus john_minetest: give me a second 12:20 messa4 Calinou: would it be possible to write minecraft/test without opengl? 12:20 smoke_fumus i'm trying to explain to that bufoon how that works 12:20 iqualfragile ok: please stop calling each others names 12:20 iqualfragile messa4: no, it would not 12:20 smoke_fumus messa4: tell me. how do you render geometry without opengl. how do you implement software? 12:20 iqualfragile you need something wich displays stuff 12:21 smoke_fumus how do you position 3d geometry and display it 12:21 smoke_fumus tell me 12:21 messa4 smoke_fumus: there are millions 3D [full 3d] games with software renderers for example: HALF LIFE or QUAKE 2 12:21 iqualfragile wut? 12:21 iqualfragile nope 12:21 messa4 yes 12:21 iqualfragile they use direct x 12:21 messa4 go and check 12:21 messa4 nope 12:21 smoke_fumus SH 12:21 smoke_fumus SH BOTH OF YOU 12:21 messa4 there is software renderer in options 12:21 smoke_fumus they have software mode 12:21 iqualfragile give me a link 12:21 messa4 seriouslyt 12:21 iqualfragile -.- 12:21 messa4 go and check 12:21 smoke_fumus messa4: and how does they use it? what's their internal software renderer? 12:22 iqualfragile ok… yeah, ok they have a software render mode, but guess what it uses 12:22 messa4 games back then suppoerted 3 rendereers: opengl, directx OR software 12:22 iqualfragile right: directx 12:22 smoke_fumus messa4: i'll tell you what it is - it is same opengl 1.1 only moved to work on cpu and not gpu 12:22 iqualfragile and software just reffers to using your cpu instead of your gpu 12:22 smoke_fumus since back then most of pc's had only display-port 1mb mem gpu 12:22 messa4 go and check guys. no wonder that u are so angru if u NEVER PLAYED THOSE GAMES without opengl card 12:22 celeron55 quake2 looks like this: http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/quake-ii/screenshots/gameShotId,615425/ 12:22 smoke_fumus messa4: dumbass. 12:22 messa4 ITS NOT 12:22 smoke_fumus IT IS 12:23 smoke_fumus software mode is opengl moved onto cpu 12:23 messa4 it was not opengl on software - it was not blurry like surface 12:23 smoke_fumus in 80% of cases 12:23 messa4 NO ITS NOT 12:23 Calinou messa4: video_driver = software 12:23 messa4 it was pure software renderer 12:23 messa4 no blurness 12:23 messa4 its not like mesa 12:23 iqualfragile can somebody please kick smoke_fumus, even throught he is right he uses the wrong words 12:23 messa4 OMG 12:23 messa4 just go nad check guys 12:23 smoke_fumus messa4: you dumbass. blurry - antialiasing and filtering. 12:23 smoke_fumus you can switch filtering to point and get your huge pixels 12:23 messa4 smoke_fumus: u dont know what u talking about 12:23 smoke_fumus i know it perfectly 12:23 messa4 no u dont 12:23 smoke_fumus because i developing such stuff 12:24 celeron55 as a matter of fact, neither of you knows what you are talking about 12:24 messa4 u are calling me "Fucker" all day 12:24 smoke_fumus you are an idiot who knows jack shit 12:24 celeron55 you both probably should just stop 12:24 smoke_fumus messa4: you deserve each single word i called you 12:24 smoke_fumus TWICE 12:24 messa4 and u never played quake 2 or half life without opengl 12:24 messa4 ignore 12:24 smoke_fumus messa4: i played doom2 when it came out 12:24 smoke_fumus so you better watch your retarded words 12:24 messa4 any good soul here? 12:24 smoke_fumus little man 12:24 messa4 with above 25 age 12:24 messa4 [quake 2, HL etc] 12:24 smoke_fumus and knowledge of elementary school (in vg) 12:25 iqualfragile i request halfop (or whatever is the least required privilege to kick people) 12:25 messa4 and sane. unlike previous person that i was forced to mute 12:25 smoke_fumus iqualfragile: mate, i'm being sincere. that idiot just disgraces and doesn't understand jack 12:25 smoke_fumus but has attitude 12:25 smoke_fumus i'm culling it as i can 12:25 smoke_fumus although my methods are..well crap 12:26 celeron55 < messa4> so its your job 12:26 iqualfragile it does not matter, there is no reason to call him names 12:26 celeron55 for sure; how much will you pay? 12:26 messa4 celeron55: whats my job? 12:26 celeron55 messa4: i am quoting you 12:26 messa4 i was kidding with that :) 12:26 messa4 celeron55: are u over 25? 12:27 celeron55 i'm just a bit over 1337 12:27 iqualfragile im 1338 12:27 messa4 im serious buddy :) 12:27 messa4 got some questions about software rendering and minetest. but young ppl dont understand it at all or dont belive 12:27 smoke_fumus see? 12:27 messa4 coz all they know is opengl/directx 12:28 celeron55 so how many 3D games have you implemented? 12:28 messa4 one in qbasic :) 12:28 celeron55 messa4: it rendered in full HD and looked better than MT, right? 12:28 messa4 no 12:28 Calinou its not like mesa 12:29 Calinou mesa is not a software renderer 12:29 Calinou again: go back to phoronix 12:29 messa4 its emulating opengl 12:29 Calinou "hey, they really need to fix reclocking :rolleyes:" 12:29 messa4 in software 12:29 sapier1 mesa contains a software renderer as far as I know 12:29 Calinou no 12:29 Calinou mesa uses graphics card... 12:29 Calinou it's a free GL implementation 12:29 messa4 software based 12:29 sapier1 yes if available but it has a software renderer too ... at least older versions 12:29 smoke_fumus Calinou: you actually can hardwire gl calls to cpu execution - but that's phoronix again 12:30 messa4 anyway: any sane person here with +25 age? and some dos expirience? etc. 12:30 sapier1 if I remember correct latest mesa version dropped software rendering ... or am I mixing this up with reactos ... not quite sure 12:30 smoke_fumus can somebody tell him that i'm sorry? 12:30 sapier1 no we're all <20 ;-P 12:30 messa4 k 12:31 smoke_fumus messa4: ok now listen. and try to comprehend on the go. but before i start explaining - leave your typical human herd attitude 'i'm older than you - i know everything' outside of the window. 12:31 sapier1 to be more serious as far as I know you'll find almost any level of experience within mt community 12:31 smoke_fumus messa4: can you read me? 12:32 messa4 i know u got expirience. but i need to speak with someone who touched and saw the old technology - young ppl cant understand it :| 12:32 Calinou smoke_fumus: yes, llvmpipe 12:32 smoke_fumus messa4: i touched dos. i were programming wolfenstein-like raycasting engines 12:32 Calinou have fun playing openarena at 30FPS on a 3960X 12:32 smoke_fumus and i know enough about technology and its implementations up to the point of 1984 12:32 kahrl messa4: there's a reason quake2 maps use fairly simple geometry and often consist of small rooms 12:32 Calinou george orwell approves 12:33 Calinou ^ 12:33 kahrl the engine can't handle open spaces at all 12:33 Calinou paintball2 is a "good" example of this 12:33 smoke_fumus kahrl: hur hur hur. it can :D 12:33 messa4 kahrl: u rember software renderer from q2? 12:33 Calinou (quake2 engine, very open maps) 12:33 Calinou make a very open map with lots of detailed geometry 12:33 smoke_fumus there were q1 mod for huge maps for +80players combat 12:33 messa4 remember* 12:33 Calinou huehuehue 30 FPS 12:33 smoke_fumus no, not detailed 12:33 smoke_fumus but opened, non the less 12:33 celeron55 Calinou: ...run that on a pentium 1 and you get 2 FPS? 8) 12:34 sfan5 wow! xz did 129,7 MB -> 19,4 MB 12:34 Calinou run it on a celeron and get 55 FPS! 12:34 messa4 :( 12:34 smoke_fumus messa4: software rendering story for steamers. software rendering was middle-chain inbetween accessible home computing video accelerators and professional gpu's which were existant since 1991 12:34 smoke_fumus such as sillicon graphics stations and powerVR 12:34 sapier1 I doubt software rendering will be faster than any current graphics hardware (even intel graphics) 12:35 messa4 im not saying that 12:35 messa4 im just asking who remember it. so i can talk with taht person without problems 12:35 sapier1 so what's your usecase for software rendering? academic reasons only? 12:35 messa4 or half-life software renderer 12:35 smoke_fumus messa4: first software rendering (286) were dull and very simplistic - simple raycasting with splitting screen onto vertical lines 12:35 messa4 no. i have some related minetest question 12:36 smoke_fumus and drawing columns of pixels with size of column == distance 12:37 messa4 no one? 12:37 smoke_fumus the software rendering you see in q1 and q2 is nothing more than rudimentary copy of opengl calls written for direct cpu calling. the thing you were calling 'blurry' is bilenear filtering. switch filtering to point - and textures will be pixelated as much as you want to 12:37 smoke_fumus point or nearest neighbor (synonims in filter techniques) 12:37 celeron55 messa4: there was a very odd guy in here some years back who was making some kind of a raycasting voxel engine on some very obscure platform 12:38 celeron55 all i remember is that it ran like crap and nothing came from it 8) 12:38 messa4 i know who. he posted some nice videos on youtube 12:38 smoke_fumus celeron55: raycasting has nothing to do with q/hl software mode 12:38 messa4 about FUEL 12:38 messa4 game 12:38 smoke_fumus messa4: so, did you read what i've said? 12:39 smoke_fumus *bilinear filtering 12:39 messa4 anyway nvm. and to young guys: download half life or quake2 or unreal tournament - [those games are from 1998-99] and u can use pure software renderer in them. [or opengl if u like or directx]. it was possible. try it out. otherwise u missing A LOT of history 12:40 smoke_fumus dumbass. 12:40 smoke_fumus a fucking ignorant dumbass. 12:40 celeron55 i don't see the point 12:40 smoke_fumus i hate that kind of human herd idiots. 12:42 celeron55 i also don't get how one can associate "human herd" with that behavior 12:43 celeron55 that seems more like some kind of blind nostalgia 12:43 smoke_fumus celeron55: blind and dumb nostalgia + behavior of 'NANANANA dont' hear you, i'm better than you, i have some experience and i know none of you have, NANANA' - classical human herd which assumes he is smarter than everybody 12:44 smoke_fumus in my perfect country those should be shot to death on sight 12:44 celeron55 well whatever, something like that 12:44 iqualfragile well… i would not want to live in your "perfect country" 12:44 iqualfragile i guess gue are from 'merca? 12:44 smoke_fumus no i'm not 12:45 smoke_fumus i'm just telling that modern society commonly not prevents developing of such behaviors 12:45 smoke_fumus and not treats them like inapropriate (at least hard enough) 12:45 iqualfragile sfan5: yeah, xz is quite impressive 12:46 sfan5 !g spk "archive format" 12:46 MinetestBot sfan5: https://github.com/sfan5?tab=repositories 12:46 sfan5 hah! 12:46 celeron55 smoke_fumus: "modern society" is quite an arbitrary term; "modern western society" is better 12:47 smoke_fumus not only western no 12:47 smoke_fumus russian and cis in general as well 12:47 celeron55 well, russian is quite western 12:47 * smoke_fumus chuckle 12:47 smoke_fumus that makes sense 12:47 celeron55 as far as culture goes 12:48 smoke_fumus i've done some digging. http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/fortunes/shlomif-qoheleth.html looks like that messa4 guy is around 15 12:48 celeron55 eg. japanese culture probably differs a whole lot in this thing 12:48 smoke_fumus celeron55: its built on harder respect circles more 12:49 smoke_fumus and traditionalism 12:51 sfan5 in case anyone needs python 3.3.1: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/30267315/python3.3m-linux-amd64.spk.xz 12:52 smoke_fumus iqualfragile: celeron55: so yea, that messa4 guy is actually a troll 12:52 smoke_fumus ignoring right users, discussing with half-right ones, stating ignorant facts 12:52 smoke_fumus that's skilled troll behavior 12:53 smoke_fumus sfan5: isuggest you ban him for good 12:53 celeron55 why would anyone want to waste their time like that 12:54 smoke_fumus developed agressive sociopathy, finding enjoyment in angering others, low selfrespect 12:54 celeron55 also it's ridiculous how long people care to reply to such 12:54 smoke_fumus those are few 12:55 smoke_fumus trolling is certanly just way to redirect your internal mental pains. 12:55 smoke_fumus by harming mental stability of others and laughing at them 12:55 celeron55 also i don't think trolling is a good word for what messa4 did 12:55 smoke_fumus he did some form of it 12:56 smoke_fumus as far as i can dig into psychology 12:56 smoke_fumus this just looks like trolling. i was right from the start because i know the basics and advances of such things as software/hardware rendering, internal works. if you read his lines carefully - he misstates himself at least dozen of times 12:56 smoke_fumus and if you will read log i dropped in link 12:57 smoke_fumus he states that he is 36 there 12:57 smoke_fumus but he said he is 25 here 12:57 sapier1 I personaly prefere good arguments ;-) like the one yesterday night ;-) 12:57 smoke_fumus read cauciously and give meaning to all mis-statements - i've did so. he is a troll. 12:57 smoke_fumus ban him for good. 12:57 celeron55 i think that trolling is stating non-facts as facts and arguing in retarded ways with the intention that it is funny to some people more than the troller itself, poking fun at those "being trolled" 12:58 smoke_fumus true... 12:58 smoke_fumus still 12:58 smoke_fumus let's ban him. 12:58 celeron55 that's useless; he's not coming back 12:59 celeron55 and even if he comes, everyone knows he's not worth talking with 12:59 sfan5 !mute *!*@unaffiliated/messa4 12:59 sfan5 just in case.. 12:59 smoke_fumus :3 thank you 12:59 sapier1 do you recognize how much time we're wasting to that guy? ;-) 12:59 celeron55 i do 12:59 celeron55 and i hate it 12:59 Issa hello 12:59 Issa im plyed on ubuntu 12:59 Issa and i m tring to play in full sccreen 13:00 smoke_fumus sapier1: but but! http://xkcd.com/386/ 13:00 Issa but the fullscreen not workong 13:00 smoke_fumus xD 13:00 Issa so the probléme i have only show minetest on hal of the screen 13:00 Issa so it's a bug ? 13:00 Issa for the fulls screen : 13:00 Issa screenW = 1368 13:01 Issa screenH = 768 13:01 Issa fullscreen = true 13:03 kahrl have you tried other resolutions? 13:04 kahrl I assume your monitor doesn't support that resolution 13:13 celeron55 maybe change fullscreen_bpp 13:14 celeron55 fullscreen isn't particularly well supported in any case though (from our nor from irrlicht's side) 13:27 smoke_fumus i still wonder why irrlicht and not to example orgre 13:33 Koren why not irrlicht ? 13:37 NakedFury why irrlicht was chosen as the game engines? 13:37 sapier1 switching engine isn't an easy task so unless there's veryveryvery good reason to do it it won't be done ;-) 13:39 Koren I dont know why it was chosen for minetest but usually it's for its light weight, good perfs and high portability 13:39 Koren + its easy to learn and code with 13:49 KrisEike o/ 13:59 celeron55 i don't think i saw ogre in any of the 3d engine comparison listings i found when i was researching what to use for my first ever 3D project 13:59 celeron55 yes, this is that one 14:00 KrisEike Howdy celeron55. 14:00 KrisEike Figured i'd try your game again, been a while since i last tried it. 14:00 KrisEike Looks like it's gotten quite far :) 14:01 celeron55 i'm not sure if i remember your nick, but that must be a loooong time ago 14:01 KrisEike Haha, it is. 14:01 celeron55 it's less of my project than ever these days though, so don't blame me if it sucks 14:01 KrisEike Oh? 14:01 KrisEike Busy with school/work? 14:03 celeron55 i'm not the kind of guy who gets glued to one project for the rest of his life; i have many things in the works as usual 14:03 celeron55 (also work) 14:04 celeron55 (also less interest in first-person block games) 14:05 KrisEike Hahaha 14:05 KrisEike I've been getting a lot of downloads for my texture pack from Minetst 14:05 KrisEike minetest* 14:05 KrisEike Figured i could update it. 14:12 celeron55 i do commit some stuff once in a while, and i handle the main website... and grumble to people who don't focus on the right things 14:12 KrisEike lol 14:13 KrisEike How do i get my TP on the POPULAR part of the site? :P 14:13 celeron55 bribery and corruption 14:13 celeron55 :-D 14:13 KrisEike Works for me 14:13 KrisEike ;D 14:14 KrisEike Once i finish up working on my Minecraft server i might get started 14:14 KrisEike Also this is the pack www.minecraftforum.net/topic/144770-hdcraft 14:14 KrisEike Not sure if people remember it 14:16 KrisEike 43 downloads this month 14:16 KrisEike and its outdated as shit 14:16 KrisEike :p 14:20 MinetestBot GIT: kahrl commited to minetest/minetest: Drop IrrlichtDevice when running --speedtests 3332f606ed 2013-05-09T07:18:26-07:00 http://git.io/__J3hw 14:24 KrisEike This is looking very good celeron55 14:24 KrisEike I still hate the sound when walking on grass though ;D 14:25 celeron55 if you know better, you could propose some better sounds 14:26 PilzAdam someone really needs to sit down and create a soundpack for minetest_game 14:26 KrisEike I'd help you out but i don't have any good recording software 14:26 KrisEike How deep is the world? I'm at 170 blocks down now 14:26 KrisEike :p 14:27 PilzAdam 31k 14:27 KrisEike !? 14:27 celeron55 ...deep enough 14:27 KrisEike LOL 14:27 KrisEike Way too much for me XD 14:27 KrisEike IMO 5000 is more than enough 14:27 KrisEike :p 14:28 sapier1 just try /teleport 0,-30990,0 14:28 KrisEike I cant see anythin 14:28 KrisEike lol 14:29 celeron55 there should probably be some terrible monsters stopping you from going there though, but upstream development on that part competes in speed with snails 14:30 KrisEike celeron55, THe walking on gravel sound is .. strange. You could just use the same sound as the breaking sound 14:31 KrisEike IMO it sounds just as good 14:31 KrisEike :) 14:32 MinetestBot GIT: kahrl commited to minetest/minetest: Add --videomodes option to show available video modes 3b1c3ac678 2013-05-09T07:30:04-07:00 http://git.io/gzK0MQ 14:32 KrisEike 30912 blocks down, and it stops. 14:32 KrisEike YOU LIED TO MEH 14:33 KrisEike In all seriousness, this is impressive 14:33 whirm where does the common mods dir goes? in the mods/ dir? 14:33 PilzAdam KrisEike, well, it goes up the same amount of blocks 14:33 KrisEike what the fuck :p 14:33 sfan5 whirm: the common mods go into "games/common" 14:34 whirm sfan5: and the fire mod should be found by the mobs mod then? 14:34 sfan5 whirm: ..yes 14:34 whirm hm.. 14:34 KrisEike Very interesting game 14:34 KrisEike Has a lot of potentioal 14:34 KrisEike potential .. 14:35 celeron55 KrisEike: you'll be let down by the horizontal limits though, that too are 31k (altough any sane person understands it's enough there too) 14:36 KrisEike What do you mean celeron55 ? 14:36 celeron55 actually, that implied that you wouldn't be sane, sorry for that 8D 14:36 whirm sfan5: it says default and fire are missing :? 14:37 sfan5 whirm: download "https://github.com/minetest/common/archive/master.zip" and extract that as "common" in the games folder 14:37 KrisEike celeron55, I would personally just make the game 15k blocks up and down 14:37 KrisEike Or 30 14:37 KrisEike Idk 14:37 KrisEike 60 sounds veeery much 14:38 celeron55 limiting it is really up to the game content - they're just the hard engine limits 14:38 KrisEike But it's amazing how it actually beats the living fuckshit out of MC 14:38 whirm sfan5: I'm checking out the master branch directly 14:38 celeron55 but the game content is kind of underdeveloped 14:38 KrisEike I mean.. MC with 256 blocks 14:38 KrisEike This with 60k XD 14:38 kahrl it doesn't actually cost anything to make it 64k instead of 16k 14:38 KrisEike Really? 14:38 KrisEike Same amount of FPS and such? 14:39 kahrl yeah, those blocks aren't generated or loaded unless you go 14:39 whirm sfan5: it says the mods are missing but if I load the world, I see mobs spawning 14:39 kahrl go there* 14:39 KrisEike Oooh nice. 14:39 sfan5 whirm: then "git clone git://github.com/minetest/common games/common" 14:39 sfan5 try that 14:39 KrisEike Though the there's 1 thing i dislike .. 14:39 KrisEike Why the fuck is there a nyan cat block? XD 14:39 sfan5 KrisEike: why not? ;) 14:39 whirm sfan5: that's what I'm doing 14:40 KrisEike Lol 14:40 KrisEike I guess there's no mobs yet? 14:40 KrisEike Since i can't find any, at all 14:40 whirm KrisEike: you need to get a separate mod for it 14:40 KrisEike Ah 14:40 KrisEike Shame. 14:40 KrisEike Oh well :) 14:42 celeron55 it's a real shame, but nobody has the balls to put in mobs in the development state they currently are in... and we don't have a proper plan for how to design gameplay related to mobs 14:42 KrisEike I see 14:42 KrisEike Not sure how hard it can be to adjust the gameplay 14:42 KrisEike Give the player a sword and voila 14:43 KrisEike ;D 14:43 celeron55 it's not hard, somebody just needs to sit down and do it 14:43 celeron55 and then listen to all the naysay about them not looking like crysis 14:43 whirm sfan5: I think its just the UI saying the mods are missing, I've killed a couple of sand mosters already 14:43 whirm XDD 14:43 KrisEike celeron55, Game still in alpha, mobs still in alpha. 14:44 KrisEike Your excuse for everything ;D 14:44 celeron55 that's know to work until you slap 1.0 on the exact same thing :D 14:44 Zeg9 Hi 14:44 sfan5 hi Zeg9 14:45 KrisEike celeron55, What's your gal for the game? 14:45 KrisEike Goal* 14:45 KrisEike Adventure, building? creativity? 14:45 KrisEike killing everything with a sword 14:46 Calinou playing minecraft 14:46 Calinou ^ the goal 14:46 KrisEike Oh god it's you. 14:46 KrisEike o_o 14:47 KrisEike Someone give ma IP to play on 14:47 KrisEike Quickz! 14:47 KrisEike give me a ip* lol 14:47 kahrl 127.0.0.1 14:47 celeron55 well the original vision was leaning towards stealing treasures from monsters, but since then focus has slipped to all kinds of related and non-related things 14:48 kahrl :D 14:48 sfan5 KrisEike: look in the server list 14:48 KrisEike kahrl, is trolling meh 14:48 sfan5 what about 127.64.12.9 ? 14:48 KrisEike found one anyway 14:48 KrisEike lol 14:48 iqualfragile KrisEike: ip: 10.0.0.2 14:49 KrisEike celeron55, So.. mostly what MC does then 14:49 KrisEike ;D 14:49 KrisEike I'd say adding more creative blocks would be the best next step 14:50 KrisEike Chill with mobs untill ready 14:50 celeron55 anyone can do that by installing one of the hundred mods that add creative blocks 14:53 KrisEike Mods? fuck that shit 14:53 KrisEike Add it all to the game! 14:53 KrisEike :D 14:53 celeron55 well, mods are a whole different things in MT than in MC 14:53 kahrl the 'vanilla' game consists of mods :) 14:55 KrisEike Lost me tehre 14:55 KrisEike there* 14:55 celeron55 there is nothing to compile or decompile, nothing to patch, (usually) nothing to update for new MT versions, and making them requires nothing but a text editor and a copy of minetest 14:55 Warr1024 someone should strip the trailing slashes from the root folders in .gitignore, i.e. "/cache" instead of "/cache/". When I use a symlink instead of a folder, git status is showing that as a modification... 14:56 sfan5 "16:53:06: ACTION[ServerThread]: ass joins game. List of players: ass" 14:56 sfan5 ^ what? 14:56 KrisEike Who stole the skins from minecraft? XD 14:56 KrisEike I see MC players runnin around in MT 14:57 sfan5 KrisEike: mc players? 14:57 sfan5 you mean the model? 14:57 KrisEike Yeah 14:57 KrisEike and textures 14:57 KrisEike :p 14:57 sfan5 ... 14:57 sfan5 the textures are not stolen from mc 14:57 KrisEike Ok not stolen 14:57 KrisEike bad word 14:57 KrisEike :p 14:57 Warr1024 depends on the server; some servers might use custom mc-like textures... 14:57 sfan5 (but the server you're playing on can change the textures) 14:57 sfan5 the model is kind of same looking 14:58 KrisEike Ah 14:58 KrisEike I found chairs 14:58 KrisEike :o 14:58 sfan5 that means the server you're playing on definitly has mods 14:58 Warr1024 another day, another compile... 14:59 Warr1024 takes like 20 minutes on my atom n450 netbook 14:59 KrisEike Does that mean i will see the mobs too? 14:59 Warr1024 KrisEike: try "/mods" command 15:00 sfan5 KrisEike: if you join a server with mods, your client will automatically download the mods 15:00 KrisEike Oh my god 15:00 KrisEike that's epic sfan5 15:00 Warr1024 yeah, client thinness rules 15:01 sfan5 KrisEike: actually just the textures, models, sounds and node/crafting/etc. definitons are downloaded 15:01 KrisEike I see 15:01 KrisEike Might be hard to make textures for all of this 15:11 MinetestBot GIT: Sapier at GMX dot net commited to minetest/minetest: Really fix itemdef memory leak ee1155fe6d 2013-05-09T08:08:23-07:00 http://git.io/a8xcWA 15:18 KrisEike Eh 15:18 KrisEike Where is the textures located? 15:19 PilzAdam KrisEike, textures are usually in the textures/ folder of mods 15:19 KrisEike Nothing there 15:19 KrisEike :p 15:19 PilzAdam texture packs are installed in $path_user/textures/all/ 15:19 PilzAdam (without sub directories) 15:20 KrisEike Hm i need to download a tp then edit it then i guess 15:20 PilzAdam KrisEike, https://github.com/minetest/common/tree/master/mods/default/textures 15:20 KrisEike Ah 15:20 KrisEike Can i download all that at once? 15:21 PilzAdam you already have that 15:21 PilzAdam (in games/common/mods/default/textures/) 15:21 KrisEike Okay 15:21 KrisEike So i just add all these textures 15:21 KrisEike Into 1 folder 15:21 KrisEike and it works? 15:21 KrisEike No subfolders? 15:22 PilzAdam yes 15:22 KrisEike I see 15:22 KrisEike Well, thanks :) 15:22 KrisEike Will try that 15:22 KrisEike Dinner now.. afk ;) 15:23 tripod BAI! 15:24 smoke_fumus fuck yeah http://screencast.com/t/BRqyjmi0 http://screencast.com/t/AA3YFFQYFBz 3 day spent and finally i have some sort voxels 15:24 tripod Calinou: did you highlight me in this channel? 15:24 Issa smoke_fumus, what ide u use to o this ? 15:24 Issa is blender, no ? 15:24 smoke_fumus that's unity 3d 15:25 Issa what u create ? 15:25 smoke_fumus have you played x-com3 apocalypse 15:25 Issa no 15:25 Issa what is it ? 15:25 smoke_fumus jagged alliance? 15:25 tripod unity is a badass engine 15:25 tripod everyone has play ja/ja2 15:25 Issa is unreal engin 15:26 Issa link pleas ? 15:26 smoke_fumus i'm creating voxel shooter which from first looks is ace of spades clone, but actually it is tribute to x-com3 apocalypse in general and jagged alliance in lesser form 15:26 Issa ok 15:28 smoke_fumus mainly because i'm about to add walls (internal voxel will be split onto additional logical parts - 4 walls and floor tile. 15:28 smoke_fumus and huge destruction with breaking supports algorythm 15:36 Warr1024 anyone having trouble with player:hud_add? 15:36 Warr1024 when I join the server, it works, then I quit, and later rejoin, and then nothing... 15:36 KrisEike Back. 15:36 Calinou tripod: yes 15:38 celeron55 Warr1024: how is hud_add used? 15:39 Warr1024 on joinplayer, it registers a 1-second delay using after(), then in that callback it adds the hud to player that was passed into joinplayer 15:40 celeron55 well, that should work 15:40 Warr1024 do I need to do proper tear-down and remove huds on player disconnect? 15:40 Warr1024 or will that stuff get gc'd for me 15:40 celeron55 no; none of it is persistent 15:40 celeron55 the client forgets them at the instant it disconnects, and the server doesn't even know what has been sent to the client 15:41 Warr1024 ah, ok 15:42 Warr1024 doesn't seem to matter whether I close the client completely or just disconnect back to the main menu, doesn't work either way 15:42 Warr1024 maybe I need to wait for the player to connect completely...? Is there some way to tell? 15:42 Warr1024 I noticed that get_player_control() is giving me junk results when the player is still in the process of connecting, i.e. before player has any control 15:43 Warr1024 different random-ish keys will be "pressed" 15:43 celeron55 have you tried adding a longer delay before using hud_add? 15:44 Warr1024 I'd like to, but there's no fixed delay that will guarantee it would work, since clients take a different amount of time between "connecting" and actually gaining control to play. 15:44 celeron55 (i know it's hacky, but as of now it appears to be needed) 15:44 Warr1024 a possibly better hacky solution would be to capture player position, yaw, and pitch on connect, then poll to see when one of those changes first 15:44 Warr1024 thus as long as the player is frozen still, they're not considered "connected" 15:45 Warr1024 but again, still not quite right. 15:45 celeron55 well, on_joinplayer shouldn't be called before everything is ready; that's how it should be fixed 15:45 Warr1024 true 15:45 kahrl I've used a delay of 0 seconds without problems, but I might have gotten lucky 15:46 celeron55 it's really because of in the server-client context, the client and the player is a different thing, but in the lua context, there are just players 15:46 Warr1024 I'd love to fire a merge req your way to fix it, but I don't know the engine code well enough :-) 15:46 zRokh hi 15:46 khonkhortisan hello 15:47 khonkhortisan and welcome to #minetest, an irc channel for a game 15:47 zRokh i know what it is... 15:47 PilzAdam khonkhortisan, are you a bot? 15:47 zRokh im a local here 15:48 * Zeg9 wonders how much time it will take before zRokh is muted 15:48 zRokh hey PilzAdam 15:48 zRokh im Ragnar 15:48 khonkhortisan if only I was 15:48 zRokh :D 15:48 Warr1024 In the mean-time, I might try messing with hud_remove and re-hud_add to see if that can at least "heal" the situation if it pops up... 15:48 zRokh Original = http://ompldr.org/vaWN2YQ/me2.png , Drawn by me = http://ompldr.org/vaWN2OQ/asdf.jpg 15:49 zRokh #ART-SKILLZa 15:49 zRokh http://www.youtube.com/user/zRokh = Me on YouTube :D 15:51 zRokh who likey :D 15:53 celeron55 nobody 15:54 zRokh stop flattering :P 15:54 khonkhortisan I can't post on youtube because I can't take an account from myself 15:55 zRokh bye maybe 15:55 zRokh if i dont get disconnected im back 15:55 zRokh bye for now 15:56 Warr1024 yeah, hacky remove-and-re-add solution worked 15:56 Warr1024 I just keep track of the "age" of each hud and remove it after 10 seconds. 15:56 Warr1024 then if the hud is missing, re-add it automatically 15:56 Warr1024 ain't elegant, but it's usable, for now 15:57 celeron55 by the way, what're you adding to the hud? 8) 15:57 Warr1024 yet another oxygen meter :-D 15:57 Warr1024 though I tied "stamina" into the same system, so jumping around a lot uses up O2 as well. 15:58 Warr1024 having your head in a liquid or solid uses stamina, not having your head in a solid or liquid allows it to refill. 15:58 Warr1024 walking uses it up, jumping uses it faster 15:59 Warr1024 wading or treading water uses it faster, sneaking refills it faster 15:59 Warr1024 it's kind of complicated as-is 15:59 celeron55 so that makes the goal of the game standing still? :P 15:59 Warr1024 but one interesting side-effect is that it make building stairs actually valuable. 15:59 Warr1024 and bridges, or boats (if available) 16:00 Warr1024 walking uses up stamina slightly slower than having your head in air refills it, so just plain walking will actually allow your stamina to refill slowly 16:00 Issa hello celeron55 16:00 Issa hwo are u 16:01 Issa u are the master of minetest 16:01 Warr1024 which means that you can avoid the annoyances of having to catch your breath by building up infrastructure... 16:01 Issa what other project u work ? 16:02 frogcrush john_minetest: I agree 16:02 Warr1024 well, I started playing minetest about a week ago, and wrote my first mod last night, so it's not necessarily going to be brilliant :-) 16:03 kahrl I don't see how it would retain HUD elements between game starts. When you create a new Client object it creates a new LocalPlayer which has an empty list of hud elements 16:03 Calinou Issa: a few 2D games and that's all :> 16:04 Calinou more or less 16:04 Warr1024 I have to retain the hud ID in a local table server-side, but when I reconnect the same client a second time, I get a new HUD ID. 16:04 Warr1024 so there must be some server-side resource for it, if nothing more than a client/server ID mapping... 16:04 Issa Calinou, = celeron55 16:07 Warr1024 btw, you wanna talk about "hacky," well, I'm storing the player's current stamina level in a hidden inventory slot :-) 16:07 PilzAdam Warr1024, thats the hackiest idea I heard for a while :D 16:07 * PilzAdam likes 16:08 Warr1024 I wanted to make sure it got written out to disk as often as the rest of the player data, and I noticed that some other similar mods stored their data in private tables, then used a shutdown hook to write them out. Shutdown hooks are not reliable... 16:10 Warr1024 I actually find it odd that the map is apparently stored in a sqlite db, but there are a number of other things that are world-related and are written out to separate files, most notably player data. 16:11 Warr1024 I noticed that in a certain other game whose name begins with "mine," a player could dump a bunch of inventory into a chest, then if the server crashed before the player disconnected, there was a chance that the player's inventory would be restored to the pre-drop-in-chest state, i.e. dupe all those items. 16:31 Mati^1 hi 16:47 celeron55 Warr1024: there's a sane reason why minetest uses an sqlite database and discrete files: the database is used solely to store a certain data type, called MapBlocks, that were previously stored in files but which seriously overloaded any filesystem out there because of the amount of them 16:48 celeron55 and anything else isn't put in there because we're looking for a less bloated alternative (there is a leveldb implementation out there, but we're hesitant to use it because reading it with external tools would be hard - there's much more support for sqlite out there) 16:48 Warr1024 I can see some advantages to storing some of the data in discrete files, from an accessibility perspective (i.e. the "power of plain text"), but there would be a reliability advantage to storing more data in sqlite, i.e. ACID. 16:49 celeron55 (actually this is more of my own opinion though) 16:49 Warr1024 sqlite storage was actually a mod I was strongly considering for a certain other mining-oriented game :-) 16:51 celeron55 also there is the fact that our sqlite implementation will break for maps of over 2 or so GB of size - the largest servers are already using leveldb because of that 16:51 Warr1024 hm, sounds like back-end storage plugins are the way to go... 16:51 kahrl To really make use of ACID a transaction API would have to be exposed on the lua side 16:51 Warr1024 or you could do some god-awful "sharding" strategy where you split the world into different sqlite databases accessed in parallel. 16:51 kahrl I think that would be too complicated 16:53 zRokh http://www.youtube.com/user/zRokh/ --- Updates on the channel 16:53 PilzAdam zRokh, stop it 16:53 zRokh stop what? 16:53 zRokh =) 16:53 PilzAdam advertising your channel 16:53 Warr1024 kahrl: yes and no; the game runs in cycles, right? you could just batch up a certain number of cycles, or a all cycles for a fixed amount of time, into a single transaction. 16:53 Warr1024 the value being that you can recover sanely from a power failure without random world corruption. 16:54 zRokh why? i know MANY have done it here! 16:54 zRokh so why cant i? 16:54 zRokh hmmm? =P 16:54 sfan5 zRokh: many have advertised their channel here? 16:54 sfan5 i don't think so 16:54 zRokh yes. 16:54 sfan5 !op 16:54 zRokh NO 16:55 zRokh ill prove it! 16:55 sfan5 please provice a link to logs 16:55 zRokh tomorrow... 16:55 zRokh time almost up... 16:55 sfan5 no, not tomorrow, today! 16:55 zRokh 1 min left 16:55 zRokh i cant... 16:55 zRokh DUH! 16:55 Warr1024 quick, feed it more coins! 16:55 zRokh 45 seconds 16:55 zRokh xD 16:55 sfan5 !deop 16:56 celeron55 youtube channels in here this year: http://paste.dy.fi/yFe/plain 16:56 celeron55 (bad regex, pulled something non-channels too) 16:57 celeron55 but anyway, there has been no advertising except once by NekoGloop 16:58 Warr1024 did you check for youtube\.com|youtu\.be ? 16:58 Warr1024 :-) 16:58 celeron55 huh, i guess i should 16:59 celeron55 well, no .be there 17:00 KrisEike What's default_mese.png ? 17:00 KrisEike A ore? a full block? 17:01 PilzAdam fullb block 17:01 PilzAdam -b 17:01 KrisEike Then what the hell is default_mese_block ? 17:01 KrisEike XD 17:01 Warr1024 how do you pronounce that anyway? 17:02 PilzAdam well, default_mese.png isnt used anymore 17:03 KrisEike Then off it goes 17:03 KrisEike ;) 17:36 KrisEike HDCraft updated for Minetest! :) 17:36 KrisEike http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=89188#p89188 17:37 Zeg9 Oh, now I remember where I saw your name, KrisEike 17:37 KrisEike :P 17:38 Calinou octavian server still exists? 17:38 dante123 !up minetest.info.tm 17:38 Calinou mmmph 17:38 MinetestBot minetest.info.tm:30000 seems to be down 17:38 KrisEike Yes Calinou 17:38 dante123 !up minetest.info.tm 17:38 Calinou aren't your tool textures a bit offset, too? 17:38 MinetestBot minetest.info.tm:30000 seems to be down 17:39 Calinou on the third screenshot 17:39 KrisEike idk 17:39 KrisEike old pictures 17:39 Calinou KrisEike: in git there are desert stone bricks and sandstone bricks 17:39 Calinou both have a bricky-like look, desert stone bricks having a color similar to desert stone 17:39 KrisEike Aha 17:40 Calinou default_desert_stone_brick.png 17:40 KrisEike Meh if people want it added they can give me the png 17:40 Calinou default_sandstone_brick.png 17:40 KrisEike and i might add it 17:40 Calinou for sandstone brick you could base it off the smooth sandstone from MC 17:40 dante123 !up minetest.info.tm 17:40 MinetestBot minetest.info.tm:30000 is up (0.383ms) 17:40 Calinou and color it red-ish for desert stone brick 17:40 * Zeg9 shouldn't even have considered the idea of making clouds in the loading screen. progress bar was enough 17:41 Calinou it's ok 17:41 Calinou does it slow down loading time? 17:42 Zeg9 No, just that it is a huge pain to program 17:43 thexyz then don't do it 17:43 Zeg9 I am nearly done with it. I won't abandon now. 17:45 KrisEike Off i go 17:45 KrisEike http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=89188 If anyone can take more pictures i'd be grateful! 17:45 KrisEike afk 17:49 Issa the picture of krisEike is realy HD ? 17:49 Issa i don't hink 17:53 Warr1024 ok, I "fixed" the problem of the hud not reappearing when a player quits and rejoins by removing and replacing it every 5 seconds, and I "fixed" the problem of the flicker that THAT caused by adding the replacement hud first, then removing the old one async after an extra half second... 17:54 celeron55 lol 17:54 Warr1024 hacky, but at least apparently stable 17:54 Warr1024 it'll hold me over until the bugs with player joining and missing huds are figured out properly 17:55 Warr1024 I gotta say though, love this game. 17:55 Warr1024 I'm particularly impressed that it runs better on my OpenBSD Atom n450 netbook than MC ran on my Debian Wheezy Core 2 Duo. 17:57 celeron55 MC back in the alpha days was delightfully lightweight; these days it doesn't really run on other than gaming computers 17:58 celeron55 it's sad 17:58 celeron55 good for us though :-D 17:58 Zeg9 Agree :p 17:58 Warr1024 I have a higher draw dist and many more 3d features enabled in MT too; my bottleneck is still the CPU. 17:59 Warr1024 in MC I had more of a GPU bottleneck, but both were still pretty bad 17:59 Zeg9 MT server doesn't use 2GB of ram, that is a good point too 17:59 Warr1024 oh, yeah, forgot about that :-) 17:59 Zeg9 ^ even with 50 mods/plugins 18:00 * Zeg9 is leaving, bye 18:00 Warr1024 The only slowdown I experienced was after I installed PilzAdam's simple mobs mod, and that seemed to be due to hundreds of rats spawning and never disappearing on their own... 18:01 Warr1024 probably easy enough to patch up... 18:01 celeron55 MT's collision detection implementation isn't particularly fast 18:01 ShadowNinja Warr1024: That mod brought Menche's server to the ground while it was installed. 18:01 Warr1024 it wasn't server-side slowdown, it was client 18:01 Calinou and is buggy since nodeboxes were added, and is even worse since Taoki[laptop] put his physics changes :P 18:01 Warr1024 I think in my case it was processing the extra entity movement update packets. 18:02 Calinou celeron55: it runs fine on an HD4000, so no 18:02 Calinou in normal+fancy with optifine, minecraft is very lightweight for a popular game 18:02 Warr1024 I needed optifine to make it playable 18:02 celeron55 Calinou: HD4000 is like 10x faster than the crappiest thing on which you can run MT quite fine 18:02 celeron55 or 20x 18:03 Calinou well, yeah 18:03 Calinou it's something you find on most laptops today 18:03 Calinou since last year 18:03 Warr1024 I generally don't bother with anything except integrated graphics anymore 18:03 Warr1024 too hard to find decent open-source drivers 18:04 celeron55 i mean... HD4000 is like the fastest you need to run MT with it's "highest settings"... 18:04 celeron55 :D 18:04 celeron55 you don't gain almost anything with faster than that 18:05 ShadowNinja MT runs good on a HD4000. That is what I have, tops at about a view range of 100. 18:05 ShadowNinja (while remaining smooth) 18:06 Warr1024 I'm getting 15fps, v_range = 32, and burning about 15 watts. 18:07 Warr1024 seems pretty efficient to me 18:07 celeron55 that's quite terrible, but so is your hardware :P 18:07 Warr1024 for certain values of "terrible," certainly. 18:08 Warr1024 I can do v_range of 240, 30fps, but it takes about 4x the power. 18:08 Warr1024 or maybe it was 6x? I can't remember how much my other laptop burns... 18:09 celeron55 what kind of a laptop can burn 60W? 18:09 Warr1024 that might be at the outlet, i.e. including the power brick. 18:09 celeron55 i've seen 30W, but 60 needs so much airflow it must sound like a vacuum cleaner 18:11 celeron55 power bricks are often something like 60W to accomodate full load plus full battery charging 18:11 Warr1024 Anyway, didn't mean to make this into a contest (I'm on OpenBSD, so clearly performance tuning was not a big priority for me). Just wanted to say that MT's performance is really refreshing, so... thanks :-) 18:12 celeron55 oh whatever 8) 18:19 kaeza hi all 18:26 * sokomine likes MTs performance as well 18:26 sokomine hi :-) 18:28 sokomine good to hear that a hd4000 would be perfect. still have to decide what to buy...with development gone almost to a halt on desktop pcs, maybe waiting for haswell might make sense. or i just buy the cheapest celeron and don't care about quiet cooling or a new case or whatever :-) 18:37 celeron55 well i've learned that if i want to get a single thing right in a computer, it's the amount of noise 18:38 celeron55 anything else is secondary and completely irrelevant if the thing makes too much noise 18:38 Warr1024 argh, these freakin' HUD's 18:38 Warr1024 thought I had the problem fixed, or at least worked around 18:38 Warr1024 thought wrong. 18:39 celeron55 maybe you should pastebin the code and see if others find an obvious bug in it 18:40 NakedFury that helps 18:40 NakedFury always 18:40 sokomine that's right. before this one, i kept a computer for almost 9 years. the fans got extremly loud so it was time to replace it. fortionately it seems to be relatively easy to get current pcs quiet. power consumtion and subsequently noise is something where development seems to have taken place 18:42 Issa hello 18:43 Issa i m looking on the website of my favorite texte pacl 18:43 Issa Sphx test Bdcraft 18:43 Issa and i show this video ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nI7uz1EIdzI#! 18:44 ShadowNinja ShadowBot: title http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nI7uz1EIdzI#! 18:44 ShadowBot ShadowNinja: "Our World" (Minecraft w/ Sonic Ethers Shaders + PureBDCraft x512 + Real Clouds) - YouTube 18:45 Issa look this --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=Vunk72tZf5Q&feature=endscreen 18:45 Issa it's pretty nice 18:45 Warr1024 ok, kinda problematic. gist.github.com and pastebin.com are both not working right. 18:45 ShadowNinja ShadowBot: title http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Vunk72tZf5Q 18:45 ShadowBot ShadowNinja: Realistic Ocean in Minecraft (VFX breakdown) - YouTube 18:46 ShadowNinja Warr1024: pastebin.ubuntu.com, pastebin.progval.net, etc. 18:48 Warr1024 http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/5648712/ 18:48 Warr1024 thanks 18:49 sfan5 celeron55: you got 333 posts 18:50 Warr1024 regression testing to make sure the code I just posted behaves exactly as described... 18:50 Warr1024 yep, confirmed, hud is there first time, quit and rejoin and it's gone. 18:51 Warr1024 I commented out my hackish recreation code, but that didn't work reliably when I tried it. 18:51 Warr1024 seemed to work the first couple of times, but I may have been testing wrong. 18:52 Warr1024 it seems to take about 30 seconds or so between the time I show up on the server logs vs. am actually in the game. 18:52 Warr1024 though again that number is subject to significant variation. 18:55 Warr1024 basically, every so often, in globalstep (which I should probably replace with timers or after() callbacks or something) it does an oxygen check on all players 18:55 Warr1024 it ends up setting oxy level for each player, which results in calling oxyhud, which creates the hud (if missing) and sets the value. 18:55 Warr1024 it also used to remove the hud and try to recreate it, but again, that didn't work the second time the player connected. 18:56 celeron55 Warr1024: is it possible that in your code this happens: player joins, code sets huds[name] = something, player leaves, player joins, code checks that yeah, huds[name] has something, and doesn't add hud? 18:56 ShadowNinja Warr1024: Try using register_on_joinplayer. 18:57 Warr1024 yeah, hold on, I hastily commented out some things that seemed to be clouding the core issue 18:57 sokomine wrr: noticed that several times as well. people greeted me before i could actually see anything 18:57 Warr1024 lemme make sure my hud data is getting disposed first... 18:58 Warr1024 ok, I'm nilling out that hud table entry on both joinplayer and leaveplayer... 18:58 Warr1024 retesting... 19:03 Warr1024 argh, still no love 19:04 Warr1024 it's definitely getting a different hud ID. 19:04 Warr1024 got 0 the first time and worked, 1 the second time and didn't 19:04 Warr1024 I figured it was possible the hud ID's got desynced server/client, so I tried hard-coding 0, but no luck there either; it was kind of a longshot, anyway. 19:05 celeron55 so if you delete all code except add code that uses add_hud in on_joinplayer, it fails to work? 19:05 celeron55 *always uses 19:05 celeron55 kaeza, hmmmm, whoever who actually knows something about this: do you have any idea? 19:06 kaeza celeron55, Warr1024, I have no problems setting hud with a 0.5 sec delay 19:06 Warr1024 lemme do that 19:08 kaeza Warr1024, in most cases, you'll probably be updating the HUD frequently (like every half second) 19:09 Warr1024 ok, I tried without the delay, straight-up joinplayer, and got nothing the first time. 19:09 Warr1024 why's that delay necessary anyway? 19:10 kaeza not sure 19:10 Warr1024 that's a bit scary 19:10 kaeza but minetest.chat_send_player() also does not work without the delay 19:10 kaeza It may be because the player has not "emerged" yet 19:10 Warr1024 crap, found bug in my test code, gotta retest 19:11 kaeza again, not sure 19:11 Warr1024 yeah, well, it takes about 30 seconds for me to emerge 19:11 Warr1024 yet it works on an un-emerged player the first time... 19:11 sapier1 http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=5919 factions mod with mod <-> mod api and reputation support 19:11 * smoke_fumus added 3d perlin noise to setup temporary blocks 19:11 smoke_fumus http://screencast.com/t/vCx7alaW1tk looking good 19:12 kaeza Warr1024, https://github.com/kaeza/minetest-kaeza_misc/blob/master/crosshair_ex/init.lua 19:12 Warr1024 ok, no delay and it doesn't work, 0.5s delay and it worked the first time I joined... 19:13 Warr1024 ...and didn't work the second time I joined. 19:14 Warr1024 kaeza: yeah, that's what my code's doing now, except it's statbar and there are a few other features I'm using like offset. 19:14 Warr1024 minetest.register_on_joinplayer(function(player) minetest.after(0.5, function(self) player:hud_add({ hud_elem_type = "statbar", position = { x = 0.5, y = 1 }, text = "oxygen_icon.png", number = 20, offset = { x = 0, y = -54 }, }) end) end) 19:14 Hwkiller Hm, I keep getting a segmentation fault in minetest now 19:14 Warr1024 that code works the first time I join the server. 19:15 Warr1024 if I leave the server, and rejoin it without restarting the server, no worky. 19:16 Warr1024 I had been wondering if it's possible that the hud IS being drawn but there's a bug in the new offset feature and it's getting drawn off-screen 19:17 Warr1024 I guess I can try messing with the numbers... 19:17 kaeza Warr1024, the final position is calculated on the fly, so cumulative errors are unlikely 19:17 Warr1024 yeah, that's how I'd do it too 19:18 Warr1024 without knowing the code well enough, though, I'm more or less shooting in the dark hhere. 19:19 Warr1024 yep, failed again, with offset removed and x/y at 0.5,0.5 19:19 kaeza Warr1024, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/hud.cpp#L173 19:19 ShadowNinja Set the delay higher maybe? 19:20 Warr1024 if it were the delay that were the problem, why does it work the first time I join? 19:20 Warr1024 I'm gonna try a fresh build of ee1155fe to make sure I'm on latest on both ends of the platform. 19:20 smoke_fumus ShadowNinja: i know i have no idea because i just took a notice, but can you invoke stand-alone thread for process and signal back after it's complete? 19:22 Warr1024 can anyone else reproduce this? 19:22 ShadowNinja smoke_fumus: I don't know much about threading. 19:23 Warr1024 smoke_fumus: you talking about multithreading in lua, C++...? 19:23 smoke_fumus easy enough. protect everything you thread in singleton, start coroutine which will calculate whatever you need and then signal back to main thread to use results on next update 19:24 smoke_fumus there is threading in lua...although it is...well crappy 19:24 Warr1024 yeah, it's not the kind of threading where you have more than one of them running at a time. 19:24 PilzAdam minetests Lua env is not able to use threads 19:24 ShadowNinja s/much/anything/ ;-) 19:24 smoke_fumus PilzAdam: ah shit 19:24 smoke_fumus yeah, that could be a problem 19:25 Warr1024 there are significant technical barriers to being able to run pre-emptive multithreading within a single lua context. 19:25 sapier1 threading for lua is one of my longterm goals but currently even basic infrastructure is missing 19:25 Warr1024 you can, however, spin up another context (though this requires C work) or just do your complex background work in a C thread. 19:25 kaeza smoke_fumus, look at this: https://github.com/kaeza/mapp/blob/threading/init.lua 19:25 PilzAdam sapier1, sfan5 was looking at it too 19:26 sapier1 good to know 19:26 sapier1 I'm working at this for about half a year now ... at least every now and then but in current state of lua api threading is simply impossible 19:26 PilzAdam well, he looked at it because of Worldedit, but switched to a block query (like WE++) after a while 19:27 sapier1 primary problem for lua threading is crazy locking style within whole core 19:28 Warr1024 if you want to do work in a background thread, your best bet is to create a separate, completely independent lua context, and serialize everything you need to ship over to it, and back. It's only possibly worthwhile if the computations are complex enough to offset the cost of serialization. 19:28 sapier1 this needs to be fixed prior any threading can be implemented 19:28 sapier1 no it isn't warr1024 19:28 sapier1 as you need to implement data transfer mechanisms for this to be of any use 19:29 Warr1024 yes, hence my mention of it needing to be REALLY worthwhile. 19:29 sapier1 anything requireing that much cpu power most likely will be better done in c++ either ;-) 19:30 kaeza smoke_fumus, the code I linked is for a "map" mod generated on the fly. The main problem was that it blocked the server whenever a player tried to look at the map 19:30 Warr1024 right, it just depends on how accessible you want to make that as a general convention.. 19:30 kaeza so I implemented it using Lua coroutines, updating a section of the "map" at every step 19:30 sapier1 currently most mod latency is introduced by mods running up and down lua <-> c++ way to often 19:31 smoke_fumus kaeza: what do you mean by 'look' 19:31 sapier1 there's only a big env lock once anyone accesses map all others are locked out until that one finishes 19:31 Warr1024 sapier1: if lua/C++ intercomm is slow, I'll have to keep that in mind then. 19:31 sapier1 this is the real problem 19:31 sapier1 especially lua <-> map intercom is slow 19:32 kaeza smoke_fumus, it's a "map", as in, a piece of paper showing the geeneral terrain, not a "minetest map" 19:32 kaeza whenever a player used the "map" tool, the server got stuck until it finished generating the image 19:33 Warr1024 you could build some sort of external process to poll the map and build pre-computed images... 19:33 sapier1 I guess this is because of map tool did fetch information from minetest map ... a very very slow path in core 19:33 kaeza sapier1, in part, yes 19:33 kaeza and because it needs to generate the formspec 19:34 sapier1 yes but that process needs to handle map changes gratefully and not crash if data is modified while its working with it 19:34 smoke_fumus kaeza: so technically mod which shows flatmap as in topview overview 19:34 sapier1 if that process locks the map too it's of no use 19:34 sapier1 whats so slow in generating a formspec? 19:34 smoke_fumus okay. first. it never should be serverside. 19:34 kaeza sapier1, it only caches the node names; it does not block anything 19:35 smoke_fumus you should pass it to client 19:35 kaeza smoke_fumus, +1 19:35 Jordach anyways 19:35 sapier1 lua is alway running within map lock 19:35 Jordach i might have found a soloution to the player skin system 19:35 [ungali] are there binary packages of 0.4.6 for debian? 19:35 sapier1 at least in current implementation 19:35 smoke_fumus its like getting server to calculate all damn geometry to send it to client 19:35 smoke_fumus I DARE YOU it will suck 19:35 kaeza sapier1, it updates (or rather caches) a section in one pass, then yields back to the game 19:36 Mati^1 re 19:36 sapier1 and how long does processing of this section require? 19:36 smoke_fumus client looks at map - tell server that map item there was activated, then get client allowance to proceed to look at tops of map 19:36 kaeza and so on and so on until the entire requested area is cached, then the formspec is built and shown to the player 19:36 smoke_fumus client will gen it 19:36 kaeza sapier1, on averave 5 secs 19:36 sapier1 LOL 19:36 kaeza average* 19:37 Warr10241 btw, MT will run on an atom n450, but it also seems to occasionally make the GPU melt... 19:37 sapier1 and I was worried about pathfinding took 200ms in some cases 19:37 Warr1024 ok, so I uppped the HUD delay to 30s, and still same results. 19:37 Calinou works fine for me on a N455, Warr1024, although slow 19:37 kaeza sapier1, it's not my code, I just made it a bit better 19:38 kaeza blame 4aiman 19:38 kaeza ;) 19:38 sapier1 if you lock lua for 5 seconds you most likely will cause lot of trouble 19:38 Warr1024 Calinou: yeah, it's probably an issue with my GPU drivers or something... 19:38 Calinou it's still infinitely better to play on a desktop :P 19:38 Calinou xubuntu 12.10 64 bit + intel drivers 19:38 sapier1 collision handling will drop data if dtime is > 2s 19:38 kaeza sapier1, it updates (or rather caches) a section in one pass, then yields back to the game 19:38 kaeza each pass caches one map "line" 19:38 sapier1 yes and you said a section requires 5s? 19:39 kaeza nope 19:39 kaeza the full process takes 5 secs 19:39 sapier1 ok thats something completely different 19:39 Warr1024 so I guess this HUD thing is a bug? I'm kind of surprised it wasn't caught before 19:39 kaeza from the user using the tool to the map displaying 19:41 sapier1 I'm already planing support for asynchronous lua operations ... this is almost same as warr1024 suggested with threading 19:41 sapier1 but as I told this requires some locking cleanup 19:42 Calinou finally an open source prorgrammer cares about multithreading! 19:42 Calinou * AMD spams "alleluiah" 19:43 sapier1 lol I talking about multithreading for years but it's almost as impossible to add this as adding security features ;-P 19:44 kaeza sapier1, adding multithreading would be great 19:44 Calinou better add multithreading than security features 19:44 Calinou life is too short to care about security :P 19:44 celeron55 Warr1024: it seems nobody can tell if it's a bug or not 19:44 kaeza but for now, we gotta do with what we have :) 19:44 Warr1024 ok, well, I'm going to test one more time using kaeza's mod, which I am assured works correctly 19:45 Warr1024 if I can reproduce it, I'll file an issue in github... 19:45 sapier1 lol maybe your life is so short BECAUSE you don't care about security ;-P 19:45 celeron55 Warr1024: take kaeza's mod and replace your stuff into it until it doesn't work 19:45 celeron55 (assuming it works initially) 19:45 kaeza it does :) 19:45 Calinou sapier1, actually, minetest is a game 19:46 sapier1 no I won't start this discussion again we all know there wont be any result 19:47 smoke_fumus threads is a great way to enhance perfomance 19:47 smoke_fumus just make sure its pid-less threads xD 19:47 sapier1 only if you do correct locking 19:47 smoke_fumus true true 19:47 Warr1024 and if you have more than 1 core 19:47 smoke_fumus unprotected threads are general pain 19:48 sapier1 but only way to gain full performance 19:48 smoke_fumus is to use 64 bit 19:48 smoke_fumus :D 19:48 Warr1024 celeron55: reproduced it without modifying kaeza's code 19:48 Calinou how about 128 bit 19:48 Warr1024 I wouldn't be surprised if much of the mod content out there is only tested rigorously in single-player, in which case you get a fresh server each time 19:48 smoke_fumus Calinou: do you have intel/amd processors with 128bit archetecture? 19:48 smoke_fumus i don't think you do 19:49 kaeza Warr1024, just tested my mod. restarted 4 times in a row and no problems 19:49 Warr1024 kaeza: restarted what? 19:49 sapier1 no is using non synchronized threads ... but this requires a little bit more than just writing some "working" code down 19:49 Calinou steamroller will be 128 bit, you didn't know? 19:49 smoke_fumus fun fact but dreamcast had 128bit 19:49 smoke_fumus wait.. 19:49 Calinou so that AMD will sell a lot of CPUs again, just like they did when they introduced 64 bit 19:49 Calinou 19:49 kaeza Warr1024, went back to main menu and started game again.... wasn't this the problem? 19:49 Jordach http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=89193#p89193 19:50 Warr1024 kaeza: did you leave the server running, or were you in single player? 19:50 smoke_fumus uh. hm. i am a bit wrong - dreamcast had 128-bit graphics core meaning that inside of gl call you could've had just one bigass mesh per level 19:50 smoke_fumus to example 19:51 smoke_fumus which is interesting way of optimizing 19:52 kaeza Warr1024, derp 19:52 kaeza indeed reproducible 19:52 Warr1024 Filed as issue 711 (don't I get a free slurpie with that?) 19:53 smoke_fumus Warr1024: no but you do get nagged respond like 'goddamn, another issue' 19:53 Warr1024 yeah, sorry about that :-) 19:53 smoke_fumus xD 19:54 Warr1024 Normally I prefer to include code to fix the bugs that I file, but I don't know the code well enough (yet) 19:54 * ShadowBot wakes up 19:54 Calinou Warr1024, I got issue 666 :P https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/666 19:54 * ShadowBot sleeps 19:55 kaeza Calinou is satanic :O 19:55 sfan5 ,,(op MinetestBot) 19:55 kaeza ...and a griefer :P 19:55 khonkhortisan dr. who reference http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0jftqRLG5c&t=1m10s 19:55 smoke_fumus Calinou: ??? you're on the highwaaaaay to hell~~~~ ??? 19:55 smoke_fumus :D 19:55 Calinou no u 19:56 smoke_fumus gladly. at least succubs not that crazy as typical 21 old girls 19:56 * smoke_fumus trollface 19:56 sfan5 !title 19:56 MinetestBot TypeError: f_title() takes exactly 4 arguments (2 given) (file "/home/user/mtbot/bot.py", line 214, in call) 19:57 smoke_fumus hey, i found a note symbol. ddd nana-nana-nana-nana-nana-nana-nana-nana BATMAN! ddd 19:57 Calinou tripod, obit smoke_fumus please 19:57 Calinou he's your clone :> 19:57 smoke_fumus xD 19:58 smoke_fumus speaking of adam west's batman. http://z0r.de/5036 19:58 Issa i m a singlpayer on minetest how cheat 19:58 Issa ? 19:58 Calinou /grant singleplayer all 19:59 celeron55 Warr1024: well, good thing somebody found the issue then... now hope that somebody manages to fix it in reasonable time :P 19:59 smoke_fumus Issa: cheat singleplayer to, should you, google lookup 20:00 smoke_fumus WORD ORDER 20:00 smoke_fumus LEARN IT xD 20:00 Warr1024 is anyone specific responsible for fixing this sort of stuff? 20:00 kaeza smoke_fumus, he's Yoda 20:00 celeron55 generally those who have added a feature are responsible for fixing it 20:00 smoke_fumus kaeza: yoda didn't skipped words 20:00 Warr1024 ah 20:00 Issa smoke_fumus, im on the wiki, and no information about this on it 20:00 smoke_fumus misplaced yes, skipped no 20:01 Issa smoke_fumus, http://wiki.minetest.com/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=cheating&go=Go 20:01 smoke_fumus NO CHEAT FOR YOU 20:01 smoke_fumus PLAY FAIR 20:01 celeron55 Warr1024: this one was contributed by someone who doesn't hang around here otherwise though, and then hmmmm reworked it and kaeza extended it so i don't know who to blame 8) 20:01 smoke_fumus this is short answer. long answer is that someone should add inventory picker mod for ssp 20:01 ShadowNinja sfan5: The commacomma() notation is for use in sentances, you can use !cmd or ShadowBot: cmd also. 20:02 sfan5 ShadowNinja: ok 20:02 PilzAdam celeron55, always blame hmmmm 20:02 Warr1024 I noticed that the ID assigned server-side to hud elements on reconnect are different for different connections, even though I thought players were disposed each time... 20:02 smoke_fumus wait...wait wait wait wait. 20:02 smoke_fumus you control hud elements...serverside? 20:02 smoke_fumus wat? 20:02 Warr1024 smoke_fumus: you can 20:02 smoke_fumus why? 20:02 Warr1024 it don't work, but you can :-) 20:02 smoke_fumus you shouldn't 20:02 smoke_fumus this is awful 20:02 Warr1024 yes you should 20:03 smoke_fumus no you shouldn't 20:03 celeron55 *additional hud elements 20:03 smoke_fumus gui == clientside 20:03 Warr1024 how else can I add gauges? 20:03 kaeza celeron55, that looks like an issue in the HUD core (i.e. the original version) 20:03 smoke_fumus this looks more like crutch rather than gauge 20:04 * ShadowBot wakes up 20:04 kaeza or maybe hmmmm's rework, dunno 20:04 * ShadowBot sleeps 20:04 sfan5 !op MinetestBot 20:04 Warr1024 don't know what you mean, smoke_fumus. I want to add stamina to my mod, and need some way to let the player see it while moving around. 20:04 sfan5 ShadowBot: op MinetestBot 20:04 kaeza I only touched the rendering parts 20:04 sfan5 ShadowNinja: it somehow doesn't seem to work 20:04 smoke_fumus Warr1024: control variable of stamina. but let clientside to work with hud 20:04 celeron55 Warr1024: smoke_fumus is talking on a design level 20:04 Warr1024 any chance that the player hud array isn't being initialized or disposed of properly? 20:05 sfan5 http://minetest.net/ 20:05 Warr1024 smoke_fumus: there IS no client-side. 20:05 sfan5 !title 20:05 MinetestBot NameError: global name 'self' is not defined (file "/home/user/mtbot/modules/title.py", line 22, in f_title) 20:05 smoke_fumus Warr1024: wat? 20:05 sfan5 wat? 20:05 smoke_fumus WAAAAT? 20:05 kaeza wut 20:05 smoke_fumus what did you smoked? 20:05 Warr1024 all my mod code runs server-side. 20:05 Jordach weed. my choice. 20:05 celeron55 minetest doesn't run any mod code on the client side 20:05 smoke_fumus Warr1024: you are a bad, BAD MAN 20:05 ShadowNinja sfan5: You need to have the owner capability to bypass lobotomies it seems. 20:05 smoke_fumus and you should be ASHAMED of YOURSELF 20:05 Warr1024 ha 20:05 kaeza smoke_fumus, double past tense 20:05 kaeza did you smoked? <--- wut 20:06 Issa kaeza, i think he smole 20:06 Issa :/ 20:06 Calinou smole, lol 20:06 smoke_fumus lol 20:06 Calinou smoke_fumus, go add client side modding 20:06 Warr1024 if I add a variable server-side and want the client to have some way to display it, I either need to push instructions to add a HUD to the client, or I need to push code to do the same. 20:06 smoke_fumus Calinou: this feature should be natively in the game 20:06 smoke_fumus if it isn't there - somebody forgot to do his homework 20:06 Warr1024 s/feature/flaw 20:07 Calinou do it then 20:07 smoke_fumus i'm not minetest developer 20:07 Calinou also add nouveau reclocking while you're at it, since you seem to be so good at programming :P 20:07 smoke_fumus nor core developer, neither side developer 20:07 Warr1024 keeping all the modding stuff server-side was a very nice design. 20:07 smoke_fumus BULL! 20:07 kaeza smoke_fumus, since stamina or otherwise would be calc'ed server-side, you'd need to transmit the value over network anyway 20:07 smoke_fumus all logics yes 20:07 smoke_fumus all visuals - BULL 20:07 celeron55 if you don't develop, then you can't blame anyone; that's the rule here 20:07 Issa well 20:07 Warr1024 it means that you can connect to any server without needing to download the exact matching set of corresponding client mods to whatever is running on the server. 20:08 Issa good night 20:08 sapier still some sort of limited client side modding might be interesting too 20:08 Warr1024 much nicer than the way it was over on MC. 20:08 * ShadowBot wakes up 20:08 celeron55 sapier: for some simple responsive effects, yes 20:08 sapier not as powerfull as server side modding 20:08 smoke_fumus Warr1024: or you can do it spoutcraft way with server giving client http link on client sides of its mods 20:08 Warr1024 allowing clients to be modded = nice. requiring existing mods be split between server and client = bull. 20:08 * ShadowBot sleeps 20:08 smoke_fumus which is way nicer 20:08 kaeza smoke_fumus, also, the work needed to prevent cheating with client-side mods would be enormous 20:08 sfan5 http://minetest.net/ 20:08 sfan5 !title 20:08 MinetestBot NameError: global name 'self' is not defined (file "/home/user/mtbot/modules/title.py", line 90, in f_title) 20:08 sfan5 damnit 20:08 smoke_fumus kaeza: hur hur hur no. easy. 20:08 Jordach lololololol 20:08 sapier e.g some small on_punch actions that predict server side changes 20:08 Calinou !title or GTFO 20:08 MinetestBot Calinou: Can't connect to http://or GTFO 20:08 PilzAdam sfan5, I consider this spam 20:09 smoke_fumus kaeza: you detach backend of mod from frontend. you move all visuals to frontend, but leave all logicwork to backend. backend runs on server. frontend runs on client 20:09 kaeza smoke_fumus, then code it 8) 20:09 smoke_fumus done. 20:09 smoke_fumus but you also need to code in enviroment. 20:10 smoke_fumus kaeza: mate this is common sense programming 20:10 Warr1024 smoke_fumus: ick; not having to have a separate front-end and back-end side to mods was one of the things that attracted me to minetest in the first place. 20:10 Calinou how would you implement the client side API, smoke_fumus? 20:10 Calinou first, you need to create some kind of conventions 20:10 kaeza smoke_fumus, less chat, more code 20:10 Calinou then add client-server linking (else it's not really useful) 20:11 sapier I was more thinking about sever telling client what to execute 20:11 khonkhortisan and server→client installing 20:11 smoke_fumus Calinou: easy enough. give it Widget namespace and desired calls which can be called through it + ability to read variables from server on demand but use dynamically generated magicNumber to prevent ddos 20:11 celeron55 smoke_fumus: where do you think the visuals are, if not in the frontend? what you see on the screen is drawn by the client after all 20:11 sapier thus mod is not installed on client but still on server and transfered on connect ... but this is a very dangerous action 20:11 smoke_fumus so 20:11 Warr1024 ok, is it just me, or is the HUD not being initialized in the Player.cpp constructor... but shouldn't it be...? 20:11 kaeza > read variables from server on demand 20:12 kaeza ^ latency? 20:12 celeron55 sapier: lua can be sandboxed for such use, it's not an issue 20:12 smoke_fumus kaeza: with magic number which generated each keyframe 20:12 smoke_fumus so client will not be able to custom-hack 20:12 kaeza lol 20:12 smoke_fumus + check md5 of mod file 20:12 smoke_fumus on connection 20:12 smoke_fumus so if any changes - drop the fucker 20:12 sapier yes there are actions to make it safe but they need to be implemented 20:13 kaeza smoke_fumus, again, less chat, more code 20:13 smoke_fumus kaeza: well do it 20:13 sapier implementing it same way current server side implementation is done would be crazy 20:13 celeron55 sapier: do you seriously think we would pass in client-side lua without proper sandboxing? 20:13 smoke_fumus i already explained how to 20:13 celeron55 sapier: no we would not 20:13 Warr1024 huh? 20:13 Warr1024 are you talking about problems with servers pushing malicious code to the client, or the client trying to cheat with a modded interface? 20:13 Warr1024 if the latter, they already can cheat, and there's literally nothing you can do abou tit. 20:13 sfan5 http://minetest.net/ 20:13 sfan5 !title 20:13 MinetestBot sfan5: Minetest 20:13 sapier celeron55 I'd wish there were more ppl having this attitude ;-) 20:13 celeron55 sapier: if you do, i take that as an insult 20:14 smoke_fumus Warr1024: Durr. no. you can do alot about it. MD5 checksum checking on connection to example 20:14 sapier I know you're concerned about security too celeron 20:15 celeron55 smoke_fumus: we do not, will not, and cannot use validation of client-side code 20:15 smoke_fumus yes you can, you must and you will 20:15 celeron55 smoke_fumus: only those who distribute their clients as proprietary binary blobs can attempt such 20:15 smoke_fumus it is not about general client we talk about 20:15 sfan5 before anybody does anything? why MD5? its insecure 20:15 smoke_fumus but about its files 20:15 sapier war1024 cheating is only a "minor" issue at least I'm concerned about server pushing malicious code 20:15 smoke_fumus and mods 20:15 smoke_fumus sfan5: sha256 then 20:15 Warr1024 MD5 to check what? 20:15 Warr1024 you mean to check the client binaries? 20:15 Warr1024 aside from breaking portability, all that would do is convince hackers they have to send a fake MD5 anyway. 20:16 Warr1024 no, actually proprietary binary blobs are also vulnerable 20:16 smoke_fumus Warr1024: to check lua modfiles 20:16 celeron55 smoke_fumus: so? the user can just modify the client's code to tell the server it's using what the server wants it to use, while it uses something else 20:16 celeron55 you can't limit the client by telling it what it should limit 20:16 Calinou lol, checking client binaries, overrated thing noone does today :P 20:16 smoke_fumus well. you built it insecure like that 20:16 smoke_fumus not me 20:16 Warr1024 built what? the end-user's computer? 20:17 smoke_fumus server-client code 20:17 Warr1024 that's the issue here: the client runs entirely on a computer that's outside of the control of minetest devs 20:17 celeron55 minetest's server-client operation is currently quite uncheatable for exactly the reason that mods run on the server 20:17 thexyz wallhack 20:17 smoke_fumus ugh. it is just about how do you interact through network 20:17 thexyz flying, speedhack 20:17 sapier there are some things that can be done to improove minetest security ... I've allready created a proove of concept changeset 20:17 Warr1024 flying and speedhack could be dealt with server-side 20:18 celeron55 thexyz: that isn't checked, but could be if someone cares enough to do it 20:18 Warr1024 wallhack is not protectable unless you do raytracing server-side, god forbid. 20:18 celeron55 thexyz: it's not technically impossible, which matters 20:18 Calinou they are already dealt with 20:18 sapier still atm I prefere my lua api fixes (way to multithreading) to be included first ;-) 20:18 Calinou but with lag there are lots of false positives :P 20:18 Calinou flying, not 20:18 Calinou but speedhack, yes 20:18 thexyz some people from my server decided to use cheatengine to "speed up" minetest 20:18 Calinou we still lack noclip protection though (idea: set damage to 20/second in normal nodes that have full block collision) 20:19 Calinou thexyz, how did they go through the speedhack protection? 20:19 sapier guys there are so much bugs in minetest that could be used to cheat is it really of any use to discuss about client verification? 20:19 Calinou glitch ladders :D 20:20 celeron55 thexyz: how did that end up :P 20:20 thexyz Calinou: no idea 20:24 kaeza smoke_fumus, rule #1 of the internet: never trust the client 20:24 kaeza smoke_fumus, rule #-1 of the internet: rules and numbers are arbitrary 20:25 Calinou actually, you should trust the client 20:25 Calinou else lag will be obvious 20:25 Calinou this is why playing quake 1 based games with 100+ ping sucks 20:25 Warr1024 rule #0: start numbering at zero, dammit. 20:25 tripod Calinou: who dare waketh me 20:25 Calinou while it's fine to play quake 3 based games with 100+ ping 20:25 Calinou me 20:25 khonkhortisan rule #1b you're always going to be off by one 20:25 Calinou because Q3 trusts the client more, and the prediction was built in too 20:26 Calinou but cube 2 is even better at this 20:26 smoke_fumus Warr1024: that's networking coding rules 20:26 Calinou and of course, minecraft/minetest 20:26 smoke_fumus not internet rules 20:26 Calinou lag should never be obvious 20:26 Calinou --c-fifty-five 20:26 PilzAdam *see-fifty-five 20:27 Calinou there is 20:27 Calinou small, but I can notice it 20:39 kaeza1 https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7439435264/h45FA898B/ 20:41 kaeza the developers of minetest, https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7439253760/hC9BFBD1F/ 20:42 PilzAdam is that eclipse? 20:43 smoke_fumus kaeza: there is third pic. 'my code works only 1 time out of 5. i have no idea why' and 'my code has a fatal error. gdb says 'segfault'' 20:43 smoke_fumus :D 20:43 sapier seams to be eclipse yes 20:43 smoke_fumus yes that is eclipse 20:43 Warr1024 fuck, found a fix for bug 711 20:43 PilzAdam *seems 20:44 Warr1024 apparently the player objects are being reused between connections 20:44 sapier argh wrong again ... seems seems seems ... :-) 20:44 Warr1024 calling player->hud.clear() before the scriptapi line in emergePlayer in server.cpp seems to fix it. 20:48 celeron55 Warr1024: this is very useful info in fixing of the bug 20:48 Warr1024 I was actually about to amend a diff to my issue report :-) 20:49 smoke_fumus also guys. speaking of security and threading in opensource. there is best example of opensource up to date - springrts engine 20:49 smoke_fumus not only it is secure as 9 circles of hell, and robust as turboturd but also extremely powerful up to AAA code grade 20:50 Warr1024 I posted a diff 20:50 smoke_fumus + it uses lua for scripting 20:50 Warr1024 one of these days I'll setup a proper fork from which I can push back mergereqs... 20:52 celeron55 smoke_fumus: does spring-rts use the traditional lockstep model? 20:52 Warr1024 anyway, that patch seems to make the problem go away, but it seems like there's a larger issue of player objects being reused (if a player disconnects, the object is kept for when they rejoin) with no reinitialization that I could see. 20:52 smoke_fumus i..have...urm..actually i have no clue 20:54 smoke_fumus but i can tell you that is supports up to 64000 units on battlefield simultaneously (although it is engine restriction - actual restriction depends on your cpu. mine handles ~8000) 20:55 smoke_fumus + it has most interesting rts feature so far - dynamic client reconnection and specator reconnection (it not sending current frame but rather frames from 0 up to current on enhanced speed to let client catchup) 20:55 celeron55 the lockstep is something only strategy games can use because it requires a constant delay of a few RTTs to all player input, and in turn allows the network protocol to consist solely of player input while each peer runs the exact same simulation 20:55 smoke_fumus *specator connection on the go 20:55 smoke_fumus oh...yes then i believe it does 20:56 smoke_fumus although you will need to ask core devs about it 20:56 celeron55 well based on the characteristics yoy said, it's somewhat obvious 20:56 celeron55 you* 20:56 smoke_fumus besides. it is total annihilation reverse-enginered port with enhanced features 20:56 celeron55 also that dynamic client reconnection isn't particularly special 20:56 celeron55 OpenTTD has had it for a long time 20:57 celeron55 (it also uses lockstep AFAIK) 20:57 smoke_fumus celeron55: not when you has 8000 units on battlefield with at least 25 variables each 20:58 smoke_fumus not reconnection but also raw connection. you can join in middle of battle and after catching up host can pass command of 1 player to you 20:58 smoke_fumus drop-in, drop-out gameplay. in rts. 20:58 smoke_fumus i know openttd has it 20:58 smoke_fumus but its openttd 20:58 smoke_fumus it has way lesser units 20:58 celeron55 well, openttd is RTS 20:59 smoke_fumus its a matter scale 20:59 smoke_fumus openttd has properties detached from graphics as far as i remember. and properties structs there are fairly small 21:00 smoke_fumus in springrts they are somewhat more massive 21:01 celeron55 but anyway, what's the point? 21:01 smoke_fumus point is - lookup its code and learn about client-server mods through lua and security of it in general 21:02 celeron55 we can't do the same thing in MT 21:02 celeron55 as i said, it only works for strategy games where input can always be delayed for a few hundred milliseconds 21:02 NakedFury how weird that celeron is still here 21:02 sapier our primary problem isn't we don't know how to do it but how to keep compatibility ;-) 21:03 smoke_fumus if it will be up to general changes - break the fucking compatability to smitherines if it means you can create something more usable out of core 21:03 celeron55 i for sure know how to do such but it isn't applicable at all here 21:03 celeron55 sapier is talking straight-up bullshit and i don't know why 21:03 smoke_fumus xD 21:03 smoke_fumus i figured that much 21:04 smoke_fumus celeron55: that gave me a good laugh. thanks. 21:05 sapier what I was trying to tell is adding security isn't that complicated but adding it in a way that community accepts it is difficult 21:06 NakedFury add it. if they dont want it then they can take the highway 21:06 celeron55 well that's an another issue and not really even an issue in the first place 21:06 NakedFury my way or the highway 21:06 sapier but thats an annoying issue ;-) at least to me :-) 21:07 celeron55 afaik you already have the code done? where was it left the last time? 21:07 celeron55 was it related to the scriptapi rework or something 21:08 sapier no I haven't added it to scriptapi rework in order to get better chances the scriptapi work is merged 21:09 celeron55 speaking of which, could you please tell sometime on #-dev if you wish to have an api code freeze for that, or do you currently have an up-to-date pull request? 21:09 sapier it's not a big deal to be added there either cleaned up scriptapi architecture is way more compatible to security fixes 21:09 sapier I'll recheck it's been up to date 2 weeks ago when I rebased it to master 21:10 sapier and yes if there's a chance of freez I'll take it 21:10 celeron55 it's not about chance 21:10 celeron55 it's about you clearly telling to everyone when it starts and stops 21:10 celeron55 last time it wasn't clear enough, if there even was a time 21:11 sapier ok if this is my decision I'd prefere freeze till saturday 11pm gmt to rebase and prepare for merge 21:13 celeron55 add scriptapi to that and shout it on #-dev 21:14 NakedFury with what you learned when making minetest, if you could go back and start it over. What would you change? 21:15 celeron55 NakedFury: maybe approximately everything; altough that doesn't imply anything better 21:16 PilzAdam would you even start again? 21:17 celeron55 that's impossible to judge; in this reality MT exists and it makes it worthless to start anew 21:18 smoke_fumus celeron55: ok. now question about mt. do you reuse verticles? i mean to example you have your chunk and there are planes which use simmiliar uv coordinates of atlas. do you merge their verticles together? 21:19 smoke_fumus *vertices 21:20 smoke_fumus FFFF~ i always forget how to type this word 21:20 celeron55 texture atlas was discarded as partically useless a while ago - also MT's lighting requires most vertices to remain in any case 21:21 smoke_fumus so no merging....this seems....unwise for lack of better term 21:22 khonkhortisan keep changing it until the lighting isn't wrong 21:22 celeron55 you're getting stuck in all kinds of things that are really minor 21:22 Warr1024 what would inefficient vertex use even cause? poor FPS due to GPU bottleneck? I don't have any such problem even on my Atom n450 with integrated graphics... 21:23 Warr1024 Unless I'm swarmed by CAO's, I get the feeling most of my CPU power goes to chunk receive and decode, which is probably my worst bottleneck. 21:24 celeron55 but of course again if you wish to implement such, i don't think anyone would complain 8) 21:24 celeron55 Warr1024: inefficient vertice use will, well, overally degrade rendering performance 21:25 celeron55 probably quite linearly for certain parts of rendering 21:25 celeron55 (wich may or may not mean anything in the full rendering cycle, depending on everything) 21:26 Warr1024 "depending on everything" <- not a comforting concept :-) 21:26 celeron55 well that's what you get on today's complicated hardware, an optimization can either make something faster or do nothing :P 21:26 Warr1024 or slower, sometimes 21:27 celeron55 really currently a bigger bottleneck is the mesh generation speed rather than the speed of drawing meshes 21:28 Warr1024 reminds me of http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=15 21:28 celeron55 (depending on in what kind of a situation the player is in the game) 21:28 Warr1024 celeron55: yes, I can feel the mesh generation bottleneck alright. 21:28 Warr1024 walking from chunk to chunk gives me a lag spike every so often, no problems standing still. 21:29 celeron55 on an N450 you'll feel it right in your butt because it's a single-core processor 21:29 celeron55 it'll directly eat your FPS 8) 21:29 Warr1024 I gots the hyperthreading now though :-D 21:29 celeron55 on a dual core you just get more heat as the other core crunches the meshes away 21:30 Warr1024 (not that HT ever gives predictable performance benefits...) 21:30 Warr1024 yeah, generating optimized meshes when most of the world is solid stone surrounded on all sides by more solid stone is probably quite tricky. 21:31 smoke_fumus well, guys on unity3d did that. 21:31 smoke_fumus i mean reusing vertices is sides quads are near and share same atlas coordinates 21:32 smoke_fumus *on 21:32 smoke_fumus *IF 21:32 smoke_fumus *of quads 21:32 celeron55 Warr1024: well, considering rotations of nodes and all that, it does get a bit hairy 21:33 celeron55 smoke_fumus: minetest does a bit of that 21:34 smoke_fumus heheh. 21:34 celeron55 smoke_fumus: it just isn't particularly good at it; but i can assure you there are some connected faces like that when you walk around 21:34 smoke_fumus which basically connected if they share same texture. right? 21:34 celeron55 especially on flat ground 21:34 smoke_fumus celeron55: are you on windowS? 21:35 celeron55 we have zero core developers who use windows 21:35 smoke_fumus DAMN. 21:35 celeron55 it's useless for developing 21:35 Warr1024 what's a windows? 21:35 smoke_fumus celeron55: not it doesn't. if you use mingw that is 21:35 celeron55 it can run the end result though so we make builds for it, for whoever uses it 21:36 smoke_fumus on corebuilding - i agree it is useless 21:36 PilzAdam smoke_fumus, I can run mingw on Linux too 21:36 smoke_fumus yeaaa, but i meant windows development 21:36 celeron55 Warr1024: i hear it's some kind of program code the murricans sell with high price to each other 21:36 smoke_fumus whenever i'm outside interpreted languages and unity3d i use eclipse ide + mingw on windows 21:36 Warr1024 celeron55: not true: it's actually a form of tax on new computers. 21:37 smoke_fumus and i'm not planning moving out untill autodesk and adobe will make 3dsmax and photoshop for linux 21:37 smoke_fumus until then - hell no 21:37 Warr1024 3dsmax and photoshop? are those like some kind of windows-world equivalent of blender and gimp? 21:38 iqualfragile1 yep 21:38 smoke_fumus blender and gimp are mediocre lackluster clones of 3dsmax and photoshop 21:38 smoke_fumus i take it back 21:38 smoke_fumus blender is shitty clone of maya 21:38 iqualfragile1 well… actualy blender got quite usable lately 21:38 iqualfragile1 and cammeratracing is awsome 21:38 smoke_fumus i tried recent versions 21:39 Warr1024 I find that the extra time it takes to do what I want to in gimp is time that I would have spent waiting for photoshop to load, anyway. 21:39 smoke_fumus iqualfragile1: polish a turd its still a turd :D 21:39 celeron55 tbh new versions of gimp suck 21:39 smoke_fumus gimp suck in general 21:39 celeron55 they should've stopped at 2.6 21:39 celeron55 or 2.4 21:39 Warr1024 yeah, I don't like some of the changes they made to their UI, for sure. 21:39 smoke_fumus Warr1024: also. use 64bit photoshop 21:39 smoke_fumus it is almost insta-loading 21:40 smoke_fumus that is if you have your 4-8 and above gb of memory 21:40 kaeza1 aww... single window Gimp 2.8 is lovely 21:40 smoke_fumus wait...WAIT 21:40 celeron55 Warr1024: 2.8 also has bugs that make it behave very annoyingly with my window manager 21:40 celeron55 (altough all other WMs tend to handle it sanely) 21:40 smoke_fumus kaeza1: did 2.8 finally moved panels in column-tabs like in photoshop since cs3? 21:41 Warr1024 celeron55: which wm? 21:41 celeron55 smoke_fumus: i have no idea what "panels in column-tabs like in photoshop since cs3" means but gimp 2.8 has a more or less working single windo mode 21:41 celeron55 Warr1024: icewm 21:41 celeron55 single window mode* 21:41 Warr1024 ah, I used that for a while, back when xfce was just too bloatey. 21:41 smoke_fumus *looks at screenshots* oh FINALLY. they made it usable 21:41 smoke_fumus downloading 21:42 celeron55 xfce is still too bloaty, and unpolished 21:42 kaeza1 celeron55, which WM? 21:42 kaeza1 smoke_fumus, PS is a pile of shit. don't ever mention it in my presence 21:42 Warr1024 lol 21:42 smoke_fumus kaeza1: i can tell you above few dozens of prooves that this statement is full of bull 21:42 celeron55 lol isn't that a bit aggravating 21:43 NakedFury one windowed gimp? the world will end soon 21:43 Warr1024 frankly though, I rarely use gimp anymore now that I know inkscape pretty well. 21:43 kaeza1 IDK, I only talk BS 'cause I don't use Gimp or PS :P 21:43 smoke_fumus Warr1024: what about sai? 21:43 NakedFury I always use paint.net 21:43 Warr1024 smoke_fumus: what's sai? 21:43 kaeza1 ASEprite :3 21:44 celeron55 i use gimp, because there just isn't other software for linux that does what i need 21:44 smoke_fumus one of the best image editors if you have graphical tablet 21:44 Warr1024 ah, I ain't got one of those. 21:44 Warr1024 I find inkscape to be one of the better ways to work around the lack of a tablet... 21:44 smoke_fumus i mean - sai paint tool just meant to be used for graphical tablet 21:44 iqualfragile1 inkscape takes like hours to start up 21:45 smoke_fumus it can be used for direct mouse manipulation - but its power is in custom drawing with different pressures 21:45 smoke_fumus something that you can't achieve with mouse button 21:45 iqualfragile1 and yeah, inkscape is an grapics editor, gimp is an immage manipulator 21:45 khonkhortisan click the button really fast for more pressure 21:45 * smoke_fumus slaps khonkhortisan in forehead 21:46 Warr1024 I used to draw in gimp, but now what I do in inkscape is probably more accurately described as "2d modelling" 21:46 iqualfragile1 i know, i like inkscape but it just takes hours to start up 21:46 smoke_fumus Warr1024: corel draw anyone? 21:46 Warr1024 heh, I think they used to have those on the macs back in my high school... 21:46 NakedFury I wish the ipad was more precise for paint programs. even with a pen for painting I can rarely continue a line 21:46 iqualfragile1 additionaly its hard to keep inkscape-generated files in an repository as they optimize the path atribute for size in inkscape svgs 21:47 iqualfragile1 wich is nonsense 21:47 Warr1024 well, gotta go 21:47 Warr1024 see y'all later. 21:48 smoke_fumus *looks at single window gimp mode* this is exactly what i wanted from this editor 21:48 smoke_fumus awesome. 21:48 khonkhortisan But now when you open a jpg, edit it, re-save the jpg, and quit, it complains that the .xcf was modified. 21:49 smoke_fumus wat 21:49 smoke_fumus Wat? 21:50 khonkhortisan Until you save as .xcf, your image "isn't saved". 21:50 khonkhortisan only exported, where you can lose the original 21:50 smoke_fumus john_minetest: corel draw is like the oldest of vector editors and as likely most powerful of them 21:50 khonkhortisan even if the export is the true original 21:50 smoke_fumus that's a bug 21:50 smoke_fumus not a feature 21:50 khonkhortisan both 21:50 kaeza1 khonkhortisan, stupid "feature" if you ask me 21:51 smoke_fumus .....hell, entire windows milleniums is a feature and not a bug as microsoft says. 21:51 smoke_fumus *millenium 21:52 smoke_fumus although - technically speaking - ideas behind it is beyond awesome. 16bit media center based system, something which were basis for windows media center edition 21:52 smoke_fumus but execution is. ya all know the drill 21:53 smoke_fumus :D 22:22 Kacey http://ifunny.mobi/f/SHbJAXt01 22:30 bcnjr5 Z̸̢͖̩̮̫̩̝̣̠̹͈̯͚̗̹͇̣̝ͨ͗͒ͧ̄̍̔̾̇͆̾̋̿̕͢͟A̵̸̲͍̬̻̯͓̋̍̉͑ͭ͗̏̂̾̇̏̔̎̎̚͠L̷̸̵̪̖̹̹̯̤̥͉̃ͩ̎ͣ͋͛͐̎̽ͨ͂͐ͭ̂ͧͪ̔͂ͮ͟ͅG̺̮͍̦͈̱̱̳̟̗̯̣͕͆͂̿̑͗̇ͪ̏̾͊̿ͤͯͣ͑̓͘̕͜͞Ơ̶̛̠̘̰̮̲̘͓͖̝̯̻̱̆͌̓̅̂̒͗̿͊̓ͧ̅̈͞!̷̴̴͍͍̯̦̳̮͚̝̠̣̲̪͈̻̽ͧ̃ͩ̓ͨ̊ͦ̀̑̏̊͂̓̇̋͜͠ 22:30 smoke_fumus bcnjr5: OUT! 22:30 bcnjr5 What? 22:30 smoke_fumus wat was that? 22:30 bcnjr5 Unicode? 22:31 smoke_fumus ... 22:31 bcnjr5 ¯\(°_o)/¯ 22:32 thexyz woo! 22:33 thexyz http://buildbot.minetest.net/build/TA8fphUJsoVfBsofo9MKUi 22:33 smoke_fumus ---- 22:34 khonkhortisan that doesn't display right at all for me, starting selection at the right, I can go either way and it makes it longer 22:41 thexyz oh, well 22:41 thexyz it failed anyway 22:42 PilzAdam thexyz, but it failed epicly because everyone can see it! 22:45 thexyz i wonder why was it looking for intl.lib.lib 22:48 lordcirth Could someone explain how to register a node as a digilines effector / receiver? 22:49 iqualfragile1 nice a buildbot 22:50 lordcirth I've set effector{action=on_receive_digilines} but a print statement in on_receive_digilines never runs 22:50 khonkhortisan digiline = { receptor = {}, effector = { action = func() }, }, 22:51 lordcirth khonkhortisan: the declaration in effector{} needs the args as well? 22:51 lordcirth khonkhortisan: I'm using digilines_rtc for sample code 22:51 khonkhortisan no it's just the name of a function 22:52 lordcirth khonkhortisan: no () after? 22:52 khonkhortisan action = on_digiline_receive 22:52 lordcirth khonkhortisan: because that part of my code is identical to RTC, but it doesn't run 22:52 khonkhortisan Does your function have the same four arguments? 22:53 lordcirth khonkhortisan: yes 22:53 khonkhortisan setchan and timeofday don't need to be their own variables 22:54 khonkhortisan May I see the code? 22:55 thexyz okay, let's try again http://buildbot.minetest.net/build/C3aEeqfpNpJkXSQetXxCvC 22:56 lordcirth khonkhortisan: http://bpaste.net/show/97827/ 22:57 khonkhortisan You sometimes do and don't put spaces around your equals 22:58 lordcirth khonkhortisan: bad form? 23:00 khonkhortisan Does it depend on digilines? 23:00 lordcirth khonkhortisan: fixed. yes, default and digilines 23:02 thexyz well, fuck it 23:02 thexyz i'd better go to sleep 23:03 thexyz last try http://buildbot.minetest.net/build/jj6CFTLtTB7T7DSa6HkmV6 23:04 khonkhortisan worksforme digiline_send("1","2") message received 23:05 lordcirth khonkhortisan: you used a luacontroller to send the message? 23:06 khonkhortisan yep 23:08 lordcirth khonkhortisan: that works for me too - wierd 23:08 khonkhortisan what doesn't work? 23:08 lordcirth sending from digipad to lcd works, but not digipad -> wireless:trans 23:09 lordcirth and digipad -> luacontroller works too 23:12 lordcirth khonkhortisan: maybe I broke my digipad code? rolling back 23:14 lordcirth khonkhortisan: well that would do it, apparently I commented out receptor={} in digipad/init.lua 23:15 khonkhortisan so it wasn't being sent then 23:16 lordcirth khonkhortisan: apparently. Thanks! 23:20 * Kacey wants to help develop a wireless digilines mod! 23:24 Kacey http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5649062/digipad-v3.zip lordcirth 23:26 RealBadAngel hi all 23:27 Kacey can you send me an updated link? 23:28 lordcirth Kacey: check out digipadv6: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5649062/Minetest%20mods/digipadv6.zip 23:28 lordcirth Kacey: digipad now has buttons to select channel, and there's now a hardened digipad 23:29 Kacey lol ok 23:31 Kacey whatare the channel names? 23:31 lordcirth Kacey: "keypad1" "keypad2" "keypad3" 23:32 lordcirth Kacey: hardened digipad has identical code, just texture and groups are different. it has the same dig properties as a steel block. 23:34 lordcirth Kacey: I would be happy to have help with wireless 23:34 Kacey how do i use an interupt command? 23:35 lordcirth Kacey: http://mesecons.net/luacontroller/ 23:37 Kacey i need to close my door after 5 seconds 23:38 harrison http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt5SS67TE7c 23:38 lordcirth Kacey: should I make wireless infinite range? its looking like it would be simplest, if a 1 sec delay for abm is ok 23:39 lordcirth Kacey: interrupt(5,"closeDoor") 23:39 lordcirth Kacey: then at the beginning of the code, check if event.iid=="closeDoor" 23:43 harrison so the mesecons controller is an inworld IDE for a lua script 23:43 harrison i suppose minecraft has something similar 23:43 harrison i wonder what language 23:44 harrison second life's scripting is much more baroque 23:44 khonkhortisan it is a malformed sandbox 23:44 harrison sl? 23:44 khonkhortisan keywords cannot be redefined, so it does a simple string search. 23:45 khonkhortisan "--fork = spoon" will blacklist your script 23:45 RealBadAngel ive seen many in mc. best one is 6502 cpu with complete hardware, programmable in asm, and forth compiler wrote in it 23:45 lordcirth RealBadAngel: A Forth compiler? that's amazing 23:45 harrison redefinition forbidden to to prevent attacks ? 23:45 khonkhortisan to prevent slowdown/freezing only 23:46 khonkhortisan you can attack just by installing a mod 23:46 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, thats a VMception! 23:46 RealBadAngel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pyrTM_aZQI 23:46 harrison for both SL scripting and minetest scripting, the client program is coded in a statically compiled language 23:47 lordcirth khonkhortisan: installing a mod on the client doesn't affect a server you connect to, does it? 23:47 khonkhortisan correct 23:47 khonkhortisan it only mods the singleplayer game 23:47 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, we could have easily programmable computer in minetest too 23:47 lordcirth khonkhortisan: so that's not really an "attack" like he probably meant 23:47 harrison thus scripting is in an interpreted language differing from the host language 23:48 khonkhortisan os.execute ftw 23:48 RealBadAngel but it would requite core code for it to work 23:48 harrison i wondered -- is this restriction inevitable? 23:48 khonkhortisan luacontrollers start with core lua keywords which cannot be redefined, then add some string, math, and api stuff to it. 23:49 harrison or can static code be compiled and injected into a running virtual world? 23:49 RealBadAngel http://libz80.sourceforge.net/ 23:49 harrison the answer is yes of course 23:49 harrison http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOocN1BKjh0 23:50 PilzAdam can somone just fork Minetest and turn it into an OS? 23:50 harrison you are all welcome to join #spasim 23:50 khonkhortisan Not until you can mod in-game 23:51 PilzAdam harrison, what is this spasim? 23:51 PilzAdam (I have seen the videos) 23:51 harrison spasim.org 23:51 sapier self modifying code is very bad style ;-) (don't tell me there might be some reasons thats true but not a common usecase) 23:52 harrison sapier: are you responding to my description ? 23:52 lordcirth How bad of a mem leak would it be to append all wireless msgs, short strings, to an array that never erased? 23:52 harrison i never worry about such things 23:52 sapier no just read this conversation and what you describe is self modifying code 23:53 harrison no, it isn't 23:53 harrison no code is ever modified at runtime 23:53 harrison new code is compiled and injected 23:54 sapier if you write new code to be executed somewhere this is same as self modifying 23:54 harrison or rather introjected 23:54 harrison You seem to know a lot for someone who has no idea what I am talking about. 23:54 RealBadAngel anyone good in blender here? 23:55 harrison that's not funny 23:55 harrison my aunt died in an industrial blender 23:56 lordcirth harrison: were you responding to me when you said "i never worry about such things" ? 23:56 sapier you try to create an interpreter for code within an os like system run within an interpreter run on top of a compiled application running within an os running on a processor 23:56 harrison never worry about mem leaks, yes 23:56 harrison see sapier? no idea 23:57 harrison interpreter lol 23:57 sapier lua is an interpreter in standard case 23:57 lordcirth If you declare an array, and set elements [1] and [100], do 2-99 use any/much RAM? 23:57 RealBadAngel and all runnin in matrix... ;) 23:58 harrison your weak attempt at invoking an infinite regress has failed 23:58 thexyz lordcirth: yes 23:58 harrison don't try to mise en abyme me 23:58 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, and the matrix is interpreted by the first named intepreter :D 23:58 sapier no most likely between "application running within " and "os .. " thers a "on top of wine" 23:58 lordcirth thexyz: as much as a large string? do all strings use the same amount of RAM, like ints do? 23:59 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, is it thread safe then? 23:59 harrison wine? you seem more like a ketamine type 23:59 thexyz lordcirth: what language are you writing in? how do you declare that array? 23:59 lordcirth thexyz: lua. I'm modding minetest here. 23:59 tripod awwwwwwwwwwwwww yeah 23:59 sapier harrison calm down and don't get personal it's not me suggesting creating some vm within mod api ;-)