| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:12 |
paramat |
i'm interested in having it, but not much interested in coding it :) |
| 00:24 |
Fixer |
oops |
| 00:35 |
* Megaf |
could be you-know-who and you would never imagine that |
| 00:46 |
Megaf |
I just did a /emergeblocks here 5000 |
| 00:46 |
Megaf |
I wonder what will happen |
| 00:47 |
Megaf |
]Segmentation fault |
| 00:47 |
Megaf |
That ^ |
| 01:05 |
Megaf |
so? |
| 01:27 |
|
EvergreenTree joined #minetest-hub |
| 01:27 |
IhrFussel |
What the heck was THAT ... it was a one-time spike it seems 2017-12-28 02:00:01: ACTION[Server]: AVG LAG: 0.150 (0 over 0.5 s, 0 over 1 s ... MAX LAG: 0.50000) 2017-12-28 02:01:01: ACTION[Server]: AVG LAG: 0.221 (1 over 0.5 s, 1 over 1 s ... MAX LAG: 19.49998) 2017-12-28 02:02:01: ACTION[Server]: AVG LAG: 0.150 (0 over 0.5 s, 0 over 1 s ... MAX LAG: 0.50000) |
| 01:33 |
Megaf |
Oh boy, I just found an old computer of mine, Athlon XP 2800+ in my closet |
| 01:33 |
Megaf |
plugged it in, and its bootin!!! |
| 01:36 |
Megaf |
oh boy, what password and users were I using several years ago? |
| 01:37 |
IhrFussel |
Guys, are such extreme lag spikes normal with VPS? Or was that likely something rare? |
| 01:37 |
Megaf |
I'd blame Minetest |
| 01:38 |
IhrFussel |
I can't blame MT when the avg lag was 0.150 99% of the time for hours and now suddenly and only once it says avg lag 0.221 with max_lag 19 |
| 01:40 |
sfan5 |
you can blame MT |
| 01:42 |
IhrFussel |
I checked the logs...there is nothing that could've caused a 20 second lag at that time ... it must either been an external process or someone hogging the shared CPU...not sure |
| 01:47 |
IhrFussel |
Maybe daily backup?? I will watch the behavior |
| 01:52 |
Megaf |
oh boy, there's a Minetest server in this computer that was in my closet |
| 01:52 |
Megaf |
oh boy |
| 01:55 |
IhrFussel |
Off for the night, see ya |
| 02:05 |
|
EvergreenTree joined #minetest-hub |
| 02:15 |
Sokomine |
megaf: one of your old servers? |
| 02:15 |
* Sokomine |
looks intrested |
| 02:15 |
Megaf |
Sokomine: early times of current V4 version |
| 02:15 |
Megaf |
server* |
| 02:15 |
Megaf |
179.179.75.90 30003 |
| 02:15 |
Megaf |
try to connect please |
| 02:16 |
Megaf |
you have to enable support for older servers |
| 02:16 |
Megaf |
0.4.9 :) |
| 02:31 |
Sokomine |
moment please :-) |
| 02:39 |
|
EvergreenTree joined #minetest-hub |
| 02:50 |
Megaf |
sofar: sfan5: I found an old 0.4.9 server of mine. I could connect to it just fine from a 0.4.16 client enabling the options to support old servers in advanced menu. But it looks like when other people try to connect, all they get is time out. Yet in the servers console it shows they entered wrong password. Any ideas? |
| 02:55 |
benrob0329 |
Found a problem with aliveai, it spawns waay too many mobs |
| 03:15 |
|
CBugDCoder joined #minetest-hub |
| 03:15 |
Sokomine |
benrob0329: perhaps. but they're very entertaining mobs |
| 03:17 |
Sokomine |
would really love to take a look at megafs old world but can't seem to connect. not even with older clients |
| 03:18 |
Megaf |
It might work now |
| 03:25 |
Sokomine |
thanks :-) it does work. nice to see an old map back again even if i hadn't built anything there |
| 03:30 |
Megaf |
I like the old textures |
| 03:35 |
Sokomine |
some where better. some not so |
| 03:35 |
Sokomine |
it's a mixed feeling... |
| 03:36 |
Sokomine |
at least cobble was stonebrick. that looked less bad on houses |
| 03:56 |
benrob0329 |
Sokomine: the problem is that it gets really laggy |
| 03:56 |
benrob0329 |
like boats are unusable, more than usual |
| 05:48 |
Megaf |
mt.megaf.info is pinging where for you? |
| 05:48 |
Megaf |
!up mt.megaf.info 30003 |
| 05:48 |
MinetestBot |
mt.megaf.info:30003 is up (10ms) |
| 05:48 |
Megaf |
oh |
| 05:52 |
Megaf |
!server Megaf |
| 05:52 |
MinetestBot |
Megaf: No results |
| 05:52 |
Megaf |
good night |
| 05:52 |
sofar |
Megaf: the init sequence changed several revisions ago, it's possible the new client no longer understands the old sequence |
| 05:53 |
Megaf |
sofar: sfan5: it was a missconfiguration of my local network |
| 05:53 |
Megaf |
It s just weird the terminal reporting wrong password |
| 05:53 |
Megaf |
the correct was time out the client was seeing |
| 05:53 |
Megaf |
well, good night, and thanks |
| 07:17 |
|
CWz joined #minetest-hub |
| 07:23 |
|
nerzhul joined #minetest-hub |
| 07:59 |
jas_ |
#6737 paramat it may be Low priority now, but I'd consider it High priority for a later release, if it included the touchscreen controls. |
| 07:59 |
jas_ |
aw |
| 07:59 |
jas_ |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/6737#issuecomment-354246374 |
| 07:59 |
jas_ |
!title |
| 07:59 |
MinetestBot |
jas_: Add main_menu_style setting by PorygonZRocks · Pull Request #6737 · minetest/minetest · GitHub |
| 09:49 |
|
sniper570 joined #minetest-hub |
| 11:11 |
|
nerzhul joined #minetest-hub |
| 11:50 |
|
Aerozoic joined #minetest-hub |
| 12:14 |
Aerozoic |
Wazup peeps. Anybody know why worldedit doesn't have a //cube command? |
| 12:19 |
Megaf |
!server Megaf |
| 12:19 |
MinetestBot |
Megaf: No results |
| 12:21 |
|
IhrFussel joined #minetest-hub |
| 12:21 |
Megaf |
!server Megaf |
| 12:21 |
MinetestBot |
Megaf: No results |
| 12:21 |
rubenwardy |
how do I fix the lighting after placing a large schematic? |
| 12:21 |
rubenwardy |
LVM? |
| 12:27 |
Megaf |
rubenwardy: select areas around it and replace air air |
| 12:27 |
rubenwardy |
heh |
| 12:27 |
rubenwardy |
that sounds inefficient |
| 12:28 |
rubenwardy |
this is going to be done by a mod, and needs to be as fast as possible |
| 12:29 |
rubenwardy |
ah, there's core.fix_light |
| 12:29 |
rubenwardy |
I'll try that |
| 12:35 |
rubenwardy |
aah damit it, it's because there stone above there |
| 12:36 |
Megaf |
Thanks |
| 12:36 |
Megaf |
!server Megaf |
| 12:36 |
MinetestBot |
Megaf: Megaf Server V4.17 | 5.196.88.227:30003 | Clients: 0/10, 0/0 | Version: 0.4.17-Megaf / MegafXploreNext | Ping: 11ms |
| 12:36 |
|
Fixer joined #minetest-hub |
| 12:37 |
Megaf |
!server Megaf |
| 12:37 |
MinetestBot |
Megaf: Megaf Server V4.17 | mt.megaf.info:30003 | Clients: 0/10, 0/0 | Version: 0.4.17-Megaf / MegafXploreNext | Ping: 11ms |
| 12:37 |
Megaf |
better |
| 12:50 |
IhrFussel |
2017-12-28 07:26:01: ACTION[Server]: AVG LAG: 0.275 (1 over 0.5 s, 1 over 1 s ... MAX LAG: 27.44995) +++ 2017-12-28 12:01:01: ACTION[Server]: AVG LAG: 0.262 (1 over 0.5 s, 1 over 1 s ... MAX LAG: 25.79996) +++ 2017-12-28 13:26:14: ACTION[Server]: AVG LAG: 0.376 (1 over 0.5 s, 1 over 1 s ... MAX LAG: 44.25007) |
| 12:50 |
|
Jordach joined #minetest-hub |
| 12:50 |
IhrFussel |
You CANNOT run a game server under such terrible circumstances |
| 12:50 |
Jordach |
says the person running a 2009 CPU |
| 12:51 |
Jordach |
:thinking: |
| 12:51 |
IhrFussel |
This is a VPS now |
| 12:51 |
Jordach |
kektus |
| 12:51 |
Jordach |
DO VPS weren't bad |
| 12:51 |
IhrFussel |
99% of the time PERFECT steps ... and then those huge lags once in a while |
| 12:52 |
IhrFussel |
My 2009 dedi never had such lags...it had consistent 1-2 sec lags |
| 12:53 |
IhrFussel |
I just called my hoster asking what kind of f*ckery that is and they told me to watch it some more and open a ticket with a screenshot of the lag times |
| 12:57 |
|
ThomasMonroe joined #minetest-hub |
| 13:00 |
sfan5 |
well yes |
| 13:01 |
sfan5 |
on a dedi you get consistent performance (even if that perf is bad) |
| 13:01 |
sfan5 |
on a vps you get good performance, but due to resource sharing that performance is inconsistent |
| 13:04 |
IhrFussel |
30+ secs lag is unacceptable for every kind of service...you cannot even reliable host a website on such a machine...but you know what's weird? I was able to use commands WHILE MT lagged so long...so was it just IO? |
| 13:04 |
Jordach |
>400mhz DDR2 |
| 13:04 |
Jordach |
there's your problem |
| 13:05 |
IhrFussel |
I'm not talking about my dedi, my new VPS has much better hardware |
| 13:05 |
IhrFussel |
But top showed only 0.50 load...that doesn't sound like a lot |
| 13:06 |
Jordach |
run screenfetch or similar to get CPU info |
| 13:07 |
IhrFussel |
It's not the hardware since MT runs *perfectly* outside of those extreme one-time spikes |
| 13:07 |
IhrFussel |
Or at least not the specs* |
| 13:07 |
Jordach |
still wise to get actual on paper specs |
| 13:07 |
Jordach |
and what mods do you ru |
| 13:08 |
IhrFussel |
The VPS is so powerful it stays at 0.15 max_lag with EIGHT players |
| 13:08 |
IhrFussel |
Trust me when I say it's not the specs...either another customer hogs the CPU at times or my hoster got an I/O problem |
| 13:09 |
Jordach |
it's why i asked you to show me your specs and modlist |
| 13:10 |
IhrFussel |
175 mods...all kinds of mods and the mods don't lag the server...maybe sometimes when many players use them excessively max_lag goes up to 0.5 but then quickly goes back to 0.15 which is the step interval I set (it can't go lower) |
| 13:11 |
IhrFussel |
There is no details about the RAM lshw just says "12 Gib memory" |
| 13:11 |
Jordach |
run screenfetch or similar |
| 13:12 |
Jordach |
CPU information will probably help |
| 13:12 |
IhrFussel |
model name: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-2680 v3 @ 2.50GHz |
| 13:13 |
IhrFussel |
I see 6 "cores" cause my VPS has 6 vCores |
| 13:14 |
Jordach |
https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare.php?cmp[]=2390&cmp[]=2185 |
| 13:14 |
Jordach |
my server runs the Atom |
| 13:15 |
Jordach |
and never goes above 0.1 max_lag |
| 13:15 |
Jordach |
scaleway generally has good shit, they're just unfortunately out of stock at the moment |
| 13:16 |
IhrFussel |
Like I said I'm sure iI could run my world @ 0.05 steps but I don't want to...I optimized my mods to operate at 0.15 sec steps |
| 13:16 |
Jordach |
why'd you think i do critical things for SP in their own time |
| 13:17 |
IhrFussel |
Since this is a VPS now the most logical reason for those one-time spikes is some asshole that's hogging the CPU for a bit with his heavy script |
| 13:19 |
|
compunerd joined #minetest-hub |
| 13:19 |
IhrFussel |
But I wonder...if it's really the CPU why could I still run top and it updated every sec?? Shouldn't it freeze then? |
| 13:19 |
Jordach |
scrypt mining* |
| 13:19 |
Megaf |
IhrFussel: we have 3 players now in my server, the only thing that makes the lag spike badly is mapgen |
| 13:19 |
Megaf |
!server Megaf |
| 13:19 |
MinetestBot |
Megaf: Megaf Server V4.17 | mt.megaf.info:30003 | Clients: 3/10, 1/3 | Version: 0.4.17-Megaf / MegafXploreNext | Ping: 10ms |
| 13:19 |
Jordach |
my server is all SSDs top to bottom |
| 13:19 |
Megaf |
It's running on a very old Atom |
| 13:20 |
IhrFussel |
Is it more likely that I/O blocked the MT process since I was able to watch top as it happened?? |
| 13:21 |
IhrFussel |
Unfortunately I wasn't fast enough to run iotop =/ ... I hope I can catch the next huge lag and run that |
| 13:24 |
IhrFussel |
Do you also share storage with others on a VPS? |
| 13:26 |
sfan5 |
yes |
| 13:30 |
IhrFussel |
Then I'm honestly leaning more towards it being an I/O problem ... we all know the server thread in MT lags as long as I/O is blocked |
| 13:31 |
IhrFussel |
I just don't know if 1 customer can block the I/O for all other customers |
| 13:40 |
Megaf |
date palm trees still crashing http://paste.debian.net/plain/1002688 |
| 13:40 |
Megaf |
[11:31:51] <IhrFussel> I just don't know if 1 customer can block the I/O for all other customers |
| 13:40 |
Megaf |
bad design |
| 13:40 |
Megaf |
not only from MT, but for PCs |
| 13:44 |
IhrFussel |
Megaf, but do you think it's actually possible with shared storage? I really want to pinpoint the issue as detailed as possible when I open the support ticket... |
| 13:45 |
IhrFussel |
They told me on the phone if I convince them enough they may move my VM to another, less crowded cluster |
| 13:46 |
Megaf |
I dont think another VM in the cluster would hog your IO |
| 13:47 |
sfan5 |
it is definitely possible |
| 13:47 |
sfan5 |
but their system should be set up to fairly share resources between VMs |
| 13:48 |
IhrFussel |
Something just made MT lag for 8 secs again :/ it's not as much as 30+ at least |
| 13:49 |
Megaf |
IhrFussel: mapgen? |
| 13:49 |
IhrFussel |
No, mapgen doesn't really lag anymore on this VPS ... but it would be awkward if it did considering this crazy CPU |
| 13:50 |
Megaf |
my server is yet again lagging badly to load terrain |
| 13:50 |
IhrFussel |
But that means mapgen lags on weaker hardware which is still an issue I' say... if you want you can pretty much eliminate any kind of performance issue if your specs are top notch |
| 13:51 |
IhrFussel |
That's not the solution though |
| 13:51 |
Megaf |
as I said, too easy coding for fast hardware |
| 13:52 |
IhrFussel |
The CPU my VPS uses costs $ 1,000 or more |
| 13:52 |
Megaf |
and a 300 USD or less Ryzen CPU will be much quicker now a days :) |
| 13:54 |
IhrFussel |
I don't even need 12 GB RAM ... I had to take that much cause there was no other configuration available |
| 13:55 |
Shara |
Hi all |
| 13:56 |
IhrFussel |
Hey Shara ... are you running your servers on a VPS? |
| 13:56 |
Shara |
Fussel, nice to see you're making some progress. And yes, both of mine are on VPS, one with OVH and the other with Scaleways. |
| 13:57 |
IhrFussel |
Ever had such huge lags? Or inconsistent performance? |
| 13:57 |
Shara |
Not like you seem to get. |
| 13:57 |
Shara |
I've always been able to trace any lag issues to specific things |
| 13:58 |
IhrFussel |
So the lags were caused by your own machine? Or external? |
| 13:58 |
Shara |
Usually by MT or mods |
| 13:59 |
IhrFussel |
Well then you must be pretty lucky to not have experienced ***holes that hog your shared CPU |
| 13:59 |
Megaf |
I'm sure this would run Minetest server reasonably well, https://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.3706631 |
| 13:59 |
Shara |
The worst case was some time back on DarkLands when players joining or performing actions that involved auth file checks brought the server to a halt, and sauth fixed that |
| 13:59 |
Megaf |
!title |
| 13:59 |
MinetestBot |
Megaf: Computer Parts, PC Components, Laptop Computers, LED LCD TV, Digital Cameras and more - Newegg.com |
| 13:59 |
Shara |
Fussel, which provider do you use? |
| 13:59 |
Megaf |
34 3,4GHz threads |
| 13:59 |
Megaf |
32* |
| 14:00 |
Shara |
A good provider should be set up to handle that kind of things |
| 14:00 |
IhrFussel |
Strato ... it's pretty much the biggest German hoster |
| 14:00 |
Shara |
thing* |
| 14:00 |
Shara |
Big doesn't mean good |
| 14:00 |
Shara |
But don't really know anything about them. |
| 14:00 |
IhrFussel |
I know but I also have my dedi there so I figured I'd stay for the VPS |
| 14:01 |
Shara |
Either way, if you cannot actually use the resources you are meant to have, talk to them about it. |
| 14:02 |
IhrFussel |
Just now 2017-12-28 15:00:42: ACTION[Server]: AVG LAG: 0.185 ... MAX LAG: 7.050 |
| 14:02 |
IhrFussel |
It's way worse than a few hours ago now |
| 14:02 |
Shara |
Can you find out what MT actually did to cause that? |
| 14:03 |
IhrFussel |
It's not caused by MT... it's 99% caused by another customer |
| 14:03 |
Shara |
Regardless of whether it should have caused such lag or not, MT will have still done something. |
| 14:03 |
Shara |
But if you alreayd know that's the issue, just talk to them |
| 14:03 |
Shara |
already* |
| 14:04 |
IhrFussel |
My server runs with 0.150 steps for hours and then suddenly a 40+ sec spike...I cannot blame MT for that |
| 14:05 |
Shara |
It can quite easily be in MT or amod. |
| 14:05 |
IhrFussel |
And nobody uses WE either..WE is the only mod that could cause such numbers |
| 14:05 |
Shara |
Even if not frequent |
| 14:05 |
Shara |
As an example, I run one specific mod on RedCat that I know for a fact can crash the server. |
| 14:05 |
Shara |
However I choose not to remove the mod or address the crash, because the fix would be worse than the occasional crash |
| 14:06 |
Shara |
It crashes me maybe once every two months. |
| 14:06 |
Shara |
Just because it's somethign rarely triggered doesn't mean it's to do with my hosting. |
| 14:07 |
IhrFussel |
The lag is almost never high now only when those mysterious spikes happen https://pastebin.com/5R9rPDEb |
| 14:08 |
Shara |
Then talk to your provider if you are sure it's on their side. |
| 14:08 |
IhrFussel |
There is no mod that only runs something every X minutes/hours |
| 14:09 |
Shara |
Doesn't need to be timed; it can be something a player triggers, or a rare thing in mapgen. |
| 14:09 |
IhrFussel |
I already called them...they said it it doesn't stop I need to open a support ticket and attach a screenshot of the lag times |
| 14:09 |
Shara |
I've seen people use mesecons machines to insta-lag out a server for example. |
| 14:09 |
Shara |
Then do that |
| 14:09 |
IhrFussel |
if it* |
| 14:10 |
Shara |
Wonder if I should also do an official release of my mesecons restrictions mod... |
| 14:10 |
Shara |
So many messy mods to tidy :( |
| 14:10 |
IhrFussel |
Should I only include the lines where the lag was high or also some lines where it was low so that they see it#s very inconsistent? |
| 14:11 |
Shara |
I'd show them something so then can also see what's normal |
| 14:11 |
Shara |
And explain why you're sure the problem isn't on your side |
| 14:12 |
Megaf |
<ACTION> 2017-12-28 14:11:17: [Server] CHAT: <UnspeakableGame> HOLYSHIT |
| 14:12 |
Megaf |
<ACTION> 2017-12-28 14:11:43: [Server] CHAT: <Megaf> well, you not getting interact... |
| 14:12 |
Megaf |
Server] CHAT: <UnspeakableGame> WTF IS WRONG WITH THESE ADMINS THEY ARE RUDE |
| 14:12 |
Megaf |
<ACTION> 2017-12-28 14:12:30: [Server] CHAT: <UnspeakableGame> YOUSONOFABITCH!!!!!! |
| 14:12 |
Megaf |
] |
| 14:12 |
Megaf |
if you want to ban this guy in advance from your server... |
| 14:13 |
Shara |
Unless it's related to some very specific things, I only ban for actions actually on my servers |
| 14:14 |
Aerozoic |
Same ^ |
| 14:15 |
Shara |
There's some exceptions, like predatory behaviour of certain kinds that I'm happy to advance ban for, but when it comes to insults and swearing, you may as well advance ban hundreds of players a day if you start that. |
| 14:16 |
IhrFussel |
Megaf, I have a player with a very similar name ... if it's them they probably didn't complain cause interact is default in my world xD |
| 14:16 |
Shara |
I sometimes get people screaming... in perfect english... about how my server is terrible because they don't have interact... when all they need to do is read some signs... in english... to get it. :) |
| 14:18 |
Megaf |
great, I ban the guy and server seg faults |
| 14:18 |
Megaf |
<ACTION> 2017-12-28 14:18:07: [Server] UnspeakableGame leaves game. List of players: Megaf Hamza568 |
| 14:18 |
Megaf |
]Segmentation fault |
| 14:18 |
Megaf |
gotta love MT reliability |
| 14:22 |
sfan5 |
open an issue with a backtrace |
| 14:22 |
|
srifqi joined #minetest-hub |
| 14:35 |
Calinou |
<Megaf> <ACTION> 2017-12-28 14:12:30: [Server] CHAT: <UnspeakableGame> YOUSONOFABITCH!!!!!! |
| 14:35 |
Calinou |
sounds like they just broke their space bar |
| 14:36 |
Megaf |
hah |
| 14:43 |
Jordach |
kek |
| 14:45 |
Megaf |
!server Megaf |
| 14:45 |
MinetestBot |
Megaf: Megaf Server V4.17 | mt.megaf.info:30003 | Clients: 0/10, 0/0 | Version: 0.4.17-Megaf / MegafXploreNext | Ping: 11ms |
| 14:45 |
Megaf |
ok, updated homedecor, moretrees and the engine |
| 14:45 |
Megaf |
maybe my bugs were fixed already |
| 14:46 |
Megaf |
lol |
| 14:46 |
Megaf |
I just updated homedecor and now stuff went missing |
| 14:49 |
Megaf |
defuck creative was added as dep to homedecor!?!?!?! |
| 14:49 |
Megaf |
Why would a mod depend on creative!? |
| 14:50 |
Shara |
Check the mod to see what needs it? |
| 14:50 |
Megaf |
VanessaE: why? https://github.com/minetest-mods/homedecor_modpack/commit/1471a0cba91f4fca0c00d502ac6b7e880e7594f7#diff-b12aa140a7c73abdcce63bd23f3e9edeR4 |
| 14:50 |
Megaf |
Shara: vanessa jsut decided to add creative as dep to her mods |
| 14:50 |
Megaf |
that just breaks my server, thank you very much |
| 14:51 |
Megaf |
eveyday you people push me more and more away from Minetest, |
| 14:51 |
VanessaE |
Megaf[m]: fix your busted install then. |
| 14:51 |
Megaf |
keep doing this great job. Soon you will see me vanished from here |
| 14:51 |
Megaf |
no more complains. |
| 14:51 |
VanessaE |
if you don't want creative mode TURN IT OFF IN YOUR CONFIG. |
| 14:51 |
VanessaE |
don't just delete the mod. |
| 14:51 |
Calinou |
you should ask for a refund :) |
| 14:52 |
Megaf |
Calinou: name me a person to as for refund |
| 14:52 |
sfan5 |
thatsthejoke.jpeg |
| 14:52 |
Megaf |
I've put thousands of dollares in this shit already |
| 14:52 |
Megaf |
dolalrs* |
| 14:52 |
Megaf |
I cant spell |
| 14:52 |
Megaf |
but still |
| 14:52 |
Calinou |
Minetest and mods are provided without warranty, with no promise of merchantability or fitness for a particular purpose |
| 14:52 |
Calinou |
read the license :) |
| 14:52 |
Shara |
Megaf, though I don't necessarily agree that requiring people to use MTG exactly as it is is a great approach for well established mods, complaints and threating to leave don't generally help get things resolved. |
| 14:53 |
Megaf |
Im spending between 20 and 40 USD/month since 2012 in Minetest |
| 14:53 |
Shara |
threatening* |
| 14:53 |
VanessaE |
Megaf: and it depends on creative because it has to inquire if the user has creative capability for the sake of inventory management. |
| 14:53 |
Aerozoic |
I'm on Megaf's side. MT should come with a warning that says it's WAYYYYY below quality standards, even for a free game. |
| 14:53 |
Megaf |
I dont have a job. I quit doing lots of nice things in my life so I could run Minetest server |
| 14:53 |
sfan5 |
VanessaE: shouldn't it optionally depend on creative then? |
| 14:54 |
Shara |
^ |
| 14:54 |
Megaf |
for that money I can have ulimited cinema or ulimined gym or ulimited 4G internet in my phone |
| 14:54 |
Megaf |
yet I decided to spend moeny I dont have in Minetst |
| 14:54 |
VanessaE |
sfan5: no, because it calls some functions in that mod. |
| 14:54 |
sfan5 |
i know that |
| 14:54 |
Megaf |
for 6 fucking years |
| 14:54 |
Shara |
Megaf: it's your choice. Just like all of us choose what we are or are not willing to do for MT. |
| 14:54 |
Megaf |
to only get my hardware blamed |
| 14:55 |
Megaf |
I'm absolutely fed up |
| 14:55 |
Shara |
Personally I shrugged my shoulders and made my own fork of homedecor long ago, but I don't complain about it. |
| 14:55 |
Megaf |
if you just fork you stay away from some very good and welcome improvements |
| 14:55 |
Shara |
Of course, but again, that's my choice |
| 14:55 |
VanessaE |
ok I give up. if you're not gonna listen to me then just piss off. |
| 14:55 |
Megaf |
in my server it was a big celebration every single homedecor updated |
| 14:56 |
* VanessaE |
wanders off. |
| 14:56 |
sfan5 |
VanessaE: you could have `local has_creative = mintest.get_modpath("creative") and creative.is_enabled_for or function() return false end` |
| 14:56 |
Megaf |
we used to gather together to see what was new in homedecor |
| 14:56 |
Shara |
And I can always choose to add in new things if I want to anyway |
| 14:56 |
sfan5 |
that preserves compatibility with non-minetest_game and still solves the problem |
| 14:58 |
VanessaE |
sfan5: I could, but why bother when disabling/deleting the creative mod entirely is simply the wrong way to disable that mode (versus creative_mode = false in minetest.conf) |
| 14:58 |
Megaf |
VanessaE: and guess what, my brain is fucked up too. I worked fucking hard for 12 years just so I could walk properly and been working my whole life just so people can tell me I'm weird |
| 14:58 |
VanessaE |
Megaf: um..your point? |
| 14:58 |
sfan5 |
that depends on whether you explicitly support non-minetest_game |
| 14:58 |
Megaf |
None, YET |
| 14:58 |
sfan5 |
if you don't then you don't need to bother |
| 14:58 |
Jordach |
>tfw you make your own game so Minetest_Game doesn't do stupid things |
| 14:58 |
VanessaE |
sfan5: and I don't. |
| 14:58 |
sfan5 |
well then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
| 14:58 |
Megaf |
[12:58:37] <Jordach> >tfw you make your own game so Minetest_Game doesn't do stupid things |
| 14:58 |
Calinou |
Aerozoic: the README does include such a notice :) |
| 14:58 |
Megaf |
precisely |
| 14:59 |
Aerozoic |
oh XD |
| 14:59 |
Megaf |
Jordach, the very reason I have my own game now homedecor and other mods are not working anymore |
| 14:59 |
Megaf |
just because I dont have creative in my SURVIVAL game |
| 14:59 |
Calinou |
Aerozoic: problem is, if you scare people off they won't even try it |
| 14:59 |
VanessaE |
sfan5: so if Megaf wants to keep doing non-standard stuff that breaks things, he's welcome to all the headaches that brings with it. |
| 15:00 |
Shara |
Megaf: Personally I would love to see big mods like homedecor offer support beyond MTG, but asking politely is usually a much better approach and makes people more willing to consider helping you. |
| 15:00 |
Megaf |
the only non standard things in my subgame is the lack of TNT, Screwdriver and Creative |
| 15:01 |
Megaf |
and the very reason I dont have them is the lack of quality control and security in Minetest |
| 15:03 |
|
srifqi joined #minetest-hub |
| 15:04 |
Megaf |
Now, I still think homedecor is one of the greatest mods in Minetest. We all love it. I'm just not buying the dependencie in creative. Specially after 5 or 6 years of using it without creative. |
| 15:06 |
Megaf |
and if creative is there just disabled, but with its functions enabled, CSM could then easily hack into it |
| 15:08 |
Megaf |
I wonder what else now depends on creative. |
| 15:11 |
VanessaE |
um.. |
| 15:12 |
VanessaE |
csm is client-side, Megaf. creative mod is server side |
| 15:12 |
Megaf |
csm can do whatever it wants currently |
| 15:12 |
VanessaE |
I don't see how your claim is remotely possible. |
| 15:12 |
VanessaE |
csm can't do anything the server forbids.... |
| 15:12 |
sfan5 |
ah yes the uninformed csm bashing |
| 15:13 |
VanessaE |
(as long as it can enforce the forebiddance) |
| 15:13 |
Megaf |
let me put in other words, quoting myself from somewhere else |
| 15:13 |
Megaf |
[13:07:24] <Megaf> A mod installed yet disabled, having it's functions available to other mods. That sounds like a terrible designed and security flaw to me |
| 15:13 |
Megaf |
[13:07:43] <Megaf> design* |
| 15:14 |
VanessaE |
bullshit. |
| 15:14 |
Megaf |
If I am mistanek, then please enlighten me |
| 15:14 |
Megaf |
mistaken* |
| 15:14 |
VanessaE |
no. |
| 15:14 |
VanessaE |
we've tried, you refuse to listen |
| 15:14 |
VanessaE |
so fuck it. |
| 15:14 |
VanessaE |
I ain't gonna waste my time. |
| 15:14 |
|
paramat joined #minetest-hub |
| 15:15 |
sfan5 |
Megaf: do you mean "creative_mode = false" as a way of disabling the creative mod? |
| 15:15 |
VanessaE |
yes, he does. |
| 15:15 |
Megaf |
sfan5: I don't know. I want to understand how that works |
| 15:16 |
Megaf |
I see creative inside a directory called mods |
| 15:16 |
Megaf |
if I remove creative from there and put in the servers mod, and set it to enable = false in world.mt, it will be disabled |
| 15:16 |
sfan5 |
being able to reactivate creative functionality despite creative_mode=false is a feature |
| 15:16 |
Megaf |
how is that different from removing creative altogether or setting creative_mode = false? |
| 15:17 |
sfan5 |
methods 1 and 2 result in creative not being loaded at all |
| 15:17 |
Megaf |
It looks like creative is always there, active, regardless of true or false |
| 15:17 |
Megaf |
all it does is changes the inventory behaviour |
| 15:17 |
sfan5 |
method 3 just says "by default nobody is able to use creative mode features" |
| 15:17 |
Megaf |
that for me, deosnt matter at all, since I dont use standard inventory |
| 15:18 |
sfan5 |
uh |
| 15:18 |
sfan5 |
yes |
| 15:21 |
paramat |
Megaf creative not being a dependency was a bug in the mod that was fixed, so coooool it :) we can help you code around this |
| 15:25 |
Megaf |
That is a good anwer to my ugly question |
| 15:25 |
Megaf |
sfan5: so you see? Apart from homedecor and moretrees maybe, creative is totally irrelevant |
| 15:26 |
sfan5 |
yes |
| 15:27 |
sfan5 |
but creative provides an API which homedecor uses, meaning homedecor requires a full minetest_game installation to function |
| 15:27 |
sfan5 |
i don't see the problem here (apart from the missing support for non-MTG subgames) |
| 15:29 |
paramat |
why is creative mod a 'lack of quality control and security' issue? what harm is there using it? |
| 15:30 |
paramat |
if anything is broken we'll fix it |
| 15:30 |
paramat |
not having that mod will just cause you problems in future |
| 15:30 |
Shara |
I think it's a general dislike of running mods that you have no intention of using |
| 15:31 |
* benrob0329 |
reads backlog, and walks away |
| 15:33 |
paramat |
if the 'player creative priviledge' is the only dependency there's a 1 line way around that |
| 15:35 |
paramat |
however, easiest just to use creative mod |
| 15:37 |
paramat |
what are the quality control and security issues of TNT and Screwdriver mods? they seem fine, again, leaving those out will just cause you grief, like today =) |
| 15:40 |
Shara |
paramat: quite a lot of servers delete tnt |
| 15:40 |
Shara |
I was even advised to by a developer |
| 15:41 |
Megaf |
paramat: while CSM = true; $everything == NotSafe |
| 15:42 |
Shara |
Megaf: I really would love to see CSM removed, but there's no point blaming everything on it. Some things are safe because the server does control them correctly |
| 15:42 |
Megaf |
And the best thing to prove me wrong, is trying to prove me right, that is the scietific method |
| 15:43 |
paramat |
yeah might as well leave TNT out if it's not needed |
| 15:43 |
Megaf |
I've seen people building without interact, flying without fly. Wiping chests and opening doors with screwdriver |
| 15:43 |
Megaf |
you see quite a lot of things in 6 years of Minetest |
| 15:43 |
Shara |
I would just like to see the major mods be as flexible as possible in terms of what they can work with. |
| 15:44 |
Megaf |
things that devs arriving in the last 3 years wouldnt even dream to be possible at all |
| 15:44 |
Megaf |
I have used the screwdriver myself to exploit other servers |
| 15:44 |
paramat |
do open an issue about screwdrivers opening doors, we'll try to fix it. but again, you could leave that out if not needed |
| 15:45 |
Megaf |
IMHO the same goes to ANY mod that I dont use. |
| 15:45 |
paramat |
ok fair enough |
| 15:45 |
Megaf |
the only "mod" I want is "default" |
| 15:45 |
Megaf |
I dont need carts, tnt, screwdriver, creative, fire |
| 15:45 |
Megaf |
nor farming |
| 15:46 |
paramat |
but if you don't open issues it won't get fixed |
| 15:46 |
Megaf |
I rewrote those from scratch myself, used another implementations or just dont use them |
| 15:46 |
Megaf |
if creative is 100% essential to Minetest, then it's FUNCTIONS should be in default |
| 15:46 |
Megaf |
since all we need is a simple check |
| 15:47 |
Megaf |
It's not just about be bitching about creative, it's about choice, it's about consitency and security |
| 15:47 |
Megaf |
I see things inside a palce called mods, as mods. |
| 15:47 |
Megaf |
If they are not mods, then I'm sorry |
| 15:47 |
Megaf |
I must have skipped that lesson |
| 15:49 |
paramat |
no, a game is a collection of mods, MTG is |
| 15:49 |
paramat |
and we separate it into mods for good reason |
| 15:50 |
paramat |
anyway, is there a specific problem with creative? |
| 15:50 |
paramat |
afaik homedecor just needs a 1 line fix to not need creative |
| 15:50 |
Shara |
paramat: you yourself know that part of why server owners prefer it seperated is so they can just drop bits they don't want |
| 15:50 |
paramat |
exactly |
| 15:51 |
paramat |
VanessaE what part of creative does homedecor use? is it just checking the player creative priv? |
| 15:55 |
VanessaE |
it uses the is-enabled-for call. |
| 15:56 |
paramat |
ok easy fix |
| 15:56 |
VanessaE |
..in multiple places |
| 15:56 |
paramat |
oh |
| 15:57 |
paramat |
well still possibly easy |
| 15:57 |
Megaf |
paramat: Couldn't we write a creative-lite thingy just to implement that function? |
| 15:57 |
VanessaE |
anywhere that homedecore or one of its sub mods has to manage the player's inventory (f.ex deducting an item to replace it with something else) |
| 15:57 |
VanessaE |
-ew |
| 15:57 |
VanessaE |
-e* |
| 15:58 |
Megaf |
I understand VanessaE's point. Maybe that function should be in default isntead of creative. |
| 15:58 |
paramat |
Megaf 'yes we can' |
| 15:58 |
VanessaE |
probably still easy but the fault lies with Megaf's install. |
| 15:58 |
Shara |
VanessaE: would you still be willing to change it if someone made a PR? |
| 15:59 |
Megaf |
as is for now, homedecor only works in minetest_game, with a simple change to "default" her mod and many other would work in other subgames |
| 15:59 |
Shara |
I'm torn about the disabling creative part myself, because it seems so vital to me, but then I am in favour of mods having that level of flexibility |
| 15:59 |
Megaf |
and freedom of choice would be given back to admins |
| 15:59 |
VanessaE |
Shara: debatable... what happens when someone else decides they don't want some other mt_game component that HD uses? |
| 15:59 |
Shara |
How many others are there people could dispute? |
| 15:59 |
VanessaE |
idk |
| 15:59 |
paramat |
well, that creative priv check has to be in creative, it can't be moved |
| 16:00 |
VanessaE |
but I don't dare to guess. |
| 16:00 |
Megaf |
hold on |
| 16:00 |
Megaf |
let me check something |
| 16:00 |
Shara |
Looking at depends, creative is the only obvious one I see |
| 16:00 |
paramat |
i'll gist a creative-lite mod in a minute |
| 16:00 |
* Megaf |
doesnt really want to change HD |
| 16:01 |
Megaf |
paramat: no need for now, wait a sec please |
| 16:01 |
VanessaE |
like I said, the proper way to fix this is to not disable the creative mod and instead turn off the modE in minetest.conf |
| 16:01 |
Megaf |
I might code something here myself, Im reading the code |
| 16:01 |
Megaf |
homedecor check does make sense, doesn't it? |
| 16:02 |
paramat |
add a mod called 'creative' with https://gist.github.com/paramat/d92f05790c5195f4931a54dad5b4b7db as init.lua |
| 16:03 |
paramat |
that will then also help with any other mod that uses that function |
| 16:03 |
VanessaE |
Shara: that said, people have in the past tried to remake 'default', breaking mods (including mine) along the way. so I have to draw the line somewhere. "don't disable whole mods that are part of minetest_game" is as reasonable place to put said line as I can think of. |
| 16:04 |
VanessaE |
as reasonable a place* |
| 16:04 |
paramat |
any issues with that gist let me know |
| 16:05 |
Shara |
VanessaE: I just find it a pretty sad stance for the maintainers of popular mods to take, since it creates a huge barrier for other subgames and even slight customisations of MTG. When a bit more flexibility would be possible, it is nice to see it, but I do understand your stance as well. |
| 16:06 |
VanessaE |
Shara: like I said, I have no choice but to draw a line in the sand. |
| 16:07 |
Megaf |
minetest Platinum:~/MegafServer/BinMegafServer$ ls games/MegafXploreNext |
| 16:07 |
Megaf |
game_api.txt game.conf LICENSE.txt menu README.txt settingtypes.txt |
| 16:07 |
* Megaf |
hides |
| 16:07 |
VanessaE |
Megaf wants to break his mt_game install, fine with me, it's just up to him to deal with the fallout |
| 16:07 |
Shara |
I know, but it's still sad given homedecor is mostly just adding content that could easily work in any game. |
| 16:09 |
VanessaE |
Shara: besides, homedecor uses public API functions in the creative mod and has for months or years. should I start adding checks everywhere for other mt_game mods that it uses. |
| 16:09 |
VanessaE |
? |
| 16:09 |
VanessaE |
it's only last week that I updated depends.txt accordingly. |
| 16:10 |
VanessaE |
because I had simply forgotten about it |
| 16:10 |
Shara |
I'd need to spend some time checking exactly what the mod does to even start forming an answer, and since I have no interest in using official homedecor for reasons I already lost count of, I'm not going to do that. |
| 16:10 |
VanessaE |
no interest D: |
| 16:10 |
Shara |
Sorry - I love the mod but it simply has too many issues for me. |
| 16:10 |
VanessaE |
oh well |
| 16:11 |
VanessaE |
can't please everyone I guess. :( |
| 16:11 |
Megaf |
Well, it has only a single issue for me... |
| 16:11 |
Shara |
It's one of those annoying dilemas, since I don't want to run my own version w hen it comes down to it, b ut I feel I have to, so I just get on with it |
| 16:11 |
VanessaE |
I'm just sorry I can't really code anymore. :-/ |
| 16:11 |
Shara |
I still feel like I never could even to begin with :D |
| 16:12 |
Megaf |
I can't even spell... |
| 16:12 |
Shara |
homedecor would be nicer if it was lots of seperate mods, but that's just my preference |
| 16:12 |
VanessaE |
it is :) |
| 16:12 |
Shara |
ANd I also don't know if all the issues I identified previously are still present or not |
| 16:12 |
Megaf |
Shara: it is, it's a modpack |
| 16:12 |
VanessaE |
but you mean even more separated |
| 16:12 |
Megaf |
you can enable and disable stuff in it |
| 16:12 |
Shara |
VanessaE: Yes, the main homedecor mod itself. |
| 16:12 |
VanessaE |
Megaf: she wants homedecore itself split apart too |
| 16:13 |
VanessaE |
-e |
| 16:13 |
Megaf |
oh |
| 16:13 |
Shara |
There's things I want, and things I don't want, and after a while it gets messy |
| 16:13 |
VanessaE |
some day maybe I will |
| 16:13 |
VanessaE |
but not now. |
| 16:13 |
Shara |
depends was another issue that made me fork |
| 16:13 |
Shara |
But again, I consider that my own choice |
| 16:14 |
VanessaE |
at this point I'm lucky I can think clearly enough and type well enough to chat. coding? fuhgeddaboutit. |
| 16:14 |
Shara |
For example, I didn't want to have unifieddyes on my server, because that's just about crafting, and a creative doesn't need crafting |
| 16:14 |
Shara |
Hehe |
| 16:14 |
Megaf |
well, my issue was sorted out by paramat |
| 16:14 |
Shara |
:) |
| 16:14 |
Megaf |
I have the function homedecor needs, problem solved |
| 16:15 |
Megaf |
maybe the function could be part of default |
| 16:15 |
Shara |
Awesome |
| 16:15 |
VanessaE |
Megaf: and you'll notice he did it by un-breaking your modified mt_game :P |
| 16:15 |
Shara |
Megaf: I think it was already explained it can't be moved to default |
| 16:15 |
VanessaE |
[12-28 10:59] <paramat> well, that creative priv check has to be in creative, it can't be moved |
| 16:15 |
Shara |
^ |
| 16:16 |
Megaf |
Sorry, I totally missed that |
| 16:16 |
Shara |
In the end there's just a whole bunch of decisions that have to be made about how larger mods/modpacks are run, and they won't suit everyone. Doesn't make those choices wrong, just different. |
| 16:18 |
Megaf |
sofar: Just to let you know, I added your remote media server to my main server now. I'm using latest homedecor, mesecons, pipeworks, moretrees, moreblocks, moreores, you have all of those? |
| 16:19 |
VanessaE |
Shara: so anyway..um... file some issues so we can sort out what you don't like. |
| 16:20 |
VanessaE |
on an unrelated, offtopic note |
| 16:20 |
* VanessaE |
grumbles at the pile of 3d printed parts on her desk |
| 16:20 |
VanessaE |
(can't put them together, waiting on some bits and bobs in the mail) |
| 16:25 |
Megaf |
Shara: you know adv trains mod? |
| 16:25 |
Megaf |
I added it to my server, pretty neat |
| 16:29 |
|
Krock joined #minetest-hub |
| 16:36 |
Megaf |
hi Krock |
| 16:37 |
benrob0329 |
Neat, but the steam locomotive models are...*cough* |
| 16:38 |
benrob0329 |
I started to redo the detailed one, need to finish that |
| 16:44 |
Shara |
Megaf: Poke me in an hour or so and I can come check it out if you like |
| 16:47 |
Shara |
VanessaE: If I can crawl to the top of my own "must fix this mod yesterday!!" heap, I might grab current homedecor and take a look, but I really would have to test most of my previous issues again before spamming you with things to do. |
| 16:48 |
VanessaE |
ok |
| 16:48 |
Shara |
I did too much travelling over the past couple of months and the heap grew into a mountain while my back was turned. :( |
| 16:48 |
VanessaE |
don't forget, homedecor is in the minetest-mods group, so maybe I can pawn some of your issues off on sofar ;) |
| 16:49 |
Shara |
Hehehe |
| 16:52 |
Megaf |
benrob0329: heh, pelase do, I'm fine with the models tho |
| 16:53 |
Megaf |
My only issue so far is some trains have no sounds and it's very tricky to make curves |
| 16:56 |
Megaf |
benrob0329: Actually, I have no idea how to do curves |
| 16:56 |
Megaf |
!server Megaf |
| 16:56 |
MinetestBot |
Megaf: Megaf Server V4.17 | mt.megaf.info:30003 | Clients: 1/10, 0/1 | Version: 0.4.17-Megaf / MegafXploreNext | Ping: 10ms |
| 16:56 |
Megaf |
feel free to join and help me figure out |
| 16:57 |
benrob0329 |
Megaf: use the track tool to change the track type |
| 16:57 |
Megaf |
oh |
| 16:57 |
benrob0329 |
And lay then so they connect, its diagonally |
| 16:57 |
Megaf |
lemme try |
| 17:01 |
Megaf |
benrob0329: heh, thanks, it worked just fine |
| 17:08 |
Shara |
Sadly, I suspect adding advance trains to my creative would just lead to more crazy spammy railtracks absolutely everywhere |
| 17:09 |
rubenwardy |
advanced trains is rather unstable |
| 17:13 |
benrob0329 |
Shara: unfortunately yes |
| 17:13 |
benrob0329 |
Although you could make them reserved to railroad operators |
| 17:13 |
Shara |
There is something about railtracks that causes otherwise okay builders to go mad and make huge eyesores |
| 17:14 |
benrob0329 |
Remove them from the creative inventory type thing |
| 17:14 |
benrob0329 |
o_O |
| 17:15 |
Shara |
What railtracks in MT should look like: http://rc.minetest.tv/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/rafstrain.png |
| 17:15 |
|
paramat joined #minetest-hub |
| 17:15 |
rubenwardy |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUZZkUrMrNY |
| 17:15 |
paramat |
Megaf so you added that stripped-down creative mod? |
| 17:17 |
Krock |
rubenwardy, advtrains is on the way for that.. just the textures may need a bit more tweaking |
| 17:17 |
rubenwardy |
the textures are disgusting |
| 17:17 |
paramat |
Megaf also please open an issue about your screwdriver problem. no issue > no fix > can't complain :) |
| 17:18 |
Shara |
Doe sthat issues with screwdrivers exist anymore? |
| 17:19 |
paramat |
yeah confirmation would be good |
| 17:21 |
Megaf |
paramat: I think it was fixed already |
| 17:22 |
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| 17:28 |
paramat |
ok good |
| 17:54 |
IhrFussel |
Customer support didn't help much "that seems to be normal regarding VPS, maybe you should've considered a dedi instead" |
| 17:54 |
IhrFussel |
Well let's see what they reply to my email with the lag times |
| 18:12 |
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EvergreenTree joined #minetest-hub |
| 18:46 |
Megaf |
bye all |
| 18:59 |
rubenwardy |
omg |
| 18:59 |
rubenwardy |
if we have a conference we could call it Minetest.Conf |
| 18:59 |
rubenwardy |
minetest.conf |
| 18:59 |
Shara |
rubenwardy: and now it has to happen |
| 18:59 |
rubenwardy |
either that or MeseCon, but the latter's way too ambiguous |
| 18:59 |
ThomasMonroe |
hehe |
| 19:00 |
ThomasMonroe |
XD |
| 19:00 |
ThomasMonroe |
I like MeseCon better though :P |
| 19:00 |
rubenwardy |
yeah, it's better :D |
| 19:00 |
paramat |
MineFest |
| 19:01 |
paramat |
ConTest |
| 19:01 |
ThomasMonroe |
lol |
| 19:01 |
ThomasMonroe |
are there prizes at the ConTest? |
| 19:01 |
rubenwardy |
ew, just nuke the test |
| 19:02 |
rubenwardy |
rebrand as "Mine" |
| 19:02 |
ThomasMonroe |
isn't that selfish? ;D |
| 19:02 |
rubenwardy |
even better, MineGineâ„¢ |
| 19:02 |
rubenwardy |
oops |
| 19:02 |
rubenwardy |
even better, Minengineâ„¢ |
| 19:03 |
Sokomine |
Shara: if all you don't want from homedecor are some nodes...perhaps overriding minetest.register_node might be of intrest? (if possible). i'm considering ways of offering travelnet in such a way that people can decide what part they want and what not. thus the discussion about settingtypes.txt |
| 19:03 |
Shara |
Sokomine: then my server is still stuck with the baggage of all those extra textures and modles, which I believe are still sent to players? |
| 19:04 |
Shara |
models* |
| 19:04 |
Shara |
Not to mention dependencies on other mods I don't want |
| 19:04 |
rubenwardy |
MineEngine Pro |
| 19:05 |
rubenwardy |
MineEngine F2P with IAPs |
| 19:05 |
rubenwardy |
IAP API for Minetest, when? |
| 19:05 |
rubenwardy |
gotta get loot boxes in CTF |
| 19:06 |
Shara |
Sokomine: Also homedecor has the fun issue of single textures larger than 200KB. |
| 19:07 |
Sokomine |
rubenwardy: as long as we don't have to mine at the meeting...("bring your own pick", "dig for coal", ...) |
| 19:07 |
rubenwardy |
we don't have enough players for this, unfortunately :( |
| 19:07 |
Sokomine |
Shara: hm, that's right. the models and textures would still be there |
| 19:07 |
Sokomine |
VanessaE loves doing textures and believes in hd :-) |
| 19:08 |
ThomasMonroe |
ruben, I guess we have an empty mine :P |
| 19:08 |
Shara |
One of the things I did with homedecor is massively reduce texture size.... never yet had a player complain |
| 19:09 |
Shara |
216KB texture in homedecor... my version is 53KB, just to give one of the most extreme cases |
| 19:10 |
Sokomine |
hm, yes, homedecor is sometimes a bit heavy. it offers lots of very nice decorative nodes, and i've met a lot of players who did spend more effort on indoor decoration than on the outside. yet...a smaller version for more survival-orientated servers could sometimes help. maybe what 3dformiture had + some homedecor nodes + doors + windows (those really help make buildings look better) |
| 19:10 |
Shara |
And that starts adding up big time soon enough, even if most of the texture changes have had smaller savings |
| 19:10 |
Shara |
On DarkLands I used xdecor and then added selected homedecor items only |
| 19:12 |
Sokomine |
xdecor is also nice and has consistent textures. but it's not really a repalcement for homedecor. it feels...more mc-like. mt has chairs and tables and toilets and fridges and kitchen sinks and kichten cabinets (very universal usage possible) |
| 19:12 |
Shara |
Yes, I don't even really like xdecor to be honest, but that wasn't meant to be a heavy server in any sense |
| 19:12 |
rubenwardy |
"a bit heavy" |
| 19:12 |
rubenwardy |
very bloated you mean |
| 19:12 |
rubenwardy |
:D |
| 19:13 |
Shara |
When you can reduce a mod by over 1MB in size and players don't even notice the change... |
| 19:13 |
* Shara |
shrugs |
| 19:13 |
Sokomine |
maybe they notice but see no reason to complain |
| 19:14 |
Shara |
Sokomine: At the time I asked them to tell me which nodes I had reduced textures on... they couldn't |
| 19:14 |
Sokomine |
oh :-) |
| 19:14 |
Sokomine |
well, anyway: thanks for reducing textures. my gpu is always glad if it has less work to do |
| 19:15 |
Shara |
I think one player noticed I reduced the water texture (I used a fairly large custom one), but I expected that since I could see the difference on that myself quite easily |
| 19:15 |
Shara |
But the only homedecor ones where I think you can actually see the change if you look closely are the plasma ones, since I simply couldn't justify such large textures sizes for them |
| 19:42 |
Shara |
ThomasMonroe: Just to confirm, have you played on RedCat any time recently? Pretty sure it was someone using your name and not you that I just banned. :) |
| 19:45 |
ThomasMonroe |
yes it was not me XD |
| 19:45 |
Shara |
Awesome. If you ever need the name freed up there, just let me know. |
| 20:18 |
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behalebabo joined #minetest-hub |
| 20:22 |
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behalebabo joined #minetest-hub |
| 20:27 |
* Jordach |
has more choccie digestives |
| 20:30 |
Shara |
Jordach: Share? |
| 20:32 |
IhrFussel |
Is a 30 sec lag every hour acceptable on a VPS? I'm just trying to hear some more opinions in case they reply "sorry we cannot help you there" |
| 20:34 |
Jordach |
yes |
| 20:34 |
Shara |
Fussel, the best people to ask that of would be your players |
| 20:34 |
Shara |
They are the ones who need to live with it |
| 20:36 |
IhrFussel |
What kind of service are you supposed to run on a VPS if it's "normal" to have the machine freeze for 30 sec hourly?? I cannot imagine that this is normal |
| 20:36 |
Shara |
Doesn't happen to me |
| 20:36 |
IhrFussel |
I don't even have the cheapest VPS I have the middle one |
| 20:37 |
IhrFussel |
https://www.strato.de/server/linux-vserver/ I got the one that's blue by default |
| 20:38 |
IhrFussel |
I can't believe that they are offering such a terrible performance as "mid-tier VPS" |
| 20:42 |
Shara |
Maybe I am missing it, but it doesn't seem to say much about CPU? |
| 20:42 |
IhrFussel |
Look at those numbers https://pastebin.com/3iwxZePQ |
| 20:43 |
Shara |
All over the place |
| 20:43 |
IhrFussel |
It says 6 vCores ... and the CPU in use is extremely powerful ... the problem is that I have to share the CPU with others |
| 20:43 |
Shara |
Can MT even utilise that many cores? |
| 20:44 |
IhrFussel |
No, but I thought if I choose a more expensive VPS MAYBE I would get a certain min performance |
| 20:44 |
Shara |
When lag peaks, is CPU maxing out on the cores in use? |
| 20:45 |
IhrFussel |
Nope, average load goes up to 0,5 or maybe 1,0 but that's it ... minetestserver stays at ~5% CPU |
| 20:46 |
Shara |
When I've had lag problems on my servers before, I could clearly see CPU maxing out |
| 20:48 |
IhrFussel |
http://i.imgur.com/pIsHNvm.png ... that's what it looks like during the spike more or less |
| 20:50 |
Shara |
I wish I could help you more, but you need someone with more of a clue about this than I have |
| 20:50 |
Megaf |
Minetest.Conf it is |
| 20:51 |
Megaf |
will happen in Feb or March next year in Europe |
| 20:51 |
rubenwardy |
what is mtwol? |
| 20:51 |
Megaf |
Likely in Wales or Scotland |
| 20:51 |
rubenwardy |
*mtwol.sh |
| 20:51 |
rubenwardy |
Bristol! |
| 20:51 |
rubenwardy |
:D |
| 20:52 |
Shara |
rubenwardy: Don't be greedy :P |
| 20:52 |
Megaf |
we have already 3 attendences comfirmed |
| 20:52 |
Shara |
Bristol already has one :) |
| 20:52 |
rubenwardy |
lol :D |
| 20:52 |
* Megaf |
has just returned from sunny day in the swiming pool |
| 20:53 |
IhrFussel |
rubenwardy, those are just some scripts that restart the server, do backups etc |
| 20:53 |
rubenwardy |
cool |
| 20:53 |
rubenwardy |
was wondering why it was root |
| 20:54 |
IhrFussel |
Yeah well since I modified a few builtin files too I need to backup those too =P |
| 20:54 |
rubenwardy |
with systemd, you can allow users to control services. ie: allow the Minetest to restart Minetest |
| 20:54 |
rubenwardy |
lol |
| 20:55 |
* Megaf |
has to learn how to do that ^ |
| 20:55 |
rubenwardy |
you don't need run as root to backup files in /usr |
| 20:55 |
rubenwardy |
everything in /usr is world readable |
| 20:56 |
* Megaf |
throws Darwin at rubenwardy |
| 20:56 |
rubenwardy |
what |
| 20:56 |
Megaf |
the OS.. |
| 20:56 |
Megaf |
nevermind |
| 20:56 |
rubenwardy |
the VPS is probably Linux |
| 20:56 |
rubenwardy |
not Darwin |
| 20:57 |
rubenwardy |
trying to upload my systemd service, but gist.github.com won't load |
| 20:57 |
rubenwardy |
at my parents who have 60Kbps currently |
| 20:57 |
rubenwardy |
usually 500Kbps - 2Mbps |
| 20:58 |
rubenwardy |
ha, 23Kbps right now |
| 20:58 |
Megaf |
sometimes is faster to just send data by post |
| 20:59 |
Megaf |
or by pigeon |
| 20:59 |
Megaf |
attach a 1 TB SD card to a pigeon and be happy |
| 20:59 |
rubenwardy |
I have 200Mbps at home, so this is very painful |
| 20:59 |
Megaf |
Pigeon Backup Services |
| 20:59 |
rubenwardy |
https://gist.github.com/rubenwardy/59ea4e422f70b4b7a220c759d29fc8b2 |
| 21:21 |
* Sokomine |
lures the pidgeon with megafs sd card away with some seeds |
| 21:21 |
Jordach |
IhrFussel: what's your maximum price/month |
| 21:27 |
IhrFussel |
Jordach, I already pay $25/month for my current dedi ... if I didn't have that other dedi I could take a more expensive dedi right now but my hoster also takes an "activation fee" of $50 |
| 21:27 |
Calinou |
rubenwardy: I could download at 10 MB/s on Steam with a 4G connection at my grandparents on Christmas |
| 21:27 |
Calinou |
I get 1.3 MB/s at best at home |
| 21:28 |
Calinou |
oh, also, fiber has been announced in my city |
| 21:28 |
Calinou |
it should hopefully be there in less than 2 years… riiiight? |
| 21:58 |
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paramat joined #minetest-hub |
| 22:09 |
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EvergreenTree joined #minetest-hub |
| 22:12 |
Jordach |
IhrFussel you're US based or EU based |
| 22:12 |
IhrFussel |
EU |
| 22:13 |
Krock |
> when Asia doesn't exist |
| 22:13 |
Jordach |
scaleway has amsterdam and paris based dedis |
| 22:13 |
Jordach |
!ping jordach.net |
| 22:13 |
Jordach |
MinetestBot: pls |
| 22:13 |
Krock |
<3 MinetestBot |
| 22:13 |
MinetestBot |
<3 Krock |
| 22:13 |
Krock |
Jordach, she doesn't like you |
| 22:14 |
Jordach |
!up jordach.net |
| 22:14 |
MinetestBot |
jordach.net:30000 is up (13ms) |
| 22:14 |
Jordach |
:^) |
| 22:14 |
Jordach |
in Paris loaded with 3 SSDs |
| 22:17 |
benrob0329 |
can you get the textures definition from an entity? |
| 22:21 |
benrob0329 |
entities have supprisingly little documentation, especially in lua_api.txt |
| 22:21 |
benrob0329 |
:-/ |
| 22:24 |
Krock |
benrob0329, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L4373 |
| 22:24 |
Krock |
self.object:get_properties().textures |
| 22:24 |
Krock |
example from builtin: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/builtin/game/item_entity.lua#L60 |
| 22:27 |
benrob0329 |
Krock: thanks |
| 22:27 |
Krock |
!next |
| 22:27 |
MinetestBot |
Another satisfied customer. Next! |
| 22:46 |
benrob0329 |
how can I call custom functions in entitydef? |
| 22:47 |
Krock |
self:my_custom_function(arg1, arg2, ..) |
| 22:48 |
Krock |
it's just a table where you can call functions :) |
| 22:51 |
Megaf |
Shara: I just saved a young little birdie |
| 22:51 |
Shara |
Hmm? |
| 22:52 |
Megaf |
Found him on the floor of my garage. Got him carefuly in my hand and searched for his nest, found his nest and his bros and sis and put it back there |
| 22:52 |
Megaf |
all 3 healthy and safe now |
| 22:52 |
Megaf |
:) |
| 22:52 |
Megaf |
tiny bird, I think it was like a baby |
| 22:52 |
Megaf |
How do you call a baby bird? |
| 22:54 |
Shara |
Chick? |
| 22:56 |
sofar |
a snack? |
| 22:56 |
Shara |
:P |
| 22:56 |
sofar |
failed dinosaur! |
| 23:00 |
IhrFussel |
Most dedis I find are $50+ or have the same weak CPU as my current one (AMD Opteron) |
| 23:01 |
Megaf |
AMD Opteron is not weak at all |
| 23:01 |
sofar |
a 2009 amd opteron is weak |
| 23:01 |
Megaf |
is just Minetest is not designed to use an AMD Opteron, nor AMD Opteron is designed as a game server CPU |
| 23:01 |
Megaf |
Just fact, not a critic to Minetest this time ^ |
| 23:01 |
sofar |
disclaimer: my personal opinion does not represent my employers' views :) |
| 23:02 |
Megaf |
IhrFussel: Opteron is good for crunching numbers in parallel and running several web and database servers |
| 23:02 |
Megaf |
not for games |
| 23:03 |
Megaf |
Maybe, in my opinion, a very high clocked two thread modern Atom will beat a lot of more complex CPUs at same clock running Minetest |
| 23:03 |
IhrFussel |
And another huge lag...40 secons and average load went up to 3,5 |
| 23:04 |
Megaf |
Raven262: did you check the max lag on my server? |
| 23:04 |
Megaf |
I dont think I'm getting as high as 40 seconds, but I am gettings like 20 seconds when theres many people moving around loading areas |
| 23:06 |
Shara |
I sometimes wonder how I manage to run servers on VPS at all, given the problems you both get |
| 23:07 |
Megaf |
no no, I dont get many problems on my VPS, almost none. I'm getting some lag now due to old Atom CPU and HDD. Is expected |
| 23:07 |
Megaf |
in my Linode VPS the only problem was lack of RAM |
| 23:07 |
Shara |
I'd just consider such lags unacceptable, that's all. |
| 23:08 |
Megaf |
Oh, I do too |
| 23:08 |
Megaf |
Shara: what CPU you have by the way? |
| 23:08 |
Megaf |
in the VPS that is |
| 23:08 |
Shara |
Can't remember right now. |
| 23:09 |
Shara |
I use the third tier here: https://www.ovh.co.uk/vps/vps-ssd.xml |
| 23:15 |
Megaf |
That's it, I will drop my Linode VPS and switch to OVH VPS |
| 23:15 |
Megaf |
will have on OVH Dedi (where my MT server is and one OVH VPS) |
| 23:15 |
Calinou |
OVH VPS is not exactly cheap |
| 23:15 |
Calinou |
compared to the competition |
| 23:16 |
Calinou |
OVH dedicated is even worse :P |
| 23:16 |
Calinou |
(try So You Start or Kimsufi instead) |
| 23:16 |
Calinou |
(both are owned by OVH, they're just more accessible brands) |
| 23:16 |
Calinou |
<sofar> disclaimer: my personal opinion does not represent my employers' views :) |
| 23:16 |
Megaf |
Calinou: Kimsufi is OVH ;) |
| 23:16 |
Calinou |
I love this sentence, it means nothing :P |
| 23:16 |
Megaf |
Calinou: and my dedi is Kimsufi |
| 23:17 |
Megaf |
I'm running a /emergeblocks here 1000 from my spawn. What will happen? |
| 23:17 |
Megaf |
Will it generate only ungenarated areas or will it overwrite everything? |
| 23:18 |
Megaf |
(Of course I have a full backup of worlds directory made just prior running this command) |
| 23:18 |
Calinou |
what does "/help emergeblocks" say? |
| 23:18 |
Sokomine |
Megaf: hm, does placing a bird back into his nest work? i'm not sure if that's always a good idea |
| 23:18 |
Shara |
Calinou: It works, whereas DL has needed to change hosting multiple times since we tried to do it more cheaply. |
| 23:18 |
Megaf |
Calinou: /emergeblocks (here [radius]) | (<pos1> <pos2>): Load (or, if nonexistent, generate) map blocks contained in area pos1 to pos2 |
| 23:19 |
Calinou |
Shara: DL? |
| 23:19 |
Shara |
DarkLands. The other server I run. |
| 23:19 |
Calinou |
Megaf: that means it keeps already generated areas as-is :) |
| 23:19 |
Calinou |
Shara: we have many nonprofit hosts in France, the prices can be good, but they only speak French |
| 23:19 |
Shara |
Currently that one is hosted on Scaleway, and hosting problems have been minimal since going there |
| 23:19 |
Calinou |
really good, even |
| 23:19 |
Calinou |
(it's where my VPS is) |
| 23:19 |
Megaf |
Sokomine: well, I just aproached him from the place where his nest is and he actually jumped from my hand and ran to be just with his brothers |
| 23:20 |
Megaf |
dady and momy bird were not around |
| 23:20 |
Megaf |
Calinou: thanks, that's what I thought |
| 23:20 |
Sokomine |
Megaf: hope it works then |
| 23:20 |
Megaf |
So do I |
| 23:21 |
Megaf |
Sokomine: If I wasnt traveling tomorrow I'd actually keep birdie and feed him by hand |
| 23:21 |
IhrFussel |
74 secs lag ... |
| 23:21 |
Sokomine |
might be quite demanding if it's a very young one |
| 23:21 |
paramat |
emergeblocks only generates ungenerated world |
| 23:21 |
IhrFussel |
It gets worse and worse |
| 23:21 |
Sokomine |
IhrFussel: what are you doing? increasing lag? |
| 23:22 |
Sokomine |
perhaps...lag once in a while is less bad than constant high lag |
| 23:22 |
IhrFussel |
I'm doing nothing...my hoster is apparently too full |
| 23:22 |
Megaf |
IhrFussel: shutdown server, run CPU benchmark |
| 23:22 |
Megaf |
wait one hour |
| 23:22 |
Megaf |
shutdown server again |
| 23:22 |
Megaf |
run CPU benchmark again |
| 23:22 |
paramat |
but radius 100 nodes is rather large |
| 23:22 |
Megaf |
repeat 4 times |
| 23:22 |
paramat |
1000 |
| 23:22 |
shivajiva |
oversubscribed, cheeky buggers :/ |
| 23:22 |
Megaf |
IhrFussel: compare CPU times benchmark |
| 23:23 |
IhrFussel |
Megaf, customer support already implied that "this is normal" |
| 23:23 |
Megaf |
paramat: yep, I want 100% of spawn area generated |
| 23:23 |
Megaf |
I was walking around today and found areas close to spawn that were never visited |
| 23:24 |
shivajiva |
ofc the provider will guarantee it for a fee lol |
| 23:24 |
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EvergreenTree joined #minetest-hub |
| 23:24 |
paramat |
i find 4000x4000x80nodes takes 15mins |
| 23:24 |
Megaf |
IhrFussel: I have dedicated now, yet I still get these lag spikes. So I would just blame your provider yet |
| 23:24 |
Megaf |
paramat: emergeblocks update: 11928/2000376 blocks emerged (0.6%) |
| 23:24 |
Megaf |
emergeblocks update: 11995/2000376 blocks emerged (0.6%) |
| 23:24 |
Megaf |
it will take a while |
| 23:25 |
shivajiva |
sofar: https://github.com/shivajiva101/sban/tree/shivajiva101-patch-gui |
| 23:25 |
Megaf |
at least there's 16 Emerge threads running :D |
| 23:25 |
Megaf |
and all 4 hardware threads are maxed out |
| 23:26 |
paramat |
ah 1000^3 is similar volume, should be ok |
| 23:26 |
sofar |
shivajiva: oh, will review security asap |
| 23:26 |
shivajiva |
ty |
| 23:27 |
paramat |
oops |
| 23:27 |
paramat |
radius 100 is 2000^3 |
| 23:27 |
paramat |
*1000 |
| 23:28 |
IhrFussel |
Megaf, trust me when I say 95% of the time the max_lag is 0.15 ... and then SUDDENLY the server freezes for 30+ seconds |
| 23:28 |
Megaf |
Right |
| 23:28 |
IhrFussel |
And it can happen multiple times in a row |
| 23:28 |
paramat |
so will take a long time, maybe an hour or more |
| 23:28 |
IhrFussel |
It's a pure luck game |
| 23:28 |
|
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| 23:29 |
Megaf |
hm, during emergeblocks maxlag is 11 seconds, server still responsive |
| 23:29 |
Megaf |
amazing |
| 23:29 |
Megaf |
I was expecting it to totally freeze |
| 23:30 |
sofar |
shivajiva: well, you explicitly check privs in the formspec receive method, so after that it's all admins, so it's already good enough |
| 23:30 |
Megaf |
now, how come a normal gameplay mapgen/loading unloaded areas hangs everything and a heavy emerge blocks doesnt!? |
| 23:32 |
shivajiva |
sofar: nice to know I understood your methodology for securing the formspec :) |
| 23:33 |
sofar |
you are putting a lot of data into fields though, which I don't really like |
| 23:33 |
sofar |
better keep it tucked behind a priv :) |
| 23:33 |
sofar |
I'm glad the article was useful :) |
| 23:38 |
IhrFussel |
I want to kill my hoster 2017-12-29 00:02:51: ACTION[Server]: AVG LAG: 0.417 ... MAX LAG: 106.801 |
| 23:38 |
IhrFussel |
106!!! |
| 23:38 |
shivajiva |
how would you prefer the data to be displayed code wise ? |
| 23:39 |
Megaf |
IhrFussel: who do you get that message anyway? |
| 23:39 |
Megaf |
and just go back to your dedicated... |
| 23:40 |
Megaf |
# Server: version=0.4.17-Megaf, uptime=2045.22, max_lag=14.2526, clients={Megaf} |
| 23:40 |
Megaf |
Running emergeblocks ^ |
| 23:40 |
sofar |
# Server: version=0.4.16, uptime=8410, max_lag=0.116296, clients={GreenDimond} |
| 23:40 |
sofar |
somehow I'm really liking my hoster |
| 23:41 |
IhrFussel |
Megaf, I wrote an email with a few lag times to the support and wait for a reply... Maybe they will offer to "move" me somewhere else with less load not sure |
| 23:42 |
IhrFussel |
The lag times are reported by my avg_lag mod |
| 23:43 |
IhrFussel |
I linked it here some time ago |
| 23:43 |
shivajiva |
IhrFussel: my provider just charges me more for exceeding my quota and I stay on that tier for the rest of the billing period. Yours doesn't which may be a blessing |
| 23:45 |
benrob0329 |
Krock: what if I only wanted to set one texture from the textures table, how would I do that? |
| 23:45 |
benrob0329 |
set_properties({textures[1] = foo}) is rejected by my linter, so I'm not inclined to think it works |
| 23:45 |
Calinou |
sofar: what's your hoster by the way? |
| 23:45 |
IhrFussel |
shivajiva, I'm not exceeding any quota though, this VPS is very new (have it since yesterday) and there are too many crazy scripts running on the shared CPU... either that or the shared I/O got a problem |
| 23:46 |
IhrFussel |
Nobody can tell me that 100 seconds lag are "normal" not even for a VPS |
| 23:46 |
Jordach |
>using a linter |
| 23:46 |
Jordach |
benrob0329: git gud |
| 23:46 |
* Jordach |
doesn't use a linter at all |
| 23:46 |
Jordach |
8) |
| 23:47 |
benrob0329 |
Jordach: thats why i use a linter :^) |
| 23:47 |
benrob0329 |
because tracing errors sucks |
| 23:47 |
Jordach |
>Do you have a disability? |
| 23:47 |
Jordach |
>Yes |
| 23:47 |
Jordach |
>If yes, please give details |
| 23:47 |
Jordach |
>uSiNg A lInTeR |
| 23:49 |
Jordach |
i'm being sarcastic, because i'm moderately depressed right now |
| 23:49 |
sofar |
Calinou: ramnode, and AWS |
| 23:50 |
Megaf |
!server =IML= |
| 23:50 |
MinetestBot |
Megaf: "=IML= Clan Server - Minetest 0.4.17 Vanilla" | 179.179.75.90:30417 | Clients: 0/100, 0/0 | Version: 0.4.17-dev / minetest | Ping: 258ms |
| 23:50 |
Megaf |
fastest MT server ^ |
| 23:51 |
Jordach |
kek |
| 23:51 |
Jordach |
dat ping |
| 23:54 |
Sokomine |
IhrFussel: maybe you ought to be more friendly towards your hoster :-) |
| 23:54 |
Megaf |
Jordach: far away from bot... |
| 23:54 |
Megaf |
closer to you |
| 23:54 |
Megaf |
pint it yourself |
| 23:54 |
Megaf |
also, dat IP |
| 23:56 |
* Sokomine |
hands Jordach a chocolate cookie in order to cheer him up |
| 23:57 |
IhrFussel |
2017-12-28 20:01:43: ACTION[Server]: MAX LAG: 35.250 +++ 2017-12-28 21:00:48: ACTION[Server]: MAX LAG: 7.350 +++ 2017-12-28 22:02:48: ACTION[Server]: MAX LAG: 36.750 +++ 2017-12-28 23:01:05: ACTION[Server]: MAX LAG: 32.250 << do you guys notice how it's always around the same minute of the hour? |
| 23:58 |
IhrFussel |
I bet it will happen again in 3 minutes (01:02) |
