| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:02 |
Jordach |
Calinou, the CRT setting looks fucking awesome on my LG Ultrawide |
| 00:03 |
Calinou |
I use the default |
| 00:03 |
Jordach |
CRT looks clearer on my screen |
| 00:03 |
Calinou |
Roger9: well, I have a pretty solid Windows dev environment now :) |
| 00:03 |
Jordach |
i wish i could get Samsungs OLED rendering |
| 00:03 |
Calinou |
Linux doesn't quite work perfectly on my laptop |
| 00:03 |
Calinou |
or even on my desktop |
| 00:03 |
Calinou |
so I went back to Windows :/ |
| 00:05 |
benrob0329 |
Calinou: all Intel laptops FTW :P |
| 00:06 |
benrob0329 |
Although I had to install drivers for my old laptop before it worked properly |
| 00:07 |
Calinou |
my laptop is all Intel |
| 00:07 |
Calinou |
it still has many issues |
| 00:07 |
Calinou |
I ran Linux on it from February to June 2017 |
| 00:07 |
Calinou |
(Manjaro, kernel 4.9) |
| 00:08 |
benrob0329 |
"Many issues" is rather ambiguous |
| 00:39 |
|
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| 01:06 |
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sniper338 joined #minetest-hub |
| 01:07 |
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paramat joined #minetest-hub |
| 01:24 |
Jordach |
anyone know the luajit libs on apt-get |
| 01:25 |
Jordach |
libluajit-5.1-dev nevermind |
| 02:15 |
Roger9 |
I'm using Minetest from the AppImage, but it seems to be very laggy. |
| 02:38 |
|
Megaf joined #minetest-hub |
| 02:51 |
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ThomasMonroe joined #minetest-hub |
| 03:00 |
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neinwhal joined #minetest-hub |
| 03:32 |
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neinwhal joined #minetest-hub |
| 03:48 |
Megaf |
https://xkcd.com/371/ |
| 05:42 |
|
neinwhal_ joined #minetest-hub |
| 06:01 |
|
neinwhal_ joined #minetest-hub |
| 06:05 |
sofar |
https://i.imgur.com/siFOxj6.png |
| 06:05 |
sofar |
Does that look interesting? |
| 06:05 |
sofar |
it's not waving, it's just "slightly lower" water level |
| 06:49 |
|
neinwhal_ left #minetest-hub |
| 07:13 |
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CWz joined #minetest-hub |
| 08:22 |
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ssieb joined #minetest-hub |
| 09:09 |
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nerzhul joined #minetest-hub |
| 10:37 |
|
tenplus1 joined #minetest-hub |
| 10:38 |
tenplus1 |
hi folks |
| 10:43 |
Donbatman |
Hi tenplus1 |
| 10:43 |
tenplus1 |
Hey Don, how's it going ? |
| 10:43 |
Donbatman |
Good |
| 10:44 |
Donbatman |
How are you doing |
| 10:44 |
tenplus1 |
glad to hear :) am okie, just fixed bug in Bonemeal mod |
| 10:45 |
tenplus1 |
what ya been up to ? |
| 10:46 |
Donbatman |
Wife and I broke up so I moved and have been busy sorting through stuff and getting her ready to move |
| 10:46 |
tenplus1 |
erk, sorry to hear dude... |
| 10:47 |
Donbatman |
sorry? I am single now so I am free to do as I please :) |
| 10:47 |
tenplus1 |
lol dude... |
| 10:47 |
tenplus1 |
was worried when I didnt see you online for a while |
| 10:47 |
Donbatman |
Dog needs out. brb |
| 10:47 |
tenplus1 |
k |
| 10:47 |
Donbatman |
I got my dog :) |
| 10:48 |
tenplus1 |
dogs are kewl :) |
| 10:49 |
tenplus1 |
strangely enough "Grade A Under A" has been away for some time as well, was starting to think you were he |
| 10:50 |
|
Krock joined #minetest-hub |
| 10:50 |
tenplus1 |
hi Krock |
| 10:51 |
Krock |
hi tenplus1 |
| 10:52 |
Krock |
wasn't prepared this time. You seem to show up too less recently! |
| 10:52 |
tenplus1 |
been busy at work lately... |
| 10:52 |
tenplus1 |
our company is being bought over, so mass panic!!!! :P |
| 10:55 |
tenplus1 |
I had an idea for a foody mod that uses groups for crafting recipes so that it works with all food items in mods... e.g. strawberry will have food_strawberry=1 set for recipe |
| 10:56 |
tenplus1 |
gotta check forum tho, see if it's been done first :d |
| 10:57 |
Donbatman |
back |
| 10:57 |
Donbatman |
hi Krock |
| 11:00 |
* tenplus1 |
sips le coffee |
| 11:01 |
* Donbatman |
sips le Coke |
| 11:01 |
* tenplus1 |
looks at Krock |
| 11:01 |
* Donbatman |
wonders if Krock is gone to make coffee |
| 11:02 |
tenplus1 |
or a banana smoothie ? |
| 11:02 |
Donbatman |
Minetest 0.5.0 has some big changes |
| 11:03 |
tenplus1 |
yeah, was hoping they'd skip 0.4.17 and just move straight to 0.5.0 so everyone would need to upgrade already |
| 11:03 |
Donbatman |
Need to run 2 versions now |
| 11:03 |
tenplus1 |
am not even writing mods for 0.5.0 until official release |
| 11:03 |
tenplus1 |
it'll take a lot longer now |
| 11:04 |
Donbatman |
I have to go through all my mods now |
| 11:04 |
tenplus1 |
I updated to 0.4.16 functions already, so far so good... |
| 11:04 |
Donbatman |
Don't think it will effect many of my mods |
| 11:05 |
tenplus1 |
just gotta check for deprecated functions that scroll through console with warnings |
| 11:06 |
Donbatman |
I will get to that eventually |
| 11:07 |
Donbatman |
Should we maintain 2 versions of the mods or just upgrade them to only work on 0.5.0 |
| 11:07 |
tenplus1 |
Iwas hoping for a december release on 0.5.0, but they shoe horned 0.4.17 in there so I suppose we gotta write for that |
| 11:08 |
tenplus1 |
which slows down 0.5.0 mod develppment for when it DOES come out... |
| 11:08 |
tenplus1 |
cause players cant run both and connect to ALL servers on 0.4.17 |
| 11:08 |
tenplus1 |
sinec some are already using latest dev 0.5 |
| 11:09 |
Donbatman |
The 0.5 servers must be slow. So many players are android apps and they are not 0.5 yet |
| 11:09 |
tenplus1 |
0.4.16/17 cannot connect to 0.5 servers |
| 11:10 |
Donbatman |
I noticed that when I compiled the latest |
| 11:11 |
tenplus1 |
I wanna be able to tell all my players to update to 0.5 when stable is released and have ALL mods and servers follow with a decent client |
| 11:12 |
Donbatman |
Do you know if they have a proposed release date yet? |
| 11:12 |
tenplus1 |
sadly no... next release is 0.4.17... we we'll be a while away from 0.5 |
| 11:13 |
Donbatman |
I need to catch up on mt news |
| 11:14 |
tenplus1 |
the main change is the player model, a new 3d_armor mod is needed to use it properly and I've already tweaked invisibility potion mod to use it |
| 11:14 |
Krock |
hi Donbatman |
| 11:15 |
* Donbatman |
wonders if Krock has a coffee or a banana shake |
| 11:17 |
* Krock |
doesn't have either of them |
| 11:17 |
tenplus1 |
buuuuuu |
| 11:18 |
|
Jordach joined #minetest-hub |
| 11:18 |
tenplus1 |
hi Jordach |
| 11:28 |
tenplus1 |
Jordach: do you know when 0.5.0 is scheduled for release ? |
| 11:40 |
|
Krock joined #minetest-hub |
| 11:40 |
tenplus1 |
wb dude |
| 11:46 |
* Donbatman |
sips le coffee |
| 11:46 |
tenplus1 |
ehe |
| 11:47 |
tenplus1 |
I have a tiny box of Civet Cat Coffee to try, am hesitant tho :P |
| 11:47 |
tenplus1 |
https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2014/sep/19/civet-cat-coffee-worlds-most-expensive-brew-made-sustainably-kopi-luwak |
| 11:48 |
Donbatman |
Thats coffee cats crapped |
| 11:49 |
tenplus1 |
sorta, yeah :) that's why I'm hesitant |
| 11:49 |
tenplus1 |
but it's meant to taste amazing |
| 11:49 |
Donbatman |
taste is subjective |
| 11:50 |
tenplus1 |
very true... |
| 11:50 |
tenplus1 |
strangely enough I'm watching "Kitchen Nightmares" with Gordon Ramsay... so funny |
| 11:50 |
Donbatman |
lol |
| 11:53 |
tenplus1 |
so many of the fancy resto's are anything but, would rather eat from Gregg's :) |
| 11:54 |
Donbatman |
Ya |
| 11:55 |
Donbatman |
Rich people are gross. That is why I choose to be poor |
| 11:55 |
Donbatman |
:P |
| 11:55 |
shivajiva |
Hi folks, wb tenplus1 |
| 11:55 |
tenplus1 |
agree'd, am happy having just enough to get by |
| 11:55 |
tenplus1 |
hi shiva, how's tricks ? |
| 11:56 |
Donbatman |
hi shivajiva |
| 11:56 |
shivajiva |
not bad thanks, had fun? |
| 11:56 |
shivajiva |
Hi Don |
| 11:57 |
tenplus1 |
working more than fun :P ehe |
| 11:58 |
shivajiva |
I can confirm UI makes a shed load of priv checks on player join ~947 on my count |
| 11:59 |
shivajiva |
no wonder folks say it's slow |
| 11:59 |
tenplus1 |
eek, that many ?!?! |
| 12:00 |
shivajiva |
though with only 8 calls in the code something is looping |
| 12:01 |
tenplus1 |
for 947 calls it must be looping through all players numerous times |
| 12:01 |
tenplus1 |
heh |
| 12:01 |
shivajiva |
thats what I was thinking |
| 12:01 |
tenplus1 |
same way detached inventories looped through ALL players at one point and was thankfully fixed |
| 12:02 |
shivajiva |
I plan to hunt it down just for fun =) |
| 12:03 |
tenplus1 |
good luck dude, hope you find it :) |
| 12:03 |
Donbatman |
You can do it! |
| 12:03 |
tenplus1 |
the auth system needs a bit of work and sauth may be the way to go :D |
| 12:04 |
shivajiva |
it would be nice to stop it and see how much improvement to the response there is |
| 12:05 |
tenplus1 |
cacheing of player info on join would speed things up |
| 12:06 |
shivajiva |
I added some delay to the unload event to see if it helps logins that don't complete the first attempt |
| 12:07 |
shivajiva |
60 seconds before they are moved out of the cache |
| 12:09 |
shivajiva |
but tests on Hometown were a bit odd, 7 million touches of sqlite or it's schema in 30 seconds |
| 12:10 |
tenplus1 |
7 mil ? how many players online at the time ? |
| 12:10 |
shivajiva |
28 I think |
| 12:10 |
tenplus1 |
and were the touches outwith the map ? |
| 12:11 |
shivajiva |
CTF and RC don't get that kind of traffic with sauth but HT did and they were exclusively sauth.sqlite |
| 12:12 |
tenplus1 |
weird |
| 12:17 |
tenplus1 |
brb |
| 12:17 |
Shara |
DL, not RC. Still haven't tried it on RC :P |
| 12:18 |
shivajiva |
if I hadn't been pointed to the forum post I wouldn't even be aware of the issue, oh yes sorry DL |
| 12:18 |
Shara |
Also, hello :) |
| 12:18 |
shivajiva |
Hiya |
| 12:19 |
Donbatman |
Morning Shara |
| 12:19 |
Shara |
Hi Don :) |
| 12:19 |
davisonio |
hey |
| 12:28 |
|
Fixer joined #minetest-hub |
| 12:29 |
Shara |
Hi davisonio |
| 12:31 |
Shara |
And maybe I am wrong, but wasn't 0.4.17 just meant to be a small bugfix release? I'm not sure why that would cause delays to 0.5 |
| 12:34 |
tenplus1 |
hi fixer |
| 12:34 |
tenplus1 |
hi Shara |
| 12:34 |
Shara |
Hi tenplus1 |
| 12:35 |
tenplus1 |
hi davis |
| 12:35 |
* tenplus1 |
is making lunch :) nom time is upon us |
| 12:36 |
Donbatman |
This doesn't look too bad. https://github.com/minetest/minetest/milestone/9 |
| 12:36 |
sfan5 |
that doesn't mean 0.5 will be finished soon fyi |
| 12:36 |
Donbatman |
The auth.txt issue seems to be the biggest thing |
| 12:37 |
Donbatman |
Hi sfan5 |
| 12:37 |
Shara |
All I'm curious about is whether 0.4.17 being a thing delays it |
| 12:37 |
tenplus1 |
hi sfan |
| 12:37 |
Shara |
Personally I really want 0.4.17 |
| 12:38 |
tenplus1 |
0.4.17 is a good interim update but... since 0.5 breaks a few things inc. player models it would be better to urge updates to that before continuing with anything |
| 12:38 |
tenplus1 |
that way mod makers can tailor everything towards 0.5 just now instead of putting things off |
| 12:38 |
Shara |
tenplus1: Not everyone wants to rush into such a big update |
| 12:39 |
Shara |
Especially given the issues with all the apps and so on |
| 12:39 |
davisonio |
auth.txt has always had problems for me |
| 12:39 |
davisonio |
hope it gets fixed - too many times it's been corrupted |
| 12:40 |
Shara |
davisonio: there was a change recently that was meant to help prevent corruption |
| 12:40 |
tenplus1 |
sauth helps also davis |
| 12:40 |
davisonio |
is it in 0.4.16? |
| 12:40 |
Shara |
No, because it was recent |
| 12:40 |
davisonio |
ok I'll have to leave it till its stable then haha |
| 12:41 |
Shara |
I've switched to sauth on the server where I kept getting auth related problems |
| 12:41 |
davisonio |
will have a look into it |
| 12:41 |
davisonio |
also need to look into the new player database thing |
| 12:44 |
tenplus1 |
many new features to play with davis |
| 12:44 |
davisonio |
exciting times :) |
| 12:44 |
tenplus1 |
am eager to see what shiva finds with the sql checks |
| 12:47 |
shivajiva |
the thing about HT's issue is that it suggests unique non cached player entries or the database file wouldn't be touched only the cache. Now how the hell does the hardware support 7 million logins in 30 seconds |
| 12:48 |
Shara |
I showed on DL that sauth wasn't even being touch unless players logged in |
| 12:48 |
Shara |
touched* |
| 12:49 |
Shara |
And despite socerykid seeming to think no sauth using server other than HT sees decent activity, the server list simply disagrees. DL is often pushing at it's player cap, which means in the background it's getting lots of prejoins that never make it through |
| 12:50 |
Shara |
(this is happening at the moment) |
| 12:50 |
Shara |
And CTF is clearly busy |
| 12:50 |
Shara |
So this can't simply be because HT is busy. |
| 12:52 |
shivajiva |
it's not, the cache would handle that, something is constantly checking offline players on that server |
| 12:53 |
Shara |
Yup, has to be,which implies it's not sauth at all. |
| 12:53 |
davisonio |
strange - I remember the days when every single player file was loaded into RAM - maybe a bit like that |
| 12:53 |
sfan5 |
davisonio: it's possible to backport these fixes onto 0.4.16 |
| 12:53 |
Shara |
Though have to wonder why they only see this when using sauth |
| 12:53 |
sfan5 |
this is what 0.4.17 will be doing actually |
| 12:54 |
davisonio |
great, if its in 0.4.17 that's the best |
| 12:54 |
Shara |
sfan5: will 0.4.17 include the ability for the server to limit CSM use? |
| 12:54 |
tenplus1 |
yeah, that was another big issue I was hoping 0.5 would fix.... if it's in 0.4.17 then all is good |
| 12:54 |
sfan5 |
Shara: nope |
| 12:54 |
tenplus1 |
dammit |
| 12:54 |
Shara |
Ugh. ANy chance of it being there? |
| 12:54 |
Shara |
It's a pretty big issue. |
| 12:54 |
sfan5 |
since it will be backwards compat with 0.4.16 or older you can't guarantee that the client would actually have the csm limits code |
| 12:55 |
Shara |
Wait. So all of that is client side?? |
| 12:55 |
sfan5 |
yes, how else would you do that? |
| 12:55 |
Shara |
SSSo actually there is no way for aserver to limit CSM after all then. |
| 12:55 |
Shara |
So* |
| 12:55 |
|
IhrFussel joined #minetest-hub |
| 12:55 |
tenplus1 |
hi fussel |
| 12:55 |
IhrFussel |
Hi tenplus1 |
| 12:56 |
sfan5 |
correct, the server can't force the client to do or not do some things |
| 12:56 |
shivajiva |
anyone can remove the code and compile a version that ignores the server |
| 12:56 |
sfan5 |
the only way to 100% fix e.g. oredetect would be not sending occluded ores (sending them as if they were stone) |
| 12:56 |
sfan5 |
which adds a lot of overhead |
| 12:56 |
Shara |
It's not about ores sfan5 |
| 12:56 |
IhrFussel |
That the game sometimes doesn't loa the server list is honestly unacceptable... can't you include a retry or even 2 within X secs? I literally just thought my internet was out cause the client couldn't load the servers |
| 12:56 |
sfan5 |
shivajiva: it's the same with fly, fast & noclip checks, which is good enough usually |
| 12:57 |
Shara |
It's about the client's ability to send things to the server as well. |
| 12:57 |
Shara |
I want the ability to stop people using those colour codes and things |
| 12:57 |
shivajiva |
not good enough to keep me running a server sfan |
| 12:57 |
sfan5 |
shivajiva: well sorry, we're not gonna implement DRM |
| 12:57 |
* tenplus1 |
wants a way to disable csm for server |
| 12:57 |
Shara |
tenplus1: it's just been confirmed we'll never really get it |
| 12:57 |
sfan5 |
color codes can be stripped server-side |
| 12:57 |
Shara |
sfan5: not in current stable they can't |
| 12:58 |
* shivajiva |
*sighs* |
| 12:58 |
shivajiva |
I may as well leave now then huh sfan5? |
| 12:58 |
sfan5 |
sounds like a missing feature |
| 12:58 |
Shara |
sfan5: can that at least get in 0.4.17 please? |
| 12:59 |
sfan5 |
i doubt it's actually impossible, might just be impossible from Lua |
| 12:59 |
sfan5 |
shivajiva: if that is your conclusion then you have interpreted the situation incorrectly |
| 13:00 |
shivajiva |
then clarify it once and for all pls |
| 13:00 |
Shara |
The issue is that the barrier to this kind of thing is still massively reduced |
| 13:00 |
Shara |
Since I assume editing the client to reenable CSM is much simpler than also coding what the CSM would do |
| 13:00 |
Shara |
You've basically reduced a whole host of things to the same level of entry as enabling fly and noclip |
| 13:01 |
sfan5 |
correct |
| 13:01 |
Shara |
So actually none of the concerns have really been addressed at all |
| 13:01 |
IhrFussel |
Shara, there is a solution that works in 0.4.16 stable...at least for chat messages minetest.strip_colors(message) |
| 13:01 |
sfan5 |
Shara: you want this in 0.4.17, correct? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/minetest.conf.example#L1041 |
| 13:02 |
sfan5 |
because i'm pretty sure a mod could do that |
| 13:02 |
Shara |
End result: CSM has still made us much more vulnerable |
| 13:02 |
Shara |
sfan5: Yes, would like that in please. |
| 13:03 |
Shara |
I'd rather not need to create mods for something that's there as real functionality if I can avoid it |
| 13:04 |
IhrFussel |
Isn't there a merged PR that restricts CSMs?? You could simply backport it to 0.4.17 |
| 13:04 |
sfan5 |
ok, noted |
| 13:04 |
Shara |
Fussel, nope, it's all client side |
| 13:04 |
Shara |
sfan5: Thanks |
| 13:05 |
tenplus1 |
sfan5: we arent trying to rain on a good feature, just wanting control to stop users using it for bad things |
| 13:05 |
Shara |
Compatibility break is needed or older clients will still just be able to carry on with the CSM |
| 13:05 |
IhrFussel |
But server owners were told that they will be able to control which CSM functions are accepted on the server |
| 13:05 |
Shara |
There was actually someone doing the rounds to see how many servers were vulnerable to certain things in CSM yesterday and many were. |
| 13:06 |
Shara |
Thankfully that person was out to alert server owners, not abuse things. |
| 13:06 |
sfan5 |
what are those "certain things" if i may ask? |
| 13:06 |
Shara |
In this case, something that's thankfully handled in the mod responsible |
| 13:06 |
Shara |
But of course lots of people don't constantly update to current versions |
| 13:07 |
IhrFussel |
sfan5, I can name you one (which has been fixed in MTG-dev but still): taking items from the creative inventory |
| 13:07 |
sfan5 |
can you point me to the commit that fixed that? since i'm pretty sure that mtg has always done this correctly |
| 13:08 |
IhrFussel |
sfan5, https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/commit/a1d35f3d69dbed8cd9ce317a11f2bd2f7c816c75#diff-70fc65948f2178f6fc1f14ffc7c36b8a |
| 13:09 |
Fixer |
hi |
| 13:09 |
Shara |
Problem here is that MTG is currently focused on 0.5? Can people on current stable even simply update to it? |
| 13:10 |
IhrFussel |
Shara, No I had to manually edit the files |
| 13:10 |
sfan5 |
it is and no |
| 13:10 |
Shara |
So many issues with mod compatibility as well now. |
| 13:10 |
Shara |
So it shouldn't be surprising server owners aren't managing to keep up to date |
| 13:11 |
IhrFussel |
Krock even tried the "cheat" on my server and asked me how I fixed it =P |
| 13:12 |
Krock |
creative or worldedit? |
| 13:12 |
Shara |
creative |
| 13:12 |
Shara |
I really, really hope that everyone has updated WE by now |
| 13:12 |
sfan5 |
IhrFussel: hm indeed didn't even remember that |
| 13:12 |
IhrFussel |
But I can assure you that many public servers do NOT have that fix from MTG-dev ... so they are at risk of being exploited |
| 13:12 |
* tenplus1 |
has |
| 13:13 |
Krock |
Shara, if you see a server, there's a script which uses the hole to patch itself |
| 13:13 |
Shara |
On one level it's great that CSM is revealing the problems, but still leaving the server no way to prevent CSM, so that when the next issue is found servers are helpless... |
| 13:13 |
Shara |
This is just plain bad |
| 13:14 |
Fixer |
iirc there was nodeupdate thing |
| 13:14 |
Shara |
Krock: Good to know, but I still prefer to try speak to the owner first |
| 13:15 |
IhrFussel |
CSM makes server exploits more trivial and I think everyone will agree there... before CSM it was not as easy to find flaws in mod's code |
| 13:15 |
Shara |
Fussel: like I said above, it's reduced the barrier to learning to enable CSM in the client again, instead of them needing to also work out how to write the code |
| 13:15 |
Shara |
So same level as fly/fast |
| 13:16 |
Shara |
And given no one predicted many of the things that have appeared with CSM, no one can say they know there won't be more |
| 13:17 |
IhrFussel |
I'd guess max 5% of the MT userbase has a clue about c++ while lots more know how to install an enable CSMs |
| 13:17 |
Shara |
IhrFussel: editing a bit of code to skip a check is trivial compared to needing to actually write code |
| 13:18 |
sfan5 |
you still need to compile a working version of minetest after "editing a bit of code" |
| 13:18 |
IhrFussel |
Shara, barely any 10 yr old kid would dare to even look at that source code... while installing a CSM is no problem for young kids |
| 13:18 |
sfan5 |
which is very much nontrivial on e.g. windows |
| 13:18 |
Shara |
Even I've managed to compile on Windows :P |
| 13:18 |
Shara |
But yea, I know |
| 13:18 |
Shara |
It still lowers it |
| 13:19 |
sfan5 |
regarding taking control away from server owners: i believe this discussion has been had already and having it again would be pointless |
| 13:19 |
IhrFussel |
And young kids are *mostly* the ones that want to cause trouble and troll servers and "hack" them |
| 13:19 |
sfan5 |
I'm unable to find where this discussion was though (forums?) |
| 13:19 |
Fixer |
IhrFussel: yeah, but there are bright ones 10+ that can do that |
| 13:20 |
IhrFussel |
sfan5, what happened to the bold claim "don't worry server owners will be able to white/blacklist CSM functions in the future"? |
| 13:20 |
Shara |
So server owners' concerns are pointless in this. Good to know. |
| 13:20 |
sfan5 |
IhrFussel: that's what flavor limits are |
| 13:20 |
tenplus1 |
I use the csm chest_inspector mod and it can easily open chests and clone items |
| 13:21 |
sfan5 |
that's a bug in minetest_game / whatever provides your chests |
| 13:21 |
Shara |
It only takes one player who is able to give themselves items to wreck a survival server's economy and spoil the game for quite a long time |
| 13:21 |
sfan5 |
csm "just" exposes those issues and that isn't what you should be worried about |
| 13:21 |
tenplus1 |
doesnt matter whast mod provides the chest, it can open the "main" inventory inside any chest and remove items |
| 13:21 |
IhrFussel |
So there IS a way to disable certain CSM functions in 0.5.0-dev now? A server-side way? |
| 13:22 |
sfan5 |
yes and no |
| 13:22 |
tenplus1 |
it doesnt adhere to the on_inventory_move functions at all cause it opens it's own formspec |
| 13:22 |
sfan5 |
IhrFussel: with 0.5 the server can tell the client "please don't use this, this and this" and a normal client will obey it |
| 13:22 |
sfan5 |
tenplus1: that's impossible, inventory movements are server side and will always result in callbacks being called |
| 13:23 |
IhrFussel |
Who thought that having the restriction client side would make any sense? We server owners were told that we could "disable" any kind of CSM if we wanted to |
| 13:23 |
lisac |
WTF I didn't know that bug became public |
| 13:23 |
lisac |
good morning. |
| 13:23 |
tenplus1 |
hi lisac |
| 13:23 |
Shara |
Hi lisac |
| 13:23 |
* tenplus1 |
checks something |
| 13:23 |
lisac |
I notified most server owners with affected servers yesterday. |
| 13:23 |
Raven262 |
Hello everyone. |
| 13:23 |
sfan5 |
you seem to be implying that fixing this is easy |
| 13:23 |
tenplus1 |
hey raven |
| 13:23 |
lisac |
tenplus1, Xanadu didn't seem to be affected by the bug. |
| 13:24 |
Shara |
lisac: it's come up a few times, but didn't want to outright say it was you testing it :) |
| 13:24 |
Fixer |
tenplus1: use where? |
| 13:24 |
tenplus1 |
dammit, chet inspector lets you remove everything without check |
| 13:24 |
tenplus1 |
conformed |
| 13:24 |
lisac |
I hope not everyone wants to lynch lisac. |
| 13:24 |
tenplus1 |
*confirmed |
| 13:24 |
* shivajiva |
waits patiently for a reply from sfan5 |
| 13:24 |
tenplus1 |
which bug lisac ? |
| 13:24 |
Shara |
lisac: nope, the way you were doing it was pretty responsible and helpful |
| 13:24 |
lisac |
yay |
| 13:24 |
lisac |
tenplus1, you can access the creative inventory with a CSM |
| 13:24 |
sfan5 |
even AAA games by multi-million dollar companies struggle with cheaters despite invasive anticheat and DRM, please tell me how a FOSS project can feasibly enforce some limits |
| 13:25 |
lisac |
on servers using outdated creative mod |
| 13:25 |
sfan5 |
shivajiva: the "having this discussion again would pointless" kind of was the reply but you should also read the above |
| 13:25 |
Shara |
sfan5: we don't expect all cheats ever to be prevented |
| 13:25 |
lisac |
if anyone wants the test code I used, pm me |
| 13:25 |
tenplus1 |
xanadu uses custom creative mod |
| 13:25 |
sfan5 |
pretty much the only way to address your concerns would be to remove CSM again |
| 13:25 |
lisac |
I already gave it to... 3 people? |
| 13:26 |
lisac |
Nore, Sofar, and Shara. |
| 13:26 |
Shara |
But we do expect the developer team not to add features that specifically low the barrier to cheating |
| 13:26 |
lisac |
they seem pretty trusted. |
| 13:26 |
Shara |
lower* |
| 13:26 |
shivajiva |
so client prediction / server reconciliation of movement/flying/noclip will never be realised in minetest? |
| 13:26 |
IhrFussel |
lisac, the fix is on github so anyone who looks for exploits can easily find it |
| 13:27 |
lisac |
IhrFussel, Ik, yet half of the servers I checked yesterday don't apply it. |
| 13:27 |
sfan5 |
shivajiva: not what i was trying to say, minetest still does that to the extent possible |
| 13:27 |
IhrFussel |
lisac, cause it would break their MTG ... current MTG is not compatible with 0.4.16 |
| 13:28 |
sfan5 |
Shara: that's a reasonable position, but merging CSM into minetest means the dev team has accepted the drawback of lowering the barrier to cheating |
| 13:28 |
IhrFussel |
The only way would be editing files manually (like I did) ... but server owners who are not very tech savvy likely won't do that |
| 13:28 |
Shara |
mod writers, especially the devs with MTG, just tend to want to rush ahead and play with new features. They don't generally support servers very well at such times |
| 13:29 |
Shara |
sfan5: It's not the dev team that has to face the consequences |
| 13:29 |
lisac |
IhrFussel, They just need to update creative mod. |
| 13:29 |
sfan5 |
mtg should probably have a stable branch with backports |
| 13:29 |
Jordach |
tenplus1, grab the latest x64 or x86 build from sfan5 |
| 13:29 |
Shara |
Yes, MTG really should |
| 13:29 |
sfan5 |
Jordach: (x86 is actually broken since mingw is making a mess again >_>) |
| 13:29 |
|
sniper570 joined #minetest-hub |
| 13:30 |
tenplus1 |
Jordach: unless it runs standalone inside a folder I cannot run it alongside stable 0.4.16 and keep mods working properly |
| 13:30 |
Shara |
I would love, really love, to move both my servers back to using MTG, but it's just not possible as things are |
| 13:30 |
shivajiva |
can you stop using DRM as an excuse for the request for prediction/reconciliation of events to stop hacking. Are you saying nothing else is possible and we have to live with what we currently have? |
| 13:30 |
Jordach |
tenplus1, sfan5's builds do that |
| 13:30 |
Jordach |
it's windows :^) |
| 13:30 |
IhrFussel |
lisac, creative alone *could* be compatible with 0.4.16 ... I'm not sure |
| 13:30 |
* tenplus1 |
uses linux |
| 13:30 |
lisac |
IhrFussel, Craigs was fixed by updating the creative mod. |
| 13:30 |
lisac |
Client: HexChat 2.12.4 • OS: Ubuntu "artful" 17.10 • CPU: AMD A8-7600 Radeon R7, 10 Compute Cores 4C+6G (3.09GHz) • Memory: Physical: 6.6 GiB Total (2.7 GiB Free) Swap: 7.9 GiB Total (7.9 GiB Free) • Storage: 754.0 GB / 1.1 TB (335.6 GB Free) • VGA: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Kaveri [Radeon R7 Graphics] @ Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Family 15h • Uptime: 1d 19h 42m 1s |
| 13:30 |
jas_ |
Shara: server tend to prefer stable environments that don't change except to fix bugs and, maybe show new features that are proven stable, yes? i don't believe that's what the dev branch is tho. then again the master branch is the dev branch but nevermind that lol |
| 13:30 |
tenplus1 |
hi jas |
| 13:30 |
sfan5 |
shivajiva: it's not an excuse. what i have in mind here is e.g. chat, how do you differ between what someone typed and something sent by csm? you can't |
| 13:30 |
* lisac |
doesn't miss a chance to run sysinfo |
| 13:31 |
jas_ |
hello |
| 13:31 |
sfan5 |
minetest will still check what the client said it did |
| 13:31 |
sfan5 |
and it always did that |
| 13:31 |
jas_ |
tenplus1 :^) |
| 13:31 |
sfan5 |
if a csm mod allows duplicating from items / taking from chests that's a bug in minetest_game and it should definitely be fixed |
| 13:31 |
Shara |
jas_: problem is compatibility breaks, then stable version isn't maintained |
| 13:32 |
lisac |
tenplus1, Can I get a 10 minute 'Use CSM' pass on Xanadu? I wanna try to see if it's possible to open locked chests. |
| 13:32 |
Shara |
I believe current stable of a mod should always be maintained with bug fixes (especially MTG) up until the engine updates to a new stable version |
| 13:32 |
lisac |
I'll of course pm you the results. |
| 13:32 |
jas_ |
compat doesn't break in "stable", that's opposite of its definition |
| 13:32 |
tenplus1 |
lisac: ok, use the one's outside the arena... |
| 13:32 |
Shara |
jas_: current dev breaks from stable |
| 13:32 |
jas_ |
if you want a 0.4.16 server you get an 0.4.16 server haha sorry, i digress |
| 13:32 |
lisac |
okay, thanks |
| 13:32 |
lisac |
Can someone contact the admins of "*** Miners World ***' |
| 13:33 |
Shara |
It's recommended NOT to run 0.5 servers currently, yet MTG maints fixes only for 0.5 |
| 13:33 |
lisac |
they are fully affected. |
| 13:33 |
Shara |
See the problem? |
| 13:33 |
Jordach |
>runs 0.5.x server as development testing and feedback |
| 13:33 |
Jordach |
uwotm87 |
| 13:33 |
Shara |
lisac: Maybe don't reveal that in public where everyone can now go abuse it? |
| 13:33 |
Krock |
you can look at any data sent by the server. but this doesn't mean that locked chests can be plundered |
| 13:34 |
lisac |
Shara, I sent him a PM yesterday |
| 13:35 |
lisac |
and only three people have the mod. |
| 13:35 |
Shara |
Pretty sure anyone can get it though |
| 13:35 |
lisac |
only if they write their own. |
| 13:35 |
sfan5 |
Shara: https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1948 |
| 13:35 |
* Krock |
gets interested |
| 13:35 |
lisac |
I won't tell everyone about the affected servers, if you think that's best. |
| 13:36 |
sfan5 |
another question that arises is whether the engine urgently needs any fixes so a backports branch would have to be created too |
| 13:36 |
Shara |
sfan5: thank you |
| 13:37 |
Shara |
I thought 0.4.17 would address that? |
| 13:37 |
Krock |
sfan5, why not apply them to stable-0.4 ? It'll still be stable, as the commits have been tested/used a lot already |
| 13:37 |
sfan5 |
Krock: if you're a distro pulling from stable-0.4 you don't want some sort of working state between .16 and .17, you want the stable version which is .16 |
| 13:38 |
Krock |
i.e. constant HEAD? |
| 13:38 |
sfan5 |
separating these doesn't really hurt |
| 13:38 |
sfan5 |
yea |
| 13:38 |
Krock |
okay, I see |
| 13:38 |
|
tenplus1 left #minetest-hub |
| 13:42 |
shivajiva |
sfan5: sounds like you are asking me to solve a conundrum of dev adding the holes in the first place... |
| 13:42 |
sfan5 |
? |
| 13:42 |
Krock |
will check whether this chest inspector thingy is really something to worry about |
| 13:43 |
shivajiva |
e.g. chat, how do you differ between what someone typed and something sent by csm? you can't |
| 13:43 |
sfan5 |
oh yea, this wouldn't exist if csm wasn't added ofc |
| 13:43 |
sfan5 |
<sfan5> pretty much the only way to address your concerns would be to remove CSM again |
| 13:44 |
shivajiva |
might be easier to fix though :) |
| 13:44 |
shivajiva |
my point is we had holes, now we have more |
| 13:50 |
shivajiva |
I just don't understand why more and more holes are added whilst people turn my concerns into 'he wants DRM' so they can ignore or accept the holes |
| 13:51 |
jas_ |
there's probably a way to have control over connecting clients, and for all parties to be able to modify their programs within the server rules. |
| 13:52 |
Shara |
My issue: |
| 13:52 |
Shara |
CSM doesn't change single player experience. Since the player must run the mod regardless of what kind of mod it is |
| 13:52 |
jas_ |
csm could change single player experience. |
| 13:52 |
Shara |
This tells us CSM is just about servers. |
| 13:52 |
jas_ |
it's not impossible at all |
| 13:52 |
Shara |
jas_: You miss the point. may as well be added like a server mod then |
| 13:53 |
Shara |
Nothing is saved by it being CSM |
| 13:53 |
jas_ |
i may indeed |
| 13:53 |
jas_ |
but about that, you could have a singleplayer server! |
| 13:53 |
jas_ |
haha |
| 13:53 |
Shara |
Okay, ignoring you since you are just trying to make jokes of it ;) |
| 13:53 |
Shara |
But this means CSM is just about servers. |
| 13:54 |
Shara |
Yet the devs decide it's okay to accept the risks... on behalf of the server owners who must live with them |
| 13:54 |
sfan5 |
in it's current state csm is supposed to enhance multiplayer experience without the user and server owner agreeing on what is beneficial |
| 13:54 |
Shara |
Yet here you see the server owners aren't exactly happy with this |
| 13:54 |
Shara |
sfan5: But why should people be able to do what they like with my server? |
| 13:54 |
Shara |
I choose to run and pay for that server, so shouldn't I have the right to determine what the user experience is? |
| 13:54 |
sfan5 |
that's a good question |
| 13:55 |
jas_ |
totally valid concern |
| 13:55 |
jas_ |
but minetest is an engine, and a server, and a client, and a game |
| 13:55 |
Shara |
As a server owner, CSM is doing me no favours and has given me a bunch of problems |
| 13:55 |
sfan5 |
it all depends on how far that goes |
| 13:55 |
jas_ |
so there's got to be a balance struck somewhere |
| 13:55 |
sfan5 |
should the server owner be able to forbid me to change the font? |
| 13:55 |
Shara |
sfan5: End of the day, if I am providing a poor experience, I won't get players anyway |
| 13:56 |
Shara |
Both my servers are p[retty busy, so that should tell you I have some clue what I am doing |
| 13:56 |
sfan5 |
in its current state csm does go a little far, there's no denying that |
| 13:56 |
Shara |
I don't mind a player changing their own font, as viewed by them |
| 13:56 |
Shara |
I mind if they change it so I see it and other players see it |
| 13:56 |
Shara |
I should be the one deciding how players affect other people's experience of my server |
| 13:56 |
jas_ |
isn't it a matter of enabling the server the ability the mandate what the csm can get away with? i had thought this was what flavours was about (show's what i know) |
| 13:57 |
Shara |
jas_: I'd thought the same until today |
| 13:57 |
jas_ |
not the case, eh? |
| 13:57 |
jas_ |
sorry, i know you're not in the mood for jokes |
| 13:57 |
sfan5 |
i honestly don't know what's so surprising about the fact that you can't force the client to do what you want |
| 13:58 |
Shara |
sfan5: Don't twist my words please. The client can do whatever it wants - if it doesn't in turn affect the server |
| 13:58 |
jas_ |
if a player strays far enough away from the server's purpose, it becomes painful |
| 13:58 |
Shara |
Client wants it's own font/colours/music/textures/player appearance? - carry on |
| 13:58 |
jas_ |
and self-deprecating? i like that one, heh ok now i'm saying g'night |
| 13:58 |
sfan5 |
wasn't refering to what you said, just in general |
| 13:59 |
Shara |
I thought CSM was meant to take the load off servers, but it's not doing that |
| 13:59 |
Shara |
Instead it's making us more vulnerable to things that don't get quick fixes and sometimes can't be fixed at all |
| 14:00 |
sfan5 |
csm won't be able to take any load off servers until mod sending is implemented |
| 14:00 |
Shara |
And when will that be? |
| 14:00 |
sfan5 |
dunno |
| 14:00 |
Shara |
So why was CSM added to begin with? |
| 14:00 |
Shara |
It's clearly not ready, and there is currently not enough value from it to offset the problems |
| 14:00 |
sfan5 |
why was it added just before a release while it wasn't really ready? i have no idea |
| 14:01 |
Shara |
But we can't expect anything to be done to address this? |
| 14:01 |
sfan5 |
the question is what you are expecting to be done |
| 14:02 |
Shara |
I'm not the developer, and don't understand the codebase half as well yet as I'd probably need to in order to identify options |
| 14:02 |
Shara |
But as much as I know wanting it doesn't make it happen, I want there to be some answer |
| 14:04 |
Shara |
I don't think any of the server owner want to fight the devs on this. I certainly prefer trying to work with you on solutions. But it doesn't change that the devs choose to accept the risk, so this is actually on the devs to address. |
| 14:05 |
sfan5 |
the problem remains that there isn't much you can do about this |
| 14:06 |
sfan5 |
frustration about item duplication & cheats is warranted, but this is not the fault of CSM, it merely exposed these issues |
| 14:06 |
sfan5 |
(not implying that you've said so) |
| 14:07 |
Shara |
So how can we make sure that any new issues found are easier to deal with quickly? |
| 14:08 |
Shara |
A stable branch of MTG will help, but is there anything else you can think of? |
| 14:08 |
sfan5 |
actually do the backport thing instead of ignoring the issue |
| 14:08 |
sfan5 |
anything else? no |
| 14:11 |
Shara |
I'd be happy to see the backport and MTG running a stable version for now at least |
| 14:12 |
* Fixer |
runs 1.4.7 FTB Ultimate and sips water while observing the chat |
| 14:12 |
Shara |
Though with MTG at least, I'm concerned we'll just see the "not enough devs" excuse :) |
| 14:14 |
Fixer |
WILL???? |
| 14:14 |
Fixer |
wtf |
| 14:14 |
Fixer |
it is not enough like since 2010 |
| 14:14 |
Fixer |
especially for MTG, situation there is critical |
| 14:15 |
Shara |
Fixer: we're just talking about bug fixes |
| 14:15 |
* Fixer |
goes back to minetest clone |
| 14:21 |
Calinou |
shivajiva: server-side physics are not viable for Minecraft-likes because of the lag that occurs during map generation and other intensive tasks |
| 14:21 |
Calinou |
the only way to proceed is verified client-side physics |
| 14:22 |
Shara |
Surely whether lag from one thing removes the posibility of other checks is down to what any individual server can handle and how busy it is? |
| 14:22 |
Shara |
(om other words, it could be optional for those who can make use of it and who need it, since not every server gets the same problems) |
| 14:22 |
Shara |
in* |
| 14:27 |
shivajiva |
Calinou: The implementation is beyond me but the idea we need validation has to be taken seriously or this is just a continuation of the 'joke' that celeron55 started imo |
| 14:28 |
Calinou |
Shara: indeed, the server-side checks could be turned off easily if needed |
| 14:28 |
Shara |
For example, I probably wouldn't enable them on my creative server, but on my survival I'd definitely be interested in seeing if the server could handle it |
| 14:29 |
Calinou |
indeed |
| 14:29 |
Calinou |
on creative, you don't care about movement cheats, usually :P |
| 14:29 |
Shara |
Survivals are also generally the servers that suffer a bit less from mapgen lag, because on creative it's normal to hand out fly and fast, so players can generate map much more quickly, while on survival the focus is usually on slower progression |
| 14:30 |
Shara |
On a server like shivajiva's old one, where players giving themself fly can completely break how the game works, there wasn't even much map to generate |
| 14:39 |
Calinou |
the map can be pregenerated if you have spare resources :P |
| 14:39 |
rubenwardy |
Calinou, there shouldn't be any lag from mapgen |
| 14:39 |
Calinou |
you could pregenerate the areas the players are likely to venture into |
| 14:39 |
rubenwardy |
> multithreading |
| 14:39 |
Calinou |
on my server, -2048..2048 is pregenerated between -128 and 128, IIRC |
| 14:39 |
Calinou |
I use num_emerge_threads = 2 |
| 14:40 |
Calinou |
https://gist.github.com/Calinou/683cb0748efe867be6e18f86f206a6b7 |
| 14:44 |
rubenwardy |
I personally think that the chest issues is a plus in CSM's column |
| 14:44 |
rubenwardy |
it exposed vulnerabilities which are easily fixable |
| 14:44 |
rubenwardy |
and as for back ports, I think we should do this generally |
| 14:44 |
rubenwardy |
it's good for quality control |
| 14:45 |
Shara |
A big part of the issue is how things are handled once they are found. If this is handled better, it will go a long way to helping. |
| 14:46 |
rubenwardy |
CSM shouldn't have been a part of 0.4.16 |
| 14:48 |
rubenwardy |
I'm also very very sceptical about the networking PR |
| 14:48 |
Shara |
There does seem to be a trend for big things to get merged without the consequences really being understood. |
| 14:51 |
rubenwardy |
CSM for me should only be for adding low-latency audio-visual modifications. For example, drawing to a formspec in a canvas sort of way. Prediction of cart animations |
| 14:51 |
rubenwardy |
not for this WoW client provided bullshit |
| 14:51 |
Shara |
Agreed. |
| 15:06 |
Jordach |
TIL jeija works for the university of stuttgart |
| 15:07 |
Jordach |
https://github.com/physcip/physdash |
| 15:07 |
Jordach |
extra proof |
| 15:07 |
Jordach |
https://github.com/physcip |
| 15:09 |
Calinou |
I wonder if my university has a GitHub organization |
| 15:10 |
Calinou |
one of my teachers has some GitHub presence, I know that |
| 15:10 |
Calinou |
(we have to use one of his softwares for an ssignment :P) |
| 15:10 |
Calinou |
assignment* |
| 15:11 |
rubenwardy |
https://github.com/cssbristol |
| 15:22 |
Fixer |
i was surprised to see so much big mc mods that are open source |
| 15:22 |
Fixer |
https://github.com/agaricusb/ForgeMod/wiki/List-of-Open-Source-Forge-Mods |
| 15:24 |
sfan5 |
hmm my uni doesn't seem to have a github page |
| 15:24 |
sfan5 |
just individual labs |
| 15:24 |
sfan5 |
(a few of them) |
| 15:24 |
Fixer |
very hip uni |
| 15:26 |
Roger9 |
Spontaneous. |
| 15:44 |
|
oOChainLynxOo joined #minetest-hub |
| 15:45 |
IhrFussel |
rubenwardy, "there shouldn't be any lag from mapgen" well that fully depends on the mods the server uses and my server even lags when LOADING mapblocks not just when generating (which is cause by lots of IO wait which I supposedly cannot fix without getting a more expensive dedi with SSD) |
| 15:46 |
rubenwardy |
IhrFussel, I was talking idealistically |
| 15:46 |
rubenwardy |
also, Lua mapgens suck |
| 15:46 |
rubenwardy |
we really need to somehow have a separate Lua thread for mapgening, not sure if that's possible |
| 15:47 |
IhrFussel |
I don't use any Lua mapgens...I use zero register_on_generated() callbacks and I have no clue why my machine suddenly cannot handle the amount of mapblocks to load/save without lag anymore...it was fine a few months back...maybe too much meta? |
| 15:48 |
rubenwardy |
huh |
| 15:48 |
rubenwardy |
it's something I'd like to investigate |
| 15:48 |
rubenwardy |
but I have to prioritise uni over Minetest rn |
| 15:49 |
IhrFussel |
I already tested with inotifywait and other tools...the lags definitely happen at map.sqlite ACCESS and MODIFY ... and I thought it was one of my mods...I investigated the wrong element for a long time |
| 15:50 |
rubenwardy |
ideally sqlite should be accessed on a separate thread to the server thread, so should not block things |
| 15:50 |
rubenwardy |
well, except map loading |
| 15:50 |
rubenwardy |
however if the server thread is using I/O then you'll have problems |
| 15:51 |
IhrFussel |
iotop barely displays Server thread...it's Emerge-0 with an IO of 30-90% |
| 15:53 |
IhrFussel |
Right now Emerge-0 is not listed which means nobody moves right now...max_lag 0.6 ... now I'll move a bit |
| 15:54 |
IhrFussel |
And max_lag jumped to 1.1 ... and that's still nothing... it can get to 3 secs |
| 15:55 |
IhrFussel |
Which explains why my server with 10 players sometimes has 0.5 secs max_lag (cause nobody is extensively loading mapblocks) an other times it shows 2.5 secs with 3 players |
| 15:57 |
IhrFussel |
When only 1 player walks with normal speed Emerge-0 only has an IO of 5% which means no lag ... problem is when players use fast or drive in cars or in carts etc |
| 15:59 |
IhrFussel |
Maybe enabling more map threads could help, but I think that is only for generating not loading |
| 16:05 |
Roger9 |
Minetest seems to lag a lot more for me now that I've switched to Debian 9. I'm using the AppImage version. |
| 16:24 |
IhrFussel |
Here some values I took in the last 5 minutes https://pastebin.com/9NsZRcqS |
| 16:25 |
IhrFussel |
It's just the IO wait % and thread name but you can clearly see Emerge-0 is the culprit |
| 16:59 |
|
Megaf joined #minetest-hub |
| 17:01 |
IhrFussel |
Is Server thread IO wait basically just io.open calls from lua? |
| 17:24 |
Megaf |
sofar: There has been lots of discussion about that |
| 17:24 |
Megaf |
on IRC at lease |
| 17:24 |
Megaf |
maybe on GitHub too |
| 17:57 |
|
tenplus1 joined #minetest-hub |
| 17:57 |
tenplus1 |
hi folks |
| 17:57 |
benrob0329 |
Hi tenplus1 |
| 17:57 |
tenplus1 |
VanessaE: you have a doppleganger on Xanadu :P am assuming is isnt you |
| 17:57 |
tenplus1 |
hi benrob :) |
| 17:58 |
Krock |
wb tenplus1 |
| 17:58 |
tenplus1 |
thx Krock |
| 17:58 |
Megaf |
Hi tenplus1 |
| 17:58 |
tenplus1 |
hi Megaf |
| 17:59 |
benrob0329 |
Something I would like to note real quick (towards everyone contributing to MTG) is that, whatever is added needs to be for the goal of making it more fun. (In my honest, very strong opinion anyways) |
| 18:00 |
benrob0329 |
If it is indeed a game, then games are supposed to be fun, then the goal of MTG is to be fun. |
| 18:00 |
tenplus1 |
agree'd |
| 18:00 |
Shara |
I was looking at MTG contributions earlier, and found myself honestly wondering how I rank as #25 with so few commits there |
| 18:00 |
Shara |
It shows how few people feel able to contribute. |
| 18:00 |
Shara |
And it's certainly not because people can't write mods. |
| 18:01 |
jas_ |
i thought mtg was a base for other sub-games all this time lol |
| 18:01 |
rubenwardy |
it's because anything to do with MTG has massive bolitics attached |
| 18:01 |
benrob0329 |
If your not making a game to be fun, then why the hell are you making it? Things should not exist for the sake of existing, everything should gave purpose, and everything should add to the gane |
| 18:01 |
jas_ |
but yes i agree mtg should be fun |
| 18:01 |
Shara |
jas_: I thought that way back as well, but I was told I was wrong. |
| 18:01 |
benrob0329 |
Minetest GAME |
| 18:01 |
jas_ |
ok |
| 18:02 |
benrob0329 |
If its not supposed to be fun, then please remove Game. |
| 18:02 |
Shara |
Personally I'm just going to make my own game, because I begin to believe MTG can't be saved. |
| 18:02 |
Shara |
I'd like to be proved wrong. |
| 18:02 |
rubenwardy |
I think that Minetest Game should become a full game whilst being modular enough that you can rip things out to make new subgames |
| 18:02 |
Shara |
I've even offered to try and help with MTG more, but that doesn't seem to go anyway because no one seems to know if things are wanted or not. |
| 18:02 |
benrob0329 |
rubenwardy: exactly |
| 18:02 |
Shara |
anywhere* |
| 18:02 |
rubenwardy |
so what exactly do we need? |
| 18:03 |
Shara |
More people working on it |
| 18:03 |
rubenwardy |
what kind of game should MTG become? |
| 18:03 |
tenplus1 |
agree'd... it would be great if the default mods could be disabled and replaced with user/server's own |
| 18:03 |
rubenwardy |
Shara, working on what? |
| 18:03 |
benrob0329 |
rubenwardy: To be fun |
| 18:03 |
jas_ |
whatever it is, it's got to be funky |
| 18:03 |
rubenwardy |
urgh |
| 18:03 |
Shara |
rubenwardy: It's the devs' place to decide the direction of it. |
| 18:03 |
rubenwardy |
we need more underground variety and mobs |
| 18:03 |
rubenwardy |
Shara, the community should have input |
| 18:04 |
Shara |
I opened an issue to see if teleportation would be wanted... only paramat has given any input |
| 18:04 |
jas_ |
i think i mentioned sethome and bed's respawn |
| 18:04 |
benrob0329 |
Not to have an extensive and fleshed out story, not to have more blocks or wires or whatever the heck you can think of as filler |
| 18:04 |
Shara |
So I'm still in the position that I'd probably be wasting my time if I try and work on something |
| 18:04 |
benrob0329 |
It need purpose |
| 18:05 |
benrob0329 |
Why am I playing this thing, if there is nothing to strive for |
| 18:05 |
tenplus1 |
a purpose or story would be nice to strive towards |
| 18:05 |
Shara |
Only thing I know for sure is it should be modular. As an ideal, it should be a complete singleplayer experience, but it should stay easy enough to customise if you want to add mods |
| 18:05 |
rubenwardy |
I don't see teleportation as that big a issue personally |
| 18:06 |
Shara |
rubenwardy: me neither, but it's something I could have done, so I was willing to offer |
| 18:06 |
Shara |
But if the MTG devs don't care to reply, I don't care to code anything |
| 18:06 |
benrob0329 |
I can get diamond tools in less than a half hour, dungeons and mese just exist for no reason, and there is no big goal your journey leads you to |
| 18:06 |
Shara |
A few people suggested my handholds mod for inclusions, but again the devs can't seem to decide if they want it |
| 18:07 |
Shara |
It always seems to come down to the devs not knowing what they want |
| 18:07 |
benrob0329 |
Why am I getting bronze tools if diamond is ten minutes away? |
| 18:07 |
Shara |
So how can we contribute? |
| 18:07 |
rubenwardy |
benrob0329, progress is something we need more of, but how do we obtain that? |
| 18:07 |
Shara |
Decide what is wanted |
| 18:08 |
benrob0329 |
Step 1: find something that lacks substance |
| 18:08 |
benrob0329 |
Step 2: add substance that makes sense with the rest of it |
| 18:08 |
Shara |
LazyJ suggested adding fishing a while back. Not of huge interest to me, but it would give content and something to do. |
| 18:09 |
tenplus1 |
fishing would be fun, and a good use for string |
| 18:09 |
rubenwardy |
also: https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/projects/1 |
| 18:09 |
rubenwardy |
yeah, I'd approve fishing |
| 18:09 |
Shara |
rubenwardy: and actually, I'm just going to change my mind and say teleportation is an issue |
| 18:09 |
benrob0329 |
Giving mere a reason to exist would be good |
| 18:09 |
Shara |
You can set one single point to teleport back to in MTG, with no rationale behind it either |
| 18:09 |
benrob0329 |
*mese |
| 18:10 |
Shara |
What if a player wants an underground base and one on a mountain? |
| 18:10 |
rubenwardy |
it's not near the top of the biggest issues we have |
| 18:10 |
tenplus1 |
maybe having the odd meteor crater appear on the map would be interesting, to provide something rare |
| 18:10 |
rubenwardy |
I like that |
| 18:10 |
rubenwardy |
make Space Swords |
| 18:10 |
Shara |
rubenwardy: no, but when issues involve "it's not fun/interesting", adding content, especially that which improves playability, helps |
| 18:11 |
rubenwardy |
https://i.imgur.com/FczEV.jpg |
| 18:11 |
jas_ |
if you make it X for Player A, player B will want Y. lol! |
| 18:11 |
tenplus1 |
I really like the binoculars for zoom and map for hud map, those are good items |
| 18:11 |
benrob0329 |
Putting lore and the remains of a slimsation |
| 18:11 |
tenplus1 |
build a story on MESE and it's appearance in the world... |
| 18:12 |
benrob0329 |
Putting lore and the remains of a civilization in dungeons would be a neat idea |
| 18:12 |
benrob0329 |
I've had a backstory in my head for years now |
| 18:12 |
tenplus1 |
do tell ? |
| 18:13 |
jas_ |
minetest_game has to be generic enough so that others can use it as a base for their own games |
| 18:13 |
Shara |
rubenwardy: also why is adding bows a thing on the roadmap when mobs are not? Adding mroe weapons without mobs seems quite silly really. |
| 18:13 |
jas_ |
because if you make minetest_game in "A Real Game" then a new base stock sub-game will need to be made |
| 18:14 |
rubenwardy |
Shara, mobs are on the roadmap |
| 18:14 |
tenplus1 |
mt_game is already a raw base, other than carts/boats there's nothing really fantastic added |
| 18:14 |
Shara |
Opps, missed it :D |
| 18:14 |
rubenwardy |
mobs are required before bows |
| 18:14 |
jas_ |
it has tons of stuff |
| 18:14 |
jas_ |
minetest_game is chalk full of content |
| 18:14 |
jas_ |
chock full :) |
| 18:14 |
Shara |
No seperate base game is needed as long as things are modular |
| 18:14 |
tenplus1 |
lol, default content... things we need to simple run a world... but nothing like portals or mobs etc |
| 18:15 |
Shara |
Don't want mobs? - delete that directory, done. |
| 18:15 |
tenplus1 |
or disable the mod |
| 18:15 |
Shara |
well, you can't from the client |
| 18:15 |
tenplus1 |
the mob tab should allow you to disable ANY mod including built in |
| 18:15 |
Shara |
should, but doesn't |
| 18:16 |
tenplus1 |
fors ervers and singpleplayer |
| 18:16 |
Shara |
this roadmap is also very limited. |
| 18:16 |
Shara |
surely there is more than this desired? |
| 18:16 |
benrob0329 |
Orkkis are the aliens that used mese to power their civilization, but that civilization fell leaving the remains as dungeons. Remnants of the Mese can be found underground, and its strange properties are still being explored to this day. |
| 18:16 |
benrob0329 |
Dungeon Masters were created by the Orkkis to mine and protect the remaining strongholds they still possessed, and both roam the underground hoping one day to rebuild their once great civilization. |
| 18:16 |
tenplus1 |
e.g. Farming Redo replaces built in farming, would be nice to disable built-in properly and use what I select instead of forcing an override |
| 18:16 |
rubenwardy |
there is, Shara, but everything else is too controversial for the minimal game MTG is |
| 18:18 |
rubenwardy |
benrob0329, I like that |
| 18:18 |
benrob0329 |
Much of the lore could be implied without books or letters, and it fits with what we have alreadys from c55 |
| 18:18 |
jas_ |
fwiw, i liked the idea of building minimal up to show all content and features of the engine, and minetest_game to be a real game |
| 18:18 |
Shara |
rubenwardy: so you are basically saying there is very little to do with MTG until it's as complete sa it's going to be in terms of content and things to do |
| 18:18 |
jas_ |
but i never got to use minimal, because i couldn't "play" it like i can play stock minetest_game |
| 18:19 |
rubenwardy |
? |
| 18:19 |
jas_ |
i've been a lot of hours into stock minetest_game too. what's not enjoyable about digging thousands of nodes down? |
| 18:19 |
jas_ |
haha i kid |
| 18:19 |
Shara |
Well that's what the result is, if everything else is too controversial |
| 18:19 |
* tenplus1 |
has done just that :D |
| 18:19 |
rubenwardy |
I only added things to the roadmap if they were agreed upon |
| 18:19 |
jas_ |
but seriously i've dug a lot of nodes |
| 18:19 |
jas_ |
as i'm sure you all have, i just haven't placed so many. minetest_game, to me, is still fun |
| 18:19 |
Shara |
But if I can't get dev replies on issues because you don't view my ideas as important enough, I give up. |
| 18:20 |
benrob0329 |
jas_: we all have, thats all there is to do half the time |
| 18:20 |
rubenwardy |
Shara, the issue is I don't know what's best for teleportation |
| 18:20 |
rubenwardy |
bookmarks / travel nets are too cheap |
| 18:20 |
tenplus1 |
I'd like more ores to be added to make caves more interesting, but paramat has added underground deco so that's awesome |
| 18:20 |
Shara |
Have you read the topic? |
| 18:21 |
Shara |
THat is the exact kind of information I was trying to get from devs |
| 18:22 |
Shara |
The whole reason I wanted the possibility of concept approvals was so people can bring things up for discussion and try to get the concept approved, but if the devs don't respond it goes nowhere |
| 18:22 |
tenplus1 |
that's what this channel is suppose to be for... |
| 18:23 |
jas_ |
minetest_game as a base sub-game is also good for educational purposes |
| 18:23 |
tenplus1 |
central hub for admin, modders, devs, players to talk it out |
| 18:23 |
Fixer |
benrob0329: Dungeon Masters (aka pedobears) main purpose was to create flying mountains (the way they fired caused that) |
| 18:23 |
Shara |
Yup, but better to put issues like this on github too since more people check there, and it gives a more easily accessible record |
| 18:23 |
jas_ |
i like the idea of minetest distributing with three sub-games: minimal, minetest_game, minetest_real_game |
| 18:24 |
benrob0329 |
I dont |
| 18:24 |
benrob0329 |
More to maintain |
| 18:24 |
tenplus1 |
having a [game] tab on the menu screen to view available games, download/install and use would be awesome... we NEED 'dis |
| 18:24 |
benrob0329 |
Fixer: that doesnt make as much sense though, they dont spawn above ground |
| 18:24 |
Shara |
The devs have already said there aren't enough devs for MTG |
| 18:24 |
rubenwardy |
commented, Shara |
| 18:25 |
Shara |
Thank you |
| 18:26 |
tenplus1 |
which is why we need the tab on menu to download user based games and advantures etc |
| 18:27 |
jas_ |
i like sofar's warps mod, but don't believe it's appropriate for minetest_game. didn't the addition of the home mod cause a stir? |
| 18:27 |
jas_ |
i mean, that's why i brought up respawn in beds mod, and sethome.go/get |
| 18:27 |
jas_ |
/set |
| 18:27 |
jas_ |
those could be exploited somehow, like in a mese liquid potion vessel |
| 18:27 |
jas_ |
sethome.go(mese) |
| 18:28 |
Shara |
why'd they make a stir? |
| 18:28 |
tenplus1 |
that's why I made the sethome functions global so they could be used like that |
| 18:28 |
jas_ |
because it's cheating! |
| 18:28 |
Shara |
Well there's no rationale behind it |
| 18:28 |
Shara |
No in game reason for it to work |
| 18:28 |
jas_ |
i believe that could be... "remedied" |
| 18:28 |
tenplus1 |
it's up to modders to add the functionality... inv+ and home tab uses it |
| 18:28 |
jas_ |
ha ha ha |
| 18:29 |
tenplus1 |
the /home and /sethome commands use them :D |
| 18:29 |
jas_ |
and the buttons on dcbl craft grid |
| 18:29 |
Shara |
Most games with large maps have some kind of teleportation or fast travel options |
| 18:30 |
Shara |
mostly because walking long distances over and over again after you did that the first time gets boring |
| 18:30 |
jas_ |
so i made these stats using attributes, then found some like hp_max i wanted in a table for some reason, then looked at it and realized i'm storing data two ways *scratches head* |
| 18:30 |
jas_ |
not all singleplayer maps get all that big, and not all players play online. |
| 18:32 |
jas_ |
what i think would be most helpful, is a book mark system |
| 18:32 |
jas_ |
i _loathe_ pressing f5 |
| 18:32 |
tenplus1 |
ehehe |
| 18:32 |
tenplus1 |
like the map tags we have in certain mods |
| 18:32 |
tenplus1 |
brb |
| 18:32 |
jas_ |
if there was a way a player could "record" his actions in a "journal" say |
| 18:32 |
|
paramat joined #minetest-hub |
| 18:33 |
jas_ |
(coordinates, death places, "teleporation" locations) |
| 18:33 |
rubenwardy |
reopened https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/853 -- Hunger |
| 18:33 |
rubenwardy |
paramat, you'll want to read the history |
| 18:33 |
benrob0329 |
What would be nice is if carts weren't laggy, and if that worked when out of range (railnet) |
| 18:33 |
rubenwardy |
s/history/logs/g |
| 18:33 |
jas_ |
don't they work better now? |
| 18:33 |
rubenwardy |
!mod railnet |
| 18:33 |
ShadowBot |
rubenwardy: <lucky [mod] railnet site:forum.minetest.net> |
| 18:33 |
jas_ |
the carts, i mean |
| 18:33 |
Megaf |
jas_: what doest warp mod do? |
| 18:33 |
jas_ |
it warps |
| 18:34 |
rubenwardy |
!mod warp potions |
| 18:34 |
ShadowBot |
rubenwardy: <lucky [mod] warp potions site:forum.minetest.net> |
| 18:34 |
jas_ |
carts work better now i thought. perhaps due to loading map in view, and other changes? anyway |
| 18:34 |
rubenwardy |
huh |
| 18:34 |
rubenwardy |
!mod asnasa |
| 18:34 |
ShadowBot |
rubenwardy: <lucky [mod] asnasa site:forum.minetest.net> |
| 18:34 |
jas_ |
warps mod by sofar is a mesh node |
| 18:34 |
rubenwardy |
ShadowBot, go home, you're drunk |
| 18:34 |
jas_ |
a pretty one, he made, that you punch and have to stand still for five seconds |
| 18:34 |
jas_ |
after which it teleports you to a predefined location |
| 18:35 |
rubenwardy |
sfan5, please may we have MinetestBot here and kick ShadowBot? |
| 18:35 |
rubenwardy |
MTB is infinitely more helpful |
| 18:35 |
* benrob0329 |
watches Minetest Game |
| 18:35 |
sfan5 |
heh |
| 18:35 |
Shara |
This was my attempt at a teleport mod: https://github.com/Ezhh/warp_potions |
| 18:35 |
jas_ |
i've made modifications here: https://github.com/jastevenson303/warps/tree/dcbl and his is https://github.com/minetest-mods/warps |
| 18:35 |
rubenwardy |
also, afk |
| 18:35 |
Shara |
Wanted to make sure it had per use costs and couldn't be abused on a survival server |
| 18:36 |
benrob0329 |
Playing Minecraft taught me something, mods need to be made because the game is so good, not because the game is so bad. |
| 18:36 |
benrob0329 |
The day we accomplish that, we have made a good game. |
| 18:37 |
jas_ |
very nice shara |
| 18:37 |
jas_ |
i've always really appreciated the vessels mod |
| 18:38 |
Shara |
I had a lot of problems on my server due to other teleport mods I tried. |
| 18:38 |
jas_ |
i've used it somewhat, but am eager to see it used |
| 18:38 |
jas_ |
i'd say adapt it to match the vessels mod, and try to merge it _there_ |
| 18:38 |
jas_ |
minetest_game/mods/vessels |
| 18:38 |
Shara |
For example, players using teleports to get through the walls of houses and kill the players inside |
| 18:38 |
jas_ |
perhaps put the functionality into sethome, or default, or a new namespace. |
| 18:38 |
Shara |
Players going straight to really low depths for the best mining |
| 18:38 |
jas_ |
i'd like to see sethome renamed and merged with beds |
| 18:38 |
jas_ |
(the respawn function of beds) |
| 18:39 |
Shara |
Players not needing to explore since they could just go anywhere |
| 18:39 |
Shara |
And so on |
| 18:39 |
jas_ |
well i'm just brainstorming |
| 18:39 |
jas_ |
i go down for the sake of it, and because caverealms |
| 18:39 |
Shara |
Well, it's why I opened that issue for MTG. I doubt warp_potions would be suitable as is, and maybe potions aren't even wanted, but I think it covers most of the basic requirements for use |
| 18:39 |
jas_ |
they're really massive in v7, i can't tell or remember if they're bigger than their v6 counterparts |
| 18:40 |
Shara |
Depends which version of caverealms you use |
| 18:40 |
jas_ |
you did the -lite fork with z... |
| 18:40 |
jas_ |
zeno |
| 18:40 |
Shara |
Yup |
| 18:40 |
jas_ |
iirc? |
| 18:40 |
Shara |
https://github.com/Ezhh/caverealms_lite |
| 18:40 |
jas_ |
yes, i'm using facedeer's subterrane mod with his caverealm fork |
| 18:40 |
jas_ |
i found that first, and some days after saw yours and his |
| 18:40 |
jas_ |
i'd already generated, and didn't want to reset :) |
| 18:40 |
Shara |
-lite uses natural mapgen instead of its own mapgen, and adds a bunch of new content too |
| 18:41 |
jas_ |
i might pick at it, i mean take a look at it some time |
| 18:41 |
tenplus1 |
:P lite is faster generating |
| 18:41 |
jas_ |
i'm sure |
| 18:41 |
Shara |
Feel free, and PR or issues please if you find any problems :P) |
| 18:41 |
Shara |
:P* |
| 18:41 |
jas_ |
thank you, i have been meaning to check it out |
| 18:41 |
jas_ |
that's one of the few mods i didn't touch |
| 18:41 |
Shara |
-lite also has compatibility with ethereal worked in |
| 18:42 |
jas_ |
i'm using v7, because it's the default, and i keep seeing paramat refer to it as the "old" mapgen haha |
| 18:42 |
jas_ |
and i'm like, dang it was just made default |
| 18:42 |
jas_ |
i tried valleys before with fun_caves, that's a nice mapgen. |
| 18:42 |
Shara |
So when you run both mods, you get the ethereal mushroom textures on the underground mushrooms (they are much nicer) and improvements to ethereal's fishing system and so on |
| 18:43 |
tenplus1 |
ooh, metal rod with glowy worm :) me likey... |
| 18:43 |
Shara |
I like valleys a lot (CRL was actually made with valleys as the intended mapgen) |
| 18:43 |
Shara |
But then they added the giant caves to other mapgens as well |
| 18:44 |
Shara |
So I think it works quite well for most mapgens now |
| 18:46 |
jas_ |
i haven't tried that new one, i can't remember its name. carp something haha |
| 18:46 |
jas_ |
but i really like the default stuff |
| 18:46 |
jas_ |
i always sort of regret modding |
| 18:46 |
benrob0329 |
Perhaps the Dungeon Masters started a secret society against the old Orkki masters, building temples deep underground with hidden vats of knowledge. |
| 18:46 |
Shara |
carpathian? |
| 18:47 |
tenplus1 |
underground dungeons/fortress'/temples would be great |
| 18:47 |
Shara |
Better dungeons would be nice |
| 18:47 |
benrob0329 |
tenplus1: we dont have a purpose for the ones we do have |
| 18:47 |
Shara |
That's something I would like in the game I'm thinking of making |
| 18:47 |
CWz |
So a nazi joined my server |
| 18:48 |
Shara |
I want dungeons with content |
| 18:48 |
benrob0329 |
Some small loot is all we get right now I think |
| 18:48 |
tenplus1 |
yeah, loot chests and crystal lanterns etc |
| 18:48 |
benrob0329 |
I want dungeons that tell a story |
| 18:48 |
jas_ |
benrob0329: i like your stories so far, put 'em on a default:sign :D |
| 18:48 |
tenplus1 |
scratches down the wall and blood spatter...... "The Saw" |
| 18:48 |
jas_ |
i'd chuckle if i found that in a dungeon |
| 18:48 |
Shara |
I'm indifferent to building stories into MTG itself |
| 18:49 |
Shara |
Kind of boring if every server has the same story? |
| 18:49 |
jas_ |
and of course there'd be no orkki (oerkki?) or dungeon master mobs, just the sign |
| 18:49 |
benrob0329 |
Shara: servers hardly have the same game |
| 18:49 |
jas_ |
well let's say it's based on a text file |
| 18:49 |
jas_ |
easily translatable, and you could change the defaults of course |
| 18:49 |
jas_ |
but yeah, i like the stories |
| 18:50 |
jas_ |
reminds me of the really long backstories included with doom wads for some reason |
| 18:50 |
benrob0329 |
And if the story is implied, and only lore based, that makes it easy to add extra layers per server |
| 18:50 |
tenplus1 |
was gonna change ethereal so it takes over the floatlands biome 1000 high in the sky and have a portal to get there |
| 18:50 |
benrob0329 |
No text means no translation :-) |
| 18:50 |
Shara |
tenplus1: do it! |
| 18:51 |
tenplus1 |
ehehe... that way we could keep original biomes and just have ethereal in the sky |
| 18:51 |
benrob0329 |
I think dungeons should be rarer though |
| 18:51 |
benrob0329 |
Finding them should be exciting, with only a few per world |
| 18:52 |
Shara |
tenplus1: noooo... original biomes = so boring |
| 18:52 |
benrob0329 |
Each telling more story the last |
| 18:52 |
benrob0329 |
No writing, only atmosphere and ruins. |
| 18:53 |
Shara |
just feels like something better left for seperate mods to me |
| 18:53 |
Roger9 |
'Ello. |
| 18:53 |
tenplus1 |
hi roger |
| 18:53 |
benrob0329 |
Shara: that's the problem |
| 18:53 |
Shara |
I'm not against a world having it's own lore (far from it), but not sure if MTG is the place |
| 18:53 |
Shara |
It's not very special if it's the same everywhere |
| 18:53 |
benrob0329 |
Everyone says its better for mods to deal with basic things of a game |
| 18:54 |
benrob0329 |
MODS DON'T FIX THE GAME |
| 18:54 |
Shara |
No, a game should deal with basic things of a game, but storyline and plot elements are not basic things |
| 18:54 |
benrob0329 |
No, they are fundamental things. |
| 18:54 |
Shara |
No, they really are not. They are a layer on the very top of everything else that could be dropped into multiple different base games |
| 18:54 |
benrob0329 |
They drive the game (and player) foreword |
| 18:55 |
benrob0329 |
Shara: you clearly haven't played many good story driven games, because the story is not just dropped in |
| 18:55 |
benrob0329 |
No offence, but story isnt just dropped in |
| 18:56 |
Shara |
Considering I was a developer on a game specifically work on this part of that game... |
| 18:56 |
Shara |
MTG is not going to be a story based game |
| 18:56 |
tenplus1 |
MESE story line... |
| 18:56 |
benrob0329 |
"Lets leave the reason anything exists to mods" |
| 18:57 |
Shara |
A story would fit on top of the game at best instead of being the core purpose of it |
| 18:57 |
Shara |
Lol ten |
| 18:57 |
benrob0329 |
Seems legit |
| 18:57 |
Shara |
"Let's insult the reasoning of people who disagree with us" |
| 18:57 |
Shara |
"And assume they have no experience at all" |
| 18:58 |
tenplus1 |
how about... "humans destroyed the earth and themselves and aliens took pity on them and healed the lands and plopped what humans/players it could back so they could begin anew"... would explain the mese deposits they used to heal the earth as mystical crystal |
| 18:58 |
benrob0329 |
"Lets repeat the exact problem nothing gets added to MTG" |
| 18:58 |
Shara |
Or we could decide mese is a waste product that initially appears benificial but is in fact slowly warping the land and making it more dangerous. |
| 18:59 |
benrob0329 |
s/problem/reason |
| 18:59 |
tenplus1 |
ooh, nice spin shara |
| 18:59 |
Shara |
benrob0329: discuss ideas, but don't insult my knowledge. |
| 19:00 |
benrob0329 |
Sorry, but its infuriating to hear "leave that to mods" |
| 19:00 |
Shara |
I am not automatically wrong just because I don't agree with you. But you plunged in with the all caps and assumptions about what I know. |
| 19:00 |
Shara |
Sorry. I most regards I agree with that frustration, but you can't go too far the other way and use it to add anything and everything. |
| 19:01 |
Shara |
In* |
| 19:01 |
benrob0329 |
Clearly not, but story (even if not the main focus of the game) is not secondary to customizability |
| 19:02 |
IhrFussel |
server_unload_unused_data_timeout << if I set this value high wouldn't that mean the server accesses the DB less and takes mapblocks from RAM if already loaded? |
| 19:02 |
benrob0329 |
Arguing that something should be removed, when it wouldn't hurt servers, and when that thing could be removed, is silly. |
| 19:02 |
Shara |
benrob0329: I even have a storyline based game server I have been working on for some time. You don't need to include the plotline in MTG itself. |
| 19:02 |
benrob0329 |
Shara: then why does anything exist in MTG, and why play vanilla? |
| 19:02 |
Shara |
In fact, including it like that could be pretty damaging and could limit what you can do with it. |
| 19:03 |
Shara |
Example: relying on players to find dungeons in some specific order |
| 19:03 |
benrob0329 |
No! Your thinking about it all wrong |
| 19:03 |
Shara |
I'll leave you to submit a PR then. |
| 19:03 |
Shara |
Since I obviously don't know anything. |
| 19:03 |
benrob0329 |
You make the story sit in the background, it doesnt limit the player it makes exploring more exciting |
| 19:03 |
benrob0329 |
I didn't say that |
| 19:04 |
Shara |
Mak ea PR then |
| 19:04 |
Shara |
Make* |
| 19:04 |
benrob0329 |
Your thinking that I want MTG to be a story driven game (which might not be hard to think based kn my earlier comments, which I apologize for) |
| 19:04 |
Shara |
I am not a dev and have no say after all. |
| 19:05 |
benrob0329 |
Which is not what I'm saying, I'm saying that a lore can be added in game, which makes the game more fun and give purpose to what exists |
| 19:06 |
benrob0329 |
Its still a sandbox, the player is still free to do whatever they want, and servers can still add or remove things from it |
| 19:06 |
Shara |
Make a PR then? |
| 19:06 |
Shara |
Or open an issue. |
| 19:06 |
* tenplus1 |
votes for the story to create an ice farm to open an ice cream shop and be the best in the business |
| 19:06 |
benrob0329 |
Make a lot of PRs, then |
| 19:06 |
paramat |
let me read logs and catch up =) |
| 19:06 |
tenplus1 |
hi paramat |
| 19:07 |
Shara |
benrob0329: All caps, assumptions, and now told I'm thinking about it wrong. All I said was that I'm indifferent to it, and in my opinion it should be a seperate mod. I don't think I deserved that reaction from you, and don't really want you to try to convince me. |
| 19:08 |
Shara |
It's the devs you need to convince anyway. |
| 19:09 |
CWz |
VanessaE, is you around? |
| 19:09 |
benrob0329 |
Shara: Sorry, I was rash with the insults. I meant that you had the wrong idea about what I was saying, but it could have been worded better. |
| 19:10 |
tenplus1 |
hi CWz |
| 19:10 |
Shara |
I'm all for using games as a medium for storytelling. The potential for that is a big part of why I've been hanging around MT this long. |
| 19:11 |
Shara |
I just honestly do not feel that MTG is the place for it. |
| 19:11 |
Shara |
If new official games can be added, it would be good if they could have some lore and worldbuilding to them |
| 19:12 |
benrob0329 |
And I honestly do not feel that purpose can be given to the vanilla game without some kind of backstory as to why things exist. |
| 19:12 |
Shara |
I don't mind if you disagree with me. I just feel MTG needs to remain a bit more general than that and should focus on progression through gameplay instead |
| 19:13 |
benrob0329 |
That is just my opinion, strong as it may be I need to work on presenting it without getting frustrated at people. |
| 19:13 |
Shara |
Because adding in some kind of plotline to it now would either be too big a shift, or would actually be really weak. Since the game hasn't been built up with such a thing in mind, you'd basically need to remake it so that any of this mattered. |
| 19:14 |
Shara |
And then you are talking about ahuge undertaking that may as well be a new game anyway. |
| 19:14 |
jas_ |
i like the idea of random signs with tips and lore and stuff |
| 19:14 |
jas_ |
and books in bookshelves or the loot chests in dungeons. |
| 19:14 |
benrob0329 |
Shara: Not necessarily, but I do see your point |
| 19:15 |
Shara |
It's like... if you want to add lore and story, do it properly |
| 19:15 |
benrob0329 |
jas_: text needs translation |
| 19:15 |
paramat |
(.. this will take a while) indeed CSM 'flavour' restrictions will only be enforceable in 0.5.0 |
| 19:15 |
tenplus1 |
a lone sign in an underground dungeon with "The cake is a lie!" written on it :D |
| 19:15 |
Shara |
tenplus1: pretty sure RC has a couple of them hidden away :D |
| 19:15 |
tenplus1 |
eheheh |
| 19:16 |
jas_ |
benrob0329: there's localization helpers and translation stuff anyway |
| 19:17 |
benrob0329 |
But why read what can be shown? :-) |
| 19:18 |
jas_ |
i been meaning to give a book generated based on a text file in the mod dir or worldir. now i can't help but think about books and signs. i have these intercomm thingies that can save a note in its metadata even when dug, those could come with some plot twists |
| 19:18 |
jas_ |
can't wait for falling nodes with metadata pr |
| 19:18 |
jas_ |
and *assumes kneeling position* the bindable mouse button PR |
| 19:18 |
Shara |
The problem with random encounters (be they mobs acting a certain way or books found in dungeons, or signs on the wall with clues)... is that they get pretty repetative really quickly. |
| 19:19 |
jas_ |
more like a challenge |
| 19:19 |
jas_ |
what about colorization? |
| 19:20 |
jas_ |
i'm only half joking. sometimes less is more, and even finding a book with a note on it would be pretty fun. now i miss the nyancat but am glad it's gone overall |
| 19:20 |
Shara |
But imagine you find that same book in five different dungeons over the space of a week? |
| 19:20 |
jas_ |
i'd add it back in to dcbl if it weren't for that pb&j mod |
| 19:20 |
jas_ |
imagine the book's color corresponds to the dungeons biome! |
| 19:20 |
benrob0329 |
Shara: thus my suggestion to make dungeons rarer :-) |
| 19:20 |
jas_ |
welcome to... desert stone biome |
| 19:21 |
Shara |
jas_: I'm actually working on something with different colour coded biomes at the moment |
| 19:21 |
benrob0329 |
And making decorations content aware might be a good idea |
| 19:21 |
Shara |
Mostly just as a test to make sure I understand exactly how they work before moving on to a serious game |
| 19:21 |
benrob0329 |
E.g. only spawn once, or bear these coords, etc |
| 19:21 |
benrob0329 |
*near |
| 19:22 |
Shara |
what if the player misses it? |
| 19:23 |
Shara |
They could be three nodes to the left of a dungeon, and the book spawns there, but they never find out |
| 19:23 |
Shara |
So now they missed a vital clue? |
| 19:23 |
jas_ |
game over man |
| 19:23 |
jas_ |
reset |
| 19:23 |
benrob0329 |
Shara: the book isnt needed, just helpful/neat to have |
| 19:24 |
benrob0329 |
That is, if its a book that's spawned |
| 19:24 |
Shara |
But when all content is fine to miss it all feels a bit pointless anyway |
| 19:24 |
jas_ |
it helps against the final boss tho |
| 19:24 |
benrob0329 |
The thing with lore is that its not needed, its just there to explain |
| 19:24 |
Shara |
(I'm just pikcing holes so you see how much there is to consider) |
| 19:24 |
paramat |
semems to be some misunderstanding about CSM, i don't like it, but what sfan5 writes is correct |
| 19:24 |
Shara |
paramat: don't think anyone here likes it :( |
| 19:24 |
tenplus1 |
??? |
| 19:24 |
jas_ |
i actually agree with shara, lore would be for minetest_game_extended (i'm thinking of the children) |
| 19:24 |
jas_ |
i like it |
| 19:25 |
jas_ |
(csm) |
| 19:25 |
Shara |
If you made a good lore related mod, it shoud be able to drop into most subgames with minimal adjustment needed |
| 19:25 |
jas_ |
or a setting |
| 19:25 |
* jas_ |
runs away |
| 19:25 |
Shara |
jas_: CSM is horrible and should never have been added as it is |
| 19:25 |
benrob0329 |
Shara: the fact that most subgames are that similar to MTG hurts |
| 19:25 |
Shara |
You should now be fed to a dungeon master for saying otherwise |
| 19:25 |
tenplus1 |
ehehe |
| 19:25 |
Shara |
And should be sentenced to miss all the hidden lorebooks forever! |
| 19:26 |
Shara |
benrob0329: yea, mine won't be |
| 19:26 |
Raven262 |
He *should* be fed to a dungeon master. |
| 19:26 |
paramat |
"Yet the devs decide it's okay to accept the risks" i didn't =) i made a big fuss about CSM |
| 19:26 |
benrob0329 |
I suppose the point of it would be that its there if you want to find it, if you want answers, but you can safely ignore it if you want |
| 19:26 |
Shara |
Wish you'd been listened to. |
| 19:27 |
tenplus1 |
server should be in control of WHAT client-side runs, not the player |
| 19:27 |
benrob0329 |
And it'd make dungeons more interesting, perhaps guide some features of the game |
| 19:27 |
paramat |
without server-provided CSMods i think CSM isn't worth it, client-provided CSM is boring and causes problems |
| 19:28 |
jas_ |
i'd like to clarify that i like csm in 0.5.0-dev, i kinda missed it in 0.4.16. |
| 19:28 |
Shara |
paramat: Yes! |
| 19:29 |
jas_ |
and also yes, i was bummed to learn i couldn't feed the client the mod to run on their side |
| 19:29 |
Shara |
jas_: I get that some players will like it a lot, but it just doesn't seem worth the problems as it is. |
| 19:30 |
jas_ |
i don't want the player to realize it's there, that was my initial thought. it would be something the server sent to the client to alleviate burdon |
| 19:30 |
jas_ |
like constantly tracking whether player moved, for afk kick timer eg |
| 19:30 |
jas_ |
but transparent to the client end user |
| 19:30 |
tenplus1 |
I coudl have made ambience lite CSM that was passed to client through server to handle local sounds... |
| 19:31 |
Shara |
That's what I thought the point was originally as well |
| 19:31 |
red-001 |
tbh I didn't expect csm to go this long without server mod sending |
| 19:31 |
Shara |
Instead we get chest inspector, and ore detector, and attempts for clients to get free items. |
| 19:31 |
jas_ |
best laid plans |
| 19:32 |
tenplus1 |
hi red |
| 19:32 |
Shara |
And coloured text, and CSM generated spam and so on... |
| 19:32 |
Shara |
Hi red-001 |
| 19:32 |
paramat |
so i'm saying, either add server-provided CSMods or remove CSM. server-provided was the primary feature and the one stated in MT's TODO |
| 19:32 |
jas_ |
would a github issue documenting specific abuses be helpful? |
| 19:33 |
red-001 |
it's trivial to implement and it seems the public opinion is in favour of it |
| 19:33 |
jas_ |
the ticket would refer only to actual cases like you mention above |
| 19:33 |
Shara |
jas_: The worry is always what potential ways to abuse it did we not learn about yet |
| 19:33 |
jas_ |
bah |
| 19:33 |
Shara |
And there is absolutely no reliable way for the server to block it |
| 19:34 |
IhrFussel |
Can anybody confirm this theory? "server_unload_unused_data_timeout with high value means the server accesses the DB less and takes mapblocks from RAM if already loaded?" |
| 19:34 |
jas_ |
i think you have it backwards, IhrFussel |
| 19:34 |
tenplus1 |
fussel, yes, but uses a ton of memory for each player |
| 19:34 |
red-001 |
I reason it wasn't added at beginning was to give people time to try and find exploits that would allow exploiting the client so they can be fixed |
| 19:34 |
red-001 |
however it doesn't seem to be what happened |
| 19:35 |
jas_ |
allow server to reject clients who use clientmods not sent by server? or no |
| 19:35 |
IhrFussel |
jas_, with low value the server reads too many recent mapblocks from the DB...so setting it high should at least prevent reduntant loading of recently visited mapblocks |
| 19:36 |
IhrFussel |
redundant* |
| 19:36 |
jas_ |
i dunno, setting the timeout high would allow more memory usage over time? i'm absolutely just guessing. |
| 19:36 |
Shara |
jas_: client doesn't have to admit to what it's doing though |
| 19:36 |
Shara |
This is why it's now so difficult to fix |
| 19:36 |
jas_ |
server can say, use this bytecode and only this and anything else is a kick? is that feasable? |
| 19:37 |
Shara |
Not really. Devs would never agree to that kind of approach. |
| 19:37 |
IhrFussel |
Yes I don't care about RAM usage..MT can take all my 4 GB (it only uses max 1 right now) ... I try to do everything to reduce DB accesses since those cause my lags...it's just those |
| 19:37 |
sfan5 |
aside from being insecure, it's not feasible as you can't verify what the client says it's using |
| 19:37 |
Shara |
(and I'd agree with them not agreeing) |
| 19:38 |
sfan5 |
unless you put some (even if simple) DRM into the bytecode, which provokes the usual responses regarding FOSS |
| 19:38 |
Shara |
Basically, MT let something out of the bag which now has no good solution as it stands |
| 19:38 |
red-001 |
better remove all of csm then use bytecode, I wouldn't want minetest be be know as that game where you can get a virus by joining a server |
| 19:38 |
Fixer |
nah, mt has hackers anyway, even without csm |
| 19:39 |
tenplus1 |
that's why I was so eager for 0.5.0 update, it forces servers to update and cuts out many fake games... but not for all |
| 19:39 |
Fixer |
instead start working on noclip and fly prevention |
| 19:39 |
Shara |
CSM has drastically dropped the entry level into cheating |
| 19:39 |
red-001 |
are the csm limits not working as intended? |
| 19:39 |
Shara |
red-001: client side only |
| 19:40 |
Shara |
Server still has no real control at all |
| 19:40 |
red-001 |
so? All this was client side to start with |
| 19:40 |
Shara |
But entry level for cheating has been permanently lowered by this |
| 19:40 |
Shara |
In the past you would have to write your own code... now the code for CSM gets dumped on the forum for anyone to take, and they disable one check in their client? |
| 19:40 |
jas_ |
minetest, now with supercharged chat spam and colors. if only there was blinking text! |
| 19:41 |
Shara |
Puts all this at the same level as fly/noclip. |
| 19:41 |
tenplus1 |
lol jas, dont give anyone ideas |
| 19:41 |
IhrFussel |
red-001, we server owners were "fooled" in a way: We thought you meant by restriction that we have the TOTAL control over which client accesses what data from the server |
| 19:41 |
Shara |
So basically, server owners asked for more control of such problems, and now have even more worries instead :) |
| 19:41 |
red-001 |
IhrFussel, fair point |
| 19:41 |
* tenplus1 |
just wants a disable switch for csm |
| 19:41 |
Shara |
Yup, I was under the impression the flavours would be server side |
| 19:41 |
benrob0329 |
CSM should be completely server dictates imo |
| 19:42 |
tenplus1 |
+1 |
| 19:42 |
benrob0329 |
*dictated |
| 19:42 |
Shara |
But apparently it can't be done, so we're now stuck with this dispite the devs having admitted the issue |
| 19:42 |
red-001 |
changing that is easy, getting people to agree on a single solution is hard |
| 19:42 |
benrob0329 |
If the server is yourself, then you can install any csm you want. |
| 19:42 |
Shara |
How can it be fixed then? |
| 19:42 |
jas_ |
so a server can not detect whether a playing is using malicious code on their end, any more than whether they're flying? i just can't believe it! |
| 19:43 |
IhrFussel |
I'm pretty sure that almost every serious server owner would agree with server-side restrictions |
| 19:43 |
benrob0329 |
0.5.0 is breaking, fix it there |
| 19:43 |
Shara |
I want the ability to tur off CSM for everyone, not just for players who don't happen to compile their own clients |
| 19:43 |
Shara |
turn* |
| 19:43 |
jas_ |
but it's in their client, i take it? |
| 19:43 |
IhrFussel |
It's mainly the core devs who disagree cause "DRM" |
| 19:43 |
jas_ |
so you'd have to... configure their client? maybe you can set their .conf values :D |
| 19:43 |
jas_ |
i wouldn't want a server to mess with mah keys |
| 19:44 |
Shara |
Given CSM was specifically made for servers (it doesn't have any singleplayer role), the fact that it's the server owners who are unhappy should say a lot |
| 19:44 |
benrob0329 |
I wouldn't mind some settings being settable by the server |
| 19:45 |
red-001 |
Shara, that's possible as long as you figure out how to deal with bultin |
| 19:45 |
benrob0329 |
Like node outline visibility (a server might not want selection boxes visible( |
| 19:45 |
IhrFussel |
You could add a message to the connecting client "warning" him that certain functions are disabled on that server |
| 19:45 |
red-001 |
and the players haven't read the lua c api docs |
| 19:46 |
Shara |
red-001: as long as 'I' figure it out? |
| 19:46 |
red-001 |
sorry I didn't mean that |
| 19:46 |
red-001 |
as long as someone figures it out |
| 19:47 |
red-001 |
since I'm at a lose at how to deal with bultin |
| 19:47 |
red-001 |
loading it from the server would be a compatibility nightmare |
| 19:47 |
benrob0329 |
English: where you (singular) and you (plural) are the same word. |
| 19:47 |
red-001 |
loading it from the client would make the change pointless |
| 19:47 |
sfan5 |
what's the problem with builtin? |
| 19:48 |
benrob0329 |
Its easily changed client side code |
| 19:48 |
benrob0329 |
Afaik |
| 19:48 |
|
Aerozoic joined #minetest-hub |
| 19:48 |
red-001 |
or I guess csm could be rewritten to not need builtin |
| 19:48 |
tenplus1 |
hi Aerozoic |
| 19:48 |
sfan5 |
oh that |
| 19:48 |
Aerozoic |
wazup peeps |
| 19:49 |
sfan5 |
you can just compile the sha256 of builtin into the binary and it would check it |
| 19:49 |
sfan5 |
since if you can compile the binary you can just disable the flavor checks anyway |
| 19:49 |
red-001 |
^ |
| 19:49 |
red-001 |
meaning we are back to the start of all this |
| 19:49 |
sfan5 |
no |
| 19:49 |
sfan5 |
you have solved the problem of people editing csm builtin to get around the server saying "don't load any csm mods" |
| 19:50 |
red-001 |
you add checks and they only affect people that don't compile their own clients |
| 19:50 |
benrob0329 |
Again, I feel like csm should only be given to the client by the server |
| 19:51 |
Shara |
I don't mind players setting things like which fonts they see and so on... but then most of the things I can think of like that should be client settings anyway really |
| 19:51 |
sfan5 |
red-001: compiling your own client is hard on: windows, mac os, android, iOS |
| 19:51 |
sfan5 |
that covers enough of the playerbase |
| 19:52 |
IhrFussel |
If a server has too many CSMs the client will need to download a bunch of data on each connection since I don't think it would make sense to cache CSMs sent by the server |
| 19:52 |
Shara |
sfan5: I've compiled two different MT versions on Windows so far, so it can't be 'that' hard to anyone who has a clue :) |
| 19:52 |
red-001 |
I don't see a reason for not caching csm |
| 19:53 |
tenplus1 |
when crafting is there a way to obtain a full stack of items instead of clicking like a madman |
| 19:53 |
sfan5 |
Shara: the average minetest player is a child with a mobile phone |
| 19:53 |
sfan5 |
not someone experience with programming |
| 19:53 |
IhrFussel |
It would add another step (checking cached CSM version/hasg against server version/hash) |
| 19:53 |
sfan5 |
+d |
| 19:53 |
Shara |
I've never really been worried about the app users, since I very much doubt they are the ones enabling noclip for themselves either |
| 19:53 |
red-001 |
Shara, as I see it you are asking for an impossible to solve issue to be solved completely, this can only really be mitigated, unless you have full control over what code the users machine executes |
| 19:53 |
Shara |
But I've had enough of them to deal with |
| 19:54 |
sfan5 |
ok, then: the average non-mobile minetest player is a child on their parents computer |
| 19:54 |
Shara |
red-001: odd, I thought I am the one who acknowledged it can't be solved |
| 19:54 |
sfan5 |
still not someone experienced with programming |
| 19:54 |
benrob0329 |
tenplus1: spam middle mouse click |
| 19:54 |
tenplus1 |
whassat do ben? |
| 19:54 |
benrob0329 |
Grabs 10 at a time |
| 19:54 |
red-001 |
even if you remove csm someone could program thier own version of it or revent the commit |
| 19:54 |
tenplus1 |
thanks dude |
| 19:55 |
benrob0329 |
red-001: someone could also edit the c++ |
| 19:55 |
Aerozoic |
Anybody know if there's an easy way to add a priv to all existing accounts? |
| 19:55 |
Shara |
CSM removed completely would still be more of a barrier than the current situation |
| 19:55 |
benrob0329 |
At that point your talking about someone who knows what their doing |
| 19:56 |
IhrFussel |
If we just add a way to tell the client "no CSMs" for now we would be back to "need to edit c++ to cheat" at least |
| 19:56 |
sfan5 |
IhrFussel: flavor limits are exactly that |
| 19:56 |
Shara |
FUssel, it will be that, but it means editing needed is very minor |
| 19:56 |
benrob0329 |
CSM that is server-only makes sense imo |
| 19:56 |
sfan5 |
^ i wish i could pin msgs on irc |
| 19:56 |
sfan5 |
because that's just gold |
| 19:56 |
Shara |
It's at "switching fly on" level instead of "I now need to code all this stuff myself" level |
| 19:57 |
Shara |
benrob0329: read some more :) |
| 19:57 |
sfan5 |
Shara: since csm can't be removed without any trace the barrier would still be "git revert <some commit>" |
| 19:57 |
sfan5 |
which isn't a lot more than "edit this line" |
| 19:57 |
IhrFussel |
I thought flavors are client-side? So you mean the server tells the client what to do and the client either follows those rules or (if modified) doesn't? |
| 19:57 |
Shara |
sfan5: I know. |
| 19:57 |
benrob0329 |
sfan5: then build, fix incompatibilities, etc |
| 19:57 |
red-001 |
wipe the commit history by sqaushing it into one commit called "make changes" |
| 19:57 |
sfan5 |
^ |
| 19:58 |
benrob0329 |
^ |
| 19:58 |
sfan5 |
IhrFussel: yes, that's how every other feature works too |
| 19:58 |
Shara |
sfan5: what I said above was trying to explain to Fussel, not making any claim it would fix it |
| 19:58 |
sfan5 |
every other = e.g. the fly/noclip code |
| 19:59 |
IhrFussel |
sfan5, flavors don't exist in 0.4.16 AFAIK so until they switch to 0.5.0 they are out of luck? Or will flavors be backported? |
| 19:59 |
Shara |
I'm obviously pretty unimpressed with this, and I think it's stupid that CSM was ever added since it does nothing at all helpful, but I get that now we're stuck with this mess |
| 19:59 |
benrob0329 |
Shara: I know that flavors are becoming a thing, but they have problems too |
| 19:59 |
sfan5 |
correct, no they won't backported |
| 19:59 |
Shara |
benrob0329: nope, the whole issue is that flavours are not that much help |
| 19:59 |
Aerozoic |
wuts a flavor? |
| 20:00 |
IhrFussel |
Aerozoic, CSM restrictions |
| 20:00 |
benrob0329 |
Can 0.4 just be abondoned, everyone move to 0.5 with fixed csm |
| 20:00 |
Shara |
It's not fixed >.> |
| 20:00 |
paramat |
phew caught up =) |
| 20:00 |
IhrFussel |
But you do know that 90%+ of the server list right now don't use 0.5.0 and likely won't when it releases either? It will take a looong time until major servers switch |
| 20:00 |
Shara |
paramat: don't tell us and ruhn away while you still can :D |
| 20:01 |
benrob0329 |
Or, Server Provided Client Side Scripts |
| 20:02 |
benrob0329 |
#MakeCsmGreatInTheFirstPlace |
| 20:02 |
tenplus1 |
lolol |
| 20:02 |
IhrFussel |
o you have any clue how many active players on my server use iOS? I would lose ALL of them if I switch to 0.5.0 ... and I'm sure there are other servers with very important iOS players |
| 20:02 |
IhrFussel |
Do* |
| 20:02 |
paramat |
essentially, devs need to commit to adding server-provided CSM, otherwise we're better off removing CSM. so who's planning to work on it? red-001 |
| 20:03 |
tenplus1 |
I vote to remove it |
| 20:03 |
benrob0329 |
IhrFussel: iOS forks are illegal |
| 20:03 |
Shara |
I'd like it gone, though I recognise fully that it does little to adress the underlaying concerns at this stage |
| 20:03 |
tenplus1 |
we need an official ios release but it'll cost to get it on the damn app store |
| 20:03 |
Shara |
IhrFussel: I'm in no hurry to update to 0.5 for the same reason |
| 20:03 |
IhrFussel |
benrob0329, I honestly don't care whether my players use something official or not as long as they follow my rules and contrinute to my server |
| 20:04 |
IhrFussel |
contribute* |
| 20:04 |
benrob0329 |
I vote to remove client provided mods, but retain the api for server use. |
| 20:04 |
red-001 |
I mean I could get a draft working in a day or two |
| 20:04 |
red-001 |
it's not hard to do and I implemented it as a PoC before |
| 20:04 |
Shara |
Would server-provided CSm actually address the issues? |
| 20:05 |
benrob0329 |
(And then squash commits to avoid a revert) |
| 20:05 |
IhrFussel |
All those "illegal" forks on iOS are widely used on MT servers... and I will not want to lose those just cause I cannot have important restrictions/features for my server version |
| 20:05 |
red-001 |
Of people being able to modify their client ofc not |
| 20:05 |
Shara |
That's not the issue |
| 20:05 |
red-001 |
you would need to get rid of minetest for that |
| 20:05 |
tenplus1 |
server side csm gives the owners control over the mods run on client side so no-one should be able to cheat at all |
| 20:05 |
Shara |
The issue is the server not being able to control this |
| 20:05 |
Shara |
Can someone confirm if what tenplus1 just said is correct? If so, please make it happen |
| 20:06 |
paramat |
server-provided CSM doesn't improve the cheating situation, but at least gives CSM a reason to exist |
| 20:06 |
benrob0329 |
Itd allow us to have things like prediction in the future without the worry of cheating |
| 20:06 |
IhrFussel |
No the reason is license conflicts |
| 20:06 |
Shara |
benrob0329: paramat's statement just proved you wrong |
| 20:06 |
IhrFussel |
the Apple store doesn't really allow GPL software |
| 20:06 |
paramat |
no tenplus is wrong |
| 20:06 |
tenplus1 |
? |
| 20:06 |
Shara |
So what I suspected. Just adds more on top and doesn't address the issue :) |
| 20:06 |
benrob0329 |
paramat: how does it not remove cheating? |
| 20:07 |
tenplus1 |
if server owners are in control of the mods loaded on client-side then HOW can the client cheat ? |
| 20:07 |
sfan5 |
server-side csm is a oxymoron and does not exist |
| 20:07 |
Shara |
Giving the server the ability to provide something doesn't magically make it able to detect and prevent what the client is doing |
| 20:07 |
tenplus1 |
csm mods loaded from server and RUN on client... |
| 20:07 |
sfan5 |
server-provided csm mods do not do anything to hinder cheating whatsoever |
| 20:07 |
red-001 |
I mean I'm kinda confused what exactly do you want? You are saying it's not the user being able to modify the code before compiling but it does seem to be that |
| 20:07 |
red-001 |
do you want to remove* |
| 20:07 |
Aerozoic |
What about simply blocking CSM from sending data to the server? |
| 20:08 |
Shara |
red-001: I don't think there is any real fix |
| 20:08 |
benrob0329 |
sfan5: we mean to disallow client provided mods |
| 20:08 |
sfan5 |
you can do that already in 0.5 |
| 20:08 |
paramat |
cheating will always be possible by altering a client, the only total protection against cheating is serverside checking of player actions (there's already a WIP PR) |
| 20:08 |
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| 20:08 |
benrob0329 |
Completely |
| 20:08 |
tenplus1 |
hi thomas |
| 20:08 |
red-001 |
I really don't see the point of discussing this then if there is no fix |
| 20:08 |
sfan5 |
^ |
| 20:08 |
Shara |
The barrier to cheating has been reduced too much. |
| 20:08 |
red-001 |
if you don't think anything you do can change this why do anything? |
| 20:09 |
benrob0329 |
If clients cannot provide code they cannot use that to cheat |
| 20:09 |
Shara |
I'm not the dev or someone who worked on CSM. |
| 20:09 |
Shara |
and red-001, you are actually the one who said this was fixable to begin so... |
| 20:09 |
* Shara |
shrugs |
| 20:09 |
benrob0329 |
If you remove the git history they cannot revert |
| 20:09 |
Roger9 |
I don't think a CSM can do anything a hacked client can't... |
| 20:09 |
ThomasMonroe |
hey tenplus1, been a while |
| 20:09 |
IhrFussel |
Shara, CSM flavors in 0.5.0 will fix that partly (cause it requires editing c++ code to cheat just like before CSM) but the actual problem is that it will NOT be in 0.4.17 |
| 20:10 |
red-001 |
well the client always provides code, the code executed by the cpu is usually loaded from storage that the client controls |
| 20:10 |
Shara |
IhrFussel: I think you are off the mark, but I'm getting tired of repeating myself |
| 20:10 |
red-001 |
if CSM flavours or even being able to tell clients to turn off csm doesn't fix this for you there is nothing that can |
| 20:10 |
Shara |
So last time: the problem is that it reduces the barrier to just changing one check in the code, whereas before you needed to actually write your own code. |
| 20:10 |
Shara |
And that difference is actually quite a big leap. |
| 20:10 |
sfan5 |
IhrFussel: backporting does not work as 0.4.17 will have backwards compat, if you connect with a .16 client to a .17 server flavor will have no effect at all |
| 20:11 |
benrob0329 |
Flavors completely disable things, not just user provided mods |
| 20:11 |
red-001 |
trust me 99% of users can't change one check |
| 20:11 |
Shara |
red-001: I had enough trouble with people using fly/noclip on my servers already |
| 20:11 |
red-001 |
over 99% |
| 20:11 |
Shara |
So it happens enough as far as I'm concerned |
| 20:11 |
IhrFussel |
Enabling fly just requires 1 line to be changed AFAIK... but barely anyone does it |
| 20:12 |
benrob0329 |
IhrFussel: it requires you to build the engine |
| 20:12 |
Shara |
Fussel, you are lucky then. I've had a lot of problems with it more than once |
| 20:12 |
benrob0329 |
User provided csm does not |
| 20:12 |
red-001 |
I remember all the panic after someone released a modded client for cheating and see what came of that |
| 20:13 |
IhrFussel |
benrob0329, I thought CSM flavors is c++?? You confuse me now |
| 20:13 |
red-001 |
seems most would be cheaters can't even google |
| 20:13 |
paramat |
CSM is c++ yes |
| 20:13 |
Shara |
But since people are just going in circles or not understanding, red-001 is right that it is pointless to carry on. |
| 20:13 |
benrob0329 |
Flavors restrict csm in general but still allows it if a server provided csm needs a feature |
| 20:13 |
paramat |
*CSM flavours is c++ |
| 20:13 |
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CalebDavis joined #minetest-hub |
| 20:13 |
tenplus1 |
hi caleb |
| 20:13 |
Shara |
I will be considering whitelisting my servers or making them private, at least my survival server. |
| 20:14 |
CalebDavis |
hi ten |
| 20:14 |
IhrFussel |
Ok so fact: With 0.5.0 the situation will be kinda be the same like before CSM introduction again meaning you cannot simply add some lua and cheat the server |
| 20:14 |
sfan5 |
correct |
| 20:14 |
benrob0329 |
So with flavors, you can leave it useful and open to abuse, or closed and pointless. |
| 20:15 |
paramat |
well flavours only restricts the dangerous functions (get node etc) |
| 20:15 |
benrob0329 |
Because the user can still provide arbitrary code. |
| 20:15 |
IhrFussel |
Okay but that still doesn't help 0.4.X servers that don't want to switch yet |
| 20:15 |
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Shara left #minetest-hub |
| 20:16 |
Fixer |
so much spam in chat |
| 20:16 |
paramat |
personally, my controversial opinion is to remove CSM |
| 20:16 |
jas_ |
hi Fixer ! |
| 20:16 |
tenplus1 |
+1 paramat |
| 20:16 |
benrob0329 |
IhrFussel: 0.4x cannot be helped, its already broken |
| 20:17 |
paramat |
i'm not even sure server-provided CSM is worth the trouble |
| 20:17 |
benrob0329 |
Unless its made incompatible with 0.4.16 its useless to patch the 0.4 branch |
| 20:17 |
tenplus1 |
if the sql checks are reduced (what shiva said earlier) that'll help speed things up so csm wont really be needed |
| 20:17 |
IhrFussel |
benrob0329, but the core devs leave server owners with established userbase helpless now in a way since they need to accept that their servers can be compromised very easily by CSMs |
| 20:17 |
paramat |
however, this is not a pleasant thing to suggest due to the work put in |
| 20:18 |
tenplus1 |
I know, it's a good idea but with NO control over the feature itself... doesnt help |
| 20:18 |
benrob0329 |
IhrFussel: yup, thats the problem |
| 20:18 |
paramat |
but i think it might be best |
| 20:19 |
benrob0329 |
Client Side Code is useful for servers to reduce load, its useful for cheating if the user can provide it. |
| 20:19 |
IhrFussel |
No matter what you decides it only helps those who switch to 0.5.0 and risk losing their userbase |
| 20:20 |
benrob0329 |
IhrFussel: unfortunately yes, although you could ban users if they use 0.4.16 |
| 20:21 |
IhrFussel |
benrob0329, 0.4.16 cannot connect to 0.5.0 I think...min protocol was bumped |
| 20:22 |
Donbatman |
Server owners should get together and set a date to upgrade. THen let all players know that on that date they need to upgrade to 0.5.0 |
| 20:22 |
benrob0329 |
IhrFussel: if a fixed 0.4x release was made, you could kick all 0.4.16 clients |
| 20:22 |
jas_ |
all players? |
| 20:22 |
Fixer |
hello |
| 20:22 |
benrob0329 |
jas_: force them to upgrade or downgrade |
| 20:22 |
Fixer |
people here over dramatisizing |
| 20:22 |
Donbatman |
A simple mod that sends a chat to let them know every 10 minutes |
| 20:22 |
IhrFussel |
Donbatman, I can show you how many players still connect with 0.4.11 clients |
| 20:23 |
benrob0329 |
IhrFussel: upgrade or downgrade bases on feature checks, but dont allow 0.4.16 |
| 20:24 |
IhrFussel |
Okay well not a lot use 0.4.11 anymore but this morning someone joined with one... now let's see 0.4.12 |
| 20:24 |
Donbatman |
IhrFussel I understand many clients are still behind on things but it is either move forward trying to improve minetest or catter to people who don't upgrade |
| 20:25 |
IhrFussel |
The problem is that iOS users cannot play anymore since (likely) nobody will create an "illegal" 0.5.0 app |
| 20:26 |
jas_ |
i was under the impression they never could |
| 20:26 |
jas_ |
there was not an official minetest for iOS, due to their ToS |
| 20:26 |
benrob0329 |
jas_: can and should are different |
| 20:26 |
IhrFussel |
They couldn't right now cause the switch to c++11 and some other things messed up the build tools |
| 20:26 |
jas_ |
that's android too, not just iOS, afaik |
| 20:27 |
Donbatman |
Someone should try to get ahold of a person that made the iOS app and see if they can make a 0.5.0 app |
| 20:27 |
IhrFussel |
Yes...but my theory is that (at least on Android) devs *will* fork 0.5.0 Android MT and create their apps again |
| 20:27 |
sfan5 |
Donbatman: which iOS app are you referencing? |
| 20:27 |
Donbatman |
I am saying any iOS app |
| 20:28 |
Donbatman |
I do not use apple so I know nothing about the apps |
| 20:28 |
tenplus1 |
I dont like apple for the fact they wont let anyone install there own apps without the store |
| 20:29 |
IhrFussel |
tenplus1, unfortunately iPhones and iPads are extremely popular in the world...and many parents rather buy their kids one of those vs a cheap Android device |
| 20:30 |
tenplus1 |
*shudder* would prefer android any day |
| 20:30 |
IhrFussel |
But I cannot tell my active iOS users "go buy an anroid phone" |
| 20:30 |
IhrFussel |
android* |
| 20:30 |
Fixer |
well, both ios and android are kinds of shit, it is just one is more "anal" |
| 20:31 |
IhrFussel |
Android is definitely more open |
| 20:32 |
IhrFussel |
Not sure about Google ToS but Apple states "you don't own this device you just buy the license to use it" |
| 20:33 |
jas_ |
i wanna add a crouch but i'm outta buttons |
| 20:34 |
jas_ |
want to add a crouch, with eye height adjustment, model animation, and collision adjust so players can fit through 1-node spaces |
| 20:35 |
Fixer |
buy raspb pi and setup retropi with bestest games of ERA, bestest |
| 20:36 |
jas_ |
minetest_game best game |
| 20:36 |
jas_ |
my favorite thing in the dry shrubs |
| 20:36 |
Fixer |
back in my day i had zx and nes, now you have everything, easy to setup and to DL (harhar) |
| 20:37 |
Fixer |
so kids can have maximum fun, without walled gardens, microshitzactions, etc |
| 20:37 |
jas_ |
i had doom with pc speaker, that was awesome i need to use my pc speakers more |
| 20:37 |
jas_ |
beep |
| 20:37 |
sfan5 |
minetest should release its own tablet hardware |
| 20:37 |
jas_ |
loooool |
| 20:38 |
Donbatman |
Fixer, I am guessing you had to walk uphill through 3 feet of snow to go play your nes too right? |
| 20:38 |
Fixer |
not really, I had to walk few houses away to 33MHz PC |
| 20:39 |
Fixer |
and snow is kinda sucks in Europe (too little) |
| 20:39 |
Fixer |
for some it is nice, no need to shovel that crap, but for some reason I like to shovel it (physic and that general winter feel) |
| 20:39 |
jas_ |
it's so wonderful. mmm, shoveling snow in the cold |
| 20:41 |
tenplus1 |
nite folks o/ |
| 20:41 |
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tenplus1 left #minetest-hub |
| 20:46 |
jas_ |
better than shoveling in the heat i guess, the snow gets heavy when it's wet lol |
| 21:12 |
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| 21:33 |
benrob0329 |
Fixer: come to Michigan sometime :-P |
| 21:33 |
benrob0329 |
You can have all the shoveling you can muster :-) |
| 21:38 |
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| 21:42 |
benrob0329 |
paramat: what do you think about adding some out of the way lore into MTG |
| 21:42 |
benrob0329 |
Spruce up dungeons and the like with it |
| 21:44 |
benrob0329 |
(I'm going to make an issue discussing the idea in more detail) |
| 21:51 |
paramat |
well it depends of course, but i agree with Shara, MTG is too general and neutral for some things |
| 21:51 |
paramat |
but will address the specifics you raise |
| 21:56 |
benrob0329 |
paramat: the idea is that it stays hidden and out of the way if the player doesnt want to explore it, but adds more depth for why things are the way they are. |
| 21:57 |
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| 21:58 |
paramat |
my opinion on today's discussion about MTG is that when it comes to fun, excitement, interest: new games are where it's at, MTG will always be somewhat limited by having to be a mod base, and because so much depends on it |
| 21:59 |
paramat |
however it will continue to be improved, i have a lot of stuff on the way |
| 22:00 |
paramat |
games made without the slowness of official dev, and made by small teams or one person, will likely be more interesting |
| 22:02 |
paramat |
so i think some pressure needs to be taken off MTG in terms of people's expectations, and new games need to be encouraged |
| 22:06 |
sfan5 |
maintaining / writing a whole new subgame is not easy and it seems most people just want to play "minecraft but not quite" with some addtl. mods |
| 22:07 |
paramat |
yes, so we'll continue to improve MTG and move it closer to being a 'game' |
| 22:10 |
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Shara joined #minetest-hub |
| 22:11 |
benrob0329 |
Wb Shara |
| 22:11 |
Shara |
Thanks. |
| 22:12 |
benrob0329 |
paramat: I think MTG can be made fun, while still being modular and small |
| 22:12 |
benrob0329 |
Fun does not need to bee complex, simplicity can be blissful |
| 22:12 |
Shara |
What I want to know, on the topic of subgames, is what the odds are of getting more official subgames added (assuming suitable ones can be produced) |
| 22:12 |
sfan5 |
Shara: made small changes to the news post, thoughts? https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=300744 |
| 22:13 |
sfan5 |
or maybe my changes are small enough not to be noticeable :P |
| 22:13 |
Shara |
I detect extra bold |
| 22:14 |
sfan5 |
yea |
| 22:14 |
Shara |
But seems nice and clear to me |
| 22:14 |
paramat |
odds are high if a game is not too similar to MTG (as many are) |
| 22:14 |
Shara |
(Also sorry for not just making a post myself earlier - but since I can't post to that forum, it felt a bit silly :P) |
| 22:15 |
Shara |
paramat: I have some plans as you know, and though there will be some similarities, I hope what I have in mind will be different enough. |
| 22:15 |
benrob0329 |
While I am very excited to see new games and projects, I think we still need to make the default game fun. I agree that MTG need to be lightweight and modular, but I think we can make due with that :-) |
| 22:15 |
Shara |
Biggest challenge is the sheer amount of work |
| 22:16 |
Shara |
And I guess I worry that very few subgames seem to get much attention, and that without official status, they will never really be picked up by new people the way MTG is |
| 22:16 |
Shara |
It's MTG's status as the only official game that makes it such a focus for criticism. |
| 22:16 |
benrob0329 |
Inside The Box is a great example of a non-orthodox game made with Minetest, and I can't wait to see more projects like it |
| 22:17 |
paramat |
i guess we should also re-assess the existing games for inclusion |
| 22:17 |
benrob0329 |
I also hope to see adventures, roleplay, and more created. But we still need to give a good first impression |
| 22:17 |
Shara |
I struggle to think of any that are different enough and also complete enough, but I didn't play that many subgames yet |
| 22:18 |
benrob0329 |
Don't overwhelm the user with choices (this is honestly the biggest complaint I hear about MT ready) |
| 22:18 |
benrob0329 |
*already |
| 22:18 |
Shara |
Some good subgames like CTF and Inside the Box are clearly server focused, so not suitable for inclusion in that way |
| 22:18 |
Shara |
benrob0329: complaint from who? I never heard that from anyone |
| 22:18 |
benrob0329 |
Right now, a new user cannot just pick up the game and play |
| 22:19 |
Shara |
That's not about choices though |
| 22:19 |
benrob0329 |
They have to set up things or connect to a server |
| 22:19 |
Shara |
And actually you can, but MTG is the only official game and is boring |
| 22:19 |
benrob0329 |
Its from someone who doesnt like 3000 options |
| 22:20 |
Shara |
I don't really get it. Pick up game, select singleplayer or server, play |
| 22:20 |
paramat |
i haven't noticed people complain about choices, they usually want more |
| 22:20 |
Shara |
The problem is only one official game as a choice, and people struggle when it comes to adding mods/games themselves |
| 22:20 |
benrob0329 |
Which was the point of his comment (which others peers agree with him) |
| 22:20 |
Shara |
I've actually lost players on my servers... as a result of explaining to them how to install mods |
| 22:21 |
benrob0329 |
Too many mods, too many choices, you can't just play and have fun unless you join a server |
| 22:21 |
benrob0329 |
Or sift through mods |
| 22:21 |
Shara |
That's not about too many choices. It's about not enough default choice without learning to jump through hoops |
| 22:21 |
benrob0329 |
(I don't have a problem searching through mods, but I like tweaking everything) |
| 22:22 |
benrob0329 |
Shara: that's a better way to put it |
| 22:22 |
paramat |
'too many mods' heh |
| 22:22 |
benrob0329 |
But having 10 different default games may be a bit too much "default choice" |
| 22:22 |
Shara |
If MT game with a small number of games, or had an easy way to let the user get more from the client, a lot would be solved |
| 22:23 |
Shara |
Since there is just one now, I doubt another nine will appear over night |
| 22:23 |
paramat |
well once someone makes an exciting game we can make it the default. and MTG will improve (skins mod, simple mobs) |
| 22:23 |
Shara |
I think the bigger worry is there being no suitable games right now, not there being too many :) |
| 22:24 |
paramat |
yes |
| 22:24 |
benrob0329 |
paramat: will the Dungeon Master and Orkki be returning? |
| 22:24 |
benrob0329 |
They were the only official mobs to ever be in MT |
| 22:25 |
* benrob0329 |
uploaded an image: 79d5239590597beaf4565568fafb0d00-d6li8k1.jpg (341KB) <https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/LtBteJTpBHTlrvwwkZiwOBVU> |
| 22:25 |
benrob0329 |
I still want this to be a thing in-game :P |
| 22:27 |
benrob0329 |
Question, would mobs be allowed to have some angles faces or would the models have to look pixelated? |
| 22:28 |
paramat |
cuboid and simple for consistency with player model |
| 22:29 |
paramat |
many mob mods have models far too fancy |
| 22:33 |
benrob0329 |
paramat: yes, but it woukd be more difficult to to a waistline as a block than as a small angle |
| 22:33 |
Fixer |
mtg right now is pretty much sandbox game (that is pretty much creative), but it has this other survivalist parts (like mining, smelting, farming) - so it is not just sandbox, then it is incomplete survival |
| 22:33 |
benrob0329 |
(And require more polygons) |
| 22:34 |
benrob0329 |
The point would be to make the DM seem "buff" rather than cuddly as the current model does |
| 22:35 |
paramat |
which current model? |
| 22:37 |
benrob0329 |
Mobs_Redo or Simple_Mobs |
| 22:39 |
benrob0329 |
The nickname among my friends was "teaddy bear", we didn't even know it was hostile at first lol |
| 22:39 |
benrob0329 |
we learned rather quickly |
| 23:07 |
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| 23:18 |
Fixer |
when i seen it in 0.3 - it coincided with pedobear meme, so I named that way, and in a way it had some visual similarities |
| 23:18 |
Fixer |
teddy bear is much more peaceful |
| 23:23 |
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