Time Nick Message 00:02 Jordach Calinou, the CRT setting looks fucking awesome on my LG Ultrawide 00:03 Calinou I use the default 00:03 Jordach CRT looks clearer on my screen 00:03 Calinou Roger9: well, I have a pretty solid Windows dev environment now :) 00:03 Jordach i wish i could get Samsungs OLED rendering 00:03 Calinou Linux doesn't quite work perfectly on my laptop 00:03 Calinou or even on my desktop 00:03 Calinou so I went back to Windows :/ 00:05 benrob0329 Calinou: all Intel laptops FTW :P 00:06 benrob0329 Although I had to install drivers for my old laptop before it worked properly 00:07 Calinou my laptop is all Intel 00:07 Calinou it still has many issues 00:07 Calinou I ran Linux on it from February to June 2017 00:07 Calinou (Manjaro, kernel 4.9) 00:08 benrob0329 "Many issues" is rather ambiguous 01:24 Jordach anyone know the luajit libs on apt-get 01:25 Jordach libluajit-5.1-dev nevermind 02:15 Roger9 I'm using Minetest from the AppImage, but it seems to be very laggy. 03:48 Megaf https://xkcd.com/371/ 06:05 sofar https://i.imgur.com/siFOxj6.png 06:05 sofar Does that look interesting? 06:05 sofar it's not waving, it's just "slightly lower" water level 10:38 tenplus1 hi folks 10:43 Donbatman Hi tenplus1 10:43 tenplus1 Hey Don, how's it going ? 10:43 Donbatman Good 10:44 Donbatman How are you doing 10:44 tenplus1 glad to hear :) am okie, just fixed bug in Bonemeal mod 10:45 tenplus1 what ya been up to ? 10:46 Donbatman Wife and I broke up so I moved and have been busy sorting through stuff and getting her ready to move 10:46 tenplus1 erk, sorry to hear dude... 10:47 Donbatman sorry? I am single now so I am free to do as I please :) 10:47 tenplus1 lol dude... 10:47 tenplus1 was worried when I didnt see you online for a while 10:47 Donbatman Dog needs out. brb 10:47 tenplus1 k 10:47 Donbatman I got my dog :) 10:48 tenplus1 dogs are kewl :) 10:49 tenplus1 strangely enough "Grade A Under A" has been away for some time as well, was starting to think you were he 10:50 tenplus1 hi Krock 10:51 Krock hi tenplus1 10:52 Krock wasn't prepared this time. You seem to show up too less recently! 10:52 tenplus1 been busy at work lately... 10:52 tenplus1 our company is being bought over, so mass panic!!!! :P 10:55 tenplus1 I had an idea for a foody mod that uses groups for crafting recipes so that it works with all food items in mods... e.g. strawberry will have food_strawberry=1 set for recipe 10:56 tenplus1 gotta check forum tho, see if it's been done first :d 10:57 Donbatman back 10:57 Donbatman hi Krock 11:00 * tenplus1 sips le coffee 11:01 * Donbatman sips le Coke 11:01 * tenplus1 looks at Krock 11:01 * Donbatman wonders if Krock is gone to make coffee 11:02 tenplus1 or a banana smoothie ? 11:02 Donbatman Minetest 0.5.0 has some big changes 11:03 tenplus1 yeah, was hoping they'd skip 0.4.17 and just move straight to 0.5.0 so everyone would need to upgrade already 11:03 Donbatman Need to run 2 versions now 11:03 tenplus1 am not even writing mods for 0.5.0 until official release 11:03 tenplus1 it'll take a lot longer now 11:04 Donbatman I have to go through all my mods now 11:04 tenplus1 I updated to 0.4.16 functions already, so far so good... 11:04 Donbatman Don't think it will effect many of my mods 11:05 tenplus1 just gotta check for deprecated functions that scroll through console with warnings 11:06 Donbatman I will get to that eventually 11:07 Donbatman Should we maintain 2 versions of the mods or just upgrade them to only work on 0.5.0 11:07 tenplus1 Iwas hoping for a december release on 0.5.0, but they shoe horned 0.4.17 in there so I suppose we gotta write for that 11:08 tenplus1 which slows down 0.5.0 mod develppment for when it DOES come out... 11:08 tenplus1 cause players cant run both and connect to ALL servers on 0.4.17 11:08 tenplus1 sinec some are already using latest dev 0.5 11:09 Donbatman The 0.5 servers must be slow. So many players are android apps and they are not 0.5 yet 11:09 tenplus1 0.4.16/17 cannot connect to 0.5 servers 11:10 Donbatman I noticed that when I compiled the latest 11:11 tenplus1 I wanna be able to tell all my players to update to 0.5 when stable is released and have ALL mods and servers follow with a decent client 11:12 Donbatman Do you know if they have a proposed release date yet? 11:12 tenplus1 sadly no... next release is 0.4.17... we we'll be a while away from 0.5 11:13 Donbatman I need to catch up on mt news 11:14 tenplus1 the main change is the player model, a new 3d_armor mod is needed to use it properly and I've already tweaked invisibility potion mod to use it 11:14 Krock hi Donbatman 11:15 * Donbatman wonders if Krock has a coffee or a banana shake 11:17 * Krock doesn't have either of them 11:17 tenplus1 buuuuuu 11:18 tenplus1 hi Jordach 11:28 tenplus1 Jordach: do you know when 0.5.0 is scheduled for release ? 11:40 tenplus1 wb dude 11:46 * Donbatman sips le coffee 11:46 tenplus1 ehe 11:47 tenplus1 I have a tiny box of Civet Cat Coffee to try, am hesitant tho :P 11:47 tenplus1 https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2014/sep/19/civet-cat-coffee-worlds-most-expensive-brew-made-sustainably-kopi-luwak 11:48 Donbatman Thats coffee cats crapped 11:49 tenplus1 sorta, yeah :) that's why I'm hesitant 11:49 tenplus1 but it's meant to taste amazing 11:49 Donbatman taste is subjective 11:50 tenplus1 very true... 11:50 tenplus1 strangely enough I'm watching "Kitchen Nightmares" with Gordon Ramsay... so funny 11:50 Donbatman lol 11:53 tenplus1 so many of the fancy resto's are anything but, would rather eat from Gregg's :) 11:54 Donbatman Ya 11:55 Donbatman Rich people are gross. That is why I choose to be poor 11:55 Donbatman :P 11:55 shivajiva Hi folks, wb tenplus1 11:55 tenplus1 agree'd, am happy having just enough to get by 11:55 tenplus1 hi shiva, how's tricks ? 11:56 Donbatman hi shivajiva 11:56 shivajiva not bad thanks, had fun? 11:56 shivajiva Hi Don 11:57 tenplus1 working more than fun :P ehe 11:58 shivajiva I can confirm UI makes a shed load of priv checks on player join ~947 on my count 11:59 shivajiva no wonder folks say it's slow 11:59 tenplus1 eek, that many ?!?! 12:00 shivajiva though with only 8 calls in the code something is looping 12:01 tenplus1 for 947 calls it must be looping through all players numerous times 12:01 tenplus1 heh 12:01 shivajiva thats what I was thinking 12:01 tenplus1 same way detached inventories looped through ALL players at one point and was thankfully fixed 12:02 shivajiva I plan to hunt it down just for fun =) 12:03 tenplus1 good luck dude, hope you find it :) 12:03 Donbatman You can do it! 12:03 tenplus1 the auth system needs a bit of work and sauth may be the way to go :D 12:04 shivajiva it would be nice to stop it and see how much improvement to the response there is 12:05 tenplus1 cacheing of player info on join would speed things up 12:06 shivajiva I added some delay to the unload event to see if it helps logins that don't complete the first attempt 12:07 shivajiva 60 seconds before they are moved out of the cache 12:09 shivajiva but tests on Hometown were a bit odd, 7 million touches of sqlite or it's schema in 30 seconds 12:10 tenplus1 7 mil ? how many players online at the time ? 12:10 shivajiva 28 I think 12:10 tenplus1 and were the touches outwith the map ? 12:11 shivajiva CTF and RC don't get that kind of traffic with sauth but HT did and they were exclusively sauth.sqlite 12:12 tenplus1 weird 12:17 tenplus1 brb 12:17 Shara DL, not RC. Still haven't tried it on RC :P 12:18 shivajiva if I hadn't been pointed to the forum post I wouldn't even be aware of the issue, oh yes sorry DL 12:18 Shara Also, hello :) 12:18 shivajiva Hiya 12:19 Donbatman Morning Shara 12:19 Shara Hi Don :) 12:19 davisonio hey 12:29 Shara Hi davisonio 12:31 Shara And maybe I am wrong, but wasn't 0.4.17 just meant to be a small bugfix release? I'm not sure why that would cause delays to 0.5 12:34 tenplus1 hi fixer 12:34 tenplus1 hi Shara 12:34 Shara Hi tenplus1 12:35 tenplus1 hi davis 12:35 * tenplus1 is making lunch :) nom time is upon us 12:36 Donbatman This doesn't look too bad. https://github.com/minetest/minetest/milestone/9 12:36 sfan5 that doesn't mean 0.5 will be finished soon fyi 12:36 Donbatman The auth.txt issue seems to be the biggest thing 12:37 Donbatman Hi sfan5 12:37 Shara All I'm curious about is whether 0.4.17 being a thing delays it 12:37 tenplus1 hi sfan 12:37 Shara Personally I really want 0.4.17 12:38 tenplus1 0.4.17 is a good interim update but... since 0.5 breaks a few things inc. player models it would be better to urge updates to that before continuing with anything 12:38 tenplus1 that way mod makers can tailor everything towards 0.5 just now instead of putting things off 12:38 Shara tenplus1: Not everyone wants to rush into such a big update 12:39 Shara Especially given the issues with all the apps and so on 12:39 davisonio auth.txt has always had problems for me 12:39 davisonio hope it gets fixed - too many times it's been corrupted 12:40 Shara davisonio: there was a change recently that was meant to help prevent corruption 12:40 tenplus1 sauth helps also davis 12:40 davisonio is it in 0.4.16? 12:40 Shara No, because it was recent 12:40 davisonio ok I'll have to leave it till its stable then haha 12:41 Shara I've switched to sauth on the server where I kept getting auth related problems 12:41 davisonio will have a look into it 12:41 davisonio also need to look into the new player database thing 12:44 tenplus1 many new features to play with davis 12:44 davisonio exciting times :) 12:44 tenplus1 am eager to see what shiva finds with the sql checks 12:47 shivajiva the thing about HT's issue is that it suggests unique non cached player entries or the database file wouldn't be touched only the cache. Now how the hell does the hardware support 7 million logins in 30 seconds 12:48 Shara I showed on DL that sauth wasn't even being touch unless players logged in 12:48 Shara touched* 12:49 Shara And despite socerykid seeming to think no sauth using server other than HT sees decent activity, the server list simply disagrees. DL is often pushing at it's player cap, which means in the background it's getting lots of prejoins that never make it through 12:50 Shara (this is happening at the moment) 12:50 Shara And CTF is clearly busy 12:50 Shara So this can't simply be because HT is busy. 12:52 shivajiva it's not, the cache would handle that, something is constantly checking offline players on that server 12:53 Shara Yup, has to be,which implies it's not sauth at all. 12:53 davisonio strange - I remember the days when every single player file was loaded into RAM - maybe a bit like that 12:53 sfan5 davisonio: it's possible to backport these fixes onto 0.4.16 12:53 Shara Though have to wonder why they only see this when using sauth 12:53 sfan5 this is what 0.4.17 will be doing actually 12:54 davisonio great, if its in 0.4.17 that's the best 12:54 Shara sfan5: will 0.4.17 include the ability for the server to limit CSM use? 12:54 tenplus1 yeah, that was another big issue I was hoping 0.5 would fix.... if it's in 0.4.17 then all is good 12:54 sfan5 Shara: nope 12:54 tenplus1 dammit 12:54 Shara Ugh. ANy chance of it being there? 12:54 Shara It's a pretty big issue. 12:54 sfan5 since it will be backwards compat with 0.4.16 or older you can't guarantee that the client would actually have the csm limits code 12:55 Shara Wait. So all of that is client side?? 12:55 sfan5 yes, how else would you do that? 12:55 Shara SSSo actually there is no way for aserver to limit CSM after all then. 12:55 Shara So* 12:55 tenplus1 hi fussel 12:55 IhrFussel Hi tenplus1 12:56 sfan5 correct, the server can't force the client to do or not do some things 12:56 shivajiva anyone can remove the code and compile a version that ignores the server 12:56 sfan5 the only way to 100% fix e.g. oredetect would be not sending occluded ores (sending them as if they were stone) 12:56 sfan5 which adds a lot of overhead 12:56 Shara It's not about ores sfan5 12:56 IhrFussel That the game sometimes doesn't loa the server list is honestly unacceptable... can't you include a retry or even 2 within X secs? I literally just thought my internet was out cause the client couldn't load the servers 12:56 sfan5 shivajiva: it's the same with fly, fast & noclip checks, which is good enough usually 12:57 Shara It's about the client's ability to send things to the server as well. 12:57 Shara I want the ability to stop people using those colour codes and things 12:57 shivajiva not good enough to keep me running a server sfan 12:57 sfan5 shivajiva: well sorry, we're not gonna implement DRM 12:57 * tenplus1 wants a way to disable csm for server 12:57 Shara tenplus1: it's just been confirmed we'll never really get it 12:57 sfan5 color codes can be stripped server-side 12:57 Shara sfan5: not in current stable they can't 12:58 * shivajiva *sighs* 12:58 shivajiva I may as well leave now then huh sfan5? 12:58 sfan5 sounds like a missing feature 12:58 Shara sfan5: can that at least get in 0.4.17 please? 12:59 sfan5 i doubt it's actually impossible, might just be impossible from Lua 12:59 sfan5 shivajiva: if that is your conclusion then you have interpreted the situation incorrectly 13:00 shivajiva then clarify it once and for all pls 13:00 Shara The issue is that the barrier to this kind of thing is still massively reduced 13:00 Shara Since I assume editing the client to reenable CSM is much simpler than also coding what the CSM would do 13:00 Shara You've basically reduced a whole host of things to the same level of entry as enabling fly and noclip 13:01 sfan5 correct 13:01 Shara So actually none of the concerns have really been addressed at all 13:01 IhrFussel Shara, there is a solution that works in 0.4.16 stable...at least for chat messages minetest.strip_colors(message) 13:01 sfan5 Shara: you want this in 0.4.17, correct? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/minetest.conf.example#L1041 13:02 sfan5 because i'm pretty sure a mod could do that 13:02 Shara End result: CSM has still made us much more vulnerable 13:02 Shara sfan5: Yes, would like that in please. 13:03 Shara I'd rather not need to create mods for something that's there as real functionality if I can avoid it 13:04 IhrFussel Isn't there a merged PR that restricts CSMs?? You could simply backport it to 0.4.17 13:04 sfan5 ok, noted 13:04 Shara Fussel, nope, it's all client side 13:04 Shara sfan5: Thanks 13:05 tenplus1 sfan5: we arent trying to rain on a good feature, just wanting control to stop users using it for bad things 13:05 Shara Compatibility break is needed or older clients will still just be able to carry on with the CSM 13:05 IhrFussel But server owners were told that they will be able to control which CSM functions are accepted on the server 13:05 Shara There was actually someone doing the rounds to see how many servers were vulnerable to certain things in CSM yesterday and many were. 13:06 Shara Thankfully that person was out to alert server owners, not abuse things. 13:06 sfan5 what are those "certain things" if i may ask? 13:06 Shara In this case, something that's thankfully handled in the mod responsible 13:06 Shara But of course lots of people don't constantly update to current versions 13:07 IhrFussel sfan5, I can name you one (which has been fixed in MTG-dev but still): taking items from the creative inventory 13:07 sfan5 can you point me to the commit that fixed that? since i'm pretty sure that mtg has always done this correctly 13:08 IhrFussel sfan5, https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/commit/a1d35f3d69dbed8cd9ce317a11f2bd2f7c816c75#diff-70fc65948f2178f6fc1f14ffc7c36b8a 13:09 Fixer hi 13:09 Shara Problem here is that MTG is currently focused on 0.5? Can people on current stable even simply update to it? 13:10 IhrFussel Shara, No I had to manually edit the files 13:10 sfan5 it is and no 13:10 Shara So many issues with mod compatibility as well now. 13:10 Shara So it shouldn't be surprising server owners aren't managing to keep up to date 13:11 IhrFussel Krock even tried the "cheat" on my server and asked me how I fixed it =P 13:12 Krock creative or worldedit? 13:12 Shara creative 13:12 Shara I really, really hope that everyone has updated WE by now 13:12 sfan5 IhrFussel: hm indeed didn't even remember that 13:12 IhrFussel But I can assure you that many public servers do NOT have that fix from MTG-dev ... so they are at risk of being exploited 13:12 * tenplus1 has 13:13 Krock Shara, if you see a server, there's a script which uses the hole to patch itself 13:13 Shara On one level it's great that CSM is revealing the problems, but still leaving the server no way to prevent CSM, so that when the next issue is found servers are helpless... 13:13 Shara This is just plain bad 13:14 Fixer iirc there was nodeupdate thing 13:14 Shara Krock: Good to know, but I still prefer to try speak to the owner first 13:15 IhrFussel CSM makes server exploits more trivial and I think everyone will agree there... before CSM it was not as easy to find flaws in mod's code 13:15 Shara Fussel: like I said above, it's reduced the barrier to learning to enable CSM in the client again, instead of them needing to also work out how to write the code 13:15 Shara So same level as fly/fast 13:16 Shara And given no one predicted many of the things that have appeared with CSM, no one can say they know there won't be more 13:17 IhrFussel I'd guess max 5% of the MT userbase has a clue about c++ while lots more know how to install an enable CSMs 13:17 Shara IhrFussel: editing a bit of code to skip a check is trivial compared to needing to actually write code 13:18 sfan5 you still need to compile a working version of minetest after "editing a bit of code" 13:18 IhrFussel Shara, barely any 10 yr old kid would dare to even look at that source code... while installing a CSM is no problem for young kids 13:18 sfan5 which is very much nontrivial on e.g. windows 13:18 Shara Even I've managed to compile on Windows :P 13:18 Shara But yea, I know 13:18 Shara It still lowers it 13:19 sfan5 regarding taking control away from server owners: i believe this discussion has been had already and having it again would be pointless 13:19 IhrFussel And young kids are *mostly* the ones that want to cause trouble and troll servers and "hack" them 13:19 sfan5 I'm unable to find where this discussion was though (forums?) 13:19 Fixer IhrFussel: yeah, but there are bright ones 10+ that can do that 13:20 IhrFussel sfan5, what happened to the bold claim "don't worry server owners will be able to white/blacklist CSM functions in the future"? 13:20 Shara So server owners' concerns are pointless in this. Good to know. 13:20 sfan5 IhrFussel: that's what flavor limits are 13:20 tenplus1 I use the csm chest_inspector mod and it can easily open chests and clone items 13:21 sfan5 that's a bug in minetest_game / whatever provides your chests 13:21 Shara It only takes one player who is able to give themselves items to wreck a survival server's economy and spoil the game for quite a long time 13:21 sfan5 csm "just" exposes those issues and that isn't what you should be worried about 13:21 tenplus1 doesnt matter whast mod provides the chest, it can open the "main" inventory inside any chest and remove items 13:21 IhrFussel So there IS a way to disable certain CSM functions in 0.5.0-dev now? A server-side way? 13:22 sfan5 yes and no 13:22 tenplus1 it doesnt adhere to the on_inventory_move functions at all cause it opens it's own formspec 13:22 sfan5 IhrFussel: with 0.5 the server can tell the client "please don't use this, this and this" and a normal client will obey it 13:22 sfan5 tenplus1: that's impossible, inventory movements are server side and will always result in callbacks being called 13:23 IhrFussel Who thought that having the restriction client side would make any sense? We server owners were told that we could "disable" any kind of CSM if we wanted to 13:23 lisac WTF I didn't know that bug became public 13:23 lisac good morning. 13:23 tenplus1 hi lisac 13:23 Shara Hi lisac 13:23 * tenplus1 checks something 13:23 lisac I notified most server owners with affected servers yesterday. 13:23 Raven262 Hello everyone. 13:23 sfan5 you seem to be implying that fixing this is easy 13:23 tenplus1 hey raven 13:23 lisac tenplus1, Xanadu didn't seem to be affected by the bug. 13:24 Shara lisac: it's come up a few times, but didn't want to outright say it was you testing it :) 13:24 Fixer tenplus1: use where? 13:24 tenplus1 dammit, chet inspector lets you remove everything without check 13:24 tenplus1 conformed 13:24 lisac I hope not everyone wants to lynch lisac. 13:24 tenplus1 *confirmed 13:24 * shivajiva waits patiently for a reply from sfan5 13:24 tenplus1 which bug lisac ? 13:24 Shara lisac: nope, the way you were doing it was pretty responsible and helpful 13:24 lisac yay 13:24 lisac tenplus1, you can access the creative inventory with a CSM 13:24 sfan5 even AAA games by multi-million dollar companies struggle with cheaters despite invasive anticheat and DRM, please tell me how a FOSS project can feasibly enforce some limits 13:25 lisac on servers using outdated creative mod 13:25 sfan5 shivajiva: the "having this discussion again would pointless" kind of was the reply but you should also read the above 13:25 Shara sfan5: we don't expect all cheats ever to be prevented 13:25 lisac if anyone wants the test code I used, pm me 13:25 tenplus1 xanadu uses custom creative mod 13:25 sfan5 pretty much the only way to address your concerns would be to remove CSM again 13:25 lisac I already gave it to... 3 people? 13:26 lisac Nore, Sofar, and Shara. 13:26 Shara But we do expect the developer team not to add features that specifically low the barrier to cheating 13:26 lisac they seem pretty trusted. 13:26 Shara lower* 13:26 shivajiva so client prediction / server reconciliation of movement/flying/noclip will never be realised in minetest? 13:26 IhrFussel lisac, the fix is on github so anyone who looks for exploits can easily find it 13:27 lisac IhrFussel, Ik, yet half of the servers I checked yesterday don't apply it. 13:27 sfan5 shivajiva: not what i was trying to say, minetest still does that to the extent possible 13:27 IhrFussel lisac, cause it would break their MTG ... current MTG is not compatible with 0.4.16 13:28 sfan5 Shara: that's a reasonable position, but merging CSM into minetest means the dev team has accepted the drawback of lowering the barrier to cheating 13:28 IhrFussel The only way would be editing files manually (like I did) ... but server owners who are not very tech savvy likely won't do that 13:28 Shara mod writers, especially the devs with MTG, just tend to want to rush ahead and play with new features. They don't generally support servers very well at such times 13:29 Shara sfan5: It's not the dev team that has to face the consequences 13:29 lisac IhrFussel, They just need to update creative mod. 13:29 sfan5 mtg should probably have a stable branch with backports 13:29 Jordach tenplus1, grab the latest x64 or x86 build from sfan5 13:29 Shara Yes, MTG really should 13:29 sfan5 Jordach: (x86 is actually broken since mingw is making a mess again >_>) 13:30 tenplus1 Jordach: unless it runs standalone inside a folder I cannot run it alongside stable 0.4.16 and keep mods working properly 13:30 Shara I would love, really love, to move both my servers back to using MTG, but it's just not possible as things are 13:30 shivajiva can you stop using DRM as an excuse for the request for prediction/reconciliation of events to stop hacking. Are you saying nothing else is possible and we have to live with what we currently have? 13:30 Jordach tenplus1, sfan5's builds do that 13:30 Jordach it's windows :^) 13:30 IhrFussel lisac, creative alone *could* be compatible with 0.4.16 ... I'm not sure 13:30 * tenplus1 uses linux 13:30 lisac IhrFussel, Craigs was fixed by updating the creative mod. 13:30 lisac Client: HexChat 2.12.4 • OS: Ubuntu "artful" 17.10 • CPU: AMD A8-7600 Radeon R7, 10 Compute Cores 4C+6G (3.09GHz) • Memory: Physical: 6.6 GiB Total (2.7 GiB Free) Swap: 7.9 GiB Total (7.9 GiB Free) • Storage: 754.0 GB / 1.1 TB (335.6 GB Free) • VGA: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Kaveri [Radeon R7 Graphics] @ Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Family 15h • Uptime: 1d 19h 42m 1s 13:30 jas_ Shara: server tend to prefer stable environments that don't change except to fix bugs and, maybe show new features that are proven stable, yes? i don't believe that's what the dev branch is tho. then again the master branch is the dev branch but nevermind that lol 13:30 tenplus1 hi jas 13:30 sfan5 shivajiva: it's not an excuse. what i have in mind here is e.g. chat, how do you differ between what someone typed and something sent by csm? you can't 13:30 * lisac doesn't miss a chance to run sysinfo 13:31 jas_ hello 13:31 sfan5 minetest will still check what the client said it did 13:31 sfan5 and it always did that 13:31 jas_ tenplus1 :^) 13:31 sfan5 if a csm mod allows duplicating from items / taking from chests that's a bug in minetest_game and it should definitely be fixed 13:31 Shara jas_: problem is compatibility breaks, then stable version isn't maintained 13:32 lisac tenplus1, Can I get a 10 minute 'Use CSM' pass on Xanadu? I wanna try to see if it's possible to open locked chests. 13:32 Shara I believe current stable of a mod should always be maintained with bug fixes (especially MTG) up until the engine updates to a new stable version 13:32 lisac I'll of course pm you the results. 13:32 jas_ compat doesn't break in "stable", that's opposite of its definition 13:32 tenplus1 lisac: ok, use the one's outside the arena... 13:32 Shara jas_: current dev breaks from stable 13:32 jas_ if you want a 0.4.16 server you get an 0.4.16 server haha sorry, i digress 13:32 lisac okay, thanks 13:32 lisac Can someone contact the admins of "*** Miners World ***' 13:33 Shara It's recommended NOT to run 0.5 servers currently, yet MTG maints fixes only for 0.5 13:33 lisac they are fully affected. 13:33 Shara See the problem? 13:33 Jordach >runs 0.5.x server as development testing and feedback 13:33 Jordach uwotm87 13:33 Shara lisac: Maybe don't reveal that in public where everyone can now go abuse it? 13:33 Krock you can look at any data sent by the server. but this doesn't mean that locked chests can be plundered 13:34 lisac Shara, I sent him a PM yesterday 13:35 lisac and only three people have the mod. 13:35 Shara Pretty sure anyone can get it though 13:35 lisac only if they write their own. 13:35 sfan5 Shara: https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1948 13:35 * Krock gets interested 13:35 lisac I won't tell everyone about the affected servers, if you think that's best. 13:36 sfan5 another question that arises is whether the engine urgently needs any fixes so a backports branch would have to be created too 13:36 Shara sfan5: thank you 13:37 Shara I thought 0.4.17 would address that? 13:37 Krock sfan5, why not apply them to stable-0.4 ? It'll still be stable, as the commits have been tested/used a lot already 13:37 sfan5 Krock: if you're a distro pulling from stable-0.4 you don't want some sort of working state between .16 and .17, you want the stable version which is .16 13:38 Krock i.e. constant HEAD? 13:38 sfan5 separating these doesn't really hurt 13:38 sfan5 yea 13:38 Krock okay, I see 13:42 shivajiva sfan5: sounds like you are asking me to solve a conundrum of dev adding the holes in the first place... 13:42 sfan5 ? 13:42 Krock will check whether this chest inspector thingy is really something to worry about 13:43 shivajiva e.g. chat, how do you differ between what someone typed and something sent by csm? you can't 13:43 sfan5 oh yea, this wouldn't exist if csm wasn't added ofc 13:43 sfan5 pretty much the only way to address your concerns would be to remove CSM again 13:44 shivajiva might be easier to fix though :) 13:44 shivajiva my point is we had holes, now we have more 13:50 shivajiva I just don't understand why more and more holes are added whilst people turn my concerns into 'he wants DRM' so they can ignore or accept the holes 13:51 jas_ there's probably a way to have control over connecting clients, and for all parties to be able to modify their programs within the server rules. 13:52 Shara My issue: 13:52 Shara CSM doesn't change single player experience. Since the player must run the mod regardless of what kind of mod it is 13:52 jas_ csm could change single player experience. 13:52 Shara This tells us CSM is just about servers. 13:52 jas_ it's not impossible at all 13:52 Shara jas_: You miss the point. may as well be added like a server mod then 13:53 Shara Nothing is saved by it being CSM 13:53 jas_ i may indeed 13:53 jas_ but about that, you could have a singleplayer server! 13:53 jas_ haha 13:53 Shara Okay, ignoring you since you are just trying to make jokes of it ;) 13:53 Shara But this means CSM is just about servers. 13:54 Shara Yet the devs decide it's okay to accept the risks... on behalf of the server owners who must live with them 13:54 sfan5 in it's current state csm is supposed to enhance multiplayer experience without the user and server owner agreeing on what is beneficial 13:54 Shara Yet here you see the server owners aren't exactly happy with this 13:54 Shara sfan5: But why should people be able to do what they like with my server? 13:54 Shara I choose to run and pay for that server, so shouldn't I have the right to determine what the user experience is? 13:54 sfan5 that's a good question 13:55 jas_ totally valid concern 13:55 jas_ but minetest is an engine, and a server, and a client, and a game 13:55 Shara As a server owner, CSM is doing me no favours and has given me a bunch of problems 13:55 sfan5 it all depends on how far that goes 13:55 jas_ so there's got to be a balance struck somewhere 13:55 sfan5 should the server owner be able to forbid me to change the font? 13:55 Shara sfan5: End of the day, if I am providing a poor experience, I won't get players anyway 13:56 Shara Both my servers are p[retty busy, so that should tell you I have some clue what I am doing 13:56 sfan5 in its current state csm does go a little far, there's no denying that 13:56 Shara I don't mind a player changing their own font, as viewed by them 13:56 Shara I mind if they change it so I see it and other players see it 13:56 Shara I should be the one deciding how players affect other people's experience of my server 13:56 jas_ isn't it a matter of enabling the server the ability the mandate what the csm can get away with? i had thought this was what flavours was about (show's what i know) 13:57 Shara jas_: I'd thought the same until today 13:57 jas_ not the case, eh? 13:57 jas_ sorry, i know you're not in the mood for jokes 13:57 sfan5 i honestly don't know what's so surprising about the fact that you can't force the client to do what you want 13:58 Shara sfan5: Don't twist my words please. The client can do whatever it wants - if it doesn't in turn affect the server 13:58 jas_ if a player strays far enough away from the server's purpose, it becomes painful 13:58 Shara Client wants it's own font/colours/music/textures/player appearance? - carry on 13:58 jas_ and self-deprecating? i like that one, heh ok now i'm saying g'night 13:58 sfan5 wasn't refering to what you said, just in general 13:59 Shara I thought CSM was meant to take the load off servers, but it's not doing that 13:59 Shara Instead it's making us more vulnerable to things that don't get quick fixes and sometimes can't be fixed at all 14:00 sfan5 csm won't be able to take any load off servers until mod sending is implemented 14:00 Shara And when will that be? 14:00 sfan5 dunno 14:00 Shara So why was CSM added to begin with? 14:00 Shara It's clearly not ready, and there is currently not enough value from it to offset the problems 14:00 sfan5 why was it added just before a release while it wasn't really ready? i have no idea 14:01 Shara But we can't expect anything to be done to address this? 14:01 sfan5 the question is what you are expecting to be done 14:02 Shara I'm not the developer, and don't understand the codebase half as well yet as I'd probably need to in order to identify options 14:02 Shara But as much as I know wanting it doesn't make it happen, I want there to be some answer 14:04 Shara I don't think any of the server owner want to fight the devs on this. I certainly prefer trying to work with you on solutions. But it doesn't change that the devs choose to accept the risk, so this is actually on the devs to address. 14:05 sfan5 the problem remains that there isn't much you can do about this 14:06 sfan5 frustration about item duplication & cheats is warranted, but this is not the fault of CSM, it merely exposed these issues 14:06 sfan5 (not implying that you've said so) 14:07 Shara So how can we make sure that any new issues found are easier to deal with quickly? 14:08 Shara A stable branch of MTG will help, but is there anything else you can think of? 14:08 sfan5 actually do the backport thing instead of ignoring the issue 14:08 sfan5 anything else? no 14:11 Shara I'd be happy to see the backport and MTG running a stable version for now at least 14:12 * Fixer runs 1.4.7 FTB Ultimate and sips water while observing the chat 14:12 Shara Though with MTG at least, I'm concerned we'll just see the "not enough devs" excuse :) 14:14 Fixer WILL???? 14:14 Fixer wtf 14:14 Fixer it is not enough like since 2010 14:14 Fixer especially for MTG, situation there is critical 14:15 Shara Fixer: we're just talking about bug fixes 14:15 * Fixer goes back to minetest clone 14:21 Calinou shivajiva: server-side physics are not viable for Minecraft-likes because of the lag that occurs during map generation and other intensive tasks 14:21 Calinou the only way to proceed is verified client-side physics 14:22 Shara Surely whether lag from one thing removes the posibility of other checks is down to what any individual server can handle and how busy it is? 14:22 Shara (om other words, it could be optional for those who can make use of it and who need it, since not every server gets the same problems) 14:22 Shara in* 14:27 shivajiva Calinou: The implementation is beyond me but the idea we need validation has to be taken seriously or this is just a continuation of the 'joke' that celeron55 started imo 14:28 Calinou Shara: indeed, the server-side checks could be turned off easily if needed 14:28 Shara For example, I probably wouldn't enable them on my creative server, but on my survival I'd definitely be interested in seeing if the server could handle it 14:29 Calinou indeed 14:29 Calinou on creative, you don't care about movement cheats, usually :P 14:29 Shara Survivals are also generally the servers that suffer a bit less from mapgen lag, because on creative it's normal to hand out fly and fast, so players can generate map much more quickly, while on survival the focus is usually on slower progression 14:30 Shara On a server like shivajiva's old one, where players giving themself fly can completely break how the game works, there wasn't even much map to generate 14:39 Calinou the map can be pregenerated if you have spare resources :P 14:39 rubenwardy Calinou, there shouldn't be any lag from mapgen 14:39 Calinou you could pregenerate the areas the players are likely to venture into 14:39 rubenwardy > multithreading 14:39 Calinou on my server, -2048..2048 is pregenerated between -128 and 128, IIRC 14:39 Calinou I use num_emerge_threads = 2 14:40 Calinou https://gist.github.com/Calinou/683cb0748efe867be6e18f86f206a6b7 14:44 rubenwardy I personally think that the chest issues is a plus in CSM's column 14:44 rubenwardy it exposed vulnerabilities which are easily fixable 14:44 rubenwardy and as for back ports, I think we should do this generally 14:44 rubenwardy it's good for quality control 14:45 Shara A big part of the issue is how things are handled once they are found. If this is handled better, it will go a long way to helping. 14:46 rubenwardy CSM shouldn't have been a part of 0.4.16 14:48 rubenwardy I'm also very very sceptical about the networking PR 14:48 Shara There does seem to be a trend for big things to get merged without the consequences really being understood. 14:51 rubenwardy CSM for me should only be for adding low-latency audio-visual modifications. For example, drawing to a formspec in a canvas sort of way. Prediction of cart animations 14:51 rubenwardy not for this WoW client provided bullshit 14:51 Shara Agreed. 15:06 Jordach TIL jeija works for the university of stuttgart 15:07 Jordach https://github.com/physcip/physdash 15:07 Jordach extra proof 15:07 Jordach https://github.com/physcip 15:09 Calinou I wonder if my university has a GitHub organization 15:10 Calinou one of my teachers has some GitHub presence, I know that 15:10 Calinou (we have to use one of his softwares for an ssignment :P) 15:10 Calinou assignment* 15:11 rubenwardy https://github.com/cssbristol 15:22 Fixer i was surprised to see so much big mc mods that are open source 15:22 Fixer https://github.com/agaricusb/ForgeMod/wiki/List-of-Open-Source-Forge-Mods 15:24 sfan5 hmm my uni doesn't seem to have a github page 15:24 sfan5 just individual labs 15:24 sfan5 (a few of them) 15:24 Fixer very hip uni 15:26 Roger9 Spontaneous. 15:45 IhrFussel rubenwardy, "there shouldn't be any lag from mapgen" well that fully depends on the mods the server uses and my server even lags when LOADING mapblocks not just when generating (which is cause by lots of IO wait which I supposedly cannot fix without getting a more expensive dedi with SSD) 15:46 rubenwardy IhrFussel, I was talking idealistically 15:46 rubenwardy also, Lua mapgens suck 15:46 rubenwardy we really need to somehow have a separate Lua thread for mapgening, not sure if that's possible 15:47 IhrFussel I don't use any Lua mapgens...I use zero register_on_generated() callbacks and I have no clue why my machine suddenly cannot handle the amount of mapblocks to load/save without lag anymore...it was fine a few months back...maybe too much meta? 15:48 rubenwardy huh 15:48 rubenwardy it's something I'd like to investigate 15:48 rubenwardy but I have to prioritise uni over Minetest rn 15:49 IhrFussel I already tested with inotifywait and other tools...the lags definitely happen at map.sqlite ACCESS and MODIFY ... and I thought it was one of my mods...I investigated the wrong element for a long time 15:50 rubenwardy ideally sqlite should be accessed on a separate thread to the server thread, so should not block things 15:50 rubenwardy well, except map loading 15:50 rubenwardy however if the server thread is using I/O then you'll have problems 15:51 IhrFussel iotop barely displays Server thread...it's Emerge-0 with an IO of 30-90% 15:53 IhrFussel Right now Emerge-0 is not listed which means nobody moves right now...max_lag 0.6 ... now I'll move a bit 15:54 IhrFussel And max_lag jumped to 1.1 ... and that's still nothing... it can get to 3 secs 15:55 IhrFussel Which explains why my server with 10 players sometimes has 0.5 secs max_lag (cause nobody is extensively loading mapblocks) an other times it shows 2.5 secs with 3 players 15:57 IhrFussel When only 1 player walks with normal speed Emerge-0 only has an IO of 5% which means no lag ... problem is when players use fast or drive in cars or in carts etc 15:59 IhrFussel Maybe enabling more map threads could help, but I think that is only for generating not loading 16:05 Roger9 Minetest seems to lag a lot more for me now that I've switched to Debian 9. I'm using the AppImage version. 16:24 IhrFussel Here some values I took in the last 5 minutes https://pastebin.com/9NsZRcqS 16:25 IhrFussel It's just the IO wait % and thread name but you can clearly see Emerge-0 is the culprit 17:01 IhrFussel Is Server thread IO wait basically just io.open calls from lua? 17:24 Megaf sofar: There has been lots of discussion about that 17:24 Megaf on IRC at lease 17:24 Megaf maybe on GitHub too 17:57 tenplus1 hi folks 17:57 benrob0329 Hi tenplus1 17:57 tenplus1 VanessaE: you have a doppleganger on Xanadu :P am assuming is isnt you 17:57 tenplus1 hi benrob :) 17:58 Krock wb tenplus1 17:58 tenplus1 thx Krock 17:58 Megaf Hi tenplus1 17:58 tenplus1 hi Megaf 17:59 benrob0329 Something I would like to note real quick (towards everyone contributing to MTG) is that, whatever is added needs to be for the goal of making it more fun. (In my honest, very strong opinion anyways) 18:00 benrob0329 If it is indeed a game, then games are supposed to be fun, then the goal of MTG is to be fun. 18:00 tenplus1 agree'd 18:00 Shara I was looking at MTG contributions earlier, and found myself honestly wondering how I rank as #25 with so few commits there 18:00 Shara It shows how few people feel able to contribute. 18:00 Shara And it's certainly not because people can't write mods. 18:01 jas_ i thought mtg was a base for other sub-games all this time lol 18:01 rubenwardy it's because anything to do with MTG has massive bolitics attached 18:01 benrob0329 If your not making a game to be fun, then why the hell are you making it? Things should not exist for the sake of existing, everything should gave purpose, and everything should add to the gane 18:01 jas_ but yes i agree mtg should be fun 18:01 Shara jas_: I thought that way back as well, but I was told I was wrong. 18:01 benrob0329 Minetest GAME 18:01 jas_ ok 18:02 benrob0329 If its not supposed to be fun, then please remove Game. 18:02 Shara Personally I'm just going to make my own game, because I begin to believe MTG can't be saved. 18:02 Shara I'd like to be proved wrong. 18:02 rubenwardy I think that Minetest Game should become a full game whilst being modular enough that you can rip things out to make new subgames 18:02 Shara I've even offered to try and help with MTG more, but that doesn't seem to go anyway because no one seems to know if things are wanted or not. 18:02 benrob0329 rubenwardy: exactly 18:02 Shara anywhere* 18:02 rubenwardy so what exactly do we need? 18:03 Shara More people working on it 18:03 rubenwardy what kind of game should MTG become? 18:03 tenplus1 agree'd... it would be great if the default mods could be disabled and replaced with user/server's own 18:03 rubenwardy Shara, working on what? 18:03 benrob0329 rubenwardy: To be fun 18:03 jas_ whatever it is, it's got to be funky 18:03 rubenwardy urgh 18:03 Shara rubenwardy: It's the devs' place to decide the direction of it. 18:03 rubenwardy we need more underground variety and mobs 18:03 rubenwardy Shara, the community should have input 18:04 Shara I opened an issue to see if teleportation would be wanted... only paramat has given any input 18:04 jas_ i think i mentioned sethome and bed's respawn 18:04 benrob0329 Not to have an extensive and fleshed out story, not to have more blocks or wires or whatever the heck you can think of as filler 18:04 Shara So I'm still in the position that I'd probably be wasting my time if I try and work on something 18:04 benrob0329 It need purpose 18:05 benrob0329 Why am I playing this thing, if there is nothing to strive for 18:05 tenplus1 a purpose or story would be nice to strive towards 18:05 Shara Only thing I know for sure is it should be modular. As an ideal, it should be a complete singleplayer experience, but it should stay easy enough to customise if you want to add mods 18:05 rubenwardy I don't see teleportation as that big a issue personally 18:06 Shara rubenwardy: me neither, but it's something I could have done, so I was willing to offer 18:06 Shara But if the MTG devs don't care to reply, I don't care to code anything 18:06 benrob0329 I can get diamond tools in less than a half hour, dungeons and mese just exist for no reason, and there is no big goal your journey leads you to 18:06 Shara A few people suggested my handholds mod for inclusions, but again the devs can't seem to decide if they want it 18:07 Shara It always seems to come down to the devs not knowing what they want 18:07 benrob0329 Why am I getting bronze tools if diamond is ten minutes away? 18:07 Shara So how can we contribute? 18:07 rubenwardy benrob0329, progress is something we need more of, but how do we obtain that? 18:07 Shara Decide what is wanted 18:08 benrob0329 Step 1: find something that lacks substance 18:08 benrob0329 Step 2: add substance that makes sense with the rest of it 18:08 Shara LazyJ suggested adding fishing a while back. Not of huge interest to me, but it would give content and something to do. 18:09 tenplus1 fishing would be fun, and a good use for string 18:09 rubenwardy also: https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/projects/1 18:09 rubenwardy yeah, I'd approve fishing 18:09 Shara rubenwardy: and actually, I'm just going to change my mind and say teleportation is an issue 18:09 benrob0329 Giving mere a reason to exist would be good 18:09 Shara You can set one single point to teleport back to in MTG, with no rationale behind it either 18:09 benrob0329 *mese 18:10 Shara What if a player wants an underground base and one on a mountain? 18:10 rubenwardy it's not near the top of the biggest issues we have 18:10 tenplus1 maybe having the odd meteor crater appear on the map would be interesting, to provide something rare 18:10 rubenwardy I like that 18:10 rubenwardy make Space Swords 18:10 Shara rubenwardy: no, but when issues involve "it's not fun/interesting", adding content, especially that which improves playability, helps 18:11 rubenwardy https://i.imgur.com/FczEV.jpg 18:11 jas_ if you make it X for Player A, player B will want Y. lol! 18:11 tenplus1 I really like the binoculars for zoom and map for hud map, those are good items 18:11 benrob0329 Putting lore and the remains of a slimsation 18:11 tenplus1 build a story on MESE and it's appearance in the world... 18:12 benrob0329 Putting lore and the remains of a civilization in dungeons would be a neat idea 18:12 benrob0329 I've had a backstory in my head for years now 18:12 tenplus1 do tell ? 18:13 jas_ minetest_game has to be generic enough so that others can use it as a base for their own games 18:13 Shara rubenwardy: also why is adding bows a thing on the roadmap when mobs are not? Adding mroe weapons without mobs seems quite silly really. 18:13 jas_ because if you make minetest_game in "A Real Game" then a new base stock sub-game will need to be made 18:14 rubenwardy Shara, mobs are on the roadmap 18:14 tenplus1 mt_game is already a raw base, other than carts/boats there's nothing really fantastic added 18:14 Shara Opps, missed it :D 18:14 rubenwardy mobs are required before bows 18:14 jas_ it has tons of stuff 18:14 jas_ minetest_game is chalk full of content 18:14 jas_ chock full :) 18:14 Shara No seperate base game is needed as long as things are modular 18:14 tenplus1 lol, default content... things we need to simple run a world... but nothing like portals or mobs etc 18:15 Shara Don't want mobs? - delete that directory, done. 18:15 tenplus1 or disable the mod 18:15 Shara well, you can't from the client 18:15 tenplus1 the mob tab should allow you to disable ANY mod including built in 18:15 Shara should, but doesn't 18:16 tenplus1 fors ervers and singpleplayer 18:16 Shara this roadmap is also very limited. 18:16 Shara surely there is more than this desired? 18:16 benrob0329 Orkkis are the aliens that used mese to power their civilization, but that civilization fell leaving the remains as dungeons. Remnants of the Mese can be found underground, and its strange properties are still being explored to this day. 18:16 benrob0329 Dungeon Masters were created by the Orkkis to mine and protect the remaining strongholds they still possessed, and both roam the underground hoping one day to rebuild their once great civilization. 18:16 tenplus1 e.g. Farming Redo replaces built in farming, would be nice to disable built-in properly and use what I select instead of forcing an override 18:16 rubenwardy there is, Shara, but everything else is too controversial for the minimal game MTG is 18:18 rubenwardy benrob0329, I like that 18:18 benrob0329 Much of the lore could be implied without books or letters, and it fits with what we have alreadys from c55 18:18 jas_ fwiw, i liked the idea of building minimal up to show all content and features of the engine, and minetest_game to be a real game 18:18 Shara rubenwardy: so you are basically saying there is very little to do with MTG until it's as complete sa it's going to be in terms of content and things to do 18:18 jas_ but i never got to use minimal, because i couldn't "play" it like i can play stock minetest_game 18:19 rubenwardy ? 18:19 jas_ i've been a lot of hours into stock minetest_game too. what's not enjoyable about digging thousands of nodes down? 18:19 jas_ haha i kid 18:19 Shara Well that's what the result is, if everything else is too controversial 18:19 * tenplus1 has done just that :D 18:19 rubenwardy I only added things to the roadmap if they were agreed upon 18:19 jas_ but seriously i've dug a lot of nodes 18:19 jas_ as i'm sure you all have, i just haven't placed so many. minetest_game, to me, is still fun 18:19 Shara But if I can't get dev replies on issues because you don't view my ideas as important enough, I give up. 18:20 benrob0329 jas_: we all have, thats all there is to do half the time 18:20 rubenwardy Shara, the issue is I don't know what's best for teleportation 18:20 rubenwardy bookmarks / travel nets are too cheap 18:20 tenplus1 I'd like more ores to be added to make caves more interesting, but paramat has added underground deco so that's awesome 18:20 Shara Have you read the topic? 18:21 Shara THat is the exact kind of information I was trying to get from devs 18:22 Shara The whole reason I wanted the possibility of concept approvals was so people can bring things up for discussion and try to get the concept approved, but if the devs don't respond it goes nowhere 18:22 tenplus1 that's what this channel is suppose to be for... 18:23 jas_ minetest_game as a base sub-game is also good for educational purposes 18:23 tenplus1 central hub for admin, modders, devs, players to talk it out 18:23 Fixer benrob0329: Dungeon Masters (aka pedobears) main purpose was to create flying mountains (the way they fired caused that) 18:23 Shara Yup, but better to put issues like this on github too since more people check there, and it gives a more easily accessible record 18:23 jas_ i like the idea of minetest distributing with three sub-games: minimal, minetest_game, minetest_real_game 18:24 benrob0329 I dont 18:24 benrob0329 More to maintain 18:24 tenplus1 having a [game] tab on the menu screen to view available games, download/install and use would be awesome... we NEED 'dis 18:24 benrob0329 Fixer: that doesnt make as much sense though, they dont spawn above ground 18:24 Shara The devs have already said there aren't enough devs for MTG 18:24 rubenwardy commented, Shara 18:25 Shara Thank you 18:26 tenplus1 which is why we need the tab on menu to download user based games and advantures etc 18:27 jas_ i like sofar's warps mod, but don't believe it's appropriate for minetest_game. didn't the addition of the home mod cause a stir? 18:27 jas_ i mean, that's why i brought up respawn in beds mod, and sethome.go/get 18:27 jas_ /set 18:27 jas_ those could be exploited somehow, like in a mese liquid potion vessel 18:27 jas_ sethome.go(mese) 18:28 Shara why'd they make a stir? 18:28 tenplus1 that's why I made the sethome functions global so they could be used like that 18:28 jas_ because it's cheating! 18:28 Shara Well there's no rationale behind it 18:28 Shara No in game reason for it to work 18:28 jas_ i believe that could be... "remedied" 18:28 tenplus1 it's up to modders to add the functionality... inv+ and home tab uses it 18:28 jas_ ha ha ha 18:29 tenplus1 the /home and /sethome commands use them :D 18:29 jas_ and the buttons on dcbl craft grid 18:29 Shara Most games with large maps have some kind of teleportation or fast travel options 18:30 Shara mostly because walking long distances over and over again after you did that the first time gets boring 18:30 jas_ so i made these stats using attributes, then found some like hp_max i wanted in a table for some reason, then looked at it and realized i'm storing data two ways *scratches head* 18:30 jas_ not all singleplayer maps get all that big, and not all players play online. 18:32 jas_ what i think would be most helpful, is a book mark system 18:32 jas_ i _loathe_ pressing f5 18:32 tenplus1 ehehe 18:32 tenplus1 like the map tags we have in certain mods 18:32 tenplus1 brb 18:32 jas_ if there was a way a player could "record" his actions in a "journal" say 18:33 jas_ (coordinates, death places, "teleporation" locations) 18:33 rubenwardy reopened https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/853 -- Hunger 18:33 rubenwardy paramat, you'll want to read the history 18:33 benrob0329 What would be nice is if carts weren't laggy, and if that worked when out of range (railnet) 18:33 rubenwardy s/history/logs/g 18:33 jas_ don't they work better now? 18:33 rubenwardy !mod railnet 18:33 ShadowBot rubenwardy: 18:33 jas_ the carts, i mean 18:33 Megaf jas_: what doest warp mod do? 18:33 jas_ it warps 18:34 rubenwardy !mod warp potions 18:34 ShadowBot rubenwardy: 18:34 jas_ carts work better now i thought. perhaps due to loading map in view, and other changes? anyway 18:34 rubenwardy huh 18:34 rubenwardy !mod asnasa 18:34 ShadowBot rubenwardy: 18:34 jas_ warps mod by sofar is a mesh node 18:34 rubenwardy ShadowBot, go home, you're drunk 18:34 jas_ a pretty one, he made, that you punch and have to stand still for five seconds 18:34 jas_ after which it teleports you to a predefined location 18:35 rubenwardy sfan5, please may we have MinetestBot here and kick ShadowBot? 18:35 rubenwardy MTB is infinitely more helpful 18:35 * benrob0329 watches Minetest Game 18:35 sfan5 heh 18:35 Shara This was my attempt at a teleport mod: https://github.com/Ezhh/warp_potions 18:35 jas_ i've made modifications here: https://github.com/jastevenson303/warps/tree/dcbl and his is https://github.com/minetest-mods/warps 18:35 rubenwardy also, afk 18:35 Shara Wanted to make sure it had per use costs and couldn't be abused on a survival server 18:36 benrob0329 Playing Minecraft taught me something, mods need to be made because the game is so good, not because the game is so bad. 18:36 benrob0329 The day we accomplish that, we have made a good game. 18:37 jas_ very nice shara 18:37 jas_ i've always really appreciated the vessels mod 18:38 Shara I had a lot of problems on my server due to other teleport mods I tried. 18:38 jas_ i've used it somewhat, but am eager to see it used 18:38 jas_ i'd say adapt it to match the vessels mod, and try to merge it _there_ 18:38 jas_ minetest_game/mods/vessels 18:38 Shara For example, players using teleports to get through the walls of houses and kill the players inside 18:38 jas_ perhaps put the functionality into sethome, or default, or a new namespace. 18:38 Shara Players going straight to really low depths for the best mining 18:38 jas_ i'd like to see sethome renamed and merged with beds 18:38 jas_ (the respawn function of beds) 18:39 Shara Players not needing to explore since they could just go anywhere 18:39 Shara And so on 18:39 jas_ well i'm just brainstorming 18:39 jas_ i go down for the sake of it, and because caverealms 18:39 Shara Well, it's why I opened that issue for MTG. I doubt warp_potions would be suitable as is, and maybe potions aren't even wanted, but I think it covers most of the basic requirements for use 18:39 jas_ they're really massive in v7, i can't tell or remember if they're bigger than their v6 counterparts 18:40 Shara Depends which version of caverealms you use 18:40 jas_ you did the -lite fork with z... 18:40 jas_ zeno 18:40 Shara Yup 18:40 jas_ iirc? 18:40 Shara https://github.com/Ezhh/caverealms_lite 18:40 jas_ yes, i'm using facedeer's subterrane mod with his caverealm fork 18:40 jas_ i found that first, and some days after saw yours and his 18:40 jas_ i'd already generated, and didn't want to reset :) 18:40 Shara -lite uses natural mapgen instead of its own mapgen, and adds a bunch of new content too 18:41 jas_ i might pick at it, i mean take a look at it some time 18:41 tenplus1 :P lite is faster generating 18:41 jas_ i'm sure 18:41 Shara Feel free, and PR or issues please if you find any problems :P) 18:41 Shara :P* 18:41 jas_ thank you, i have been meaning to check it out 18:41 jas_ that's one of the few mods i didn't touch 18:41 Shara -lite also has compatibility with ethereal worked in 18:42 jas_ i'm using v7, because it's the default, and i keep seeing paramat refer to it as the "old" mapgen haha 18:42 jas_ and i'm like, dang it was just made default 18:42 jas_ i tried valleys before with fun_caves, that's a nice mapgen. 18:42 Shara So when you run both mods, you get the ethereal mushroom textures on the underground mushrooms (they are much nicer) and improvements to ethereal's fishing system and so on 18:43 tenplus1 ooh, metal rod with glowy worm :) me likey... 18:43 Shara I like valleys a lot (CRL was actually made with valleys as the intended mapgen) 18:43 Shara But then they added the giant caves to other mapgens as well 18:44 Shara So I think it works quite well for most mapgens now 18:46 jas_ i haven't tried that new one, i can't remember its name. carp something haha 18:46 jas_ but i really like the default stuff 18:46 jas_ i always sort of regret modding 18:46 benrob0329 Perhaps the Dungeon Masters started a secret society against the old Orkki masters, building temples deep underground with hidden vats of knowledge. 18:46 Shara carpathian? 18:47 tenplus1 underground dungeons/fortress'/temples would be great 18:47 Shara Better dungeons would be nice 18:47 benrob0329 tenplus1: we dont have a purpose for the ones we do have 18:47 Shara That's something I would like in the game I'm thinking of making 18:47 CWz So a nazi joined my server 18:48 Shara I want dungeons with content 18:48 benrob0329 Some small loot is all we get right now I think 18:48 tenplus1 yeah, loot chests and crystal lanterns etc 18:48 benrob0329 I want dungeons that tell a story 18:48 jas_ benrob0329: i like your stories so far, put 'em on a default:sign :D 18:48 tenplus1 scratches down the wall and blood spatter...... "The Saw" 18:48 jas_ i'd chuckle if i found that in a dungeon 18:48 Shara I'm indifferent to building stories into MTG itself 18:49 Shara Kind of boring if every server has the same story? 18:49 jas_ and of course there'd be no orkki (oerkki?) or dungeon master mobs, just the sign 18:49 benrob0329 Shara: servers hardly have the same game 18:49 jas_ well let's say it's based on a text file 18:49 jas_ easily translatable, and you could change the defaults of course 18:49 jas_ but yeah, i like the stories 18:50 jas_ reminds me of the really long backstories included with doom wads for some reason 18:50 benrob0329 And if the story is implied, and only lore based, that makes it easy to add extra layers per server 18:50 tenplus1 was gonna change ethereal so it takes over the floatlands biome 1000 high in the sky and have a portal to get there 18:50 benrob0329 No text means no translation :-) 18:50 Shara tenplus1: do it! 18:51 tenplus1 ehehe... that way we could keep original biomes and just have ethereal in the sky 18:51 benrob0329 I think dungeons should be rarer though 18:51 benrob0329 Finding them should be exciting, with only a few per world 18:52 Shara tenplus1: noooo... original biomes = so boring 18:52 benrob0329 Each telling more story the last 18:52 benrob0329 No writing, only atmosphere and ruins. 18:53 Shara just feels like something better left for seperate mods to me 18:53 Roger9 'Ello. 18:53 tenplus1 hi roger 18:53 benrob0329 Shara: that's the problem 18:53 Shara I'm not against a world having it's own lore (far from it), but not sure if MTG is the place 18:53 Shara It's not very special if it's the same everywhere 18:53 benrob0329 Everyone says its better for mods to deal with basic things of a game 18:54 benrob0329 MODS DON'T FIX THE GAME 18:54 Shara No, a game should deal with basic things of a game, but storyline and plot elements are not basic things 18:54 benrob0329 No, they are fundamental things. 18:54 Shara No, they really are not. They are a layer on the very top of everything else that could be dropped into multiple different base games 18:54 benrob0329 They drive the game (and player) foreword 18:55 benrob0329 Shara: you clearly haven't played many good story driven games, because the story is not just dropped in 18:55 benrob0329 No offence, but story isnt just dropped in 18:56 Shara Considering I was a developer on a game specifically work on this part of that game... 18:56 Shara MTG is not going to be a story based game 18:56 tenplus1 MESE story line... 18:56 benrob0329 "Lets leave the reason anything exists to mods" 18:57 Shara A story would fit on top of the game at best instead of being the core purpose of it 18:57 Shara Lol ten 18:57 benrob0329 Seems legit 18:57 Shara "Let's insult the reasoning of people who disagree with us" 18:57 Shara "And assume they have no experience at all" 18:58 tenplus1 how about... "humans destroyed the earth and themselves and aliens took pity on them and healed the lands and plopped what humans/players it could back so they could begin anew"... would explain the mese deposits they used to heal the earth as mystical crystal 18:58 benrob0329 "Lets repeat the exact problem nothing gets added to MTG" 18:58 Shara Or we could decide mese is a waste product that initially appears benificial but is in fact slowly warping the land and making it more dangerous. 18:59 benrob0329 s/problem/reason 18:59 tenplus1 ooh, nice spin shara 18:59 Shara benrob0329: discuss ideas, but don't insult my knowledge. 19:00 benrob0329 Sorry, but its infuriating to hear "leave that to mods" 19:00 Shara I am not automatically wrong just because I don't agree with you. But you plunged in with the all caps and assumptions about what I know. 19:00 Shara Sorry. I most regards I agree with that frustration, but you can't go too far the other way and use it to add anything and everything. 19:01 Shara In* 19:01 benrob0329 Clearly not, but story (even if not the main focus of the game) is not secondary to customizability 19:02 IhrFussel server_unload_unused_data_timeout << if I set this value high wouldn't that mean the server accesses the DB less and takes mapblocks from RAM if already loaded? 19:02 benrob0329 Arguing that something should be removed, when it wouldn't hurt servers, and when that thing could be removed, is silly. 19:02 Shara benrob0329: I even have a storyline based game server I have been working on for some time. You don't need to include the plotline in MTG itself. 19:02 benrob0329 Shara: then why does anything exist in MTG, and why play vanilla? 19:02 Shara In fact, including it like that could be pretty damaging and could limit what you can do with it. 19:03 Shara Example: relying on players to find dungeons in some specific order 19:03 benrob0329 No! Your thinking about it all wrong 19:03 Shara I'll leave you to submit a PR then. 19:03 Shara Since I obviously don't know anything. 19:03 benrob0329 You make the story sit in the background, it doesnt limit the player it makes exploring more exciting 19:03 benrob0329 I didn't say that 19:04 Shara Mak ea PR then 19:04 Shara Make* 19:04 benrob0329 Your thinking that I want MTG to be a story driven game (which might not be hard to think based kn my earlier comments, which I apologize for) 19:04 Shara I am not a dev and have no say after all. 19:05 benrob0329 Which is not what I'm saying, I'm saying that a lore can be added in game, which makes the game more fun and give purpose to what exists 19:06 benrob0329 Its still a sandbox, the player is still free to do whatever they want, and servers can still add or remove things from it 19:06 Shara Make a PR then? 19:06 Shara Or open an issue. 19:06 * tenplus1 votes for the story to create an ice farm to open an ice cream shop and be the best in the business 19:06 benrob0329 Make a lot of PRs, then 19:06 paramat let me read logs and catch up =) 19:06 tenplus1 hi paramat 19:07 Shara benrob0329: All caps, assumptions, and now told I'm thinking about it wrong. All I said was that I'm indifferent to it, and in my opinion it should be a seperate mod. I don't think I deserved that reaction from you, and don't really want you to try to convince me. 19:08 Shara It's the devs you need to convince anyway. 19:09 CWz VanessaE, is you around? 19:09 benrob0329 Shara: Sorry, I was rash with the insults. I meant that you had the wrong idea about what I was saying, but it could have been worded better. 19:10 tenplus1 hi CWz 19:10 Shara I'm all for using games as a medium for storytelling. The potential for that is a big part of why I've been hanging around MT this long. 19:11 Shara I just honestly do not feel that MTG is the place for it. 19:11 Shara If new official games can be added, it would be good if they could have some lore and worldbuilding to them 19:12 benrob0329 And I honestly do not feel that purpose can be given to the vanilla game without some kind of backstory as to why things exist. 19:12 Shara I don't mind if you disagree with me. I just feel MTG needs to remain a bit more general than that and should focus on progression through gameplay instead 19:13 benrob0329 That is just my opinion, strong as it may be I need to work on presenting it without getting frustrated at people. 19:13 Shara Because adding in some kind of plotline to it now would either be too big a shift, or would actually be really weak. Since the game hasn't been built up with such a thing in mind, you'd basically need to remake it so that any of this mattered. 19:14 Shara And then you are talking about ahuge undertaking that may as well be a new game anyway. 19:14 jas_ i like the idea of random signs with tips and lore and stuff 19:14 jas_ and books in bookshelves or the loot chests in dungeons. 19:14 benrob0329 Shara: Not necessarily, but I do see your point 19:15 Shara It's like... if you want to add lore and story, do it properly 19:15 benrob0329 jas_: text needs translation 19:15 paramat (.. this will take a while) indeed CSM 'flavour' restrictions will only be enforceable in 0.5.0 19:15 tenplus1 a lone sign in an underground dungeon with "The cake is a lie!" written on it :D 19:15 Shara tenplus1: pretty sure RC has a couple of them hidden away :D 19:15 tenplus1 eheheh 19:16 jas_ benrob0329: there's localization helpers and translation stuff anyway 19:17 benrob0329 But why read what can be shown? :-) 19:18 jas_ i been meaning to give a book generated based on a text file in the mod dir or worldir. now i can't help but think about books and signs. i have these intercomm thingies that can save a note in its metadata even when dug, those could come with some plot twists 19:18 jas_ can't wait for falling nodes with metadata pr 19:18 jas_ and *assumes kneeling position* the bindable mouse button PR 19:18 Shara The problem with random encounters (be they mobs acting a certain way or books found in dungeons, or signs on the wall with clues)... is that they get pretty repetative really quickly. 19:19 jas_ more like a challenge 19:19 jas_ what about colorization? 19:20 jas_ i'm only half joking. sometimes less is more, and even finding a book with a note on it would be pretty fun. now i miss the nyancat but am glad it's gone overall 19:20 Shara But imagine you find that same book in five different dungeons over the space of a week? 19:20 jas_ i'd add it back in to dcbl if it weren't for that pb&j mod 19:20 jas_ imagine the book's color corresponds to the dungeons biome! 19:20 benrob0329 Shara: thus my suggestion to make dungeons rarer :-) 19:20 jas_ welcome to... desert stone biome 19:21 Shara jas_: I'm actually working on something with different colour coded biomes at the moment 19:21 benrob0329 And making decorations content aware might be a good idea 19:21 Shara Mostly just as a test to make sure I understand exactly how they work before moving on to a serious game 19:21 benrob0329 E.g. only spawn once, or bear these coords, etc 19:21 benrob0329 *near 19:22 Shara what if the player misses it? 19:23 Shara They could be three nodes to the left of a dungeon, and the book spawns there, but they never find out 19:23 Shara So now they missed a vital clue? 19:23 jas_ game over man 19:23 jas_ reset 19:23 benrob0329 Shara: the book isnt needed, just helpful/neat to have 19:24 benrob0329 That is, if its a book that's spawned 19:24 Shara But when all content is fine to miss it all feels a bit pointless anyway 19:24 jas_ it helps against the final boss tho 19:24 benrob0329 The thing with lore is that its not needed, its just there to explain 19:24 Shara (I'm just pikcing holes so you see how much there is to consider) 19:24 paramat semems to be some misunderstanding about CSM, i don't like it, but what sfan5 writes is correct 19:24 Shara paramat: don't think anyone here likes it :( 19:24 tenplus1 ??? 19:24 jas_ i actually agree with shara, lore would be for minetest_game_extended (i'm thinking of the children) 19:24 jas_ i like it 19:25 jas_ (csm) 19:25 Shara If you made a good lore related mod, it shoud be able to drop into most subgames with minimal adjustment needed 19:25 jas_ or a setting 19:25 * jas_ runs away 19:25 Shara jas_: CSM is horrible and should never have been added as it is 19:25 benrob0329 Shara: the fact that most subgames are that similar to MTG hurts 19:25 Shara You should now be fed to a dungeon master for saying otherwise 19:25 tenplus1 ehehe 19:25 Shara And should be sentenced to miss all the hidden lorebooks forever! 19:26 Shara benrob0329: yea, mine won't be 19:26 Raven262 He *should* be fed to a dungeon master. 19:26 paramat "Yet the devs decide it's okay to accept the risks" i didn't =) i made a big fuss about CSM 19:26 benrob0329 I suppose the point of it would be that its there if you want to find it, if you want answers, but you can safely ignore it if you want 19:26 Shara Wish you'd been listened to. 19:27 tenplus1 server should be in control of WHAT client-side runs, not the player 19:27 benrob0329 And it'd make dungeons more interesting, perhaps guide some features of the game 19:27 paramat without server-provided CSMods i think CSM isn't worth it, client-provided CSM is boring and causes problems 19:28 jas_ i'd like to clarify that i like csm in 0.5.0-dev, i kinda missed it in 0.4.16. 19:28 Shara paramat: Yes! 19:29 jas_ and also yes, i was bummed to learn i couldn't feed the client the mod to run on their side 19:29 Shara jas_: I get that some players will like it a lot, but it just doesn't seem worth the problems as it is. 19:30 jas_ i don't want the player to realize it's there, that was my initial thought. it would be something the server sent to the client to alleviate burdon 19:30 jas_ like constantly tracking whether player moved, for afk kick timer eg 19:30 jas_ but transparent to the client end user 19:30 tenplus1 I coudl have made ambience lite CSM that was passed to client through server to handle local sounds... 19:31 Shara That's what I thought the point was originally as well 19:31 red-001 tbh I didn't expect csm to go this long without server mod sending 19:31 Shara Instead we get chest inspector, and ore detector, and attempts for clients to get free items. 19:31 jas_ best laid plans 19:32 tenplus1 hi red 19:32 Shara And coloured text, and CSM generated spam and so on... 19:32 Shara Hi red-001 19:32 paramat so i'm saying, either add server-provided CSMods or remove CSM. server-provided was the primary feature and the one stated in MT's TODO 19:32 jas_ would a github issue documenting specific abuses be helpful? 19:33 red-001 it's trivial to implement and it seems the public opinion is in favour of it 19:33 jas_ the ticket would refer only to actual cases like you mention above 19:33 Shara jas_: The worry is always what potential ways to abuse it did we not learn about yet 19:33 jas_ bah 19:33 Shara And there is absolutely no reliable way for the server to block it 19:34 IhrFussel Can anybody confirm this theory? "server_unload_unused_data_timeout with high value means the server accesses the DB less and takes mapblocks from RAM if already loaded?" 19:34 jas_ i think you have it backwards, IhrFussel 19:34 tenplus1 fussel, yes, but uses a ton of memory for each player 19:34 red-001 I reason it wasn't added at beginning was to give people time to try and find exploits that would allow exploiting the client so they can be fixed 19:34 red-001 however it doesn't seem to be what happened 19:35 jas_ allow server to reject clients who use clientmods not sent by server? or no 19:35 IhrFussel jas_, with low value the server reads too many recent mapblocks from the DB...so setting it high should at least prevent reduntant loading of recently visited mapblocks 19:36 IhrFussel redundant* 19:36 jas_ i dunno, setting the timeout high would allow more memory usage over time? i'm absolutely just guessing. 19:36 Shara jas_: client doesn't have to admit to what it's doing though 19:36 Shara This is why it's now so difficult to fix 19:36 jas_ server can say, use this bytecode and only this and anything else is a kick? is that feasable? 19:37 Shara Not really. Devs would never agree to that kind of approach. 19:37 IhrFussel Yes I don't care about RAM usage..MT can take all my 4 GB (it only uses max 1 right now) ... I try to do everything to reduce DB accesses since those cause my lags...it's just those 19:37 sfan5 aside from being insecure, it's not feasible as you can't verify what the client says it's using 19:37 Shara (and I'd agree with them not agreeing) 19:38 sfan5 unless you put some (even if simple) DRM into the bytecode, which provokes the usual responses regarding FOSS 19:38 Shara Basically, MT let something out of the bag which now has no good solution as it stands 19:38 red-001 better remove all of csm then use bytecode, I wouldn't want minetest be be know as that game where you can get a virus by joining a server 19:38 Fixer nah, mt has hackers anyway, even without csm 19:39 tenplus1 that's why I was so eager for 0.5.0 update, it forces servers to update and cuts out many fake games... but not for all 19:39 Fixer instead start working on noclip and fly prevention 19:39 Shara CSM has drastically dropped the entry level into cheating 19:39 red-001 are the csm limits not working as intended? 19:39 Shara red-001: client side only 19:40 Shara Server still has no real control at all 19:40 red-001 so? All this was client side to start with 19:40 Shara But entry level for cheating has been permanently lowered by this 19:40 Shara In the past you would have to write your own code... now the code for CSM gets dumped on the forum for anyone to take, and they disable one check in their client? 19:40 jas_ minetest, now with supercharged chat spam and colors. if only there was blinking text! 19:41 Shara Puts all this at the same level as fly/noclip. 19:41 tenplus1 lol jas, dont give anyone ideas 19:41 IhrFussel red-001, we server owners were "fooled" in a way: We thought you meant by restriction that we have the TOTAL control over which client accesses what data from the server 19:41 Shara So basically, server owners asked for more control of such problems, and now have even more worries instead :) 19:41 red-001 IhrFussel, fair point 19:41 * tenplus1 just wants a disable switch for csm 19:41 Shara Yup, I was under the impression the flavours would be server side 19:41 benrob0329 CSM should be completely server dictates imo 19:42 tenplus1 +1 19:42 benrob0329 *dictated 19:42 Shara But apparently it can't be done, so we're now stuck with this dispite the devs having admitted the issue 19:42 red-001 changing that is easy, getting people to agree on a single solution is hard 19:42 benrob0329 If the server is yourself, then you can install any csm you want. 19:42 Shara How can it be fixed then? 19:42 jas_ so a server can not detect whether a playing is using malicious code on their end, any more than whether they're flying? i just can't believe it! 19:43 IhrFussel I'm pretty sure that almost every serious server owner would agree with server-side restrictions 19:43 benrob0329 0.5.0 is breaking, fix it there 19:43 Shara I want the ability to tur off CSM for everyone, not just for players who don't happen to compile their own clients 19:43 Shara turn* 19:43 jas_ but it's in their client, i take it? 19:43 IhrFussel It's mainly the core devs who disagree cause "DRM" 19:43 jas_ so you'd have to... configure their client? maybe you can set their .conf values :D 19:43 jas_ i wouldn't want a server to mess with mah keys 19:44 Shara Given CSM was specifically made for servers (it doesn't have any singleplayer role), the fact that it's the server owners who are unhappy should say a lot 19:44 benrob0329 I wouldn't mind some settings being settable by the server 19:45 red-001 Shara, that's possible as long as you figure out how to deal with bultin 19:45 benrob0329 Like node outline visibility (a server might not want selection boxes visible( 19:45 IhrFussel You could add a message to the connecting client "warning" him that certain functions are disabled on that server 19:45 red-001 and the players haven't read the lua c api docs 19:46 Shara red-001: as long as 'I' figure it out? 19:46 red-001 sorry I didn't mean that 19:46 red-001 as long as someone figures it out 19:47 red-001 since I'm at a lose at how to deal with bultin 19:47 red-001 loading it from the server would be a compatibility nightmare 19:47 benrob0329 English: where you (singular) and you (plural) are the same word. 19:47 red-001 loading it from the client would make the change pointless 19:47 sfan5 what's the problem with builtin? 19:48 benrob0329 Its easily changed client side code 19:48 benrob0329 Afaik 19:48 red-001 or I guess csm could be rewritten to not need builtin 19:48 tenplus1 hi Aerozoic 19:48 sfan5 oh that 19:48 Aerozoic wazup peeps 19:49 sfan5 you can just compile the sha256 of builtin into the binary and it would check it 19:49 sfan5 since if you can compile the binary you can just disable the flavor checks anyway 19:49 red-001 ^ 19:49 red-001 meaning we are back to the start of all this 19:49 sfan5 no 19:49 sfan5 you have solved the problem of people editing csm builtin to get around the server saying "don't load any csm mods" 19:50 red-001 you add checks and they only affect people that don't compile their own clients 19:50 benrob0329 Again, I feel like csm should only be given to the client by the server 19:51 Shara I don't mind players setting things like which fonts they see and so on... but then most of the things I can think of like that should be client settings anyway really 19:51 sfan5 red-001: compiling your own client is hard on: windows, mac os, android, iOS 19:51 sfan5 that covers enough of the playerbase 19:52 IhrFussel If a server has too many CSMs the client will need to download a bunch of data on each connection since I don't think it would make sense to cache CSMs sent by the server 19:52 Shara sfan5: I've compiled two different MT versions on Windows so far, so it can't be 'that' hard to anyone who has a clue :) 19:52 red-001 I don't see a reason for not caching csm 19:53 tenplus1 when crafting is there a way to obtain a full stack of items instead of clicking like a madman 19:53 sfan5 Shara: the average minetest player is a child with a mobile phone 19:53 sfan5 not someone experience with programming 19:53 IhrFussel It would add another step (checking cached CSM version/hasg against server version/hash) 19:53 sfan5 +d 19:53 Shara I've never really been worried about the app users, since I very much doubt they are the ones enabling noclip for themselves either 19:53 red-001 Shara, as I see it you are asking for an impossible to solve issue to be solved completely, this can only really be mitigated, unless you have full control over what code the users machine executes 19:53 Shara But I've had enough of them to deal with 19:54 sfan5 ok, then: the average non-mobile minetest player is a child on their parents computer 19:54 Shara red-001: odd, I thought I am the one who acknowledged it can't be solved 19:54 sfan5 still not someone experienced with programming 19:54 benrob0329 tenplus1: spam middle mouse click 19:54 tenplus1 whassat do ben? 19:54 benrob0329 Grabs 10 at a time 19:54 red-001 even if you remove csm someone could program thier own version of it or revent the commit 19:54 tenplus1 thanks dude 19:55 benrob0329 red-001: someone could also edit the c++ 19:55 Aerozoic Anybody know if there's an easy way to add a priv to all existing accounts? 19:55 Shara CSM removed completely would still be more of a barrier than the current situation 19:55 benrob0329 At that point your talking about someone who knows what their doing 19:56 IhrFussel If we just add a way to tell the client "no CSMs" for now we would be back to "need to edit c++ to cheat" at least 19:56 sfan5 IhrFussel: flavor limits are exactly that 19:56 Shara FUssel, it will be that, but it means editing needed is very minor 19:56 benrob0329 CSM that is server-only makes sense imo 19:56 sfan5 ^ i wish i could pin msgs on irc 19:56 sfan5 because that's just gold 19:56 Shara It's at "switching fly on" level instead of "I now need to code all this stuff myself" level 19:57 Shara benrob0329: read some more :) 19:57 sfan5 Shara: since csm can't be removed without any trace the barrier would still be "git revert " 19:57 sfan5 which isn't a lot more than "edit this line" 19:57 IhrFussel I thought flavors are client-side? So you mean the server tells the client what to do and the client either follows those rules or (if modified) doesn't? 19:57 Shara sfan5: I know. 19:57 benrob0329 sfan5: then build, fix incompatibilities, etc 19:57 red-001 wipe the commit history by sqaushing it into one commit called "make changes" 19:57 sfan5 ^ 19:58 benrob0329 ^ 19:58 sfan5 IhrFussel: yes, that's how every other feature works too 19:58 Shara sfan5: what I said above was trying to explain to Fussel, not making any claim it would fix it 19:58 sfan5 every other = e.g. the fly/noclip code 19:59 IhrFussel sfan5, flavors don't exist in 0.4.16 AFAIK so until they switch to 0.5.0 they are out of luck? Or will flavors be backported? 19:59 Shara I'm obviously pretty unimpressed with this, and I think it's stupid that CSM was ever added since it does nothing at all helpful, but I get that now we're stuck with this mess 19:59 benrob0329 Shara: I know that flavors are becoming a thing, but they have problems too 19:59 sfan5 correct, no they won't backported 19:59 Shara benrob0329: nope, the whole issue is that flavours are not that much help 19:59 Aerozoic wuts a flavor? 20:00 IhrFussel Aerozoic, CSM restrictions 20:00 benrob0329 Can 0.4 just be abondoned, everyone move to 0.5 with fixed csm 20:00 Shara It's not fixed >.> 20:00 paramat phew caught up =) 20:00 IhrFussel But you do know that 90%+ of the server list right now don't use 0.5.0 and likely won't when it releases either? It will take a looong time until major servers switch 20:00 Shara paramat: don't tell us and ruhn away while you still can :D 20:01 benrob0329 Or, Server Provided Client Side Scripts 20:02 benrob0329 #MakeCsmGreatInTheFirstPlace 20:02 tenplus1 lolol 20:02 IhrFussel o you have any clue how many active players on my server use iOS? I would lose ALL of them if I switch to 0.5.0 ... and I'm sure there are other servers with very important iOS players 20:02 IhrFussel Do* 20:02 paramat essentially, devs need to commit to adding server-provided CSM, otherwise we're better off removing CSM. so who's planning to work on it? red-001 20:03 tenplus1 I vote to remove it 20:03 benrob0329 IhrFussel: iOS forks are illegal 20:03 Shara I'd like it gone, though I recognise fully that it does little to adress the underlaying concerns at this stage 20:03 tenplus1 we need an official ios release but it'll cost to get it on the damn app store 20:03 Shara IhrFussel: I'm in no hurry to update to 0.5 for the same reason 20:03 IhrFussel benrob0329, I honestly don't care whether my players use something official or not as long as they follow my rules and contrinute to my server 20:04 IhrFussel contribute* 20:04 benrob0329 I vote to remove client provided mods, but retain the api for server use. 20:04 red-001 I mean I could get a draft working in a day or two 20:04 red-001 it's not hard to do and I implemented it as a PoC before 20:04 Shara Would server-provided CSm actually address the issues? 20:05 benrob0329 (And then squash commits to avoid a revert) 20:05 IhrFussel All those "illegal" forks on iOS are widely used on MT servers... and I will not want to lose those just cause I cannot have important restrictions/features for my server version 20:05 red-001 Of people being able to modify their client ofc not 20:05 Shara That's not the issue 20:05 red-001 you would need to get rid of minetest for that 20:05 tenplus1 server side csm gives the owners control over the mods run on client side so no-one should be able to cheat at all 20:05 Shara The issue is the server not being able to control this 20:05 Shara Can someone confirm if what tenplus1 just said is correct? If so, please make it happen 20:06 paramat server-provided CSM doesn't improve the cheating situation, but at least gives CSM a reason to exist 20:06 benrob0329 Itd allow us to have things like prediction in the future without the worry of cheating 20:06 IhrFussel No the reason is license conflicts 20:06 Shara benrob0329: paramat's statement just proved you wrong 20:06 IhrFussel the Apple store doesn't really allow GPL software 20:06 paramat no tenplus is wrong 20:06 tenplus1 ? 20:06 Shara So what I suspected. Just adds more on top and doesn't address the issue :) 20:06 benrob0329 paramat: how does it not remove cheating? 20:07 tenplus1 if server owners are in control of the mods loaded on client-side then HOW can the client cheat ? 20:07 sfan5 server-side csm is a oxymoron and does not exist 20:07 Shara Giving the server the ability to provide something doesn't magically make it able to detect and prevent what the client is doing 20:07 tenplus1 csm mods loaded from server and RUN on client... 20:07 sfan5 server-provided csm mods do not do anything to hinder cheating whatsoever 20:07 red-001 I mean I'm kinda confused what exactly do you want? You are saying it's not the user being able to modify the code before compiling but it does seem to be that 20:07 red-001 do you want to remove* 20:07 Aerozoic What about simply blocking CSM from sending data to the server? 20:08 Shara red-001: I don't think there is any real fix 20:08 benrob0329 sfan5: we mean to disallow client provided mods 20:08 sfan5 you can do that already in 0.5 20:08 paramat cheating will always be possible by altering a client, the only total protection against cheating is serverside checking of player actions (there's already a WIP PR) 20:08 benrob0329 Completely 20:08 tenplus1 hi thomas 20:08 red-001 I really don't see the point of discussing this then if there is no fix 20:08 sfan5 ^ 20:08 Shara The barrier to cheating has been reduced too much. 20:08 red-001 if you don't think anything you do can change this why do anything? 20:09 benrob0329 If clients cannot provide code they cannot use that to cheat 20:09 Shara I'm not the dev or someone who worked on CSM. 20:09 Shara and red-001, you are actually the one who said this was fixable to begin so... 20:09 * Shara shrugs 20:09 benrob0329 If you remove the git history they cannot revert 20:09 Roger9 I don't think a CSM can do anything a hacked client can't... 20:09 ThomasMonroe hey tenplus1, been a while 20:09 IhrFussel Shara, CSM flavors in 0.5.0 will fix that partly (cause it requires editing c++ code to cheat just like before CSM) but the actual problem is that it will NOT be in 0.4.17 20:10 red-001 well the client always provides code, the code executed by the cpu is usually loaded from storage that the client controls 20:10 Shara IhrFussel: I think you are off the mark, but I'm getting tired of repeating myself 20:10 red-001 if CSM flavours or even being able to tell clients to turn off csm doesn't fix this for you there is nothing that can 20:10 Shara So last time: the problem is that it reduces the barrier to just changing one check in the code, whereas before you needed to actually write your own code. 20:10 Shara And that difference is actually quite a big leap. 20:10 sfan5 IhrFussel: backporting does not work as 0.4.17 will have backwards compat, if you connect with a .16 client to a .17 server flavor will have no effect at all 20:11 benrob0329 Flavors completely disable things, not just user provided mods 20:11 red-001 trust me 99% of users can't change one check 20:11 Shara red-001: I had enough trouble with people using fly/noclip on my servers already 20:11 red-001 over 99% 20:11 Shara So it happens enough as far as I'm concerned 20:11 IhrFussel Enabling fly just requires 1 line to be changed AFAIK... but barely anyone does it 20:12 benrob0329 IhrFussel: it requires you to build the engine 20:12 Shara Fussel, you are lucky then. I've had a lot of problems with it more than once 20:12 benrob0329 User provided csm does not 20:12 red-001 I remember all the panic after someone released a modded client for cheating and see what came of that 20:13 IhrFussel benrob0329, I thought CSM flavors is c++?? You confuse me now 20:13 red-001 seems most would be cheaters can't even google 20:13 paramat CSM is c++ yes 20:13 Shara But since people are just going in circles or not understanding, red-001 is right that it is pointless to carry on. 20:13 benrob0329 Flavors restrict csm in general but still allows it if a server provided csm needs a feature 20:13 paramat *CSM flavours is c++ 20:13 tenplus1 hi caleb 20:13 Shara I will be considering whitelisting my servers or making them private, at least my survival server. 20:14 CalebDavis hi ten 20:14 IhrFussel Ok so fact: With 0.5.0 the situation will be kinda be the same like before CSM introduction again meaning you cannot simply add some lua and cheat the server 20:14 sfan5 correct 20:14 benrob0329 So with flavors, you can leave it useful and open to abuse, or closed and pointless. 20:15 paramat well flavours only restricts the dangerous functions (get node etc) 20:15 benrob0329 Because the user can still provide arbitrary code. 20:15 IhrFussel Okay but that still doesn't help 0.4.X servers that don't want to switch yet 20:16 Fixer so much spam in chat 20:16 paramat personally, my controversial opinion is to remove CSM 20:16 jas_ hi Fixer ! 20:16 tenplus1 +1 paramat 20:16 benrob0329 IhrFussel: 0.4x cannot be helped, its already broken 20:17 paramat i'm not even sure server-provided CSM is worth the trouble 20:17 benrob0329 Unless its made incompatible with 0.4.16 its useless to patch the 0.4 branch 20:17 tenplus1 if the sql checks are reduced (what shiva said earlier) that'll help speed things up so csm wont really be needed 20:17 IhrFussel benrob0329, but the core devs leave server owners with established userbase helpless now in a way since they need to accept that their servers can be compromised very easily by CSMs 20:17 paramat however, this is not a pleasant thing to suggest due to the work put in 20:18 tenplus1 I know, it's a good idea but with NO control over the feature itself... doesnt help 20:18 benrob0329 IhrFussel: yup, thats the problem 20:18 paramat but i think it might be best 20:19 benrob0329 Client Side Code is useful for servers to reduce load, its useful for cheating if the user can provide it. 20:19 IhrFussel No matter what you decides it only helps those who switch to 0.5.0 and risk losing their userbase 20:20 benrob0329 IhrFussel: unfortunately yes, although you could ban users if they use 0.4.16 20:21 IhrFussel benrob0329, 0.4.16 cannot connect to 0.5.0 I think...min protocol was bumped 20:22 Donbatman Server owners should get together and set a date to upgrade. THen let all players know that on that date they need to upgrade to 0.5.0 20:22 benrob0329 IhrFussel: if a fixed 0.4x release was made, you could kick all 0.4.16 clients 20:22 jas_ all players? 20:22 Fixer hello 20:22 benrob0329 jas_: force them to upgrade or downgrade 20:22 Fixer people here over dramatisizing 20:22 Donbatman A simple mod that sends a chat to let them know every 10 minutes 20:22 IhrFussel Donbatman, I can show you how many players still connect with 0.4.11 clients 20:23 benrob0329 IhrFussel: upgrade or downgrade bases on feature checks, but dont allow 0.4.16 20:24 IhrFussel Okay well not a lot use 0.4.11 anymore but this morning someone joined with one... now let's see 0.4.12 20:24 Donbatman IhrFussel I understand many clients are still behind on things but it is either move forward trying to improve minetest or catter to people who don't upgrade 20:25 IhrFussel The problem is that iOS users cannot play anymore since (likely) nobody will create an "illegal" 0.5.0 app 20:26 jas_ i was under the impression they never could 20:26 jas_ there was not an official minetest for iOS, due to their ToS 20:26 benrob0329 jas_: can and should are different 20:26 IhrFussel They couldn't right now cause the switch to c++11 and some other things messed up the build tools 20:26 jas_ that's android too, not just iOS, afaik 20:27 Donbatman Someone should try to get ahold of a person that made the iOS app and see if they can make a 0.5.0 app 20:27 IhrFussel Yes...but my theory is that (at least on Android) devs *will* fork 0.5.0 Android MT and create their apps again 20:27 sfan5 Donbatman: which iOS app are you referencing? 20:27 Donbatman I am saying any iOS app 20:28 Donbatman I do not use apple so I know nothing about the apps 20:28 tenplus1 I dont like apple for the fact they wont let anyone install there own apps without the store 20:29 IhrFussel tenplus1, unfortunately iPhones and iPads are extremely popular in the world...and many parents rather buy their kids one of those vs a cheap Android device 20:30 tenplus1 *shudder* would prefer android any day 20:30 IhrFussel But I cannot tell my active iOS users "go buy an anroid phone" 20:30 IhrFussel android* 20:30 Fixer well, both ios and android are kinds of shit, it is just one is more "anal" 20:31 IhrFussel Android is definitely more open 20:32 IhrFussel Not sure about Google ToS but Apple states "you don't own this device you just buy the license to use it" 20:33 jas_ i wanna add a crouch but i'm outta buttons 20:34 jas_ want to add a crouch, with eye height adjustment, model animation, and collision adjust so players can fit through 1-node spaces 20:35 Fixer buy raspb pi and setup retropi with bestest games of ERA, bestest 20:36 jas_ minetest_game best game 20:36 jas_ my favorite thing in the dry shrubs 20:36 Fixer back in my day i had zx and nes, now you have everything, easy to setup and to DL (harhar) 20:37 Fixer so kids can have maximum fun, without walled gardens, microshitzactions, etc 20:37 jas_ i had doom with pc speaker, that was awesome i need to use my pc speakers more 20:37 jas_ beep 20:37 sfan5 minetest should release its own tablet hardware 20:37 jas_ loooool 20:38 Donbatman Fixer, I am guessing you had to walk uphill through 3 feet of snow to go play your nes too right? 20:38 Fixer not really, I had to walk few houses away to 33MHz PC 20:39 Fixer and snow is kinda sucks in Europe (too little) 20:39 Fixer for some it is nice, no need to shovel that crap, but for some reason I like to shovel it (physic and that general winter feel) 20:39 jas_ it's so wonderful. mmm, shoveling snow in the cold 20:41 tenplus1 nite folks o/ 20:46 jas_ better than shoveling in the heat i guess, the snow gets heavy when it's wet lol 21:33 benrob0329 Fixer: come to Michigan sometime :-P 21:33 benrob0329 You can have all the shoveling you can muster :-) 21:42 benrob0329 paramat: what do you think about adding some out of the way lore into MTG 21:42 benrob0329 Spruce up dungeons and the like with it 21:44 benrob0329 (I'm going to make an issue discussing the idea in more detail) 21:51 paramat well it depends of course, but i agree with Shara, MTG is too general and neutral for some things 21:51 paramat but will address the specifics you raise 21:56 benrob0329 paramat: the idea is that it stays hidden and out of the way if the player doesnt want to explore it, but adds more depth for why things are the way they are. 21:58 paramat my opinion on today's discussion about MTG is that when it comes to fun, excitement, interest: new games are where it's at, MTG will always be somewhat limited by having to be a mod base, and because so much depends on it 21:59 paramat however it will continue to be improved, i have a lot of stuff on the way 22:00 paramat games made without the slowness of official dev, and made by small teams or one person, will likely be more interesting 22:02 paramat so i think some pressure needs to be taken off MTG in terms of people's expectations, and new games need to be encouraged 22:06 sfan5 maintaining / writing a whole new subgame is not easy and it seems most people just want to play "minecraft but not quite" with some addtl. mods 22:07 paramat yes, so we'll continue to improve MTG and move it closer to being a 'game' 22:11 benrob0329 Wb Shara 22:11 Shara Thanks. 22:12 benrob0329 paramat: I think MTG can be made fun, while still being modular and small 22:12 benrob0329 Fun does not need to bee complex, simplicity can be blissful 22:12 Shara What I want to know, on the topic of subgames, is what the odds are of getting more official subgames added (assuming suitable ones can be produced) 22:12 sfan5 Shara: made small changes to the news post, thoughts? https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=300744 22:13 sfan5 or maybe my changes are small enough not to be noticeable :P 22:13 Shara I detect extra bold 22:14 sfan5 yea 22:14 Shara But seems nice and clear to me 22:14 paramat odds are high if a game is not too similar to MTG (as many are) 22:14 Shara (Also sorry for not just making a post myself earlier - but since I can't post to that forum, it felt a bit silly :P) 22:15 Shara paramat: I have some plans as you know, and though there will be some similarities, I hope what I have in mind will be different enough. 22:15 benrob0329 While I am very excited to see new games and projects, I think we still need to make the default game fun. I agree that MTG need to be lightweight and modular, but I think we can make due with that :-) 22:15 Shara Biggest challenge is the sheer amount of work 22:16 Shara And I guess I worry that very few subgames seem to get much attention, and that without official status, they will never really be picked up by new people the way MTG is 22:16 Shara It's MTG's status as the only official game that makes it such a focus for criticism. 22:16 benrob0329 Inside The Box is a great example of a non-orthodox game made with Minetest, and I can't wait to see more projects like it 22:17 paramat i guess we should also re-assess the existing games for inclusion 22:17 benrob0329 I also hope to see adventures, roleplay, and more created. But we still need to give a good first impression 22:17 Shara I struggle to think of any that are different enough and also complete enough, but I didn't play that many subgames yet 22:18 benrob0329 Don't overwhelm the user with choices (this is honestly the biggest complaint I hear about MT ready) 22:18 benrob0329 *already 22:18 Shara Some good subgames like CTF and Inside the Box are clearly server focused, so not suitable for inclusion in that way 22:18 Shara benrob0329: complaint from who? I never heard that from anyone 22:18 benrob0329 Right now, a new user cannot just pick up the game and play 22:19 Shara That's not about choices though 22:19 benrob0329 They have to set up things or connect to a server 22:19 Shara And actually you can, but MTG is the only official game and is boring 22:19 benrob0329 Its from someone who doesnt like 3000 options 22:20 Shara I don't really get it. Pick up game, select singleplayer or server, play 22:20 paramat i haven't noticed people complain about choices, they usually want more 22:20 Shara The problem is only one official game as a choice, and people struggle when it comes to adding mods/games themselves 22:20 benrob0329 Which was the point of his comment (which others peers agree with him) 22:20 Shara I've actually lost players on my servers... as a result of explaining to them how to install mods 22:21 benrob0329 Too many mods, too many choices, you can't just play and have fun unless you join a server 22:21 benrob0329 Or sift through mods 22:21 Shara That's not about too many choices. It's about not enough default choice without learning to jump through hoops 22:21 benrob0329 (I don't have a problem searching through mods, but I like tweaking everything) 22:22 benrob0329 Shara: that's a better way to put it 22:22 paramat 'too many mods' heh 22:22 benrob0329 But having 10 different default games may be a bit too much "default choice" 22:22 Shara If MT game with a small number of games, or had an easy way to let the user get more from the client, a lot would be solved 22:23 Shara Since there is just one now, I doubt another nine will appear over night 22:23 paramat well once someone makes an exciting game we can make it the default. and MTG will improve (skins mod, simple mobs) 22:23 Shara I think the bigger worry is there being no suitable games right now, not there being too many :) 22:24 paramat yes 22:24 benrob0329 paramat: will the Dungeon Master and Orkki be returning? 22:24 benrob0329 They were the only official mobs to ever be in MT 22:25 * benrob0329 uploaded an image: 79d5239590597beaf4565568fafb0d00-d6li8k1.jpg (341KB) 22:25 benrob0329 I still want this to be a thing in-game :P 22:27 benrob0329 Question, would mobs be allowed to have some angles faces or would the models have to look pixelated? 22:28 paramat cuboid and simple for consistency with player model 22:29 paramat many mob mods have models far too fancy 22:33 benrob0329 paramat: yes, but it woukd be more difficult to to a waistline as a block than as a small angle 22:33 Fixer mtg right now is pretty much sandbox game (that is pretty much creative), but it has this other survivalist parts (like mining, smelting, farming) - so it is not just sandbox, then it is incomplete survival 22:33 benrob0329 (And require more polygons) 22:34 benrob0329 The point would be to make the DM seem "buff" rather than cuddly as the current model does 22:35 paramat which current model? 22:37 benrob0329 Mobs_Redo or Simple_Mobs 22:39 benrob0329 The nickname among my friends was "teaddy bear", we didn't even know it was hostile at first lol 22:39 benrob0329 we learned rather quickly 23:18 Fixer when i seen it in 0.3 - it coincided with pedobear meme, so I named that way, and in a way it had some visual similarities 23:18 Fixer teddy bear is much more peaceful