| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:28 |
|
hcorion joined #minetest-dev |
| 00:35 |
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Zeno` joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:06 |
Zeno` |
The change to _game was made a year ago? |
| 01:06 |
Zeno` |
How was it not opposed? O.O |
| 01:09 |
VanessaE |
well the only thing to do is fix it. |
| 01:10 |
Zeno` |
well, the problem there is we will have a schism |
| 01:10 |
Zeno` |
with a whole release that's out of whack (if this was indeed changed 1 year ago in the wrong place; i.e. in _game) |
| 01:11 |
Zeno` |
and anyway only 2 of us (maybe 3) are allowed to merge to _game anyway |
| 01:11 |
VanessaE |
all right, G*d damn it. |
| 01:11 |
VanessaE |
parmat, wake up and get your ass in here. |
| 01:11 |
VanessaE |
paramat* |
| 01:14 |
VanessaE |
to be blunt, these kind of shit needs to stop |
| 01:14 |
VanessaE |
this* |
| 01:17 |
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diemartin joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:35 |
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turtleman joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:46 |
sofar |
what change are we talking about? |
| 01:47 |
VanessaE |
sofar: how light (as in 1-15) corresponds with the visual rendered result and how it affects growing stuff. |
| 01:47 |
VanessaE |
I guess it's because a year ago, more light became required to grow crops than what a torch could produce |
| 01:48 |
VanessaE |
and the new lighting table you guys are working on may be compounding that |
| 01:48 |
VanessaE |
(the one for the rendering stage) |
| 01:48 |
sofar |
the light table is just a visual effect |
| 01:48 |
sofar |
the grow stages is linked to the nodes light level |
| 01:48 |
VanessaE |
I think that's the whole issue. |
| 01:49 |
Zeno` |
yes, and the nodes' light levels are potentially going to be changes |
| 01:49 |
Zeno` |
d |
| 01:49 |
sofar |
I would be totally OK with bright torches |
| 01:49 |
Zeno` |
how they look visually makes no difference at all |
| 01:49 |
VanessaE |
if a torch seems too bright, just use fewer of them |
| 01:49 |
sofar |
it does for visibility |
| 01:49 |
VanessaE |
it's not like players ever only place just one |
| 01:49 |
VanessaE |
they use dozens |
| 01:49 |
sofar |
that's why I wanted them brighter |
| 01:49 |
sofar |
torch spam is a form of grief imho |
| 01:49 |
Zeno` |
for visibility, yes, but for game mechanics the display/visual light levels make no difference |
| 01:50 |
Zeno` |
whereas changing the nodes' light level affects a lot of things |
| 01:50 |
sofar |
I think we just need to come up with some compromise |
| 01:50 |
sofar |
e.g. require 12 to grow crops, and 13 for saplings |
| 01:50 |
sofar |
make torches 13, mese lamps 14 |
| 01:50 |
sofar |
soemthing like that |
| 01:51 |
VanessaE |
saplings just grow on a timer, regardless of light, I thought |
| 01:51 |
Zeno` |
no, they need light |
| 01:51 |
sofar |
./default/trees.lua:if not light_level or light_level < 13 then |
| 01:51 |
VanessaE |
huh. |
| 01:51 |
VanessaE |
well ok |
| 01:51 |
sofar |
all the same function I think now |
| 01:51 |
VanessaE |
in any case, |
| 01:52 |
VanessaE |
let's just fix it |
| 01:52 |
sofar |
afk (dinner/new years etc.) |
| 01:54 |
Zeno` |
doing that in the _game would still make a lot of mods broken though |
| 01:55 |
VanessaE |
perhaps, but what else can be done? |
| 01:55 |
Zeno` |
just tweak the light levels in the engine |
| 01:55 |
Zeno` |
the display light levels I mean |
| 01:55 |
VanessaE |
you know me, I'm one for backward compatibility when it's practical, but if there's no choice but to break a bunch of shit...? |
| 01:55 |
hmmmm |
slight problem with that |
| 01:56 |
hmmmm |
i had plans for adjusting the display light levels with client-side biomes |
| 01:56 |
hmmmm |
should it be a user setting, i wonder? |
| 01:56 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: that's a nice idea and all but frankly, out of scope for this issue :-/ |
| 01:56 |
hmmmm |
well i think this is a silly issue |
| 01:56 |
hmmmm |
just don't touch anything any more |
| 01:56 |
hmmmm |
leave it the way it is right now |
| 01:56 |
VanessaE |
it's too late for that |
| 01:57 |
hmmmm |
how so? |
| 01:57 |
|
lordfingle joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:57 |
VanessaE |
because it would seem that we need to roll back to light relationships that were in place a year ago |
| 01:57 |
VanessaE |
and THEN adapt the rendering table |
| 01:58 |
sofar |
how about we define required light levels in the nodedef? |
| 01:58 |
hmmmm |
when you say light relationships |
| 01:58 |
VanessaE |
principle of least surprise would say that users should just use more or fewer light sources if they don't like the result |
| 01:58 |
hmmmm |
what do you mean there |
| 01:58 |
sofar |
same way we can define the schematics in the nodedef and get rid of the stupid sapling lookup code |
| 01:58 |
VanessaE |
rather than changing *what* sources they use e.g. to grow a sapling or wheat or whatever |
| 01:58 |
VanessaE |
that's what I mean |
| 01:58 |
VanessaE |
but I can't speak for Zeno` |
| 02:00 |
Zeno` |
I don't care what happens with display/visual light brightness |
| 02:00 |
hmmmm |
so just to make sure i'm not misunderstanding, you're saying that there is an issue because players don't like the current perceived brightness of the torches due to the light LUT change? |
| 02:00 |
Zeno` |
It's changing nodedefs that concern me |
| 02:00 |
sofar |
hmmmm: I don't think people are complaining about the visual light levels (most people I've seen respond say it's good) |
| 02:01 |
hmmmm |
yes, and i agree |
| 02:01 |
Zeno` |
well, why change nodedefs then? |
| 02:01 |
hmmmm |
so could someone tell me what the *issue* is? |
| 02:01 |
hmmmm |
nobody needs to change anything |
| 02:01 |
Zeno` |
the issue is that paramat wants to change them |
| 02:01 |
hmmmm |
and there is a massive opposition to his proposed change |
| 02:01 |
hmmmm |
it's called a pull REQUEST for a reason |
| 02:01 |
Zeno` |
good :) So no issue then |
| 02:01 |
hmmmm |
request denied |
| 02:02 |
hmmmm |
I suppose not being able to grow trees with only torches is fine |
| 02:02 |
VanessaE |
change the light levels at the rendering stage, using sofar's or Zeno`s table or something. if necessary, fix farming plants, saplings, etc so that they grow well with the current node def light levels of torches et al. |
| 02:02 |
hmmmm |
annoying change to game mechanics but whatever |
| 02:02 |
VanessaE |
and for G*d sakes, add a mese lamp that isn't an ugly-ass 1m cube. |
| 02:02 |
hmmmm |
VanessaE: why though |
| 02:02 |
hmmmm |
not what, why |
| 02:03 |
VanessaE |
why, which part? |
| 02:03 |
hmmmm |
why do you need to do |
| 02:03 |
hmmmm |
[09:02 PM] <VanessaE> change the light levels at the rendering stage, using sofar's or Zeno`s table or something. if necessary, fix farming plants, saplings, etc so that they grow well with the current node def light levels of torches et al. |
| 02:03 |
hmmmm |
this |
| 02:03 |
VanessaE |
because the existing rendering table (well, what I last saw) makes, and always has made, everything look too dark. |
| 02:03 |
hmmmm |
the new rendering table is fine |
| 02:03 |
VanessaE |
did you see all those screenshots fixer posted a while back? |
| 02:04 |
hmmmm |
not really |
| 02:04 |
VanessaE |
how "new" is "new"? |
| 02:04 |
sofar |
currently, *my* table is in master (that PR was accepted) |
| 02:04 |
VanessaE |
ok, then I accept that. |
| 02:04 |
hmmmm |
as of right now, 12/31/16, the light levels we have are great |
| 02:04 |
Zeno` |
well, if visual light levels need tweaking that is the approach I've been recommending all along, and not change the nodedefs |
| 02:04 |
hmmmm |
don't screw with it |
| 02:04 |
hmmmm |
;; |
| 02:04 |
sofar |
so the only thing remaining is farming mechanics |
| 02:04 |
VanessaE |
then leave the new rendering table in place. |
| 02:04 |
VanessaE |
I'm fine with it. |
| 02:04 |
hmmmm |
me too |
| 02:04 |
VanessaE |
so fix the farming mod and saplings et al. |
| 02:05 |
hmmmm |
so what needs to get fixed with the saplings exactly |
| 02:05 |
VanessaE |
apparently they need too much light to grow |
| 02:05 |
VanessaE |
making underground farming impossible |
| 02:05 |
hmmmm |
well that's controversial |
| 02:05 |
hmmmm |
are you for or against? |
| 02:05 |
|
diemartin joined #minetest-dev |
| 02:05 |
VanessaE |
I am in favor of lowering the required light levels of those growable nodes. |
| 02:06 |
hmmmm |
personally, i could go either way. i miss the fact that a cool game mechanic i used to create underground tree farms is dead, but i can adapt |
| 02:06 |
VanessaE |
but not in favor of changing the light source values of torches etc (yet). |
| 02:06 |
hmmmm |
what do you think about the mese lamp thing though |
| 02:06 |
Zeno` |
I can adapt as well... but for existing worlds I guess they'll just have to never update minetest_game |
| 02:06 |
hmmmm |
:/ |
| 02:06 |
hmmmm |
yeah agreed |
| 02:06 |
hmmmm |
server owners are going to have to never update minetest_game, OR |
| 02:07 |
Zeno` |
it was a very cool and IMO necessary (for deep, deep mining) for underground wood sources but *sigh* |
| 02:07 |
hmmmm |
a mod could be added to minetest_game that's disabled by default, that does nothing more but override the grow function for trees |
| 02:07 |
Zeno` |
we could make a migration script or something as well |
| 02:07 |
hmmmm |
server owners would be able to update MT game, and enable that mod |
| 02:07 |
hmmmm |
no script needed even |
| 02:07 |
Zeno` |
it all sounds awfully complicated though hehhe |
| 02:07 |
Zeno` |
hmm, true |
| 02:07 |
VanessaE |
as for the mese lamp... for now, it should be the brightest light source in the game, but as an ugly-ass cube, well.. no. add something else to go with it, same light level, but looks more like a common grow lamp or whatever |
| 02:08 |
hmmmm |
pretty sure paramat is already working on a better mese lamp |
| 02:08 |
sofar |
this is why I want to move farming parameters into the nodedef, then people can easily make an init.lua with a minetest.override() that puts a new light level needed for growing in the nodedef |
| 02:08 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: to be perfectly honest, what's the delay on that? this isn't something one should need to "work on"... |
| 02:08 |
hmmmm |
sofar: that's reasonable to me, when you put it that way |
| 02:09 |
hmmmm |
VanessaE, it'd have to be a meshnode, no? |
| 02:09 |
hmmmm |
you can't exactly churn those out in a few minutes time |
| 02:09 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: if it were up to me, sure. but you know as well as I do that it won't be. |
| 02:09 |
hmmmm |
well we dunno yet |
| 02:09 |
hmmmm |
we'll see soon enough |
| 02:09 |
hmmmm |
paramat is EST + 6 i think |
| 02:10 |
VanessaE |
and,...um...well... actually, I could churn one out in a few minutes if you wanted a really simple one. ;) |
| 02:10 |
VanessaE |
EST+6 maybe, but this has been an issue for a few days now |
| 02:10 |
hmmmm |
is it really that critical |
| 02:10 |
VanessaE |
so he's had time, if he intends to make one. honestly, I expect it'll be a nodebox not too different from a fencepost |
| 02:10 |
hmmmm |
that a couple days is enough to complain about |
| 02:11 |
hmmmm |
it's a 3d model that visually represents a specific pattern of 16 ones and zeros |
| 02:11 |
hmmmm |
for a video game |
| 02:11 |
hmmmm |
nobody's dying |
| 02:11 |
VanessaE |
(I'm not saying paramat isn't creative, btw. I'm saying he's conservative - seems like no one wants to really exploit meshnodes in mt_game) |
| 02:11 |
hmmmm |
nsj |
| 02:11 |
hmmmm |
bah* are you kidding me? |
| 02:11 |
VanessaE |
I'm quite serious. |
| 02:11 |
hmmmm |
maybe conservative with visual styling, but minetest_game gets some ridiculous propositions from him |
| 02:12 |
Zeno` |
phew |
| 02:12 |
hmmmm |
by ridiculous i mean changing game mechanics in a big way |
| 02:12 |
hmmmm |
not necessarily bad |
| 02:12 |
VanessaE |
I meant the visual styling, actually; but really, look at mt_game. can you spot one thing in it that couldn't have been done before mesh nodes? |
| 02:12 |
hmmmm |
absolutely not |
| 02:12 |
hmmmm |
what would celeron say? |
| 02:12 |
hmmmm |
i know he doesn't like meshnodes but nodeboxes, maybe? |
| 02:12 |
VanessaE |
he'd say he doesn't care enough to change it :P |
| 02:12 |
hmmmm |
of course |
| 02:13 |
Zeno` |
I think he would oppose changes to nodebox light levels though |
| 02:13 |
hmmmm |
i mean i agree we need a strong lead on visual style for mt_game |
| 02:13 |
hmmmm |
Zeno`: you mean torch light levels |
| 02:13 |
hmmmm |
? |
| 02:13 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: let me put it this way - you ever looked at my/Dan's ilights mod? |
| 02:13 |
Zeno` |
mostly yes |
| 02:13 |
hmmmm |
i haven't no |
| 02:13 |
hmmmm |
this should be consensus based |
| 02:14 |
hmmmm |
no design by committee, just what a simple majority wants it to be like |
| 02:14 |
VanessaE |
https://daconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/screenshots/ilights.png |
| 02:14 |
VanessaE |
there. That's over-complex for mt_game of course |
| 02:14 |
hmmmm |
yeah absolutely |
| 02:14 |
VanessaE |
but it's an example of something you can do that looks good and doesn't go apeshit |
| 02:14 |
hmmmm |
something simpler than that but you can do something very neat looking for mese lamps |
| 02:14 |
VanessaE |
imagine a "mese lamp" that looks like the yellow one, but simplified |
| 02:14 |
hmmmm |
yeah |
| 02:15 |
VanessaE |
yeah, see we're on the same page here |
| 02:15 |
hmmmm |
i mean mese lamps is supposed to be alien tecnhology right? |
| 02:15 |
hmmmm |
or is mese an alien material and humans make use of it... |
| 02:15 |
VanessaE |
it's an "alien artifact" |
| 02:15 |
Zeno` |
I think it's alien something |
| 02:15 |
VanessaE |
of course redefined all to hell |
| 02:15 |
hmmmm |
who cares man |
| 02:16 |
hmmmm |
just make it look cool, and make it a nodebox or meshnode |
| 02:16 |
hmmmm |
problem solved |
| 02:16 |
hmmmm |
in fact VanessaE if you want to put together a simple PR to get the ball rolling i would not object to you using the yellow lamp model right there in that screenshot |
| 02:16 |
hmmmm |
seriously |
| 02:17 |
hmmmm |
(see how i just delegated work to somebody else? :-P) |
| 02:17 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 02:17 |
Zeno` |
very cunning |
| 02:17 |
VanessaE |
I'd submit a PR but you know as well as I that paramat will throw it out |
| 02:17 |
Zeno` |
I try that with VE all the time but she just tells me to fsck off |
| 02:17 |
VanessaE |
yeah, fsck off. :) |
| 02:17 |
hmmmm |
Zeno`: don't you mean "f**k off"? |
| 02:18 |
Zeno` |
that'll do :) |
| 02:18 |
Zeno` |
VanessaE, but you already have the model |
| 02:18 |
VanessaE |
besides, I'm too busy binge-watching The Simpsons :P |
| 02:18 |
hmmmm |
yeah idunno |
| 02:18 |
Zeno` |
how long would the PR take to make? :P |
| 02:18 |
hmmmm |
paramat is a big contributor to mtgame but not the only voice |
| 02:18 |
hmmmm |
again this all needs to be consensus based |
| 02:19 |
VanessaE |
of course there's one problem with all of this |
| 02:19 |
VanessaE |
your 7+1 lighting idea. maybe it should be instituted first? |
| 02:19 |
VanessaE |
otherwise, aren't we just setting up for another clusterfuck later? |
| 02:19 |
hmmmm |
7+1 lighting thing is dead |
| 02:19 |
VanessaE |
well, shit. |
| 02:19 |
hmmmm |
i was talking with that junhedad whatever guy |
| 02:20 |
hmmmm |
i saw him make a couple of PRs, pretty good |
| 02:20 |
hmmmm |
he's done a lot of thinking about lighting as well |
| 02:20 |
VanessaE |
(juhdanad) |
| 02:20 |
hmmmm |
yeah that |
| 02:20 |
VanessaE |
so what's his plan? I missed that convo |
| 02:20 |
Zeno` |
7+1 was how it used to be in the past I very vaguely recall |
| 02:20 |
VanessaE |
(or didn't really "get it") |
| 02:20 |
Zeno` |
and there is an obscure comment that doesn't make sense in one of the old LUTs |
| 02:21 |
hmmmm |
well the fundamental issue with 7+1 is that it comingles separate light sources together |
| 02:21 |
VanessaE |
hmm. |
| 02:21 |
hmmmm |
the specific case where it falls apart is when you have a difference between day_light and night_light |
| 02:22 |
hmmmm |
like the day_light is darker than the night light |
| 02:22 |
Zeno` |
dat bad |
| 02:23 |
VanessaE |
well surely that's more a problem at the rendering stage than the nodedef? |
| 02:23 |
hmmmm |
err switch that around |
| 02:23 |
Zeno` |
-# We want 0 at light=0 and 255 at light=LIGHT_MAX |
| 02:23 |
Zeno` |
-LIGHT_MAX = 14 |
| 02:23 |
hmmmm |
if you have full day light, and then a dimmer night light |
| 02:24 |
Zeno` |
I have no idea what that means but it's probably ancient |
| 02:24 |
hmmmm |
then at night the air node would still be lit |
| 02:24 |
VanessaE |
ah |
| 02:25 |
hmmmm |
and before you say, "just check the nodedef for its light_source!" |
| 02:25 |
hmmmm |
consider if the node is air where light is spread, not a source itself |
| 02:25 |
Zeno` |
Why don't you just check the nodedef for its light_source? (KIDDING) |
| 02:25 |
VanessaE |
the only way to solve that is for all nodes to be dark, unless they have a light source, and add sunlight (or moonlight) at the rendering stage |
| 02:25 |
hmmmm |
yeah that's one thing |
| 02:26 |
hmmmm |
see, what you're doing there is removing a light source from having to be stored |
| 02:26 |
hmmmm |
the issue is that we have two distinct light sources |
| 02:26 |
VanessaE |
indeed |
| 02:26 |
hmmmm |
sun and artificial |
| 02:26 |
hmmmm |
sun is only "on" during the day, whereas artificial light sources are always-on |
| 02:27 |
hmmmm |
the way the lighting algorithms were imagined though is that one light "bank" is active during the day, and the other is "active" during the night, and you blend the two together |
| 02:27 |
hmmmm |
that's an equally valid way of looking at it but i think it all makes more sense if you consider the sun a light source that can be switched on and off, and the artificial light sources can be switched on and off |
| 02:28 |
hmmmm |
the artifical light sources all being combined into one light bank too is a simplification |
| 02:28 |
hmmmm |
really you should have X+1 number of light banks for a given mapnode, where X is the maximum number of light sources in a mapblock |
| 02:30 |
VanessaE |
mmmh |
| 02:37 |
VanessaE |
maybe I'm just too simplistic about this :P |
| 02:40 |
VanessaE |
but to me, only artificial sources ought affect the map, and that stored light should only be re-calculated and re-stored when a light source is added or removed. sun/moon should be added at the rendering stage for display, and added to the value loaded from the map when something queries the light level |
| 02:41 |
hmmmm |
but why can't artificial light sources be the same? |
| 02:41 |
VanessaE |
what do you mean? |
| 02:46 |
VanessaE |
any way you slice it, you have to iterate through the nodes in the vicinity of a light source when you add/remove it, and similarly, all those stored light values still have to be read and displayed. adding a single integer to them (and capping the result) seems like it shouldn't be too heavy |
| 02:47 |
VanessaE |
(well, two integers - since sun and moon are both visible for a short while at sunrise/set) |
| 02:48 |
Zeno` |
just nuke the moon |
| 02:48 |
VanessaE |
Zeno`: I think xkcd proved that that wouldn't actually have much effect :) |
| 02:48 |
Zeno` |
*sigh* |
| 02:48 |
VanessaE |
https://what-if.xkcd.com/13/ |
| 02:48 |
Zeno` |
oh well, it was a good idea at the time |
| 02:51 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: you'll have to bear with me if I sound totally stupid on this stuff. |
| 02:55 |
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| 03:01 |
hmmmm |
VanessaE: If the light sources were hardware then you would not need to store anything at all |
| 03:01 |
hmmmm |
since it'd all be computed at render time by the gpu |
| 03:02 |
VanessaE |
true, but we can't do that. |
| 03:02 |
hmmmm |
it knows the geometry, textures, position of the light, light characteristics, etc. |
| 03:03 |
hmmmm |
new year's in less than 2 hours |
| 03:03 |
VanessaE |
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2016/12/live_new_years_eve_2017_ball_drop_live_stream_from.html |
| 03:03 |
hmmmm |
i gotta bbl |
| 03:03 |
VanessaE |
here's a stream for it if you want to avoid ABC |
| 03:03 |
hmmmm |
lol |
| 03:03 |
hmmmm |
i'm not alone |
| 03:04 |
VanessaE |
(it ain't "new year's rockin' eve" but at least you can see the ball drop) |
| 03:04 |
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| 03:04 |
hmmmm |
love to stay and chat, but i am obligated to do party celebration type things now |
| 03:04 |
VanessaE |
cya |
| 03:04 |
VanessaE |
get drunk. |
| 03:04 |
VanessaE |
:P |
| 03:10 |
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| 06:01 |
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| 06:12 |
hmmmm |
happy new year! |
| 06:13 |
VanessaE |
happy new year :) |
| 06:23 |
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| 06:26 |
Zeno` |
err, you're 14.5 hours late! |
| 06:26 |
Zeno` |
but happy new year! |
| 06:26 |
hmmmm |
EST |
| 06:27 |
Zeno` |
est31, hmmmm is trying to contact you |
| 06:27 |
hmmmm |
pshh |
| 06:27 |
hmmmm |
happy new year to you to est31 |
| 06:27 |
hmmmm |
but i just had my new year an hour and 30 minutes ago |
| 06:28 |
VanessaE |
est31: happy new year, damn it :) |
| 06:28 |
* Zeno` |
bursts balloons |
| 06:32 |
hmmmm |
ok i'm really drunk now |
| 06:32 |
hmmmm |
time to start coding minetst |
| 06:32 |
hmmmm |
minetest |
| 06:32 |
* VanessaE |
raises a glass to hmmmm |
| 06:33 |
hmmmm |
or mebbe i pass out on this couch |
| 06:33 |
VanessaE |
I'm quite comfortably plastered :) |
| 06:33 |
hmmmm |
yeah i'm gonna cut it early tonight guys |
| 06:33 |
hmmmm |
so tired |
| 06:33 |
VanessaE |
ok, sleep well |
| 06:33 |
hmmmm |
fbbbbbbbbbbb |
| 06:33 |
Zeno` |
pass out well, hmmmm xD |
| 06:34 |
hmmmm |
i had 2 glasses of baileys |
| 06:34 |
hmmmm |
2 white russians |
| 06:34 |
Zeno` |
:-o |
| 06:34 |
hmmmm |
1 dogfish head 60 minute |
| 06:34 |
Zeno` |
those russians! |
| 06:34 |
hmmmm |
they hacked the elections bro |
| 06:34 |
hmmmm |
:) |
| 06:34 |
Zeno` |
lol |
| 06:34 |
hmmmm |
lol |
| 06:34 |
Zeno` |
I saw that |
| 06:34 |
hmmmm |
i'm being facetious |
| 06:34 |
VanessaE |
I've been consuming far more champagne and spark---^Wbarely glistening wine than I should :) |
| 06:34 |
hmmmm |
and then i had lots of champagne |
| 06:34 |
Zeno` |
and they had to do it on US soil instead of from Russia! |
| 06:34 |
hmmmm |
i think i drank more than half the bottle |
| 06:35 |
Zeno` |
so they sent the Hax0rs home |
| 06:35 |
Zeno` |
what a load of shite |
| 06:35 |
hmmmm |
well |
| 06:35 |
hmmmm |
i don't doubt they had really implanted malware into a DNC computer |
| 06:35 |
Zeno` |
doesn't the US do the same? |
| 06:35 |
hmmmm |
that's pretty par for the course for any sufficiently advanced nation state, nevermind a rival |
| 06:35 |
hmmmm |
yes it does |
| 06:35 |
Zeno` |
and AUS and... yeah |
| 06:35 |
hmmmm |
however leaked emails |
| 06:36 |
hmmmm |
not so much |
| 06:36 |
hmmmm |
anthony weiner was probably the source of the leak |
| 06:36 |
Zeno` |
yeah, he whines a lot so it most likely *was* him |
| 06:36 |
hmmmm |
and even so, if they were "unimportant" like the establishment democrats claimed, then it had no bearing on the results |
| 06:36 |
hmmmm |
so much bullshit |
| 06:36 |
hmmmm |
i can't stand it |
| 06:37 |
Zeno` |
I told a friend of mine the other day that the moon is made of cheese |
| 06:37 |
hmmmm |
remmeber back in 1976 when the USA rigged the australian election |
| 06:37 |
Zeno` |
(he's 6) |
| 06:37 |
hmmmm |
;; |
| 06:37 |
hmmmm |
lol |
| 06:37 |
Zeno` |
and he said "That's bullshit Craig" |
| 06:37 |
hmmmm |
thats the same age as my 2 lil nephews |
| 06:37 |
Zeno` |
and stomped off |
| 06:37 |
hmmmm |
they're so much fun at 6 |
| 06:37 |
Zeno` |
yeah hehhe |
| 06:37 |
hmmmm |
lol |
| 06:38 |
hmmmm |
alright really forreal now later m8 |
| 06:38 |
hmmmm |
m80 |
| 06:39 |
diemartin |
m79 works better |
| 06:39 |
diemartin |
at least for mt code |
| 06:40 |
Zeno` |
night |
| 06:40 |
diemartin |
aaaaand Im on the hiiiiighway to helllll... or something |
| 06:41 |
Zeno` |
lol |
| 06:41 |
* Zeno` |
whorls his cowboy hat around his head |
| 06:42 |
Zeno` |
I think I'm the only one sober and I've had 2 beers |
| 06:42 |
Zeno` |
err wait... does that mean I'm not sober |
| 06:43 |
diemartin |
o sht this is dev sorry |
| 06:43 |
Zeno` |
lol |
| 06:45 |
* OldCoder |
assumes not sober is off topic |
| 06:46 |
VanessaE |
OldCoder: it's new year's morning. drunk is quite on-topic for the moment :) |
| 06:48 |
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| 06:48 |
Zeno` |
even VE is drunk |
| 06:49 |
Zeno` |
this is quite an event |
| 06:49 |
OldCoder |
VanessaE, Seasons Greetings to you |
| 06:50 |
diemartin |
bah, an event would be z |
| 06:50 |
diemartin |
Ve not drunk |
| 06:50 |
VanessaE |
my friend, I am drunk as two skunks :D |
| 06:50 |
OldCoder |
Two are drunker than one? |
| 06:51 |
* OldCoder |
is sleepy and not sure of the math |
| 06:51 |
VanessaE |
yes :) |
| 06:51 |
OldCoder |
Very well! |
| 06:51 |
* OldCoder |
has suspended beer entirely. But was handed Grand Marnier (spelling) tonight. |
| 06:52 |
OldCoder |
It is hard to describe. Similar to liquid marmalade that is intoxicating. |
| 06:59 |
est31 |
HAPPY NEW YEAR |
| 06:59 |
est31 |
everyone |
| 06:59 |
est31 |
(its 8 AM in my country lol) |
| 06:59 |
VanessaE |
happy new year, est31 |
| 07:21 |
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| 10:09 |
nrzkt |
happy new year 2017, may minetest be less laggy and cheated than before :) |
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| 14:09 |
nrzkt |
i'm fixing the breath cheat by backporting one fix from my fork, i will provide a PR soon. For HP i have it too except for falling |
| 14:27 |
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| 14:30 |
sfan5 |
nrzkt: you mean doing breath server-side? |
| 14:31 |
nrzkt |
ofc |
| 14:31 |
nrzkt |
it's quite easy i already have the fix, just need to fix one crash & check the creative mode |
| 14:31 |
nrzkt |
i also has it for HP (partially), i just need to backport it |
| 14:36 |
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| 14:36 |
VanessaE |
fall damage should be easy to enforce server-side also. |
| 14:36 |
juhdanad |
Hi and happy new year to all! |
| 14:37 |
VanessaE |
happy new year, juhdanad |
| 14:37 |
juhdanad |
I have a suggestion: lighting would be less controversial if plants grew on dimmer light levels too, but with less probability. |
| 14:37 |
nrzkt |
VanessaE, it's not the easiest because you don't have the client physics servers side |
| 14:39 |
VanessaE |
nrzkt: seems to me that you can at least detect when the client "should" have hit something, and figure the time from the last reported position to there. short enough time for the distance == kill the player |
| 14:39 |
VanessaE |
(I wouldn't bother trying to calculate actual damage, so much as being sure they're dead) |
| 14:39 |
nrzkt |
it's less simple than that |
| 14:39 |
nrzkt |
imagine you respawn => kill, you teleport using a ingame object => kill, etc |
| 14:40 |
nrzkt |
you take a lift => kill |
| 14:40 |
VanessaE |
true but I assume you'd filter out things like that |
| 14:40 |
VanessaE |
anything involving a teleport |
| 14:40 |
nrzkt |
yes, then not simple. |
| 14:41 |
VanessaE |
maybe not "simple" but surely doable |
| 14:41 |
Calinou |
<VanessaE> fall damage should be easy to enforce server-side also. |
| 14:41 |
Calinou |
though it can be incorrect |
| 14:41 |
Calinou |
especially since player positions are sent only 10 times a second |
| 14:41 |
Calinou |
(it should be accurate enough for most use cases though) |
| 14:42 |
VanessaE |
Calinou: that's why I figured only look for obvious kills |
| 14:42 |
VanessaE |
you don't have to have a perfect solution, just good enough to make the client modification pointless |
| 14:43 |
nrzkt |
no a pefect solution is required here due to different mod possibilities |
| 14:46 |
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| 15:14 |
nrzkt |
here is the first preview: #4978 |
| 15:14 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4978 -- Breath cheat fix: server side by nerzhul |
| 15:14 |
nrzkt |
i need to restore the old behaviour for old servers to prevent cheating on non updated servers... lol |
| 15:16 |
juhdanad |
Thanks for working on this, it is a serious exploit. |
| 15:17 |
nrzkt |
juhdanad, atm it's only breaht, HP a little bit more complicated but i already did the main part |
| 15:18 |
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| 15:20 |
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| 15:21 |
est31 |
okay, I think I have a job offer for minetest core devs |
| 15:21 |
est31 |
there is a young company, they want to use minetest for teaching kids |
| 15:22 |
est31 |
and it seems they are going forward with minetest, and need someone to adapt it to their needs |
| 15:22 |
est31 |
if you are interested, contact me via pm |
| 15:23 |
est31 |
their website: http://kidscode.com |
| 15:24 |
est31 |
(you might know them from a forum post) |
| 15:25 |
octacian |
huh, interesting. and I did see the forums post. too bad I don't know C++ otherwise I might be interested in helping... |
| 15:25 |
nrzkt |
est31, interesting but what are their needs with MT ? |
| 15:26 |
juhdanad |
I assume this would be a new fork. May the changes be pulled back to the main branch? |
| 15:26 |
est31 |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxOg2574OEU |
| 15:28 |
nrzkt |
sfan5, did you have the client version stats ? and server version stats? could be interesting to know |
| 15:28 |
sfan5 |
only client version stats here -> https://kitsunemimi.pw/tmp/ |
| 15:28 |
est31 |
nrzkt: server version stats: https://gist.github.com/est31/66602d589b225b27afd5 |
| 15:29 |
est31 |
also very easy to re-do |
| 15:29 |
est31 |
(no privileged access to server infra needed) |
| 15:30 |
nrzkt |
if we add anticheat the server version is very important to ensure it's working, and client version too |
| 15:31 |
sfan5 |
well it'd need a protocol bump |
| 15:31 |
octacian |
est31: I still don't quite get what MT things would need to be adapted from the video. |
| 15:31 |
nrzkt |
sfan5, i did it |
| 15:31 |
nrzkt |
it's forced pushed |
| 15:32 |
nrzkt |
i saw the minimum protocol version is 13... maybe it could be interesting to raise this for next release |
| 15:32 |
nrzkt |
TOSERVER_BREATH was added in v21 of the protocol in 2013 |
| 15:33 |
nrzkt |
maybe we can raise minimum version to at lease 21 |
| 15:33 |
nrzkt |
least* |
| 15:33 |
nrzkt |
better should be protocol v23 which added TOSERVER_CLIENT_READY apr2014 |
| 15:33 |
nrzkt |
more than 2 years ago |
| 15:34 |
nore |
btw, do we have the code of this hacked client or not? |
| 15:34 |
nrzkt |
nore Zeno showed me and it was very simple it comment the shitty client part for damaged & breath, and taht's all |
| 15:35 |
nore |
nrzkt: well, these were not all the hacks, were they? |
| 15:35 |
est31 |
excerpt from the email: |
| 15:35 |
est31 |
The first assignment is likely to be a audit with a plan to correct Minetest pitfalls and move to a platform which is as operational and reliable for schools as possible. If we could have one or two of the main developers working with us for this, it would be really great. |
| 15:35 |
nrzkt |
not a server hack, just a protocol standard usage :p |
| 15:35 |
nrzkt |
hmmm there is one bug to fix with my pr |
| 15:36 |
nrzkt |
there is an underflow somewhere |
| 15:37 |
nrzkt |
okay fixed |
| 15:37 |
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| 15:38 |
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| 15:39 |
sfan5 |
nore: i have also read the changed source, it's mainly patching the client to ignore what the server says |
| 15:40 |
sfan5 |
that is mostly useless though since things like dieing, tool wear and punch damage are server-side |
| 15:40 |
nore |
yeah |
| 15:41 |
nore |
but I guess the client can just send its position again after "dieing", can't it? |
| 15:41 |
sfan5 |
the server ignores any interaction or movement when the player is dead |
| 15:42 |
nore |
of course, but what I meant is that the client asks for respawn, and then, sends its old position again |
| 15:42 |
sfan5 |
that would cause the "moved too fast" check to trigger |
| 15:43 |
nore |
hmm |
| 15:43 |
nrzkt |
yes, for tools it's already prevented by server |
| 15:43 |
nrzkt |
only remaining "bugs" are breath & HP |
| 15:43 |
nore |
wasn't it often disabled on servers because it triggered too often? |
| 15:43 |
nrzkt |
please review #4978 and tell me |
| 15:43 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4978 -- Breath cheat fix: server side by nerzhul |
| 15:44 |
sfan5 |
if you do disable_anticheat = true then don't come complaining about cheaters |
| 15:44 |
sfan5 |
also would be nice if someone could review #4952 |
| 15:44 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4952 -- TileAnimation refactor & 2D sheet animation by sfan5 |
| 15:48 |
nrzkt |
sfan5, why did you remove the blocker thing ? cheating is a blocking issue |
| 15:49 |
sfan5 |
blocker label only makes sense when there's a release soon |
| 15:49 |
est31 |
yeah |
| 15:49 |
est31 |
what sfan5 said |
| 15:49 |
sfan5 |
high priority is a better label for that purpose |
| 15:49 |
est31 |
++ |
| 15:49 |
nrzkt |
okay :) |
| 15:49 |
nrzkt |
est31, sfan5 please test & review & merge :p |
| 15:53 |
Fixer |
Happy New Year! https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0_xARzWIAEhvqE.jpg:large |
| 15:56 |
nrzkt |
est31, nore sfan5 => #4679 |
| 15:56 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4679 -- Add unittests to test player saving/loading by nerzhul |
| 15:56 |
nrzkt |
#4979 sorry |
| 15:56 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4979 -- Raise minimum protocol version to 23. by nerzhul |
| 16:00 |
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| 16:04 |
paramat |
nore sfan5 sofar please can anyone approve game#1481 ? very much needed |
| 16:04 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1481 -- Default: More generous meselamp recipe by paramat |
| 16:05 |
juhdanad |
I know I wrote that but maybe you did not notice: lighting would be less controversial if plants grew on dimmer light levels too, but with less probability. |
| 16:05 |
juhdanad |
*wrote that earlier |
| 16:07 |
paramat |
yes i saw, i'm not keen |
| 16:10 |
paramat |
torches are staying at 13, so you would then be able to grow stuff with torches, which has never been allowed in MT, quite rightly |
| 16:11 |
juhdanad |
Sorry, I just wanted to help... |
| 16:11 |
paramat |
no problem :] |
| 16:31 |
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| 18:39 |
Fixer |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/4967 this is niiice one |
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| 20:33 |
nrzkt |
est31, is this an approval for #4978 ? i'm fixing the point you noticed and used the MYMIN mentionned by Krock |
| 20:33 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4978 -- Breath cheat fix: server side by nerzhul |
| 20:34 |
est31 |
generally the code looks good but I'm not sure whether the concept is good |
| 20:34 |
est31 |
err |
| 20:34 |
est31 |
it is sorry |
| 20:34 |
est31 |
+1 |
| 20:35 |
nrzkt |
thanks :) |
| 20:36 |
nrzkt |
i will merge it later this evening, except if somebody wants to do it before, then he is free :) |
| 20:42 |
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| 20:48 |
sfan5 |
est31: please review #4952 if you have time |
| 20:48 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4952 -- TileAnimation refactor & 2D sheet animation by sfan5 |
| 20:49 |
sfan5 |
if a protocol bump is happening anyway then it would make sense to merge that too |
| 20:50 |
est31 |
sfan5: -1 sorry, 2d sheet animation is bad imo |
| 20:51 |
sfan5 |
because? |
| 20:51 |
est31 |
whats the point |
| 20:51 |
est31 |
also, its more complicated format |
| 20:51 |
sfan5 |
it's |
| 20:51 |
sfan5 |
* requested by modders |
| 20:52 |
sfan5 |
* more common in general |
| 20:52 |
sfan5 |
* nicer to edit (https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/4774#issuecomment-262310015) |
| 20:54 |
est31 |
mhh |
| 20:54 |
sfan5 |
it doesn't hurt to support it even if it is minimally more complicated |
| 20:54 |
est31 |
I think I'll stay neutral in the discussion |
| 20:56 |
sfan5 |
would still be nice if you could review the code |
| 21:11 |
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| 22:11 |
nrzkt |
rubenwardy, sfan5 fixed the remaining style/typo fixes |
| 22:15 |
nrzkt |
if no more objections or fixes, i will merge that in ~30min |
| 22:25 |
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| 22:53 |
sfan5 |
hm |
| 22:54 |
sfan5 |
nrzkt: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/4978/files#diff-2e027fdc3655b827284be99af7143dfbL196 why is that removed |
| 22:54 |
sfan5 |
the client might still need to send breath packets to older servers |
| 22:56 |
nrzkt |
sfan5, oops, thanks for pointing this, it doesn't break the behaviour but make the packet unreliable only |
| 22:56 |
nrzkt |
i push the fix now, forgot it |
| 22:56 |
nrzkt |
i forgot to cancel this after my first push |
| 22:58 |
nrzkt |
pushed |
| 22:58 |
nrzkt |
sfan5, don't hesitate to add your opinion on #4979 |
| 22:58 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4979 -- Raise minimum protocol version to 23. by nerzhul |
| 22:59 |
sfan5 |
sure |
| 23:15 |
rubenwardy |
Merging game#1474 in 15... |
| 23:15 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1474 -- decrease the value of gunpowder for trails by DS-Minetest |
| 23:16 |
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| 23:20 |
est31 |
sfan5: do you have an idea what the submitter wants? |
| 23:20 |
est31 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4980 |
| 23:20 |
est31 |
we don't use C++14, not even C++11 |
| 23:20 |
sfan5 |
well dunno |
| 23:20 |
sfan5 |
but this https://github.com/minetest/minetestmapper/blob/master/.travis.yml#L16L17 |
| 23:21 |
sfan5 |
it helps with testing the C++11 code paths i guess |
| 23:21 |
est31 |
yeah |
| 23:21 |
est31 |
also, we dont use experimental/filesystem |
| 23:21 |
est31 |
its a bit weird because I've first thought this was some automated bot |
| 23:22 |
sfan5 |
same |
| 23:22 |
est31 |
idk, opening issues in all repos that have c++ and travis |
| 23:22 |
est31 |
but we are the only repo to get a report |
| 23:25 |
nrzkt |
i think this is a bot |
| 23:26 |
rubenwardy |
it failed the turing test for me as well :) |
| 23:37 |
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| 23:40 |
rubenwardy |
Merging... |
| 23:41 |
rubenwardy |
done |
| 23:41 |
VanessaE |
you merged in a turing test? |
| 23:43 |
rubenwardy |
:P game#1474 |
| 23:43 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1474 -- decrease the value of gunpowder for trails by DS-Minetest |
| 23:43 |
Fixer |
about time, I never seen any trails on actual servers |
| 23:44 |
sfan5 |
that might be because tnt is disabled by default in mp |
| 23:45 |
Fixer |
on servers I played it was enabled |
| 23:45 |
rubenwardy |
What does "Adoption Needed" in MTG mean? |
| 23:45 |
Fixer |
maintainer is needed? |
| 23:47 |
rubenwardy |
Yeah, that would make sense as to why there's 0 open or closed tickets with it on |
