| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:17 |
|
Wayward_Tab joined #minetest-dev |
| 00:32 |
hmmmm |
looks good |
| 00:33 |
|
jin_xi joined #minetest-dev |
| 00:35 |
paramat |
okay. PR is updated and waiting for checks #2713 |
| 00:35 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2713 -- Mgv5/v7: Fix generateBiomes biome recalculation logic, improve code by paramat |
| 00:36 |
hmmmm |
BIOMEGEN_BASE can collide |
| 00:36 |
hmmmm |
BIOMEGEN_V7_BASE and such |
| 00:37 |
hmmmm |
if you include both mapgen_v7.h and mapgen_v5.h it would fail to build |
| 00:38 |
paramat |
aha |
| 00:38 |
paramat |
will fix |
| 00:39 |
|
Fritigern joined #minetest-dev |
| 00:39 |
hmmmm |
paramat, do you know if in minecraft that if you walk into a different biome, will the grass nodes of the other biome you just left change in color too? |
| 00:40 |
paramat |
no idea, that seems wrong |
| 00:41 |
paramat |
well i doubt it, i would notice that watching MC videos |
| 00:41 |
hmmmm |
how on earth does the biome-specific grass tinting work then |
| 00:42 |
hmmmm |
is it gradual or something? how about the sky color |
| 00:45 |
paramat |
not too sure, think grass colour dither-blends like ours |
| 00:45 |
hmmmm |
anyway i was thinking for a while |
| 00:45 |
hmmmm |
terrain biomes are hard |
| 00:46 |
hmmmm |
they're easy for minecraft because they have *one* map generator |
| 00:46 |
hmmmm |
but in a general sense this is much more technically challenging than i had ever imagined |
| 00:46 |
nolsen |
Where is the player body movement located? |
| 00:47 |
hmmmm |
although I don't particularily like this, it may possibly make the most sense to have each mapgen provide terrain hints like i was saying before |
| 00:47 |
hmmmm |
I tried a bunch of things like flood filling closed regions of terrain from edge detection |
| 00:47 |
hmmmm |
that failed miserably |
| 00:49 |
hmmmm |
nolsen, try content_cao.cpp |
| 00:50 |
hmmmm |
rather, sao i meant |
| 00:58 |
paramat |
okay PR updated |
| 01:01 |
|
cib0 joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:01 |
nolsen |
#2716 |
| 01:01 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2716 -- Make heads movable when character is moving. |
| 01:02 |
nolsen |
s/character moving/character looking |
| 01:02 |
nolsen |
erm s/character is moving/character is looking |
| 01:03 |
paramat |
i'd love head movement as in MC |
| 01:03 |
paramat |
adds so much humour and character |
| 01:03 |
nolsen |
It'll be creepy in real life if you couldn't move your head. |
| 01:03 |
hmmmm |
lolol |
| 01:03 |
nolsen |
"I can't find my cup" |
| 01:03 |
hmmmm |
minetest needs a LOT more higher priority work than that |
| 01:03 |
hmmmm |
:| |
| 01:04 |
hmmmm |
anyway |
| 01:04 |
hmmmm |
paramat: looks good to me |
| 01:04 |
nolsen |
It'll be like turning around in the old resident evil, that would be creeper. |
| 01:04 |
nolsen |
s/creeper/creepy |
| 01:04 |
paramat |
thanks |
| 01:04 |
hmmmm |
dunno if this is considered weird or not |
| 01:05 |
hmmmm |
but sometimes i talk to myself in comments |
| 01:05 |
hmmmm |
i ended up writing this exhaustive spiel on what we could do about terrain biomes |
| 01:05 |
paramat |
hmmmmm do you have an opinion on making mgv6 snowbiomes enabled by default? i assume if i increase biome noise spread in v6.cpp this will not break old worlds.. |
| 01:05 |
hmmmm |
i'll probably clean it up and make a mailing list post about it |
| 01:05 |
nolsen |
I would pull request with head movement, but I'm not sure what language do I need to learn. |
| 01:05 |
hmmmm |
paramat, it won't break anything, no |
| 01:05 |
nolsen |
or where to add it. |
| 01:06 |
hmmmm |
nolsen: lol. if you don't know C++, you have an extremely long way ahead of you |
| 01:06 |
paramat |
nah not weird, writng you thoughts is useful |
| 01:06 |
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Fritigern joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:06 |
paramat |
(your) |
| 01:06 |
hmmmm |
having the programming mindset is one huge prerequisite |
| 01:06 |
hmmmm |
knowing C++ well /enough/ is another huge prerequisite |
| 01:07 |
hmmmm |
then, understanding how minetest works is even bigger |
| 01:07 |
hmmmm |
without all those three, sorry to say this, you probably won't get very far in core development |
| 01:07 |
hmmmm |
:/ |
| 01:07 |
nolsen |
Meh, minetest_game is more easier. |
| 01:07 |
nolsen |
It's lua. |
| 01:08 |
hmmmm |
and by the way, adding head movement is not something trivial by any means |
| 01:08 |
nolsen |
No but it would be nice. |
| 01:08 |
nolsen |
oh I know what you mean. |
| 01:09 |
hmmmm |
have a look at content_cao.cpp, content_sao.cpp, player movement network packets |
| 01:09 |
hmmmm |
the gist of what you want to do is include player head pitch/roll/yaw along with movement packets |
| 01:09 |
nolsen |
I thought of just doing a different issue which is kicking users for going to fast which I discovered earlier. |
| 01:10 |
hmmmm |
and then figure out an efficient scheme to decide when to send head movements |
| 01:10 |
nolsen |
There is a way to go over a certain walk speed and barely get caught by the server and get pos reset. |
| 01:10 |
hmmmm |
and then modify SmoothTranslator to work on the head mesh |
| 01:11 |
Wayward_Tab |
I heard head movement was currently limited by irrlicht...? |
| 01:11 |
hmmmm |
i don't see why |
| 01:11 |
Wayward_Tab |
Huh |
| 01:11 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: animation blending. |
| 01:11 |
VanessaE |
apparently it's very tricky to blend a plain old animation with manual bone positioning. |
| 01:11 |
nolsen |
Imagine your character's head staring INTO YOUR SOUL. |
| 01:11 |
nolsen |
jk |
| 01:12 |
VanessaE |
also, kaeza has done head movement before |
| 01:12 |
hmmmm |
ahh |
| 01:12 |
VanessaE |
entirely server-side from what I remember |
| 01:12 |
VanessaE |
it caused a huge network load but it was just proof-of-contept |
| 01:12 |
VanessaE |
er concept* |
| 01:12 |
hmmmm |
did he make the player head a separate SAO? |
| 01:12 |
VanessaE |
I don't remember how he did it |
| 01:13 |
VanessaE |
that MIGHT have been it though |
| 01:13 |
hmmmm |
yeah that sounds the simplest but obviously hacky as shit |
| 01:13 |
VanessaE |
yep |
| 01:13 |
nolsen |
I also know a few more ideas to add to Minetest :P |
| 01:13 |
VanessaE |
by "huge network load" I mean a continuous 100 kB/sec stream :) |
| 01:13 |
hmmmm |
nolsen, we have enough idea guys. we need more doer guys |
| 01:13 |
hmmmm |
:) |
| 01:14 |
nolsen |
hmmmm: Do you have enough idea+++...++++ guys? |
| 01:14 |
hmmmm |
no idea what that is |
| 01:15 |
hmmmm |
VanessaE: I can understand high network load if they're all SAO updates every single server tick |
| 01:15 |
hmmmm |
if it's integrated better with regular player movement, you shouldn't have that problem |
| 01:15 |
VanessaE |
yep, I think was something very much along those lines. |
| 01:15 |
VanessaE |
+it |
| 01:15 |
hmmmm |
well |
| 01:15 |
hmmmm |
i think it's technically plausible |
| 01:15 |
VanessaE |
but the whole point was to demonstrate that a movable head is possible :) |
| 01:16 |
hmmmm |
the animation blending thing, we'd have to probably split the head and body into separate meshes |
| 01:16 |
VanessaE |
deciding when to turn the head versus the body is easy: always turn the head, unless the player *walks*, then turn the body and head to follow. |
| 01:16 |
paramat |
now pushing 2713 |
| 01:16 |
VanessaE |
yeah, splitting them wouldn't be too hard - model-wise it's easy to UV-map the head from the same texture file as the body, too |
| 01:16 |
VanessaE |
code-wise is a different matter... |
| 01:17 |
hmmmm |
attaching multiple meshes to a single activeobject? |
| 01:17 |
hmmmm |
it shouldn't be too hard |
| 01:17 |
nolsen |
Well the head has a bit of a head movement |
| 01:17 |
nolsen |
when you walk... |
| 01:17 |
hmmmm |
besides, i can see other potential uses for it |
| 01:17 |
VanessaE |
nolsen: that's part of the walk animation |
| 01:18 |
nolsen |
Though I'm not sure if that's realistic |
| 01:18 |
nolsen |
Because I don't walk around with my head as a fish |
| 01:18 |
VanessaE |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTk8ktb466g |
| 01:18 |
VanessaE |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgDcawUioeY |
| 01:18 |
VanessaE |
those are all I could find from kaeza's original work |
| 01:18 |
VanessaE |
obviously "try2" is the working one. |
| 01:19 |
nolsen |
nvm people do walk like their head is a fish: http://www.monkeyfacenews.com/.a/6a0120a5c94e03970b015432ffa442970c-pi |
| 01:19 |
nolsen |
jk |
| 01:22 |
nolsen |
Does anyone notice that fast move only works when flying? |
| 01:22 |
nolsen |
which sounds pointless. |
| 01:22 |
VanessaE |
nolsen: hold "e" to run fast |
| 01:22 |
VanessaE |
(after you turn fast mode on) |
| 01:23 |
VanessaE |
w+e = run forward fast, s+e = run backward, etc. |
| 01:23 |
paramat |
done. my commit message ended up as one line somehow |
| 01:24 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: I wonder if this is useful: https://github.com/kaeza/minetest-animplus/blob/master/init.lua |
| 01:24 |
hmmmm |
it could be.. shrug |
| 01:25 |
VanessaE |
anyway that's all I got :) |
| 01:25 |
VanessaE |
I'll try to make a point to ask next time I see him. |
| 01:25 |
VanessaE |
bbl |
| 01:25 |
nolsen |
I think Minetest needs to implemint Python! :D |
| 01:25 |
nolsen |
Python! Python! Python! |
| 01:25 |
hmmmm |
sounds great |
| 01:25 |
hmmmm |
you gonna do it? |
| 01:25 |
nolsen |
Because that is the only language I am really great at. |
| 01:25 |
nolsen |
Uhh no. |
| 01:26 |
hmmmm |
anyway |
| 01:26 |
hmmmm |
paramat: dwell on the philosophical question of how we know the difference between a pond and an ocean |
| 01:26 |
nolsen |
how would you impleiment python anyways? |
| 01:27 |
paramat |
that's like a zen koan |
| 01:27 |
hmmmm |
nolsen: you'd start out by adding the necessary dependency things in CMakeLists.txt, then create a new script/ subdirectory, and basically copy everything there, except do it using the python interpreter instead of lua |
| 01:27 |
hmmmm |
and then make a copy of all the functionality of builtin/ |
| 01:28 |
hmmmm |
8) minetest is loosely coupled to lua |
| 01:28 |
hmmmm |
paramat: if you can answer that question, then we have a winner |
| 01:28 |
nolsen |
So basicly create minetest_game |
| 01:29 |
hmmmm |
my answer to it is that we can't know |
| 01:30 |
hmmmm |
an ocean is a large body of water that may extend throughout several generated chunks |
| 01:30 |
hmmmm |
a pond is a body of water that may extend throughout several generated chunks as well |
| 01:30 |
hmmmm |
so the only possible way to discriminate against the types of bodies of water is depth |
| 01:31 |
hmmmm |
we'd say something is an ocean biome if it has an elevation between, say, -14 and -300, or something. i don't know |
| 01:31 |
hmmmm |
and then -14 to -5 is what, a lake? |
| 01:31 |
hmmmm |
then how is that any different from shore |
| 01:33 |
hmmmm |
and then how do you tell if something is an island |
| 01:33 |
hmmmm |
you can't do any of these things unless you have the rough layout of the entire map beforehand. with minecraft they do have this |
| 01:33 |
hmmmm |
which, again, constrains you to a very specific style of map generation |
| 01:34 |
hmmmm |
i'm beginning to wonder if this pursuit is a waste of time |
| 01:35 |
hmmmm |
or maybe I need to increase the coupling between biomes and mapgens |
| 01:35 |
nolsen |
hmmmm: What about the implemintation of having dropped items destroied by lava. |
| 01:36 |
nolsen |
Like in Minecraft? |
| 01:36 |
nolsen |
That is something I might could do. |
| 01:36 |
hmmmm |
that sounds like a minetest_game thing |
| 01:37 |
nolsen |
I could also have torches match the same light level given as MC |
| 01:38 |
hmmmm |
ehh |
| 01:38 |
nolsen |
Because torches in game appear to be low lighted items |
| 01:38 |
nolsen |
I have to place more than in MC |
| 01:38 |
nolsen |
According to Minecraft, it gives 14 light |
| 01:38 |
hmmmm |
are these things you personally want, or things you think minetest is lacking |
| 01:38 |
* nolsen |
checks Mine_test |
| 01:38 |
nolsen |
minetest is lacking. |
| 01:39 |
nolsen |
Though I think it would be an improvement. |
| 01:39 |
nolsen |
A tweak I guess. |
| 01:39 |
hmmmm |
if you just want to contribute to minetest, take a look at the issue tracker on github |
| 01:41 |
nolsen |
It looks easy to tweak all the things to match minecraft, like block resistance against TNT. |
| 01:41 |
hmmmm |
you realize that the goal isn't to match minecraft, correct? |
| 01:42 |
hmmmm |
anyway, people have made minecraft clone games for minetest |
| 01:42 |
hmmmm |
there are several iirc, ask vanessae about those. |
| 01:42 |
nolsen |
hmmmm: oh no. |
| 01:43 |
paramat |
ocean/pond thing: i came up with 'it's not worth even trying' |
| 01:43 |
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| 01:44 |
hmmmm |
ocean vs. pond, island vs. land mass |
| 01:44 |
hmmmm |
terrain biome hints should be on a per-mapgen basis |
| 01:44 |
nolsen |
island is a miniture version of land, except the outsides are covered with water. |
| 01:44 |
nolsen |
There you go :P |
| 01:44 |
hmmmm |
there will clearly be a couple that are common to all mapgens |
| 01:45 |
nolsen |
pond is a miniture and shallow version of a ocean. |
| 01:45 |
nolsen |
and there you go |
| 01:45 |
nolsen |
the answers. |
| 01:45 |
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| 01:45 |
hmmmm |
lol |
| 01:45 |
nolsen |
s/shallow/shallower |
| 01:45 |
hmmmm |
nolsen just answered the tough technical questions |
| 01:45 |
hmmmm |
anyway |
| 01:45 |
nolsen |
My cat won't shut up ._. |
| 01:45 |
hmmmm |
we can't figure out what an island is or isn't with perlin noise based mapgens |
| 01:45 |
nolsen |
<nolsen> island is a miniture version of land, except the outsides are covered with water. |
| 01:46 |
hmmmm |
okay, thanks. |
| 01:46 |
hmmmm |
you don't understand the issues |
| 01:46 |
nolsen |
like hawaii. |
| 01:46 |
nolsen |
Hawaii is an island, correct? |
| 01:46 |
hmmmm |
dunno |
| 01:46 |
hmmmm |
more like a group of islands |
| 01:46 |
nolsen |
yea. |
| 01:46 |
hmmmm |
but how do you know that hawaii is an island, but australia isn't? |
| 01:46 |
nolsen |
australia is an island |
| 01:46 |
hmmmm |
what about the americas |
| 01:47 |
hmmmm |
are the americas an island? |
| 01:47 |
nolsen |
now what are land is like uhh iraq? |
| 01:47 |
* nolsen |
looks at the globe |
| 01:47 |
paramat |
minetest has better mapgen than MC anyway |
| 01:47 |
hmmmm |
in any case, #minetest-dev is for serious discussion only |
| 01:47 |
hmmmm |
banter should be kept in #minetest |
| 01:47 |
hmmmm |
so right |
| 01:47 |
nolsen |
banter? |
| 01:48 |
hmmmm |
basically i came to the conclusion that not only is the level of effort too high to distinguish islands from land masses and oceans from ponds, it's tecnhically impossible due to the chunking behavior |
| 01:48 |
paramat |
yes |
| 01:48 |
nolsen |
hmmmm: I got the answer! |
| 01:48 |
hmmmm |
that doesn't mean there can be no island or ocean biome hints ever |
| 01:49 |
nolsen |
Land mass is basicly like a country that isn't surrended by an ocean. |
| 01:49 |
nolsen |
or area |
| 01:49 |
hmmmm |
they would only be available in PRNG fractal point cloud based mapgens like minecraft |
| 01:49 |
hmmmm |
people often repeat that minecraft has a perlin noise generated world, but that's only 30% true |
| 01:49 |
hmmmm |
perlin noise is used for the specifics |
| 01:49 |
hmmmm |
the overall land shape is formed with a very different algorithm |
| 01:50 |
nolsen |
Well let's look at minecraft source code :P |
| 01:50 |
paramat |
that's why i find MC's large scale structure lacking |
| 01:50 |
hmmmm |
nolsen: again, this channel is for serious discussion only |
| 01:51 |
hmmmm |
yeah. MC overuses uniform RNGs and things that are supposed to be random are more or less noisy, but predictable |
| 01:51 |
hmmmm |
if they had implemented a biased RNG things would perhaps be more interesting |
| 01:51 |
hmmmm |
that's still no reason to jump ship and use their algorithm |
| 01:52 |
paramat |
i may be wrong but MC seems like a too-regular patchwork of terrain types, the biome shapes dictate the large scale terrain structure, so it's boring |
| 01:52 |
hmmmm |
well |
| 01:53 |
hmmmm |
sorta |
| 01:53 |
hmmmm |
or rather, no, you're right |
| 01:53 |
hmmmm |
biomes dictate everything |
| 01:53 |
hmmmm |
we explicitly say that's a horrible idea, give me freedom or give me death |
| 01:54 |
hmmmm |
and accept the inherent technical challenges in generalizing something like this |
| 01:54 |
paramat |
XL terrain structure should come first and be free, then choose biome on heat/humidity/altitude/whatever |
| 01:55 |
hmmmm |
the biome-first approach has its merits though |
| 01:55 |
hmmmm |
you're able to choose your own large overall shape |
| 01:55 |
paramat |
next i want to try continental scale variation on a scale of ~16000 |
| 01:56 |
hmmmm |
if you want large continents, no problem, just lower the rarity of land |
| 01:56 |
hmmmm |
but then again you could argue that we can do the same by varying water_level |
| 01:56 |
rom1504 |
is there any point to having such big map ? |
| 01:56 |
hmmmm |
sure |
| 01:57 |
paramat |
wow someone thinks it's big! |
| 01:57 |
rom1504 |
it would be mainly empty of player and player constructions |
| 01:57 |
hmmmm |
that's a change from the usual "I teleported to the map edge and I don't think it's big enough now!" |
| 01:58 |
hmmmm |
rom1504, there's a mod to limit world size if i recall right |
| 01:58 |
paramat |
it's only just big enough for my ideas |
| 01:58 |
rom1504 |
hmm ok |
| 01:58 |
hmmmm |
so let's imagine this from an end user's perspective |
| 01:59 |
hmmmm |
we write this biome pack with all these cool biomes and decorations |
| 01:59 |
hmmmm |
then some people decide to use cooldude23's lua mapgen mod |
| 01:59 |
hmmmm |
all of a sudden islands aren't detected as well as oceans |
| 01:59 |
hmmmm |
is this inherently bad? |
| 02:00 |
rom1504 |
I guess the point of a big map might be something like http://overviewer.org/wow/#/-2410/64/6763/-9/0/0 |
| 02:02 |
hmmmm |
that looks pretty cool |
| 02:02 |
hmmmm |
i'd like to generate something like that |
| 02:02 |
nolsen |
hmmmm: Hmm, are you supposed to be able to see in one's locked chest? |
| 02:03 |
hmmmm |
i guess |
| 02:03 |
nolsen |
Because I originally couldn't now I can for some reason |
| 02:04 |
nolsen |
oh that was an owned chest |
| 02:04 |
nolsen |
not locked |
| 02:06 |
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| 02:06 |
paramat |
nolsen that sort of subject is for minetest channel not here |
| 02:07 |
nolsen |
I thought this channel is about bugs/errors |
| 02:07 |
nolsen |
and development |
| 02:11 |
paramat |
hmmmmm i remember you think there's too many rivers in mgv7. i'm thinking of doubling ridge_uwater spread to 1000 and adding an octave, this will also reduce small-scale looping, more long distance routes |
| 02:13 |
paramat |
anyway for snowbiomes i'll wait for more feedback but i think i will make them default and increase biome spread to 500 to match humidity spread |
| 02:39 |
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| 02:53 |
multicoder |
Hello, what would cause minetest.get_us_time to return nill? |
| 02:53 |
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| 03:03 |
hmmmm |
multicoder, it never returns nil |
| 03:04 |
hmmmm |
it always returns a number |
| 03:04 |
hmmmm |
if it returns nil, either there's something wrong with your mod or there's a major internal bug somewhere |
| 03:27 |
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| 05:20 |
paramat |
one for the mtgame team game#520 sfan5 |
| 05:20 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/520 -- Default: New sandstone brick texture by paramat |
| 05:23 |
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| 05:37 |
VanessaE |
paramat: it lacks ...contrast |
| 05:37 |
VanessaE |
I think the old one was meant to show sort of a mortar between the bricks, but it lacks the "relief" yours shows |
| 05:38 |
VanessaE |
so something kinda in the middle would be better |
| 05:38 |
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| 05:39 |
paramat |
ah i see, apologies. i could make the shadowed pixels a little darker, depending on feedback |
| 05:41 |
VanessaE |
honestly, I'd say more like, take the old one and make the mortar a tad brighter (not much), and make the top- and left-edge highlights as bright as with your submission |
| 05:41 |
paramat |
mine has direct contact between bricks, because sandstone is quite light i kept the shadowed pixels fairly light |
| 05:42 |
VanessaE |
otherwise it kinda has a "chiseled" look rather than looking like separate, mortared-together bricks |
| 05:44 |
paramat |
i'll keep it in mind and see what other feedback there is :) |
| 05:55 |
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| 11:17 |
Zeno` |
http://fpaste.org/224649/32300030/ |
| 11:17 |
Zeno` |
After all these years, while I don't really like this, I still remain the only |
| 11:17 |
Zeno` |
person who 1) everyone in this community can trust, and 2) who is able do |
| 11:17 |
Zeno` |
anything from graphics programming to web hosting. |
| 11:17 |
Zeno` |
WOW |
| 11:18 |
Zeno` |
I didn't realise you were the only trusted person celeron55 :( |
| 11:19 |
celeron55 |
wut |
| 11:20 |
celeron55 |
oh, well it's a draft and that is a comment to it 8) |
| 11:20 |
Zeno` |
just quoting your post (from the logs). I didn't realise there weren't any other trustworthy contributors :P |
| 11:21 |
celeron55 |
did you realize though that there is an AND between the points? |
| 11:21 |
Zeno` |
it was TLDR |
| 11:21 |
Zeno` |
heh :) |
| 11:22 |
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| 11:22 |
Zeno` |
anyway FWIW I have compiled minetestserver without irrlicht |
| 11:22 |
Zeno` |
modifications are still in a state of crap though (otherwise there would be a PR) |
| 11:23 |
Zeno` |
the client is another story... |
| 11:29 |
jin_xi |
well, some discussion about to what extent use which engine cant hurt |
| 11:31 |
RealBadAngel |
hi guys, i just made minimap shader: http://i.imgur.com/8GVib38.jpg |
| 11:31 |
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| 11:31 |
RealBadAngel |
how do you like it? |
| 11:33 |
jin_xi |
nice, i like it but have yet to try |
| 11:33 |
Amaz |
That's really awesome RBA! |
| 11:33 |
celeron55 |
how does that differ from a non-shader minimap? |
| 11:36 |
RealBadAngel |
a sec |
| 11:39 |
RealBadAngel |
http://i.imgur.com/igsmXtj.jpg vs http://i.imgur.com/Ac3peXZ.jpg |
| 11:41 |
celeron55 |
uhm, i don't think any of that difference is justifiable |
| 11:42 |
celeron55 |
or are those shadow things realtime when the map rotates? |
| 11:43 |
RealBadAngel |
yes |
| 11:44 |
RealBadAngel |
shadows depends on yaw |
| 12:12 |
Calinou |
will we get transparent water? |
| 12:12 |
Calinou |
or at least darken it to compensate |
| 12:16 |
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| 14:31 |
nolsen |
"Segmentation fault |
| 14:31 |
nolsen |
" wut |
| 14:31 |
nolsen |
possible bug? |
| 14:33 |
sfan5 |
more info would be nice |
| 14:34 |
nolsen |
sfan5: That's another problem, there is nothing else. |
| 14:34 |
nolsen |
It just says segmentation fault. |
| 14:34 |
sfan5 |
I suggest running it in gdb |
| 14:34 |
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| 15:14 |
nolsen |
sfan5: Umm I think there's a problem with the latest commit. |
| 15:14 |
nolsen |
Because it destroied my world. |
| 15:15 |
nolsen |
I was upgrading to the latest commit because the version I had was exploitable with the nick exploit, so I copied all my worlds, mods, etc over to the new version. |
| 15:15 |
nolsen |
and it destroied it! |
| 15:16 |
nolsen |
My spawn is buried or destroied by the terrain. |
| 15:19 |
nolsen |
https://meldy.hira.io/Zerobin/?3d9d267a41cd29ea#mcI2m2F0DA9UXAyiXsX1PQqftSC+xu1/K2Zs4xZVIVs= |
| 15:19 |
nolsen |
I tried changing out worlds since that world is a gonner, but now it throws an error. |
| 15:26 |
est31 |
forum is really shit |
| 15:26 |
est31 |
you cant even upload images |
| 15:26 |
nolsen |
est31: what forum? |
| 15:26 |
est31 |
forum.minetest.net |
| 15:27 |
Calinou |
built-in images would take too much space |
| 15:27 |
nolsen |
est31: try https://meldy.hira.io/anonboard :P |
| 15:27 |
Calinou |
especially considering people like uploading PNGs |
| 15:27 |
Calinou |
lut.im is fine, but some people think it'll go down someday |
| 15:27 |
est31 |
thats precisely why built in images are bad |
| 15:28 |
Calinou |
most forums don't allow direct uploading of images, too |
| 15:28 |
Calinou |
you should be happy that we allow attachments |
| 15:29 |
est31 |
I dont like it |
| 15:31 |
VanessaE |
storage is cheap - it would be stupid to disallow image uploading. |
| 15:31 |
VanessaE |
est31: upload as an attachment, right-click to get the URL of the image, paste that into your message surrounded by [img][/img] tags. |
| 15:31 |
nolsen |
Or use https://meldy.hira.io/anonboard |
| 15:32 |
nolsen |
They allow images |
| 15:32 |
est31 |
github makes it dead simple: you drag & drop the image to the entry box, and it automatically uploads it |
| 15:32 |
kilbith |
nolsen, how is that related with minetest ? |
| 15:32 |
nolsen |
kilbith: how is this conversation related to minetest. |
| 15:33 |
nolsen |
s/.? |
| 15:33 |
nolsen |
s/./? |
| 15:33 |
est31 |
s/?? |
| 15:33 |
est31 |
:p |
| 15:34 |
kilbith |
est31 wants to host something related with MT, and you're pointing out a forum not related with MT |
| 15:34 |
nolsen |
He could use any other forum for MT. |
| 15:34 |
est31 |
my comment was targeted towards how to improve the forum |
| 15:35 |
est31 |
the more parts a backup consists of, the better |
| 15:37 |
Calinou |
<VanessaE> storage is cheap - it would be stupid to disallow image uploading. |
| 15:37 |
Calinou |
on SSDs, it isn't, at all |
| 15:37 |
Calinou |
est31, phpBB is a mess |
| 15:38 |
VanessaE |
yeah but the forum doesn't run off SSDs does it? besides, even my low-end server (under 40 euros/mo) has SSD + spinning rust |
| 15:38 |
est31 |
yup |
| 15:38 |
VanessaE |
(2 TB of spinning, I think) |
| 15:38 |
Calinou |
sometimes you want SSD-only, eg. for optimal performance or less noise/power usage |
| 15:38 |
Calinou |
my PC is SSD-only |
| 15:38 |
nolsen |
How is SDD/HDD power usage any different? |
| 15:38 |
est31 |
I have a 840 EVO only |
| 15:38 |
Calinou |
SSD saves you a watt or two, which is valuable on a laptop |
| 15:38 |
est31 |
very dangerous |
| 15:39 |
VanessaE |
Calinou: mine is SSD + spinning, but what's that matter when talking about a server? |
| 15:39 |
Calinou |
not much |
| 15:39 |
Krock |
my PC is HDD-only |
| 15:39 |
VanessaE |
Krock: get a current-generation SSD. you will like it. |
| 15:39 |
est31 |
Krock, get a current generation OS |
| 15:39 |
est31 |
you will like it |
| 15:39 |
VanessaE |
anyway point is, storage is cheap |
| 15:40 |
Krock |
Krock: get a current generation PC |
| 15:40 |
VanessaE |
forbidding image uploads makes no sense in the face of all the other kinds of files that can be uploaded -- which in turn usually contain some imagery |
| 15:40 |
est31 |
best you install linux Krock |
| 15:41 |
Krock |
I couldn't play Minetest better on Linux with this machine; it reached its limits :P |
| 15:41 |
VanessaE |
I'd venture a guess that there's twice as many images currently on the forums, in the form of ZIPs of mods, than are directly visible. |
| 15:42 |
VanessaE |
Krock: actually an SSD even helps minetest |
| 15:42 |
VanessaE |
faster game start-up for one thing, and tangibly faster map loading as well |
| 15:42 |
VanessaE |
and a modern OS handles SSDs better than an outdated one does |
| 15:42 |
Krock |
VanessaE, yes, chaching is much faster on non-mechanic storage devices |
| 15:42 |
VanessaE |
things like TRIM support, for example. |
| 15:43 |
Krock |
*caching |
| 15:43 |
VanessaE |
I wasn't thinking about caching, actually |
| 15:45 |
VanessaE |
in any case, this is all offtopic for this channel :P |
| 15:45 |
Krock |
at least, there's activity. |
| 15:45 |
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| 15:50 |
est31 |
why is it OT? |
| 15:50 |
est31 |
its discussion bout the forum |
| 15:50 |
VanessaE |
because we're talking about disk tech and the forum, not cored ev. |
| 15:50 |
VanessaE |
core dev* |
| 15:51 |
est31 |
yes but about the forum as a platform |
| 15:51 |
est31 |
anyway |
| 15:51 |
est31 |
can sb give me the "developer" status on the forum? |
| 15:54 |
VanessaE |
and can somebody else fix the G*d damned database so that editing of some first-posts isn't broken? |
| 15:55 |
est31 |
? |
| 15:55 |
est31 |
works for me |
| 15:55 |
VanessaE |
try editing this one: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7422 |
| 15:55 |
VanessaE |
just hit "edit" and then "preview" without making any changes. |
| 15:55 |
est31 |
I cant, because I dont have the privs :) |
| 15:56 |
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| 15:56 |
est31 |
and even if, I dont have any access to the db |
| 15:56 |
VanessaE |
well for those who can edit at all, it'll respond with: http://pastebin.com/DdvdA8D5 |
| 15:56 |
est31 |
so I can't fix it sry |
| 15:57 |
VanessaE |
that's why I said "somebody else" :) |
| 15:57 |
* est31 |
smells a chown problem |
| 15:57 |
est31 |
or chmod |
| 16:34 |
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| 16:52 |
Mikeonline |
hi |
| 16:57 |
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| 17:35 |
Mikeonline |
is the a server protocol version list out there? |
| 17:35 |
est31 |
? |
| 17:39 |
est31 |
Mikeonline, what do you mean?? |
| 17:39 |
Mikeonline |
i built server from 12-dev and my stable 12 client cant connect |
| 17:39 |
Mikeonline |
the dev version protocol is +1 |
| 17:39 |
Mikeonline |
but why and how can i check this? |
| 17:41 |
est31 |
that should work in theory |
| 17:42 |
Mikeonline |
i get protocol_version strict 25 vs 13..24 |
| 17:42 |
Mikeonline |
you clients version is not supported |
| 17:42 |
Mikeonline |
using latest dev server git from today |
| 17:42 |
Mikeonline |
and client stable 0.4.12 |
| 17:48 |
est31 |
yea you enabled strict version checking |
| 17:48 |
est31 |
disable it and it works |
| 17:57 |
Mikeonline |
yes i know, but disabling could be abused by cheating? |
| 17:58 |
Mikeonline |
can i tell the server to allow all versions newer than .12 stable? |
| 18:12 |
Krock |
nope. |
| 18:13 |
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| 18:26 |
est31 |
Mikeonline, I don't get what you mean |
| 18:33 |
est31 |
you can change SERVER_PROTOCOL_VERSION_MIN |
| 18:33 |
est31 |
e.g. to 23 |
| 18:33 |
est31 |
or 24 even |
| 18:34 |
est31 |
but even 0.4.11 had protocol version 24 |
| 18:34 |
est31 |
to achieve actual checking, you can use a special APi |
| 18:34 |
est31 |
it has been added by developers with great reluctance |
| 18:34 |
est31 |
because it can be abused |
| 18:35 |
est31 |
at least their opinion |
| 18:35 |
est31 |
the call is minetest.get_player_information |
| 18:36 |
est31 |
so if you do a debug build, you get these additional values: |
| 18:36 |
est31 |
major |
| 18:36 |
est31 |
minor and patch |
| 18:36 |
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| 18:38 |
Mikeonline |
i changed min to 24 |
| 18:38 |
Mikeonline |
and disabled strict |
| 18:38 |
est31 |
yea, still 0.4.11 still is allowed |
| 18:39 |
est31 |
if you want to disallow 0.4.11, you have to use that API call and kick the players when they try to join |
| 18:49 |
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| 19:43 |
est31 |
pushing #2708 |
| 19:43 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2708 -- Android: remove broken alignment from Makefile by est31 |
| 19:44 |
est31 |
except if your "I think the current version is ok too" was a formal "-1" hmmmm |
| 19:44 |
hmmmm |
no |
| 19:44 |
hmmmm |
why does nerzhul still comment on PRs.... he's not involved at all |
| 19:45 |
hmmmm |
est31: here's my take on it |
| 19:45 |
hmmmm |
yes, it may be true that it shows up as misaligned when tabs aren't set to 4, BUT on the other hand... |
| 19:45 |
hmmmm |
if you make them all one space, it goes from sort of ugly under certain circumstances to VERY ugly |
| 19:45 |
hmmmm |
under ALL circumstances |
| 19:45 |
hmmmm |
I don't know about you but having a \ after all lines not lined up hampers readability for me |
| 19:46 |
est31 |
its basically like the ; |
| 19:46 |
hmmmm |
i know |
| 19:46 |
hmmmm |
that's what I told myself too for the period of time when I made everything a single space after the line |
| 19:46 |
hmmmm |
but it's just way uglier |
| 19:47 |
hmmmm |
for some reason \ stands out in code more than ; |
| 19:49 |
hmmmm |
I just did it to some of the test.h macros and I think the reason why it's uglier than trailing colons is because 1). it's an explicit space, and 2). it's not a usual syntactic element of code |
| 19:49 |
hmmmm |
so it throws you off |
| 19:50 |
hmmmm |
macros are all one color for most syntax highlighting editors so there's no way to make them not stand out as much |
| 19:50 |
hmmmm |
I think that if you want to write new macros, and you like the one-space \ better, go ahead and do that |
| 19:50 |
hmmmm |
but don't go around changing big hunks of pre existing code that you're not even modifying |
| 19:51 |
est31 |
I have edited parts of that file |
| 19:52 |
est31 |
but there I did align using the old method |
| 19:52 |
hmmmm |
I wouldn't appreciate calling it broken either |
| 19:52 |
est31 |
because having different styles is even uglier |
| 19:52 |
hmmmm |
it's a pure style matter |
| 19:52 |
est31 |
alignment that doesn't align is broken |
| 19:52 |
hmmmm |
the alignment doesn't align for some people with some specific tab settings |
| 19:52 |
est31 |
its like a car that doesnt drive, or a computer that doesnt calculate the right result |
| 19:53 |
est31 |
that file shouldn't use tabs then for indentation |
| 19:53 |
hmmmm |
god dammit |
| 19:53 |
hmmmm |
this comes down to a tabs vs spaces argument |
| 19:53 |
hmmmm |
i knew it |
| 19:53 |
est31 |
no |
| 19:53 |
est31 |
I don't say that spaces are better |
| 19:54 |
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| 19:54 |
est31 |
tabs give people choice |
| 19:54 |
hmmmm |
but they present this problem at the same time |
| 19:54 |
est31 |
but if you destroy alignment when you do chose, you take that choice away |
| 19:54 |
hmmmm |
but changing this file to spaces is totally inconsistent |
| 19:54 |
est31 |
yes |
| 19:55 |
hmmmm |
when you edit a minetest file, you don't expect to have to change editor indentation settings |
| 19:55 |
hmmmm |
there are some files already like this in fact |
| 19:55 |
est31 |
which ones? |
| 19:55 |
hmmmm |
in the scriptapi common headers |
| 19:55 |
hmmmm |
and you know what |
| 19:55 |
hmmmm |
it's just a pain in the ass because they're indented using spaces |
| 19:55 |
hmmmm |
and to stay consistent I need to do tricks with my editor |
| 19:56 |
hmmmm |
and if I forget to do that it'll auto convert to tabs |
| 19:56 |
est31 |
that is c code? |
| 19:56 |
hmmmm |
so, we've already tried it where the entire file is space-indented |
| 19:56 |
hmmmm |
and it sucks |
| 19:56 |
hmmmm |
yeah, it's c code |
| 19:56 |
hmmmm |
i realize there is a difference between source files and build files |
| 19:57 |
est31 |
which file again? |
| 19:57 |
hmmmm |
c_converter.h? a |
| 19:57 |
hmmmm |
and others |
| 19:58 |
est31 |
c_converter.h does alignment though |
| 19:58 |
hmmmm |
with spaces |
| 19:58 |
est31 |
yes |
| 19:58 |
hmmmm |
it looks pretty and all but it's simply a pain in the ass to maintain |
| 19:58 |
hmmmm |
i've dealt with it though |
| 19:59 |
hmmmm |
i didn't bother changing it because i have way better things to do |
| 19:59 |
est31 |
yea I know how it feels |
| 19:59 |
est31 |
libgmp had it too |
| 19:59 |
est31 |
till I came :) |
| 19:59 |
hmmmm |
libgmp is different though |
| 19:59 |
hmmmm |
libgmp is a third party library, we don't touch third party things mostly |
| 19:59 |
est31 |
now its not aligned |
| 19:59 |
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| 20:00 |
est31 |
yes, only about how easy it is to maintain or modify |
| 20:00 |
hmmmm |
we don't need to maintain or modify third party code though |
| 20:00 |
hmmmm |
i'd say just leave it alone |
| 20:00 |
hmmmm |
you need to have a really good reason if you want to modify third party code. |
| 20:00 |
hmmmm |
if it generates a warning or something, try disabling the warning for that library |
| 20:00 |
est31 |
I'm the third party |
| 20:00 |
hmmmm |
libgmp?? |
| 20:00 |
est31 |
err |
| 20:01 |
est31 |
sorry |
| 20:01 |
est31 |
csrp |
| 20:01 |
est31 |
dammit |
| 20:01 |
hmmmm |
csrp is different though because you've tried to integrate it with minetest |
| 20:01 |
hmmmm |
since it's actually your own library i'd suggest making it separate |
| 20:01 |
est31 |
I've changed the code style because I liked it more |
| 20:01 |
est31 |
and because I could |
| 20:01 |
hmmmm |
and that's fine |
| 20:01 |
hmmmm |
you can change the code style for csrp to whatever you want |
| 20:02 |
est31 |
yes |
| 20:02 |
hmmmm |
it doesn't need to conform to minetest's code style |
| 20:02 |
hmmmm |
but it needs to be treated as a third party library |
| 20:02 |
est31 |
yes |
| 20:02 |
hmmmm |
i.e. not in util |
| 20:02 |
hmmmm |
in fact all that should be in a third_party/ or contrib/ or whatever directory |
| 20:02 |
est31 |
like the bundled lua too? |
| 20:02 |
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| 20:02 |
hmmmm |
yes |
| 20:03 |
hmmmm |
anything bundled |
| 20:03 |
hmmmm |
keep it organized |
| 20:03 |
est31 |
or just bundled/ |
| 20:03 |
hmmmm |
w/e |
| 20:03 |
hmmmm |
anyway this has nothing to do with what we were originally talking about |
| 20:03 |
est31 |
... yes |
| 20:03 |
hmmmm |
so this is my opinion that you shouldn't change it vs. your opinion that we should because you say it's broken |
| 20:04 |
hmmmm |
nobody's opinion overrides eachother |
| 20:04 |
hmmmm |
so we should have a vote for this kind of matter |
| 20:04 |
est31 |
sounds good |
| 20:04 |
hmmmm |
how long do you want to leave it running for |
| 20:05 |
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| 20:05 |
est31 |
1 week? |
| 20:05 |
est31 |
I'd suggest to make it inside the forums |
| 20:05 |
hmmmm |
alright then |
| 20:05 |
hmmmm |
was going to use strawpoll again |
| 20:05 |
Hijiri |
are we using libgmp to get integers in lua |
| 20:06 |
est31 |
no |
| 20:06 |
est31 |
libgmp is only for srp |
| 20:06 |
Hijiri |
oh |
| 20:06 |
Hijiri |
what is srp |
| 20:06 |
Calinou |
how about lib/ for bundled libs? |
| 20:06 |
est31 |
the new way you log in to minetest servers |
| 20:06 |
Hijiri |
put keys as integers? |
| 20:06 |
est31 |
yes |
| 20:07 |
est31 |
thats what encryption does |
| 20:07 |
hmmmm |
yeah, lib/ sounds best imho |
| 20:07 |
hmmmm |
it's the most standard sounding |
| 20:07 |
Calinou |
even Web projects use lib/ :P |
| 20:07 |
est31 |
yea |
| 20:08 |
est31 |
csrp won't be abled to use the shipped hash algorithm though |
| 20:09 |
est31 |
btw what about sha1.coo |
| 20:09 |
est31 |
cpp* |
| 20:09 |
hmmmm |
should be sent to lib/ too imho |
| 20:20 |
hmmmm |
est31: fwiw, https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/CodingStyle |
| 20:21 |
hmmmm |
linux code style says to line them up |
| 20:21 |
est31 |
hmmmm, what to crtl+f for? |
| 20:22 |
hmmmm |
Chapter 12: Macros, Enums, and RTL |
| 20:23 |
est31 |
yea they line up using tab stops |
| 20:23 |
hmmmm |
ohh that's not good |
| 20:24 |
est31 |
so the kernel style neither supports me nor you :) |
| 20:24 |
hmmmm |
yeah we can digress a bit here |
| 20:24 |
hmmmm |
the kernel style dictates a tab space of 8 |
| 20:24 |
hmmmm |
that's ridiculous and goes against the whole point of tabs |
| 20:25 |
est31 |
it dictates a tab stop spacing of 8 spaces |
| 20:26 |
est31 |
The only really config independent way to use tab stops is the elastic tabstops approach |
| 20:28 |
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| 20:46 |
hmmmm |
est31: what is the summary of your argument for changing to a single-space line continuatator? |
| 20:47 |
est31 |
right now, they dictate tab configuration in order to be aligned. tab configuration should be free |
| 20:48 |
hmmmm |
erm, in other words, should i change any of the wording here: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12247 |
| 20:50 |
est31 |
the vote closes in 7 days |
| 20:50 |
est31 |
you should point that out |
| 20:50 |
hmmmm |
doesn't it say that? "Poll runs till Sat May 30, 2015 4:45 pm" |
| 20:51 |
est31 |
ah |
| 20:51 |
est31 |
even coded to my time zone, nice |
| 20:52 |
hmmmm |
depending on the outcome, it'd probably be a good idea to change the macros everywhere |
| 20:52 |
hmmmm |
right now it's a mix between the two styles |
| 20:53 |
est31 |
yes |
| 21:07 |
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| 23:22 |
hmmmm |
hey paramat what's up |
| 23:23 |
paramat |
hi |
| 23:23 |
hmmmm |
I think I came up with a space-efficient way to map a discrete, uncompressable y-position to a range compressable terrain variance value |
| 23:23 |
hmmmm |
I've been going about it all wrong |
| 23:24 |
hmmmm |
instead of mapping the Y-range to a range of possible terrain variance values, the opposite should happen |
| 23:24 |
paramat |
good grief that's quite a description |
| 23:24 |
hmmmm |
compress the terrain variance into 64 or 128 slots, and then have each slot map to a list of biomes containing that |
| 23:25 |
hmmmm |
errm |
| 23:25 |
paramat |
this detects the roughness of terrain? |
| 23:25 |
hmmmm |
each variance slot map to a list of biomes, which are then range-compared |
| 23:25 |
hmmmm |
well, that's what terrain variance does |
| 23:25 |
hmmmm |
what this does is maps terrain roughness together with y-value |
| 23:25 |
hmmmm |
errm, y-position i mean |
| 23:26 |
hmmmm |
so this, combined with mapgen hints, I believe is the winner |
| 23:26 |
paramat |
i remember you had trouble with variance before, for terrain biome use |
| 23:26 |
hmmmm |
http://fpaste.org/225051/14324236/ |
| 23:27 |
paramat |
this is good to read =) |
| 23:27 |
hmmmm |
so yeah |
| 23:27 |
hmmmm |
it's going to have 3 variables in total |
| 23:27 |
hmmmm |
the mapgen hint overrides all else |
| 23:27 |
hmmmm |
terrain biomes can be either elevation-only, or elevation and terrain variance based |
| 23:27 |
hmmmm |
elevation-only are for example ocean |
| 23:27 |
hmmmm |
who cares about how rough the ocean bed is, it's still ocean |
| 23:27 |
hmmmm |
and then cross a certain point of depth, ocean will become deep ocean or whatever |
| 23:28 |
hmmmm |
so then for another example, we have a cliff |
| 23:28 |
hmmmm |
there's an extremely high variance value at that point, paired with a high y coordinate |
| 23:28 |
hmmmm |
and then the other side of the cliff is either a rocky shore or just something else depending on y value |
| 23:29 |
hmmmm |
obviously I didn't get all the biomes possible |
| 23:29 |
paramat |
nice you could have plateau biomes |
| 23:32 |
paramat |
i look forward to possibly seeing a working example mapgen |
| 23:40 |
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