| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:22 |
paramat |
i wrongly thought that existing worlds would be affected, not so it seems |
| 00:40 |
hmmmm |
it doesn't break existing worlds because existing worlds read mgflags |
| 00:41 |
hmmmm |
when I said that enabling them by default would break existing worlds, you modified the default internal mgflags value that is modified by map_meta.txt. that would break existing worlds. |
| 00:43 |
paramat |
yep |
| 00:58 |
paramat |
found it, that was when i moved dungeons and jungles flags from game to engine. if snowbiomes are made default it would be done using mgv6_spflags in .conf |
| 01:06 |
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| 01:29 |
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| 01:54 |
hmmmm |
hey paramat, are you around? |
| 01:54 |
hmmmm |
how finished is your improved generateBiomes? |
| 01:54 |
hmmmm |
I want to generalize it somehow in order to improve testability |
| 01:55 |
hmmmm |
how do you improve testability on something that works on a voxelmanipulator |
| 01:56 |
hmmmm |
I'm thinking maybe it should be a 1xNx1 VoxelManipulator, so that em.X == 1 |
| 01:56 |
hmmmm |
so we'll unit test biome generation, arguably one of the most fragile parts of the entire system |
| 02:22 |
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| 02:22 |
paramat |
hi |
| 02:22 |
paramat |
i have to go eat in a few minutes. my work so far is here https://github.com/paramat/minetest/tree/genbiome |
| 02:23 |
paramat |
needs more testing but seems to work, then i have to do the same for mgv5 |
| 02:23 |
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| 02:23 |
paramat |
so half finished |
| 02:24 |
paramat |
also i need to make sure biomes get generated down to y = -192 to cope with mgv5 deep oceans |
| 02:25 |
paramat |
after i eat i could finish the job, a few more hours perhaps |
| 02:25 |
hmmmm |
it'd be good to write a unit test for that :-) |
| 02:27 |
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| 02:27 |
hmmmm |
anyway here's my idea for next-gen biomes: you remember how I wanted biomes to be the combination of terrain biomes and climate biomes, right? well terrain biomes, instead of being decided by some mathy algorithms, why doesn't the mapgen place hints |
| 02:27 |
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| 02:28 |
hmmmm |
so if the form of land is supposed to be an ocean, as determined by the biome, it can just set that to ocean |
| 02:28 |
paramat |
i remember |
| 02:28 |
hmmmm |
this 16x16 biome hint mapping would be per-MapSector |
| 02:28 |
hmmmm |
and it'd have to be stored directly in the map |
| 02:28 |
hmmmm |
but the benefits would be fantastic |
| 02:28 |
paramat |
map sector is a vertical stack of mapblocks? |
| 02:29 |
hmmmm |
yes |
| 02:29 |
paramat |
nice idea |
| 02:29 |
hmmmm |
it's the parent container for MapBlocks in Map |
| 02:29 |
hmmmm |
but there's the ridge problem here |
| 02:30 |
hmmmm |
cocindentally i found out that this is actually how minecraft currently does biomes. they're saved as an attribute in the map file |
| 02:30 |
hmmmm |
but it got me wondering, does minecraft have any overlapping terrain? how does it account for this? |
| 02:30 |
hmmmm |
if we have a mountain overlooking a river, is that vertical node column of intersection a river, or a mountain? |
| 02:31 |
paramat |
ah.. |
| 02:31 |
paramat |
from watching MC videos it has overhangs of course but terrain type seems to be consistent vertically |
| 02:32 |
paramat |
i think.. |
| 02:33 |
hmmmm |
yeah, the only knowledge i have of MC is from watching videos of it |
| 02:34 |
est31 |
great I'm not the only one who doesnt know mc |
| 02:35 |
paramat |
i tend get the impression of near-equal size biomes, each with a terrain type, im not keen on the result. seems there is no overall xlarge structure or 'big idea' |
| 02:35 |
paramat |
not saying your idea is bad |
| 02:35 |
hmmmm |
that's different |
| 02:36 |
paramat |
yeah good |
| 02:36 |
hmmmm |
the biome shape in minecraft is due to the uniformity of the prng |
| 02:36 |
hmmmm |
what i'm talking about is a way to "know" what kind of terrain it is at that spot |
| 02:37 |
paramat |
yes so before you were knowing through height and variance? |
| 02:37 |
hmmmm |
"knowing" is used loosely there |
| 02:37 |
hmmmm |
it was a wildly inaccurate guess at best |
| 02:38 |
hmmmm |
my variance algorithm works much better as an edge detector than it does detecting if terrain is mountaneous or not |
| 02:40 |
paramat |
the 'hints' would be derived from the large scale terrain generation, from the terrain noises? |
| 02:40 |
hmmmm |
they'd be explicitly set by the mapgen |
| 02:40 |
hmmmm |
so i would have this "terrain hint map" as a standard part of the mapgen interface |
| 02:41 |
paramat |
that would enable players to edit and choose what terrain goes where? |
| 02:41 |
hmmmm |
if they edit the map file, I guess |
| 02:42 |
hmmmm |
they'd get to edit and choose which terrain type that vertical column is considered, to be more accurate |
| 02:42 |
hmmmm |
but it's just as editable as mapblocks are inside of the block database now |
| 02:43 |
paramat |
ok but normally the hint map is created by noises? |
| 02:43 |
hmmmm |
i guess so. |
| 02:43 |
hmmmm |
for example the river placement |
| 02:43 |
hmmmm |
so you'd have the previously existing hintmap for that column passed along to you in makeBlock() |
| 02:44 |
hmmmm |
you pass it along to generateTerrain(), that gets set to normal terrain, plains, etc. based on attributes such as varied persistence maps |
| 02:44 |
hmmmm |
then you pass it along to generateMountains(), which would set whatever column to the 'mountain' terrain type wherever it decides to set a mountaineous node |
| 02:45 |
hmmmm |
passed along to generateRiver, it'd set whichever nodes were carved out for a river |
| 02:46 |
paramat |
interesting.. i go eat now, will work on my branch later |
| 02:46 |
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| 02:55 |
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| 03:22 |
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| 03:29 |
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| 03:35 |
hmmmm |
hmm |
| 03:35 |
hmmmm |
i like the *shapes* of biomes in minecraft better in general, but i agree with paramat they sizes are too consistent to be interesting |
| 03:36 |
hmmmm |
they use a regular uniform PRNG to plot points on the map, zooming out in a fractal manner |
| 03:37 |
hmmmm |
so the likely cause of the consistent sizes and shapes is the fact that the PRNG is uniform. meaning it could be 'solved' by breaking it somehow |
| 03:37 |
hmmmm |
one thing that comes to mind is weighting certain random output values much higher in the RNG, but how to decide which to bias, and by how much? hrmm |
| 03:37 |
hmmmm |
randomize the bias for the randomizer |
| 03:38 |
hmmmm |
the specifics of the RNG bias should probably be sourced from the map seed |
| 03:39 |
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| 04:59 |
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| 05:00 |
paramat |
hmmmm tested and ready for review #2713 |
| 05:00 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2713 -- Mgv5/v7: Fix generateBiomes biome recalculation logic, improve code by paramat |
| 05:00 |
paramat |
waiting for checks |
| 05:00 |
|
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| 05:04 |
paramat |
the functions are identical for v5 and v7, ready for combining into biomemanager. now desert stone and sandstone reach down to -192, which is nice :) |
| 05:05 |
paramat |
all those unnecessary recalculations of biome are gone, so mapgen is faster |
| 05:05 |
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| 05:08 |
hmmmm |
now, why -192? |
| 05:08 |
paramat |
to cope with the very deep oceans of mgv5 |
| 05:09 |
hmmmm |
the problem is that you're coding for the parameters of that mapgen |
| 05:09 |
paramat |
i calculated the deepest possible ocean |
| 05:09 |
hmmmm |
with that specific set of default parameters |
| 05:09 |
paramat |
yes, and mgv7 doesnt need to go so deep |
| 05:09 |
hmmmm |
this has to be somewhat universal |
| 05:10 |
hmmmm |
1024, -192, all of them are arbitrary constants and prone to breaking if the parameters get changed |
| 05:10 |
paramat |
yes i decided -192 was deep enough for most mapgens |
| 05:10 |
paramat |
1024 is my 'big number' gauranteed bigger than 'base filler' |
| 05:10 |
hmmmm |
how are we guaranteed that |
| 05:11 |
paramat |
hehe |
| 05:11 |
paramat |
i was going to use (u32)-1 but nplaced needs to be a s16 to compare with depth_top etc |
| 05:12 |
hmmmm |
depth_top and so on should be unsigned too |
| 05:12 |
paramat |
any filler dept larger than one chunk will fail anyway |
| 05:12 |
hmmmm |
positions of things are s16 |
| 05:12 |
hmmmm |
number of items or sizes are unsigned numbers |
| 05:12 |
hmmmm |
one chunk is variable too |
| 05:12 |
paramat |
ah okay i could try u16 then.. will do, then big number (u16)-1 |
| 05:13 |
hmmmm |
it could be as large as the entire map |
| 05:13 |
paramat |
lol |
| 05:13 |
hmmmm |
i'm serious |
| 05:13 |
hmmmm |
set chunksize to 4096 and see what happens |
| 05:13 |
paramat |
i'm amused |
| 05:14 |
paramat |
you're also correct, updating PR |
| 05:14 |
hmmmm |
well instead of fixing one small detail, maybe we should be working on the getting signed-ness correct everywhere |
| 05:14 |
hmmmm |
also, comments |
| 05:15 |
hmmmm |
the reason why this code is so hard to get right is because it contains logic that's literally more difficult to follow than anywhere else in the code for minetest |
| 05:16 |
paramat |
more comments okay |
| 05:16 |
hmmmm |
like the way I wrote comments in my version |
| 05:16 |
paramat |
yes |
| 05:17 |
hmmmm |
so anyway |
| 05:17 |
paramat |
i rushed this a bit, it's late (early) here (time for MC videos/anime) so i need another day or so |
| 05:18 |
hmmmm |
instead of checking for stone, water, and air, maybe we should think about checking the nodes' solidness |
| 05:18 |
hmmmm |
ndef->get(n).solidness ? i think |
| 05:18 |
hmmmm |
maybe that's a bit too much, not sure |
| 05:22 |
paramat |
ah.. i tried u16 for deth_water_top but it generates warnings for comparison of signed and unsigned ints |
| 05:23 |
paramat |
(depth water) |
| 05:23 |
hmmmm |
that's because there's a distinction here |
| 05:24 |
paramat |
it's compared with y |
| 05:24 |
paramat |
depth top and base filler can be u16 |
| 05:24 |
paramat |
so nplaced can be too |
| 05:24 |
hmmmm |
water_level is signed, depth_water_top is unsigned |
| 05:25 |
hmmmm |
in this case, since water_level is an int, depth_water_top should be promoted to a signed int as well |
| 05:25 |
hmmmm |
see, this is undefined behavior. |
| 05:25 |
hmmmm |
int could be 16 bit or 32 bit, or even larger depending on platform |
| 05:25 |
hmmmm |
if it's 16 bit, then it becomes equivalent to s16 |
| 05:26 |
hmmmm |
and then the s16 would be promoted to a u16 |
| 05:26 |
hmmmm |
thus changing the behavior entirely |
| 05:26 |
hmmmm |
i used int a lot in my older code, and that's not a good thing |
| 05:27 |
paramat |
water level should be s16 i think |
| 05:28 |
hmmmm |
well, it's guaranteed to have the capacity of s16 as it is |
| 05:28 |
hmmmm |
the only change here is the semantics on what the signedness is of the resulting expression "water_level - depth_water_top" |
| 05:29 |
hmmmm |
maybe it would be a good idea to use a cast here |
| 05:31 |
paramat |
better to make water level an s16? a change in one place |
| 05:31 |
hmmmm |
better to change the expression to |
| 05:31 |
hmmmm |
y > (s16)(water_level - depth_water_top) |
| 05:33 |
paramat |
okay |
| 05:34 |
hmmmm |
no wait |
| 05:34 |
hmmmm |
change it to s32 |
| 05:35 |
hmmmm |
the risk of integer underflow in that circumstance is actually quite probable |
| 05:35 |
paramat |
okay |
| 05:39 |
paramat |
so i'm trying u16 for depth_top, base_filler, depth_water_top and nplaced. big number becomes (u16)-1 |
| 05:39 |
hmmmm |
that's actually USHORT_MAX, but we can't use that macro thanks to visual studio 2008 and lower |
| 05:40 |
paramat |
depending on nose_filler_depth, base_filler could become negative ..? |
| 05:40 |
paramat |
heh |
| 05:40 |
paramat |
(noise filler depth) |
| 05:40 |
hmmmm |
base_filler is signed righT? |
| 05:41 |
hmmmm |
so it shouldn't matter |
| 05:41 |
paramat |
oh i thought you said it should be u16 |
| 05:42 |
paramat |
'sizes are unsigned' |
| 05:42 |
hmmmm |
ah, base_filler is unsigned |
| 05:43 |
paramat |
well in my update it will be |
| 05:43 |
hmmmm |
in that case, you should take MYMAX(noise_filler_depth->result[index], 0) |
| 05:43 |
paramat |
okay |
| 05:45 |
paramat |
oh actually no noise_filler_depth is meant to go negative, it averages to depth_filler |
| 05:45 |
paramat |
i'll just make sure base_filler doesnt go negative |
| 05:46 |
hmmmm |
ahh right |
| 05:46 |
hmmmm |
yeah good catch there |
| 05:46 |
hmmmm |
noise_filler_depth is how much the base filler is modulated by |
| 05:47 |
hmmmm |
it's noise with a very subtle impact, i like it though |
| 05:48 |
paramat |
yes mostly +-1, rarely +-2 |
| 05:48 |
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| 05:50 |
paramat |
BTW offtopic, is it okay to use fminf for floats? |
| 05:50 |
hmmmm |
why?? |
| 05:50 |
hmmmm |
i'd say it's better to just stick with the macro |
| 05:51 |
paramat |
i'm using that in a new core mapgen |
| 05:51 |
paramat |
so MYMIN MYMAX does all number types okay |
| 05:51 |
hmmmm |
not only is MYMIN() faster, it's consistent with all the rest of the code |
| 05:52 |
paramat |
ah excellent, i was wondering if it was for ints only |
| 05:57 |
paramat |
biome gen down to -192 is perfect because the highest lava caves start at -256, and lava is stone lava. but do you want me to move this -192 constant to a #define in the header file? |
| 06:00 |
hmmmm |
sure |
| 06:01 |
paramat |
okay. i'll finish this tomorrow, thanks for the advice.. |
| 06:03 |
hmmmm |
no problem |
| 06:03 |
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| 06:59 |
OldCoder |
hmmmm, engine question if it is all right. Is there any particular reason a setpos call to a specific location would work sometimes and fail other times? |
| 06:59 |
* OldCoder |
assumes that setpos is a low-level API call |
| 06:59 |
hmmmm |
don't know |
| 06:59 |
OldCoder |
All right |
| 07:00 |
hmmmm |
you can file an issue on the github issue tracker |
| 07:04 |
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| 07:26 |
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| 07:36 |
OldCoder |
hmmmm, answer: One must do a minetest.after before setpos if this is register on join |
| 07:36 |
OldCoder |
So, not a core issue |
| 07:36 |
OldCoder |
Well, there ought to be a more elegant solution |
| 07:36 |
OldCoder |
I.e. mods that do setpos too soon after join will fail |
| 07:45 |
hmmmm |
perhaps the player does not exist on the map at that point in execution |
| 07:46 |
OldCoder |
Could be |
| 07:46 |
OldCoder |
I note similar code already in some mods |
| 07:47 |
OldCoder |
I would have thought he did exist though for register on join |
| 07:47 |
OldCoder |
At any rate I now have the first ever stable version of Hungry Games |
| 07:49 |
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| 07:49 |
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| 07:50 |
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| 08:00 |
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| 08:05 |
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| 08:10 |
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| 08:27 |
rubenwardy |
xyz is no longer willing to host mmdb - it takes too long to fix problems and migrate it - does anyone else have servers that they are willing to host it on? I reckon it could use simplification as well, it's overly complicated ATM. |
| 08:28 |
Calinou |
me? I don't guarantee 100% uptime though |
| 08:28 |
Calinou |
I have a VPS, 4 vcore, 4 GB RAM, 200 GB storage, 100 Mb/s effective bandwidth. Runs Debian 8 64-bit |
| 08:30 |
rubenwardy |
Awesome. It'll need rewriting / modification to remove dependencies on the forum. |
| 08:30 |
Calinou |
I'm not a PHP guru :) |
| 08:30 |
Calinou |
personally I'd start the MMDB over |
| 08:30 |
Calinou |
ie. remove all existing stuff as it's out of date |
| 08:30 |
rubenwardy |
MMDB is in Python |
| 08:30 |
rubenwardy |
DFjango |
| 08:31 |
rubenwardy |
Lol, that typos about right - Da-fuck-jango |
| 08:32 |
Calinou |
not a Python guru either, just a beginner :p |
| 08:32 |
rubenwardy |
Yeah :) |
| 08:32 |
Calinou |
anyway I could host it |
| 08:33 |
Calinou |
but my host has occasional lag/downtime issues, which make uptime about 99,5% or so |
| 08:33 |
Calinou |
which is not that great |
| 08:33 |
celeron55 |
hosting isn't a problem; the problem is detaching it from the forum's user accounts |
| 08:33 |
rubenwardy |
It would be harder to authenticate users - ie: I could sign up for an account for Calinou before he made one. But that's no so bad |
| 08:34 |
celeron55 |
i can host anything that works on openbsd but can't promise super speedy updates or complex migrations |
| 08:35 |
rubenwardy |
It already has a login form that works without phpbb, just not a register form |
| 08:35 |
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| 08:35 |
celeron55 |
....aaand actually i'm running slightly out of disk space so i'd need to sort that out first |
| 08:36 |
celeron55 |
(mmdb contains around 600MB of data currently) |
| 08:37 |
rubenwardy |
There is a lot more potential with it, which it is missing out |
| 08:37 |
celeron55 |
by the way, our first problem is that mmdb isn't located at its own subdomain but under the forum subdomain |
| 08:38 |
rubenwardy |
In terms of redirects? |
| 08:38 |
celeron55 |
i wonder if minetest's mod store stuff will follow redirects properly |
| 08:38 |
rubenwardy |
We might just have to break support if there's no other way |
| 08:38 |
OldCoder |
Hi |
| 08:39 |
OldCoder |
Actually, the three resources are a subject I'd been hoping to bring up this summer |
| 08:39 |
OldCoder |
Backup copies of the forum, the mod database, and the wiki |
| 08:39 |
OldCoder |
Is the discussion above related to the mod database? |
| 08:39 |
rubenwardy |
yes |
| 08:40 |
OldCoder |
This project could someday be comparable not to Mozilla but to one of the other serious ventures |
| 08:40 |
OldCoder |
I feel it cannot continue in the current manner as far as these resources go |
| 08:40 |
OldCoder |
No single person or even two people can possess the only copies |
| 08:40 |
OldCoder |
But this part |
| 08:40 |
OldCoder |
of the discussion can wait; putting it out there |
| 08:40 |
est31 |
what does this have to do with mozilla |
| 08:40 |
OldCoder |
Let me read up briefly |
| 08:40 |
Megaf_ |
09:27 <rubenwardy> xyz is no longer willing to host mmdb - it takes too long to fix problems and migrate it - does anyone else have servers that they are willing to host it on? I reckon it could use simplification as well, it's overly complicated ATM. |
| 08:41 |
Megaf_ |
What's mmdb? |
| 08:41 |
rubenwardy |
minetest mod database |
| 08:41 |
OldCoder |
est31 I am literal. I am saying that this is a genuine serious long term project |
| 08:41 |
rubenwardy |
I think that it should be possible to download the database of mmdb (minus password hashes) |
| 08:41 |
OldCoder |
Not at the Mozilla level but potentially in the hundreds of thousands of users category |
| 08:41 |
rubenwardy |
from the mmdb web interface |
| 08:41 |
OldCoder |
No |
| 08:41 |
OldCoder |
His server will most likely |
| 08:41 |
OldCoder |
Not support it; much easier to ZIP |
| 08:42 |
OldCoder |
Will he cooperate? |
| 08:42 |
rubenwardy |
Who? |
| 08:42 |
OldCoder |
This is xyz |
| 08:42 |
OldCoder |
correct? |
| 08:42 |
rubenwardy |
xyz won't be hosting mmdb anymore |
| 08:42 |
OldCoder |
I feel that whoever does, multiple copies *must* be out there |
| 08:43 |
OldCoder |
And I will raise this point with the wiki and the forums soon |
| 08:43 |
rubenwardy |
I meant a link to the zip from the html of the mmdb web form, generated regularly |
| 08:43 |
OldCoder |
Regarding hosting, I have pretty much unlimited disk and bandwidth |
| 08:43 |
OldCoder |
Hm |
| 08:43 |
OldCoder |
There is an exported ZIP |
| 08:43 |
OldCoder |
that can be used to recreate the database? |
| 08:43 |
rubenwardy |
I wish minetest.net was minetest.org, much more professional |
| 08:44 |
rubenwardy |
:P |
| 08:44 |
OldCoder |
I don't think either name is bad |
| 08:44 |
OldCoder |
And it's not the subject ATM |
| 08:44 |
OldCoder |
So, people are agreeing to move the mmdb? |
| 08:44 |
rubenwardy |
I know. What are the contents of the zip? csv? |
| 08:44 |
rubenwardy |
It's either move it, or discard it |
| 08:44 |
OldCoder |
Well, is it downloadable now? |
| 08:44 |
OldCoder |
Right now? |
| 08:45 |
rubenwardy |
c55 has copies |
| 08:45 |
OldCoder |
Remove passwords or whatever and let me take a look |
| 08:45 |
OldCoder |
Are the passwords the same as at the forums or different? |
| 08:45 |
rubenwardy |
yes |
| 08:45 |
OldCoder |
I already have those passwords |
| 08:45 |
rubenwardy |
they share salts and hashes |
| 08:46 |
OldCoder |
As I already have the passwords, I can be offered the ZIP now without preparation |
| 08:48 |
OldCoder |
Note: It is my position that the ZIPs for all three resources must be available at all times. Passwords can be stripped by scripts on the fly. |
| 08:49 |
rubenwardy |
It is not good for one person to have the only copy, they could go AWOL |
| 08:49 |
OldCoder |
Exactly |
| 08:49 |
OldCoder |
Or two people |
| 08:49 |
OldCoder |
No matter who the 2nd person is |
| 08:49 |
OldCoder |
I have spent a few years now of Time that I have less of than you on this project |
| 08:49 |
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| 08:50 |
OldCoder |
Many people are doing the same |
| 08:50 |
rubenwardy |
One problem that annoys me about MMDB is that only iqualfragile and thexyz had copies of the errorlog, there was nothing I could do (although iqualfragile did try to fix it, it was just an annoying fix) |
| 08:50 |
OldCoder |
Yes |
| 08:50 |
OldCoder |
It is not reasonable for a group project to be at risk in this manner |
| 08:50 |
rubenwardy |
this project = minetest, or mmdb? |
| 08:50 |
OldCoder |
Minetest |
| 08:50 |
OldCoder |
Three resources are key: the forums, the mmdb, and the wiki (I assume) |
| 08:50 |
* OldCoder |
has not looked at the wiki recently |
| 08:51 |
OldCoder |
These resources need to be as FOSS as everything else |
| 08:51 |
rubenwardy |
and dev wiki |
| 08:51 |
OldCoder |
Two wikis? All right |
| 08:51 |
OldCoder |
Agreed |
| 08:51 |
rubenwardy |
but that's included i guess |
| 08:51 |
OldCoder |
Could be |
| 08:51 |
OldCoder |
I have the forums as they were six months ago |
| 08:51 |
rubenwardy |
Why? |
| 08:52 |
OldCoder |
Hm? Why? To prepare tests of the feasibility of porting them |
| 08:52 |
OldCoder |
The tests were successful |
| 08:52 |
rubenwardy |
Ah. |
| 08:52 |
OldCoder |
The point is, if open copies are not available by Fall |
| 08:52 |
OldCoder |
I feel it will be time to fork the forums |
| 08:52 |
OldCoder |
As one year will be too late |
| 08:52 |
OldCoder |
But it is growing rather late in my time zone |
| 08:52 |
OldCoder |
|
| 08:53 |
OldCoder |
If there are no conclusions for tonight... |
| 08:53 |
rubenwardy |
ok |
| 08:53 |
OldCoder |
I may be able to host the mmdb |
| 08:53 |
rubenwardy |
It's 0953 for me |
| 08:53 |
OldCoder |
I do not know that I could host the forums... |
| 08:53 |
OldCoder |
Yes |
| 08:53 |
OldCoder |
But all three resources need to be public or they need to be forked |
| 08:53 |
OldCoder |
|
| 08:53 |
* OldCoder |
has a fast network BTW. Not the current one; it is a loaner. |
| 08:54 |
rubenwardy |
time zones are weird :P The contents are publicly accessable anyway, so not a security risk. What's your opinion on this, celeron55? |
| 08:54 |
OldCoder |
Passwords |
| 08:54 |
rubenwardy |
Passwords won't be included, ofc |
| 08:54 |
OldCoder |
He is probably concerned about that. I feel that making all three resources public can be accomplished... |
| 08:54 |
OldCoder |
without including passwords |
| 08:55 |
OldCoder |
I propose that multiple senior people possess everything *including* passwords. To be clear, this does not need to be me. |
| 08:55 |
OldCoder |
|
| 08:55 |
OldCoder |
or include me, rather |
| 08:55 |
rubenwardy |
how big is the forum db? |
| 08:55 |
OldCoder |
Not large at all |
| 08:55 |
OldCoder |
Very surprising |
| 08:55 |
OldCoder |
But most files are not included |
| 08:55 |
OldCoder |
I think my copy is only about 100MB zippeed |
| 08:55 |
OldCoder |
I think my copy is only about 100MB zipped * |
| 08:55 |
rubenwardy |
wat. wow |
| 08:56 |
OldCoder |
Most files are external links |
| 08:56 |
OldCoder |
Which raises another issue |
| 08:56 |
OldCoder |
I personally want a copy of the forums |
| 08:56 |
OldCoder |
So that I can begin mirroring |
| 08:56 |
OldCoder |
ALL of the files |
| 08:56 |
OldCoder |
As they have a tendency to disappear |
| 08:56 |
OldCoder |
|
| 08:56 |
OldCoder |
Tonight I created a Hungry Games world... |
| 08:56 |
OldCoder |
It needed a specific map |
| 08:56 |
rubenwardy |
was on uone |
| 08:56 |
OldCoder |
The map had been stored on Ubuntu One |
| 08:56 |
rubenwardy |
:( |
| 08:56 |
OldCoder |
Which died |
| 08:56 |
OldCoder |
But a kind fellow Tester found another link for me |
| 08:57 |
est31 |
perhaps we should create a database for minetest maps |
| 08:57 |
OldCoder |
I spent hours debugging a problem. Now the project has a spiffy new world. |
| 08:57 |
OldCoder |
Could be. |
| 08:57 |
rubenwardy |
I had considered that, est31 |
| 08:57 |
OldCoder |
The point is... projects are built on organized data and knowledge |
| 08:57 |
OldCoder |
This is their life's blood |
| 08:57 |
OldCoder |
The bits and pieces of this project are crumbling off |
| 08:57 |
OldCoder |
|
| 08:58 |
OldCoder |
I will offer hosting for all of the files. And make them all available in large Bittorrentable bundles. |
| 08:58 |
OldCoder |
|
| 08:58 |
OldCoder |
The forums are only a small part of the total size of the accumulated archives. In 3 years I estimate 30% of the material will be dead links. |
| 08:58 |
OldCoder |
|
| 08:59 |
OldCoder |
Some of it wasn't really needed. But the entire system is too fragile for a serious project. |
| 08:59 |
OldCoder |
|
| 08:59 |
OldCoder |
s/wasn't/isn't/ |
| 08:59 |
rubenwardy |
http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest/2015-01-25#i_4130775 |
| 08:59 |
rubenwardy |
est31 |
| 08:59 |
OldCoder |
R |
| 09:00 |
OldCoder |
Yes, rubenwardy this should be part of it |
| 09:00 |
OldCoder |
|
| 09:00 |
est31 |
schematics != worlds |
| 09:00 |
rubenwardy |
Irrlicht has so many dead links |
| 09:00 |
rubenwardy |
by schematics I meant .we files |
| 09:00 |
OldCoder |
rubenwardy, est31 if you are the only ones present, take what I have said under consideration |
| 09:00 |
est31 |
yes |
| 09:00 |
OldCoder |
Worlds can be archived too BTW |
| 09:00 |
rubenwardy |
full worlds could be part of it |
| 09:01 |
OldCoder |
Ninja ^ |
| 09:01 |
est31 |
.we files have a very bloaty format |
| 09:01 |
OldCoder |
Unless ZIPped? |
| 09:01 |
est31 |
not good for more than one house or so |
| 09:01 |
OldCoder |
Yes |
| 09:01 |
est31 |
no idea, havent tested it there |
| 09:01 |
OldCoder |
Individual schems still useful |
| 09:01 |
OldCoder |
|
| 09:01 |
rubenwardy |
I like how BAW does it |
| 09:01 |
rubenwardy |
~g build a world |
| 09:01 |
ShadowBot |
rubenwardy: https://www.buildaworld.net/ | Immerse yourself in beautiful worlds, with amazing graphics to inspire your creative (or destructive!) talents. Collaborate with your friends as a team, ... |
| 09:01 |
OldCoder |
I got to sleep soon. But you follow the logic. For the project to grow and survive, these resources need to be organized and shared |
| 09:02 |
est31 |
yes, they are useful, but things like "check out the map I made", or "this server is down now, download the map here" dont work |
| 09:02 |
rubenwardy |
They have a library to drag and drop prefabs froms |
| 09:02 |
OldCoder |
Please consider supporting a move or fork of the forums |
| 09:02 |
OldCoder |
|
| 09:02 |
OldCoder |
rubenwardy, est31 BTW minetest.org is less ugly now |
| 09:02 |
OldCoder |
^ Responsive Mobile Friendly |
| 09:02 |
OldCoder |
Still needs work |
| 09:02 |
rubenwardy |
dat tiling background :) |
| 09:03 |
rubenwardy |
It is better than before, though. Goodwork |
| 09:03 |
* OldCoder |
shrugs :P |
| 09:03 |
OldCoder |
I am learning more |
| 09:03 |
OldCoder |
Next pass will be better behaved |
| 09:07 |
celeron55 |
i agree with OldCoder |
| 09:07 |
rubenwardy |
I'm learning twitter bootstrap ATM, and wordpress |
| 09:07 |
rubenwardy |
I thought you would, celeron55, it's logical |
| 09:07 |
rubenwardy |
XD |
| 09:08 |
OldCoder |
celeron55, :-) |
| 09:08 |
celeron55 |
but who is going to oversee all this stuff; i'm not going to make myself responsible for making sure backups distributed between many people don't contain personal information |
| 09:09 |
rubenwardy |
http://getbootstrap.com/2.3.2/ |
| 09:09 |
celeron55 |
if that group of people contains more than me and xyz |
| 09:09 |
OldCoder |
Same as other large projects celeron55 |
| 09:09 |
OldCoder |
I assume they have hierarchies and committes and... |
| 09:09 |
celeron55 |
none of our websites have been particularly well designed to separate public information from personal information |
| 09:09 |
OldCoder |
policies to prevent individuals from gaining too much control |
| 09:09 |
technomancy |
OldCoder: I'm automatically extremely suspicious of any project or community that hosts data on web forums for anything other than an extra copy |
| 09:09 |
OldCoder |
technomancy, go on |
| 09:10 |
technomancy |
OldCoder: I haven't looked into it, but I'm assuming worlds have a lot of binary data, which git is not good at storing? |
| 09:10 |
OldCoder |
Correct. However, worlds are not the core issue here |
| 09:10 |
OldCoder |
They are an extra |
| 09:10 |
technomancy |
oh, I see |
| 09:10 |
OldCoder |
The map that I needed tonight was only 3MB |
| 09:10 |
OldCoder |
Few people will download all of Silvercrab |
| 09:11 |
OldCoder |
This is about the pure knowledge and bits and pieces needed to deploy it |
| 09:11 |
OldCoder |
The forums, recipes, screenshots, mods |
| 09:11 |
OldCoder |
I.e. forums, moddb, and two wikis |
| 09:11 |
technomancy |
oh yeah... forums are absolutely the wrong place for documentation |
| 09:11 |
OldCoder |
And the files that are linked from them |
| 09:11 |
technomancy |
but I get that git seems intimidating. the UI is just a mess from a beginners' perspective. |
| 09:12 |
OldCoder |
I think this can be worked out over time. How do you feel about wikis? |
| 09:12 |
technomancy |
definitely a step up from a forum, especially if they're git-backed |
| 09:12 |
OldCoder |
Indeed |
| 09:12 |
celeron55 |
< technomancy> I'm automatically extremely suspicious of any project or community that hosts dataon web forums for anything other than an extra copy |
| 09:12 |
OldCoder |
I would not propose to reshape things in one pass |
| 09:12 |
celeron55 |
where do you expect things to be hosted then? is wiki ok? |
| 09:12 |
technomancy |
even when forums are functioning as designed, going back through seven pages of forum posts to try to find the relevant bits is a lot of work |
| 09:13 |
OldCoder |
See celeron55's question; it sounds as though a wiki is acceptable for some purposes |
| 09:13 |
celeron55 |
everything in here is pretty much made by individuals and you can't expect them to have their own professional websites at least |
| 09:13 |
technomancy |
some people take extra steps to try to collect all that into the first post, but that can't be done by the community usually, it has to be the original author |
| 09:13 |
|
twoelk joined #minetest-dev |
| 09:13 |
technomancy |
celeron55: I hope I don't come across as too critical. I'm only saying this because it seems like we feel like maybe we can do better? |
| 09:14 |
celeron55 |
technomancy: be as critical as you want, but it's not very useful unless you actually have some solutions |
| 09:14 |
technomancy |
and I'm sympathetic to the social challenges of teaching github best practices to people who just want to play games |
| 09:14 |
celeron55 |
we're doing our best, mostly |
| 09:14 |
* OldCoder |
feels that wikis are one path |
| 09:14 |
OldCoder |
ModDB is probably useful if expanded to include all pieces |
| 09:14 |
OldCoder |
No more Ubuntu Ones or Mediafires |
| 09:15 |
celeron55 |
ideally minetest would have its own web platform made from the ground up for the needs of this specific community, but we don't have resources for making that happen |
| 09:15 |
* OldCoder |
shudders thinking of Mediafire |
| 09:15 |
technomancy |
there are well-trodden paths that work great for professional software developers, but I'm only just starting to learn the games/modding community |
| 09:15 |
OldCoder |
Agile is good. Platforms can be worked out. |
| 09:16 |
technomancy |
building on git means you get decentralization and easy backups for free, but it comes at a usability/approachability cost |
| 09:16 |
OldCoder |
Well, you said a git-backed wiki might be all right |
| 09:16 |
technomancy |
though github wikis kind of give you the best of both worlds; people don't necessarily know they're using git behind the scenes |
| 09:16 |
celeron55 |
i don't think git is any kind of an issue related to this subject |
| 09:16 |
celeron55 |
do you mean github? |
| 09:16 |
OldCoder |
Hm? Me? |
| 09:16 |
OldCoder |
It was his point |
| 09:17 |
OldCoder |
I'd primarily like to see multiple copies of the 3 key resources *and* an effort to start collecting all the bits and pieces |
| 09:17 |
OldCoder |
Moving from that into |
| 09:17 |
OldCoder |
the type of organized system the 2 of you are discussing. |
| 09:18 |
OldCoder |
I feel a wiki is a good place to assemble knowledge extracted from the forums. |
| 09:18 |
OldCoder |
I don't think it's the only option. |
| 09:18 |
technomancy |
I'm kind of jumping in the middle of the conversation, so sorry for that. but the way I see it, we have several different needs; code storage, data storage, documentation hosting, and discussions, and shoehorning documentation into a platform designed for discussions isn't ideal |
| 09:19 |
celeron55 |
i think the wiki and forums should be combined but i have no idea how that can be practically done |
| 09:19 |
OldCoder |
Subject for forum threads :P |
| 09:19 |
technomancy |
TBH I'm much more comfortable discussing problems and future designs in github issues personally, but I understand not everyone feels the same way. |
| 09:19 |
celeron55 |
for me, all discussion is documentation |
| 09:19 |
technomancy |
I really wish GH issues were git-backed like the wikis =\ |
| 09:20 |
twoelk |
therefore dumps should be offered now and then |
| 09:20 |
OldCoder |
Well, one step at a time. I've stated what I'd like to see. And I'm serious about... |
| 09:20 |
OldCoder |
Writing scripts to scan 10,000s of posts in an offline copy of the forums... |
| 09:20 |
OldCoder |
and retrieving and archiving all the linked files. Bringing them home to the project. |
| 09:21 |
OldCoder |
|
| 09:21 |
technomancy |
documentation has different audiences. what's appropriate for core hackers is very different from what's appropriate for end users |
| 09:21 |
twoelk |
that's why there are two wikis |
| 09:22 |
technomancy |
yep; I think minetest itself does a good job with this. various mods, from what I've seen: not as much. |
| 09:22 |
celeron55 |
so, are people thinking i would be best using my time if i started setting up the forum and other things on my own servers and making an automated system that allows people to download backups of each of them? |
| 09:22 |
OldCoder |
Reviewing |
| 09:23 |
celeron55 |
because xyz isn't going to do that when he hosts them, and i can't do that when he hosts them |
| 09:23 |
OldCoder |
celeron55, there are two types of backups. One with passwords and one without... |
| 09:23 |
OldCoder |
Moment |
| 09:23 |
rubenwardy |
It's needed, but you're still a volunteer |
| 09:23 |
OldCoder |
He sends you snapshots? |
| 09:23 |
OldCoder |
How periodically? |
| 09:24 |
rubenwardy |
xyz considers names of tables to be a security risks... |
| 09:24 |
OldCoder |
Well they are |
| 09:24 |
OldCoder |
celeron55, how frequent are the snapshots? |
| 09:24 |
rubenwardy |
So you'd have to rename them |
| 09:24 |
celeron55 |
i have daily database snapshots, that do not include configuration files, user-uploaded files of the forum or anything from mmdb |
| 09:25 |
twoelk |
according to what OldCoder said I would also presume some backups with and some without linked content included such as files and pics |
| 09:25 |
celeron55 |
that is, the bare essential of avoiding a complete disaster |
| 09:25 |
OldCoder |
Hm. When will user-uploaded files be available to you? |
| 09:25 |
OldCoder |
Does he make those snapshots less frequently? |
| 09:25 |
OldCoder |
Tell me there is a backup of some sort of the uploaded files? |
| 09:25 |
celeron55 |
well anytime i ask, but i don't have proper storage for them so i don't ask |
| 09:25 |
OldCoder |
Hm |
| 09:25 |
OldCoder |
celeron55, could we start with one 100% snapshot? |
| 09:26 |
OldCoder |
Then sort this out? I can take it and I have the passwords already. Or another senior person can do so. |
| 09:26 |
OldCoder |
The backup-less state of some of the components is not desirable. |
| 09:26 |
celeron55 |
this is really starting to seem like i need to get a second storage-focused VPS and start organizing this web stuff |
| 09:26 |
OldCoder |
Probably |
| 09:27 |
OldCoder |
Not possible overnight. But if there is no 100% backup, not the user files... |
| 09:27 |
OldCoder |
It is probably time to make a full copy |
| 09:28 |
twoelk |
could we have a forum guideline that encourages Modders more to put their documentation on the main wiki? |
| 09:28 |
celeron55 |
"a full copy" makes it all sound so easy |
| 09:28 |
OldCoder |
I do not intend to speak lightly |
| 09:28 |
OldCoder |
s/intend/mean/ |
| 09:28 |
OldCoder |
But I do have the storage and these pieces are not very large |
| 09:29 |
celeron55 |
we're talking about many website instances that all hold data in a database and as files, and have their own configurations |
| 09:29 |
OldCoder |
Hm? Many website instances? Can you comment further? |
| 09:29 |
OldCoder |
I see the pieces as: |
| 09:29 |
OldCoder |
The forums, which I have brought up in a copy myself |
| 09:29 |
OldCoder |
They are online right now |
| 09:29 |
OldCoder |
at forum.minetest.org (or maybe it is forums) |
| 09:29 |
OldCoder |
The moddb, and two wikis |
| 09:30 |
OldCoder |
Plus the user uploaded and external linked files |
| 09:30 |
OldCoder |
for any of these components |
| 09:30 |
rubenwardy |
Access denied for user 'phpbb3'@'localhost' (using password: YES) [1045] |
| 09:30 |
OldCoder |
It sounds as though the complete copy would only be a few GB |
| 09:30 |
OldCoder |
Hm? Is that on my server? It will be fine shortly |
| 09:30 |
celeron55 |
well i mean 1) two wikis, which have stuff in a database and as files and a configuration including some plugins, 2) the forum, which again has content in a database and as files and a configuration, 3) mmdb, which again has a database and files, and a configuration |
| 09:30 |
OldCoder |
It is probably due to this being a temporary copy of the server |
| 09:30 |
OldCoder |
Yep |
| 09:31 |
OldCoder |
celeron55, I or other engineers can handle that. I made a fully functional copy of the forums in about 4 hours. |
| 09:31 |
twoelk |
maybe include the skin database |
| 09:31 |
OldCoder |
My server is on a truck somewhere near the U.S. East Coast |
| 09:31 |
OldCoder |
yes |
| 09:31 |
est31 |
truck?! |
| 09:31 |
celeron55 |
a compressed copy will be somewhat over 2GB |
| 09:31 |
OldCoder |
Yes |
| 09:31 |
OldCoder |
Small |
| 09:31 |
OldCoder |
:-) |
| 09:32 |
* OldCoder |
has a few terabytes |
| 09:32 |
OldCoder |
The days of limited storage are coming to an end |
| 09:33 |
OldCoder |
I bought a colocated server. With one of those you aren't really limited. |
| 09:33 |
rom1504 |
a mobile server, that's an interesting idea |
| 09:33 |
celeron55 |
i much more value reliable storage than infinite storage |
| 09:33 |
OldCoder |
Both are sort of needed |
| 09:33 |
OldCoder |
Reliable comes from redundancy |
| 09:33 |
rom1504 |
put a server on a truck, connect the server with 4G or something, then let the truck go anywhere |
| 09:33 |
OldCoder |
I feel that at any one time there must be multiple copies of snapshots available |
| 09:33 |
celeron55 |
yeah except that 4G can't handle the traffic :P |
| 09:33 |
OldCoder |
rom1504, now you arer talking :P |
| 09:34 |
OldCoder |
My server is not running from the truck |
| 09:34 |
rom1504 |
:d |
| 09:34 |
OldCoder |
It is headed for its new home |
| 09:34 |
OldCoder |
s/arer/are/ |
| 09:34 |
OldCoder |
I am on another octocore as a loaner. With a gigabit network I think. |
| 09:34 |
OldCoder |
Most of you |
| 09:34 |
OldCoder |
will be on such servers in the near future |
| 09:35 |
OldCoder |
Times are changing. With endless bandwidth and data all possibilities will be open. |
| 09:35 |
twoelk |
does the truck have a nice minetest logo on it's side? :-D |
| 09:35 |
OldCoder |
I will look into it :P |
| 09:35 |
OldCoder |
celeron55, I respectfully suggest that at least one full snapshot be made. I can host it and make copies available solely to senior MT people. We can then... |
| 09:35 |
celeron55 |
i still don't care about hardware specs; it's more important that the person paying for the server is reliable than any features that the server system might have |
| 09:35 |
OldCoder |
^ Yes |
| 09:36 |
OldCoder |
Again redundancy |
| 09:36 |
OldCoder |
No single person |
| 09:36 |
OldCoder |
Or pair of people |
| 09:36 |
OldCoder |
Mozilla is not run that way |
| 09:36 |
OldCoder |
If there are multiple copies of data; a project can never die or be killed. |
| 09:36 |
OldCoder |
Redundancy is the key that outweighs even apocalypse. |
| 09:37 |
twoelk |
one archive of minetest knowledge for each kontinent ;-P |
| 09:37 |
OldCoder |
Not a bad idea |
| 09:37 |
OldCoder |
xyz has Russia covered |
| 09:37 |
OldCoder |
I am sure there is an Europe option |
| 09:37 |
|
est31 joined #minetest-dev |
| 09:37 |
OldCoder |
I can represent the U.S. |
| 09:37 |
OldCoder |
We do need Down Under |
| 09:38 |
OldCoder |
Anyway there are two types of data administratively |
| 09:38 |
OldCoder |
The complete snapshot which must be handled properly |
| 09:38 |
OldCoder |
And a sanitized copy that could be used to reboot a project |
| 09:39 |
OldCoder |
I propose that a complete snapshot be made at this time. It will have limited distribution. But there should be multiple copies in existence. |
| 09:39 |
OldCoder |
Decisions about redundant hosting of public sites should then be made. |
| 09:40 |
OldCoder |
The public sites may offer sanitized copies of the archives. This is not overnight. It is a proposal to be worked out. |
| 09:40 |
OldCoder |
I offer to do some of the hosting but it does not need to include me... |
| 09:40 |
OldCoder |
I do feel that the bits and pieces linked from the content, Ubuntu One and so on, need to be collected. |
| 09:41 |
OldCoder |
If I can address IRL issues I will spend the time needed to do some of this. |
| 09:41 |
* OldCoder |
has been doing this part since 1995 |
| 09:41 |
* OldCoder |
likes to collect websites and files |
| 09:41 |
OldCoder |
|
| 09:41 |
OldCoder |
I can't deal with captcha sites |
| 09:41 |
OldCoder |
Such as Mediafire |
| 09:41 |
OldCoder |
But any externally linked file with simple HTML surrounding it |
| 09:41 |
|
leat1 joined #minetest-dev |
| 09:42 |
OldCoder |
Can be pulled into an External Files database and can thereafter never be lost |
| 09:42 |
OldCoder |
^ OldCoder proposal |
| 09:42 |
OldCoder |
|
| 09:42 |
* OldCoder |
hopes that these thoughts are a sensible starting point and thanks everybody for their willingness to listen |
| 09:42 |
OldCoder |
|
| 09:44 |
rubenwardy |
sounds good |
| 09:44 |
rubenwardy |
also, are you aware that you post empty lines on IRC sometimes? |
| 09:44 |
* OldCoder |
bows and prepares to sleep. He respectfully suggests further discussion in the near future. If there is a 2GB archive... |
| 09:45 |
OldCoder |
rubenwardy, I have explained those: |
| 09:45 |
rubenwardy |
good night. Sleep well :) |
| 09:45 |
OldCoder |
#1 they are paragraph breaks #2 they are respectful acknowledgments when there is nothing to be added |
| 09:45 |
OldCoder |
#3 they are... |
| 09:45 |
OldCoder |
Zzz |
| 10:01 |
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| 10:29 |
celeron55 |
hmm... i'm not really sure if i want to take this task, actually |
| 10:30 |
celeron55 |
because frankly i hate managing shitty web applications |
| 10:32 |
celeron55 |
anyway, i'm getting the full snapshot from xyz and i'm going to make sure this thing gets somewhere somehow |
| 10:37 |
technomancy |
it does seem unfortunate that people who know the engine inside out are stuck doing administrivia like this. I wish I had a server of my own. |
| 10:37 |
celeron55 |
yes that's what i mean; i could be doing something more productive with the time that i can allocate to minetest |
| 10:39 |
technomancy |
=\ |
| 10:41 |
technomancy |
have you asked for volunteers anywhere? |
| 10:41 |
technomancy |
or I guess there's a bit of a trust issue since the server stores passwords etc? |
| 10:47 |
celeron55 |
well, OldCoder is probably pretty much the only one who could properly handle this instead of me |
| 10:48 |
celeron55 |
altough i know that not everyone trusts him either |
| 10:48 |
celeron55 |
you probably saw his style of doing things 8) |
| 10:49 |
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| 10:50 |
technomancy |
well as a rule I never trust anyone willing to run PHP software on their own servers un-ironically so... |
| 10:51 |
technomancy |
=) |
| 10:51 |
celeron55 |
(and yes, if i publicly asked for a volunteer, people couldn't trust them with the passwords and possibly some other things even if they could prove they have the skills and time to do it properly) |
| 10:51 |
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| 10:53 |
celeron55 |
also hosting the stuff is a larger problem for me than it should be because i would first need to upgrade my VPS, and such an upgrade is too expensive at my current provider so i would first need to switch the provider |
| 10:53 |
celeron55 |
and... yeah |
| 10:53 |
celeron55 |
this is ridiculous |
| 10:55 |
technomancy |
good old yak shave |
| 10:55 |
celeron55 |
altough that's actually a smaller task than it sounds like because i use a configuration management system |
| 10:55 |
celeron55 |
it's just that i need an openbsd vps for it to work because that's what i now use |
| 10:56 |
technomancy |
the curse of success |
| 10:57 |
celeron55 |
i would be totally fine with doing all this shit if it paid my bills but it doesn't |
| 10:57 |
technomancy |
have you looked into funding options? patreon or gratipay, etc? |
| 10:58 |
celeron55 |
well, i know of them, but i'm rather pessimistic about it |
| 10:58 |
technomancy |
I had to shut down the S3 bucket for downloads of one of my projects that really took off because the bills started getting over $45/mo and growing |
| 10:59 |
technomancy |
(was able to move to github, but it broken a number of old scripts) |
| 11:00 |
celeron55 |
i'm quite afraid of sounding like all the "fund my useless life" patreons if i'd try that, and i also don't think this community has a lot of money to spare because it's full of kids |
| 11:03 |
celeron55 |
i don't know though, i might be totally wrong |
| 11:06 |
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| 11:06 |
celeron55 |
also, i find it hard to think in that way after years of just keeping things rolling with a bare minimum effort |
| 11:06 |
technomancy |
I'm thinking about using minetest to teach programming and unix skills to kids. if it works out I'd be willing to point some gratipay your way |
| 11:06 |
technomancy |
but yeah, it is definitely awkward to start it |
| 11:08 |
technomancy |
it's solid stuff though; impressive tech that's a lot of fun. I think it could get some good publicity among FOSS advocates if you can emphasize the "more than just a clone" aspect |
| 11:08 |
celeron55 |
i have experience of doing subcontracting projects and i would probably use the same principles patreon/gratipay money |
| 11:08 |
celeron55 |
+for |
| 11:08 |
celeron55 |
it's just quite different to the "try something and if it works, publish it" thing that minetest has always been |
| 11:10 |
technomancy |
yeah... I get that. it would be nice if it could just stay low-key, but... it's too awesome for that =) |
| 11:11 |
celeron55 |
well i probably should market it as not just the software or the game or something like that, but as doing whatever the community as a whole needs |
| 11:11 |
celeron55 |
...it's what it's about anyway |
| 11:12 |
celeron55 |
or actually |
| 11:13 |
celeron55 |
i can expand this to be a lot more complicated than that; i mean, the history of minetest works like this: first there was the project that i was doing with purely the "try something and if it works, publish it" ideology, but then it changed to this community around what the original thing ended up as, where everyone is given kind of that same opportunity |
| 11:14 |
technomancy |
yeah, you can kind of tell it started that way from the name =D |
| 11:15 |
technomancy |
anyway, I don't know what the right answer is for this community; just something to think about |
| 11:16 |
twoelk |
actually that initiall idea and offering the same possabillity for others is one of the best parts of minetest |
| 11:17 |
twoelk |
and I do think that the path of using minetest as a tool for education would be a great chance for the project |
| 11:17 |
twoelk |
Where coding wouldn't be the only thing minetest could be used at schools for |
| 11:18 |
technomancy |
right; I totally get the notion of offering an engine that makes it easy for you to bring your own ideas to life |
| 11:18 |
technomancy |
but I understand that it's difficult to communicate when newbies come in and just want "minecraft but for free" |
| 11:18 |
technomancy |
I'm an Emacs user, so that notion is very familiar to me =) |
| 11:22 |
celeron55 |
minetest's position is also quite weird in the modern game development world with unity3d and all that |
| 11:22 |
celeron55 |
the fact that it's FOSS is a clear differentiation, but all else is kind of... fuzzy |
| 11:24 |
technomancy |
oh yeah? |
| 11:25 |
technomancy |
I'm not really familiar with that scene |
| 11:25 |
technomancy |
the ability to build worlds with lua is hugely important to me; I can't function without a repl |
| 11:25 |
celeron55 |
i mean, the minetest engine is kind of a toy from a game development perspective, but it's also not a game, and it has this community of people that actually like it quite as-is |
| 11:25 |
est31 |
It isn't a real competitor to engines like unity or godot |
| 11:26 |
est31 |
its a voxel game engine |
| 11:26 |
Calinou |
Godot has no voxel mode :P |
| 11:26 |
Calinou |
you'd have to write it yourself |
| 11:26 |
technomancy |
is it a toy because it's implemented in a way that's considered naive by the pros or because it uses lua instead of forcing people to suffer through writing C++? |
| 11:26 |
est31 |
you might have less possibilities, but making voxel games are far more easier with minetest than unity or godot |
| 11:26 |
est31 |
technomancy, godot uses a high level language too |
| 11:26 |
technomancy |
oh cool |
| 11:26 |
est31 |
dunno bout unity |
| 11:27 |
Calinou |
Unity also has its script language, as far as I know. |
| 11:27 |
technomancy |
voxels are democratizing in a way though; everyone can build content for them instead of needing to hire a big team of artists |
| 11:27 |
Calinou |
Godot uses its own language, GDScript, similar (but not the same) to Python |
| 11:27 |
celeron55 |
technomancy: it's too inflexible for most game developers even if they want to make a voxel-based game; instead it's quite ideal if you just want to host a server to mess around in |
| 11:27 |
est31 |
I think godot has muliple languages in fact |
| 11:27 |
Calinou |
you can code your game logic in C++ too, but it's discouraged unless you need it |
| 11:28 |
Calinou |
in theory, languages other than GDScript can be implemented, but no one got around to it |
| 11:28 |
est31 |
because I read somewhere that its implementation is even smaller than the lua bindingy |
| 11:28 |
est31 |
s* |
| 11:28 |
technomancy |
I've been pretty impressed with lua's power:weight ratio even if it's not my favourite language |
| 11:29 |
est31 |
lua has ... limitations |
| 11:29 |
est31 |
but mostly I like it |
| 11:30 |
est31 |
yea voxels make many things easier |
| 11:30 |
est31 |
you don't have to detail everything into its smallest parts |
| 11:30 |
est31 |
very nice and good concept |
| 11:31 |
est31 |
because in non-voxel games there is always the comparison with reality |
| 11:31 |
est31 |
"look here, this tree group looks exactly the same as the left of it" |
| 11:32 |
technomancy |
similar to cartoons in a way; you just come into it with a different set of expectations |
| 11:33 |
est31 |
yup. |
| 11:34 |
est31 |
so regarding quality, voxel games are somewhere between GTA 5 and dwarf fortress :) |
| 11:38 |
celeron55 |
question: do you think it would be wrong for me to set up a patreon/gratipay and ask money *before* starting to do stuff? |
| 11:38 |
jin_xi |
dwarf fortress is beyond quality |
| 11:39 |
est31 |
that only was about visual quality jin_xi :) |
| 11:40 |
celeron55 |
apparently nobody will answer anything to that question; interesting 8) |
| 11:43 |
technomancy |
celeron55: I don't think it would work with patreon, but it fits well into the concept of gratipay |
| 11:43 |
technomancy |
it's supposed to be about "I like what this guy has done; I'm going to give him more money in hopes that he does more of the same, no strings attached" |
| 11:43 |
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| 11:43 |
technomancy |
because it's explicitly anonymous gifts |
| 11:43 |
technomancy |
patreon is all about strings attached, which can be good in some situations |
| 11:50 |
celeron55 |
that becomes a bit weird when you take into account the fact that i have been focusing on projects outside minetest in the recent years, but i guess i could state that it's explicitly to bring me back to working more on minetest |
| 11:53 |
technomancy |
"Minetest is an infinite-world block sandbox game and a game engine, inspired by InfiniMiner, Minecraft and the like." <- sorry if this is a touchy subject, but is there a reason the first blurb you read about it doesn't refer to it exclusively as an engine? |
| 11:53 |
technomancy |
I got the feeling the intent was to de-emphasize the role of minetest_game |
| 11:55 |
celeron55 |
i'd say the public image of minetest hasn't really been well thought out |
| 11:55 |
technomancy |
is there disagreement among the core developers, or just a lack of clarity in the "marketing"? |
| 11:56 |
celeron55 |
we don't really have people who care about the marketing stuff |
| 11:56 |
technomancy |
I thought I read that minetest_game was basically done, and that if someone wanted to take the idea further it should happen in a 3rd-party subgame... maybe I misunderstood |
| 11:57 |
celeron55 |
yes, that's my statement and it's still valid; however things are moving very slowly |
| 11:58 |
est31 |
btw do you like Calinou's draft for a new website? I do. |
| 11:58 |
technomancy |
do you have a link? |
| 11:58 |
est31 |
nope :( |
| 11:59 |
est31 |
hope Calinou shows up ... :) |
| 11:59 |
technomancy |
celeron55: FWIW I think that's absolutely the right approach. positioning it as a game in and of itself invites a lot of irrelevant criticism and de-emphasizes the strengths of minetest |
| 12:00 |
technomancy |
I am really tired of the tired old "free software doesn't innovate" trope. |
| 12:00 |
technomancy |
this is about enabling people to do things that would be completely infeasible in minecraft as it's designed |
| 12:01 |
est31 |
minecraft doesn't even have an official modding API, am I right? |
| 12:01 |
celeron55 |
est31: i don't think Calinou's draft is that much better |
| 12:01 |
technomancy |
est31: that's correct; the mods break all the time. |
| 12:01 |
technomancy |
it's all based on reverse engineering and violating the EULA iiuc |
| 12:03 |
celeron55 |
i'm quite proud of the fact that basically everything in this community is properly licensed and there is zero legal grayness going on |
| 12:04 |
Calinou |
est31, the “modding APIâ€Â they keep promising is likely to be a running gag |
| 12:05 |
technomancy |
when I looked into the mc modding scene it was a big http://p.hagelb.org/11what.gif and when I found minetest it was like "these are my people" |
| 12:05 |
technomancy |
as a FOSS nerd |
| 12:14 |
twoelk |
In the description of minetest maybe take out the confusing word infinite and add something along the lines of mt is an engine that allows to play subgames inspired by bla bla |
| 12:21 |
celeron55 |
that doesn't make much sense to a random visitor either; describing minetest in a way that is actually true and actually makes sense is hard :P |
| 12:22 |
technomancy |
what about saying "minetest is a game engine and a community; here are some of the kinds of games we have made..." |
| 12:23 |
technomancy |
show by example? |
| 12:24 |
twoelk |
which brings us back to the old problem of which game to feature prominently |
| 12:25 |
celeron55 |
yeah this is a deep hole you're going into 8) |
| 12:26 |
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| 12:26 |
twoelk |
rather minetestwise a deep cave with many monsters and not enough torches at hand |
| 12:28 |
est31 |
especially not enough wood |
| 12:28 |
est31 |
you can craft torches and tools from wood, but you can't find wood in caves :) |
| 12:29 |
technomancy |
ah yeah... curation and favouritism. tricky. |
| 12:29 |
celeron55 |
it could work if we had an integrated system that generated the public stuff from a community database or something |
| 12:29 |
celeron55 |
maintaining a showcase for all the community-made stuff by hand is not something anyone really wants to do |
| 12:31 |
celeron55 |
i mean, it's quite exciting because it's not really something that is often seen, but it's also tedious due to the same reason; there are o ready-made solutions |
| 12:31 |
twoelk |
made a list of games for the wiki that outdates faster than I have time to update |
| 12:31 |
celeron55 |
there are no* |
| 12:33 |
technomancy |
well, you only want the most polished examples on the splash page of minetest.net, but telling someone their subgame isn't polished enough for that is a touchy subject |
| 12:41 |
twoelk |
http://wiki.minetest.net/List_of_Subgames see the explaining for the second column with the links to older irc discussions |
| 12:43 |
twoelk |
oops, rather links to forum threads |
| 12:44 |
technomancy |
wow, that's quite a list |
| 12:47 |
twoelk |
I guess by now most of column 2 (x) is outdated news anyways |
| 12:47 |
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| 12:54 |
twoelk |
we could use this http://www.kiwix.org/ for offline versions of the wikis offered as download |
| 12:55 |
celeron55 |
that's not a real snapshot though; probably very hard to restore back to being a website |
| 13:02 |
twoelk |
indeed, kiwix seems to be an oneway road :( at least I can't find any info on converting back to a wiki |
| 13:08 |
celeron55 |
so, while we were talking i wrote this draft just to see if i could come up with a reasonable text for such a purpose: http://fpaste.org/224649/32300030/ |
| 13:08 |
celeron55 |
don't expect that to go live anyway soon or maybe ever, but feel free to comment :P |
| 13:09 |
celeron55 |
s/anyway/anytime/ |
| 13:12 |
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| 13:15 |
celeron55 |
anyway, i think that's kind of plausible |
| 13:15 |
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| 13:18 |
twoelk |
hm, someday we will need an unified roadmap |
| 13:19 |
twoelk |
though true lines 14-16 might be tricky for a public statement |
| 13:19 |
est31 |
celeron55, have you found a nice engine yet? |
| 13:19 |
technomancy |
wow, I had no idea replacing the engine was even an option |
| 13:20 |
technomancy |
client-side scripting would really own; working within the limitations of formspects is a bit unfortunate |
| 13:20 |
celeron55 |
well that one is rather far fetched but i don't think irrlicht will suffice forever even while everything else would |
| 13:20 |
technomancy |
gotcha |
| 13:20 |
* twoelk |
hasn't seen a convincing replacement candidat yet that addresses all issues |
| 13:20 |
est31 |
yea my thoughts too |
| 13:21 |
technomancy |
is the client-side scripting project still in the design/brainstorming phase? |
| 13:21 |
est31 |
not even there |
| 13:21 |
* technomancy |
nods |
| 13:21 |
twoelk |
more storm than brain |
| 13:22 |
est31 |
we only have determined who does it, not what he does :) |
| 13:22 |
technomancy |
I'm excited about the ability to implement an xterm in minetest since I have the beginnings of a little toy unix |
| 13:55 |
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| 14:06 |
twoelk |
would this be an option to archive the minetest wikis? https://archive.org/details/wikiteam |
| 14:17 |
est31 |
what do people who know more about C compilers know about this: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2695#discussion_r30898053 |
| 14:17 |
est31 |
is nrz right here |
| 14:18 |
est31 |
or is a switch as fast as an array lookup? |
| 14:24 |
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| 14:25 |
exio4 |
est31: a switch may get compiled to a jump table, which would be pretty much a array lookup + jump, anyway, an array lookup would make it obvious that the operation is constant time |
| 14:27 |
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| 14:29 |
nore |
est31: I reckon that a switch is slower than an array lookup because there will be pipeline control hazards |
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| 16:31 |
Krock |
Comments for #2714 please. |
| 16:31 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2714 -- Fix Windows build, clean up included headers by SmallJoker |
| 16:31 |
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| 16:41 |
hmmmm |
Krock: why not just change strings.h to string.h? |
| 16:42 |
est31 |
Krock, the change inside s_security.cpp isn't the right way |
| 16:43 |
est31 |
windows uses \r\n (or \n\r, forgot which way round) for line termination, so what will happen is: |
| 16:43 |
Krock |
hmmmm: "libstdc++ doesn't include <cstring> inside of <string>, unlike libc++." https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/43702e |
| 16:43 |
est31 |
lines either start or end with \r |
| 16:43 |
Krock |
It's \r\n |
| 16:43 |
hmmmm |
Krock: and? |
| 16:43 |
hmmmm |
the point is that it needed string.h, not necessarily strings.h. i said this was a mistake |
| 16:44 |
hmmmm |
what you're doing there now breaks compatibility with freebsd and it's just the completely wrong way to fix it |
| 16:44 |
Krock |
I wasn't sure about that point. I'll remove those lines |
| 16:44 |
hmmmm |
all you needed to do is remove one 's' |
| 16:44 |
Krock |
string is already included in porting.h |
| 16:45 |
hmmmm |
okay then |
| 16:45 |
hmmmm |
maybe just remove the entire #ifdef .... then |
| 16:46 |
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| 16:46 |
Krock |
done |
| 16:47 |
hmmmm |
as for the file mode change, I'm not really sure |
| 16:47 |
est31 |
Krock, do you use minetest inside the context of cygwin, or is it 100% windows only build? |
| 16:48 |
hmmmm |
you need to understand this means no line ending conversions will be performed and therefore you need to account for the extra added \r when you open a file created under windows |
| 16:48 |
Krock |
est31, compiled on MSVC, Windows XP (no VM) |
| 16:48 |
est31 |
because I wonder whether minetest on windows should or should not use \r |
| 16:49 |
Krock |
windows doesn't really care but most editors save it as \r\n |
| 16:49 |
hmmmm |
minetest on windows should place \r\n |
| 16:49 |
hmmmm |
but minetest should absolutely never care about line endings |
| 16:50 |
hmmmm |
so it's pretty much mandatory to ensure that there are no trailing \rs or what have you if you open it as a binary file |
| 16:50 |
est31 |
this is only about reading |
| 16:50 |
est31 |
Its ok for me if its ensured the \r characters do no bad stuff |
| 16:50 |
est31 |
do you know what happens with them? |
| 16:51 |
hmmmm |
they get left along with the input if it's opened under unix |
| 16:51 |
est31 |
yea but here we deliberately open with "rb" |
| 16:51 |
est31 |
which I think is the better alternative |
| 16:52 |
est31 |
as with "r", all size calculations will fail |
| 16:52 |
Krock |
I think lua should get the file as-is, unmodified. |
| 16:52 |
est31 |
http://c-faq.com/stdio/textvsbinary.html |
| 16:54 |
est31 |
also "rb" forces us to take care of \r ourselves |
| 16:54 |
est31 |
but I guess lua simply ignores those characters |
| 16:54 |
est31 |
ok then |
| 16:55 |
Krock |
There are mods created on Windows and there were no problems with the line endings :) |
| 17:03 |
Krock |
est31, is there anything I should change or could you agree with that pull please? |
| 17:06 |
est31 |
Krock, did it fail building before? |
| 17:06 |
Krock |
est31, yes. MSVC doens't know strings.h |
| 17:06 |
est31 |
ok then +1 |
| 17:06 |
Krock |
hmmmm, please? |
| 17:16 |
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| 17:48 |
hmmmm |
yes?? |
| 17:56 |
rubenwardy |
https://meldy.hira.io/Zerobin/?e34d9a8aa421da1f#y5yzNUdeaWQZzonpetyEuabwriJCWxKcAsJpMjAvZns= |
| 17:57 |
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| 18:02 |
est31 |
rubenwardy, what minetest version is that? |
| 18:03 |
nolsen |
0.4.12-dev |
| 18:03 |
nolsen |
If that is correct. |
| 18:03 |
nolsen |
I'm getting the version from what it says upon server join |
| 18:04 |
nolsen |
est31, It first crashed multiple times when I didn't anything the username box. |
| 18:04 |
nolsen |
I'm not sure you could use this crash all the servers. |
| 18:05 |
est31 |
ouch |
| 18:05 |
est31 |
ah I see |
| 18:08 |
Krock |
hmmmm, talking about pull #2714 , est already agreed. Do you think it needs a change or would you agree too? |
| 18:08 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2714 -- Fix Windows build, clean up included headers by SmallJoker |
| 18:08 |
hmmmm |
yes, looks good |
| 18:08 |
nolsen |
est31, I could try testing it again by clearing my username and see if it continues, on Windows and linux. |
| 18:09 |
est31 |
would be great if you did |
| 18:09 |
est31 |
I just wonder: how did you manage to connect with a blank username? |
| 18:09 |
nolsen |
dunno |
| 18:09 |
nolsen |
I didn't. |
| 18:09 |
Krock |
fine. Please push that fix soon. |
| 18:09 |
nolsen |
It just got stuck at "Connecting" |
| 18:09 |
nolsen |
and then I timeout, I found out why and oh look, server crash. |
| 18:10 |
nolsen |
try again, same thing. |
| 18:10 |
est31 |
so the field was blank, was there some content in there before, or was it the first start of minetest? |
| 18:10 |
nolsen |
first start |
| 18:10 |
est31 |
ahhhh |
| 18:10 |
est31 |
usually this is catched by mainmenu lua |
| 18:10 |
est31 |
but not in this case |
| 18:10 |
nolsen |
but I wonder if this could put other servers at risk. |
| 18:11 |
est31 |
either way a must-fix |
| 18:11 |
est31 |
yes indeed |
| 18:11 |
nolsen |
because if someone finds out about this, they could just start crashing all the pub and priv severs. |
| 18:11 |
est31 |
yea |
| 18:11 |
rubenwardy |
lol |
| 18:11 |
est31 |
so two things to do right now |
| 18:11 |
nolsen |
est31, try clearing your name in minetest.conf and connect to 188.165.3.51 |
| 18:13 |
est31 |
yea |
| 18:13 |
est31 |
I can reproduce it locally |
| 18:14 |
kahrl |
a check at network/serverpackethandler.cpp:167 would probably be best |
| 18:15 |
nolsen |
est31, Want me to pull the issue on github? |
| 18:19 |
kahrl |
est31: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/469a0589d49ee112d184 |
| 18:20 |
est31 |
I have a slightly shorter version https://gist.github.com/anonymous/fdcf5e2c7e478ffdba47 |
| 18:21 |
est31 |
gonna push that then. nolsen what is your github username, so that I can attribute you? |
| 18:21 |
nolsen |
UltimateNate |
| 18:25 |
est31 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/e13d2bafc6d0a4fb0d42cf9c229012f4a4f17131 |
| 18:26 |
* nolsen |
goes back discovering bugs |
| 18:26 |
nolsen |
If I can find my minetest terminal |
| 18:27 |
est31 |
? |
| 18:27 |
nolsen |
est31, I have terminals cluttering |
| 18:27 |
nolsen |
and apps |
| 18:28 |
est31 |
weird desktop environment? |
| 18:28 |
nolsen |
no |
| 18:28 |
nolsen |
LXDE |
| 18:28 |
nolsen |
I use a terminal to open minetest |
| 18:29 |
est31 |
ok |
| 18:29 |
nolsen |
I wonder what happens if I use UTF-8 special chars like ÅÃÃÃ |
| 18:29 |
nolsen |
in a username. |
| 18:29 |
est31 |
that should be catched |
| 18:29 |
nolsen |
But if the server can handle it? |
| 18:29 |
est31 |
but please test it :) |
| 18:30 |
est31 |
UTF-8 is one of the weak points of minetest |
| 18:30 |
est31 |
freeminer is better in this regard |
| 18:30 |
kahrl |
the reason only ascii characters are allowed is to prevent impersonation attacks, and to ensure every admin can type every username (in case they need to ban or kick) |
| 18:31 |
nolsen |
It appears the server can handle i t. |
| 18:31 |
nolsen |
hm... |
| 18:38 |
kahrl |
(and disallowing symbols like . and / prevents directory traversal attacks when the server writes player files) |
| 18:45 |
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| 18:45 |
nolsen |
est31: Right now I'm seeing what bugs or exploits there is by using cheat engine :3 |
| 18:46 |
nolsen |
And having 2 clients open on my server. |
| 18:46 |
est31 |
cheat engine? |
| 18:47 |
Calinou |
it's a cheating program :P |
| 18:48 |
nolsen |
http://www.cheatengine.org/ |
| 18:48 |
est31 |
a debugger basically? |
| 18:48 |
nolsen |
It can do speed hack, modify codes. |
| 18:48 |
nolsen |
People could use it to hack. |
| 18:48 |
nolsen |
est31: If you join my server, I can show you under a user name "Test", is running than normal. |
| 18:48 |
nolsen |
If I set any speed higher, the server will detect and reset me. |
| 18:49 |
nolsen |
I'm barely going under the server's cheat radar. |
| 18:49 |
nolsen |
I sometimes have my position reset. |
| 18:49 |
nolsen |
s/running/walking |
| 18:51 |
nolsen |
s/People could use it to hack/People could use it to exploit. |
| 18:51 |
est31 |
interesting program |
| 18:52 |
nolsen |
I tried using it, but I'm not a hacker. |
| 18:52 |
nolsen |
I just use the speedhack, sometimes it doesn't work |
| 18:52 |
nolsen |
or work well. |
| 18:52 |
est31 |
there are multiple definitions of "hacker" |
| 18:52 |
est31 |
or "hacking" |
| 18:52 |
nolsen |
s/hacker/exploiter |
| 18:52 |
nolsen |
I guess this is more of an exploiting tool |
| 18:54 |
est31 |
you can cheat in singleplayer as much as you want, but I guess when you do it on a public server, its owners won't like it. |
| 18:54 |
est31 |
and ban you in most cases. |
| 18:54 |
nolsen |
if they can find out |
| 18:54 |
nolsen |
I'm just testing it on my server. |
| 18:54 |
nolsen |
You might not even know one's exploiting. |
| 18:54 |
Krock |
nolsen, use wpe pro to mess up a server |
| 18:55 |
nolsen |
wpe? |
| 18:55 |
Krock |
"wpe pro", it sends and receives packets |
| 18:58 |
nolsen |
It seems speed 1.8 on the speedhack section is the most smooth option. |
| 18:59 |
nolsen |
Though it's a great way to spam one's console with walking too fast errors :P |
| 19:16 |
rubenwardy |
#1869 |
| 19:16 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1869 -- Add scriptapi interface to HTTPFetchRequest by Jeija |
| 19:16 |
rubenwardy |
What's the stance on this, now that security is added? |
| 19:23 |
est31 |
if, it should be added to the api thats only accessible when you trust a mod, or disable mod security |
| 19:33 |
exio4 |
cheat engine is pretty useless if you have access to a compiler and the source code |
| 19:33 |
est |
^ |
| 19:34 |
exio4 |
I mean, if you give me 15 minutes, I'll have speed hack, just let me recompile the source code! |
| 19:37 |
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| 19:40 |
Krock |
oh, if you're already compiling a minetest speedhack, also include a CPU speedhack |
| 20:03 |
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| 20:29 |
Megaf |
proller: I bet Freemine already has this feature included. #2715 |
| 20:29 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2715 -- ["Feature Request"] Stop crashing the entire server because "a nil value" |
| 20:29 |
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| 20:31 |
Megaf |
paramat: Hi, great work on biomes and mapgen and all that stuff, really, I do appreciate. But, shouldn't water freeze on snow biomes? |
| 20:32 |
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| 20:33 |
paramat |
comments from devs on game#519 would be appreciated :) this issue should perhaps have been in minetest |
| 20:33 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/519 -- Should mgv6 snowbiomes be enabled by default? |
| 20:33 |
paramat |
hi |
| 20:33 |
paramat |
it freezes to icesheet in tundra |
| 20:33 |
Megaf |
paramat: I'm no dev, but I have enabled snowbiomes on my server today and it seems very nice, works good |
| 20:33 |
paramat |
taiga is snowy but not cold enough for ocean to freeze over |
| 20:35 |
paramat |
i guess lakes IRL would freeze in taiga, but oceans would not, so i chose no freezing |
| 20:35 |
paramat |
cool |
| 20:36 |
paramat |
it makes biomes too small though, that will be fixed soon |
| 20:40 |
Megaf |
Devs < https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2507#issuecomment-104761608 |
| 20:41 |
exio4 |
Megaf: what would happen in those cases? |
| 20:41 |
Megaf |
I don't now |
| 20:42 |
Megaf |
IMHO a non declared variable can be as buggy as a nil value |
| 20:42 |
Megaf |
both can cause severe crash/currption because of missuse, both are bugs |
| 20:42 |
paramat |
(comments from non-devs welcome too) |
| 20:42 |
Megaf |
make both fatals then |
| 20:43 |
Megaf |
Problem is, that will require more from mod devs |
| 20:43 |
kilbith |
fix is pretty trivial |
| 20:44 |
Megaf |
paramat: about snow biomes, I do think they could be enabled by default yes. But that is not my final word, I'd like to do more tests and keep observing my servers behaviours for the next couple of days |
| 20:45 |
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| 20:50 |
paramat |
to fix biome size i recommend a spread of (500, 500, 500) for biome noise |
| 20:51 |
paramat |
mgv6_np_biome = 0, 1, (500, 500, 500), 9130, 3, 0.50, 2.0 in .conf |
| 20:52 |
paramat |
if snowbiomes are made default that ^ may become default |
| 20:52 |
Megaf |
That could causes some incositencies(I don't know how to spell this) on mapgen on existing maps |
| 20:55 |
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| 20:55 |
paramat |
hopefully not, as noise params are stored per-world in map-meta.txt |
| 20:55 |
paramat |
it would affect new worlds only |
| 21:07 |
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| 23:23 |
paramat |
hmmmm how do these comments look? https://github.com/paramat/minetest/blob/c7ef3edc43640c52fe09036d685af7ffd5e2bbb6/src/mapgen_v7.cpp#L592 |
| 23:32 |
nolsen |
local finitewater = minetest.setting_getbool("liquid_finite") |
| 23:32 |
nolsen |
erm |
| 23:32 |
nolsen |
wrong post |
| 23:32 |
nolsen |
18:30:35: WARNING: Undeclared global variable "title" accessed at ...esktop\minetest-0.4.12\bin\..\builtin\mainmenu\store.lua:183 |
