Time Nick Message 00:32 hmmmm looks good 00:35 paramat okay. PR is updated and waiting for checks #2713 00:35 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2713 -- Mgv5/v7: Fix generateBiomes biome recalculation logic, improve code by paramat 00:36 hmmmm BIOMEGEN_BASE can collide 00:36 hmmmm BIOMEGEN_V7_BASE and such 00:37 hmmmm if you include both mapgen_v7.h and mapgen_v5.h it would fail to build 00:38 paramat aha 00:38 paramat will fix 00:39 hmmmm paramat, do you know if in minecraft that if you walk into a different biome, will the grass nodes of the other biome you just left change in color too? 00:40 paramat no idea, that seems wrong 00:41 paramat well i doubt it, i would notice that watching MC videos 00:41 hmmmm how on earth does the biome-specific grass tinting work then 00:42 hmmmm is it gradual or something? how about the sky color 00:45 paramat not too sure, think grass colour dither-blends like ours 00:45 hmmmm anyway i was thinking for a while 00:45 hmmmm terrain biomes are hard 00:46 hmmmm they're easy for minecraft because they have *one* map generator 00:46 hmmmm but in a general sense this is much more technically challenging than i had ever imagined 00:46 nolsen Where is the player body movement located? 00:47 hmmmm although I don't particularily like this, it may possibly make the most sense to have each mapgen provide terrain hints like i was saying before 00:47 hmmmm I tried a bunch of things like flood filling closed regions of terrain from edge detection 00:47 hmmmm that failed miserably 00:49 hmmmm nolsen, try content_cao.cpp 00:50 hmmmm rather, sao i meant 00:58 paramat okay PR updated 01:01 nolsen #2716 01:01 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2716 -- Make heads movable when character is moving. 01:02 nolsen s/character moving/character looking 01:02 nolsen erm s/character is moving/character is looking 01:03 paramat i'd love head movement as in MC 01:03 paramat adds so much humour and character 01:03 nolsen It'll be creepy in real life if you couldn't move your head. 01:03 hmmmm lolol 01:03 nolsen "I can't find my cup" 01:03 hmmmm minetest needs a LOT more higher priority work than that 01:03 hmmmm :| 01:04 hmmmm anyway 01:04 hmmmm paramat: looks good to me 01:04 nolsen It'll be like turning around in the old resident evil, that would be creeper. 01:04 nolsen s/creeper/creepy 01:04 paramat thanks 01:04 hmmmm dunno if this is considered weird or not 01:05 hmmmm but sometimes i talk to myself in comments 01:05 hmmmm i ended up writing this exhaustive spiel on what we could do about terrain biomes 01:05 paramat hmmmmm do you have an opinion on making mgv6 snowbiomes enabled by default? i assume if i increase biome noise spread in v6.cpp this will not break old worlds.. 01:05 hmmmm i'll probably clean it up and make a mailing list post about it 01:05 nolsen I would pull request with head movement, but I'm not sure what language do I need to learn. 01:05 hmmmm paramat, it won't break anything, no 01:05 nolsen or where to add it. 01:06 hmmmm nolsen: lol. if you don't know C++, you have an extremely long way ahead of you 01:06 paramat nah not weird, writng you thoughts is useful 01:06 paramat (your) 01:06 hmmmm having the programming mindset is one huge prerequisite 01:06 hmmmm knowing C++ well /enough/ is another huge prerequisite 01:07 hmmmm then, understanding how minetest works is even bigger 01:07 hmmmm without all those three, sorry to say this, you probably won't get very far in core development 01:07 hmmmm :/ 01:07 nolsen Meh, minetest_game is more easier. 01:07 nolsen It's lua. 01:08 hmmmm and by the way, adding head movement is not something trivial by any means 01:08 nolsen No but it would be nice. 01:08 nolsen oh I know what you mean. 01:09 hmmmm have a look at content_cao.cpp, content_sao.cpp, player movement network packets 01:09 hmmmm the gist of what you want to do is include player head pitch/roll/yaw along with movement packets 01:09 nolsen I thought of just doing a different issue which is kicking users for going to fast which I discovered earlier. 01:10 hmmmm and then figure out an efficient scheme to decide when to send head movements 01:10 nolsen There is a way to go over a certain walk speed and barely get caught by the server and get pos reset. 01:10 hmmmm and then modify SmoothTranslator to work on the head mesh 01:11 Wayward_Tab I heard head movement was currently limited by irrlicht...? 01:11 hmmmm i don't see why 01:11 Wayward_Tab Huh 01:11 VanessaE hmmmm: animation blending. 01:11 VanessaE apparently it's very tricky to blend a plain old animation with manual bone positioning. 01:11 nolsen Imagine your character's head staring INTO YOUR SOUL. 01:11 nolsen jk 01:12 VanessaE also, kaeza has done head movement before 01:12 hmmmm ahh 01:12 VanessaE entirely server-side from what I remember 01:12 VanessaE it caused a huge network load but it was just proof-of-contept 01:12 VanessaE er concept* 01:12 hmmmm did he make the player head a separate SAO? 01:12 VanessaE I don't remember how he did it 01:13 VanessaE that MIGHT have been it though 01:13 hmmmm yeah that sounds the simplest but obviously hacky as shit 01:13 VanessaE yep 01:13 nolsen I also know a few more ideas to add to Minetest :P 01:13 VanessaE by "huge network load" I mean a continuous 100 kB/sec stream :) 01:13 hmmmm nolsen, we have enough idea guys. we need more doer guys 01:13 hmmmm :) 01:14 nolsen hmmmm: Do you have enough idea+++...++++ guys? 01:14 hmmmm no idea what that is 01:15 hmmmm VanessaE: I can understand high network load if they're all SAO updates every single server tick 01:15 hmmmm if it's integrated better with regular player movement, you shouldn't have that problem 01:15 VanessaE yep, I think was something very much along those lines. 01:15 VanessaE +it 01:15 hmmmm well 01:15 hmmmm i think it's technically plausible 01:15 VanessaE but the whole point was to demonstrate that a movable head is possible :) 01:16 hmmmm the animation blending thing, we'd have to probably split the head and body into separate meshes 01:16 VanessaE deciding when to turn the head versus the body is easy: always turn the head, unless the player *walks*, then turn the body and head to follow. 01:16 paramat now pushing 2713 01:16 VanessaE yeah, splitting them wouldn't be too hard - model-wise it's easy to UV-map the head from the same texture file as the body, too 01:16 VanessaE code-wise is a different matter... 01:17 hmmmm attaching multiple meshes to a single activeobject? 01:17 hmmmm it shouldn't be too hard 01:17 nolsen Well the head has a bit of a head movement 01:17 nolsen when you walk... 01:17 hmmmm besides, i can see other potential uses for it 01:17 VanessaE nolsen: that's part of the walk animation 01:18 nolsen Though I'm not sure if that's realistic 01:18 nolsen Because I don't walk around with my head as a fish 01:18 VanessaE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTk8ktb466g 01:18 VanessaE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgDcawUioeY 01:18 VanessaE those are all I could find from kaeza's original work 01:18 VanessaE obviously "try2" is the working one. 01:19 nolsen nvm people do walk like their head is a fish: http://www.monkeyfacenews.com/.a/6a0120a5c94e03970b015432ffa442970c-pi 01:19 nolsen jk 01:22 nolsen Does anyone notice that fast move only works when flying? 01:22 nolsen which sounds pointless. 01:22 VanessaE nolsen: hold "e" to run fast 01:22 VanessaE (after you turn fast mode on) 01:23 VanessaE w+e = run forward fast, s+e = run backward, etc. 01:23 paramat done. my commit message ended up as one line somehow 01:24 VanessaE hmmmm: I wonder if this is useful: https://github.com/kaeza/minetest-animplus/blob/master/init.lua 01:24 hmmmm it could be.. shrug 01:25 VanessaE anyway that's all I got :) 01:25 VanessaE I'll try to make a point to ask next time I see him. 01:25 VanessaE bbl 01:25 nolsen I think Minetest needs to implemint Python! :D 01:25 nolsen Python! Python! Python! 01:25 hmmmm sounds great 01:25 hmmmm you gonna do it? 01:25 nolsen Because that is the only language I am really great at. 01:25 nolsen Uhh no. 01:26 hmmmm anyway 01:26 hmmmm paramat: dwell on the philosophical question of how we know the difference between a pond and an ocean 01:26 nolsen how would you impleiment python anyways? 01:27 paramat that's like a zen koan 01:27 hmmmm nolsen: you'd start out by adding the necessary dependency things in CMakeLists.txt, then create a new script/ subdirectory, and basically copy everything there, except do it using the python interpreter instead of lua 01:27 hmmmm and then make a copy of all the functionality of builtin/ 01:28 hmmmm 8) minetest is loosely coupled to lua 01:28 hmmmm paramat: if you can answer that question, then we have a winner 01:28 nolsen So basicly create minetest_game 01:29 hmmmm my answer to it is that we can't know 01:30 hmmmm an ocean is a large body of water that may extend throughout several generated chunks 01:30 hmmmm a pond is a body of water that may extend throughout several generated chunks as well 01:30 hmmmm so the only possible way to discriminate against the types of bodies of water is depth 01:31 hmmmm we'd say something is an ocean biome if it has an elevation between, say, -14 and -300, or something. i don't know 01:31 hmmmm and then -14 to -5 is what, a lake? 01:31 hmmmm then how is that any different from shore 01:33 hmmmm and then how do you tell if something is an island 01:33 hmmmm you can't do any of these things unless you have the rough layout of the entire map beforehand. with minecraft they do have this 01:33 hmmmm which, again, constrains you to a very specific style of map generation 01:34 hmmmm i'm beginning to wonder if this pursuit is a waste of time 01:35 hmmmm or maybe I need to increase the coupling between biomes and mapgens 01:35 nolsen hmmmm: What about the implemintation of having dropped items destroied by lava. 01:36 nolsen Like in Minecraft? 01:36 nolsen That is something I might could do. 01:36 hmmmm that sounds like a minetest_game thing 01:37 nolsen I could also have torches match the same light level given as MC 01:38 hmmmm ehh 01:38 nolsen Because torches in game appear to be low lighted items 01:38 nolsen I have to place more than in MC 01:38 nolsen According to Minecraft, it gives 14 light 01:38 hmmmm are these things you personally want, or things you think minetest is lacking 01:38 * nolsen checks Mine_test 01:38 nolsen minetest is lacking. 01:39 nolsen Though I think it would be an improvement. 01:39 nolsen A tweak I guess. 01:39 hmmmm if you just want to contribute to minetest, take a look at the issue tracker on github 01:41 nolsen It looks easy to tweak all the things to match minecraft, like block resistance against TNT. 01:41 hmmmm you realize that the goal isn't to match minecraft, correct? 01:42 hmmmm anyway, people have made minecraft clone games for minetest 01:42 hmmmm there are several iirc, ask vanessae about those. 01:42 nolsen hmmmm: oh no. 01:43 paramat ocean/pond thing: i came up with 'it's not worth even trying' 01:44 hmmmm ocean vs. pond, island vs. land mass 01:44 hmmmm terrain biome hints should be on a per-mapgen basis 01:44 nolsen island is a miniture version of land, except the outsides are covered with water. 01:44 nolsen There you go :P 01:44 hmmmm there will clearly be a couple that are common to all mapgens 01:45 nolsen pond is a miniture and shallow version of a ocean. 01:45 nolsen and there you go 01:45 nolsen the answers. 01:45 hmmmm lol 01:45 nolsen s/shallow/shallower 01:45 hmmmm nolsen just answered the tough technical questions 01:45 hmmmm anyway 01:45 nolsen My cat won't shut up ._. 01:45 hmmmm we can't figure out what an island is or isn't with perlin noise based mapgens 01:45 nolsen <nolsen> island is a miniture version of land, except the outsides are covered with water. 01:46 hmmmm okay, thanks. 01:46 hmmmm you don't understand the issues 01:46 nolsen like hawaii. 01:46 nolsen Hawaii is an island, correct? 01:46 hmmmm dunno 01:46 hmmmm more like a group of islands 01:46 nolsen yea. 01:46 hmmmm but how do you know that hawaii is an island, but australia isn't? 01:46 nolsen australia is an island 01:46 hmmmm what about the americas 01:47 hmmmm are the americas an island? 01:47 nolsen now what are land is like uhh iraq? 01:47 * nolsen looks at the globe 01:47 paramat minetest has better mapgen than MC anyway 01:47 hmmmm in any case, #minetest-dev is for serious discussion only 01:47 hmmmm banter should be kept in #minetest 01:47 hmmmm so right 01:47 nolsen banter? 01:48 hmmmm basically i came to the conclusion that not only is the level of effort too high to distinguish islands from land masses and oceans from ponds, it's tecnhically impossible due to the chunking behavior 01:48 paramat yes 01:48 nolsen hmmmm: I got the answer! 01:48 hmmmm that doesn't mean there can be no island or ocean biome hints ever 01:49 nolsen Land mass is basicly like a country that isn't surrended by an ocean. 01:49 nolsen or area 01:49 hmmmm they would only be available in PRNG fractal point cloud based mapgens like minecraft 01:49 hmmmm people often repeat that minecraft has a perlin noise generated world, but that's only 30% true 01:49 hmmmm perlin noise is used for the specifics 01:49 hmmmm the overall land shape is formed with a very different algorithm 01:50 nolsen Well let's look at minecraft source code :P 01:50 paramat that's why i find MC's large scale structure lacking 01:50 hmmmm nolsen: again, this channel is for serious discussion only 01:51 hmmmm yeah. MC overuses uniform RNGs and things that are supposed to be random are more or less noisy, but predictable 01:51 hmmmm if they had implemented a biased RNG things would perhaps be more interesting 01:51 hmmmm that's still no reason to jump ship and use their algorithm 01:52 paramat i may be wrong but MC seems like a too-regular patchwork of terrain types, the biome shapes dictate the large scale terrain structure, so it's boring 01:52 hmmmm well 01:53 hmmmm sorta 01:53 hmmmm or rather, no, you're right 01:53 hmmmm biomes dictate everything 01:53 hmmmm we explicitly say that's a horrible idea, give me freedom or give me death 01:54 hmmmm and accept the inherent technical challenges in generalizing something like this 01:54 paramat XL terrain structure should come first and be free, then choose biome on heat/humidity/altitude/whatever 01:55 hmmmm the biome-first approach has its merits though 01:55 hmmmm you're able to choose your own large overall shape 01:55 paramat next i want to try continental scale variation on a scale of ~16000 01:56 hmmmm if you want large continents, no problem, just lower the rarity of land 01:56 hmmmm but then again you could argue that we can do the same by varying water_level 01:56 rom1504 is there any point to having such big map ? 01:56 hmmmm sure 01:57 paramat wow someone thinks it's big! 01:57 rom1504 it would be mainly empty of player and player constructions 01:57 hmmmm that's a change from the usual "I teleported to the map edge and I don't think it's big enough now!" 01:58 hmmmm rom1504, there's a mod to limit world size if i recall right 01:58 paramat it's only just big enough for my ideas 01:58 rom1504 hmm ok 01:58 hmmmm so let's imagine this from an end user's perspective 01:59 hmmmm we write this biome pack with all these cool biomes and decorations 01:59 hmmmm then some people decide to use cooldude23's lua mapgen mod 01:59 hmmmm all of a sudden islands aren't detected as well as oceans 01:59 hmmmm is this inherently bad? 02:00 rom1504 I guess the point of a big map might be something like http://overviewer.org/wow/#/-2410/64/6763/-9/0/0 02:02 hmmmm that looks pretty cool 02:02 hmmmm i'd like to generate something like that 02:02 nolsen hmmmm: Hmm, are you supposed to be able to see in one's locked chest? 02:03 hmmmm i guess 02:03 nolsen Because I originally couldn't now I can for some reason 02:04 nolsen oh that was an owned chest 02:04 nolsen not locked 02:06 paramat nolsen that sort of subject is for minetest channel not here 02:07 nolsen I thought this channel is about bugs/errors 02:07 nolsen and development 02:11 paramat hmmmmm i remember you think there's too many rivers in mgv7. i'm thinking of doubling ridge_uwater spread to 1000 and adding an octave, this will also reduce small-scale looping, more long distance routes 02:13 paramat anyway for snowbiomes i'll wait for more feedback but i think i will make them default and increase biome spread to 500 to match humidity spread 02:53 multicoder Hello, what would cause minetest.get_us_time to return nill? 03:03 hmmmm multicoder, it never returns nil 03:04 hmmmm it always returns a number 03:04 hmmmm if it returns nil, either there's something wrong with your mod or there's a major internal bug somewhere 05:20 paramat one for the mtgame team game#520 sfan5 05:20 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/520 -- Default: New sandstone brick texture by paramat 05:37 VanessaE paramat: it lacks ...contrast 05:37 VanessaE I think the old one was meant to show sort of a mortar between the bricks, but it lacks the "relief" yours shows 05:38 VanessaE so something kinda in the middle would be better 05:39 paramat ah i see, apologies. i could make the shadowed pixels a little darker, depending on feedback 05:41 VanessaE honestly, I'd say more like, take the old one and make the mortar a tad brighter (not much), and make the top- and left-edge highlights as bright as with your submission 05:41 paramat mine has direct contact between bricks, because sandstone is quite light i kept the shadowed pixels fairly light 05:42 VanessaE otherwise it kinda has a "chiseled" look rather than looking like separate, mortared-together bricks 05:44 paramat i'll keep it in mind and see what other feedback there is :) 11:17 Zeno` http://fpaste.org/224649/32300030/ 11:17 Zeno` After all these years, while I don't really like this, I still remain the only 11:17 Zeno` person who 1) everyone in this community can trust, and 2) who is able do 11:17 Zeno` anything from graphics programming to web hosting. 11:17 Zeno` WOW 11:18 Zeno` I didn't realise you were the only trusted person celeron55 :( 11:19 celeron55 wut 11:20 celeron55 oh, well it's a draft and that is a comment to it 8) 11:20 Zeno` just quoting your post (from the logs). I didn't realise there weren't any other trustworthy contributors :P 11:21 celeron55 did you realize though that there is an AND between the points? 11:21 Zeno` it was TLDR 11:21 Zeno` heh :) 11:22 Zeno` anyway FWIW I have compiled minetestserver without irrlicht 11:22 Zeno` modifications are still in a state of crap though (otherwise there would be a PR) 11:23 Zeno` the client is another story... 11:29 jin_xi well, some discussion about to what extent use which engine cant hurt 11:31 RealBadAngel hi guys, i just made minimap shader: http://i.imgur.com/8GVib38.jpg 11:31 RealBadAngel how do you like it? 11:33 jin_xi nice, i like it but have yet to try 11:33 Amaz That's really awesome RBA! 11:33 celeron55 how does that differ from a non-shader minimap? 11:36 RealBadAngel a sec 11:39 RealBadAngel http://i.imgur.com/igsmXtj.jpg vs http://i.imgur.com/Ac3peXZ.jpg 11:41 celeron55 uhm, i don't think any of that difference is justifiable 11:42 celeron55 or are those shadow things realtime when the map rotates? 11:43 RealBadAngel yes 11:44 RealBadAngel shadows depends on yaw 12:12 Calinou will we get transparent water? 12:12 Calinou or at least darken it to compensate 14:31 nolsen "Segmentation fault 14:31 nolsen " wut 14:31 nolsen possible bug? 14:33 sfan5 more info would be nice 14:34 nolsen sfan5: That's another problem, there is nothing else. 14:34 nolsen It just says segmentation fault. 14:34 sfan5 I suggest running it in gdb 15:14 nolsen sfan5: Umm I think there's a problem with the latest commit. 15:14 nolsen Because it destroied my world. 15:15 nolsen I was upgrading to the latest commit because the version I had was exploitable with the nick exploit, so I copied all my worlds, mods, etc over to the new version. 15:15 nolsen and it destroied it! 15:16 nolsen My spawn is buried or destroied by the terrain. 15:19 nolsen https://meldy.hira.io/Zerobin/?3d9d267a41cd29ea#mcI2m2F0DA9UXAyiXsX1PQqftSC+xu1/K2Zs4xZVIVs= 15:19 nolsen I tried changing out worlds since that world is a gonner, but now it throws an error. 15:26 est31 forum is really shit 15:26 est31 you cant even upload images 15:26 nolsen est31: what forum? 15:26 est31 forum.minetest.net 15:27 Calinou built-in images would take too much space 15:27 nolsen est31: try https://meldy.hira.io/anonboard :P 15:27 Calinou especially considering people like uploading PNGs 15:27 Calinou lut.im is fine, but some people think it'll go down someday 15:27 est31 thats precisely why built in images are bad 15:28 Calinou most forums don't allow direct uploading of images, too 15:28 Calinou you should be happy that we allow attachments 15:29 est31 I dont like it 15:31 VanessaE storage is cheap - it would be stupid to disallow image uploading. 15:31 VanessaE est31: upload as an attachment, right-click to get the URL of the image, paste that into your message surrounded by [img][/img] tags. 15:31 nolsen Or use https://meldy.hira.io/anonboard 15:32 nolsen They allow images 15:32 est31 github makes it dead simple: you drag & drop the image to the entry box, and it automatically uploads it 15:32 kilbith nolsen, how is that related with minetest ? 15:32 nolsen kilbith: how is this conversation related to minetest. 15:33 nolsen s/.? 15:33 nolsen s/./? 15:33 est31 s/?? 15:33 est31 :p 15:34 kilbith est31 wants to host something related with MT, and you're pointing out a forum not related with MT 15:34 nolsen He could use any other forum for MT. 15:34 est31 my comment was targeted towards how to improve the forum 15:35 est31 the more parts a backup consists of, the better 15:37 Calinou storage is cheap - it would be stupid to disallow image uploading. 15:37 Calinou on SSDs, it isn't, at all 15:37 Calinou est31, phpBB is a mess 15:38 VanessaE yeah but the forum doesn't run off SSDs does it? besides, even my low-end server (under 40 euros/mo) has SSD + spinning rust 15:38 est31 yup 15:38 VanessaE (2 TB of spinning, I think) 15:38 Calinou sometimes you want SSD-only, eg. for optimal performance or less noise/power usage 15:38 Calinou my PC is SSD-only 15:38 nolsen How is SDD/HDD power usage any different? 15:38 est31 I have a 840 EVO only 15:38 Calinou SSD saves you a watt or two, which is valuable on a laptop 15:38 est31 very dangerous 15:39 VanessaE Calinou: mine is SSD + spinning, but what's that matter when talking about a server? 15:39 Calinou not much 15:39 Krock my PC is HDD-only 15:39 VanessaE Krock: get a current-generation SSD. you will like it. 15:39 est31 Krock, get a current generation OS 15:39 est31 you will like it 15:39 VanessaE anyway point is, storage is cheap 15:40 Krock Krock: get a current generation PC 15:40 VanessaE forbidding image uploads makes no sense in the face of all the other kinds of files that can be uploaded -- which in turn usually contain some imagery 15:40 est31 best you install linux Krock 15:41 Krock I couldn't play Minetest better on Linux with this machine; it reached its limits :P 15:41 VanessaE I'd venture a guess that there's twice as many images currently on the forums, in the form of ZIPs of mods, than are directly visible. 15:42 VanessaE Krock: actually an SSD even helps minetest 15:42 VanessaE faster game start-up for one thing, and tangibly faster map loading as well 15:42 VanessaE and a modern OS handles SSDs better than an outdated one does 15:42 Krock VanessaE, yes, chaching is much faster on non-mechanic storage devices 15:42 VanessaE things like TRIM support, for example. 15:43 Krock *caching 15:43 VanessaE I wasn't thinking about caching, actually 15:45 VanessaE in any case, this is all offtopic for this channel :P 15:45 Krock at least, there's activity. 15:50 est31 why is it OT? 15:50 est31 its discussion bout the forum 15:50 VanessaE because we're talking about disk tech and the forum, not cored ev. 15:50 VanessaE core dev* 15:51 est31 yes but about the forum as a platform 15:51 est31 anyway 15:51 est31 can sb give me the "developer" status on the forum? 15:54 VanessaE and can somebody else fix the G*d damned database so that editing of some first-posts isn't broken? 15:55 est31 ? 15:55 est31 works for me 15:55 VanessaE try editing this one: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7422 15:55 VanessaE just hit "edit" and then "preview" without making any changes. 15:55 est31 I cant, because I dont have the privs :) 15:56 est31 and even if, I dont have any access to the db 15:56 VanessaE well for those who can edit at all, it'll respond with: http://pastebin.com/DdvdA8D5 15:56 est31 so I can't fix it sry 15:57 VanessaE that's why I said "somebody else" :) 15:57 * est31 smells a chown problem 15:57 est31 or chmod 16:52 Mikeonline hi 17:35 Mikeonline is the a server protocol version list out there? 17:35 est31 ? 17:39 est31 Mikeonline, what do you mean?? 17:39 Mikeonline i built server from 12-dev and my stable 12 client cant connect 17:39 Mikeonline the dev version protocol is +1 17:39 Mikeonline but why and how can i check this? 17:41 est31 that should work in theory 17:42 Mikeonline i get protocol_version strict 25 vs 13..24 17:42 Mikeonline you clients version is not supported 17:42 Mikeonline using latest dev server git from today 17:42 Mikeonline and client stable 0.4.12 17:48 est31 yea you enabled strict version checking 17:48 est31 disable it and it works 17:57 Mikeonline yes i know, but disabling could be abused by cheating? 17:58 Mikeonline can i tell the server to allow all versions newer than .12 stable? 18:12 Krock nope. 18:26 est31 Mikeonline, I don't get what you mean 18:33 est31 you can change SERVER_PROTOCOL_VERSION_MIN 18:33 est31 e.g. to 23 18:33 est31 or 24 even 18:34 est31 but even 0.4.11 had protocol version 24 18:34 est31 to achieve actual checking, you can use a special APi 18:34 est31 it has been added by developers with great reluctance 18:34 est31 because it can be abused 18:35 est31 at least their opinion 18:35 est31 the call is minetest.get_player_information 18:36 est31 so if you do a debug build, you get these additional values: 18:36 est31 major 18:36 est31 minor and patch 18:38 Mikeonline i changed min to 24 18:38 Mikeonline and disabled strict 18:38 est31 yea, still 0.4.11 still is allowed 18:39 est31 if you want to disallow 0.4.11, you have to use that API call and kick the players when they try to join 19:43 est31 pushing #2708 19:43 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2708 -- Android: remove broken alignment from Makefile by est31 19:44 est31 except if your "I think the current version is ok too" was a formal "-1" hmmmm 19:44 hmmmm no 19:44 hmmmm why does nerzhul still comment on PRs.... he's not involved at all 19:45 hmmmm est31: here's my take on it 19:45 hmmmm yes, it may be true that it shows up as misaligned when tabs aren't set to 4, BUT on the other hand... 19:45 hmmmm if you make them all one space, it goes from sort of ugly under certain circumstances to VERY ugly 19:45 hmmmm under ALL circumstances 19:45 hmmmm I don't know about you but having a \ after all lines not lined up hampers readability for me 19:46 est31 its basically like the ; 19:46 hmmmm i know 19:46 hmmmm that's what I told myself too for the period of time when I made everything a single space after the line 19:46 hmmmm but it's just way uglier 19:47 hmmmm for some reason \ stands out in code more than ; 19:49 hmmmm I just did it to some of the test.h macros and I think the reason why it's uglier than trailing colons is because 1). it's an explicit space, and 2). it's not a usual syntactic element of code 19:49 hmmmm so it throws you off 19:50 hmmmm macros are all one color for most syntax highlighting editors so there's no way to make them not stand out as much 19:50 hmmmm I think that if you want to write new macros, and you like the one-space \ better, go ahead and do that 19:50 hmmmm but don't go around changing big hunks of pre existing code that you're not even modifying 19:51 est31 I have edited parts of that file 19:52 est31 but there I did align using the old method 19:52 hmmmm I wouldn't appreciate calling it broken either 19:52 est31 because having different styles is even uglier 19:52 hmmmm it's a pure style matter 19:52 est31 alignment that doesn't align is broken 19:52 hmmmm the alignment doesn't align for some people with some specific tab settings 19:52 est31 its like a car that doesnt drive, or a computer that doesnt calculate the right result 19:53 est31 that file shouldn't use tabs then for indentation 19:53 hmmmm god dammit 19:53 hmmmm this comes down to a tabs vs spaces argument 19:53 hmmmm i knew it 19:53 est31 no 19:53 est31 I don't say that spaces are better 19:54 est31 tabs give people choice 19:54 hmmmm but they present this problem at the same time 19:54 est31 but if you destroy alignment when you do chose, you take that choice away 19:54 hmmmm but changing this file to spaces is totally inconsistent 19:54 est31 yes 19:55 hmmmm when you edit a minetest file, you don't expect to have to change editor indentation settings 19:55 hmmmm there are some files already like this in fact 19:55 est31 which ones? 19:55 hmmmm in the scriptapi common headers 19:55 hmmmm and you know what 19:55 hmmmm it's just a pain in the ass because they're indented using spaces 19:55 hmmmm and to stay consistent I need to do tricks with my editor 19:56 hmmmm and if I forget to do that it'll auto convert to tabs 19:56 est31 that is c code? 19:56 hmmmm so, we've already tried it where the entire file is space-indented 19:56 hmmmm and it sucks 19:56 hmmmm yeah, it's c code 19:56 hmmmm i realize there is a difference between source files and build files 19:57 est31 which file again? 19:57 hmmmm c_converter.h? a 19:57 hmmmm and others 19:58 est31 c_converter.h does alignment though 19:58 hmmmm with spaces 19:58 est31 yes 19:58 hmmmm it looks pretty and all but it's simply a pain in the ass to maintain 19:58 hmmmm i've dealt with it though 19:59 hmmmm i didn't bother changing it because i have way better things to do 19:59 est31 yea I know how it feels 19:59 est31 libgmp had it too 19:59 est31 till I came :) 19:59 hmmmm libgmp is different though 19:59 hmmmm libgmp is a third party library, we don't touch third party things mostly 19:59 est31 now its not aligned 20:00 est31 yes, only about how easy it is to maintain or modify 20:00 hmmmm we don't need to maintain or modify third party code though 20:00 hmmmm i'd say just leave it alone 20:00 hmmmm you need to have a really good reason if you want to modify third party code. 20:00 hmmmm if it generates a warning or something, try disabling the warning for that library 20:00 est31 I'm the third party 20:00 hmmmm libgmp?? 20:00 est31 err 20:01 est31 sorry 20:01 est31 csrp 20:01 est31 dammit 20:01 hmmmm csrp is different though because you've tried to integrate it with minetest 20:01 hmmmm since it's actually your own library i'd suggest making it separate 20:01 est31 I've changed the code style because I liked it more 20:01 est31 and because I could 20:01 hmmmm and that's fine 20:01 hmmmm you can change the code style for csrp to whatever you want 20:02 est31 yes 20:02 hmmmm it doesn't need to conform to minetest's code style 20:02 hmmmm but it needs to be treated as a third party library 20:02 est31 yes 20:02 hmmmm i.e. not in util 20:02 hmmmm in fact all that should be in a third_party/ or contrib/ or whatever directory 20:02 est31 like the bundled lua too? 20:02 hmmmm yes 20:03 hmmmm anything bundled 20:03 hmmmm keep it organized 20:03 est31 or just bundled/ 20:03 hmmmm w/e 20:03 hmmmm anyway this has nothing to do with what we were originally talking about 20:03 est31 ... yes 20:03 hmmmm so this is my opinion that you shouldn't change it vs. your opinion that we should because you say it's broken 20:04 hmmmm nobody's opinion overrides eachother 20:04 hmmmm so we should have a vote for this kind of matter 20:04 est31 sounds good 20:04 hmmmm how long do you want to leave it running for 20:05 est31 1 week? 20:05 est31 I'd suggest to make it inside the forums 20:05 hmmmm alright then 20:05 hmmmm was going to use strawpoll again 20:05 Hijiri are we using libgmp to get integers in lua 20:06 est31 no 20:06 est31 libgmp is only for srp 20:06 Hijiri oh 20:06 Hijiri what is srp 20:06 Calinou how about lib/ for bundled libs? 20:06 est31 the new way you log in to minetest servers 20:06 Hijiri put keys as integers? 20:06 est31 yes 20:07 est31 thats what encryption does 20:07 hmmmm yeah, lib/ sounds best imho 20:07 hmmmm it's the most standard sounding 20:07 Calinou even Web projects use lib/ :P 20:07 est31 yea 20:08 est31 csrp won't be abled to use the shipped hash algorithm though 20:09 est31 btw what about sha1.coo 20:09 est31 cpp* 20:09 hmmmm should be sent to lib/ too imho 20:20 hmmmm est31: fwiw, https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/CodingStyle 20:21 hmmmm linux code style says to line them up 20:21 est31 hmmmm, what to crtl+f for? 20:22 hmmmm Chapter 12: Macros, Enums, and RTL 20:23 est31 yea they line up using tab stops 20:23 hmmmm ohh that's not good 20:24 est31 so the kernel style neither supports me nor you :) 20:24 hmmmm yeah we can digress a bit here 20:24 hmmmm the kernel style dictates a tab space of 8 20:24 hmmmm that's ridiculous and goes against the whole point of tabs 20:25 est31 it dictates a tab stop spacing of 8 spaces 20:26 est31 The only really config independent way to use tab stops is the elastic tabstops approach 20:46 hmmmm est31: what is the summary of your argument for changing to a single-space line continuatator? 20:47 est31 right now, they dictate tab configuration in order to be aligned. tab configuration should be free 20:48 hmmmm erm, in other words, should i change any of the wording here: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12247 20:50 est31 the vote closes in 7 days 20:50 est31 you should point that out 20:50 hmmmm doesn't it say that? "Poll runs till Sat May 30, 2015 4:45 pm" 20:51 est31 ah 20:51 est31 even coded to my time zone, nice 20:52 hmmmm depending on the outcome, it'd probably be a good idea to change the macros everywhere 20:52 hmmmm right now it's a mix between the two styles 20:53 est31 yes 23:22 hmmmm hey paramat what's up 23:23 paramat hi 23:23 hmmmm I think I came up with a space-efficient way to map a discrete, uncompressable y-position to a range compressable terrain variance value 23:23 hmmmm I've been going about it all wrong 23:24 hmmmm instead of mapping the Y-range to a range of possible terrain variance values, the opposite should happen 23:24 paramat good grief that's quite a description 23:24 hmmmm compress the terrain variance into 64 or 128 slots, and then have each slot map to a list of biomes containing that 23:25 hmmmm errm 23:25 paramat this detects the roughness of terrain? 23:25 hmmmm each variance slot map to a list of biomes, which are then range-compared 23:25 hmmmm well, that's what terrain variance does 23:25 hmmmm what this does is maps terrain roughness together with y-value 23:25 hmmmm errm, y-position i mean 23:26 hmmmm so this, combined with mapgen hints, I believe is the winner 23:26 paramat i remember you had trouble with variance before, for terrain biome use 23:26 hmmmm http://fpaste.org/225051/14324236/ 23:27 paramat this is good to read =) 23:27 hmmmm so yeah 23:27 hmmmm it's going to have 3 variables in total 23:27 hmmmm the mapgen hint overrides all else 23:27 hmmmm terrain biomes can be either elevation-only, or elevation and terrain variance based 23:27 hmmmm elevation-only are for example ocean 23:27 hmmmm who cares about how rough the ocean bed is, it's still ocean 23:27 hmmmm and then cross a certain point of depth, ocean will become deep ocean or whatever 23:28 hmmmm so then for another example, we have a cliff 23:28 hmmmm there's an extremely high variance value at that point, paired with a high y coordinate 23:28 hmmmm and then the other side of the cliff is either a rocky shore or just something else depending on y value 23:29 hmmmm obviously I didn't get all the biomes possible 23:29 paramat nice you could have plateau biomes 23:32 paramat i look forward to possibly seeing a working example mapgen