| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:01 |
paramat |
i think i will push these new heat, humidity and mgv7 noise params later. feel free to stop me if this will cause conflicts for you |
| 00:06 |
hmmmm |
no go ahead |
| 00:07 |
hmmmm |
you must realize that's only a stopgap measure, you can't possibly expect people to adjust noise each time they add a biome |
| 00:11 |
paramat |
agreed |
| 00:13 |
paramat |
in future perhaps sqrt(number of biomes) will scale spreads as we discussed.. |
| 00:29 |
hmmmm |
now, why sqrt() exactly? |
| 00:30 |
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| 00:43 |
paramat |
i assume a terrain area of spread by spread where heat and humidity vary across their ranges along the axes, so all biomes are present. keeping biome size constant, spreads are proportional to sqrt(number of biomes) |
| 00:44 |
paramat |
hard to describe, but intuitively makes sense to me |
| 00:46 |
paramat |
comes from visualizing heat/humidity voronoi diagrams |
| 00:46 |
hmmmm |
yeah |
| 00:47 |
hmmmm |
I'm going to make a command line option to spit out the voronoi diagrams in image format |
| 00:47 |
hmmmm |
given a set of biomes |
| 00:47 |
paramat |
nice |
| 00:47 |
hmmmm |
but this would depend on the client |
| 00:47 |
hmmmm |
because i need irrlicht as a dependency |
| 00:48 |
paramat |
with the sqrt(biomes) thing we will need a settable parameter to scale biome size |
| 00:48 |
paramat |
a rough biome width |
| 00:50 |
paramat |
spread = biomewidth * sqrt(nobiomes) |
| 00:51 |
paramat |
both spreads equal |
| 00:52 |
paramat |
but because noise biome size will turn out smaller, so param is rough 'max biome size' |
| 00:53 |
hmmmm |
this might be easier said than done |
| 00:53 |
hmmmm |
increasing the spread decreases the detail so we also need to increase the number of octaves |
| 00:53 |
hmmmm |
we can't indefinitely increase the number of octaves, in fact that's quite limited |
| 00:54 |
hmmmm |
even 15 octaves would probably exceed the memory limitations on most machines |
| 01:00 |
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| 01:03 |
paramat |
ah octaves, with sqrt() spread will only grow slowly, then octaves coould be increased even slower than that |
| 01:04 |
paramat |
(could) |
| 01:05 |
paramat |
so limited to range 3 to 6 of whatever |
| 01:09 |
paramat |
only need 3 more octaves to keep the same detail when going from 4 to 256 biomes, no problem |
| 01:10 |
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| 01:10 |
paramat |
will test and push this later #2718 |
| 01:10 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2718 -- Biome API, mgv7: Increase heat/humidity spreads. Improve mgv7 noise parameters by paramat |
| 01:38 |
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| 03:10 |
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| 03:12 |
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| 03:14 |
paramat |
pushing #2718 very soon |
| 03:14 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2718 -- Biome API, mgv7: Increase heat/humidity spreads. Improve mgv7 noise parameters by paramat |
| 03:31 |
paramat |
now pushing |
| 03:36 |
paramat |
complete |
| 04:37 |
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| 04:58 |
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| 05:02 |
est31 |
hey Zeno` ! |
| 05:07 |
Zeno` |
hey |
| 05:32 |
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| 05:33 |
hmmmm |
hey zeno`, what's been up lately? |
| 05:39 |
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| 06:34 |
Zeno` |
not much. Had the flu so I've been in bed a lot :/ |
| 06:37 |
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| 13:14 |
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| 14:29 |
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| 14:36 |
est31 |
pushing in 5 mins https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/6b7fb591cb8d54bc8a43df6adb34a026720b4fe4 |
| 14:37 |
rubenwardy |
Did you make the ASCII art originally by hand? O_o |
| 14:37 |
est31 |
I didnt make it |
| 14:38 |
est31 |
only added large parts of it |
| 14:38 |
est31 |
but yes I edited them by hand :) |
| 14:38 |
rubenwardy |
Ah XD. |
| 14:38 |
est31 |
two things are useful though when doing that: 1. kate's block mode, 2. that key over DEL |
| 14:42 |
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| 14:48 |
Krock |
write it on the worldoftext site and then select - copypaste :P |
| 14:49 |
celeron55 |
i think there are missing arrow heads in the graph |
| 15:08 |
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| 15:57 |
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| 16:57 |
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| 17:00 |
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| 17:21 |
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| 17:21 |
est31 |
celeron55, I haven't added arrowheads to arrows of length 1, because there the arrow would only consists of its head. Except I used ↓ which is unicode |
| 17:21 |
est31 |
and unicode in c files... |
| 17:23 |
est31 |
(that has been previously there too) |
| 17:23 |
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| 17:34 |
Calinou |
I've used Unicode in Carbone comments :P |
| 17:35 |
Calinou |
why is that a problem? any properly set up editor uses UTF-8 |
| 17:36 |
init |
unicode and utf8 are different things |
| 17:36 |
est31 |
One of the features java bragged about was unicode support even inside source files |
| 17:36 |
est31 |
I havent run into issues with unicode inside c files yet |
| 17:36 |
est31 |
but still I'm cautious |
| 17:37 |
est31 |
you know in two weeks people are showing up "hey this comment only commit from may 24 broke my compiler on openVMS!" |
| 17:37 |
est31 |
build* |
| 17:38 |
est31 |
as a fun fact, once I've used umlauts inside a project name in java, because, I've thought, everything will work well |
| 17:38 |
est31 |
so what happened |
| 17:38 |
est31 |
total chaos |
| 17:38 |
est31 |
it worked some times |
| 17:39 |
est31 |
but there were various bugs |
| 17:39 |
est31 |
so I regretted it not using ae or oe instead of ä and ö |
| 17:39 |
est31 |
there you have the unicodeness of java :) |
| 17:40 |
Calinou |
“Now supports äaö!†Minecraft splash :P |
| 17:43 |
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| 17:52 |
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| 18:03 |
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| 20:10 |
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| 20:10 |
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| 20:23 |
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| 20:30 |
paramat |
i will go ahead and make mgv6 snowbiomes default soon |
| 20:31 |
VanessaE |
guess that means snowdrift mod will need some changes? ;) |
| 20:43 |
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| 20:44 |
paramat |
yes it will need an option |
| 20:48 |
VanessaE |
one question though is how do these new snow biomes mesh with SPlizard's snow mod? |
| 20:48 |
VanessaE |
(and plants_lib, which uses the same temperature map) |
| 20:49 |
paramat |
nore sfan5 perhaps sometime you could add comments to game#520 |
| 20:49 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/520 -- Default: New sandstone brick texture by paramat |
| 20:50 |
paramat |
they don't match at all, sorry, an option will be needed |
| 20:51 |
VanessaE |
you should match them by default then |
| 20:51 |
paramat |
because the snow mod's locating of snow biomes makes no sense, and mine does =) |
| 20:51 |
paramat |
.. biome noise should be taken as temp |
| 20:51 |
VanessaE |
that's gonna break maps that use either of the above mods |
| 20:52 |
VanessaE |
even if you added a way for a mod to detect if engine-supported snow biomes exist, no mod will ever be able to accurately guess where a snow biome is |
| 20:52 |
paramat |
don't think so because old worlds will not have snowbiomes enabled by flags in map-meta.txt |
| 20:53 |
VanessaE |
because there will be some parts of the map that are using the older method e.g. snow, plants_lib mods, and some parts using the newer method |
| 20:53 |
VanessaE |
that will help |
| 20:54 |
paramat |
so essentially only new worlds will get snowbiomes |
| 20:54 |
VanessaE |
and if a server owner wants to switch to the newer method? |
| 20:55 |
paramat |
they could add the flag into map-meta, and get a few straight-edged biomes between old and new |
| 20:55 |
VanessaE |
right, I'd expect that |
| 20:55 |
VanessaE |
but the point is it conflicts with how the older mods do it |
| 20:55 |
VanessaE |
which means you'll have desert-temperatures in a snow biome |
| 20:55 |
VanessaE |
etc. |
| 20:56 |
paramat |
yeah mods will need an option added for the new biome system |
| 20:56 |
VanessaE |
isn't there some way to identify that a particular mapblock is being generated with the new method? |
| 20:57 |
paramat |
erm flags may be checkable.. |
| 20:57 |
VanessaE |
I mean something passed along to on_generated |
| 20:57 |
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| 20:58 |
paramat |
the issue is here, comments welcome game#519 |
| 20:58 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/519 -- Should mgv6 snowbiomes be enabled by default? |
| 20:58 |
paramat |
erm possibly |
| 20:58 |
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| 20:59 |
paramat |
'get mapgen params' at the start of on-gen? |
| 20:59 |
paramat |
not too sure |
| 21:00 |
VanessaE |
that might work as long as it's painfully obvious :P that a returned flag basically means "new snow biomes in effect here" or so |
| 21:01 |
VanessaE |
and indeed, snowdrift will be a problem |
| 21:01 |
VanessaE |
because it can't just check those flags |
| 21:02 |
VanessaE |
(assuming the user changes the flags to turn the new biomes on) |
| 21:03 |
paramat |
if a server is switched over, all new chunks will have the new biome system, so mods could just be changed to act in the new way from that moment on |
| 21:03 |
VanessaE |
but what about old chunks where there's active stuff going on? |
| 21:04 |
paramat |
aha |
| 21:04 |
VanessaE |
as in snowdrift mod adding snow to existing chunks |
| 21:04 |
paramat |
indeed no solution to that |
| 21:04 |
VanessaE |
yeah. |
| 21:04 |
VanessaE |
the only thing one could do is remove the mod entirely :( |
| 21:05 |
VanessaE |
unless, as I said, you can add a flag to the generated chunks |
| 21:05 |
paramat |
normally i wouldn't expect any server or world to be switched because of the many straight-edged biomes caused |
| 21:05 |
VanessaE |
i.e. something like minetest.get_chunk_flags(mapblock_pos) |
| 21:05 |
paramat |
so any switch would cause a mess anyway.. |
| 21:05 |
VanessaE |
hah! there have already been screwups like that in the past |
| 21:06 |
sfan5 |
paramat: added a comment to game 520 |
| 21:06 |
VanessaE |
my creative map is the victim of this |
| 21:06 |
paramat |
thanks |
| 21:07 |
VanessaE |
added my comment as well, just for the record. |
| 21:08 |
VanessaE |
paramat: in any case, what I'm really getting at is, adding official snow biomes to the engine like this is a good thing, don't get me wrong |
| 21:08 |
VanessaE |
but you want to provide an upgrade path for users who have been using mods to achieve this effect. |
| 21:08 |
VanessaE |
(since mods == slow) |
| 21:13 |
paramat |
i'll post info in the forum to help modders add an option for the new system |
| 21:14 |
VanessaE |
that isn't an "upgrade path" :) |
| 21:14 |
paramat |
the headache for modders is unavoidable either way though, as most i expect will turn snowbiomes on even if it isn't default |
| 21:14 |
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| 21:14 |
paramat |
hehe |
| 21:14 |
VanessaE |
I don't have anything against turning them on by default |
| 21:14 |
VanessaE |
since that's only for new maps anyway |
| 21:15 |
VanessaE |
nor do I have a problem with adapting e.g. plants_lib to account for it |
| 21:15 |
VanessaE |
it's upgrading an old map that poses the quandry. |
| 21:15 |
paramat |
yes |
| 21:17 |
paramat |
but then it's not advisable to switch an old world over due to the discontinuous biomes, it doesn't justify a complex upgrade path, i wouldn't want to work on that |
| 21:18 |
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| 21:19 |
paramat |
modders will just have to do the work themselves if they are crazy and switch =) |
| 21:21 |
VanessaE |
on a slightly-related note: there's one thing I've been wanting to do for several months now... reset the maps on a couple of my servers, but keeping the user-built content i.e. laying it all down onto newly-generated terrain, where the terrain matches the seed that the map was supposed to have, to get rid of discontinuous areas where interpretation of mapgen params has changed or gone awry |
| 21:21 |
VanessaE |
(my creative map has such things) |
| 21:22 |
paramat |
oh man.. |
| 21:22 |
paramat |
difficult |
| 21:23 |
VanessaE |
that's a hard subject for sure. :) |
| 21:39 |
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| 21:58 |
celeron55 |
hmm i wonder if a screenshot taken from minetest+minetest_game requires the attribution+sharealike stuff to be followed |
| 21:59 |
celeron55 |
actually i wonder because someone basically asked about that |
| 21:59 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: it's generally been held that copyright doesn't apply if the screenshot is low-resolution enough |
| 21:59 |
celeron55 |
the screenshot is high-resolution |
| 21:59 |
VanessaE |
falls under "fair use" or "fair dealing" or whatever you wanna call it |
| 21:59 |
celeron55 |
this same email appears to have been sent to many core developers |
| 22:00 |
celeron55 |
they want to use it as a silly background on the cover of a scientific publication |
| 22:01 |
VanessaE |
wat |
| 22:01 |
celeron55 |
it's ridiculous in all the right ways |
| 22:02 |
VanessaE |
off the top of my head, I would say that CC-by-SA applies here |
| 22:05 |
celeron55 |
i wonder what that means in practice |
| 22:05 |
VanessaE |
an attribute line under the image or in the acknowledgement section maybe |
| 22:05 |
VanessaE |
I don't see any reason to need more than that, anyway |
| 22:05 |
celeron55 |
what would the acknowledgement line contain |
| 22:06 |
celeron55 |
it's not exactly simple as there are many authors 8) |
| 22:06 |
VanessaE |
"Screenshot of Minetest engine and minetest_game, CC-by-SA, copyright various, see Minetest source code and LICENSE file." maybe? |
| 22:07 |
celeron55 |
"Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported (CC BY-SA 3.0) Copyright (C) 2010-2015 Minetest contributors"? |
| 22:07 |
VanessaE |
that would work too |
| 22:07 |
celeron55 |
i guess that's kind of the shortest you can go |
| 22:07 |
VanessaE |
but, I'm no lawyer, so... |
| 22:07 |
* VanessaE |
hands celeron55 a large grain of salt |
| 22:07 |
celeron55 |
well me neither, and i will mention it in my reply |
| 22:08 |
celeron55 |
(Do not take this as actual legal advice though; I am not qualified in that and if I was, these few lines would be way more expensive.) |
| 22:08 |
celeron55 |
^ ...in my own style 8) |
| 22:08 |
VanessaE |
I like the way slashdot et al. put it with their polls: "if you're using these numbers for anything serious, you're insane." |
| 22:08 |
VanessaE |
(or something to that effect) |
| 22:16 |
celeron55 |
http://fpaste.org/225186/05773143/ |
| 22:16 |
celeron55 |
i think i'll reply with this |
| 22:18 |
VanessaE |
"and if I was, these few lines would be way more expensive." heh |
| 22:18 |
sfan5 |
using a minetest screenshot as a cover for a science publication |
| 22:18 |
sfan5 |
i don't even |
| 22:18 |
VanessaE |
sfan5: ikr |
| 22:19 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: lgtm |
| 22:20 |
sfan5 |
celeron55: s/on the acknowledgement section/in the acknowledgement section/ ? |
| 22:21 |
celeron55 |
hmm i wonder if this actually means they'll have to be able to license everything under CC BY-SA that they put over the screenshot including fonts? well i guess or at least hope not, that would be impossible |
| 22:21 |
sfan5 |
well |
| 22:21 |
sfan5 |
putting text on something is not really a devirative work |
| 22:21 |
sfan5 |
you could have the text somewhere without the original work |
| 22:22 |
VanessaE |
right, and besides which, it's not being released as its own file anyway |
| 22:22 |
sfan5 |
we might be worrying about this too much :P |
| 22:22 |
celeron55 |
whatever i'm not wasting more time on this, it's now sent |
| 22:22 |
celeron55 |
it's not like they're running into any actual problems anyway |
| 22:50 |
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| 23:29 |
VanessaE |
YvesLevier reports the following crash: http://paste.ubuntu.com/11337875 |
| 23:44 |
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