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IRC log for #minetest, 2015-10-14

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:20 wilkgr I'm having a problem with the forums - I can't upload my map!
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00:20 wilkgr It's 3 MiB, and whenever I hit the "add file" button, I get ERR_CONNECTION_ABORTED
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00:30 wilkgr Any ideas?
00:34 wilkgr Oh well, uploading to mediafire then...
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03:22 arsdragonfly
03:22 arsdragonfly !server arsdragonfly
03:22 MinetestBot arsdragonfly: Arsdragonfly's Landrush! Minetest server | arsenalmp.noip.me:30001 | Clients: 0/15, 0/2 | Version: 0.4.13-dev / minetest | Ping: 313ms
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04:58 waressearcher2 !g Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
04:58 MinetestBot waressearcher2: https://en.wikipedia.org/w​iki/Ars_longa,_vita_brevis
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06:28 MinetestBot [git] ShadowNinja -> minetest/minetest: Lower log level for benign socket errors 4236792 http://git.io/vCVr6 (2015-10-14T02:22:04-04:00)
06:28 MinetestBot [git] ShadowNinja -> minetest/minetest: Use warningstream for log messages with WARNING 96cc5b3 http://git.io/vCVri (2015-10-14T01:36:48-04:00)
06:28 MinetestBot [git] ShadowNinja -> minetest/minetest: Refactor logging 2139d7d http://git.io/vCVrP (2015-10-14T01:03:54-04:00)
06:34 MinetestBot [git] ShadowNinja -> minetest/minetest: Always use errorstream for DEBUG_EXCEPTION_HANDLER 6f4d6cb http://git.io/vCVoz (2015-10-14T02:33:30-04:00)
06:41 MinetestBot [git] ShadowNinja -> minetest/minetest: Rename macros with two leading underscores 6f2d785 http://git.io/vCVKS (2015-10-14T02:39:37-04:00)
06:59 TheWild yeah, still fixing "something". Last 14 commits were likely not to be noticed by general player. The last one I consider noticeable was "Add viewing range GUI setting". Yet there is no gamma setting but... yeah... who cares?
06:59 TheWild it makes me feel like Minetest started from chaos
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07:01 Xeprione hello
07:01 TheWild hello Xeprione
07:03 Xeprione TheWild: you know what i like the most in the morning?
07:03 TheWild ummm?
07:04 Xeprione a hot Latte with a bar of Kex
07:05 Xeprione and by Kex, i mean Kexchoklad
07:05 Xeprione The only chocolate I can buy at any cost without feeling bad afterwards
07:05 TheWild Bon Appetit
07:05 Xeprione got to go, lesson starting
07:08 TheWild I do not mean that fixing little bugs or improving little stuff is bad. I mean that it takes quite long time to fix e.g. annoying flaws in the API which should never happen or add a feature that should be here from start.
07:09 waressearcher2 TheWild: how much hours per day you are spending playing minetest ?
07:10 TheWild not playing for quite long; spend few hours on monday, messing with technic
07:10 TheWild s/spend/spent
07:13 waressearcher2 why
07:15 TheWild I had fun with Minetest when I found that it has modding API. Yeah, that was great. No longer rage when there is a block missing - just program it.
07:16 TheWild Until I found that the Minetest API has weird limits, bugs and other oddities.
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07:24 TheWild for example: player:get_look_yaw() — yaw in radians (wraps around pretty randomly as of now) - documentation says. I got with this problem once and created an issue. It was quickly marked as a duplicate.
07:24 TheWild so, we ended here: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2658
07:25 TheWild nobody cared about fixing it, so I tried to find it on my own. Not tested, since "nothing written in C++ compiles on my machine", but the 90. put here quite arbitrarily seems to be the cause of the problem.
07:26 TheWild "Why 90. is here? Who made this crap?" - I thought. Then I found that... it was here when Minetest started!
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07:31 TheWild Now is 0.4.13 and when we fix it, we get into compatibility problems with older mods. Uh... no problem, modders will update their mods. Or maybe not. So what's the solution? Maybe put a Minetest version number somewhere in the mod which it is compatible with, and let's Minetest resolve whether it should run the function its proper way or buggy.
07:34 est31 Mozilla/5.0
07:34 est31 we end up with hacks like this: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5125438
07:35 nrzkt2 Mods should update with engine, if a program is not maintained it should not be our problem
07:38 TheWild Thanks est31. What we see, the idea of "versioning"... maybe works... but is not nice for future development.
07:40 nrzkt2 it's nice for engine enhancement for all. Modders should evolve, like core.
07:41 TheWild sofar proposed to do it forward compatible way, that is mark get_look_yaw and set_look_yaw obsolete and use other names for fixed functions
07:41 TheWild IMHO good idea, but 1. it will be fixed and 2. maybe we fix the mess like getpos (no underscores) and get_loo_yaw (has underscores) too.
07:42 TheWild s/but/because
07:43 est31 underscores should be preffered
07:43 est31 sofar's idea is the best here
07:47 TheWild is this legal to define my own functions in minetest table?
07:47 est31 its not nice
07:48 est31 but sometimes people do it
07:48 est31 in order to extend funcitonality
07:49 TheWild I mean: we could fix the #2658 by some mod, by checking that fixed version of function is defined in minetest, and if not, implement it though Lua
07:49 TheWild s/though/through
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07:50 TheWild but it's another poor dependendy in other mods
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07:57 thePalindrome Is this the channel for modding? The wiki says #minetest-mods, but the topic for that says to come here
07:59 est31 thePalindrome, most of discussion happens here
08:01 thePalindrome Ah, alright then. As such, I'd like to ask for a better definition of "Game" and "Mod." Is a Game a "super Mod?"
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08:02 est31 a game can't do much more than a mod can
08:02 est31 so partly yes
08:02 est31 but a game is more a "super modpack" than a "super mod", because its rather a choice of mods than a mod for its own
08:03 thePalindrome Ah, so a Game is a ModPack with a custom Mod as "glue?"
08:03 kaeza thePalindrome, basically, a game is kind of like a pre-made collection of mods that provides a somewhat complete (for various definitions of the word) gameplay
08:04 kaeza +experience
08:04 kaeza by contrast, a modpack is an extension to games. i.e. not really playable as is
08:04 thePalindrome Ah, I see
08:05 thePalindrome So "Planes," "Trains," and "Automobiles" go in the "Transport" ModPack, but that gets put into the "Modern World" Game?
08:06 kaeza that's a good analogy, yes
08:07 thePalindrome Or, in other words, a Game is a ModPackPack? :P
08:07 waressearcher2 http://abstrusegoose.com/249
08:08 kaeza thePalindrome, yep (except that modpacks *can* contain other sub-modpacks, which may contain other sub-modpacks, which ...)
08:09 kaeza xzibit would be proud
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08:09 kaeza waressearcher2, ha
08:09 thePalindrome Alright, I think your definitions make sense
08:11 thePalindrome (Former) Minecraft modder, got sick of the "API" changing, and gave up at 1.8
08:11 thePalindrome Really wanted to put together a Game for Minetest for a couple reasons
08:12 waressearcher2 kaeza: why you said "xzibit would be proud" ? you mean that rap singer ?
08:14 est31 thePalindrome, which page exactly points to #minetest-mods ?
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08:15 thePalindrome dev.minetest.net/IRC
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08:18 TheWild thePalindrome, just because of curiosity. At least few years ago, writing a mod required decompilation of MC, and mods were "installed" this crappy hackish way into MC files. Since then, did MC got some sensible API?
08:20 thePalindrome No, there's a project called "Minecraft Forge" that makes an actual API
08:20 thePalindrome Forge has to be patched in, but forge can load anything else from an actual mods folder
08:20 thePalindrome Configuration and even activation is all handled by Forge
08:24 TheWild nice, though still odd feeling as MC requires third party software to be moddable. It even reached higher level - it requires another third party software (Optifine) to not lag that much, like original programmers couldn't optimize this.
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08:25 thePalindrome Not only that, but all the original team have left
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08:29 Telesight Hello all, What protocol and port is used for a server_announce to the server list?
08:31 est31 HTTP
08:31 est31 POST
08:32 est31 but it is sent "as client"
08:32 est31 to the master server
08:32 est31 then the master server checks whether your server is reachable at the claimed address
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08:32 est31 if not, it doesn't appear
08:32 est31 on the list
08:33 JamesTait Good morning all; happy Wednesday, and happy World Maths Day! 😃
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08:50 thePalindrome Anyhow, in terms of flexibility, how would you rate MT's API?
08:53 TheWild it's "flexible to some extent". When Minetest reached version 0.4 and the modding API started, it was brilliant idea but the implementation is quite messed up. Many basic features are just not here.
08:55 thePalindrome Like what?
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08:58 TheWild Like: tell me what is the thing the player is pointing at. Nope - no such method in API. You will only know when player puches/rightclicks a node or object.
08:58 TheWild but Minetest itself knows what is pointed, because the frame is drawn and in debug strings (F5), the node name is displayed
08:59 TheWild so that just core devs solved it, but didn't provide it to the API.
08:59 TheWild I thought once about player:get_pointed_thing()
09:00 thePalindrome Huh, are the core devs fairly receptive to api requests/patches?
09:01 TheWild sometimes
09:05 thePalindrome Hmmm, oh well
09:05 thePalindrome I suppose I can at least try modding it
09:06 TheWild player:get_pointed_thing() could solve the problem, but is "flexible to some extent"
09:08 TheWild this is because e.g. I get "default:glass". What's the position then? Ok, then {name="default:glass", pos={x=1,y=2,z=3}}. Well, I don't care about glass, tell me what's behind...
09:08 TheWild and the other is maybe we don't want the line of sight coming from player, but a some arbitrary point
09:09 waressearcher2 TheWild: "tell me what is the thing the player is pointing at", can you somehow "emulate" punching of a node and then read "what is the thing the player is punching" ?
09:10 thePalindrome Ah, so basic more along the lines of "So basic you'd have to be a loon to even think that people need to know that?" :P
09:10 TheWild waressearcher2, I'm not sure it is possible. I can simulate puching a node when I know node position, I think.
09:11 TheWild bringing a function as an iterator could solve the most:       for info in minetest.line_of_sight(pos, dir, get_nodes, get_objects)
09:11 TheWild or pos1, pos2
09:13 TheWild yeah, there is a player:get_look_dir(), fortunately works properly so it could be solvable in Lua
09:16 TheWild I already did some progress by resolving the nodeboxes and objects bounding boxes, and the important term in table returned by the iterator is t, that is: if point is at pos, then t = 0; if point is at pos+dir, then t = 1; if point is exactly in the middle, then t = 0.5. t is given in such way that it is easy to calculate exact coordinates of the crossing point within the nodebox
09:17 TheWild Usage: you have computer with 4 buttons in single node, and when player clicks the node, it is possible to distinguish which button was pressed
09:18 thePalindrome Ah
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09:22 TheWild a trivial example how I like to see this API: we have table.sort (lua builtin). This function accepts simple tables of strings or numbers and sorts them in ascending order.
09:22 TheWild Boo - I would say - this function can't sort tables of tables!
09:24 TheWild It can, there is table.sort(tab, callback(a,b)); your callback returns true when a should be before b, otherwise false.
09:24 TheWild Is there a list that cannot be sorted by table.sort?
09:25 TheWild Nope. Can I complain about anything? Nope. The function is complete.
09:31 TheWild I told few days ago: By now, we have grasslike, plantlike, torchlike... Mesh solves the most, but we would like to change the model appearance in different conditions. So... define more node types.
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09:32 TheWild this way LuaController has 4 pins and 16 types of nodes defines. If it would have 8 pins, it would have 256 types of nodes.
09:35 TheWild The node should be allowed to obtain its conditions (e.g. neighbors) and render itsef.
09:36 TheWild By now it is only idea. It would require client-side scripting and not sure about technical limitations (e.g. Irrlicht is unable to do something).
09:36 TheWild and unsure performance of Lua
09:45 TheWild AFAIR, some crappy Chip's Challenge clone, Puzzle Studio, also used Lua as scripting language and it solved the problem of drawing tiles by giving GL context to Lua scripts.
09:51 thePalindrome Welp, time to go wake up in two hours
09:51 thePalindrome I'll talk to y'all before too long, eh?
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11:15 Leoneof hey
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12:03 Leoneof how's minetest nowadays? haven't used it long time
12:03 Leoneof :)
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12:04 Calinou it hasn't changed much really
12:04 Calinou but it has a minimap now
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12:30 TheWild are there plans for bringing other dimensions to the Minetest?
12:32 TheWild I do not mean anything specific, just to give modder a possibility to teleport player between dimensions.
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13:33 swift110-phone Minetest is awesome
13:35 waressearcher2 swift110-phone: how much hours per day you spending in minetest ?
13:37 swift110-phone Not everyday
13:37 swift110-phone But when i do i really like it
13:37 rubenwardy http://gu.com/p/4da38/ :'(
13:38 rubenwardy !title
13:38 MinetestBot rubenwardy: Stephen Fry to step down as presenter of BBC's QI | Media | The Guardian
13:39 waressearcher2 !g QI
13:39 MinetestBot waressearcher2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
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13:41 rubenwardy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QI
13:42 rubenwardy Doesn't matter if you've seen the sources, as long as you don't copy parts
13:42 rubenwardy as for algorithms, can they be copyrights?
13:43 rubenwardy I don't think they can
13:43 rubenwardy waressearcher2,
13:43 rubenwardy VanessaE
13:44 VanessaE algoithms, sadly, can be patented
13:44 VanessaE but not copyrighted.
13:45 VanessaE the clean-room theory stems from the idea that, in the case of proprietary software, you can't easily prove that the code you wrote isn't a direct copy of the original code (either from sources or disassembly)
13:45 VanessaE plus he wants to change the license.
13:45 waressearcher2 I'm asking with no specific reason
13:46 VanessaE given the size of minetest's codebase and the fact that it's C++, pretty sure some of that code will work in a regular C context also
13:46 est31 Oracle got in serious trouble for java
13:46 est31 ermm
13:46 est31 google
13:46 est31 and it was only the API
13:46 est31 everything else was replaced
13:46 waressearcher2 you mean dalvik's code ?
13:47 est31 yea, or whatever its called now
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14:03 waressearcher2 !g dalek
14:03 MinetestBot waressearcher2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalek
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14:55 Darcidride hi, if i changed the "EnvArgs" in the meta_env.txt, is the world will be erased or corrupted ?
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15:26 JohnnyComeL8ly Good morning!
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16:23 nyje #debian
16:24 Teckla nyje: Here, have a /join to go with that #debian  ;)
16:25 nyje hehehe slip of the shortcut ;-)
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16:32 JohnnyComeL8ly Is Minetest compatible with Wayland?
16:32 rubenwardy !g minetest wayland
16:32 MinetestBot rubenwardy: http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest/2014-09-10
16:32 rubenwardy there was a topic about this
16:33 rubenwardy !g minetest wayland site:forum.minetest.net
16:33 MinetestBot rubenwardy: No results found for 'minetest wayland site:forum.minetest.net'.
16:33 JohnnyComeL8ly Oh, well I'll look at the link you found already.
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16:39 Leoneof is minetest compatible with dosbox? :]
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17:08 Topic for #minetest is now Welcome to #minetest, the official Minetest channel | Latest version: 0.4.13 (2015-08-20) | Responses may take a while, so be patient. | Rules: http://wiki.minetest.net/IRC#Rules | Development: #minetest-dev | Server list: http://minetest.net/servers | IRC logs: http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest/
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17:09 Calinou I always disable menu bar in terminal, waste of space IMO
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17:50 Calinou Herobrine is now 16.
17:50 Calinou see Birthdays section of forum
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19:58 hmmmm ooh boy
19:58 hmmmm 16 is old enough to be legal ;) i'm gonna go internet creep on her
19:58 hmmmm why do people announce their age on IRC?
20:11 swift110 lol
20:12 swift110 that is stupid
20:12 swift110 hmmm because in general people have access to things that they ignorantly don't take the time to understand
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20:15 hmmmm 'hey babe a/s/l?  u wanna cyber w/ me?'
20:15 CWz I see that happening everyday on many servers
20:16 CWz I shall now vanish into the fog of fogginess.
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20:26 me_ @testingbot do you hear me?
20:26 bobomb is luaJIT part of the default build currently?
20:28 hmmmm no
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