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IRC log for #minetest-hub, 2017-10-03

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 Fixer i expect mapping kit to just work after crafting it and placing in inventory
00:00 Fixer use is good
00:00 Fixer you can enable or disable with it
00:00 Fixer but for usability it should enable minimap right away
00:01 Fixer mapping kit description should have some hints?
00:02 rubenwardy -> #-dev
00:02 rubenwardy (that's look in dev, not move there)
00:02 paramat no, searching through all players inventories can't be done too often, but i could reduce it in my edit, for now, to reduce complaints
00:03 Fixer sorry if i sounded somewhat rude, but it is _confusing_, it should _just work_ in _obvious way_ :(
00:03 paramat what you expect needs to be coded, you want to do it?
00:03 Fixer sure, will learn cpp in 50 years
00:03 rubenwardy C++ isn't that hard to learn
00:03 Fixer on my todo list
00:04 rubenwardy you just need to start programming
00:04 Fixer rubenwardy: procrastination is hard, and i don't like programming that much
00:04 Fixer i simply do not feel like it is for me
00:04 rubenwardy heh, fair I guess
00:04 Fixer some people like it
00:04 Fixer i'm not
00:04 Fixer i have to report bugs on other hand
00:04 Fixer or it will be fucked up
00:05 Fixer it is how OSS works, at least post bugreport, if you don't code
00:05 Fixer and if you code - write a patch
00:05 Fixer simple
00:06 Fixer just don't forget usability, or it will gives bad impression
00:06 Fixer and there will be more comments "about my brother can code this in 5 minutes, so s---"
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00:06 paramat maybe i will remove the 'use' action to avoid all the whining
00:07 paramat and reduce the interval, for now, until we add inventory callbacks
00:07 Fixer craft mapkit -> it is inventory? - yes - enable minimap right away
00:07 Fixer no mapkit - disable minimap
00:07 paramat well duh yes, as if we didn't know that was ideal
00:07 Fixer tbh minimap is suboptimal, i'm not sure if thats RBA fault, but fps penalty is huge on my hardware (about 30%)
00:07 paramat yeah
00:08 Fixer or even 40%
00:08 Fixer it is very visible
00:08 Fixer and affects gameplay
00:08 Fixer I don't play with, only during some very needed times
00:09 Fixer with minimap
00:09 paramat i think it was optimised recently? but still bad
00:09 Fixer it was, but fps hit is ridiculous
00:09 Fixer now see it from player perspective
00:09 Fixer 2017
00:09 paramat unless it is disabled completely in settings it has an effect whether visible or not
00:10 Fixer oh, there are no tools in hands @ oh cool minimap @ hours of googling how to turn on damn thing @ oh half of fps is gone
00:11 Fixer there very little interest in mtg, only few people working on it, with relatively closed development, this only slow downs it
00:11 Fixer its development*
00:12 Fixer you want dev team to be small, but with OSS that ends up with everyone just AFK and it is dead
00:12 Fixer some cinic may say MTG is dead since like 2012
00:12 Fixer but CARTS in 2016
00:12 Fixer so revolutionary
00:12 Fixer exits into minecraft right away*
00:13 Fixer * probable scenario
00:13 paramat it's not quiet because we want it to be, don't complain about lack of dev time. i have MTG stuff coming for 0.5
00:13 rubenwardy the problem is that MTG is trying to be targeted at everyone, which meant that it is kept very bland and so doesn't fit anyone
00:14 Fixer mtg is incomplete
00:14 paramat stop measuring us to MC standards, we are not mojang
00:15 Fixer wait a second
00:15 paramat stop being so negative
00:15 paramat left #minetest-hub
00:15 Fixer iirc mc developer was alone when he developed most of it, during alpha/beta etc
00:16 Fixer and beta was light years ahead of current mtg, done by one person
00:16 Fixer and mtg is 6 years old roughly
00:17 Fixer ok, by very small team
00:17 Fixer he worked alone before sept 2010 roughly
00:19 Fixer since mc beta they had few people
00:19 Fixer to work on it
00:19 Fixer i will read more on mc history
00:21 Fixer too bad very few players and developers participates in this
00:21 Fixer very little input = chaotic output
00:23 Megaf Fixer, they dont even take the input of a single player
00:23 Megaf Imagine if they had a lot of input
00:24 rubenwardy no one gives us any input, except "MTG isn't complete" and "add mobs"
00:25 Shara Difficult to give input when desired direction isn't known
00:26 rubenwardy that is the main problem, MTG is targeted at everyone and so no-one
00:26 Megaf that ^
00:26 Shara If I knew a certan type of thing was wanted, I could possibly try and help more
00:27 rubenwardy and there is resistance against MTG becoming a game
00:27 Shara At least a couple of devs seemed interested in my handholds mod, but nothing came of it.
00:27 rubenwardy did you make it into a PR?
00:28 Shara And I'd imagine there are plenty of mods like that that a couple of devs have been interested in, but were never more seriously considered
00:28 Megaf Shara, link to mod please
00:28 Shara https://github.com/Ezhh/handholds
00:28 Shara I'm not even 100% sure it would be right to add myself.
00:29 Shara But to me at least, it would be nice if the player gained tools that let them do more.
00:30 Shara So if not this, similar things perhaps.
00:33 Shara But again, it depends if you actually want MTG to include player progression beyond upgrading the same set of tools from one metal to another
00:34 Shara (many of which are skippable at that)
00:38 Shara And no, didn't make a PR, mostly because I'm still unsure myself if it would be right.
00:48 Megaf Im not sure handholds is something to be added to the default game
00:48 Megaf I think it doesnt fit
00:48 * Shara shurgs
00:48 Shara Then work out what does
00:48 Megaf its a great adition to servers, its very nice to have it as a mod anyone can add
00:48 Megaf I just dont think it fits for a default game
00:49 Megaf beside, most hill and moutains have at least one layer of dirt and sand
00:49 Megaf how do you manage them?
00:49 Shara It's not meant to remove all difficulty
00:49 Megaf Shara, dont get me wrong please, Im really impressed by the mod
00:50 Megaf its fantastic really
00:50 Megaf its just too much for default, IMHO
00:50 Megaf because we dont have any tool like it
00:50 Shara Megaf: I really don't mind if you think it fits or not.
00:50 Shara Please don't feel like you have to compliment the mod to avoid hurting my feelings :P
00:51 Shara It was, I think Stu, who suggested it, and a couple of the devs talked about it.
00:51 Megaf heh, I know
00:51 Shara But the problem is, if you say "this doesn't fit because there's nothing like it", then MTG will never have anything thats different from what it has
00:52 Megaf we got to a loop
00:52 Shara So it will never be a "game" and the complaints about how boring it is just carry on
00:52 Megaf Shara, well, Im working on something here, will show you when its ready
00:55 Shara It's up to the devs anyway, not us
01:33 * Shara wonders what Megaf is working on
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01:34 Shara Hi tumeninodes
01:35 tumeninodes Hi Shara
01:36 tumeninodes I've been trying out an older mod https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopi​c.php?f=11&t=9937&hilit=nnt anyone remember this one?
01:36 Shara Hmm, never even heard of it before :)
01:37 tumeninodes there are like 4 or 5 versions ha
01:37 tumeninodes currently, this one does not play nice with the falling node code of built_in
01:38 tumeninodes game crashes if you get a large drop of sand or gravel (in creative anyway)... working on it
01:38 Shara Mods not playing nice... had my share of that today :)
01:39 Shara Formspecs and detached inventories.. no fun.
01:39 tumeninodes hahaha... poor Shara
01:39 tumeninodes Formspecs get such a bad rap
01:39 Shara Horrible horrible things
01:40 Shara Cant resize height of buttons!
01:40 tumeninodes I assume now when someone says "Formspecs" you twitch?
01:40 Shara Pretty much
01:40 Shara Please don't spam it!
01:40 tumeninodes PFSD
01:41 Shara Heh
01:46 Megaf meh, I was expecting an error in the thing Im working on but it went perfectly first try
01:46 Megaf oh well...
01:46 tumeninodes Megaf... it's a trap, be careful :P
01:48 Shara Megaf: what is the thing?
01:48 Shara You can have my inventory errors for me, if you want errors?
01:49 Megaf Shara, almost ready
01:49 Shara But I'm about to sleep :P
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01:51 Megaf aha! hot an error!
01:52 Megaf Shara, almost
01:52 Megaf 30 seconds
01:52 Megaf Shara, there http://git.megaf.info/Megaf/game_data/releases
01:52 Megaf Shara, extract to games...
01:53 Megaf basically the idea is wipe the idea of subgame
01:53 Megaf and have a game called Minetest
01:53 Shara Hmmm
01:53 Megaf with useful mods by default
01:53 Megaf so you dont game minetest_game inside Minetest
01:53 Shara But again, you need to decide which are useful
01:53 Shara And need some kind of mod store type feature
01:53 Megaf you have Minetest and inside a data folder, where the game files are
01:53 Shara Or... I don't know really
01:54 Megaf and I made a decision of the mods we need for a proper and complete game
01:54 Megaf all there
01:55 Megaf theres a little bug there tho, will fix tomorrow
01:56 Megaf bascailly the look and fill is Minetest Vanilla
01:56 Megaf but it has a crafting guide
01:56 Megaf and some nice commands, like /sit and /lay
01:57 Megaf and mobs
01:57 Megaf Still have to find a nice village mod to add
01:57 Shara you have two inventory mods :P
01:57 Shara Well stay away from mg_villages. One server I help on has been testing it out and.. chaos
01:59 Megaf this is how game_data is made and born http://git.megaf.info/Megaf/Minetest_Next_Maker
01:59 Megaf quick and dirty hack
01:59 Shara Hmm, anyway, sleep needed.
02:00 Shara Good night, Megaf the Tiger
02:00 Megaf night
02:01 ThomasMonroe sounds like something thats been missing from Minetest
02:05 Megaf well, no longer, I just made the draft for the solution
02:05 Megaf and keep in mind, we dont remove anything from the current idea
02:06 Megaf keep flexible, keep the subgames thing and mod store
02:06 Megaf we just add game_data and ship/bundle it with Minetest
02:06 Megaf instead of the minimal thing
02:06 Megaf and we call game_data simply Minetest
02:16 Megaf we still have to sort the singleplayer thing
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02:24 Megaf latest version of Minetest by Megaf http://git.megaf.info/attachments/3​5536f59-431c-4f4f-8ff1-62459fb8c466
02:24 Megaf extract in games
02:25 Megaf It's backwards compatible with minetest_game
02:25 Megaf http://git.megaf.info/Megaf/game_data/releases
02:26 Megaf theres still one typo, oh well
03:03 ThomasMonroe gnight all
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07:48 Krock 🍰 Happy 4th birthday, forum account 🎉
07:48 nerzhul Krock, happy birthday 3 october 2013 :D
07:48 Krock hello nerzhul :)
07:49 nerzhul hello Krock , how are you ?
07:49 Krock daily being-tired-in-the-morning-but-awake-feeling
07:49 nerzhul i'm currently working on unreliable part for the network rework, it's not complete yet, then unreliable packet are not received :)
07:49 nerzhul lol :)
07:49 Krock call me when I should test it :)
07:50 nerzhul you can test it now if you want, just server will not handle movement packets and client will not handle AOMsg flagged as unreliable :p
07:51 Krock the more testing results, the better, as an additional dependency must bring some benefits
07:51 nerzhul exact
07:51 Krock is the double free error solved yet? otherwise I can't connect to your server
07:51 nerzhul i fixed some shutdown part, but i don't get time to fix the server force cleint disconnect
07:51 nerzhul it's fixed it seems
07:51 Krock ok
07:52 nerzhul i have a crash at server shutdown to fix which happens on minetestserver binary, and sometimes on client
07:52 nerzhul you should update your source tree to ensure it works properly
07:52 nerzhul now the client send periodical UDP ping to server like old protocol to permit server to send unreliable packets, but it's not totally working (disabled atm)
07:53 nerzhul the ping is handled, server session records UDP endpoint but server is currently unable to answer to the endpoint, i think the udp::socket object is not the right object, because not linked with later setted udp endpoint
07:56 nerzhul the code is stable except the shutdown of server, client and the socket disconnection from one of the endpoints
07:56 Krock heh, client gets disconnected when trying to join your server
07:56 nerzhul oh you crash my server
07:57 Krock sorry :3
07:57 nerzhul no problem, i didn't tested my today work on my remote server atm
07:57 nerzhul i launched it with gdb can you retry ?
07:57 nerzhul i need the trace :)
07:57 Krock got it?
07:57 nerzhul yeah
07:58 nerzhul error when creating udp::socket
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08:12 nerzhul Krock, can you retry please ?
08:13 nerzhul (i cannot i'm at work)
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10:14 IhrFussel Why are you guys saying the mini map reduces FPS by 30-40% I see nothing like that and my PC is from 2009 ... no matter if I enable or disable the map I get maybe -3 FPS
10:15 sfan5 depends on the hardware most likely
10:16 IhrFussel Maybe it also depends on the ridiculous high view range some of you use (150+)
10:17 IhrFussel I'm happy with 50, I don't need to see what's far away
10:20 ThomasMonroe actually no, it does reduce FPS i run on avg 30 FPS, but when i have the mini-map on it goes down to about 15 or less
10:20 ThomasMonroe granted i am on a 10 or more year old computer
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10:31 IhrFussel ThomasMonroe, I see almost zero difference between mini map on/off and I don't believe it's because my PC is "new" it is from 2009 "Pentium(R) Dual-Core  CPU      E5200  @ 2.50GHz"
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10:32 IhrFussel What's your viewing range? Does reducing it improve mini map performance?
10:34 Fixer IhrFussel: what is your fps?
10:34 ThomasMonroe my veiwing range is typically less than 30
10:35 IhrFussel Fixer, I'm standing inside a built city so FPS drop a bit but with and without map 38 FPS
10:36 IhrFussel If I look up to the sky it's constant 60
10:36 Amaz IhrFussel: Are you enabling/disabling the minimap in .conf, or just hiding it with f9?
10:37 Fixer IhrFussel: try walking
10:37 Fixer minimap gives huge fps hit when you walk
10:37 Fixer not just standing
10:37 ThomasMonroe IhRFussel, my computer is an old CF-29 single core with 1.5GB RAM
10:38 Calinou hi
10:39 Calinou a nice writeup on image compression/optimization (targeted at the Web, but relevant for other fields too): https://images.guide/
10:39 IhrFussel I disabled the map in advanced settings...the average FPS go from 38 to 43 but that's not 30%
10:40 IhrFussel Maybe you guys have other software running in the background?`I have only hexchat and minetest opened right now
10:41 rubenwardy I don't get much of a hit from minimap
10:41 rubenwardy but then I'm at 60 most of the time, accept in a city
10:43 IhrFussel Does it really differ that much between CPUs? I mean it can't be the GPU as I'm using the on-board one
10:43 Calinou on my server, I get 132 FPS vs 139 FPS (minimap on/off) in a "busy" area
10:43 Calinou in a less busy area, 164 FPS vs 174 FPS
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10:44 IhrFussel Calinou, yea that sounds about the right drop but somebody mentioned 30-40% drop
10:44 Calinou the "easier" the area is to render for the CPU/GPU, the more FPS you'll lose with the minimap enabled
10:44 rubenwardy but but, eyes don't see faster than 132 FPS
10:44 rubenwardy you don't need 139 FPS
10:44 Calinou true, it's very good to have 132 FPS for a Minecraft-style game already
10:51 IhrFussel Fixer, to answer your question: Nope the FPS when I walk tend to jump a lot but never below 35 FPS (when standing 38)
10:52 IhrFussel Like I said maybe it depends on view range too as I don't need 100+
10:52 Fixer maybe that huge hit has the answer = ATI
10:54 Calinou ATI is no longer a thing since 2006 :P
10:56 Calinou I don't know how people play with short view ranges, I really dislike < 150 myself
10:56 Calinou and I play with 250 on my desktop
10:56 Calinou and (IIRC) 150 on my laptop
10:56 Calinou I mean, Minecraft defaults to 256
10:59 IhrFussel Calinou, Priorities...since my PC is from 2009 I'd rather have more fluent FPS vs large range and stutter
11:00 IhrFussel I mean it is still playable at 100 or 150 for me but I don't see the importance in it...you can't interact with the world 150 nodes away anyway
11:02 Shara Fussel, I don't know how I could ever enjoy playing at 50... you see so little
11:03 IhrFussel On my older PC (Celeron) I played @ 20 cause everything else dropped the FPS below 15
11:03 Shara I usually have range at somewhere between 180 to 250 ish
11:03 Shara I adjust it pretty often, but don't usually go under that unless I'm in a seriously built up area
11:03 IhrFussel I don't need to *see* so far as long as I can just walk in a direction and everything loads sooner or later
11:03 Shara Yea, but I like to see what's been built
11:04 Shara 50 wouldn't even let me look at how most of my own buildings appear from outside
11:04 IhrFussel Well there is still the R key which I use regularly for big projects to look at them
11:06 IhrFussel If you had my PC you'd probably also reduce the view range... If I have the choice between 200 view range and 30+ FPS I'd rather choose the FPS
11:08 Shara Yea, I understand that
11:08 Shara Just it would reduce how much I enjoy the game by a pretty huge amount
11:08 Shara I can image being just about okay with 100 if needed
11:10 IhrFussel Well I guess I just *accepted* the fact that my PC (even this newer one) isn't the best and I need to compromize some things for my enjoyment xP
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11:32 Fixer Calinou: you have high end PC, go to smth like Hometown spawn and you now have 30 fps
11:32 Fixer and you need i7 to handle that crap
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11:55 lisac greetings!
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13:10 IhrFussel If I place a HUD where the mini map is I'm guessing the mini map will hide the HUD
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14:29 IhrFussel Do any of you if the MT license (LGPL 2.1+) permits to use non-commercial music on the server?
14:29 IhrFussel of you know*
14:32 Krock well, it's not directly content of Minetest itself..
14:32 Krock a lawyer could give you a good answer for this - which I'm not
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14:33 Krock NC-licensed textures also have been used in the past, so *shrig*
14:33 Krock \**shrug*
14:37 IhrFussel I'm asking in ##law ... they say if I don't charge for any services it should count as non-commercial
14:37 IhrFussel Or if I don't make any kind of profit with it (ads, donations etc)
14:38 Shara Makes yu wonder a bit about where the apps that do make profit come in...
14:38 Shara you*
14:40 IhrFussel Well in that case the app developers make the profit... I still don't earn any money with my server
14:40 jas_ i'm thinking the lgpl doesn't care what music you play on your server
14:41 Shara FUssel, of course. Just feels messy. :)
14:41 IhrFussel jas_, But there's lots of free music that you cannot use commercially like www.jamendo.com
14:42 jas_ is your server a commercial enterprise?  does the gpl have anything to do with this?
14:43 IhrFussel Well the music will be integrated into the MT engine so I thought the MT license likely applies
14:43 jas_ if you're modifying lgpl software, that is different
14:43 jas_ you must redistribute if asked, and allow changes.  you cannot afford those privs if you're using NC content
14:48 jas_ for a good example of separation of gpl and nc assets, see doom, quake, etc
14:57 IhrFussel Well the "lawyers" told me that if the server doesn't intend to make any profit from the music I'm good to go...I also explained to them the problem with ad-infested/paywalls implemented clone apps and they said since I cannot control those clients it's probably just their problem if the client of them plays non-commercial music
14:58 jas_ ianal
14:58 jas_ https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/6485/​files#diff-95e351a3805a1dafa85bf20b81d086e6R256
14:58 jas_ I don't get this, am I supoosed to enter a new option on cmake?  i did install libasio-dev
14:58 jas_ 1.10.8 on deb9
14:59 jas_ like i said, i doubt the gpl cares about the music you play on your server; even if there are others connecting to it with violated software
14:59 jas_ *gasp*
15:00 IhrFussel I think the LGPL does allow commercial use but even if it does my server doesn't use that right
15:01 IhrFussel Or priv*
15:01 jas_ i know, and i specifically didn't want to mention that about the lgpl.  regardless, at the end of the day, the question of your musical preferences probably doesn't matter on iota
15:03 IhrFussel I mean the law wouldn't make sense to me if the server hoster was reposnsible for external violations they have no control over
15:03 jas_ right, no it's a great question but
15:03 jas_ i mean, technically you should just use gpl everything
15:03 jas_ but that's not practicle
15:04 jas_ practical
15:04 jas_ haha
15:05 jas_ the question of streamed software is another aspect, i'm even less familiar with
15:05 jas_ which would of course include its assets, and the (l)gpl isn't made for binary data (music)
15:07 jas_ you could use it, but really it is all about intentions.  what do you intend to do?
15:08 IhrFussel I was thinking about adding some music snippets to certain nodes
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15:10 jas_ easily fair use, i'd say.
15:12 jas_ of course, when redistributing your server's sub-game, for example, you would simply omit those from the package
15:12 jas_ but i don't know if you do that, or keep your server local, so to speak
15:12 jas_ (i don't even want to look at mine, right now, after this convo;)
15:14 IhrFussel Well Krock already mentioned that there have been files in the past that were labeled as NC but still used by mods even though the modders couldn't even know if the servers that run the mod are all NC
15:14 jas_ minetest is a special beast.  since mtg is lgpl, it can get away with a bit more.  but if you use any gpl mods in your dist, or whatever, it would change things.
15:15 jas_ still anything NC in mt should probably rm asap
15:15 jas_ lol *heads out for a respiratory treatment*
15:24 sfan5 (haven't followed the discussion) why should NC licensed content be removed from mt/mtg?
15:26 IhrFussel sfan5, probably because we cannot guarantee that the server hosters will provide their service for free
15:27 sfan5 so it's to remove burden of checking licensing from server operators
15:28 IhrFussel Well and possibly app devs that included ads/paywalls into their clients
15:28 IhrFussel Although I wouldn't be against them getting in trouble
15:29 sfan5 if you're developing an app you need to worry about licensing anyway
15:29 sfan5 but making sure server admins don't need to do that sounds reasonable
15:31 IhrFussel sfan5, yes but if an ad-infested client downloads NC media from a server (whether NC or not) it's a license violation correct?
15:31 sfan5 it's not
15:32 sfan5 hmm maybe
15:32 sfan5 but it's definitely not your worry as *you* are not making money on it
15:32 IhrFussel I mean the client that uses the files is commercial by definition
15:33 sfan5 indeed
15:33 sfan5 might actaully be a license violation, but the person violating the license in that case is the app developer not you
15:33 IhrFussel Yes but the app devs couldn't know that their users are downloading a NC file from a server...so it's kinda *not fair* to them
15:34 sfan5 yea
15:35 IhrFussel But I'm against ads/paywalls in OSS generally ... paywalls are even worse cause they block users from using the features the server permit
15:37 IhrFussel You said you want to try to pull the mobile players to the official client... which will require certain design changes in the Android app first and the one person who offered help likely cannot work on it before 2018
15:38 IhrFussel But I feel like the app NEEDS those improvements before 0.5.0 releases
15:40 IhrFussel I had quite a few players that seriously said "sorry but i can't use this app, it's too bad i'll switch back to the one with the ads"
15:41 rubenwardy there isn't and NC content in mt/mtg though?
15:43 jas_ i'm bantering, and i like gpl and cc-by-at
15:43 jas_ that's why
15:43 jas_ HAHA
15:43 jas_ oops, by-sa
15:44 IhrFussel Krock didn't mention MTG he only said NC textures were used in the past
15:45 jas_ now it's the streaming software stuff i wonder about, because it's kinda like publishing, but if no one asks for the code -- it's moot i think
15:46 IhrFussel But still if modders use NC stuff they could cause trouble for server owners who use it commercially
15:46 jas_ or anyone, but that's their problemo
15:46 jas_ so what music you like?  ac/dc?
15:46 * jas_ just got an idea
15:47 rubenwardy server owners shouldn't use mods with NC stuff
15:47 rubenwardy if they
15:47 rubenwardy if they're going to use it commercially, that is
15:47 rubenwardy not heard of any servers doing anything commercially, though
15:48 Krock "Buy 50 diamond blocks now for only $6.66!"
15:48 rubenwardy there are minecraft-based companies that make millions of pounds a year from MC IAPs
15:49 IhrFussel I also don't know of any commercial public server... but a player once asked me if I could give him the WE priv for money xP
15:49 Shara Actually I know of at least one server that had "buy items for real money" type offers.
15:49 rubenwardy also competitions etc
15:49 Shara And back when I saw it I pointed out to them they were quite likely breaking soem licenses for textures they used
15:50 jas_ bingo
15:50 Shara Since they were using some Minecraft texture packs that had non-commericial listed under conditions of use when I checked
15:51 IhrFussel But isn't it *very* difficult for a server owner to find out whether or not the files are NC? I mean sometimes modders give files a certain license but it's not the correct one
15:51 Shara Fussel, if you want to have a commercial server, you should be making sure you check things you use have a license
15:51 IhrFussel Modders could lie I mean...they could make a NC texture "commercial"
15:52 Shara I'm not a lawyer, but I guess there comes a point where it would be the modder who is in the wrong not you... so long as you change it if it's pointed out to you
15:54 jas_ it's who's distributing what, under what costs.  so if a third party makes the error, and he redistributes it, he is in error, too.
15:54 jas_ if he makes money and there's a nc license anywhere that's kinda.. against the license, i'd think
15:54 jas_ unless
15:54 jas_ you contact the author, get his permission
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16:23 jas_ hi sofar
16:23 jas_ https://github.com/minetest-mods/w​arps/pull/2#issuecomment-333895746
16:23 sofar shoot down a github PR, you get pinged in IRC
16:24 sofar :P
16:24 sofar oh lol, I never listened to it
16:24 jas_ apologies
16:24 sofar somehow ogg files don't play in my browser at work
16:24 jas_ anyway yea
16:24 jas_ it's your license, so, you tell me.
16:25 sofar no worries, what did you do with the sound effect then?
16:25 jas_ oh jesus let me take a listen i don't remember
16:25 * jas_ stops the nirvana
16:25 sofar lol
16:25 jas_ fading
16:25 jas_ echo
16:25 jas_ lemme listen to the old one
16:25 sofar I've been slacking on minetest-mods, just serviced a bunch of PRs to make up for it
16:26 sofar all my time going into "Inside the box"
16:26 jas_ eq
16:27 jas_ not much.  i keep meaning to check it out, i think it looks cool
16:27 jas_ i upvoted your stuff, man haha
16:29 sofar it's been fun, in a way because slowly it's creating a bit of a content generation factory
16:29 sofar the more people play, the more they'll be enticed to build
16:30 sofar and so there will be more to play ... !
16:30 jas_ at first, i thought and wondered about itb.exe, but i wonder now how much it's tied to being a centralized online server
16:30 jas_ like i thought it could be a singleplayer puzzler
16:30 sofar itb.exe? wha?
16:30 jas_ whole different game than minetest, but i been watching the videos
16:30 sofar makes no sense
16:31 sofar the crux is that it's online so you can share creations
16:31 sofar without that, it's a dead-end game
16:31 jas_ at first i thought it would be a subgame, but totally unlike MTG just puzzles
16:31 jas_ so like a whole other game, which i thought was cool.  this looks cool too
16:31 sofar the code is irrelevant, all the original parts are what people build with it
16:31 jas_ definitely interesting
16:32 sofar just try it, btw, it takes 2 minutes to do the first 2 puzzles and it remembers your progress
16:32 sofar with ~ 45 puzzles atm, you can come back later and do more
16:32 jas_ you have a connection from me yesterday, but i didn't play it
16:32 jas_ someone else did, they got scared sofar!
16:32 sofar I added a puzzle yesterday that most players need 30+ minutes for
16:32 jas_ hahha
16:33 jas_ i don't do puzzles
16:34 sofar well, after you finish the tutorial you can build them
16:34 sofar but, it's a server for puzzlers, one way or another
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17:27 Calinou hi
17:28 Calinou <sfan5> (haven't followed the discussion) why should NC licensed content be removed from mt/mtg?
17:28 Calinou there's CC -NC stuff in minetest_game now? :(
17:28 Calinou that's a no-go for Debian/Fedora
17:28 Calinou (Debian will allow it, but really reluctantly and minetest-data will go to `non-free`, and minetest to `contrib`)
17:28 Calinou (and Fedora will just nuke it entirely)
17:29 rubenwardy there isn't
17:29 Calinou I hope there won't be in the future, that'd be a terrible setback (obligatory RMS reference)
17:30 Fixer oh, i need to solve some puzzles
17:31 Fixer IhrFussel: i have other situation with minimap, i can have 90fps (capped) and when walking it looses 30-40 fps
17:32 Fixer Calinou: "ATI is no longer a thing since 2006 :P" drivers still have ati*.dll, so it kinda lives
17:32 Fixer everyone knows it is ATI, you can't hide it, its bugs and traditions
17:32 IhrFussel Fixer, did you try with view range 50 for testing?
17:33 Fixer all glory to RBA for fixing that innocent z-buffer bug that was fixed about 5 years later in minetest, ATI users love
17:34 Fixer one line fix that makes huuge difference for 30% of PC userbase on ATI cards
17:35 Fixer Calinou: tbh those CC-NC suck so much, so much projects poisoned and can't be included in debian and other classical distros
17:35 Calinou yep
17:35 Calinou I wish -NC never existed, but unfortunately it's going to stick with us
17:35 Fixer or look at gzdoom
17:36 Fixer it has shittons of licence it can't be accepted into debian :/
17:37 Fixer openttd sfx part also under shitty license but other is ok
17:37 Calinou GZDoom is GPLv3 now!
17:37 Fixer so if you really religious you can play without sound in openttd
17:37 Calinou since April 2017
17:37 Fixer Calinou: totally?
17:37 Calinou it took us 16 years to have a GPL ZDoom port :)
17:37 Calinou but we have it, at last
17:37 Calinou Zandronum is not GPL, though
17:37 Calinou (even the recently-released version 3)
17:37 Fixer Calinou: https://zdoom.org/wiki/license
17:38 Calinou that page is about the license of the no-longer-maintained ZDoom, not GZDoom
17:38 Calinou the top of the page mentions the licenses used in GZDoom
17:38 Calinou even Freedoom recommends GZDoom now: http://freedoom.github.io/download.html
17:40 Raven262 Also, KDiZD works nice on GZDoom.
17:40 Raven262 Hi Calinou.
17:40 Calinou hi Raven262
17:41 Calinou yeah, GZDoom supports pretty much all maps/mods
17:41 Calinou Blade of Agony runs (only) on GZDoom, too
17:41 Raven262 Oh
17:41 Raven262 It has issues on linux though
17:41 Raven262 I can't use dynamic lights in open areas in Blade of Agony
17:42 Raven262 Gets everything black.
17:42 Calinou hmm, no issues here
17:42 Calinou but I'm on Windows
17:42 Raven262 Windows runs nice
17:42 Calinou I use this for starting mods: https://github.com/Hypnotoad90/RocketLauncher2
17:42 Calinou works pretty well, you can save presets
17:42 jas_ mmmmmmmm gzdoom
17:42 Raven262 I use drag and drop to run stuff on windows.
17:43 Raven262 And command line on linux, as usual.
17:43 jas_ i want to get into client mods, but i want to manipulate them from the server.  when is that going to happen?  when channels are done?
17:44 jas_ no sense in looking at CSM for me because i can't see it from server
17:45 Fixer Calinou: no, wait
17:46 Fixer Calinou: As of April 17, 2017, GZDoom utilizes the following licenses for its code: GPL, LGPL, Dumb, Paul Hsieh, Zdoom, zlib
17:46 jas_ gzdoom is different
17:46 jas_ mmm gzdoom
17:46 Fixer it says GZDOOm
17:46 jas_ the pitch is beautiful.  normally it tears
17:46 jas_ not in gzdoom
17:46 jas_ i know, i don't like regular zdoom because i do +mlook
17:47 jas_ regular zdoom has that funny perspective shearing that happens when you look up.  plus, in gzdoom you can look all the way up and down
17:47 lisac jas_, only if you use GL renderer
17:47 jas_ zdoom doesn't have the same license, it's a different project last i knew
17:48 jas_ it's gzdoom, so yeah, that's implied
17:48 lisac aye but some people use GZdoom with software
17:48 jas_ oh
17:48 lisac for newer features
17:48 jas_ well i stand corrected
17:48 jas_ haven't played it since.... minetest
17:48 jas_ haha!
17:48 lisac I actually know a guy that can't run Zandronum with GL because his GPU is too weak.
17:49 Raven262 lol
17:49 lisac He's playing Zand in software
17:49 lisac encounters all sorts of bugs.
17:49 Raven262 Thats why he saw endlessly tall ladders on my map.
17:51 jas_ http://battleofthebits.org/arena/Battle/1592/Doom/
17:53 Fixer Calinou: ok, looks like it is really GPL3 for now
17:57 paramat wow i'm glad someone mentioned doom or quake, i was worrying the channel was getting offtopic :]
17:58 Fixer you are welcome
18:01 Calinou lisac, jas_: GZDoom has a software renderer now (it merged the one from QZDoom)
18:01 Calinou by default it's 8-bit and doesn't support freelook without shearing
18:01 Calinou but you can make it truecolor, polygon-based (supports freelook without shearing), or both :)
18:01 Calinou also, you can replicate Y-shearing in OpenGL, DarkPlaces can do this at least
18:01 Calinou (GZDoom can't, though)
18:02 paramat i'm wondering if cal can go a day without talking about doom or quake on a minetest channel =)
18:02 paramat anyway, that's enough, see channel rules
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18:13 IhrFussel A shame that meta node def PR won't get merged before 0.5.0
18:14 IhrFussel But I think that's something that could be added in 0.5.1 or does it break anything?
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18:28 Fixer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU4eduqLQwg (18+, alarm to headphone users, one of duke nukem horror maps that I finished)
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18:50 Raven262 Fixer, What is going on with the sound in some areas of the map?
18:51 Fixer Raven262: ACID
18:51 Raven262 I though so.
18:51 Raven262 *t
18:51 Raven262 Not as scary as i though it would be though.
18:51 Fixer damn, i need to play duke nukem again, bestest game, full of fun
18:51 Fixer and action
18:53 Raven262 It does have some fun stuff that doom hasn't got, doom doesn't teleport you around all the time.
18:53 Fixer i mean look at this for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2YM8Wfnolo it is action movie, literally
18:54 Fixer minetest just simply can't do that
18:55 Raven262 You can use that pistol as a sniper rifle. That low spread is insane.
18:57 Fixer this one is even better https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGkroXu8KdA
18:59 rubenwardy http://dropbox.design
19:00 rubenwardy in other unrelated news: https://i.rubenwardy.com/jMNa4AsZmZ.png
19:02 Shara What a horrible site.
19:03 Fixer rubenwardy: dropbox sucks officially
19:03 Fixer can confirm
19:03 Fixer it all started with removing public folders
19:04 Fixer then I knew it is the end
19:04 Fixer *is not dropbox user though anyway
19:04 Shara I didn't use it in a long time... but couple of days ago had email saying all my extra space was gone.
19:04 Shara Lookign at redesign... I think I don't care :)
19:04 Shara Looking*
19:12 Fixer every time i hear redesign, i'm expecting UI R.I.P.
19:13 rubenwardy some redesigns are good
19:13 rubenwardy Android's one turned out very nicely
19:13 Shara Some.
19:13 rubenwardy but this one is awful
19:13 rubenwardy the contrast is all wrong
19:13 rubenwardy and the colors look ugly
19:13 rubenwardy and my god the scroll hijacking
19:14 sfan5 tfw scrollbar does not work correctly
19:14 Fixer s o m e
19:14 rubenwardy I guess that designers are so useless that they just sit around all day, and come up with s**t like this
19:15 rubenwardy well, at least theirs
19:15 Fixer every year god damn redesign
19:15 rubenwardy sssh
19:15 Fixer or designers will be jobless
19:15 Fixer and i have to adapt to this bullshit apparently
19:16 rubenwardy that's technology generally, adapt or be left behind
19:17 Fixer rubenwardy: but not every ------- year
19:17 rubenwardy if you use enough companies, some of them will have a redesign every year
19:17 Fixer where are those s t a b l e interfaces from 90s? oh they are gone, so dinosaur
19:17 rubenwardy it's not like they're co-ordinated
19:18 rubenwardy surprising that people are positive https://twitter.com/search?q=dropbox
19:18 Fixer AV software is the worst
19:18 rubenwardy AV software is malware
19:18 rubenwardy jokes, just wanted to say that
19:19 Fixer i generally want designer to actually go work for North Korea redesigning that place, but please left as alone
19:19 Fixer designers*
19:19 Fixer all of them
19:19 Fixer change of UI in sake of change of UI is very cancerous
19:20 rubenwardy Android's redesign was a definite improvement
19:20 Fixer i'm more worried about PC
19:21 Fixer i have psychic trauma, after METRO/KDE4/GNOME3
19:21 Fixer and now UWP
19:22 Fixer on the other hand my heart rate is stable enough for mentioning systemd and pulseaudio
19:24 Fixer i wonder if Lennart actually received death threats
19:24 Fixer just curious
19:27 Fixer some people also say Ribbon, but I poker face on this
19:27 Fixer Calinou: i'm still hesitent to burn my AV in flames
20:07 Calinou <Fixer> i wonder if Lennart actually received death threats
20:08 Calinou he did, there's a Bitcoin fund for hiring an hitman to kill him
20:08 Calinou or, at least, Phoronix reported that
20:08 Calinou I think someone also modified Xbill to feature Lennart Poettering as the enemy, too
20:09 Fixer ah yes
20:24 rubenwardy !g Lennart Poettering
20:24 ShadowBot rubenwardy: Lennart Poettering - Wikipedia - Lennart Poettering (born October 15, 1980) is a German computer free software programmer known for his work on PulseAudio, a sound server, Avahi, an implementation of ... </l/?kh=-1&uddg=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikip​edia.org%2Fwiki%2FLennart_Poettering>, Lennart Poettering's Linus Torvalds rant | ZDNet - Open-source mailing lists and IRC conversations (7 more messages)
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20:57 nerzhul good news, i think i will finish the main network PR part today or tomorrow
20:57 nerzhul i'm working on the remaining UDP part, server properly handle it, i need to have client part
20:57 nerzhul and after that test with multiple clients, and fix some disconnection issues
20:57 Fixer https://i.ytimg.com/vi/YRC​zEqkCoiM/maxresdefault.jpg
20:58 Fixer i'm excited and horrified at the same time
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21:02 Fixer i hope benefits are substantial
21:03 nerzhul maintenance will be easy, code is modern and clear, and loading times are faster, i think media server should not be required anymore because we have pure tcp binary protocol, then it's faster than HTTP :)
21:07 Calinou HTTP file sendings can use HTTPS, though
21:08 Calinou but in practice, I've never seen any game do it :(
21:08 Calinou let alone HTTP/2
21:08 Calinou (curl supports HTTPS and HTTP/2, now)
21:08 nerzhul also mapblock loading should be a little bit faster on remote
21:08 nerzhul Calinou, right, but HTTPS and HTTP/2 are slower than MT binary protocol because no encryption is done :p
21:08 Calinou maybe
21:09 Calinou HTTP/2 is faster than plain HTTP, though
21:09 nerzhul yeah, but HTTP/2 is HTTPS/2 because HTTP/2 can only be encrypted :p
21:09 Calinou https://www.httpvshttps.com/
21:09 rubenwardy also, doesn't the remote media server offload work whilst clients are connecting?
21:09 Calinou nerzhul: the HTTP/2 spec doesn't mandate encryption, but all browsers require it
21:09 Calinou this might not be the case of your own implementation
21:09 rubenwardy given that it takes a while sometimes, that's a good thing
21:09 nerzhul rubenwardy, if you have 1000 clients at the same time ofc
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21:10 nerzhul Calinou, yeah, then by essence it's mandatory :p
21:11 nerzhul also ASIO can be nice for the future C++20 :D
21:11 nerzhul http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22​/wg21/docs/papers/2017/n4656.pdf
21:11 rubenwardy popular servers often have 5-10 players connecting at a time - usually phone clients which end up timing out
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21:12 nerzhul timeout is due to bad connection, using HTTP or mt binary protocol doesn't change anything to timeouts
21:12 rubenwardy that wasn't my point
21:13 rubenwardy "popular servers often have 5-10 players connecting at a time, even if most of them are phone clients which end up timing out anyway"
21:13 nerzhul current MT protocol doesn't like slow clients
21:13 nerzhul the new version doesn't care about that
21:13 rubenwardy however, chunk sending and entity sending would probably be better to optimise
21:13 Calinou you shouldn't timeout even if you're on a 4G connection
21:13 Calinou good protocols are tolerant enough to packet loss
21:13 nerzhul rubenwardy, gzip compression is good for slow for a mobile
21:14 nerzhul zstd can be a good compromise but packet will e a little bit more heavy
21:14 nerzhul but mobile will consume less memory and cpu
21:14 Fixer lz4?
21:14 Fixer nevermind
21:14 nerzhul or lz4, i don't have preference, except it's easier to implement lz4 in MT than zstd :p
21:15 nerzhul gzipcomprss function can be replaced sur lz4_comprss in mt code easily, whereas the zstd interfaces are a little bit more tricky to implement in current code
21:16 rubenwardy what about pied piper?
21:16 nerzhul what is that ?
21:16 rubenwardy http://www.piedpiper.com/
21:16 rubenwardy it's a revolutionary compression algorithm
21:16 nerzhul don't know
21:16 rubenwardy reached 5.4 on compression for 3d videos!
21:16 nerzhul and zstd and lz4 are revolutionar too
21:16 rubenwardy nerzhul, https://en.wikipedia.org/wik​i/Silicon_Valley_(TV_series)
21:17 nerzhul nice for 3d videos, but comprssion algorithm depend on what you comprss
21:17 nerzhul gzip is bad for videos but excellent with text
21:18 nerzhul i tend to be more confident with lz4 and zstd as FreeBSD and Solaris have them natively in their kernel for the ZFS storage system, and many users (including netflix filers) are using them on thousands of terabytes of data
21:18 nerzhul but it's another point to study and change in MT for 0.5
21:19 nerzhul it's our change to have modern comprssion over network
21:19 nerzhul and reduce CPU overhead on it
21:21 Fixer timed out, you talking about packet compression or mapblock compression?
21:24 Calinou LZ4 is good enough, many users host servers on not-so-powerful CPUs
21:24 Calinou (zstd doesn't perform well on small data, unless trained)
21:24 Fixer for mapblocks i like lz4
21:25 Fixer even if it takes slightly more space
21:25 Fixer zlib is horribly slow
21:27 Calinou zlib isn't horribly slow, but it's not as fast as the modern algorithms :P
21:27 Calinou LZMA is horribly slow, though
21:27 Calinou especially when compressing, but even decompressing is pretty slow by today's standards
21:27 nerzhul mapblock compression
21:34 Fixer lz4 seems like better alternative, it seems
22:00 nerzhul yes
22:00 nerzhul 29:59 and UDP part is fully working !
22:00 nerzhul 23:59*
22:00 nerzhul nice !
22:08 IhrFussel Does Lua in MT use the utf8 library and can properly cut any utf-8 strings?
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22:08 nerzhul the poc is now properly testable, i need to fix the shutdown issue
22:16 Fixer nerzhul: linux has lz4 (in general?) and zstd (for btrfs) supports too
22:16 nerzhul btrfs is shit, use zfs :p
22:20 Fixer btrfs had aura of problematic*
22:23 sfan5 oh are we discussing mapblock compression again
22:23 sofar zfs is out of tree, will never get merged
22:23 sfan5 let's just use brotli
22:23 nerzhul sofar, it depend on the distro :p
22:23 nerzhul it's in ubuntu, it's a dkms on many distros :p
22:24 sofar distro doesn't matter, it won't ever get merged by Linus
22:24 sofar get over it
22:24 nerzhul yeah, it's why i use FreeBSD
22:24 sofar eh, the 0.05%
22:24 nerzhul oh FreeBSD is not 0.05%
22:24 nerzhul it's everywhere in the world like linux
22:24 sofar no, it's the 0.05% of me that cares
22:25 nerzhul netapp, playstation, wii u, apple Mac OSX, apple iOS, CISCO, Juniper, EMC, Isilon
22:25 nerzhul :p
22:25 sofar oh, look, you're listing all platforms where you have zero control
22:25 nerzhul wrong
22:26 nerzhul netapp, juniper and isilon can be modified, not totally but many parts :p
22:26 sofar it's cool, NSA modifies them too
22:26 nerzhul yahoo and netflix uses freebsd
22:26 sfan5 Darwin doesn't really relate to FreeBSD
22:26 sfan5 so macOS and iOS don't count
22:26 nerzhul darwin is a microkernel
22:26 nerzhul it's freebsd over it
22:26 sfan5 what
22:27 sfan5 apple uses Darwin / xnu in their products, no *BSD in sight
22:27 nerzhul i remember the mac osx 10.8 to 10.9 firewall switch, strangely it's ipfw changed to packet filter, like freebsd :p
22:27 sfan5 yes the kernel was originally based on some bsd stuff
22:27 sfan5 does this make xnu the same as freebsd? definitely not
22:28 nerzhul it's a divergent FreeBSD
22:28 nerzhul but many kernel modules are common
22:28 nerzhul and all the free userland part comes from freebsd
22:28 nerzhul clang is pushed by apple & freebsd
22:29 nerzhul both switched to clang together :p
22:29 nerzhul macports is freebsd ports tree with mac patches :p
22:30 Jordach hell, i'm a fan of using the most objectively best software on offer
22:30 sfan5 ok i got it mixed up here, darwin came from nextstep/openstep while the kernel xnu is indeed based on mac + early freebsd versions
22:30 sofar minetest doesn't need more/different/other compression algorithms. use your free time to code some real features instead
22:31 sofar you can't make a better kernel scheduler either
22:31 nerzhul sofar, can you do it too ? i don't see many PR/commits from you
22:31 sofar I'm spending my time currently on a last-mile effort -> delivering actual Minetest Content
22:31 Calinou relevant: https://github.com/apple/darwin-xnu
22:31 Calinou this is apparently quite recent
22:31 Calinou (but I'm not sure)
22:32 sofar you can't code in labs and never make a product or product-like thing and say it's successful
22:32 sofar you have to do both
22:32 sfan5 Calinou: xnu has been open source since years, apparently they added iOS/ARM-related code recently
22:32 sofar I'll flip back once I'm happy with where the server is going
22:33 sofar besides, it wasn't a criticism of you, just of "yet another zlib vs (insert compression algo)" point raised by some
22:33 nerzhul sofar, just do some callgrind benchs, you will see server uses 30% cpu time for a singleuser
22:33 nerzhul it's not tiny
22:34 sofar not saying it isn't
22:34 nerzhul i go to bed, see you :)
22:34 Fixer Calinou: xnu-darwin is published for ages
22:36 Fixer https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/​commons/thumb/7/77/Unix_history-simple.​svg/1960px-Unix_history-simple.svg.png
22:38 Fixer remembering freebsd 4.8 on dialup hub iirc
22:38 Fixer fun times
22:38 Fixer with that big Zyxel
22:40 Fixer yeah, zfx will not be in kernel :(
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22:46 rubenwardy !g zfs
22:46 ShadowBot rubenwardy: ZFS - Wikipedia - ZFS is a combined file system and logical volume manager designed by Sun Microsystems. The features of ZFS include protection against data corruption ... </l/?kh=-1&uddg=https%3A%2F%2Fe​n.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FZFS>, ZFS - FreeNAS - Open Source Storage Operating System - Unprecedented Flexibility. ZFS helps you avoid most storage planning mistakes by pooling (6 more messages)
22:47 Fixer iirc Sun OS is finally RIP
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23:34 Fixer "If you had a Yahoo account in 2013, it was compromised." nice
23:36 Fixer "Code-execution flaws threaten users of routers, Linux, and other OSes"
23:36 Fixer what a great time to have network connected devices
23:37 Fixer everything can be hacked
23:51 sofar you don't need to have any device to be hacked -> experian
23:51 sofar equifax
23:51 sofar whatever the one was

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