Time Nick Message 00:00 Fixer i expect mapping kit to just work after crafting it and placing in inventory 00:00 Fixer use is good 00:00 Fixer you can enable or disable with it 00:00 Fixer but for usability it should enable minimap right away 00:01 Fixer mapping kit description should have some hints? 00:02 rubenwardy -> #-dev 00:02 rubenwardy (that's look in dev, not move there) 00:02 paramat no, searching through all players inventories can't be done too often, but i could reduce it in my edit, for now, to reduce complaints 00:03 Fixer sorry if i sounded somewhat rude, but it is _confusing_, it should _just work_ in _obvious way_ :( 00:03 paramat what you expect needs to be coded, you want to do it? 00:03 Fixer sure, will learn cpp in 50 years 00:03 rubenwardy C++ isn't that hard to learn 00:03 Fixer on my todo list 00:04 rubenwardy you just need to start programming 00:04 Fixer rubenwardy: procrastination is hard, and i don't like programming that much 00:04 Fixer i simply do not feel like it is for me 00:04 rubenwardy heh, fair I guess 00:04 Fixer some people like it 00:04 Fixer i'm not 00:04 Fixer i have to report bugs on other hand 00:04 Fixer or it will be fucked up 00:05 Fixer it is how OSS works, at least post bugreport, if you don't code 00:05 Fixer and if you code - write a patch 00:05 Fixer simple 00:06 Fixer just don't forget usability, or it will gives bad impression 00:06 Fixer and there will be more comments "about my brother can code this in 5 minutes, so s---" 00:06 paramat maybe i will remove the 'use' action to avoid all the whining 00:07 paramat and reduce the interval, for now, until we add inventory callbacks 00:07 Fixer craft mapkit -> it is inventory? - yes - enable minimap right away 00:07 Fixer no mapkit - disable minimap 00:07 paramat well duh yes, as if we didn't know that was ideal 00:07 Fixer tbh minimap is suboptimal, i'm not sure if thats RBA fault, but fps penalty is huge on my hardware (about 30%) 00:07 paramat yeah 00:08 Fixer or even 40% 00:08 Fixer it is very visible 00:08 Fixer and affects gameplay 00:08 Fixer I don't play with, only during some very needed times 00:09 Fixer with minimap 00:09 paramat i think it was optimised recently? but still bad 00:09 Fixer it was, but fps hit is ridiculous 00:09 Fixer now see it from player perspective 00:09 Fixer 2017 00:09 paramat unless it is disabled completely in settings it has an effect whether visible or not 00:10 Fixer oh, there are no tools in hands @ oh cool minimap @ hours of googling how to turn on damn thing @ oh half of fps is gone 00:11 Fixer there very little interest in mtg, only few people working on it, with relatively closed development, this only slow downs it 00:11 Fixer its development* 00:12 Fixer you want dev team to be small, but with OSS that ends up with everyone just AFK and it is dead 00:12 Fixer some cinic may say MTG is dead since like 2012 00:12 Fixer but CARTS in 2016 00:12 Fixer so revolutionary 00:12 Fixer exits into minecraft right away* 00:13 Fixer * probable scenario 00:13 paramat it's not quiet because we want it to be, don't complain about lack of dev time. i have MTG stuff coming for 0.5 00:13 rubenwardy the problem is that MTG is trying to be targeted at everyone, which meant that it is kept very bland and so doesn't fit anyone 00:14 Fixer mtg is incomplete 00:14 paramat stop measuring us to MC standards, we are not mojang 00:15 Fixer wait a second 00:15 paramat stop being so negative 00:15 Fixer iirc mc developer was alone when he developed most of it, during alpha/beta etc 00:16 Fixer and beta was light years ahead of current mtg, done by one person 00:16 Fixer and mtg is 6 years old roughly 00:17 Fixer ok, by very small team 00:17 Fixer he worked alone before sept 2010 roughly 00:19 Fixer since mc beta they had few people 00:19 Fixer to work on it 00:19 Fixer i will read more on mc history 00:21 Fixer too bad very few players and developers participates in this 00:21 Fixer very little input = chaotic output 00:23 Megaf Fixer, they dont even take the input of a single player 00:23 Megaf Imagine if they had a lot of input 00:24 rubenwardy no one gives us any input, except "MTG isn't complete" and "add mobs" 00:25 Shara Difficult to give input when desired direction isn't known 00:26 rubenwardy that is the main problem, MTG is targeted at everyone and so no-one 00:26 Megaf that ^ 00:26 Shara If I knew a certan type of thing was wanted, I could possibly try and help more 00:27 rubenwardy and there is resistance against MTG becoming a game 00:27 Shara At least a couple of devs seemed interested in my handholds mod, but nothing came of it. 00:27 rubenwardy did you make it into a PR? 00:28 Shara And I'd imagine there are plenty of mods like that that a couple of devs have been interested in, but were never more seriously considered 00:28 Megaf Shara, link to mod please 00:28 Shara https://github.com/Ezhh/handholds 00:28 Shara I'm not even 100% sure it would be right to add myself. 00:29 Shara But to me at least, it would be nice if the player gained tools that let them do more. 00:30 Shara So if not this, similar things perhaps. 00:33 Shara But again, it depends if you actually want MTG to include player progression beyond upgrading the same set of tools from one metal to another 00:34 Shara (many of which are skippable at that) 00:38 Shara And no, didn't make a PR, mostly because I'm still unsure myself if it would be right. 00:48 Megaf Im not sure handholds is something to be added to the default game 00:48 Megaf I think it doesnt fit 00:48 * Shara shurgs 00:48 Shara Then work out what does 00:48 Megaf its a great adition to servers, its very nice to have it as a mod anyone can add 00:48 Megaf I just dont think it fits for a default game 00:49 Megaf beside, most hill and moutains have at least one layer of dirt and sand 00:49 Megaf how do you manage them? 00:49 Shara It's not meant to remove all difficulty 00:49 Megaf Shara, dont get me wrong please, Im really impressed by the mod 00:50 Megaf its fantastic really 00:50 Megaf its just too much for default, IMHO 00:50 Megaf because we dont have any tool like it 00:50 Shara Megaf: I really don't mind if you think it fits or not. 00:50 Shara Please don't feel like you have to compliment the mod to avoid hurting my feelings :P 00:51 Shara It was, I think Stu, who suggested it, and a couple of the devs talked about it. 00:51 Megaf heh, I know 00:51 Shara But the problem is, if you say "this doesn't fit because there's nothing like it", then MTG will never have anything thats different from what it has 00:52 Megaf we got to a loop 00:52 Shara So it will never be a "game" and the complaints about how boring it is just carry on 00:52 Megaf Shara, well, Im working on something here, will show you when its ready 00:55 Shara It's up to the devs anyway, not us 01:33 * Shara wonders what Megaf is working on 01:34 Shara Hi tumeninodes 01:35 tumeninodes Hi Shara 01:36 tumeninodes I've been trying out an older mod https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9937&hilit=nnt anyone remember this one? 01:36 Shara Hmm, never even heard of it before :) 01:37 tumeninodes there are like 4 or 5 versions ha 01:37 tumeninodes currently, this one does not play nice with the falling node code of built_in 01:38 tumeninodes game crashes if you get a large drop of sand or gravel (in creative anyway)... working on it 01:38 Shara Mods not playing nice... had my share of that today :) 01:39 Shara Formspecs and detached inventories.. no fun. 01:39 tumeninodes hahaha... poor Shara 01:39 tumeninodes Formspecs get such a bad rap 01:39 Shara Horrible horrible things 01:40 Shara Cant resize height of buttons! 01:40 tumeninodes I assume now when someone says "Formspecs" you twitch? 01:40 Shara Pretty much 01:40 Shara Please don't spam it! 01:40 tumeninodes PFSD 01:41 Shara Heh 01:46 Megaf meh, I was expecting an error in the thing Im working on but it went perfectly first try 01:46 Megaf oh well... 01:46 tumeninodes Megaf... it's a trap, be careful :P 01:48 Shara Megaf: what is the thing? 01:48 Shara You can have my inventory errors for me, if you want errors? 01:49 Megaf Shara, almost ready 01:49 Shara But I'm about to sleep :P 01:51 Megaf aha! hot an error! 01:52 Megaf Shara, almost 01:52 Megaf 30 seconds 01:52 Megaf Shara, there http://git.megaf.info/Megaf/game_data/releases 01:52 Megaf Shara, extract to games... 01:53 Megaf basically the idea is wipe the idea of subgame 01:53 Megaf and have a game called Minetest 01:53 Shara Hmmm 01:53 Megaf with useful mods by default 01:53 Megaf so you dont game minetest_game inside Minetest 01:53 Shara But again, you need to decide which are useful 01:53 Shara And need some kind of mod store type feature 01:53 Megaf you have Minetest and inside a data folder, where the game files are 01:53 Shara Or... I don't know really 01:54 Megaf and I made a decision of the mods we need for a proper and complete game 01:54 Megaf all there 01:55 Megaf theres a little bug there tho, will fix tomorrow 01:56 Megaf bascailly the look and fill is Minetest Vanilla 01:56 Megaf but it has a crafting guide 01:56 Megaf and some nice commands, like /sit and /lay 01:57 Megaf and mobs 01:57 Megaf Still have to find a nice village mod to add 01:57 Shara you have two inventory mods :P 01:57 Shara Well stay away from mg_villages. One server I help on has been testing it out and.. chaos 01:59 Megaf this is how game_data is made and born http://git.megaf.info/Megaf/Minetest_Next_Maker 01:59 Megaf quick and dirty hack 01:59 Shara Hmm, anyway, sleep needed. 02:00 Shara Good night, Megaf the Tiger 02:00 Megaf night 02:01 ThomasMonroe sounds like something thats been missing from Minetest 02:05 Megaf well, no longer, I just made the draft for the solution 02:05 Megaf and keep in mind, we dont remove anything from the current idea 02:06 Megaf keep flexible, keep the subgames thing and mod store 02:06 Megaf we just add game_data and ship/bundle it with Minetest 02:06 Megaf instead of the minimal thing 02:06 Megaf and we call game_data simply Minetest 02:16 Megaf we still have to sort the singleplayer thing 02:24 Megaf latest version of Minetest by Megaf http://git.megaf.info/attachments/35536f59-431c-4f4f-8ff1-62459fb8c466 02:24 Megaf extract in games 02:25 Megaf It's backwards compatible with minetest_game 02:25 Megaf http://git.megaf.info/Megaf/game_data/releases 02:26 Megaf theres still one typo, oh well 03:03 ThomasMonroe gnight all 07:48 Krock 🍰 Happy 4th birthday, forum account 🎉 07:48 nerzhul Krock, happy birthday 3 october 2013 :D 07:48 Krock hello nerzhul :) 07:49 nerzhul hello Krock , how are you ? 07:49 Krock daily being-tired-in-the-morning-but-awake-feeling 07:49 nerzhul i'm currently working on unreliable part for the network rework, it's not complete yet, then unreliable packet are not received :) 07:49 nerzhul lol :) 07:49 Krock call me when I should test it :) 07:50 nerzhul you can test it now if you want, just server will not handle movement packets and client will not handle AOMsg flagged as unreliable :p 07:51 Krock the more testing results, the better, as an additional dependency must bring some benefits 07:51 nerzhul exact 07:51 Krock is the double free error solved yet? otherwise I can't connect to your server 07:51 nerzhul i fixed some shutdown part, but i don't get time to fix the server force cleint disconnect 07:51 nerzhul it's fixed it seems 07:51 Krock ok 07:52 nerzhul i have a crash at server shutdown to fix which happens on minetestserver binary, and sometimes on client 07:52 nerzhul you should update your source tree to ensure it works properly 07:52 nerzhul now the client send periodical UDP ping to server like old protocol to permit server to send unreliable packets, but it's not totally working (disabled atm) 07:53 nerzhul the ping is handled, server session records UDP endpoint but server is currently unable to answer to the endpoint, i think the udp::socket object is not the right object, because not linked with later setted udp endpoint 07:56 nerzhul the code is stable except the shutdown of server, client and the socket disconnection from one of the endpoints 07:56 Krock heh, client gets disconnected when trying to join your server 07:56 nerzhul oh you crash my server 07:57 Krock sorry :3 07:57 nerzhul no problem, i didn't tested my today work on my remote server atm 07:57 nerzhul i launched it with gdb can you retry ? 07:57 nerzhul i need the trace :) 07:57 Krock got it? 07:57 nerzhul yeah 07:58 nerzhul error when creating udp::socket 08:12 nerzhul Krock, can you retry please ? 08:13 nerzhul (i cannot i'm at work) 10:14 IhrFussel Why are you guys saying the mini map reduces FPS by 30-40% I see nothing like that and my PC is from 2009 ... no matter if I enable or disable the map I get maybe -3 FPS 10:15 sfan5 depends on the hardware most likely 10:16 IhrFussel Maybe it also depends on the ridiculous high view range some of you use (150+) 10:17 IhrFussel I'm happy with 50, I don't need to see what's far away 10:20 ThomasMonroe actually no, it does reduce FPS i run on avg 30 FPS, but when i have the mini-map on it goes down to about 15 or less 10:20 ThomasMonroe granted i am on a 10 or more year old computer 10:31 IhrFussel ThomasMonroe, I see almost zero difference between mini map on/off and I don't believe it's because my PC is "new" it is from 2009 "Pentium(R) Dual-Core CPU E5200 @ 2.50GHz" 10:32 IhrFussel What's your viewing range? Does reducing it improve mini map performance? 10:34 Fixer IhrFussel: what is your fps? 10:34 ThomasMonroe my veiwing range is typically less than 30 10:35 IhrFussel Fixer, I'm standing inside a built city so FPS drop a bit but with and without map 38 FPS 10:36 IhrFussel If I look up to the sky it's constant 60 10:36 Amaz IhrFussel: Are you enabling/disabling the minimap in .conf, or just hiding it with f9? 10:37 Fixer IhrFussel: try walking 10:37 Fixer minimap gives huge fps hit when you walk 10:37 Fixer not just standing 10:37 ThomasMonroe IhRFussel, my computer is an old CF-29 single core with 1.5GB RAM 10:38 Calinou hi 10:39 Calinou a nice writeup on image compression/optimization (targeted at the Web, but relevant for other fields too): https://images.guide/ 10:39 IhrFussel I disabled the map in advanced settings...the average FPS go from 38 to 43 but that's not 30% 10:40 IhrFussel Maybe you guys have other software running in the background?`I have only hexchat and minetest opened right now 10:41 rubenwardy I don't get much of a hit from minimap 10:41 rubenwardy but then I'm at 60 most of the time, accept in a city 10:43 IhrFussel Does it really differ that much between CPUs? I mean it can't be the GPU as I'm using the on-board one 10:43 Calinou on my server, I get 132 FPS vs 139 FPS (minimap on/off) in a "busy" area 10:43 Calinou in a less busy area, 164 FPS vs 174 FPS 10:44 IhrFussel Calinou, yea that sounds about the right drop but somebody mentioned 30-40% drop 10:44 Calinou the "easier" the area is to render for the CPU/GPU, the more FPS you'll lose with the minimap enabled 10:44 rubenwardy but but, eyes don't see faster than 132 FPS 10:44 rubenwardy you don't need 139 FPS 10:44 Calinou true, it's very good to have 132 FPS for a Minecraft-style game already 10:51 IhrFussel Fixer, to answer your question: Nope the FPS when I walk tend to jump a lot but never below 35 FPS (when standing 38) 10:52 IhrFussel Like I said maybe it depends on view range too as I don't need 100+ 10:52 Fixer maybe that huge hit has the answer = ATI 10:54 Calinou ATI is no longer a thing since 2006 :P 10:56 Calinou I don't know how people play with short view ranges, I really dislike < 150 myself 10:56 Calinou and I play with 250 on my desktop 10:56 Calinou and (IIRC) 150 on my laptop 10:56 Calinou I mean, Minecraft defaults to 256 10:59 IhrFussel Calinou, Priorities...since my PC is from 2009 I'd rather have more fluent FPS vs large range and stutter 11:00 IhrFussel I mean it is still playable at 100 or 150 for me but I don't see the importance in it...you can't interact with the world 150 nodes away anyway 11:02 Shara Fussel, I don't know how I could ever enjoy playing at 50... you see so little 11:03 IhrFussel On my older PC (Celeron) I played @ 20 cause everything else dropped the FPS below 15 11:03 Shara I usually have range at somewhere between 180 to 250 ish 11:03 Shara I adjust it pretty often, but don't usually go under that unless I'm in a seriously built up area 11:03 IhrFussel I don't need to *see* so far as long as I can just walk in a direction and everything loads sooner or later 11:03 Shara Yea, but I like to see what's been built 11:04 Shara 50 wouldn't even let me look at how most of my own buildings appear from outside 11:04 IhrFussel Well there is still the R key which I use regularly for big projects to look at them 11:06 IhrFussel If you had my PC you'd probably also reduce the view range... If I have the choice between 200 view range and 30+ FPS I'd rather choose the FPS 11:08 Shara Yea, I understand that 11:08 Shara Just it would reduce how much I enjoy the game by a pretty huge amount 11:08 Shara I can image being just about okay with 100 if needed 11:10 IhrFussel Well I guess I just *accepted* the fact that my PC (even this newer one) isn't the best and I need to compromize some things for my enjoyment xP 11:32 Fixer Calinou: you have high end PC, go to smth like Hometown spawn and you now have 30 fps 11:32 Fixer and you need i7 to handle that crap 11:55 lisac greetings! 13:10 IhrFussel If I place a HUD where the mini map is I'm guessing the mini map will hide the HUD 14:29 IhrFussel Do any of you if the MT license (LGPL 2.1+) permits to use non-commercial music on the server? 14:29 IhrFussel of you know* 14:32 Krock well, it's not directly content of Minetest itself.. 14:32 Krock a lawyer could give you a good answer for this - which I'm not 14:33 Krock NC-licensed textures also have been used in the past, so *shrig* 14:33 Krock \**shrug* 14:37 IhrFussel I'm asking in ##law ... they say if I don't charge for any services it should count as non-commercial 14:37 IhrFussel Or if I don't make any kind of profit with it (ads, donations etc) 14:38 Shara Makes yu wonder a bit about where the apps that do make profit come in... 14:38 Shara you* 14:40 IhrFussel Well in that case the app developers make the profit... I still don't earn any money with my server 14:40 jas_ i'm thinking the lgpl doesn't care what music you play on your server 14:41 Shara FUssel, of course. Just feels messy. :) 14:41 IhrFussel jas_, But there's lots of free music that you cannot use commercially like www.jamendo.com 14:42 jas_ is your server a commercial enterprise? does the gpl have anything to do with this? 14:43 IhrFussel Well the music will be integrated into the MT engine so I thought the MT license likely applies 14:43 jas_ if you're modifying lgpl software, that is different 14:43 jas_ you must redistribute if asked, and allow changes. you cannot afford those privs if you're using NC content 14:48 jas_ for a good example of separation of gpl and nc assets, see doom, quake, etc 14:57 IhrFussel Well the "lawyers" told me that if the server doesn't intend to make any profit from the music I'm good to go...I also explained to them the problem with ad-infested/paywalls implemented clone apps and they said since I cannot control those clients it's probably just their problem if the client of them plays non-commercial music 14:58 jas_ ianal 14:58 jas_ https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/6485/files#diff-95e351a3805a1dafa85bf20b81d086e6R256 14:58 jas_ I don't get this, am I supoosed to enter a new option on cmake? i did install libasio-dev 14:58 jas_ 1.10.8 on deb9 14:59 jas_ like i said, i doubt the gpl cares about the music you play on your server; even if there are others connecting to it with violated software 14:59 jas_ *gasp* 15:00 IhrFussel I think the LGPL does allow commercial use but even if it does my server doesn't use that right 15:01 IhrFussel Or priv* 15:01 jas_ i know, and i specifically didn't want to mention that about the lgpl. regardless, at the end of the day, the question of your musical preferences probably doesn't matter on iota 15:03 IhrFussel I mean the law wouldn't make sense to me if the server hoster was reposnsible for external violations they have no control over 15:03 jas_ right, no it's a great question but 15:03 jas_ i mean, technically you should just use gpl everything 15:03 jas_ but that's not practicle 15:04 jas_ practical 15:04 jas_ haha 15:05 jas_ the question of streamed software is another aspect, i'm even less familiar with 15:05 jas_ which would of course include its assets, and the (l)gpl isn't made for binary data (music) 15:07 jas_ you could use it, but really it is all about intentions. what do you intend to do? 15:08 IhrFussel I was thinking about adding some music snippets to certain nodes 15:10 jas_ easily fair use, i'd say. 15:12 jas_ of course, when redistributing your server's sub-game, for example, you would simply omit those from the package 15:12 jas_ but i don't know if you do that, or keep your server local, so to speak 15:12 jas_ (i don't even want to look at mine, right now, after this convo;) 15:14 IhrFussel Well Krock already mentioned that there have been files in the past that were labeled as NC but still used by mods even though the modders couldn't even know if the servers that run the mod are all NC 15:14 jas_ minetest is a special beast. since mtg is lgpl, it can get away with a bit more. but if you use any gpl mods in your dist, or whatever, it would change things. 15:15 jas_ still anything NC in mt should probably rm asap 15:15 jas_ lol *heads out for a respiratory treatment* 15:24 sfan5 (haven't followed the discussion) why should NC licensed content be removed from mt/mtg? 15:26 IhrFussel sfan5, probably because we cannot guarantee that the server hosters will provide their service for free 15:27 sfan5 so it's to remove burden of checking licensing from server operators 15:28 IhrFussel Well and possibly app devs that included ads/paywalls into their clients 15:28 IhrFussel Although I wouldn't be against them getting in trouble 15:29 sfan5 if you're developing an app you need to worry about licensing anyway 15:29 sfan5 but making sure server admins don't need to do that sounds reasonable 15:31 IhrFussel sfan5, yes but if an ad-infested client downloads NC media from a server (whether NC or not) it's a license violation correct? 15:31 sfan5 it's not 15:32 sfan5 hmm maybe 15:32 sfan5 but it's definitely not your worry as *you* are not making money on it 15:32 IhrFussel I mean the client that uses the files is commercial by definition 15:33 sfan5 indeed 15:33 sfan5 might actaully be a license violation, but the person violating the license in that case is the app developer not you 15:33 IhrFussel Yes but the app devs couldn't know that their users are downloading a NC file from a server...so it's kinda *not fair* to them 15:34 sfan5 yea 15:35 IhrFussel But I'm against ads/paywalls in OSS generally ... paywalls are even worse cause they block users from using the features the server permit 15:37 IhrFussel You said you want to try to pull the mobile players to the official client... which will require certain design changes in the Android app first and the one person who offered help likely cannot work on it before 2018 15:38 IhrFussel But I feel like the app NEEDS those improvements before 0.5.0 releases 15:40 IhrFussel I had quite a few players that seriously said "sorry but i can't use this app, it's too bad i'll switch back to the one with the ads" 15:41 rubenwardy there isn't and NC content in mt/mtg though? 15:43 jas_ i'm bantering, and i like gpl and cc-by-at 15:43 jas_ that's why 15:43 jas_ HAHA 15:43 jas_ oops, by-sa 15:44 IhrFussel Krock didn't mention MTG he only said NC textures were used in the past 15:45 jas_ now it's the streaming software stuff i wonder about, because it's kinda like publishing, but if no one asks for the code -- it's moot i think 15:46 IhrFussel But still if modders use NC stuff they could cause trouble for server owners who use it commercially 15:46 jas_ or anyone, but that's their problemo 15:46 jas_ so what music you like? ac/dc? 15:46 * jas_ just got an idea 15:47 rubenwardy server owners shouldn't use mods with NC stuff 15:47 rubenwardy if they 15:47 rubenwardy if they're going to use it commercially, that is 15:47 rubenwardy not heard of any servers doing anything commercially, though 15:48 Krock "Buy 50 diamond blocks now for only $6.66!" 15:48 rubenwardy there are minecraft-based companies that make millions of pounds a year from MC IAPs 15:49 IhrFussel I also don't know of any commercial public server... but a player once asked me if I could give him the WE priv for money xP 15:49 Shara Actually I know of at least one server that had "buy items for real money" type offers. 15:49 rubenwardy also competitions etc 15:49 Shara And back when I saw it I pointed out to them they were quite likely breaking soem licenses for textures they used 15:50 jas_ bingo 15:50 Shara Since they were using some Minecraft texture packs that had non-commericial listed under conditions of use when I checked 15:51 IhrFussel But isn't it *very* difficult for a server owner to find out whether or not the files are NC? I mean sometimes modders give files a certain license but it's not the correct one 15:51 Shara Fussel, if you want to have a commercial server, you should be making sure you check things you use have a license 15:51 IhrFussel Modders could lie I mean...they could make a NC texture "commercial" 15:52 Shara I'm not a lawyer, but I guess there comes a point where it would be the modder who is in the wrong not you... so long as you change it if it's pointed out to you 15:54 jas_ it's who's distributing what, under what costs. so if a third party makes the error, and he redistributes it, he is in error, too. 15:54 jas_ if he makes money and there's a nc license anywhere that's kinda.. against the license, i'd think 15:54 jas_ unless 15:54 jas_ you contact the author, get his permission 16:23 jas_ hi sofar 16:23 jas_ https://github.com/minetest-mods/warps/pull/2#issuecomment-333895746 16:23 sofar shoot down a github PR, you get pinged in IRC 16:24 sofar :P 16:24 sofar oh lol, I never listened to it 16:24 jas_ apologies 16:24 sofar somehow ogg files don't play in my browser at work 16:24 jas_ anyway yea 16:24 jas_ it's your license, so, you tell me. 16:25 sofar no worries, what did you do with the sound effect then? 16:25 jas_ oh jesus let me take a listen i don't remember 16:25 * jas_ stops the nirvana 16:25 sofar lol 16:25 jas_ fading 16:25 jas_ echo 16:25 jas_ lemme listen to the old one 16:25 sofar I've been slacking on minetest-mods, just serviced a bunch of PRs to make up for it 16:26 sofar all my time going into "Inside the box" 16:26 jas_ eq 16:27 jas_ not much. i keep meaning to check it out, i think it looks cool 16:27 jas_ i upvoted your stuff, man haha 16:29 sofar it's been fun, in a way because slowly it's creating a bit of a content generation factory 16:29 sofar the more people play, the more they'll be enticed to build 16:30 sofar and so there will be more to play ... ! 16:30 jas_ at first, i thought and wondered about itb.exe, but i wonder now how much it's tied to being a centralized online server 16:30 jas_ like i thought it could be a singleplayer puzzler 16:30 sofar itb.exe? wha? 16:30 jas_ whole different game than minetest, but i been watching the videos 16:30 sofar makes no sense 16:31 sofar the crux is that it's online so you can share creations 16:31 sofar without that, it's a dead-end game 16:31 jas_ at first i thought it would be a subgame, but totally unlike MTG just puzzles 16:31 jas_ so like a whole other game, which i thought was cool. this looks cool too 16:31 sofar the code is irrelevant, all the original parts are what people build with it 16:31 jas_ definitely interesting 16:32 sofar just try it, btw, it takes 2 minutes to do the first 2 puzzles and it remembers your progress 16:32 sofar with ~ 45 puzzles atm, you can come back later and do more 16:32 jas_ you have a connection from me yesterday, but i didn't play it 16:32 jas_ someone else did, they got scared sofar! 16:32 sofar I added a puzzle yesterday that most players need 30+ minutes for 16:32 jas_ hahha 16:33 jas_ i don't do puzzles 16:34 sofar well, after you finish the tutorial you can build them 16:34 sofar but, it's a server for puzzlers, one way or another 17:27 Calinou hi 17:28 Calinou (haven't followed the discussion) why should NC licensed content be removed from mt/mtg? 17:28 Calinou there's CC -NC stuff in minetest_game now? :( 17:28 Calinou that's a no-go for Debian/Fedora 17:28 Calinou (Debian will allow it, but really reluctantly and minetest-data will go to `non-free`, and minetest to `contrib`) 17:28 Calinou (and Fedora will just nuke it entirely) 17:29 rubenwardy there isn't 17:29 Calinou I hope there won't be in the future, that'd be a terrible setback (obligatory RMS reference) 17:30 Fixer oh, i need to solve some puzzles 17:31 Fixer IhrFussel: i have other situation with minimap, i can have 90fps (capped) and when walking it looses 30-40 fps 17:32 Fixer Calinou: "ATI is no longer a thing since 2006 :P" drivers still have ati*.dll, so it kinda lives 17:32 Fixer everyone knows it is ATI, you can't hide it, its bugs and traditions 17:32 IhrFussel Fixer, did you try with view range 50 for testing? 17:33 Fixer all glory to RBA for fixing that innocent z-buffer bug that was fixed about 5 years later in minetest, ATI users love 17:34 Fixer one line fix that makes huuge difference for 30% of PC userbase on ATI cards 17:35 Fixer Calinou: tbh those CC-NC suck so much, so much projects poisoned and can't be included in debian and other classical distros 17:35 Calinou yep 17:35 Calinou I wish -NC never existed, but unfortunately it's going to stick with us 17:35 Fixer or look at gzdoom 17:36 Fixer it has shittons of licence it can't be accepted into debian :/ 17:37 Fixer openttd sfx part also under shitty license but other is ok 17:37 Calinou GZDoom is GPLv3 now! 17:37 Fixer so if you really religious you can play without sound in openttd 17:37 Calinou since April 2017 17:37 Fixer Calinou: totally? 17:37 Calinou it took us 16 years to have a GPL ZDoom port :) 17:37 Calinou but we have it, at last 17:37 Calinou Zandronum is not GPL, though 17:37 Calinou (even the recently-released version 3) 17:37 Fixer Calinou: https://zdoom.org/wiki/license 17:38 Calinou that page is about the license of the no-longer-maintained ZDoom, not GZDoom 17:38 Calinou the top of the page mentions the licenses used in GZDoom 17:38 Calinou even Freedoom recommends GZDoom now: http://freedoom.github.io/download.html 17:40 Raven262 Also, KDiZD works nice on GZDoom. 17:40 Raven262 Hi Calinou. 17:40 Calinou hi Raven262 17:41 Calinou yeah, GZDoom supports pretty much all maps/mods 17:41 Calinou Blade of Agony runs (only) on GZDoom, too 17:41 Raven262 Oh 17:41 Raven262 It has issues on linux though 17:41 Raven262 I can't use dynamic lights in open areas in Blade of Agony 17:42 Raven262 Gets everything black. 17:42 Calinou hmm, no issues here 17:42 Calinou but I'm on Windows 17:42 Raven262 Windows runs nice 17:42 Calinou I use this for starting mods: https://github.com/Hypnotoad90/RocketLauncher2 17:42 Calinou works pretty well, you can save presets 17:42 jas_ mmmmmmmm gzdoom 17:42 Raven262 I use drag and drop to run stuff on windows. 17:43 Raven262 And command line on linux, as usual. 17:43 jas_ i want to get into client mods, but i want to manipulate them from the server. when is that going to happen? when channels are done? 17:44 jas_ no sense in looking at CSM for me because i can't see it from server 17:45 Fixer Calinou: no, wait 17:46 Fixer Calinou: As of April 17, 2017, GZDoom utilizes the following licenses for its code: GPL, LGPL, Dumb, Paul Hsieh, Zdoom, zlib 17:46 jas_ gzdoom is different 17:46 jas_ mmm gzdoom 17:46 Fixer it says GZDOOm 17:46 jas_ the pitch is beautiful. normally it tears 17:46 jas_ not in gzdoom 17:46 jas_ i know, i don't like regular zdoom because i do +mlook 17:47 jas_ regular zdoom has that funny perspective shearing that happens when you look up. plus, in gzdoom you can look all the way up and down 17:47 lisac jas_, only if you use GL renderer 17:47 jas_ zdoom doesn't have the same license, it's a different project last i knew 17:48 jas_ it's gzdoom, so yeah, that's implied 17:48 lisac aye but some people use GZdoom with software 17:48 jas_ oh 17:48 lisac for newer features 17:48 jas_ well i stand corrected 17:48 jas_ haven't played it since.... minetest 17:48 jas_ haha! 17:48 lisac I actually know a guy that can't run Zandronum with GL because his GPU is too weak. 17:49 Raven262 lol 17:49 lisac He's playing Zand in software 17:49 lisac encounters all sorts of bugs. 17:49 Raven262 Thats why he saw endlessly tall ladders on my map. 17:51 jas_ http://battleofthebits.org/arena/Battle/1592/Doom/ 17:53 Fixer Calinou: ok, looks like it is really GPL3 for now 17:57 paramat wow i'm glad someone mentioned doom or quake, i was worrying the channel was getting offtopic :] 17:58 Fixer you are welcome 18:01 Calinou lisac, jas_: GZDoom has a software renderer now (it merged the one from QZDoom) 18:01 Calinou by default it's 8-bit and doesn't support freelook without shearing 18:01 Calinou but you can make it truecolor, polygon-based (supports freelook without shearing), or both :) 18:01 Calinou also, you can replicate Y-shearing in OpenGL, DarkPlaces can do this at least 18:01 Calinou (GZDoom can't, though) 18:02 paramat i'm wondering if cal can go a day without talking about doom or quake on a minetest channel =) 18:02 paramat anyway, that's enough, see channel rules 18:13 IhrFussel A shame that meta node def PR won't get merged before 0.5.0 18:14 IhrFussel But I think that's something that could be added in 0.5.1 or does it break anything? 18:28 Fixer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU4eduqLQwg (18+, alarm to headphone users, one of duke nukem horror maps that I finished) 18:50 Raven262 Fixer, What is going on with the sound in some areas of the map? 18:51 Fixer Raven262: ACID 18:51 Raven262 I though so. 18:51 Raven262 *t 18:51 Raven262 Not as scary as i though it would be though. 18:51 Fixer damn, i need to play duke nukem again, bestest game, full of fun 18:51 Fixer and action 18:53 Raven262 It does have some fun stuff that doom hasn't got, doom doesn't teleport you around all the time. 18:53 Fixer i mean look at this for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2YM8Wfnolo it is action movie, literally 18:54 Fixer minetest just simply can't do that 18:55 Raven262 You can use that pistol as a sniper rifle. That low spread is insane. 18:57 Fixer this one is even better https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGkroXu8KdA 18:59 rubenwardy http://dropbox.design 19:00 rubenwardy in other unrelated news: https://i.rubenwardy.com/jMNa4AsZmZ.png 19:02 Shara What a horrible site. 19:03 Fixer rubenwardy: dropbox sucks officially 19:03 Fixer can confirm 19:03 Fixer it all started with removing public folders 19:04 Fixer then I knew it is the end 19:04 Fixer *is not dropbox user though anyway 19:04 Shara I didn't use it in a long time... but couple of days ago had email saying all my extra space was gone. 19:04 Shara Lookign at redesign... I think I don't care :) 19:04 Shara Looking* 19:12 Fixer every time i hear redesign, i'm expecting UI R.I.P. 19:13 rubenwardy some redesigns are good 19:13 rubenwardy Android's one turned out very nicely 19:13 Shara Some. 19:13 rubenwardy but this one is awful 19:13 rubenwardy the contrast is all wrong 19:13 rubenwardy and the colors look ugly 19:13 rubenwardy and my god the scroll hijacking 19:14 sfan5 tfw scrollbar does not work correctly 19:14 Fixer s o m e 19:14 rubenwardy I guess that designers are so useless that they just sit around all day, and come up with s**t like this 19:15 rubenwardy well, at least theirs 19:15 Fixer every year god damn redesign 19:15 rubenwardy sssh 19:15 Fixer or designers will be jobless 19:15 Fixer and i have to adapt to this bullshit apparently 19:16 rubenwardy that's technology generally, adapt or be left behind 19:17 Fixer rubenwardy: but not every ------- year 19:17 rubenwardy if you use enough companies, some of them will have a redesign every year 19:17 Fixer where are those s t a b l e interfaces from 90s? oh they are gone, so dinosaur 19:17 rubenwardy it's not like they're co-ordinated 19:18 rubenwardy surprising that people are positive https://twitter.com/search?q=dropbox 19:18 Fixer AV software is the worst 19:18 rubenwardy AV software is malware 19:18 rubenwardy jokes, just wanted to say that 19:19 Fixer i generally want designer to actually go work for North Korea redesigning that place, but please left as alone 19:19 Fixer designers* 19:19 Fixer all of them 19:19 Fixer change of UI in sake of change of UI is very cancerous 19:20 rubenwardy Android's redesign was a definite improvement 19:20 Fixer i'm more worried about PC 19:21 Fixer i have psychic trauma, after METRO/KDE4/GNOME3 19:21 Fixer and now UWP 19:22 Fixer on the other hand my heart rate is stable enough for mentioning systemd and pulseaudio 19:24 Fixer i wonder if Lennart actually received death threats 19:24 Fixer just curious 19:27 Fixer some people also say Ribbon, but I poker face on this 19:27 Fixer Calinou: i'm still hesitent to burn my AV in flames 20:07 Calinou i wonder if Lennart actually received death threats 20:08 Calinou he did, there's a Bitcoin fund for hiring an hitman to kill him 20:08 Calinou or, at least, Phoronix reported that 20:08 Calinou I think someone also modified Xbill to feature Lennart Poettering as the enemy, too 20:09 Fixer ah yes 20:24 rubenwardy !g Lennart Poettering 20:24 ShadowBot rubenwardy: Lennart Poettering - Wikipedia - Lennart Poettering (born October 15, 1980) is a German computer free software programmer known for his work on PulseAudio, a sound server, Avahi, an implementation of ... , Lennart Poettering's Linus Torvalds rant | ZDNet - Open-source mailing lists and IRC conversations (7 more messages) 20:57 nerzhul good news, i think i will finish the main network PR part today or tomorrow 20:57 nerzhul i'm working on the remaining UDP part, server properly handle it, i need to have client part 20:57 nerzhul and after that test with multiple clients, and fix some disconnection issues 20:57 Fixer https://i.ytimg.com/vi/YRCzEqkCoiM/maxresdefault.jpg 20:58 Fixer i'm excited and horrified at the same time 21:02 Fixer i hope benefits are substantial 21:03 nerzhul maintenance will be easy, code is modern and clear, and loading times are faster, i think media server should not be required anymore because we have pure tcp binary protocol, then it's faster than HTTP :) 21:07 Calinou HTTP file sendings can use HTTPS, though 21:08 Calinou but in practice, I've never seen any game do it :( 21:08 Calinou let alone HTTP/2 21:08 Calinou (curl supports HTTPS and HTTP/2, now) 21:08 nerzhul also mapblock loading should be a little bit faster on remote 21:08 nerzhul Calinou, right, but HTTPS and HTTP/2 are slower than MT binary protocol because no encryption is done :p 21:08 Calinou maybe 21:09 Calinou HTTP/2 is faster than plain HTTP, though 21:09 nerzhul yeah, but HTTP/2 is HTTPS/2 because HTTP/2 can only be encrypted :p 21:09 Calinou https://www.httpvshttps.com/ 21:09 rubenwardy also, doesn't the remote media server offload work whilst clients are connecting? 21:09 Calinou nerzhul: the HTTP/2 spec doesn't mandate encryption, but all browsers require it 21:09 Calinou this might not be the case of your own implementation 21:09 rubenwardy given that it takes a while sometimes, that's a good thing 21:09 nerzhul rubenwardy, if you have 1000 clients at the same time ofc 21:10 nerzhul Calinou, yeah, then by essence it's mandatory :p 21:11 nerzhul also ASIO can be nice for the future C++20 :D 21:11 nerzhul http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2017/n4656.pdf 21:11 rubenwardy popular servers often have 5-10 players connecting at a time - usually phone clients which end up timing out 21:12 nerzhul timeout is due to bad connection, using HTTP or mt binary protocol doesn't change anything to timeouts 21:12 rubenwardy that wasn't my point 21:13 rubenwardy "popular servers often have 5-10 players connecting at a time, even if most of them are phone clients which end up timing out anyway" 21:13 nerzhul current MT protocol doesn't like slow clients 21:13 nerzhul the new version doesn't care about that 21:13 rubenwardy however, chunk sending and entity sending would probably be better to optimise 21:13 Calinou you shouldn't timeout even if you're on a 4G connection 21:13 Calinou good protocols are tolerant enough to packet loss 21:13 nerzhul rubenwardy, gzip compression is good for slow for a mobile 21:14 nerzhul zstd can be a good compromise but packet will e a little bit more heavy 21:14 nerzhul but mobile will consume less memory and cpu 21:14 Fixer lz4? 21:14 Fixer nevermind 21:14 nerzhul or lz4, i don't have preference, except it's easier to implement lz4 in MT than zstd :p 21:15 nerzhul gzipcomprss function can be replaced sur lz4_comprss in mt code easily, whereas the zstd interfaces are a little bit more tricky to implement in current code 21:16 rubenwardy what about pied piper? 21:16 nerzhul what is that ? 21:16 rubenwardy http://www.piedpiper.com/ 21:16 rubenwardy it's a revolutionary compression algorithm 21:16 nerzhul don't know 21:16 rubenwardy reached 5.4 on compression for 3d videos! 21:16 nerzhul and zstd and lz4 are revolutionar too 21:16 rubenwardy nerzhul, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Valley_(TV_series) 21:17 nerzhul nice for 3d videos, but comprssion algorithm depend on what you comprss 21:17 nerzhul gzip is bad for videos but excellent with text 21:18 nerzhul i tend to be more confident with lz4 and zstd as FreeBSD and Solaris have them natively in their kernel for the ZFS storage system, and many users (including netflix filers) are using them on thousands of terabytes of data 21:18 nerzhul but it's another point to study and change in MT for 0.5 21:19 nerzhul it's our change to have modern comprssion over network 21:19 nerzhul and reduce CPU overhead on it 21:21 Fixer timed out, you talking about packet compression or mapblock compression? 21:24 Calinou LZ4 is good enough, many users host servers on not-so-powerful CPUs 21:24 Calinou (zstd doesn't perform well on small data, unless trained) 21:24 Fixer for mapblocks i like lz4 21:25 Fixer even if it takes slightly more space 21:25 Fixer zlib is horribly slow 21:27 Calinou zlib isn't horribly slow, but it's not as fast as the modern algorithms :P 21:27 Calinou LZMA is horribly slow, though 21:27 Calinou especially when compressing, but even decompressing is pretty slow by today's standards 21:27 nerzhul mapblock compression 21:34 Fixer lz4 seems like better alternative, it seems 22:00 nerzhul yes 22:00 nerzhul 29:59 and UDP part is fully working ! 22:00 nerzhul 23:59* 22:00 nerzhul nice ! 22:08 IhrFussel Does Lua in MT use the utf8 library and can properly cut any utf-8 strings? 22:08 nerzhul the poc is now properly testable, i need to fix the shutdown issue 22:16 Fixer nerzhul: linux has lz4 (in general?) and zstd (for btrfs) supports too 22:16 nerzhul btrfs is shit, use zfs :p 22:20 Fixer btrfs had aura of problematic* 22:23 sfan5 oh are we discussing mapblock compression again 22:23 sofar zfs is out of tree, will never get merged 22:23 sfan5 let's just use brotli 22:23 nerzhul sofar, it depend on the distro :p 22:23 nerzhul it's in ubuntu, it's a dkms on many distros :p 22:24 sofar distro doesn't matter, it won't ever get merged by Linus 22:24 sofar get over it 22:24 nerzhul yeah, it's why i use FreeBSD 22:24 sofar eh, the 0.05% 22:24 nerzhul oh FreeBSD is not 0.05% 22:24 nerzhul it's everywhere in the world like linux 22:24 sofar no, it's the 0.05% of me that cares 22:25 nerzhul netapp, playstation, wii u, apple Mac OSX, apple iOS, CISCO, Juniper, EMC, Isilon 22:25 nerzhul :p 22:25 sofar oh, look, you're listing all platforms where you have zero control 22:25 nerzhul wrong 22:26 nerzhul netapp, juniper and isilon can be modified, not totally but many parts :p 22:26 sofar it's cool, NSA modifies them too 22:26 nerzhul yahoo and netflix uses freebsd 22:26 sfan5 Darwin doesn't really relate to FreeBSD 22:26 sfan5 so macOS and iOS don't count 22:26 nerzhul darwin is a microkernel 22:26 nerzhul it's freebsd over it 22:26 sfan5 what 22:27 sfan5 apple uses Darwin / xnu in their products, no *BSD in sight 22:27 nerzhul i remember the mac osx 10.8 to 10.9 firewall switch, strangely it's ipfw changed to packet filter, like freebsd :p 22:27 sfan5 yes the kernel was originally based on some bsd stuff 22:27 sfan5 does this make xnu the same as freebsd? definitely not 22:28 nerzhul it's a divergent FreeBSD 22:28 nerzhul but many kernel modules are common 22:28 nerzhul and all the free userland part comes from freebsd 22:28 nerzhul clang is pushed by apple & freebsd 22:29 nerzhul both switched to clang together :p 22:29 nerzhul macports is freebsd ports tree with mac patches :p 22:30 Jordach hell, i'm a fan of using the most objectively best software on offer 22:30 sfan5 ok i got it mixed up here, darwin came from nextstep/openstep while the kernel xnu is indeed based on mac + early freebsd versions 22:30 sofar minetest doesn't need more/different/other compression algorithms. use your free time to code some real features instead 22:31 sofar you can't make a better kernel scheduler either 22:31 nerzhul sofar, can you do it too ? i don't see many PR/commits from you 22:31 sofar I'm spending my time currently on a last-mile effort -> delivering actual Minetest Content 22:31 Calinou relevant: https://github.com/apple/darwin-xnu 22:31 Calinou this is apparently quite recent 22:31 Calinou (but I'm not sure) 22:32 sofar you can't code in labs and never make a product or product-like thing and say it's successful 22:32 sofar you have to do both 22:32 sfan5 Calinou: xnu has been open source since years, apparently they added iOS/ARM-related code recently 22:32 sofar I'll flip back once I'm happy with where the server is going 22:33 sofar besides, it wasn't a criticism of you, just of "yet another zlib vs (insert compression algo)" point raised by some 22:33 nerzhul sofar, just do some callgrind benchs, you will see server uses 30% cpu time for a singleuser 22:33 nerzhul it's not tiny 22:34 sofar not saying it isn't 22:34 nerzhul i go to bed, see you :) 22:34 Fixer Calinou: xnu-darwin is published for ages 22:36 Fixer https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Unix_history-simple.svg/1960px-Unix_history-simple.svg.png 22:38 Fixer remembering freebsd 4.8 on dialup hub iirc 22:38 Fixer fun times 22:38 Fixer with that big Zyxel 22:40 Fixer yeah, zfx will not be in kernel :( 22:46 rubenwardy !g zfs 22:46 ShadowBot rubenwardy: ZFS - Wikipedia - ZFS is a combined file system and logical volume manager designed by Sun Microsystems. The features of ZFS include protection against data corruption ... , ZFS - FreeNAS - Open Source Storage Operating System - Unprecedented Flexibility. ZFS helps you avoid most storage planning mistakes by pooling (6 more messages) 22:47 Fixer iirc Sun OS is finally RIP 23:34 Fixer "If you had a Yahoo account in 2013, it was compromised." nice 23:36 Fixer "Code-execution flaws threaten users of routers, Linux, and other OSes" 23:36 Fixer what a great time to have network connected devices 23:37 Fixer everything can be hacked 23:51 sofar you don't need to have any device to be hacked -> experian 23:51 sofar equifax 23:51 sofar whatever the one was