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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-08-12

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Time Nick Message
00:02 hmmmm damn
00:02 hmmmm mods still get run for a couple of MS after a crash
00:03 est wtf
00:03 hmmmm hehe i see why it gets cleared sorta
00:04 est lets hope its not "i see, but had to sign an NDA", like in one part of the bible lol
00:12 hmmmm http://fpaste.org/254129/38330143/
00:14 est ok
00:15 hmmmm it's because the fatal server arror as asynchronous
00:15 hmmmm trying to think of how this can possibly interact with other things to cause an error in error handling
00:16 hmmmm hopefully the debug namespace isn't getting overwritten or anything by an errant mod
00:16 est ?
00:17 est store it into a local variable
00:17 est file-local
00:17 est local debug = debug
00:17 hmmmm i mean before crashing
00:18 hmmmm besides, there's no way the lua state could get executed twice, there's scriptapi lock
00:24 est RealBadAngel, comments? #3036
00:24 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3036 -- Minimap needs to be customizeable by the server
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01:39 hmmmm why is that a blocker
01:39 hmmmm est, come on
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01:40 hmmmm let's not make this overcomplicated, yes?  I'll just add a flag to hud_set_*
01:43 VanessaE speaking of minimap...
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01:43 VanessaE https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.ph​p?f=3&t=156&sid=ec1b28676d72c48​c495920206bcae25a&p=186979#p186979
01:44 VanessaE take notice of the artifacts therein in inocudom's screenshot
01:44 est31 hmmmm, the I see following problems with adding flags to hud_set
01:44 est31 1. currently we explain which mode we have on switches
01:44 hmmmm it's not going to be flexible, yes i realize that
01:44 est31 of minimap modes
01:44 VanessaE er, this link might work better: https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?p=186979#p186979
01:45 hmmmm just have an enable/disable switch for now
01:45 est31 thats already there
01:45 hmmmm from the server though?
01:45 est31 just hack the texture
01:45 hmmmm then what's wrong?
01:45 est31 dunno if the client can override it with texture packs
01:45 hmmmm VanessaE:  heh
01:45 est31 but theoretically its possible
01:45 est31 it isnt proper.
01:46 est31 hud_set is neither
01:46 hmmmm VanessaE:  it looks from that screenshot like the normal map is fully generated but the minimap image texture is not
01:46 hmmmm est31:  what do you expect during feature freeze?
01:46 hmmmm this is supposed to be for minor fixes only
01:46 est31 hmmmm, agreed, but minimap is a major feature
01:46 hmmmm it's an unstable one
01:46 est31 unstable in which regard?
01:47 est31 there are some leaks with it, agreed, but we fixed most I guess
01:47 hmmmm things are going to be changing around it
01:47 hmmmm unstable in that sense
01:47 VanessaE hmmmm: might be.  I've never seen this artifact on my setup but then again I don't use shaders, much less normals.
01:47 hmmmm hmm
01:47 est31 hmmmm, you know all this stuff wouldnt be needed if we had clientside scripting
01:47 hmmmm VanessaE:  I'll have to look into it while i do the other minimap things
01:47 hmmmm est31, yes I realize that
01:47 est31 but we dont have it right now
01:47 hmmmm we have other things to do
01:47 VanessaE ok.  just thought I'd mention it.
01:48 est31 so lets not sit in a corner and not do anything, because the clientsid escripting
01:48 hmmmm client side scripting is top priority for new features
01:48 est31 didnt happen yet
01:49 est31 that person is using freeminer btw
01:49 est31 they should ask the support of their fork
01:51 est31 the issue is, that proper minimap flexibility from the server requires:
01:51 est31 1. ability to turn it off
01:51 est31 2. ability to make minimap a craft-able item
01:51 est31 that's what I think we should aim for
01:51 est31 I dont see how the general setup of it will change in future
01:52 est31 e.g. that we have radar mode with different zoom levels, and that we have surface mode with different zoom levels
01:52 est31 thats all what my suggestion requires
01:53 est31 Yes, its done in feature freeze, but we renamed pine trees in feature freeze too.
01:53 hmmmm that was something paramat was doing with minetest game
01:53 est31 and thats even something very low priority
01:53 hmmmm i dunno what he's doing :p
01:53 est31 no, he did a commit on the engine too
01:53 hmmmm right i saw
01:54 hmmmm anyway instead of talking i need to be coding right now
01:54 est31 good.
01:54 hmmmm sorry don't take it personally
01:54 est31 nono, I talk too much as well.
01:55 hmmmm yeah but you have a seemingly endless supply of time and energy to devote to minetest
01:55 hmmmm so it works out okay
01:55 est31 I should devote less :/
02:28 hmmmm https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3037
02:52 est31 This does add overhead
02:53 est31 perhaps you can ask the people who have the error in error handling error to checkout your pr?
02:53 est31 then they can find out the reason
02:53 est31 and we can merge the pr after the freeze
02:55 est31 have you found out why the lua engine is still running for a few secs?
03:15 hmmmm yes i know why, i already said
03:16 hmmmm it's even in the name
03:16 hmmmm AsyncFatalError
03:16 hmmmm Async
03:16 hmmmm est31:  it's a trivial amount of overhead
03:17 hmmmm the C to lua transition is much more costly in terms of performance
03:19 est31 whats the actual path here?
03:19 est31 you call some callback
03:19 est31 the lua code calls c code
03:19 est31 the c code throws an error
03:19 est31 and then?
03:20 hmmmm we don't know the path of the error
03:20 est31 is it ignored, the lua runtime continues its work, until it gets sent to the main thread, from where the lua runtime is finally stopped?
03:20 hmmmm oh you're talking about the async fatal errors
03:20 est31 yes
03:21 hmmmm a lua callback is run with lua_pcall()
03:21 hmmmm if that lua code calls some C code
03:21 hmmmm and there's an exception inside that C code
03:21 hmmmm it gets recast as a LuaError thanks to our super special error handling
03:21 hmmmm see: script_execution_wrapper
03:22 est31 and then?
03:22 hmmmm so inside the code somewhere if I do throw SerializationError(), then that lua_pcall would return LUA_ERRRUN
03:22 hmmmm and the error message would contain the contents of e.what()
03:22 hmmmm on the other hand, if the error happened inside the lua portion, then it just runtime errors without any special handling
03:23 hmmmm either case you get LUA_ERRRUN
03:23 hmmmm script_error is called in this case, which then throws a LuaError
03:23 hmmmm it gets caught by the top-level ServerThread exception handler, which sets a std::string to the contents of this exception message
03:23 hmmmm execution resumes
03:24 hmmmm the next server step, it checks this variable and notices that there was an error, then it asserts(0)
03:25 est31 ah I see now
03:25 est31 this doesnt feel right
03:26 hmmmm this makes it so that lua can error from any thread
03:27 est31 which threads call lua? Only emergethread and the server thread, right?
03:27 hmmmm anyway, can we somehow make it so that mods cannot change the debug namespace
03:27 hmmmm because that could be a cause of the error
03:27 hmmmm right now, yes, only the emergethreads and serverthread
03:30 est31 isnt having multiple threads in lua not a ticking time bomb already?
03:30 est31 I mean in the same lua context
03:30 hmmmm it's locked
03:30 hmmmm there are three major locks in minetest's server:
03:30 hmmmm envlock, conlock, and scriptlock
03:31 est31 ewwww
03:31 est31 so lua mapgen isnt multithreaded???
03:31 hmmmm lua mapgen isn't
03:31 est31 :-[
03:31 hmmmm the regular mapgen is
03:32 est31 how could the debug namespace change cause errors?
03:33 hmmmm it causes an error in the error handler, which uses the debug namespace
03:34 hmmmm by the way, here is part of my testing mod: http://fpaste.org/254168/14393504/
03:37 est31 ok
03:38 est31 so you mean things like this: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3037/​files#diff-7b4242351dd3cf5b2a70c8aa9d12149bR470
03:38 est31 where the debug namespace is accessed?
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04:07 hmmmm no, modifying it
04:07 hmmmm not calling a function in it
04:07 hmmmm anyway, approved or not?
04:09 est31 hmmmm, the pr has many lines
04:09 hmmmm ah ok ok i wasn't sure if you were looking at it still
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04:26 kaeza hmmmm, if you are concerned about `debug` table getting modified, you should explicitly localize the needed functions instead of the table itself
04:27 est31 that might be better agreed
04:27 est31 is*
04:28 kaeza of course, there are ways to modify function locals anyway, assuming you have access to `debug` in the first place
04:29 hmmmm it's practically the only way i know how to cause a true LUA_ERRERR
04:30 hmmmm i don't actually think messing with the debug namespace is the reason why this happens, but it might be something similar
04:34 est31 kaeza, access to debug is limited
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04:35 est31 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob​/502e40a649137461947c36ea52205f058f81296f​/src/script/cpp_api/s_security.cpp#L108
04:35 est31 @ least if security is turned on
04:38 kaeza well, if a mod goes to those lengths to modify your upvalues, give it a cookie :P
04:40 est31 I agree. we wont get it 100% secure here.
04:40 est31 also if a mod wants to stay hidden it can simply register during runtime
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06:07 RealBadAngel #3038
06:07 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3038 -- Add main menu music score - "Mercury Rain" by Skaven/FC by RealBadAngel
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06:30 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/626
06:30 RealBadAngel here goes fixed grass nodes definitions
06:31 RealBadAngel regular grass, dry grass and grass with snow
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06:56 RealBadAngel celeron55, why you are using git for chatting? channel is not enough?
07:01 celeron55 git?
07:01 celeron55 do you mean github?
07:02 hmmmm :|
07:02 celeron55 because github issues is our primary communcation channel for issues; IRC is secondary
07:02 hmmmm celeron, RBA, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3037 ??
07:02 hmmmm PTAL
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07:16 RealBadAngel hmmmm, about such code, its not my area. so i can just trust you with +1
07:16 celeron55 ...
07:17 hmmmm the point of a code review is to review code
07:17 hmmmm not to review trust
07:17 RealBadAngel i know but you asked me
07:17 hmmmm I dunno I thought maybe you might know about it
07:17 RealBadAngel the files im working on i know since 2 yrs
07:17 RealBadAngel its like being home
07:18 RealBadAngel if you ask about anything mapblock_mesh related i know where it is without lookin at the file
07:18 RealBadAngel but when it comes to your code i simply  dont know
07:19 RealBadAngel and i also dont want to be just formatting and whitespaces commenter
07:19 hmmmm fair enough
07:22 RealBadAngel earining a +1 by trust is also solid imho
07:22 RealBadAngel we should support each other
07:23 RealBadAngel frankly i do not understand those flame wars going on here recently
07:24 RealBadAngel brb, going out to buy a piece of pipe
07:24 RealBadAngel need to craft something in the kitchen :)
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07:25 RealBadAngel when i will be back i will make a pr with more normal and heightmaps for mt game
07:25 est31 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3037/​files#diff-2d01836e6c0329cf2b516efb9b407661R249
07:25 est31 hmmmm, why do we need absolute indices here?
07:26 hmmmm good question
07:26 est31 lua_istable should work with it in theory
07:27 est31 dunno bout the getstringfield_default, its minetest custom written
07:27 hmmmm yes
07:27 hmmmm it seems like that's okay too
07:27 hmmmm just to be safe i guess
07:27 RealBadAngel hmmmm, est31 what are your votes on "Mercury Rain" btw?
07:28 est31 can you try whether it works without the manual setting?
07:28 est31 err resolval*
07:28 hmmmm i dunno RBA
07:29 hmmmm adding music to the core?
07:29 hmmmm that's such a subgame thing
07:29 est31 my main concern too.
07:29 RealBadAngel games can have own music
07:29 RealBadAngel in the menu too
07:29 celeron55 isn't "origin" a bit too common keyword to be used for that functionality as essentially a hidden field? i mean, some definition might want to have a coordinate origin or something
07:29 est31 personally I like it, it also fits the main theme IMO, but perhaps more an mtgame thing.
07:30 est31 there we dont have the large file problem
07:30 RealBadAngel we are talkin now about main music title
07:30 hmmmm I dunno, perhaps
07:30 RealBadAngel 1,5mb is a joke not an argument
07:30 hmmmm are underscores reserved for special identifiers in lua or something?
07:30 RealBadAngel on my phone i do have monthly 75gbs limit...
07:30 hmmmm i can make it like
07:30 hmmmm _mod_origin
07:31 celeron55 well i think "mod_origin" would already be enough
07:31 est31 origin_mod?
07:33 hmmmm does anybody aside from RBA want music as part of the core?
07:34 hmmmm just curious
07:34 est31 this for example is something to ask in github
07:35 est31 the people in question might not be online
07:44 celeron55 by the way, is there any estimate about in what percentage of errors this reveals the mod being a problem compared to not having these changes?
07:45 hmmmm 100%, when you get LUA_ERRMEM or LUA_ERRERR
07:46 est31 3037 looks good
07:49 celeron55 i can't find issues other than the one i said
07:50 est31 (except ofc my mostly nitpicky comments)
07:50 est31 now, what about #3033 and #3034
07:50 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3033 -- Add count based unload limit for mapblocks by est31
07:50 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3034 -- Fix Lua PcgRandom by est31
07:51 hmmmm wait no that breaks it
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07:52 hmmmm or does it
07:52 nrzkt hmmmm, RealBadAngel: i think adding music to game with a fallback to a core music could be good :)
07:52 hmmmm est31:  does it pass the unit tests with that commit?
07:53 nrzkt if file games/<gamename>/mainmusic.ogg => play it, else play sounds/mainmusic.ogg ?
07:53 est31 hmmmm, pcgrandom doesnt have unit tests
07:53 est31 but I can try
07:53 hmmmm are you sure
07:55 hmmmm so if rng_max is 0xFFFFFFFF and bound is 4, then rng_max % bound == 3, 0xFFFFFFFF - 3 = 0xFFFFFFFC
07:55 kaeza I personally think that adding a 1.5M BINARY file to the repo is bad. maybe that should be made a separate DL?
07:55 hmmmm but 4 is a multiple of 0x100000000
07:56 hmmmm was PcgRandom::range() flawed to begin with?
07:56 hmmmm oh no, <
07:56 Calinou kaeza, we already have binary files in our main Git repo, it's no problem
07:56 est31 hmmmm, it was
07:56 hmmmm no, it's fine
07:56 Calinou this is not World of Padman, don't make it hard for people to listen to your music
07:56 est31 ::range(min, max) surely way
07:56 est31 was*
07:56 hmmmm how?
07:57 est31 see commit msg
07:57 est31 https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/​fb108317376d966a2299790e65c29ca88123f08e
07:57 hmmmm all that other stuff is unnecessary
07:57 est31 it creates a crash if you call range(minimal value for s32, maximal value for s32)
07:57 celeron55 about #3033: what about making the limit depend on the view distance?
07:57 hmmmm yeah
07:57 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3033 -- Add count based unload limit for mapblocks by est31
07:57 est31 hmmmm, yes the actual fix is only for two lines
07:58 hmmmm please get rid of that other stuff
07:58 celeron55 i mean, 1000 is going to limit high view distances and there's no GUI setting for it
07:58 hmmmm not only is it unnecessary, but it breaks things
07:58 est31 celeron55, think about teleporting back and forth between house and mine
07:58 hmmmm and there are PcgRandom tests by the way, check out src/unittests/test_random.cpp
07:58 est31 hmmmm, it breaks nothing
07:58 hmmmm [03:55 AM] <hmmmm> so if rng_max is 0xFFFFFFFF and bound is 4, then rng_max % bound == 3, 0xFFFFFFFF - 3 = 0xFFFFFFFC
07:58 celeron55 est31: think about that... why?
07:59 est31 celeron55, thats a common use case
07:59 est31 and it doesnt limit view range btw
07:59 est31 it only deletes unused blocks
07:59 hmmmm blocks distant from the player at a given time are not necessarily unused blocks
08:00 est31 unused blocks are blocks that we didnt use for rendering due to view range/view direction considerations
08:00 hmmmm this removes the least recently used blocks
08:00 celeron55 oh, if it doesn't affect used blocks then it's fine
08:00 hmmmm above the threshhold
08:00 celeron55 yes i know how the unused block thing works
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08:00 celeron55 ...i should because i made it, lol
08:00 est31 :)
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08:02 est31 so 0xFFFFFFFC is divideable through bound, no?
08:02 est31 thats all we require
08:02 hmmmm yes but
08:03 est31 a value which is as large as possible, and divideable through bound
08:03 hmmmm you're rejecting 4 values within the range now that you don't actually need to
08:03 est31 note, functionally the old implementation doesnt have problems
08:03 est31 but its a - hack
08:03 hmmmm how so
08:03 est31 and it is inconsistent
08:03 hmmmm if you reject values, that changes the output of the RNG because now next() is called a different number of times
08:03 est31 look ar the old assignment for threshold: - bound % bound
08:03 est31 at*
08:04 hmmmm and what of it?
08:04 est31 inconsistent in the sense that the comment doesnt match behaviour
08:04 est31 you write that you drop values above a threshold
08:04 est31 but you actually drop them below it
08:05 est31 other option: perhaps I only fix the comment?
08:05 hmmmm so why not change the comment instead of the code
08:05 est31 I've thought its clearer this way
08:05 est31 more understandable
08:05 hmmmm especially seeing as how changing the code modifies the output (not necessarily fairness, i think) of the rng
08:05 est31 thats an argument
08:06 hmmmm if you did ./bin/minetest --run-unittests there's a chance it might fail :)
08:06 est31 the buildbot usually does this
08:07 est31 and there is a green symbol
08:07 hmmmm are you sure it does
08:08 est31 well, I gonna add unittests for the old crash reason, and change only the comments
08:08 est31 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/​blob/master/util/travis/script.sh#L16
08:08 est31 hmmmm, ^
08:08 hmmmm oh dear
08:09 celeron55 does that not exit 1 if the unit tests fail?
08:09 hmmmm ah okay, it abort()s
08:09 hmmmm i thought i might've changed it on accident
08:10 est31 https://travis-ci.org/minetes​t/minetest/jobs/75127489#L705
08:11 kahrl well, the unit tests probably don't call the RNG enough times to get a rejected value
08:11 hmmmm yeah it's probably a good idea to add a unit test for the crashing input
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08:12 est31 the problems aren't rejected values here, the problem is when the range is so large that it creates an u32 overflow
08:12 hmmmm you might be confusing something
08:13 est31 ah
08:13 hmmmm we totally understand the cause of the crash
08:13 est31 ok
08:13 hmmmm that's not the concern
08:13 hmmmm that's fixed with two lines of code
08:13 est31 yea
08:14 est31 I don't even really know what happens with the "u32 threshhold = -bound % bound;" code
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08:14 est31 I just suspect that the explanation "In our example, threshhold == 3 - (3 % 3) == 3, so reject 3, thus
08:14 est31 making the range 3 with no bias." is wrong
08:15 hmmmm i might've made a typo
08:17 RealBadAngel im back
08:18 rubenwardy hmmmm, I'd like dynamic atmospheric music, but not sure on mainmenu music
08:18 rubenwardy mainmenu music should follow ingame music
08:18 rubenwardy dynamic atmospheric music - changes depending on what the player does
08:19 rubenwardy client side ambient sounds would be cool, too
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08:20 RealBadAngel rubenwardy, all that we already have
08:20 RealBadAngel we are talking now about lack of files for engine and the games in main menu
08:20 RealBadAngel see what my commit does
08:20 RealBadAngel it just adds missing media file
08:21 RealBadAngel and its fucking missing since a yr or something like that
08:21 rubenwardy We already have dynamic atmospheric music, that changes depending on whether the player is mining, or building etc?
08:21 RealBadAngel yup
08:22 RealBadAngel i guess you dont know all the aviable mods for mt just :P
08:22 rubenwardy what about client side ambient sounds (water, leaves, etc)
08:22 RealBadAngel its called ambient mod
08:22 rubenwardy slow
08:23 RealBadAngel you know why it can be called slow?
08:23 RealBadAngel because of c55's and others stating that sounds are too "heavy"
08:24 RealBadAngel since always sounds can be stored just client side
08:24 RealBadAngel and invoked from /sounds without a cache
08:24 RealBadAngel thats a general rule
08:25 RealBadAngel but it looks like (sounds like?) im the only one dev that have ears
08:25 rubenwardy I'm not talking about downloading the sounds, I'm talking about telling the client to play sounds
08:26 RealBadAngel write a better mod
08:26 rubenwardy testing the ambient mods now
08:29 est31 ok, updated the pr
08:29 est31 kahrl, does it look good?
08:29 RealBadAngel est31, yes or no please
08:30 est31 its best place is a custom subgame
08:30 rubenwardy The problems with the mod is that sounds just stop after you walk away from them, rather than fading out. When walking in water, the sound isn't proportional to speed. Non-essential effects like this should be done on the client side before waiting for server side reconciliation.
08:30 RealBadAngel est31, each game can have its own music still
08:30 rubenwardy I might write a test mod to develop an algorithm and an API though.
08:30 rubenwardy Minetest is for the deaf, I agree
08:31 RealBadAngel we are talking about ENGINE music score
08:31 RealBadAngel jesus, i wrote code to support that more than a yr ago
08:31 est31 well, we have clouds, they are quite heavy to render too
08:31 RealBadAngel are you really all DEAF?
08:31 est31 so music wont be heavier
08:32 RealBadAngel is that a +1?
08:33 est31 its a neutral, +0
08:33 RealBadAngel do me a favor please
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08:34 RealBadAngel im figthin for the legend
08:34 est31 lets just vote on github, every dev can place +1 or -1, as they want
08:34 rubenwardy Please may I have a link to that music you were suggesting? Dark score or something?
08:34 RealBadAngel the title that we will be proud of having for
08:35 est31 rubenwardy, #3038
08:35 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3038 -- Add main menu music score - "Mercury Rain" by Skaven/FC by RealBadAngel
08:36 kahrl est31: sorry I didn't follow the discussion enough to see if hmmmm's concerns were addressed
08:36 est31 does it look good for you?
08:36 RealBadAngel kahrl, your vote?
08:36 est31 from my judgement, his concerns were addressed
08:36 est31 the change is a 4 liner now
08:37 est31 2 lines fix, 2 lines test
08:37 est31 #3034
08:37 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3034 -- Fix Lua PcgRandom by est31
08:37 RealBadAngel my change is ZERO liner
08:37 * RealBadAngel turns on speaker louder
08:38 est31 hmmm's concerns were around additional changes to the range(bound) method
08:39 est31 while I still don't see how it can have a different result than 0 for the threshold, but thats another bug, and not high prio.
08:39 kahrl est31: ok yeah, looks good to me
08:40 kahrl RealBadAngel: I think music should be a subgame thing, too
08:40 kahrl sorry ;)
08:41 RealBadAngel kahrl, each subgame can have its own music, are you aware of that?
08:41 kahrl yes
08:41 RealBadAngel so why you deny engine to have its own?
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08:41 kahrl exactly because of that
08:42 RealBadAngel youre putting mt in a same league as minesweeper is
08:42 Amaz Where does the subgame music go?
08:42 kahrl minesweeper did not support subgames last time I checked, no?
08:43 RealBadAngel make a /sounds folder and put there main_menu.ogg
08:43 Amaz Thanks!
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08:43 rubenwardy I like mercury rain, however it may be too metallic for some peoples ideas of Minetest
08:44 RealBadAngel its a matter of taste
08:44 RealBadAngel but one thing we do know
08:44 est31 celeron55's compromise is a good one
08:44 RealBadAngel this tune is about 20 yrs old
08:44 est31 lets put it out, if people like it, we can continue its use
08:44 RealBadAngel its made by the legendary composer
08:45 RealBadAngel and is the legend
08:45 est31 if people dont like it, we stop
08:45 RealBadAngel we wont get anything more legendary than this one
08:45 est31 and btw, does it really have to be 1.5 mb?
08:45 est31 can't it be compressed somehow?
08:45 RealBadAngel fuck
08:45 ThatGraemeGuy will there be an option to disable menu music for those who don't care for it?
08:45 RealBadAngel 1,5mb?
08:46 RealBadAngel who the fuck cares about 1,5mb?????????????????????????????​??????????????????????????????????​?????????????????????????????????
08:46 RealBadAngel are you insane?
08:46 celeron55 est31: if we want to test it without having the overhead of making a proper media repository now, i guess we could make a recommendation for packagers to package that track for the upcoming version
08:46 est31 good idea
08:47 est31 just try to convince blockmen xD
08:47 rubenwardy why can only sounds connected to objects can be looped
08:47 kahrl Please don't spam so many question marks. They drain my volume limit
08:47 rubenwardy do sounds not return an id to control them?
08:48 RealBadAngel i put them here on purpose
08:48 est31 haha kahrl you are at drosselkom ?
08:48 RealBadAngel 1,5 mb size is a joke
08:48 kahrl hehe no I switched off of it ;)
08:48 rubenwardy Bundle it with 0.4.13, count how many people complain
08:49 rubenwardy or 0.4.13-RC2, if it exists
08:49 celeron55 i'm starting to think testing it that way is a good idea
08:49 est31 can we make it download during the build process?
08:50 est31 if there --> dont do anything
08:50 est31 if not there --> download
08:50 est31 no additional dependencies like git annex needed
08:50 celeron55 does windows have a command line download utility?
08:50 RealBadAngel excuse me guys, what kind of connections are you using?
08:50 RealBadAngel dial up?
08:51 Calinou there are Windows ports of curl
08:51 Calinou and maybe even aria2 (has BitTorrent support)
08:51 kahrl I don't like adding this to the build
08:51 celeron55 RealBadAngel: the music track will probably have to be changed roughly once per release in the worst case, which makes up a lot in the long run
08:51 RealBadAngel your problems are just fun in days when listening to the music is just launching youtbe
08:51 kahrl it makes the build nondeterministic, what if the network is having problems?
08:52 celeron55 Calinou: pre-installed on the system, i mean
08:52 rubenwardy cmake?
08:52 RealBadAngel celeron55, thats what you think. you dont have any artistic taste. youre technican coder
08:52 rubenwardy or using CURL with C++?
08:52 rubenwardy bit low
08:52 est31 ah I remember now, I've heard debian crowd makes builds on offline machines
08:53 celeron55 kahrl: that's an issue, yes; altough many software does that these days
08:53 RealBadAngel celeron55, that was not an insult. its just my observation
08:53 est31 we have curl already, rubenwardy's idea is good too
08:53 Niebieski joined #minetest-dev
08:54 est31 it can even be scripted from mainmenu lua if im not wrong
08:54 rubenwardy problem is downloading arbitary files from the internet at a subgames request
08:54 est31 its not a subgame here
08:54 est31 but engine
08:54 RealBadAngel hold on
08:54 rubenwardy wat
08:54 RealBadAngel engine and subgame can have own ones
08:55 RealBadAngel we are talkin now about missing media files for all the cases
08:55 RealBadAngel you have all missed the code for that
08:55 celeron55 i guess the cleanest option would probably be having a separate repo for engine media that the build system can utilize if it is downloaded into a subdirectory of the engine prior to building the engine - the use of which would be recommended but optional
08:55 RealBadAngel no wonder, it was yrs ago
08:56 RealBadAngel celeron55, that will effectively end up with incomplete builds
08:56 celeron55 then you could make functional builds of the engine without the bloated media repository if you want, and the media repository could be as big as we care to make it
08:57 kahrl RealBadAngel: I wouldn't call it incomplete if it is missing optional stuff
08:57 RealBadAngel celeron55, are you using a dial up or not?
08:57 RealBadAngel what is your connection, PLEASE
08:57 est31 we should have an unified setup for users
08:57 celeron55 RealBadAngel: you already have to build a game with the engine to make it useful; having an optional engine media repo is nothing compared to that
08:57 est31 RealBadAngel, this is not about connections
08:57 est31 this is about adding files permanently to the size
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08:58 est31 if we change the music every release, and we had it from the beginning, we had a three times as large repo
08:58 RealBadAngel youre guys all serious about the size?
08:58 RealBadAngel i am adding a few megabytes for heightmaps
08:59 est31 thats inside minetest_game
08:59 RealBadAngel like 0.25 each one
08:59 RealBadAngel bullshit
08:59 RealBadAngel its not Z80 era
08:59 kilbith joined #minetest-dev
08:59 RealBadAngel i feel now like a moron
09:00 kilbith a side-note about bloated media, this commit has added 4 MB (!) of uneeded fonts already : https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/dceb9f7d6058785cf60d9dbcc8eecdcee1053412
09:00 RealBadAngel demanding nowadays game to have music
09:00 RealBadAngel what an idiot i am
09:00 RealBadAngel because folks wont be able to download 1,5mb
09:01 RealBadAngel i feel so sorry that i will hit a wall at least 1,5kk times
09:01 RealBadAngel starting now
09:01 rubenwardy also: sound reflection, refraction, absorbtion
09:01 rubenwardy I want sound to go dimmer if behind a wall
09:01 est31 hah, rubenwardy we dont do this for light already
09:01 rubenwardy I feel like working on this
09:01 RealBadAngel rubenwardy, are you sure u cant  have this?
09:02 RealBadAngel theres an opensource lib that does it all
09:02 RealBadAngel but as usual we CANT have it merged
09:02 RealBadAngel jarheads
09:02 RealBadAngel :P
09:02 rubenwardy the suspense is killing me
09:02 rubenwardy opensparelib
09:02 celeron55 kilbith: i know of that and it is painful
09:02 celeron55 kilbith: i wasn't looking when that happened
09:02 rubenwardy it's fine to add dependencies, just as optional
09:03 Calinou why do we use bitmap fonts in 2015? :-)
09:03 est31 ^
09:03 est31 my opinion to this too
09:03 kilbith i knew you were complaing about this, c55
09:03 kilbith complaining*
09:03 rubenwardy *openspatiallib
09:03 RealBadAngel Calinou, 2015 is too soon for a bitmap font. you have to wait till another century
09:03 rubenwardy What's the library you're thinking of called, RealBadAngel?
09:04 celeron55 we should have a check in CI that fails the build if it contains files larger than 100kB because they are just wrong
09:04 rubenwardy in Minetest yes
09:04 RealBadAngel celeron55, dont make yourself an idiot
09:04 rubenwardy imo it shouldn't provide too many resources, although: fallbacks
09:04 RealBadAngel we are already using files way larger
09:05 RealBadAngel youre just outdated
09:05 kilbith otherwise agreed, music should belongs to a subgame only
09:05 kilbith sorry RBA
09:05 celeron55 at this rate i'm starting to feel i have to fork minetest and restart the repo to make things sane in the long term
09:06 rubenwardy I have a friend with an 100 KBps connection
09:06 RealBadAngel they are living on Mars?
09:06 celeron55 and RBA won't be approved to be a developer on that repo
09:06 rubenwardy nope, rural England
09:06 RealBadAngel lol
09:06 kilbith you don't need to fork c55, it's your project
09:06 rubenwardy I have 12 Mbps on a good day
09:07 RealBadAngel nah, im going to make my own fork then
09:07 celeron55 kilbith: well, a fork is both a technical and a political term
09:07 rubenwardy don't be silly about it though
09:07 kilbith you do decide whatever you want under your own roof
09:07 RealBadAngel this way im saying goodbye to all of you guys
09:07 RealBadAngel that was the final limit
09:08 Calinou maybe RealBadAngel should fork Minetest, or start his own project
09:08 Calinou we have to care about the legacy
09:08 Calinou but maybe you don't
09:08 RealBadAngel i was testing you with the music
09:08 RealBadAngel waited for that for more than a year
09:09 RealBadAngel please somebody take away my push rights
09:09 RealBadAngel i dont want them
09:09 rubenwardy I think that you're being irrational, RealBadAngel. Yes we need music in Minetest, but it isn't important enough to quit over
09:09 RealBadAngel i am leaving
09:09 rubenwardy Also, I think ingame music over main menu music
09:09 celeron55 oh... well i certainly can
09:09 rubenwardy although main menu music is good
09:09 RealBadAngel do it
09:10 rubenwardy I'm working on an environmental sounds mod with LVM
09:11 RealBadAngel rubenwardy, im not irrational. i am consequent. i do have a goal.
09:12 RealBadAngel you all dont like my goals? so im leaving
09:12 rubenwardy I like your goals
09:12 RealBadAngel simple as that
09:12 rubenwardy Your commits aren't perfect, nobodys' are
09:12 kilbith we don't like *one* of your goals at least
09:13 Calinou this isn't an AAA game, we can't afford everyone to have a reliable high-speed connection
09:13 Calinou some of our players play on mobile networks
09:13 rubenwardy However ingame music should come before main menu music imo (but that shouldn't stop it)
09:13 celeron55 well i like the goal of having music in minetest, but the way you are trying to do it is technically wrong and would have long-term consequences that i do not want
09:13 celeron55 you aren't responsible for the long term consequences
09:13 celeron55 i am
09:13 rubenwardy git isn't meant for large files, really
09:13 kilbith also people may especially don't like black mailing and no-compromise spirit
09:13 rubenwardy Calinou: it should be possible to opt-out some how
09:14 rubenwardy main menu music is on Minetest download, not on server connect
09:14 Calinou have you looked at git-lfs?
09:14 rubenwardy Yeah, this is blackmail
09:14 est31 kilbith, good point
09:14 rubenwardy Calinou, isn't it paid for?
09:14 Calinou https://git-lfs.github.com/
09:14 RealBadAngel Calinou, my phone limit is 75gbs, just rethink your arument
09:15 Calinou my SSD is 256 GB "only" and there's only 25 GB left...
09:15 Calinou I'd rather not have repositories grow too large
09:15 rubenwardy RealBadAngel, that's limit not speed
09:15 rubenwardy Calinou: it is just a few MB. But those do add up.
09:16 Calinou why don't we add music to minetest_game instead?
09:16 celeron55 Calinou: does there exist an open source production-ready git-lfs server?
09:16 celeron55 seems like only proprietary ones exist
09:16 celeron55 hmm gitlab maybe
09:16 Calinou oh, github.com doesn't support it "yet"
09:17 Calinou they say it's coming soon, but has been for 6 months
09:17 celeron55 wait no gitlab is paid
09:17 RealBadAngel Calinou, games can add the scores too
09:17 est31 gitlab is free no?
09:17 RealBadAngel each game can
09:17 est31 as in beer and as in freedom
09:17 Calinou GitLab CE is gratis and libre, GitLab.com is just gratis
09:17 Calinou (it runs an hybrid CE-EE installation)
09:18 RealBadAngel anyway its not anylonger my concern
09:18 est31 we can ask github for early access
09:18 RealBadAngel i will credit all you guys in my releases
09:18 est31 months ago they asked me every time I've logged in
09:18 RealBadAngel but im going different way
09:19 RealBadAngel i want the game to shine and rock
09:19 RealBadAngel and i will do that
09:20 RealBadAngel celeron55 can stick to intel 945 and dial up
09:20 celeron55 i simply don't understand why you couldn't implement a way for the main menu to play menu music from subgames
09:20 RealBadAngel i wont
09:20 RealBadAngel rotfl
09:20 celeron55 it would be clean and very functional
09:20 nore joined #minetest-dev
09:20 celeron55 everyone would like it
09:20 RealBadAngel it is implemented you fool
09:20 est31 there is one AFAIK already
09:20 RealBadAngel since a yr
09:20 RealBadAngel or even more
09:20 nore_ joined #minetest-dev
09:21 celeron55 ...umm... why are we discussing this at all then?
09:21 RealBadAngel youre showing yourself as a dumb
09:21 nore_ left #minetest-dev
09:21 celeron55 this just got much weirder
09:21 rubenwardy RealBadAngel, what sound library were you talking about?
09:21 RealBadAngel you dont know even what code allows
09:21 RealBadAngel i am adding now just missing media files
09:21 RealBadAngel code is here
09:21 RealBadAngel for core and the subgames
09:22 RealBadAngel youre just making yourself a laughing figure celeron55
09:22 RealBadAngel sorry
09:22 RealBadAngel you keep saying no just to say no
09:22 est31 RealBadAngel, why is it so important to be in the engine?
09:23 celeron55 when has main menu music provided by subgames been implemented and where is it documented?
09:23 est31 it can me in mtgame too
09:23 celeron55 i can't find it
09:23 RealBadAngel beacuse players do have ears?
09:23 kahrl why do I have the feeling that RBA wanted to leave anyway and needed an excuse to do so
09:23 RealBadAngel its pretty common for earhtlings too
09:23 RealBadAngel if you dont have ears? i just can say im sorry to HEAR that
09:24 rubenwardy I think everyone just needs to calm down :P
09:24 RealBadAngel kahrl, oh rly?
09:24 RealBadAngel one yr of trying to push a legend into core is not enough?
09:25 RealBadAngel whatever
09:25 celeron55 this is ridiculous, all i have been asking for the past 10 minutes has been information and RBA is just raging
09:25 RealBadAngel i wont make proller mistakes
09:25 kilbith i don't think we cares who's the one who made the music
09:26 RealBadAngel its not really important. but that could be our added value
09:26 est31 celeron55, I think its core.sound_play("main_menu", true) in builtin/mainmenu/init.lua
09:26 est31 added by commit c3984569
09:26 est31 by sapier
09:26 RealBadAngel having legendary music score for our main title
09:27 RealBadAngel but others do piss on the scores at all
09:28 RealBadAngel demoscene therm doesnt mean anything for youngsters like celeron55 or hmmm
09:28 celeron55 est31: but... no game is loaded at that point, so it won't play anything from any subgame
09:28 RealBadAngel theyere just techicans, not the artists
09:28 RealBadAngel they will always care more bout naming or tabs
09:28 RealBadAngel not the content
09:29 RealBadAngel under such leaders game will die
09:29 celeron55 est31: i think i might feel like implementing this then
09:29 RealBadAngel being perfect eventually
09:29 est31 ok celeron55
09:30 est31 RealBadAngel, are you really sure it is already implemented for subgames?
09:30 RealBadAngel yes
09:30 RealBadAngel each game can support own music
09:31 RealBadAngel i dont remember anybody changing that code
09:31 RealBadAngel it was designed so on PilzAdam's request
09:33 Amaz RBA, it doesn't seem to work for me... I followed the instructions you gave me above, but nothing plays in the menu...
09:33 Amaz However, a sounds folder in .minetest works fine.
09:34 RealBadAngel you should make also next /sounds folder in your game folder
09:35 RealBadAngel we do miss such folders yet
09:35 est31 pushing #3034  then
09:35 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3034 -- Fix Lua PcgRandom by est31
09:35 Amaz The structure is like this <game>/sounds/main_menu.ogg
09:35 RealBadAngel but engine checks for that
09:36 RealBadAngel lemme check that again, this code is really yrs old
09:36 RealBadAngel hold on
09:37 celeron55 RealBadAngel: what you said is not true; playing subgame sounds in the menu has never been supported
09:38 RealBadAngel celeron55, please gimme a few minutes, testing that
09:38 RealBadAngel i surely coded that feature
09:39 celeron55 i went through the related parts in version control history and what you are describing is nowhere to be found
09:39 RealBadAngel im just not sure if it was merged
09:39 est31 there is #1651
09:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1651 -- Menu music (WIP) by RealBadAngel
09:40 celeron55 oh
09:40 celeron55 yes, are you referring to that?
09:40 RealBadAngel a sec
09:41 RealBadAngel need to reboot. brb
09:43 celeron55 that's not even bad, given that the ogg file is removed
09:43 TBC_x Why not use midi for some sounds?
09:43 celeron55 altough it breaks some functionality in guiEngine.cpp which should be fixed before that is merged, if it will be
09:48 est31 #3039
09:48 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3039 -- Is the threshold in PcgRandom::range(bound) doing its job?
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09:54 celeron55 TBC_x: it's not really a modern way of doing things and could put players and developer off; also platform support might suck or it would involve a big library and a big sound library
09:55 kahrl est31: bound is unsigned in PcgRandom but signed in your test
09:56 rubenwardy how to credit enough git user? I need their email address, iirc there's something like username@github.com
09:57 est31 ah I see
09:58 Amaz rubenwardy, do you mean <user>@users.noreply.github.com ?
09:58 rubenwardy thanks
09:58 Amaz No problem.
10:01 Player_2 joined #minetest-dev
10:01 RealBadAngel joined #minetest-dev
10:01 RealBadAngel back
10:02 RealBadAngel celeron55, yes, the code for subgames was not it
10:03 RealBadAngel but its trivial
10:04 RealBadAngel 18 september 2014....
10:08 rubenwardy Amaz, didn't work: https://github.com/rubenwardy/mi​netest_web_panel/commits/master
10:09 RealBadAngel not a week for the commit to be exactly 1 yrs old....
10:10 rubenwardy september, not auguest
10:10 RealBadAngel ouch
10:18 kilbith hey wtf
10:18 kilbith RBA is no longer core-dev ??
10:18 kilbith https://github.com/orgs/minetest/people
10:20 est31 he resigned
10:20 rubenwardy kilbith, read the logs
10:20 rubenwardy Over main menu music
10:20 est31 sadly :/
10:20 kilbith i thought it was just a wild reaction
10:20 est31 me too
10:20 kilbith nothing serious
10:21 kilbith RBA, don't behave like a kid doing a tantrum in a supermarket
10:21 kilbith you're more valuable than that
10:21 est31 ^
10:22 Amaz ^
10:27 Routh joined #minetest-dev
10:37 RealBadAngel yes i have gived up
10:37 RealBadAngel but not with the project at all
10:37 RealBadAngel i have refused to work with stubborns and deaf folks like c55
10:38 est31 Do you want to code simple shaders?
10:38 RealBadAngel fork me :P
10:38 est31 just make sure to not change the license
10:38 RealBadAngel i know what i should code next
10:38 kilbith those stubborns obstruct your leaks and improve your code...
10:39 RealBadAngel i said "i wont follow prollers way"
10:39 RealBadAngel sure
10:39 RealBadAngel those stubborns could be able to code something working like this in the first place
10:39 RealBadAngel but they are not able to
10:40 kilbith be sure of what you're doing
10:40 RealBadAngel only thing is that can look for leaks
10:40 RealBadAngel and delete too much
10:40 kilbith you may not have quality-reviews in your fork
10:40 RealBadAngel and break funcionality
10:40 RealBadAngel im over 40yrs old, was a demoscene coder at age of 16
10:41 RealBadAngel i dont need reviews
10:41 RealBadAngel what counts is the effect
10:41 rubenwardy lol
10:41 rubenwardy it may be buggy and can only be run for a few hours, but look at these screenshots!
10:42 RealBadAngel if i made a leak, im sorry, i will fix that
10:42 est31 or require 100% CPU
10:42 est31 but on intel, its only 60%!
10:42 RealBadAngel ha ha ha
10:42 RealBadAngel trash that lib
10:42 RealBadAngel im not responisble for cores usage
10:43 RealBadAngel some1 hired jthread and is living without problems
10:43 RealBadAngel because its not visible :P
10:44 RealBadAngel funny thing is that it works ok with an intel and nvidia
10:44 RealBadAngel i suggest checking bank accounts because of that :P
10:45 RealBadAngel who knows how much c55 gets for the game working ok only with that hw
10:47 RealBadAngel nvm
10:48 RealBadAngel celeron55, shall i close my PR's now?
10:48 rubenwardy why?
10:49 celeron55 of course not
10:52 celeron55 if you aren't a core developer, you have all the rights to be a contributor like anyone else
10:55 Taoki Ugh... RBA is not a core dev any more? Great >_>
10:56 Taoki He's one of the best devs around. Not that others aren't good of course, just my opinion.
10:56 kilbith RBA, also are you able to manage a website/community ?
10:56 Taoki RealBadAngel: Really hope you won't leave the project or anything, please.
10:59 RealBadAngel i did
10:59 RealBadAngel talk to the deaf guys
11:00 RealBadAngel blind ones would work propably too
11:00 RealBadAngel theyre making a joint fighter project, not a game :P
11:01 Taoki Really, don't *sigh*
11:01 Taoki Will you make a fork of your own at least?!
11:01 Taoki Seriously, you did some great features for this project. It's only hurting the community and project that you're leaving over an argue with other devs.
11:05 Taoki I agree with you and the way you do things BTW, and likely others as well. I know some devs want a different direction however. Not sure exactly what my opinion on main menu music is exactly... depends how its implemented, I personally think it should be done through Lua but the menu LUA API should be more flexible to allow it more easily.
11:06 nrzkt C++ is as flexible as Lua for the menu sounds, it's a single specific code.
11:06 Taoki RealBadAngel: Really though, please think about it. This is just hurting the project and community. People have gotten past arguments in dev teams this way... you and celeron55 can and should find some way to get along on things. Not right away but in the near future.
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11:07 Taoki nrzkt: I generally like seeing as much as possible done Lua side. In this case I'd like menu music being triggered from Lua personally. But the menu Lua code needs to be flexible enough for that.
11:10 kaeza I don't understand what's the problem here. we have a framework to let games add their own menu BGM; we just don't want engine repo bloat
11:12 Taoki kaeza: I don't either. Only that RealBadAngel can't get along with celeron55 and other devs. Now a good part of the fate of this project is unknown to me.
11:13 Taoki I wonder if menu music is the only issue here.
11:13 RealBadAngel minetest will be free to take anything i wil code
11:13 RealBadAngel i wont make it a different license
11:13 Taoki RealBadAngel: So you're starting a fork of your own at least?
11:13 Taoki Like proller started Freeminer
11:14 ThatGraemeGuy this is hardly the first epic ragequit in the history of collaborative projects, and it damn sure won't be the last
11:15 Taoki ThatGraemeGuy: It still sucks. Minetest is one of the few FOSS projects lucky to have such activity and such a constant growth. Many have few developers and went down to only a few commits each year, with releases every 3 years.
11:16 * Taoki also finds it funny how this coincides with justin having left the opensim project today
11:17 kaeza RealBadAngel, did you bother to read? main menu code = yes, (relatively) big music file = no
11:17 ThatGraemeGuy have you seen the amount of inane, petty bickering that goes on via github comments? this will keep happening, people will keep joining and quitting, the world will surely survive to see another day
11:17 ThatGraemeGuy well eventually it won't, but it won't be as a result of all this soap opera bullshit
11:17 Taoki ThatGraemeGuy: Still harms a great project and slows down its progress.
11:17 kaeza and yes, 1.5M is big. think about what would happen if for X reason you have to replace the file
11:18 Taoki I personally think games should define their own menu music. BUT, the MineTest engine and builtin scripts need to make that easy.
11:18 Taoki I don't care about minetest_game as much, since it's clear that won't go too far. Mostly about the engine. And in this regard, I am a fan of leaving as much as possible Lua-side. But that's just me.
11:24 RealBadAngel kaeza, 1,5 mb is 3 or 4 normal maps
11:24 RealBadAngel it a fucking joke
11:25 kilbith you'll be forced to nuke your normalmaps files btw
11:25 RealBadAngel i saw yesterday a stick at food store
11:25 RealBadAngel 30gbs
11:25 kilbith because if the textures change, that makes the normalmaps incompatible
11:26 RealBadAngel costin as much as 10kg sack of potatoes
11:26 kilbith in fact i'm sure paramat will do that
11:27 RealBadAngel next one raisin the memory argument in front of me will get a smash with rotten banana
11:28 rubenwardy 1.5 MB isn't that much
11:28 RealBadAngel i dont want to be counted as deaf and blind guys among doing Minecraft clone
11:28 rubenwardy that's no the issue here
11:28 rubenwardy *not
11:29 Taoki RealBadAngel: Anyway, if you really must make a fork, I certainly will be very interested in it. If possible however, please try to make a pull request for normal Minetest for every major change you make. Also to keep up with all other changes and imp[rovements in core Minetest, there are many good and useful ones being done constantly.
11:29 RealBadAngel you can copy my code if you will ask for it
11:29 RealBadAngel but certainly i wont answer any c55 questions
11:29 RealBadAngel just because
11:30 Taoki RealBadAngel: Regarding menu music, I certainly do NOT think that a 1.5 MB music file is too big... I agree that part is silly. However: I agree that menu music should be a sub-game choice, and done in menu Lua. I prefer a lightweight engine as well in general. But of course it's up to you... just my own suggestion.
11:30 RealBadAngel c55 feel free to cook yourself in your own sauce
11:30 RealBadAngel and buildat :P
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11:31 Taoki To be honest, I like the way MT keeps itself lightweight like that. The 1.5MB file thing did take it too far however.
11:31 RealBadAngel Taoki, c55 cannot allow 1,5mb at all
11:31 RealBadAngel hes too poor
11:31 Taoki I mean, as an idea. minetest_game is probably too simple to have menu music anyway.
11:31 err404 joined #minetest-dev
11:32 Taoki Eh... no need to bash on him I think. He has his own opinions... I disagree with many myself though.
11:32 RealBadAngel is celeron55 finnish?
11:32 RealBadAngel i just wonder which place on earth 1,5mb is that much
11:33 RealBadAngel maybe we should all donate his goverment to let citizens use such big files
11:33 rubenwardy I disagree with Engine music. 1.5 MB isn't that much on it's own, but it adds up.
11:33 rubenwardy Also, no need to personal insults
11:33 rubenwardy *for
11:33 Taoki RealBadAngel: The main problem with large files is caching I believe. A few months ago, Minetest still took 5 entire minutes to connect to a server online, which was horrible. Perhaps that's a reason for such concerns?
11:33 RealBadAngel theyre not cached....
11:33 Taoki Yeah, no need to call c55 names RBA.
11:33 rubenwardy Taoki, mainmenu
11:33 rubenwardy not on server connection
11:34 RealBadAngel theyre get from local first
11:34 rubenwardy but yeah, that applied to large files generally
11:34 Taoki Ah, yes... this is client side, sorry.
11:34 Taoki The caching issue doesn't count.
11:34 RealBadAngel even ambience mods can have all sounds files stored client side
11:34 rubenwardy along with networking changes, we need better resource sending
11:34 RealBadAngel without single need to send them
11:34 Taoki Yes, resource sending is problematic.
11:34 rubenwardy If I have 12 Mbps, why does Minetest take so long?
11:35 Taoki Yep, know that feeling
11:35 RealBadAngel sounds doesnt have to be sent
11:35 rubenwardy (well, discounting server upload)
11:35 RealBadAngel make a /sounds folder
11:35 rubenwardy RealBadAngel, they should do in order to be fully flexible
11:35 RealBadAngel put there main_menu.ogg
11:35 est31 joined #minetest-dev
11:36 RealBadAngel if you want it to be sent  then thats ok
11:36 RealBadAngel im saying they can be pre packaged
11:36 rubenwardy yeah
11:36 Taoki But anyway: As long asthe main menu music is triggered from Lua (coding this in C++ would be pointless and against the point), I agree we can certainly afford a main menu song.
11:36 RealBadAngel but thats your problem not mine anymore
11:36 est31 Taoki, the problem aren't large files
11:37 RealBadAngel sorry im busy adding missing textures for minetest game
11:37 est31 the problem are the tons of nodedefs, and the fact we load their data so inefficiently
11:37 RealBadAngel est31 that is also your problem
11:37 est31 part of it is thanks too irrlicht suckery
11:37 RealBadAngel bye bye ;)
11:37 rubenwardy Taoki, already is
11:37 est31 RealBadAngel, i didnt say its not my problem
11:37 RealBadAngel left #minetest-dev
11:38 kaeza teh fuck
11:38 est31 sad he's gone
11:38 rubenwardy ~seen Zeno`
11:38 ShadowBot rubenwardy: I saw Zeno` in #minetest-dev 4 days, 23 hours, 56 minutes, and 39 seconds ago saying "basically you spat the numbers to stdout and piped them to whatever the silly thing is called and it'd rate it"
11:38 rubenwardy est31, insult him, he'll read the logs and come back immediately
11:38 kilbith thinking that i gave him donations for continue his work..
11:38 est31 hah lol, only idiots do that rubenwardy.
11:38 rubenwardy lol
11:39 est31 xD
11:39 rubenwardy I was going to ask Zeno` about the progress on Irrlicht abstraction
11:39 rubenwardy wait, can't we just switch to Antarctic pretty easily as it's an Irrlicht fork?
11:40 est31 we should, I guess
11:40 est31 but dunno if its generic enough
11:40 rubenwardy some things may need to be changes
11:40 est31 or just everything hacked to the use-case of STK
11:40 rubenwardy and features utilised
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11:41 RealBadAngel celeron55, please also remove my name from credits tab
11:42 sfan5 you mean move it to "previous core devs"
11:42 est31 do you want to be listed on previous core devs section?
11:42 est31 or complete remove?
11:42 RealBadAngel i dont want to be counted as a random deaf dev
11:42 est31 previous deaf dev?
11:42 est31 :)
11:42 kilbith can't you just take 2-3 days for making such decision ?
11:42 est31 ^
11:42 Taoki ^
11:43 RealBadAngel music code was 1 yrs old
11:43 RealBadAngel i waited enough
11:43 Taoki RealBadAngel: I think you're taking decisions while being angry now. This is not helpful. I too suggest taking  abreak for the time being, doing something else for a few hours and such.
11:43 RealBadAngel wanna live in stoneage? please, but without me
11:44 Taoki It would also be nice if you could at least stay on this channel...
11:44 RealBadAngel one fuckin YEAR is more than enough
11:44 RealBadAngel im tired of begging to make the game nicer
11:44 nrzkt RealBadAngel: bronze age, not stone age, please :D
11:44 RealBadAngel let c55 cook in own sauce
11:45 RealBadAngel im off, at last
11:45 * nrzkt hope this is a bearnaise
11:45 kaeza but my gfx card is from stone age :(
11:45 kilbith you're sounding just vindictive and punitive
11:45 kilbith that's all
11:45 RealBadAngel i do have rights to be so
11:45 RealBadAngel ive done a lot for this project
11:46 est31 highly respected
11:46 sfan5 why are all of you pushing to have him stay or having him rethink his decision
11:46 kilbith "i'm married to my wife since 30 years, so i have rights to rape her"
11:46 sfan5 trying to push him to do something we want won't make it any better
11:46 RealBadAngel im not rapin any1
11:46 sfan5 if he wants to resign, let him
11:47 est31 kilbith, your comparison is very very ugly
11:47 RealBadAngel maybe just c55 bandwith and ears ;)
11:47 rubenwardy Frankly I have had enough of this too
11:47 RealBadAngel c55 and others are blockin many things
11:47 Taoki RealBadAngel: I think all that me and others are saying is that you're very upset right now, legitimately or not. It's not healthy to take decisions in moods like this, because you can easily take wrong ones.
11:48 est31 sfan5, I never asked hin to rethink his descision
11:48 est31 him*
11:48 Taoki I really suggest taking a break, then thinking how to figure things out.
11:48 RealBadAngel we dont have circuits
11:48 sfan5 est31: i adressed "all of you" not you specificually
11:48 est31 just to do not in a rush
11:48 Taoki There are greater problems that got solved, in software development and not only. This will be too in some way.
11:49 RealBadAngel you will be granted to copy my solutions
11:49 RealBadAngel im not cutting my roots
11:50 Taoki I think it will be very important for both mainstream Minetest and your fork to continue sharing commits whenever possible
11:50 RealBadAngel but what i will get will be the freedom to decide
11:50 RealBadAngel i do have a consinstent vision how the game should look like
11:50 Taoki We all do, I do too
11:50 * VanessaE looks in
11:50 RealBadAngel since years im doing the code in that direction
11:51 est31 diversity is never bad
11:51 Taoki est31: true
11:51 Taoki RealBadAngel: Your shaders are one of the best things in that direction as well (likely not the only one)
11:51 RealBadAngel parallax code and heightmaps are the best example
11:51 Taoki Yep
11:51 Taoki I love Minetest a lot more thanks to these.
11:51 RealBadAngel thats one of the elements of my vision
11:52 RealBadAngel sadly, music is also an element of this
11:52 RealBadAngel and for those who say: play it in your music player?
11:52 RealBadAngel fuck off
11:53 RealBadAngel im not a kid
11:53 Taoki I don't think anyone would realistically suggest playing your menu music in a music player
11:53 est31 this is taste
11:53 RealBadAngel if you cannot aprreciate that the legend of the demoscene granted you rights for his music?
11:54 VanessaE I'm in favor of main menu music, even that tune that RBA refers to.  I'm fairly familiar with the artist in question.
11:54 RealBadAngel youre just a bunch of lunatic morons
11:54 VanessaE and bickering over 1.5 MB is just stupid.
11:54 rubenwardy the circuit pull request had a few problems, and then went dead due to rebasing issued
11:54 est31 RealBadAngel, "random bunch of lunatics", please
11:54 Taoki RealBadAngel: You really need to calm down for the time being. This isn't helping anyone right now.
11:54 rubenwardy I can't see c55 blocking it
11:54 VanessaE this may not be a AAA game, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to MAKE it one.
11:54 RealBadAngel random bunch of deaf lunatics :P
11:55 * ThatGraemeGuy signs "lol"
11:55 RealBadAngel dont forget "farts" issue
11:56 Taoki I'm disappointed if you're going to start insulting everyone now. I agree with your points, but this is bad now.
11:56 RealBadAngel thats only one funny sound in minetest at all :P
11:56 VanessaE https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2974
11:56 RealBadAngel Taoki, rly? blockmen yesterday called all my work shit
11:56 rubenwardy #2974
11:56 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2974 -- Very fast repeating step sounds on entity collision
11:57 Taoki And he did bad too then. Everyone should try to be civil about such issues.
11:57 RealBadAngel i am still kind
11:57 rubenwardy Minetest does have a sound problem, but main menu music doesn't solve that
11:57 RealBadAngel what im doing is being sarcastic
11:58 RealBadAngel rubenwardy, no need, your ears are safe
11:58 Taoki You are insulting people directly now, by calling them lunatics for example. That's really bad, and I think you know better than that. That's why I think we seriously need to take a break for the time being.
11:58 RealBadAngel this century your ears wont be raped by any legend ;)
11:58 RealBadAngel Taoki, im one of the so called lunatics
11:58 rubenwardy you're features are nice and your work is nice, however it tends to add memory leaks.
11:59 RealBadAngel see credits tab
11:59 rubenwardy "shit" is a bit of an exageration
11:59 est31 Taoki, its a reference to a sentence on the minetest.net website
11:59 Taoki Seriously... I don't want to start throwing critiques around myself now. But if there's one thing that always made me feel uneasy, for the years I've been around here, is the way many of the core developers like to... express themselves to put it lightly.
11:59 RealBadAngel and shit is a reference to blockmen and hmmm
12:00 rubenwardy You need to take criticism better :P
12:00 Taoki I'm not saying this to imply that I think I am better myself. But although the code itself is good in my book, I do not get a feeling of professionalism here, compared to other projects.
12:00 VanessaE Taoki: I agree, and I'm getting sick of it too.
12:01 Taoki It's like the devs are grumpy people just waiting to get angry and jump at each other.
12:01 est31 I don't think terms should be avoided just because there is a stupid rule obstructing your feelings
12:01 est31 and people can often be very angry
12:01 VanessaE when you try your damnedest to do something good and someone just insults it, you are not inclined to finish it, let alone improve it further.
12:01 est31 but I try to not make it personal
12:02 Taoki In early days (long ago when I girst joined the project), I got more or less hateful remarks from celeron55 myself. I was also a bit put off by seeing some attitudes from PilzAdam or hmmm on occasion. Now RealBadAngel, which I think is one of the nicest devs and also did some of the best code, rages and insults people here too.
12:02 Taoki Seriously. If there's anything I think really sucks in this project, it's this.
12:03 rubenwardy true
12:03 Taoki Join a project like OpenSim, or even a shooter like Xonotic. Apart from some people, the devs are always nice and ready to help, many of them pretty professional in this line too.
12:03 rubenwardy we need marriage therapy
12:03 Taoki There isn't an atmosphere like this there. Mind you, users argue from time to time... it's still the internet after all.
12:04 Taoki The only people I spoke a bit with who I don't at all feel disappointed by currently, are VanessaE and OldCoder. Might be more I'm missing... others I didn't talk to enough to know.
12:07 Taoki RealBadAngel: Also, BTW. I'm in the credits tab too, and don't wish to be removed from it. Sorry if you also consider me a lunatic for that.
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12:15 rubenwardy seriously, player:getpos()?
12:19 celeron55 sounds like the first two-worded object API method 8)
12:20 celeron55 from the first one of the nine commits each called "Scripting WIP"
12:22 celeron55 it's legendary by now
12:22 est31 ha lol
12:23 est31 back then features were developed in the master branch
12:23 celeron55 the day was 2011-11-12 and it was a glorious saturday
12:23 est31 instead of being perfected as pr
12:24 celeron55 that wasn't developed in the master branch; not even on github
12:24 celeron55 it was developed on a private repo that i hosted for myself
12:24 est31 when did minetest get published?
12:25 celeron55 do you mean minetest 0.4?
12:26 est31 ah you say you developed it on the private repo, then sent it to already existing github
12:27 Taoki est31: I believe the project was first posted around 2010. I think I found it about an year after it went public.
12:27 celeron55 0.3.0 was released on 2011-11-01 and 0.3.1 on 2011-11-09
12:28 sfan5 what about 0.2.x
12:28 Taoki I still remember those days. We didn't even have a realtime day / night cycle... there were 3 sky textures and lighting modes for day / dusk and dawn / night :)
12:28 sfan5 there were 0.2.x too
12:28 sfan5 was*
12:28 Taoki Nor sound.
12:29 celeron55 sfan5: they happened too but they aren't interesting in this context
12:31 celeron55 also fun fact: 0.0.2 and 0.2 were basically the same thing
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12:31 celeron55 with bad luck we might be at 0.0.4 now, lol
12:31 sfan5 0.0.4.13
12:31 est31 hah
12:32 sfan5 "4th proof of concept" "13th revision"
12:32 sfan5 "does it actually work?" "no"
12:32 est31 lol
12:32 sfan5 thats what i think of when i see 0.0.4.13
12:33 est31 suggestions
12:33 est31 ?
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12:34 celeron55 anyway if rubenwardy's point was that the naming is inconsistent, i guess get_pos should be supported :P
12:34 rubenwardy yeah
12:34 rubenwardy it definitely should
12:34 est31 question: before or after the feature freeze?
12:34 est31 I say after.
12:36 rubenwardy meh
12:36 rubenwardy better before so I can write my mods to use it
12:36 rubenwardy then again...
12:36 sfan5 not an important change which means after the freeze
12:36 rubenwardy okay
12:36 rubenwardy doesn't bother me that much
12:36 sfan5 "okay"
12:36 sfan5 thats my opinion, if everyone else thinks the other way then it will be before the freeze ends
12:39 celeron55 there's so little reason to care that i'm surprised anyone has any opinion about it
12:41 rubenwardy It's inconsistent and made me have to check the docs
12:42 rubenwardy Is it possible to use LuaVoxelManipulator to read nodes without starting mapgen?
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12:57 kaeza what are you trying to do?
12:58 rubenwardy ambient sounds but better
12:58 rubenwardy ambient sounds has no concept of sound origin
12:59 kaeza but you either play sound to a player, or to a specific position, in which case it's useless to play a sound if there's no player around
12:59 rubenwardy I'm using it to prototype possible algorithms
13:00 rubenwardy the code scans around the player and plays sounds in locations
13:02 est31 you can use areastore perhaps
13:03 rubenwardy hmmm
13:03 rubenwardy that's a good idea
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15:26 rubenwardy does Minetest not support 3D sounds?
15:26 rubenwardy minetest.sound_play(def.presence, {
15:26 rubenwardy pos = {x=x, y=y, z=z},
15:26 rubenwardy gain = def.presence.gain,
15:26 rubenwardy max_hear_distance = SCAN_RANGE
15:26 rubenwardy })
15:26 rubenwardy oops
15:26 rubenwardy oh well, when I move around that position it just plays the same sound from the same direction
15:27 Calinou is your sound file mono?
15:27 Calinou it must be, in order for it to be positional
15:28 rubenwardy 1 sec
15:31 rubenwardy importing into audacity gives two channels
15:32 rubenwardy however they appear to both be the same
15:32 Calinou then your sound isn't mono
15:32 Calinou make it so :)
15:32 rubenwardy fixed
15:33 rubenwardy that worked
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15:59 rubenwardy wow
15:59 rubenwardy <rubenwardy> how to average a large body of water into a single source?
16:00 rubenwardy <rubenwardy> area store would be good, but there's the difficulty in populating it
16:00 rubenwardy <rubenwardy> as an inoptimal algorithm: for each water source which isn't part of an area, expand out until non water blocks are met then stop
16:00 rubenwardy <rubenwardy> https://github.com/rubenwardy/environment
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20:50 paramat hi sfan5, please could you add your input to game#620 ? also see my last comment for possible changes
20:50 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/620 -- Flowers: Add sporeless mushrooms WIP by paramat
20:51 paramat argh just missed you again
20:52 paramat will get to work on tweaking that
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