Time Nick Message 00:02 hmmmm damn 00:02 hmmmm mods still get run for a couple of MS after a crash 00:03 est wtf 00:03 hmmmm hehe i see why it gets cleared sorta 00:04 est lets hope its not "i see, but had to sign an NDA", like in one part of the bible lol 00:12 hmmmm http://fpaste.org/254129/38330143/ 00:14 est ok 00:15 hmmmm it's because the fatal server arror as asynchronous 00:15 hmmmm trying to think of how this can possibly interact with other things to cause an error in error handling 00:16 hmmmm hopefully the debug namespace isn't getting overwritten or anything by an errant mod 00:16 est ? 00:17 est store it into a local variable 00:17 est file-local 00:17 est local debug = debug 00:17 hmmmm i mean before crashing 00:18 hmmmm besides, there's no way the lua state could get executed twice, there's scriptapi lock 00:24 est RealBadAngel, comments? #3036 00:24 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3036 -- Minimap needs to be customizeable by the server 01:39 hmmmm why is that a blocker 01:39 hmmmm est, come on 01:40 hmmmm let's not make this overcomplicated, yes? I'll just add a flag to hud_set_* 01:43 VanessaE speaking of minimap... 01:43 VanessaE https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=156&sid=ec1b28676d72c48c495920206bcae25a&p=186979#p186979 01:44 VanessaE take notice of the artifacts therein in inocudom's screenshot 01:44 est31 hmmmm, the I see following problems with adding flags to hud_set 01:44 est31 1. currently we explain which mode we have on switches 01:44 hmmmm it's not going to be flexible, yes i realize that 01:44 est31 of minimap modes 01:44 VanessaE er, this link might work better: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=186979#p186979 01:45 hmmmm just have an enable/disable switch for now 01:45 est31 thats already there 01:45 hmmmm from the server though? 01:45 est31 just hack the texture 01:45 hmmmm then what's wrong? 01:45 est31 dunno if the client can override it with texture packs 01:45 hmmmm VanessaE: heh 01:45 est31 but theoretically its possible 01:45 est31 it isnt proper. 01:46 est31 hud_set is neither 01:46 hmmmm VanessaE: it looks from that screenshot like the normal map is fully generated but the minimap image texture is not 01:46 hmmmm est31: what do you expect during feature freeze? 01:46 hmmmm this is supposed to be for minor fixes only 01:46 est31 hmmmm, agreed, but minimap is a major feature 01:46 hmmmm it's an unstable one 01:46 est31 unstable in which regard? 01:47 est31 there are some leaks with it, agreed, but we fixed most I guess 01:47 hmmmm things are going to be changing around it 01:47 hmmmm unstable in that sense 01:47 VanessaE hmmmm: might be. I've never seen this artifact on my setup but then again I don't use shaders, much less normals. 01:47 hmmmm hmm 01:47 est31 hmmmm, you know all this stuff wouldnt be needed if we had clientside scripting 01:47 hmmmm VanessaE: I'll have to look into it while i do the other minimap things 01:47 hmmmm est31, yes I realize that 01:47 est31 but we dont have it right now 01:47 hmmmm we have other things to do 01:47 VanessaE ok. just thought I'd mention it. 01:48 est31 so lets not sit in a corner and not do anything, because the clientsid escripting 01:48 hmmmm client side scripting is top priority for new features 01:48 est31 didnt happen yet 01:49 est31 that person is using freeminer btw 01:49 est31 they should ask the support of their fork 01:51 est31 the issue is, that proper minimap flexibility from the server requires: 01:51 est31 1. ability to turn it off 01:51 est31 2. ability to make minimap a craft-able item 01:51 est31 that's what I think we should aim for 01:51 est31 I dont see how the general setup of it will change in future 01:52 est31 e.g. that we have radar mode with different zoom levels, and that we have surface mode with different zoom levels 01:52 est31 thats all what my suggestion requires 01:53 est31 Yes, its done in feature freeze, but we renamed pine trees in feature freeze too. 01:53 hmmmm that was something paramat was doing with minetest game 01:53 est31 and thats even something very low priority 01:53 hmmmm i dunno what he's doing :p 01:53 est31 no, he did a commit on the engine too 01:53 hmmmm right i saw 01:54 hmmmm anyway instead of talking i need to be coding right now 01:54 est31 good. 01:54 hmmmm sorry don't take it personally 01:54 est31 nono, I talk too much as well. 01:55 hmmmm yeah but you have a seemingly endless supply of time and energy to devote to minetest 01:55 hmmmm so it works out okay 01:55 est31 I should devote less :/ 02:28 hmmmm https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3037 02:52 est31 This does add overhead 02:53 est31 perhaps you can ask the people who have the error in error handling error to checkout your pr? 02:53 est31 then they can find out the reason 02:53 est31 and we can merge the pr after the freeze 02:55 est31 have you found out why the lua engine is still running for a few secs? 03:15 hmmmm yes i know why, i already said 03:16 hmmmm it's even in the name 03:16 hmmmm AsyncFatalError 03:16 hmmmm Async 03:16 hmmmm est31: it's a trivial amount of overhead 03:17 hmmmm the C to lua transition is much more costly in terms of performance 03:19 est31 whats the actual path here? 03:19 est31 you call some callback 03:19 est31 the lua code calls c code 03:19 est31 the c code throws an error 03:19 est31 and then? 03:20 hmmmm we don't know the path of the error 03:20 est31 is it ignored, the lua runtime continues its work, until it gets sent to the main thread, from where the lua runtime is finally stopped? 03:20 hmmmm oh you're talking about the async fatal errors 03:20 est31 yes 03:21 hmmmm a lua callback is run with lua_pcall() 03:21 hmmmm if that lua code calls some C code 03:21 hmmmm and there's an exception inside that C code 03:21 hmmmm it gets recast as a LuaError thanks to our super special error handling 03:21 hmmmm see: script_execution_wrapper 03:22 est31 and then? 03:22 hmmmm so inside the code somewhere if I do throw SerializationError(), then that lua_pcall would return LUA_ERRRUN 03:22 hmmmm and the error message would contain the contents of e.what() 03:22 hmmmm on the other hand, if the error happened inside the lua portion, then it just runtime errors without any special handling 03:23 hmmmm either case you get LUA_ERRRUN 03:23 hmmmm script_error is called in this case, which then throws a LuaError 03:23 hmmmm it gets caught by the top-level ServerThread exception handler, which sets a std::string to the contents of this exception message 03:23 hmmmm execution resumes 03:24 hmmmm the next server step, it checks this variable and notices that there was an error, then it asserts(0) 03:25 est31 ah I see now 03:25 est31 this doesnt feel right 03:26 hmmmm this makes it so that lua can error from any thread 03:27 est31 which threads call lua? Only emergethread and the server thread, right? 03:27 hmmmm anyway, can we somehow make it so that mods cannot change the debug namespace 03:27 hmmmm because that could be a cause of the error 03:27 hmmmm right now, yes, only the emergethreads and serverthread 03:30 est31 isnt having multiple threads in lua not a ticking time bomb already? 03:30 est31 I mean in the same lua context 03:30 hmmmm it's locked 03:30 hmmmm there are three major locks in minetest's server: 03:30 hmmmm envlock, conlock, and scriptlock 03:31 est31 ewwww 03:31 est31 so lua mapgen isnt multithreaded??? 03:31 hmmmm lua mapgen isn't 03:31 est31 :-[ 03:31 hmmmm the regular mapgen is 03:32 est31 how could the debug namespace change cause errors? 03:33 hmmmm it causes an error in the error handler, which uses the debug namespace 03:34 hmmmm by the way, here is part of my testing mod: http://fpaste.org/254168/14393504/ 03:37 est31 ok 03:38 est31 so you mean things like this: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3037/files#diff-7b4242351dd3cf5b2a70c8aa9d12149bR470 03:38 est31 where the debug namespace is accessed? 04:07 hmmmm no, modifying it 04:07 hmmmm not calling a function in it 04:07 hmmmm anyway, approved or not? 04:09 est31 hmmmm, the pr has many lines 04:09 hmmmm ah ok ok i wasn't sure if you were looking at it still 04:26 kaeza hmmmm, if you are concerned about `debug` table getting modified, you should explicitly localize the needed functions instead of the table itself 04:27 est31 that might be better agreed 04:27 est31 is* 04:28 kaeza of course, there are ways to modify function locals anyway, assuming you have access to `debug` in the first place 04:29 hmmmm it's practically the only way i know how to cause a true LUA_ERRERR 04:30 hmmmm i don't actually think messing with the debug namespace is the reason why this happens, but it might be something similar 04:34 est31 kaeza, access to debug is limited 04:35 est31 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/502e40a649137461947c36ea52205f058f81296f/src/script/cpp_api/s_security.cpp#L108 04:35 est31 @ least if security is turned on 04:38 kaeza well, if a mod goes to those lengths to modify your upvalues, give it a cookie :P 04:40 est31 I agree. we wont get it 100% secure here. 04:40 est31 also if a mod wants to stay hidden it can simply register during runtime 06:07 RealBadAngel #3038 06:07 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3038 -- Add main menu music score - "Mercury Rain" by Skaven/FC by RealBadAngel 06:30 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/626 06:30 RealBadAngel here goes fixed grass nodes definitions 06:31 RealBadAngel regular grass, dry grass and grass with snow 06:56 RealBadAngel celeron55, why you are using git for chatting? channel is not enough? 07:01 celeron55 git? 07:01 celeron55 do you mean github? 07:02 hmmmm :| 07:02 celeron55 because github issues is our primary communcation channel for issues; IRC is secondary 07:02 hmmmm celeron, RBA, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3037 ?? 07:02 hmmmm PTAL 07:16 RealBadAngel hmmmm, about such code, its not my area. so i can just trust you with +1 07:16 celeron55 ... 07:17 hmmmm the point of a code review is to review code 07:17 hmmmm not to review trust 07:17 RealBadAngel i know but you asked me 07:17 hmmmm I dunno I thought maybe you might know about it 07:17 RealBadAngel the files im working on i know since 2 yrs 07:17 RealBadAngel its like being home 07:18 RealBadAngel if you ask about anything mapblock_mesh related i know where it is without lookin at the file 07:18 RealBadAngel but when it comes to your code i simply dont know 07:19 RealBadAngel and i also dont want to be just formatting and whitespaces commenter 07:19 hmmmm fair enough 07:22 RealBadAngel earining a +1 by trust is also solid imho 07:22 RealBadAngel we should support each other 07:23 RealBadAngel frankly i do not understand those flame wars going on here recently 07:24 RealBadAngel brb, going out to buy a piece of pipe 07:24 RealBadAngel need to craft something in the kitchen :) 07:25 RealBadAngel when i will be back i will make a pr with more normal and heightmaps for mt game 07:25 est31 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3037/files#diff-2d01836e6c0329cf2b516efb9b407661R249 07:25 est31 hmmmm, why do we need absolute indices here? 07:26 hmmmm good question 07:26 est31 lua_istable should work with it in theory 07:27 est31 dunno bout the getstringfield_default, its minetest custom written 07:27 hmmmm yes 07:27 hmmmm it seems like that's okay too 07:27 hmmmm just to be safe i guess 07:27 RealBadAngel hmmmm, est31 what are your votes on "Mercury Rain" btw? 07:28 est31 can you try whether it works without the manual setting? 07:28 est31 err resolval* 07:28 hmmmm i dunno RBA 07:29 hmmmm adding music to the core? 07:29 hmmmm that's such a subgame thing 07:29 est31 my main concern too. 07:29 RealBadAngel games can have own music 07:29 RealBadAngel in the menu too 07:29 celeron55 isn't "origin" a bit too common keyword to be used for that functionality as essentially a hidden field? i mean, some definition might want to have a coordinate origin or something 07:29 est31 personally I like it, it also fits the main theme IMO, but perhaps more an mtgame thing. 07:30 est31 there we dont have the large file problem 07:30 RealBadAngel we are talkin now about main music title 07:30 hmmmm I dunno, perhaps 07:30 RealBadAngel 1,5mb is a joke not an argument 07:30 hmmmm are underscores reserved for special identifiers in lua or something? 07:30 RealBadAngel on my phone i do have monthly 75gbs limit... 07:30 hmmmm i can make it like 07:30 hmmmm _mod_origin 07:31 celeron55 well i think "mod_origin" would already be enough 07:31 est31 origin_mod? 07:33 hmmmm does anybody aside from RBA want music as part of the core? 07:34 hmmmm just curious 07:34 est31 this for example is something to ask in github 07:35 est31 the people in question might not be online 07:44 celeron55 by the way, is there any estimate about in what percentage of errors this reveals the mod being a problem compared to not having these changes? 07:45 hmmmm 100%, when you get LUA_ERRMEM or LUA_ERRERR 07:46 est31 3037 looks good 07:49 celeron55 i can't find issues other than the one i said 07:50 est31 (except ofc my mostly nitpicky comments) 07:50 est31 now, what about #3033 and #3034 07:50 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3033 -- Add count based unload limit for mapblocks by est31 07:50 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3034 -- Fix Lua PcgRandom by est31 07:51 hmmmm wait no that breaks it 07:52 hmmmm or does it 07:52 nrzkt hmmmm, RealBadAngel: i think adding music to game with a fallback to a core music could be good :) 07:52 hmmmm est31: does it pass the unit tests with that commit? 07:53 nrzkt if file games//mainmusic.ogg => play it, else play sounds/mainmusic.ogg ? 07:53 est31 hmmmm, pcgrandom doesnt have unit tests 07:53 est31 but I can try 07:53 hmmmm are you sure 07:55 hmmmm so if rng_max is 0xFFFFFFFF and bound is 4, then rng_max % bound == 3, 0xFFFFFFFF - 3 = 0xFFFFFFFC 07:55 kaeza I personally think that adding a 1.5M BINARY file to the repo is bad. maybe that should be made a separate DL? 07:55 hmmmm but 4 is a multiple of 0x100000000 07:56 hmmmm was PcgRandom::range() flawed to begin with? 07:56 hmmmm oh no, < 07:56 Calinou kaeza, we already have binary files in our main Git repo, it's no problem 07:56 est31 hmmmm, it was 07:56 hmmmm no, it's fine 07:56 Calinou this is not World of Padman, don't make it hard for people to listen to your music 07:56 est31 ::range(min, max) surely way 07:56 est31 was* 07:56 hmmmm how? 07:57 est31 see commit msg 07:57 est31 https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/fb108317376d966a2299790e65c29ca88123f08e 07:57 hmmmm all that other stuff is unnecessary 07:57 est31 it creates a crash if you call range(minimal value for s32, maximal value for s32) 07:57 celeron55 about #3033: what about making the limit depend on the view distance? 07:57 hmmmm yeah 07:57 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3033 -- Add count based unload limit for mapblocks by est31 07:57 est31 hmmmm, yes the actual fix is only for two lines 07:58 hmmmm please get rid of that other stuff 07:58 celeron55 i mean, 1000 is going to limit high view distances and there's no GUI setting for it 07:58 hmmmm not only is it unnecessary, but it breaks things 07:58 est31 celeron55, think about teleporting back and forth between house and mine 07:58 hmmmm and there are PcgRandom tests by the way, check out src/unittests/test_random.cpp 07:58 est31 hmmmm, it breaks nothing 07:58 hmmmm [03:55 AM] so if rng_max is 0xFFFFFFFF and bound is 4, then rng_max % bound == 3, 0xFFFFFFFF - 3 = 0xFFFFFFFC 07:58 celeron55 est31: think about that... why? 07:59 est31 celeron55, thats a common use case 07:59 est31 and it doesnt limit view range btw 07:59 est31 it only deletes unused blocks 07:59 hmmmm blocks distant from the player at a given time are not necessarily unused blocks 08:00 est31 unused blocks are blocks that we didnt use for rendering due to view range/view direction considerations 08:00 hmmmm this removes the least recently used blocks 08:00 celeron55 oh, if it doesn't affect used blocks then it's fine 08:00 hmmmm above the threshhold 08:00 celeron55 yes i know how the unused block thing works 08:00 celeron55 ...i should because i made it, lol 08:00 est31 :) 08:02 est31 so 0xFFFFFFFC is divideable through bound, no? 08:02 est31 thats all we require 08:02 hmmmm yes but 08:03 est31 a value which is as large as possible, and divideable through bound 08:03 hmmmm you're rejecting 4 values within the range now that you don't actually need to 08:03 est31 note, functionally the old implementation doesnt have problems 08:03 est31 but its a - hack 08:03 hmmmm how so 08:03 est31 and it is inconsistent 08:03 hmmmm if you reject values, that changes the output of the RNG because now next() is called a different number of times 08:03 est31 look ar the old assignment for threshold: - bound % bound 08:03 est31 at* 08:04 hmmmm and what of it? 08:04 est31 inconsistent in the sense that the comment doesnt match behaviour 08:04 est31 you write that you drop values above a threshold 08:04 est31 but you actually drop them below it 08:05 est31 other option: perhaps I only fix the comment? 08:05 hmmmm so why not change the comment instead of the code 08:05 est31 I've thought its clearer this way 08:05 est31 more understandable 08:05 hmmmm especially seeing as how changing the code modifies the output (not necessarily fairness, i think) of the rng 08:05 est31 thats an argument 08:06 hmmmm if you did ./bin/minetest --run-unittests there's a chance it might fail :) 08:06 est31 the buildbot usually does this 08:07 est31 and there is a green symbol 08:07 hmmmm are you sure it does 08:08 est31 well, I gonna add unittests for the old crash reason, and change only the comments 08:08 est31 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/util/travis/script.sh#L16 08:08 est31 hmmmm, ^ 08:08 hmmmm oh dear 08:09 celeron55 does that not exit 1 if the unit tests fail? 08:09 hmmmm ah okay, it abort()s 08:09 hmmmm i thought i might've changed it on accident 08:10 est31 https://travis-ci.org/minetest/minetest/jobs/75127489#L705 08:11 kahrl well, the unit tests probably don't call the RNG enough times to get a rejected value 08:11 hmmmm yeah it's probably a good idea to add a unit test for the crashing input 08:12 est31 the problems aren't rejected values here, the problem is when the range is so large that it creates an u32 overflow 08:12 hmmmm you might be confusing something 08:13 est31 ah 08:13 hmmmm we totally understand the cause of the crash 08:13 est31 ok 08:13 hmmmm that's not the concern 08:13 hmmmm that's fixed with two lines of code 08:13 est31 yea 08:14 est31 I don't even really know what happens with the "u32 threshhold = -bound % bound;" code 08:14 est31 I just suspect that the explanation "In our example, threshhold == 3 - (3 % 3) == 3, so reject 3, thus 08:14 est31 making the range 3 with no bias." is wrong 08:15 hmmmm i might've made a typo 08:17 RealBadAngel im back 08:18 rubenwardy hmmmm, I'd like dynamic atmospheric music, but not sure on mainmenu music 08:18 rubenwardy mainmenu music should follow ingame music 08:18 rubenwardy dynamic atmospheric music - changes depending on what the player does 08:19 rubenwardy client side ambient sounds would be cool, too 08:20 RealBadAngel rubenwardy, all that we already have 08:20 RealBadAngel we are talking now about lack of files for engine and the games in main menu 08:20 RealBadAngel see what my commit does 08:20 RealBadAngel it just adds missing media file 08:21 RealBadAngel and its fucking missing since a yr or something like that 08:21 rubenwardy We already have dynamic atmospheric music, that changes depending on whether the player is mining, or building etc? 08:21 RealBadAngel yup 08:22 RealBadAngel i guess you dont know all the aviable mods for mt just :P 08:22 rubenwardy what about client side ambient sounds (water, leaves, etc) 08:22 RealBadAngel its called ambient mod 08:22 rubenwardy slow 08:23 RealBadAngel you know why it can be called slow? 08:23 RealBadAngel because of c55's and others stating that sounds are too "heavy" 08:24 RealBadAngel since always sounds can be stored just client side 08:24 RealBadAngel and invoked from /sounds without a cache 08:24 RealBadAngel thats a general rule 08:25 RealBadAngel but it looks like (sounds like?) im the only one dev that have ears 08:25 rubenwardy I'm not talking about downloading the sounds, I'm talking about telling the client to play sounds 08:26 RealBadAngel write a better mod 08:26 rubenwardy testing the ambient mods now 08:29 est31 ok, updated the pr 08:29 est31 kahrl, does it look good? 08:29 RealBadAngel est31, yes or no please 08:30 est31 its best place is a custom subgame 08:30 rubenwardy The problems with the mod is that sounds just stop after you walk away from them, rather than fading out. When walking in water, the sound isn't proportional to speed. Non-essential effects like this should be done on the client side before waiting for server side reconciliation. 08:30 RealBadAngel est31, each game can have its own music still 08:30 rubenwardy I might write a test mod to develop an algorithm and an API though. 08:30 rubenwardy Minetest is for the deaf, I agree 08:31 RealBadAngel we are talking about ENGINE music score 08:31 RealBadAngel jesus, i wrote code to support that more than a yr ago 08:31 est31 well, we have clouds, they are quite heavy to render too 08:31 RealBadAngel are you really all DEAF? 08:31 est31 so music wont be heavier 08:32 RealBadAngel is that a +1? 08:33 est31 its a neutral, +0 08:33 RealBadAngel do me a favor please 08:34 RealBadAngel im figthin for the legend 08:34 est31 lets just vote on github, every dev can place +1 or -1, as they want 08:34 rubenwardy Please may I have a link to that music you were suggesting? Dark score or something? 08:34 RealBadAngel the title that we will be proud of having for 08:35 est31 rubenwardy, #3038 08:35 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3038 -- Add main menu music score - "Mercury Rain" by Skaven/FC by RealBadAngel 08:36 kahrl est31: sorry I didn't follow the discussion enough to see if hmmmm's concerns were addressed 08:36 est31 does it look good for you? 08:36 RealBadAngel kahrl, your vote? 08:36 est31 from my judgement, his concerns were addressed 08:36 est31 the change is a 4 liner now 08:37 est31 2 lines fix, 2 lines test 08:37 est31 #3034 08:37 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3034 -- Fix Lua PcgRandom by est31 08:37 RealBadAngel my change is ZERO liner 08:37 * RealBadAngel turns on speaker louder 08:38 est31 hmmm's concerns were around additional changes to the range(bound) method 08:39 est31 while I still don't see how it can have a different result than 0 for the threshold, but thats another bug, and not high prio. 08:39 kahrl est31: ok yeah, looks good to me 08:40 kahrl RealBadAngel: I think music should be a subgame thing, too 08:40 kahrl sorry ;) 08:41 RealBadAngel kahrl, each subgame can have its own music, are you aware of that? 08:41 kahrl yes 08:41 RealBadAngel so why you deny engine to have its own? 08:41 kahrl exactly because of that 08:42 RealBadAngel youre putting mt in a same league as minesweeper is 08:42 Amaz Where does the subgame music go? 08:42 kahrl minesweeper did not support subgames last time I checked, no? 08:43 RealBadAngel make a /sounds folder and put there main_menu.ogg 08:43 Amaz Thanks! 08:43 rubenwardy I like mercury rain, however it may be too metallic for some peoples ideas of Minetest 08:44 RealBadAngel its a matter of taste 08:44 RealBadAngel but one thing we do know 08:44 est31 celeron55's compromise is a good one 08:44 RealBadAngel this tune is about 20 yrs old 08:44 est31 lets put it out, if people like it, we can continue its use 08:44 RealBadAngel its made by the legendary composer 08:45 RealBadAngel and is the legend 08:45 est31 if people dont like it, we stop 08:45 RealBadAngel we wont get anything more legendary than this one 08:45 est31 and btw, does it really have to be 1.5 mb? 08:45 est31 can't it be compressed somehow? 08:45 RealBadAngel fuck 08:45 ThatGraemeGuy will there be an option to disable menu music for those who don't care for it? 08:45 RealBadAngel 1,5mb? 08:46 RealBadAngel who the fuck cares about 1,5mb???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 08:46 RealBadAngel are you insane? 08:46 celeron55 est31: if we want to test it without having the overhead of making a proper media repository now, i guess we could make a recommendation for packagers to package that track for the upcoming version 08:46 est31 good idea 08:47 est31 just try to convince blockmen xD 08:47 rubenwardy why can only sounds connected to objects can be looped 08:47 kahrl Please don't spam so many question marks. They drain my volume limit 08:47 rubenwardy do sounds not return an id to control them? 08:48 RealBadAngel i put them here on purpose 08:48 est31 haha kahrl you are at drosselkom ? 08:48 RealBadAngel 1,5 mb size is a joke 08:48 kahrl hehe no I switched off of it ;) 08:48 rubenwardy Bundle it with 0.4.13, count how many people complain 08:49 rubenwardy or 0.4.13-RC2, if it exists 08:49 celeron55 i'm starting to think testing it that way is a good idea 08:49 est31 can we make it download during the build process? 08:50 est31 if there --> dont do anything 08:50 est31 if not there --> download 08:50 est31 no additional dependencies like git annex needed 08:50 celeron55 does windows have a command line download utility? 08:50 RealBadAngel excuse me guys, what kind of connections are you using? 08:50 RealBadAngel dial up? 08:51 Calinou there are Windows ports of curl 08:51 Calinou and maybe even aria2 (has BitTorrent support) 08:51 kahrl I don't like adding this to the build 08:51 celeron55 RealBadAngel: the music track will probably have to be changed roughly once per release in the worst case, which makes up a lot in the long run 08:51 RealBadAngel your problems are just fun in days when listening to the music is just launching youtbe 08:51 kahrl it makes the build nondeterministic, what if the network is having problems? 08:52 celeron55 Calinou: pre-installed on the system, i mean 08:52 rubenwardy cmake? 08:52 RealBadAngel celeron55, thats what you think. you dont have any artistic taste. youre technican coder 08:52 rubenwardy or using CURL with C++? 08:52 rubenwardy bit low 08:52 est31 ah I remember now, I've heard debian crowd makes builds on offline machines 08:53 celeron55 kahrl: that's an issue, yes; altough many software does that these days 08:53 RealBadAngel celeron55, that was not an insult. its just my observation 08:53 est31 we have curl already, rubenwardy's idea is good too 08:54 est31 it can even be scripted from mainmenu lua if im not wrong 08:54 rubenwardy problem is downloading arbitary files from the internet at a subgames request 08:54 est31 its not a subgame here 08:54 est31 but engine 08:54 RealBadAngel hold on 08:54 rubenwardy wat 08:54 RealBadAngel engine and subgame can have own ones 08:55 RealBadAngel we are talkin now about missing media files for all the cases 08:55 RealBadAngel you have all missed the code for that 08:55 celeron55 i guess the cleanest option would probably be having a separate repo for engine media that the build system can utilize if it is downloaded into a subdirectory of the engine prior to building the engine - the use of which would be recommended but optional 08:55 RealBadAngel no wonder, it was yrs ago 08:56 RealBadAngel celeron55, that will effectively end up with incomplete builds 08:56 celeron55 then you could make functional builds of the engine without the bloated media repository if you want, and the media repository could be as big as we care to make it 08:57 kahrl RealBadAngel: I wouldn't call it incomplete if it is missing optional stuff 08:57 RealBadAngel celeron55, are you using a dial up or not? 08:57 RealBadAngel what is your connection, PLEASE 08:57 est31 we should have an unified setup for users 08:57 celeron55 RealBadAngel: you already have to build a game with the engine to make it useful; having an optional engine media repo is nothing compared to that 08:57 est31 RealBadAngel, this is not about connections 08:57 est31 this is about adding files permanently to the size 08:58 est31 if we change the music every release, and we had it from the beginning, we had a three times as large repo 08:58 RealBadAngel youre guys all serious about the size? 08:58 RealBadAngel i am adding a few megabytes for heightmaps 08:59 est31 thats inside minetest_game 08:59 RealBadAngel like 0.25 each one 08:59 RealBadAngel bullshit 08:59 RealBadAngel its not Z80 era 08:59 RealBadAngel i feel now like a moron 09:00 kilbith a side-note about bloated media, this commit has added 4 MB (!) of uneeded fonts already : https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/dceb9f7d6058785cf60d9dbcc8eecdcee1053412 09:00 RealBadAngel demanding nowadays game to have music 09:00 RealBadAngel what an idiot i am 09:00 RealBadAngel because folks wont be able to download 1,5mb 09:01 RealBadAngel i feel so sorry that i will hit a wall at least 1,5kk times 09:01 RealBadAngel starting now 09:01 rubenwardy also: sound reflection, refraction, absorbtion 09:01 rubenwardy I want sound to go dimmer if behind a wall 09:01 est31 hah, rubenwardy we dont do this for light already 09:01 rubenwardy I feel like working on this 09:01 RealBadAngel rubenwardy, are you sure u cant have this? 09:02 RealBadAngel theres an opensource lib that does it all 09:02 RealBadAngel but as usual we CANT have it merged 09:02 RealBadAngel jarheads 09:02 RealBadAngel :P 09:02 rubenwardy the suspense is killing me 09:02 rubenwardy opensparelib 09:02 celeron55 kilbith: i know of that and it is painful 09:02 celeron55 kilbith: i wasn't looking when that happened 09:02 rubenwardy it's fine to add dependencies, just as optional 09:03 Calinou why do we use bitmap fonts in 2015? :-) 09:03 est31 ^ 09:03 est31 my opinion to this too 09:03 kilbith i knew you were complaing about this, c55 09:03 kilbith complaining* 09:03 rubenwardy *openspatiallib 09:03 RealBadAngel Calinou, 2015 is too soon for a bitmap font. you have to wait till another century 09:03 rubenwardy What's the library you're thinking of called, RealBadAngel? 09:04 celeron55 we should have a check in CI that fails the build if it contains files larger than 100kB because they are just wrong 09:04 rubenwardy in Minetest yes 09:04 RealBadAngel celeron55, dont make yourself an idiot 09:04 rubenwardy imo it shouldn't provide too many resources, although: fallbacks 09:04 RealBadAngel we are already using files way larger 09:05 RealBadAngel youre just outdated 09:05 kilbith otherwise agreed, music should belongs to a subgame only 09:05 kilbith sorry RBA 09:05 celeron55 at this rate i'm starting to feel i have to fork minetest and restart the repo to make things sane in the long term 09:06 rubenwardy I have a friend with an 100 KBps connection 09:06 RealBadAngel they are living on Mars? 09:06 celeron55 and RBA won't be approved to be a developer on that repo 09:06 rubenwardy nope, rural England 09:06 RealBadAngel lol 09:06 kilbith you don't need to fork c55, it's your project 09:06 rubenwardy I have 12 Mbps on a good day 09:07 RealBadAngel nah, im going to make my own fork then 09:07 celeron55 kilbith: well, a fork is both a technical and a political term 09:07 rubenwardy don't be silly about it though 09:07 kilbith you do decide whatever you want under your own roof 09:07 RealBadAngel this way im saying goodbye to all of you guys 09:07 RealBadAngel that was the final limit 09:08 Calinou maybe RealBadAngel should fork Minetest, or start his own project 09:08 Calinou we have to care about the legacy 09:08 Calinou but maybe you don't 09:08 RealBadAngel i was testing you with the music 09:08 RealBadAngel waited for that for more than a year 09:09 RealBadAngel please somebody take away my push rights 09:09 RealBadAngel i dont want them 09:09 rubenwardy I think that you're being irrational, RealBadAngel. Yes we need music in Minetest, but it isn't important enough to quit over 09:09 RealBadAngel i am leaving 09:09 rubenwardy Also, I think ingame music over main menu music 09:09 celeron55 oh... well i certainly can 09:09 rubenwardy although main menu music is good 09:09 RealBadAngel do it 09:10 rubenwardy I'm working on an environmental sounds mod with LVM 09:11 RealBadAngel rubenwardy, im not irrational. i am consequent. i do have a goal. 09:12 RealBadAngel you all dont like my goals? so im leaving 09:12 rubenwardy I like your goals 09:12 RealBadAngel simple as that 09:12 rubenwardy Your commits aren't perfect, nobodys' are 09:12 kilbith we don't like *one* of your goals at least 09:13 Calinou this isn't an AAA game, we can't afford everyone to have a reliable high-speed connection 09:13 Calinou some of our players play on mobile networks 09:13 rubenwardy However ingame music should come before main menu music imo (but that shouldn't stop it) 09:13 celeron55 well i like the goal of having music in minetest, but the way you are trying to do it is technically wrong and would have long-term consequences that i do not want 09:13 celeron55 you aren't responsible for the long term consequences 09:13 celeron55 i am 09:13 rubenwardy git isn't meant for large files, really 09:13 kilbith also people may especially don't like black mailing and no-compromise spirit 09:13 rubenwardy Calinou: it should be possible to opt-out some how 09:14 rubenwardy main menu music is on Minetest download, not on server connect 09:14 Calinou have you looked at git-lfs? 09:14 rubenwardy Yeah, this is blackmail 09:14 est31 kilbith, good point 09:14 rubenwardy Calinou, isn't it paid for? 09:14 Calinou https://git-lfs.github.com/ 09:14 RealBadAngel Calinou, my phone limit is 75gbs, just rethink your arument 09:15 Calinou my SSD is 256 GB "only" and there's only 25 GB left... 09:15 Calinou I'd rather not have repositories grow too large 09:15 rubenwardy RealBadAngel, that's limit not speed 09:15 rubenwardy Calinou: it is just a few MB. But those do add up. 09:16 Calinou why don't we add music to minetest_game instead? 09:16 celeron55 Calinou: does there exist an open source production-ready git-lfs server? 09:16 celeron55 seems like only proprietary ones exist 09:16 celeron55 hmm gitlab maybe 09:16 Calinou oh, github.com doesn't support it "yet" 09:17 Calinou they say it's coming soon, but has been for 6 months 09:17 celeron55 wait no gitlab is paid 09:17 RealBadAngel Calinou, games can add the scores too 09:17 est31 gitlab is free no? 09:17 RealBadAngel each game can 09:17 est31 as in beer and as in freedom 09:17 Calinou GitLab CE is gratis and libre, GitLab.com is just gratis 09:17 Calinou (it runs an hybrid CE-EE installation) 09:18 RealBadAngel anyway its not anylonger my concern 09:18 est31 we can ask github for early access 09:18 RealBadAngel i will credit all you guys in my releases 09:18 est31 months ago they asked me every time I've logged in 09:18 RealBadAngel but im going different way 09:19 RealBadAngel i want the game to shine and rock 09:19 RealBadAngel and i will do that 09:20 RealBadAngel celeron55 can stick to intel 945 and dial up 09:20 celeron55 i simply don't understand why you couldn't implement a way for the main menu to play menu music from subgames 09:20 RealBadAngel i wont 09:20 RealBadAngel rotfl 09:20 celeron55 it would be clean and very functional 09:20 celeron55 everyone would like it 09:20 RealBadAngel it is implemented you fool 09:20 est31 there is one AFAIK already 09:20 RealBadAngel since a yr 09:20 RealBadAngel or even more 09:21 celeron55 ...umm... why are we discussing this at all then? 09:21 RealBadAngel youre showing yourself as a dumb 09:21 celeron55 this just got much weirder 09:21 rubenwardy RealBadAngel, what sound library were you talking about? 09:21 RealBadAngel you dont know even what code allows 09:21 RealBadAngel i am adding now just missing media files 09:21 RealBadAngel code is here 09:21 RealBadAngel for core and the subgames 09:22 RealBadAngel youre just making yourself a laughing figure celeron55 09:22 RealBadAngel sorry 09:22 RealBadAngel you keep saying no just to say no 09:22 est31 RealBadAngel, why is it so important to be in the engine? 09:23 celeron55 when has main menu music provided by subgames been implemented and where is it documented? 09:23 est31 it can me in mtgame too 09:23 celeron55 i can't find it 09:23 RealBadAngel beacuse players do have ears? 09:23 kahrl why do I have the feeling that RBA wanted to leave anyway and needed an excuse to do so 09:23 RealBadAngel its pretty common for earhtlings too 09:23 RealBadAngel if you dont have ears? i just can say im sorry to HEAR that 09:24 rubenwardy I think everyone just needs to calm down :P 09:24 RealBadAngel kahrl, oh rly? 09:24 RealBadAngel one yr of trying to push a legend into core is not enough? 09:25 RealBadAngel whatever 09:25 celeron55 this is ridiculous, all i have been asking for the past 10 minutes has been information and RBA is just raging 09:25 RealBadAngel i wont make proller mistakes 09:25 kilbith i don't think we cares who's the one who made the music 09:26 RealBadAngel its not really important. but that could be our added value 09:26 est31 celeron55, I think its core.sound_play("main_menu", true) in builtin/mainmenu/init.lua 09:26 est31 added by commit c3984569 09:26 est31 by sapier 09:26 RealBadAngel having legendary music score for our main title 09:27 RealBadAngel but others do piss on the scores at all 09:28 RealBadAngel demoscene therm doesnt mean anything for youngsters like celeron55 or hmmm 09:28 celeron55 est31: but... no game is loaded at that point, so it won't play anything from any subgame 09:28 RealBadAngel theyere just techicans, not the artists 09:28 RealBadAngel they will always care more bout naming or tabs 09:28 RealBadAngel not the content 09:29 RealBadAngel under such leaders game will die 09:29 celeron55 est31: i think i might feel like implementing this then 09:29 RealBadAngel being perfect eventually 09:29 est31 ok celeron55 09:30 est31 RealBadAngel, are you really sure it is already implemented for subgames? 09:30 RealBadAngel yes 09:30 RealBadAngel each game can support own music 09:31 RealBadAngel i dont remember anybody changing that code 09:31 RealBadAngel it was designed so on PilzAdam's request 09:33 Amaz RBA, it doesn't seem to work for me... I followed the instructions you gave me above, but nothing plays in the menu... 09:33 Amaz However, a sounds folder in .minetest works fine. 09:34 RealBadAngel you should make also next /sounds folder in your game folder 09:35 RealBadAngel we do miss such folders yet 09:35 est31 pushing #3034 then 09:35 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3034 -- Fix Lua PcgRandom by est31 09:35 Amaz The structure is like this /sounds/main_menu.ogg 09:35 RealBadAngel but engine checks for that 09:36 RealBadAngel lemme check that again, this code is really yrs old 09:36 RealBadAngel hold on 09:37 celeron55 RealBadAngel: what you said is not true; playing subgame sounds in the menu has never been supported 09:38 RealBadAngel celeron55, please gimme a few minutes, testing that 09:38 RealBadAngel i surely coded that feature 09:39 celeron55 i went through the related parts in version control history and what you are describing is nowhere to be found 09:39 RealBadAngel im just not sure if it was merged 09:39 est31 there is #1651 09:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1651 -- Menu music (WIP) by RealBadAngel 09:40 celeron55 oh 09:40 celeron55 yes, are you referring to that? 09:40 RealBadAngel a sec 09:41 RealBadAngel need to reboot. brb 09:43 celeron55 that's not even bad, given that the ogg file is removed 09:43 TBC_x Why not use midi for some sounds? 09:43 celeron55 altough it breaks some functionality in guiEngine.cpp which should be fixed before that is merged, if it will be 09:48 est31 #3039 09:48 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3039 -- Is the threshold in PcgRandom::range(bound) doing its job? 09:54 celeron55 TBC_x: it's not really a modern way of doing things and could put players and developer off; also platform support might suck or it would involve a big library and a big sound library 09:55 kahrl est31: bound is unsigned in PcgRandom but signed in your test 09:56 rubenwardy how to credit enough git user? I need their email address, iirc there's something like username@github.com 09:57 est31 ah I see 09:58 Amaz rubenwardy, do you mean @users.noreply.github.com ? 09:58 rubenwardy thanks 09:58 Amaz No problem. 10:01 RealBadAngel back 10:02 RealBadAngel celeron55, yes, the code for subgames was not it 10:03 RealBadAngel but its trivial 10:04 RealBadAngel 18 september 2014.... 10:08 rubenwardy Amaz, didn't work: https://github.com/rubenwardy/minetest_web_panel/commits/master 10:09 RealBadAngel not a week for the commit to be exactly 1 yrs old.... 10:10 rubenwardy september, not auguest 10:10 RealBadAngel ouch 10:18 kilbith hey wtf 10:18 kilbith RBA is no longer core-dev ?? 10:18 kilbith https://github.com/orgs/minetest/people 10:20 est31 he resigned 10:20 rubenwardy kilbith, read the logs 10:20 rubenwardy Over main menu music 10:20 est31 sadly :/ 10:20 kilbith i thought it was just a wild reaction 10:20 est31 me too 10:20 kilbith nothing serious 10:21 kilbith RBA, don't behave like a kid doing a tantrum in a supermarket 10:21 kilbith you're more valuable than that 10:21 est31 ^ 10:22 Amaz ^ 10:37 RealBadAngel yes i have gived up 10:37 RealBadAngel but not with the project at all 10:37 RealBadAngel i have refused to work with stubborns and deaf folks like c55 10:38 est31 Do you want to code simple shaders? 10:38 RealBadAngel fork me :P 10:38 est31 just make sure to not change the license 10:38 RealBadAngel i know what i should code next 10:38 kilbith those stubborns obstruct your leaks and improve your code... 10:39 RealBadAngel i said "i wont follow prollers way" 10:39 RealBadAngel sure 10:39 RealBadAngel those stubborns could be able to code something working like this in the first place 10:39 RealBadAngel but they are not able to 10:40 kilbith be sure of what you're doing 10:40 RealBadAngel only thing is that can look for leaks 10:40 RealBadAngel and delete too much 10:40 kilbith you may not have quality-reviews in your fork 10:40 RealBadAngel and break funcionality 10:40 RealBadAngel im over 40yrs old, was a demoscene coder at age of 16 10:41 RealBadAngel i dont need reviews 10:41 RealBadAngel what counts is the effect 10:41 rubenwardy lol 10:41 rubenwardy it may be buggy and can only be run for a few hours, but look at these screenshots! 10:42 RealBadAngel if i made a leak, im sorry, i will fix that 10:42 est31 or require 100% CPU 10:42 est31 but on intel, its only 60%! 10:42 RealBadAngel ha ha ha 10:42 RealBadAngel trash that lib 10:42 RealBadAngel im not responisble for cores usage 10:43 RealBadAngel some1 hired jthread and is living without problems 10:43 RealBadAngel because its not visible :P 10:44 RealBadAngel funny thing is that it works ok with an intel and nvidia 10:44 RealBadAngel i suggest checking bank accounts because of that :P 10:45 RealBadAngel who knows how much c55 gets for the game working ok only with that hw 10:47 RealBadAngel nvm 10:48 RealBadAngel celeron55, shall i close my PR's now? 10:48 rubenwardy why? 10:49 celeron55 of course not 10:52 celeron55 if you aren't a core developer, you have all the rights to be a contributor like anyone else 10:55 Taoki Ugh... RBA is not a core dev any more? Great >_> 10:56 Taoki He's one of the best devs around. Not that others aren't good of course, just my opinion. 10:56 kilbith RBA, also are you able to manage a website/community ? 10:56 Taoki RealBadAngel: Really hope you won't leave the project or anything, please. 10:59 RealBadAngel i did 10:59 RealBadAngel talk to the deaf guys 11:00 RealBadAngel blind ones would work propably too 11:00 RealBadAngel theyre making a joint fighter project, not a game :P 11:01 Taoki Really, don't *sigh* 11:01 Taoki Will you make a fork of your own at least?! 11:01 Taoki Seriously, you did some great features for this project. It's only hurting the community and project that you're leaving over an argue with other devs. 11:05 Taoki I agree with you and the way you do things BTW, and likely others as well. I know some devs want a different direction however. Not sure exactly what my opinion on main menu music is exactly... depends how its implemented, I personally think it should be done through Lua but the menu LUA API should be more flexible to allow it more easily. 11:06 nrzkt C++ is as flexible as Lua for the menu sounds, it's a single specific code. 11:06 Taoki RealBadAngel: Really though, please think about it. This is just hurting the project and community. People have gotten past arguments in dev teams this way... you and celeron55 can and should find some way to get along on things. Not right away but in the near future. 11:07 Taoki nrzkt: I generally like seeing as much as possible done Lua side. In this case I'd like menu music being triggered from Lua personally. But the menu Lua code needs to be flexible enough for that. 11:10 kaeza I don't understand what's the problem here. we have a framework to let games add their own menu BGM; we just don't want engine repo bloat 11:12 Taoki kaeza: I don't either. Only that RealBadAngel can't get along with celeron55 and other devs. Now a good part of the fate of this project is unknown to me. 11:13 Taoki I wonder if menu music is the only issue here. 11:13 RealBadAngel minetest will be free to take anything i wil code 11:13 RealBadAngel i wont make it a different license 11:13 Taoki RealBadAngel: So you're starting a fork of your own at least? 11:13 Taoki Like proller started Freeminer 11:14 ThatGraemeGuy this is hardly the first epic ragequit in the history of collaborative projects, and it damn sure won't be the last 11:15 Taoki ThatGraemeGuy: It still sucks. Minetest is one of the few FOSS projects lucky to have such activity and such a constant growth. Many have few developers and went down to only a few commits each year, with releases every 3 years. 11:16 * Taoki also finds it funny how this coincides with justin having left the opensim project today 11:17 kaeza RealBadAngel, did you bother to read? main menu code = yes, (relatively) big music file = no 11:17 ThatGraemeGuy have you seen the amount of inane, petty bickering that goes on via github comments? this will keep happening, people will keep joining and quitting, the world will surely survive to see another day 11:17 ThatGraemeGuy well eventually it won't, but it won't be as a result of all this soap opera bullshit 11:17 Taoki ThatGraemeGuy: Still harms a great project and slows down its progress. 11:17 kaeza and yes, 1.5M is big. think about what would happen if for X reason you have to replace the file 11:18 Taoki I personally think games should define their own menu music. BUT, the MineTest engine and builtin scripts need to make that easy. 11:18 Taoki I don't care about minetest_game as much, since it's clear that won't go too far. Mostly about the engine. And in this regard, I am a fan of leaving as much as possible Lua-side. But that's just me. 11:24 RealBadAngel kaeza, 1,5 mb is 3 or 4 normal maps 11:24 RealBadAngel it a fucking joke 11:25 kilbith you'll be forced to nuke your normalmaps files btw 11:25 RealBadAngel i saw yesterday a stick at food store 11:25 RealBadAngel 30gbs 11:25 kilbith because if the textures change, that makes the normalmaps incompatible 11:26 RealBadAngel costin as much as 10kg sack of potatoes 11:26 kilbith in fact i'm sure paramat will do that 11:27 RealBadAngel next one raisin the memory argument in front of me will get a smash with rotten banana 11:28 rubenwardy 1.5 MB isn't that much 11:28 RealBadAngel i dont want to be counted as deaf and blind guys among doing Minecraft clone 11:28 rubenwardy that's no the issue here 11:28 rubenwardy *not 11:29 Taoki RealBadAngel: Anyway, if you really must make a fork, I certainly will be very interested in it. If possible however, please try to make a pull request for normal Minetest for every major change you make. Also to keep up with all other changes and imp[rovements in core Minetest, there are many good and useful ones being done constantly. 11:29 RealBadAngel you can copy my code if you will ask for it 11:29 RealBadAngel but certainly i wont answer any c55 questions 11:29 RealBadAngel just because 11:30 Taoki RealBadAngel: Regarding menu music, I certainly do NOT think that a 1.5 MB music file is too big... I agree that part is silly. However: I agree that menu music should be a sub-game choice, and done in menu Lua. I prefer a lightweight engine as well in general. But of course it's up to you... just my own suggestion. 11:30 RealBadAngel c55 feel free to cook yourself in your own sauce 11:30 RealBadAngel and buildat :P 11:31 Taoki To be honest, I like the way MT keeps itself lightweight like that. The 1.5MB file thing did take it too far however. 11:31 RealBadAngel Taoki, c55 cannot allow 1,5mb at all 11:31 RealBadAngel hes too poor 11:31 Taoki I mean, as an idea. minetest_game is probably too simple to have menu music anyway. 11:32 Taoki Eh... no need to bash on him I think. He has his own opinions... I disagree with many myself though. 11:32 RealBadAngel is celeron55 finnish? 11:32 RealBadAngel i just wonder which place on earth 1,5mb is that much 11:33 RealBadAngel maybe we should all donate his goverment to let citizens use such big files 11:33 rubenwardy I disagree with Engine music. 1.5 MB isn't that much on it's own, but it adds up. 11:33 rubenwardy Also, no need to personal insults 11:33 rubenwardy *for 11:33 Taoki RealBadAngel: The main problem with large files is caching I believe. A few months ago, Minetest still took 5 entire minutes to connect to a server online, which was horrible. Perhaps that's a reason for such concerns? 11:33 RealBadAngel theyre not cached.... 11:33 Taoki Yeah, no need to call c55 names RBA. 11:33 rubenwardy Taoki, mainmenu 11:33 rubenwardy not on server connection 11:34 RealBadAngel theyre get from local first 11:34 rubenwardy but yeah, that applied to large files generally 11:34 Taoki Ah, yes... this is client side, sorry. 11:34 Taoki The caching issue doesn't count. 11:34 RealBadAngel even ambience mods can have all sounds files stored client side 11:34 rubenwardy along with networking changes, we need better resource sending 11:34 RealBadAngel without single need to send them 11:34 Taoki Yes, resource sending is problematic. 11:34 rubenwardy If I have 12 Mbps, why does Minetest take so long? 11:35 Taoki Yep, know that feeling 11:35 RealBadAngel sounds doesnt have to be sent 11:35 rubenwardy (well, discounting server upload) 11:35 RealBadAngel make a /sounds folder 11:35 rubenwardy RealBadAngel, they should do in order to be fully flexible 11:35 RealBadAngel put there main_menu.ogg 11:36 RealBadAngel if you want it to be sent then thats ok 11:36 RealBadAngel im saying they can be pre packaged 11:36 rubenwardy yeah 11:36 Taoki But anyway: As long asthe main menu music is triggered from Lua (coding this in C++ would be pointless and against the point), I agree we can certainly afford a main menu song. 11:36 RealBadAngel but thats your problem not mine anymore 11:36 est31 Taoki, the problem aren't large files 11:37 RealBadAngel sorry im busy adding missing textures for minetest game 11:37 est31 the problem are the tons of nodedefs, and the fact we load their data so inefficiently 11:37 RealBadAngel est31 that is also your problem 11:37 est31 part of it is thanks too irrlicht suckery 11:37 RealBadAngel bye bye ;) 11:37 rubenwardy Taoki, already is 11:37 est31 RealBadAngel, i didnt say its not my problem 11:38 kaeza teh fuck 11:38 est31 sad he's gone 11:38 rubenwardy ~seen Zeno` 11:38 ShadowBot rubenwardy: I saw Zeno` in #minetest-dev 4 days, 23 hours, 56 minutes, and 39 seconds ago saying "basically you spat the numbers to stdout and piped them to whatever the silly thing is called and it'd rate it" 11:38 rubenwardy est31, insult him, he'll read the logs and come back immediately 11:38 kilbith thinking that i gave him donations for continue his work.. 11:38 est31 hah lol, only idiots do that rubenwardy. 11:38 rubenwardy lol 11:39 est31 xD 11:39 rubenwardy I was going to ask Zeno` about the progress on Irrlicht abstraction 11:39 rubenwardy wait, can't we just switch to Antarctic pretty easily as it's an Irrlicht fork? 11:40 est31 we should, I guess 11:40 est31 but dunno if its generic enough 11:40 rubenwardy some things may need to be changes 11:40 est31 or just everything hacked to the use-case of STK 11:40 rubenwardy and features utilised 11:41 RealBadAngel celeron55, please also remove my name from credits tab 11:42 sfan5 you mean move it to "previous core devs" 11:42 est31 do you want to be listed on previous core devs section? 11:42 est31 or complete remove? 11:42 RealBadAngel i dont want to be counted as a random deaf dev 11:42 est31 previous deaf dev? 11:42 est31 :) 11:42 kilbith can't you just take 2-3 days for making such decision ? 11:42 est31 ^ 11:42 Taoki ^ 11:43 RealBadAngel music code was 1 yrs old 11:43 RealBadAngel i waited enough 11:43 Taoki RealBadAngel: I think you're taking decisions while being angry now. This is not helpful. I too suggest taking abreak for the time being, doing something else for a few hours and such. 11:43 RealBadAngel wanna live in stoneage? please, but without me 11:44 Taoki It would also be nice if you could at least stay on this channel... 11:44 RealBadAngel one fuckin YEAR is more than enough 11:44 RealBadAngel im tired of begging to make the game nicer 11:44 nrzkt RealBadAngel: bronze age, not stone age, please :D 11:44 RealBadAngel let c55 cook in own sauce 11:45 RealBadAngel im off, at last 11:45 * nrzkt hope this is a bearnaise 11:45 kaeza but my gfx card is from stone age :( 11:45 kilbith you're sounding just vindictive and punitive 11:45 kilbith that's all 11:45 RealBadAngel i do have rights to be so 11:45 RealBadAngel ive done a lot for this project 11:46 est31 highly respected 11:46 sfan5 why are all of you pushing to have him stay or having him rethink his decision 11:46 kilbith "i'm married to my wife since 30 years, so i have rights to rape her" 11:46 sfan5 trying to push him to do something we want won't make it any better 11:46 RealBadAngel im not rapin any1 11:46 sfan5 if he wants to resign, let him 11:47 est31 kilbith, your comparison is very very ugly 11:47 RealBadAngel maybe just c55 bandwith and ears ;) 11:47 rubenwardy Frankly I have had enough of this too 11:47 RealBadAngel c55 and others are blockin many things 11:47 Taoki RealBadAngel: I think all that me and others are saying is that you're very upset right now, legitimately or not. It's not healthy to take decisions in moods like this, because you can easily take wrong ones. 11:48 est31 sfan5, I never asked hin to rethink his descision 11:48 est31 him* 11:48 Taoki I really suggest taking a break, then thinking how to figure things out. 11:48 RealBadAngel we dont have circuits 11:48 sfan5 est31: i adressed "all of you" not you specificually 11:48 est31 just to do not in a rush 11:48 Taoki There are greater problems that got solved, in software development and not only. This will be too in some way. 11:49 RealBadAngel you will be granted to copy my solutions 11:49 RealBadAngel im not cutting my roots 11:50 Taoki I think it will be very important for both mainstream Minetest and your fork to continue sharing commits whenever possible 11:50 RealBadAngel but what i will get will be the freedom to decide 11:50 RealBadAngel i do have a consinstent vision how the game should look like 11:50 Taoki We all do, I do too 11:50 * VanessaE looks in 11:50 RealBadAngel since years im doing the code in that direction 11:51 est31 diversity is never bad 11:51 Taoki est31: true 11:51 Taoki RealBadAngel: Your shaders are one of the best things in that direction as well (likely not the only one) 11:51 RealBadAngel parallax code and heightmaps are the best example 11:51 Taoki Yep 11:51 Taoki I love Minetest a lot more thanks to these. 11:51 RealBadAngel thats one of the elements of my vision 11:52 RealBadAngel sadly, music is also an element of this 11:52 RealBadAngel and for those who say: play it in your music player? 11:52 RealBadAngel fuck off 11:53 RealBadAngel im not a kid 11:53 Taoki I don't think anyone would realistically suggest playing your menu music in a music player 11:53 est31 this is taste 11:53 RealBadAngel if you cannot aprreciate that the legend of the demoscene granted you rights for his music? 11:54 VanessaE I'm in favor of main menu music, even that tune that RBA refers to. I'm fairly familiar with the artist in question. 11:54 RealBadAngel youre just a bunch of lunatic morons 11:54 VanessaE and bickering over 1.5 MB is just stupid. 11:54 rubenwardy the circuit pull request had a few problems, and then went dead due to rebasing issued 11:54 est31 RealBadAngel, "random bunch of lunatics", please 11:54 Taoki RealBadAngel: You really need to calm down for the time being. This isn't helping anyone right now. 11:54 rubenwardy I can't see c55 blocking it 11:54 VanessaE this may not be a AAA game, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to MAKE it one. 11:54 RealBadAngel random bunch of deaf lunatics :P 11:55 * ThatGraemeGuy signs "lol" 11:55 RealBadAngel dont forget "farts" issue 11:56 Taoki I'm disappointed if you're going to start insulting everyone now. I agree with your points, but this is bad now. 11:56 RealBadAngel thats only one funny sound in minetest at all :P 11:56 VanessaE https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2974 11:56 RealBadAngel Taoki, rly? blockmen yesterday called all my work shit 11:56 rubenwardy #2974 11:56 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2974 -- Very fast repeating step sounds on entity collision 11:57 Taoki And he did bad too then. Everyone should try to be civil about such issues. 11:57 RealBadAngel i am still kind 11:57 rubenwardy Minetest does have a sound problem, but main menu music doesn't solve that 11:57 RealBadAngel what im doing is being sarcastic 11:58 RealBadAngel rubenwardy, no need, your ears are safe 11:58 Taoki You are insulting people directly now, by calling them lunatics for example. That's really bad, and I think you know better than that. That's why I think we seriously need to take a break for the time being. 11:58 RealBadAngel this century your ears wont be raped by any legend ;) 11:58 RealBadAngel Taoki, im one of the so called lunatics 11:58 rubenwardy you're features are nice and your work is nice, however it tends to add memory leaks. 11:59 RealBadAngel see credits tab 11:59 rubenwardy "shit" is a bit of an exageration 11:59 est31 Taoki, its a reference to a sentence on the minetest.net website 11:59 Taoki Seriously... I don't want to start throwing critiques around myself now. But if there's one thing that always made me feel uneasy, for the years I've been around here, is the way many of the core developers like to... express themselves to put it lightly. 11:59 RealBadAngel and shit is a reference to blockmen and hmmm 12:00 rubenwardy You need to take criticism better :P 12:00 Taoki I'm not saying this to imply that I think I am better myself. But although the code itself is good in my book, I do not get a feeling of professionalism here, compared to other projects. 12:00 VanessaE Taoki: I agree, and I'm getting sick of it too. 12:01 Taoki It's like the devs are grumpy people just waiting to get angry and jump at each other. 12:01 est31 I don't think terms should be avoided just because there is a stupid rule obstructing your feelings 12:01 est31 and people can often be very angry 12:01 VanessaE when you try your damnedest to do something good and someone just insults it, you are not inclined to finish it, let alone improve it further. 12:01 est31 but I try to not make it personal 12:02 Taoki In early days (long ago when I girst joined the project), I got more or less hateful remarks from celeron55 myself. I was also a bit put off by seeing some attitudes from PilzAdam or hmmm on occasion. Now RealBadAngel, which I think is one of the nicest devs and also did some of the best code, rages and insults people here too. 12:02 Taoki Seriously. If there's anything I think really sucks in this project, it's this. 12:03 rubenwardy true 12:03 Taoki Join a project like OpenSim, or even a shooter like Xonotic. Apart from some people, the devs are always nice and ready to help, many of them pretty professional in this line too. 12:03 rubenwardy we need marriage therapy 12:03 Taoki There isn't an atmosphere like this there. Mind you, users argue from time to time... it's still the internet after all. 12:04 Taoki The only people I spoke a bit with who I don't at all feel disappointed by currently, are VanessaE and OldCoder. Might be more I'm missing... others I didn't talk to enough to know. 12:07 Taoki RealBadAngel: Also, BTW. I'm in the credits tab too, and don't wish to be removed from it. Sorry if you also consider me a lunatic for that. 12:15 rubenwardy seriously, player:getpos()? 12:19 celeron55 sounds like the first two-worded object API method 8) 12:20 celeron55 from the first one of the nine commits each called "Scripting WIP" 12:22 celeron55 it's legendary by now 12:22 est31 ha lol 12:23 est31 back then features were developed in the master branch 12:23 celeron55 the day was 2011-11-12 and it was a glorious saturday 12:23 est31 instead of being perfected as pr 12:24 celeron55 that wasn't developed in the master branch; not even on github 12:24 celeron55 it was developed on a private repo that i hosted for myself 12:24 est31 when did minetest get published? 12:25 celeron55 do you mean minetest 0.4? 12:26 est31 ah you say you developed it on the private repo, then sent it to already existing github 12:27 Taoki est31: I believe the project was first posted around 2010. I think I found it about an year after it went public. 12:27 celeron55 0.3.0 was released on 2011-11-01 and 0.3.1 on 2011-11-09 12:28 sfan5 what about 0.2.x 12:28 Taoki I still remember those days. We didn't even have a realtime day / night cycle... there were 3 sky textures and lighting modes for day / dusk and dawn / night :) 12:28 sfan5 there were 0.2.x too 12:28 sfan5 was* 12:28 Taoki Nor sound. 12:29 celeron55 sfan5: they happened too but they aren't interesting in this context 12:31 celeron55 also fun fact: 0.0.2 and 0.2 were basically the same thing 12:31 celeron55 with bad luck we might be at 0.0.4 now, lol 12:31 sfan5 0.0.4.13 12:31 est31 hah 12:32 sfan5 "4th proof of concept" "13th revision" 12:32 sfan5 "does it actually work?" "no" 12:32 est31 lol 12:32 sfan5 thats what i think of when i see 0.0.4.13 12:33 est31 suggestions 12:33 est31 ? 12:34 celeron55 anyway if rubenwardy's point was that the naming is inconsistent, i guess get_pos should be supported :P 12:34 rubenwardy yeah 12:34 rubenwardy it definitely should 12:34 est31 question: before or after the feature freeze? 12:34 est31 I say after. 12:36 rubenwardy meh 12:36 rubenwardy better before so I can write my mods to use it 12:36 rubenwardy then again... 12:36 sfan5 not an important change which means after the freeze 12:36 rubenwardy okay 12:36 rubenwardy doesn't bother me that much 12:36 sfan5 "okay" 12:36 sfan5 thats my opinion, if everyone else thinks the other way then it will be before the freeze ends 12:39 celeron55 there's so little reason to care that i'm surprised anyone has any opinion about it 12:41 rubenwardy It's inconsistent and made me have to check the docs 12:42 rubenwardy Is it possible to use LuaVoxelManipulator to read nodes without starting mapgen? 12:57 kaeza what are you trying to do? 12:58 rubenwardy ambient sounds but better 12:58 rubenwardy ambient sounds has no concept of sound origin 12:59 kaeza but you either play sound to a player, or to a specific position, in which case it's useless to play a sound if there's no player around 12:59 rubenwardy I'm using it to prototype possible algorithms 13:00 rubenwardy the code scans around the player and plays sounds in locations 13:02 est31 you can use areastore perhaps 13:03 rubenwardy hmmm 13:03 rubenwardy that's a good idea 15:26 rubenwardy does Minetest not support 3D sounds? 15:26 rubenwardy minetest.sound_play(def.presence, { 15:26 rubenwardy pos = {x=x, y=y, z=z}, 15:26 rubenwardy gain = def.presence.gain, 15:26 rubenwardy max_hear_distance = SCAN_RANGE 15:26 rubenwardy }) 15:26 rubenwardy oops 15:26 rubenwardy oh well, when I move around that position it just plays the same sound from the same direction 15:27 Calinou is your sound file mono? 15:27 Calinou it must be, in order for it to be positional 15:28 rubenwardy 1 sec 15:31 rubenwardy importing into audacity gives two channels 15:32 rubenwardy however they appear to both be the same 15:32 Calinou then your sound isn't mono 15:32 Calinou make it so :) 15:32 rubenwardy fixed 15:33 rubenwardy that worked 15:59 rubenwardy wow 15:59 rubenwardy <rubenwardy> how to average a large body of water into a single source? 16:00 rubenwardy <rubenwardy> area store would be good, but there's the difficulty in populating it 16:00 rubenwardy <rubenwardy> as an inoptimal algorithm: for each water source which isn't part of an area, expand out until non water blocks are met then stop 16:00 rubenwardy <rubenwardy> https://github.com/rubenwardy/environment 20:50 paramat hi sfan5, please could you add your input to game#620 ? also see my last comment for possible changes 20:50 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/620 -- Flowers: Add sporeless mushrooms WIP by paramat 20:51 paramat argh just missed you again 20:52 paramat will get to work on tweaking that