| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:00 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> if the server ever actually go live/public and still supports 5.4 clients multicraft will be able to play on it :trollface: |
| 00:01 |
cheapie |
Something that actually works with Multicraft? :o |
| 00:01 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> the forum post is from before 5.4 released tho lol |
| 00:02 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> multicraft is like 6 versions behind now, kinda wish they would rebase |
| 00:02 |
cheapie |
I hope they don't TBH, I haven't found any other reliable way of detecting them aside from the ancient protocol version. |
| 00:02 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> tbh, if they had stopped at 5.3 or earlier they probably wouldnt have as much support as they do from mods, since alpha stuff causes a lot of people to drop pre 5.4 |
| 00:04 |
cheapie |
I mean I guess there's the "Multicraft users can't read" part, but that's what I'm trying to /avoid/ having to deal with, as opposed to something that can be easily detected. |
| 00:05 |
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| 00:05 |
cheapie |
Sometimes I wonder how much of that is /actually/ the users' fault and how much is Multicraft doing weird things like making buttons impossible to press. |
| 00:06 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> dont they have there own user agent iirc? |
| 00:06 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> requires you to patch your engine around the idiotic limitation, but thats easy to do |
| 00:06 |
ireallyhateirc |
my game is going to have anime-ish characters if anyone's interested but it will take 3 more years to finish and it's a psychological horror |
| 00:06 |
cheapie |
I don't really want to have to bring engine patches into the whole mess. |
| 00:07 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> its literally commenting out two lines of code |
| 00:07 |
erle |
wsor4035 i did, in fact, not know that by association, but *now that you mention it* it came to mind. |
| 00:07 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> also will allow you to block stock dragonfire |
| 00:08 |
cheapie |
What's the big deal with Dragonfire anyway? |
| 00:08 |
cheapie |
(like does it /actually/ do anything malicious, or just cheat?) |
| 00:08 |
erle |
cheapie griefers use modified clients because those have autokill or so. but because griefers are stupid and the devs of those HATE griefers, these clients send HEY I AM USING A HACKED CLIENT YOU MIGHT WANT TO BAN ME messages that a server can act on. |
| 00:09 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> just cheat, sometimes you can run into weirdness when players are runnning around past map limits flying, etc |
| 00:09 |
erle |
the griefers are, in general, too stupid to patch that out |
| 00:09 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> most of that stuff has gotten fixed over time |
| 00:09 |
cheapie |
So trackr's bizarre "patch" thing probably shouldn't be getting run on VE-C then, it sounds like |
| 00:09 |
erle |
cheapie *most* users of modified clients do not do that btw, i would suggest a behaviour-based solution rather |
| 00:10 |
erle |
like, with the better CSM API you can do stuff like “notice when players are AFK and suffocate them or build an obsidian cube where they will spawn when logged in or remove their supports so they fall to their deaths” |
| 00:10 |
erle |
which, incidentally, you can also do with vanilla client |
| 00:10 |
ireallyhateirc |
For now I have one still WIP character: https://files.catbox.moe/d6an1a.png |
| 00:10 |
erle |
griefers are generaly stupid though |
| 00:11 |
ireallyhateirc |
more than 2 months of work so far |
| 00:11 |
erle |
nodecore for example has the szutil xp mod that can grant privs based on xp |
| 00:11 |
erle |
so new players can't set things on fire |
| 00:11 |
cheapie |
erle: This really just sounds like cases of "automating things that can be done with a stock client and/or by hand anyway", not something to block Dragonfire from a creative server for |
| 00:11 |
erle |
no griefing problems if griefer is too stupid to do game actions to get to 2k xp or so |
| 00:12 |
erle |
cheapie oh yeah the main use for those clients is “turn stock into creative-but-you-have-to-have-the-materials” |
| 00:12 |
erle |
like, waspsaliva (coras client) has railbot, a CSM that makes rails from 0,0,0 to the map borders |
| 00:12 |
erle |
IIRC it autodetects lava and water and makes walls then |
| 00:12 |
erle |
and also leaves building materials along the way |
| 00:13 |
erle |
also IIRC dragonfire (lizzy's client) has spongebot, an anti-griefing script that places sponges in optimal pattern in case some asshole watercubes spawn |
| 00:13 |
erle |
griefers do this thing sometimes where they place water sources so that entire spawn is an aquarium |
| 00:14 |
erle |
among the custom structure build things, the most useful quality-of-life script i have seen so far is “place 1 of the node i have in hand on everything in reach that is of the same node” |
| 00:14 |
erle |
that way you can make foundations for your castle |
| 00:14 |
erle |
then grow the walls fast, as long as you have the materials |
| 00:14 |
erle |
and focus on decoration instead of making walls higher |
| 00:17 |
erle |
cheapie if you have never played on anarchy server, i can suggest to go to oysterity anarchy and build something at least 10k from spawn and not on the major axes (griefers are lazy) |
| 00:17 |
erle |
you might find random happenstances |
| 00:19 |
erle |
cheapie anyway, check out the szutil modpack if you run a server and don't know it, it's really neat: https://content.luanti.org/packages/Warr1024/szutilpack/ |
| 00:20 |
erle |
szutil_watch is also a very cute thing |
| 00:25 |
erle |
cheapie the question what is generally seen as “cheating” has different answers on whom you ask. are you familiar with the olofboost? |
| 00:25 |
erle |
for me “do you think the olofboost was a legit gameplay technique” is the litmus test for “can this person provide a definition of what cheating is”. |
| 00:28 |
cheapie |
erle: I am not |
| 00:30 |
erle |
cheapie in 2014, on a counterstrike map, one team that was losing did a leg-up technique (jumping on crouching players) to get to some balcony or so where you normally could not go and proceeded to win. |
| 00:31 |
erle |
cheapie so they could see over a wall and shoot from an angle and direction the other team did not anticipate |
| 00:31 |
cheapie |
That sounds like a game with an objective other than "have fun" |
| 00:31 |
erle |
it was a competitive first person shooter match |
| 00:32 |
erle |
now the interesting thing is: the map was changed afterwards, there is now a sign “geländer übersteigen verboten” (german for “do not go over the railing”) |
| 00:32 |
erle |
but also *some* people say that olofmeister (the player doing this) was cheating or exploiting things |
| 00:32 |
erle |
whereas *some* say it's legit, they had a technique the other team did not know |
| 00:32 |
erle |
they got from 13:2 losing to 13:16 winning |
| 00:33 |
erle |
the losing team complained, the winning team said that they had practiced this and knew the tactic for two months and obviously never opened a bug report for “you can stand on this spot and look over the wall with a sniper rifle” because it's a competitive advantage |
| 00:34 |
cheapie |
I'm not sure how that's even a bug |
| 00:34 |
erle |
yeah |
| 00:35 |
cheapie |
But I also don't play shooting games, so maybe there's some unwritten/cultural whatever I'm unaware of |
| 00:35 |
erle |
anyway, the organizer said to redo the match – officially because of something in the rules that it is forbidden to walk on transparent geometry … but it turned out the team that complained had done this *by accident* in the round just before |
| 00:36 |
erle |
the winning team was like “no, we are not playing againt, wtf” |
| 00:36 |
erle |
now, *i* think they were in the right and the organiser was stupid. they did something amazing and the map was fixed right afterwards. |
| 00:36 |
erle |
but i have met people who say this is unfair |
| 00:36 |
erle |
and it broadly tracks with “do people think you have to play games as designed or as you want to play them” |
| 00:37 |
erle |
i see “have a CSM that does /sethome when you are damaged” as a simple assistive technology. after all, some people type faster than others. but i know others see it as cheating. |
| 00:37 |
erle |
sorry, not /sethome |
| 00:37 |
erle |
just /home |
| 00:37 |
erle |
it's a server-side thing that tp's you to the point you set with /sethome |
| 00:37 |
[ |
erle: that sounds like an unintended feature, not a bug |
| 00:38 |
erle |
[ yeah, but the question is exactly whether using something in ways that are not intended is cheating/exploiting or not |
| 00:38 |
[ |
<cheapie> (like does it /actually/ do anything malicious, or just cheat?) |
| 00:38 |
[ |
the client doesn't cheat, the player chests |
| 00:38 |
[ |
*cheats |
| 00:38 |
[ |
the player can use dragonfire but choose not to cheat |
| 00:39 |
erle |
a luanti/minetest example: the code for growing kelp in mineclone2 was written for general fluids. a friend and me figured out that with a vanilla client we can make kelp grow in lava. thus we had renewable lava sources. |
| 00:39 |
erle |
because when kelp grows into flowing water, it turns it into a source block of that liquid |
| 00:39 |
cheapie |
That's more or less what I meant, but also... IMO there isn't really such a thing as cheating in creative mode, there /is/ griefing but that's a distinct thing |
| 00:39 |
erle |
yeah, griefing is way easier defined and way easier to handle |
| 00:40 |
erle |
take someone's stuff without their consent? modify their building? that player can decide if it is griefing. |
| 00:40 |
cheapie |
Like the objective is to have fun, the only thing "cheating" would even be able to do is make you have /more/ fun and that sounds like a good thing |
| 00:40 |
erle |
someone recently stole a water source from a base i had. sounds minor, but i used that water source to get down, because it was a sky base. |
| 00:41 |
erle |
stealing a water source from a farming base would have been much less disruptive. |
| 00:41 |
cheapie |
And most of the "cheats" are things you could do anyway, like... modifying your client to let you fly doesn't really do anything when you had fly privs anyway |
| 00:41 |
erle |
why anyone would tower up to that base only to steal a water source (and leave me some other blocks) i do not understand |
| 00:41 |
erle |
there was plenty of water nearby |
| 00:42 |
erle |
cheapie interestingly enough a lot of “anti-cheat” fly detection things are *really* bad with solid mobs |
| 00:42 |
erle |
or solid entities in general |
| 00:42 |
[ |
CSM restriction flags are an antifeature |
| 00:43 |
cheapie |
[: csm_restriction_flags are set to 0 on the server in question |
| 00:43 |
erle |
my best approach so far is “does someone have nothing that grants flying but is not accelerating downwards when nothing is nearby” |
| 00:43 |
cheapie |
anticheat is off too |
| 00:44 |
erle |
cheapie anticheat is kinda useful because of the speed limit |
| 00:44 |
erle |
i mean that anticheat |
| 00:44 |
erle |
the speed limit is funny, but it does prevent things getting ridiculous |
| 00:44 |
cheapie |
You can already go insanely fast, cheating isn't going to get you much more :P |
| 00:45 |
erle |
does going ludicrous speed not crash the server if two entities crash into each other or so? |
| 00:45 |
cheapie |
Physics override adjustable up to speed=5 combined with fast is... a lot |
| 00:45 |
cheapie |
Haven't had any crashes from it and that mod has been on there for years. |
| 00:45 |
[ |
erle: is that because they don't take solid mobs into account so they think you're flying if you're standing on a stack of solid mobs? |
| 00:45 |
erle |
speed=5 is often enough “my minecart goes off the rails and snaps to the next node” |
| 00:45 |
erle |
[ yeah stuff like that |
| 00:46 |
erle |
[ everyone *not* working on modified clients has a poor idea of what they actually do |
| 00:46 |
erle |
and btw, the flying thing is easy to do with just making the privilege checking function *always* return true or so |
| 00:46 |
cheapie |
Mostly unrelated, but I just came across this and found it funny: https://cheapiesystems.com/media/images/screenshot_20241206_184554.png |
| 00:47 |
cheapie |
"Velocity rent-a-car... like just the one car" |
| 00:47 |
erle |
there is no need for a sophisticated client with a better CSM API if you want to fly and noclip |
| 00:47 |
[ |
you don't need a modified client to fly without privs |
| 00:47 |
erle |
what wsor4035 mentioned, crashes and stuff … i actually appreciate these things, because they make the crashes more often |
| 00:47 |
[ |
just use eBPF or something to make your client think it has fly privs |
| 00:47 |
erle |
lmao |
| 00:47 |
erle |
so they get fixed |
| 00:48 |
erle |
for example, dropping an item way out of bounds used to crash games |
| 00:48 |
erle |
because entities don't live there long |
| 00:48 |
erle |
but there *are* other situations where you might spawn an entity and it might not live |
| 00:48 |
erle |
so fixing that fixes a bunch of rare crashes |
| 00:49 |
erle |
similarly, full CSM control makes it easy to automate player stuff |
| 00:49 |
erle |
for testing |
| 00:50 |
erle |
cheapie anyway, if you are not offended by the olofboost, we are on the same page. but people who say “*that* way of getting an edge is basically cheating” are not too fond of any kind of automation/CSM/scripting. |
| 00:51 |
erle |
besides, i have cheated *way* way more with vanilla clients, simply because the server cheated for me |
| 00:51 |
erle |
like, any code that handles inventories for example … any off-by-one error will either get you a dupe (you get more resources than you should) or an antidupe (you get less resources than you should) |
| 00:52 |
erle |
obviously a modified client can automate that … but given the exponential nature of “let me double the amount of items in this item stack”, it's not like you gain too much by that, unless you are stashing resources for a future in which you might need INT_MAX double chests full of obsidian |
| 00:53 |
erle |
cheapie so what servers are you administrating? |
| 00:54 |
erle |
wsor4035 thanks for pointing out the game. sadly it seems to have gone nowhere as of yet. do you know anything else about what hecktest is up to? |
| 00:54 |
cheapie |
erle: It's not actually my server (but the owners are MIA most of the time), but "VE Dreambuilder creative Server" |
| 00:55 |
cheapie |
(in the server list) |
| 00:55 |
erle |
cheapie you use any CSMs that i should know of? |
| 00:56 |
cheapie |
Just chat6 (which I really need to push my updates to...) |
| 00:56 |
erle |
what's that? |
| 00:56 |
erle |
sounds lewd lol |
| 00:57 |
cheapie |
https://cheapiesystems.com/git/chat6/ |
| 00:57 |
erle |
it reminds me of how oysterity anarchy has like “this is a dating server” to make fun of the “no dating” in the description of many servers |
| 00:57 |
erle |
oh nice |
| 00:57 |
cheapie |
Does things like coloring nicks in chat (same algorithm as HexChat, hence the name), and "sobers up" beerchat so I don't have to deal with it |
| 00:58 |
erle |
what is beerchat? |
| 00:58 |
cheapie |
Some crappy mod that the owners of the server insisted on, it adds extra chat channels that hardly anyone uses, messes with chat formatting, and occasionally breaks things and/or crashes |
| 00:59 |
[ |
how are you supposed to say when things happened if you can't date? |
| 00:59 |
cheapie |
IIRC last time I looked there was a grand total of three players that actually used it |
| 01:01 |
erle |
[ “no dating” is something you write in a description so that you can kickban people who start erotic roleplaying in public chat or ask “are you a girl?” in private message. i did not understand it for a long time, but i realized that it is just a non-offensive vague way to say “do this somewhere else”. |
| 01:02 |
erle |
i don't want any creeps in my virtual lego, thanks |
| 01:02 |
erle |
in fact, i do actually like that this kind of gaming is a way for people of all ages to just play the game |
| 01:03 |
erle |
like, in shooters people try to insult each other “are you 12 LMAO?” or so |
| 01:03 |
erle |
different culture |
| 01:05 |
erle |
i only care when someone is online next or if they can speak a language i speak |
| 01:06 |
erle |
cheapie i have seen an interesting use case for different chat channel automation in mindustry btw: auto-translation to a language you speak |
| 01:07 |
erle |
like, i joined a mindustry server once that was full of ukrainian players it seems |
| 01:07 |
erle |
and it auto translated stuff to client language (i think with original text in parentheses or so) |
| 01:08 |
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| 01:08 |
erle |
given that i collaborated with a player yesterday who only understood spanish and no english and i used deepl.com, i think this is a worthwhile thing (as long as it is opt-in) |
| 01:53 |
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swift110-mobile |
hey all |
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cheapie |
Dreambuilder in 3GiB of RAM still works just as badly as I remember :P |
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SwissalpS |
on pandorabox most players use beerchat, it doesn't crash - maybe the version used there is revised |
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