Time Nick Message 00:00 MTDiscord if the server ever actually go live/public and still supports 5.4 clients multicraft will be able to play on it :trollface: 00:01 cheapie Something that actually works with Multicraft? :o 00:01 MTDiscord the forum post is from before 5.4 released tho lol 00:02 MTDiscord multicraft is like 6 versions behind now, kinda wish they would rebase 00:02 cheapie I hope they don't TBH, I haven't found any other reliable way of detecting them aside from the ancient protocol version. 00:02 MTDiscord tbh, if they had stopped at 5.3 or earlier they probably wouldnt have as much support as they do from mods, since alpha stuff causes a lot of people to drop pre 5.4 00:04 cheapie I mean I guess there's the "Multicraft users can't read" part, but that's what I'm trying to /avoid/ having to deal with, as opposed to something that can be easily detected. 00:05 cheapie Sometimes I wonder how much of that is /actually/ the users' fault and how much is Multicraft doing weird things like making buttons impossible to press. 00:06 MTDiscord dont they have there own user agent iirc? 00:06 MTDiscord requires you to patch your engine around the idiotic limitation, but thats easy to do 00:06 ireallyhateirc my game is going to have anime-ish characters if anyone's interested but it will take 3 more years to finish and it's a psychological horror 00:06 cheapie I don't really want to have to bring engine patches into the whole mess. 00:07 MTDiscord its literally commenting out two lines of code 00:07 erle wsor4035 i did, in fact, not know that by association, but *now that you mention it* it came to mind. 00:07 MTDiscord also will allow you to block stock dragonfire 00:08 cheapie What's the big deal with Dragonfire anyway? 00:08 cheapie (like does it /actually/ do anything malicious, or just cheat?) 00:08 erle cheapie griefers use modified clients because those have autokill or so. but because griefers are stupid and the devs of those HATE griefers, these clients send HEY I AM USING A HACKED CLIENT YOU MIGHT WANT TO BAN ME messages that a server can act on. 00:09 MTDiscord just cheat, sometimes you can run into weirdness when players are runnning around past map limits flying, etc 00:09 erle the griefers are, in general, too stupid to patch that out 00:09 MTDiscord most of that stuff has gotten fixed over time 00:09 cheapie So trackr's bizarre "patch" thing probably shouldn't be getting run on VE-C then, it sounds like 00:09 erle cheapie *most* users of modified clients do not do that btw, i would suggest a behaviour-based solution rather 00:10 erle like, with the better CSM API you can do stuff like “notice when players are AFK and suffocate them or build an obsidian cube where they will spawn when logged in or remove their supports so they fall to their deaths” 00:10 erle which, incidentally, you can also do with vanilla client 00:10 ireallyhateirc For now I have one still WIP character: https://files.catbox.moe/d6an1a.png 00:10 erle griefers are generaly stupid though 00:11 ireallyhateirc more than 2 months of work so far 00:11 erle nodecore for example has the szutil xp mod that can grant privs based on xp 00:11 erle so new players can't set things on fire 00:11 cheapie erle: This really just sounds like cases of "automating things that can be done with a stock client and/or by hand anyway", not something to block Dragonfire from a creative server for 00:11 erle no griefing problems if griefer is too stupid to do game actions to get to 2k xp or so 00:12 erle cheapie oh yeah the main use for those clients is “turn stock into creative-but-you-have-to-have-the-materials” 00:12 erle like, waspsaliva (coras client) has railbot, a CSM that makes rails from 0,0,0 to the map borders 00:12 erle IIRC it autodetects lava and water and makes walls then 00:12 erle and also leaves building materials along the way 00:13 erle also IIRC dragonfire (lizzy's client) has spongebot, an anti-griefing script that places sponges in optimal pattern in case some asshole watercubes spawn 00:13 erle griefers do this thing sometimes where they place water sources so that entire spawn is an aquarium 00:14 erle among the custom structure build things, the most useful quality-of-life script i have seen so far is “place 1 of the node i have in hand on everything in reach that is of the same node” 00:14 erle that way you can make foundations for your castle 00:14 erle then grow the walls fast, as long as you have the materials 00:14 erle and focus on decoration instead of making walls higher 00:17 erle cheapie if you have never played on anarchy server, i can suggest to go to oysterity anarchy and build something at least 10k from spawn and not on the major axes (griefers are lazy) 00:17 erle you might find random happenstances 00:19 erle cheapie anyway, check out the szutil modpack if you run a server and don't know it, it's really neat: https://content.luanti.org/packages/Warr1024/szutilpack/ 00:20 erle szutil_watch is also a very cute thing 00:25 erle cheapie the question what is generally seen as “cheating” has different answers on whom you ask. are you familiar with the olofboost? 00:25 erle for me “do you think the olofboost was a legit gameplay technique” is the litmus test for “can this person provide a definition of what cheating is”. 00:28 cheapie erle: I am not 00:30 erle cheapie in 2014, on a counterstrike map, one team that was losing did a leg-up technique (jumping on crouching players) to get to some balcony or so where you normally could not go and proceeded to win. 00:31 erle cheapie so they could see over a wall and shoot from an angle and direction the other team did not anticipate 00:31 cheapie That sounds like a game with an objective other than "have fun" 00:31 erle it was a competitive first person shooter match 00:32 erle now the interesting thing is: the map was changed afterwards, there is now a sign “geländer übersteigen verboten” (german for “do not go over the railing”) 00:32 erle but also *some* people say that olofmeister (the player doing this) was cheating or exploiting things 00:32 erle whereas *some* say it's legit, they had a technique the other team did not know 00:32 erle they got from 13:2 losing to 13:16 winning 00:33 erle the losing team complained, the winning team said that they had practiced this and knew the tactic for two months and obviously never opened a bug report for “you can stand on this spot and look over the wall with a sniper rifle” because it's a competitive advantage 00:34 cheapie I'm not sure how that's even a bug 00:34 erle yeah 00:35 cheapie But I also don't play shooting games, so maybe there's some unwritten/cultural whatever I'm unaware of 00:35 erle anyway, the organizer said to redo the match – officially because of something in the rules that it is forbidden to walk on transparent geometry … but it turned out the team that complained had done this *by accident* in the round just before 00:36 erle the winning team was like “no, we are not playing againt, wtf” 00:36 erle now, *i* think they were in the right and the organiser was stupid. they did something amazing and the map was fixed right afterwards. 00:36 erle but i have met people who say this is unfair 00:36 erle and it broadly tracks with “do people think you have to play games as designed or as you want to play them” 00:37 erle i see “have a CSM that does /sethome when you are damaged” as a simple assistive technology. after all, some people type faster than others. but i know others see it as cheating. 00:37 erle sorry, not /sethome 00:37 erle just /home 00:37 erle it's a server-side thing that tp's you to the point you set with /sethome 00:37 [ erle: that sounds like an unintended feature, not a bug 00:38 erle [ yeah, but the question is exactly whether using something in ways that are not intended is cheating/exploiting or not 00:38 [ (like does it /actually/ do anything malicious, or just cheat?) 00:38 [ the client doesn't cheat, the player chests 00:38 [ *cheats 00:38 [ the player can use dragonfire but choose not to cheat 00:39 erle a luanti/minetest example: the code for growing kelp in mineclone2 was written for general fluids. a friend and me figured out that with a vanilla client we can make kelp grow in lava. thus we had renewable lava sources. 00:39 erle because when kelp grows into flowing water, it turns it into a source block of that liquid 00:39 cheapie That's more or less what I meant, but also... IMO there isn't really such a thing as cheating in creative mode, there /is/ griefing but that's a distinct thing 00:39 erle yeah, griefing is way easier defined and way easier to handle 00:40 erle take someone's stuff without their consent? modify their building? that player can decide if it is griefing. 00:40 cheapie Like the objective is to have fun, the only thing "cheating" would even be able to do is make you have /more/ fun and that sounds like a good thing 00:40 erle someone recently stole a water source from a base i had. sounds minor, but i used that water source to get down, because it was a sky base. 00:41 erle stealing a water source from a farming base would have been much less disruptive. 00:41 cheapie And most of the "cheats" are things you could do anyway, like... modifying your client to let you fly doesn't really do anything when you had fly privs anyway 00:41 erle why anyone would tower up to that base only to steal a water source (and leave me some other blocks) i do not understand 00:41 erle there was plenty of water nearby 00:42 erle cheapie interestingly enough a lot of “anti-cheat” fly detection things are *really* bad with solid mobs 00:42 erle or solid entities in general 00:42 [ CSM restriction flags are an antifeature 00:43 cheapie [: csm_restriction_flags are set to 0 on the server in question 00:43 erle my best approach so far is “does someone have nothing that grants flying but is not accelerating downwards when nothing is nearby” 00:43 cheapie anticheat is off too 00:44 erle cheapie anticheat is kinda useful because of the speed limit 00:44 erle i mean that anticheat 00:44 erle the speed limit is funny, but it does prevent things getting ridiculous 00:44 cheapie You can already go insanely fast, cheating isn't going to get you much more :P 00:45 erle does going ludicrous speed not crash the server if two entities crash into each other or so? 00:45 cheapie Physics override adjustable up to speed=5 combined with fast is... a lot 00:45 cheapie Haven't had any crashes from it and that mod has been on there for years. 00:45 [ erle: is that because they don't take solid mobs into account so they think you're flying if you're standing on a stack of solid mobs? 00:45 erle speed=5 is often enough “my minecart goes off the rails and snaps to the next node” 00:45 erle [ yeah stuff like that 00:46 erle [ everyone *not* working on modified clients has a poor idea of what they actually do 00:46 erle and btw, the flying thing is easy to do with just making the privilege checking function *always* return true or so 00:46 cheapie Mostly unrelated, but I just came across this and found it funny: https://cheapiesystems.com/media/images/screenshot_20241206_184554.png 00:47 cheapie "Velocity rent-a-car... like just the one car" 00:47 erle there is no need for a sophisticated client with a better CSM API if you want to fly and noclip 00:47 [ you don't need a modified client to fly without privs 00:47 erle what wsor4035 mentioned, crashes and stuff … i actually appreciate these things, because they make the crashes more often 00:47 [ just use eBPF or something to make your client think it has fly privs 00:47 erle lmao 00:47 erle so they get fixed 00:48 erle for example, dropping an item way out of bounds used to crash games 00:48 erle because entities don't live there long 00:48 erle but there *are* other situations where you might spawn an entity and it might not live 00:48 erle so fixing that fixes a bunch of rare crashes 00:49 erle similarly, full CSM control makes it easy to automate player stuff 00:49 erle for testing 00:50 erle cheapie anyway, if you are not offended by the olofboost, we are on the same page. but people who say “*that* way of getting an edge is basically cheating” are not too fond of any kind of automation/CSM/scripting. 00:51 erle besides, i have cheated *way* way more with vanilla clients, simply because the server cheated for me 00:51 erle like, any code that handles inventories for example … any off-by-one error will either get you a dupe (you get more resources than you should) or an antidupe (you get less resources than you should) 00:52 erle obviously a modified client can automate that … but given the exponential nature of “let me double the amount of items in this item stack”, it's not like you gain too much by that, unless you are stashing resources for a future in which you might need INT_MAX double chests full of obsidian 00:53 erle cheapie so what servers are you administrating? 00:54 erle wsor4035 thanks for pointing out the game. sadly it seems to have gone nowhere as of yet. do you know anything else about what hecktest is up to? 00:54 cheapie erle: It's not actually my server (but the owners are MIA most of the time), but "VE Dreambuilder creative Server" 00:55 cheapie (in the server list) 00:55 erle cheapie you use any CSMs that i should know of? 00:56 cheapie Just chat6 (which I really need to push my updates to...) 00:56 erle what's that? 00:56 erle sounds lewd lol 00:57 cheapie https://cheapiesystems.com/git/chat6/ 00:57 erle it reminds me of how oysterity anarchy has like “this is a dating server” to make fun of the “no dating” in the description of many servers 00:57 erle oh nice 00:57 cheapie Does things like coloring nicks in chat (same algorithm as HexChat, hence the name), and "sobers up" beerchat so I don't have to deal with it 00:58 erle what is beerchat? 00:58 cheapie Some crappy mod that the owners of the server insisted on, it adds extra chat channels that hardly anyone uses, messes with chat formatting, and occasionally breaks things and/or crashes 00:59 [ how are you supposed to say when things happened if you can't date? 00:59 cheapie IIRC last time I looked there was a grand total of three players that actually used it 01:01 erle [ “no dating” is something you write in a description so that you can kickban people who start erotic roleplaying in public chat or ask “are you a girl?” in private message. i did not understand it for a long time, but i realized that it is just a non-offensive vague way to say “do this somewhere else”. 01:02 erle i don't want any creeps in my virtual lego, thanks 01:02 erle in fact, i do actually like that this kind of gaming is a way for people of all ages to just play the game 01:03 erle like, in shooters people try to insult each other “are you 12 LMAO?” or so 01:03 erle different culture 01:05 erle i only care when someone is online next or if they can speak a language i speak 01:06 erle cheapie i have seen an interesting use case for different chat channel automation in mindustry btw: auto-translation to a language you speak 01:07 erle like, i joined a mindustry server once that was full of ukrainian players it seems 01:07 erle and it auto translated stuff to client language (i think with original text in parentheses or so) 01:08 erle given that i collaborated with a player yesterday who only understood spanish and no english and i used deepl.com, i think this is a worthwhile thing (as long as it is opt-in) 02:13 swift110-mobile hey all 04:56 cheapie Dreambuilder in 3GiB of RAM still works just as badly as I remember :P 07:45 SwissalpS on pandorabox most players use beerchat, it doesn't crash - maybe the version used there is revised