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BuckarooBanzai |
cheapie, fyi: the blockexchange has a `/bx_emerge` command that emerges the area asynchronously, just in case you want to mapgen your entire world :D |
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markverb1 |
hello |
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17:22 |
sfan5 |
<cheapie> Still running fine though, aside from the usual "Couldn't grab block we just generated" message |
17:22 |
sfan5 |
I'm still missing a reproducer for that |
17:22 |
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17:23 |
MTDiscord |
<arishua> What do you think about the transfer to OpenGL3, if this is planned, then in what version of Minetest? |
17:28 |
sfan5 |
short answer: yes |
17:28 |
sfan5 |
long answer: what change do you expect to see when we switch to OpenGL 3? |
17:29 |
MTDiscord |
<arishua> Simple adding new vertex attributes |
17:31 |
sfan5 |
yeah that's become possible |
17:31 |
sfan5 |
that'd* |
17:32 |
MTDiscord |
<arishua> Now i see some warnings with frame buffers every millisecond, but other than that it works well |
17:32 |
MTDiscord |
<arishua> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1260649955236777984/image.png?ex=66901743&is=668ec5c3&hm=1de1660d18c0ae29ac5fd463018ab65f1ecda432e7ebc5a1ea3c841a4d58496f& |
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21:10 |
nekobit |
wait, it isnt opengl 3? |
21:11 |
nekobit |
is everything immediate mode? |
21:11 |
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21:41 |
MTDiscord |
<arishua> It is OpenGL3 |
21:41 |
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21:42 |
MTDiscord |
<arishua> Full of Irrlicht: GL warnings 😄 |
21:42 |
MTDiscord |
<arishua> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1260712900931092520/image.png?ex=669051e2&is=668f0062&hm=49f5cee0adada7d36ee95cfca371c90fb8da57d557aafb53e1ceb1f098b1fe09& |
21:43 |
MTDiscord |
<arishua> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1260713040655941632/image.png?ex=66905203&is=668f0083&hm=c61807d93d81b690aa44fa903fc3059879cfe23be3b1798f21f67d6ce81c3335& |
21:58 |
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22:08 |
Noisytoot |
dropping support for OpenGL 2.1 is a bad idea and would make minetest unusable for me |
22:09 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Released in 2006 |
22:10 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> You are running minetest on 18 year old hardware? |
22:13 |
Noisytoot |
I use a ThinkPad X200 with canoeboot. Newer Intel CPUs have no way to fully remove the ME. |
22:14 |
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22:14 |
ireallyhateirc |
Minetest runs on my StinkPad T60 from 2008 |
22:14 |
MTDiscord |
<arishua> You will can use Minetest, just old versions |
22:14 |
ireallyhateirc |
just needs undersampling of 5 and you can get 30 FPS |
22:15 |
Noisytoot |
Until protocol backwards compatibility is broken, or servers start using features not available in older versions |
22:16 |
MTDiscord |
<arishua> But we can just make a fork of MineTest with OpenGL3 and a normal name like MineProd, and leave MineTest for devices without OpenGL3 support |
22:17 |
Noisytoot |
Why not just stay on OpenGL 2.1, or add a new OpenGL 3 renderer without dropping the old one? |
22:19 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> If you keep maintaining certain features, it's going to get to the point where it takes like 30 minutes to compile the project |
22:23 |
MTDiscord |
<arishua> If you help Andrey01 add new vertex attribute for current OpenGL 2.1 implementation, Minetest maintain backward compatibility |
22:23 |
ROllerozxa |
if you don't have access to anything newer than OpenGL 2.1 in current year that's honestly your issue at that point. even the chromebook I bought out for a symbolical sum from my school and have now corebooted has OpenGL 4.0+ something, you *can* get ahold of something newer |
22:23 |
Noisytoot |
I don't think keeping OpenGL 2.1 support will have a very significant effect on compilation time. #ifdef exists if it really becomes an issue. |
22:24 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> code debt is always a thing |
22:24 |
Mantar |
the time to remove something like that IMO is when it finally breaks and nobody wants to fix it :D |
22:25 |
Noisytoot |
I don't know OpenGL so I can't do that |
22:26 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I'll see if I can get my great grandfather to maintain the opengl 2.1 implementation |
22:26 |
MTDiscord |
<arishua> Also, nobody can deny you host Minetest servers with compatible versions, some times ago that happened with MineCraft |
22:27 |
MTDiscord |
<arishua> Many players play on old version, hold servers, making mods |
22:31 |
Noisytoot |
It would mean that I wouldn't be able to play on servers that update to new, incompatible versions |
22:32 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Maybe you could just use your android phone to run the game unless it's running android 1.0 |
22:32 |
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22:33 |
cheapie |
sfan5: That message comes up whenever you do /emergeblocks at all, I'm puzzled how anyone has managed to /not/ reproduce it. |
22:35 |
MTDiscord |
<arishua> But you dont want new features, what is problem? |
22:35 |
cheapie |
jordan4ibanez: RPi 4 is hardly "18 year old hardware" |
22:35 |
MTDiscord |
<arishua> Just imagine that Minetest was forked |
22:38 |
Noisytoot |
The problem is playing on existing servers that do upgrade. Also, it's not that I don't want new features, it's that I don't want features that break backwards compatibility. |
22:38 |
ROllerozxa |
cheapie: RPi 4 supports up to OpenGL ES 3.2 |
22:38 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> cheapie: rpi 4 supports vulkan and es 3.2 lol |
22:38 |
cheapie |
Does MT actually work with OpenGL ES? It didn't last time I tried it, but that was a while back. |
22:38 |
ROllerozxa |
it does |
22:39 |
ROllerozxa |
you can build with it enabled on linux at least |
22:39 |
ROllerozxa |
and the new ogles2 driver shares codepaths with the modern opengl3 driver |
22:40 |
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22:41 |
MTDiscord |
<arishua> Okay, that looks like good reason for learn OpenGL and C++ for provide backward compatibility |
22:41 |
Noisytoot |
If OpenGL ES 2.0 support is kept maybe I could use that if I compiled irrlichtmt with support for that. If that's dropped then it won't run on my phone either (which runs postmarketOS and not android). |
22:41 |
ROllerozxa |
OpenGL ES 2.0 support isn't going anywhere afaik |
22:42 |
cheapie |
I suppose that brings MT's requirements down to "video card from about 2010 or newer" - really a game like this should probably be able to run on older than that, but MT's performance has been so bad for ages now that even hardware a decent amount newer is pretty much unusable, so... no big loss, I suppose. |
22:42 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Just opengl 2.1 because it's basically been around because of historical context and probably because no one remembered that irrlicht even had it |
22:43 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Minetest on windows 98 |
22:44 |
cheapie |
Heh, a client with Win9x compatibility and support for OpenGL 1.x would be neat to see, would make much more sense as a separate project though. |
22:44 |
MTDiscord |
<arishua> Also, I think that if the number of people using old hardware is large enough, then there will definitely be at least one developer who can discard server requests to non-existent methods, or come up with adapters for old versions |
22:45 |
Noisytoot |
I knew that dropping OpenGL 1.x/fixed pipeline support was planned, but not OpenGL 2.1 |
22:47 |
Mantar |
arishua: that's the standard open-source hardware support policy I was referring to: if there's enough of it out there, somebody will show up to maintain it so their stuff doesn't break |
22:47 |
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22:50 |
nekobit |
Noisytoot: get a new device |
22:50 |
nekobit |
i have an opengl 2.1 junk in a drawer and it sucks |
22:51 |
*Â cheapie |
makes a note to dig the RPi 400 back out sometime and see if OpenGL ES actually works... and also if it performs any better than regular OpenGL |
22:51 |
nekobit |
nobody should be used opengl 2.1 |
22:51 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Let's put it this way: The geforce 8600 gt was released on April 17th, 2007, https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/geforce-8600-gt.c198 can probably BARELY run minetest. Has drivers that have been out of date for https://www.nvidia.com/download/driverResults.aspx/81761/en-us/ 9 years. Your only hope at that point is nouveau to get minetest to cough to life |
22:51 |
Noisytoot |
nekobit: Any suggestions that do not require more non-free software than what I currently use and are cheap? |
22:52 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> If you can't even remember where you put your rpi 4 that shows that that thing is basically a relic of the past because if it came out of the gate as a paperweight for gaming |
22:53 |
cheapie |
Less-than-4-year-old device that's the immediate predecessor to the current model is "a relic of the past" now, got it |
22:53 |
nekobit |
Noisytoot: whats the point of buying free hardware if you dont even know how the hardware works? you have zero clue how your device is even structured. |
22:53 |
cheapie |
The GPU is indeed a paperweight, llvmpipe on it perfomed almost as well and with OpenGL 4.x too :/ |
22:54 |
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22:55 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Yes, that is a relic of the past, that thing is 5 years old and probably uses 512mb of ram. That thing is basically from 2006 |
22:55 |
ROllerozxa |
Noisytoot: literally anything newer than whatever you have. you could genuinely probably find it in a dumpster if you're desperate, it's not very difficult |
22:55 |
Noisytoot |
The probability of a random computer I find in a dumpster being able to run coreboot (especially without blobs) is low |
22:56 |
nekobit |
The probability of finding a job is pretty high however |
22:56 |
cheapie |
It was one thing to claim that pre-2011 stuff is old... but something that's 5 years old now (it's not 5 years old, the 400 came out in 2020, but whatever) is old now too? |
22:57 |
ROllerozxa |
used chromebooks pour out from schools and other places. get an x86-based one, coreboot them and install proper linux on them, you'll definitely get something newer than opengl 2.1 |
22:58 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Hey Noisytoot I found you this ultra high end gpu for 3 bucks https://www.ebay.com/itm/145184011287 |
22:58 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Even has opengl 4.4 support |
22:58 |
ROllerozxa |
marvelous |
22:58 |
Noisytoot |
Minetest is playable (slow, but still playable) on my current computer and there's no good reason to change that. x86-based chromebooks will still have Intel ME. |
22:59 |
Noisytoot |
It's not useful for me since this is a laptop, but does it even work with linux-libre? |
22:59 |
nekobit |
Doc, im afraid its terminal... |
22:59 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> it's ati, it's in the drm kmod island drivers |
22:59 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Aka, the legacy portion of that driver set |
22:59 |
cheapie |
Noisytoot: AMD GPU's don't require any blobs to run on the CPU AFAIK, there is firmware but it runs on the GPU itself only. |
23:00 |
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23:01 |
nekobit |
I still dont understand the logic. What is the point of non-free firmware when you dont even know how the hardware itself is structured? Unless you know where every transistor is, is it really free? |
23:02 |
Noisytoot |
You could use the same argument to say that free software is pointless |
23:02 |
ireallyhateirc |
nonfree hardware running free software is still better than nonfree software running on nonfree hardware |
23:03 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Oi mate, I'm very sorry that your windows xp laptop will not be able to run minetest anymore |
23:03 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Have you considered upgrading to a vista core 2 duo so you can run gl 3.1 at least? |
23:04 |
Noisytoot |
I am running GNU/Linux, not Windows, and this is a Core 2 Duo |
23:04 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Well I'm sorry your ubuntu 6.04 laptop cannot run opengl 3.1 |
23:05 |
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23:05 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> How much ram does that thing happen to have? |
23:05 |
cheapie |
(Is this the part where I be a pain for no reason and point out that it was 6.06?) |
23:05 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I'll never let them live it down |
23:06 |
nekobit |
Noisytoot have i seen you before? |
23:06 |
Noisytoot |
8GB. And old hardware ≠old software. The latest version of Linux still runs on it fine. |
23:06 |
Noisytoot |
Yes. |
23:07 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Old hardware means that your bios is probably around 20 years out of date |
23:07 |
nekobit |
Did you snitch on our free software channel and force us to move to rizon |
23:07 |
nekobit |
didnt you? |
23:07 |
Noisytoot |
no, I didn't even know it moved to rizon |
23:07 |
nekobit |
It did |
23:08 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> oo is there drama coming up |
23:08 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> wait what I thought this was libera |
23:08 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> this is liberachat |
23:08 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> What in the tarnation is rizon |
23:08 |
nekobit |
I wont forgive you |
23:09 |
cheapie |
Rizon is the network where every channel is just "!list" over and over again |
23:09 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> jordan4ibanez: it's an IRC network for AMD enthusiasts |
23:09 |
nekobit |
Rizon was mostly used for file sharing and anime translations |
23:10 |
nekobit |
libera is more of a tech/project focused chat |
23:10 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Wow this is some drama I did not expect and literally do not understand |
23:10 |
nekobit |
its nothing drama, ill move on |
23:10 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> But now is the moment where I cause the drama |
23:11 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Get a new laptop or a parts bin old desktop and shove an ancient graphics card in it that can run 3.1 good gravy |
23:14 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> On the RPI4 you can pipe a pcie bus over some part of it which I do not remember to get a modern gpu running in it with a gpu cage |
23:14 |
cheapie |
A workaround was already mentioned for the RPi 4/400, so I'm not so concerned about that now. |
23:15 |
cheapie |
I still think the proposed requirements are obscenely high for what is (in the most common configurations) a pixelated block game, but they have been for ages, so *shrug* |
23:16 |
Noisytoot |
There's nothing to forgive me for because I didn't do anything related to any channels moving to rizon |
23:16 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> A pixelated block game which runs a complex shader algorithm on your gpu while banking lighting on your gpu and |
23:16 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> literally, everything that you see |
23:16 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> minetest can run in gl 1.0 from what I remember and crashes when it switches context |
23:17 |
cheapie |
What does that actually accomplish? It looks about the same with shaders turned on or off and the performance is so bad that sometimes I wonder how much work the GPU is even doing in the first place. |
23:17 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> So because you don't want to use it we have to hold back new features for people that want to use those features? |
23:18 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> And the strawman of rpi 4 just doesn't sit right, that thing is not meant for gaming and barely runs desktop linux |
23:18 |
Noisytoot |
New features should be implemented in a backwards-compatible way |
23:18 |
cheapie |
I already mentioned the RPI 4/400 part of it was resolved (what, three times now?) |
23:19 |
nekobit |
Noisytoot: from what I recall, you did |
23:19 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Well that would be great, if the ancient technology that is gl 2.1 was even compatible with the shader components that enable these new features |
23:19 |
cheapie |
What are these new features? |
23:20 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I didn't see anyone angry about them removing burnings from the engine |
23:20 |
cheapie |
burnings never actually worked. |
23:20 |
Noisytoot |
nekobit: I got banned for a reason that was never explained (and I still don't know why), and since then have had nothing to do with that channel. But this is off-topic in here. |
23:22 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Well for one |
23:22 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1260737846868840468/image.png?ex=6690691e&is=668f179e&hm=0df602c189926cf2488222f37d0f63eaa531629e36e9795d8b5d7a56b7c4d6d8& |
23:22 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Erle under a new name till they burn this one to? |
23:22 |
cheapie |
Blurry clouds? |
23:22 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> The volumetric clouds shader has absolutely no chance of running on gl 2.1 |
23:22 |
Noisytoot |
I'm not erle, if that's what you're saying |
23:23 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Then we have this whole host of lighting capabilities a very intelligent user created |
23:23 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1260738235001344080/screenshot_20240504_203135.png?ex=6690697a&is=668f17fa&hm=f3239442077376420d6f340d1d813b7988b8bb0dd38381803cd31cf118e3945a& |
23:23 |
Noisytoot |
There can be more than one user of old hardware |
23:24 |
cheapie |
That one actually looks neat - not something I'd ever want to play using, but it looks like it would make for great screenshots. |
23:26 |
Noisytoot |
Isn't that already implemented? OpenGL 2.1 support still exists, so adding that didn't require dropping support for OpenGL 2.1 |
23:26 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Absolutely not |
23:27 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> And if you're wondering why the performance is so utterly horrible, because with gl 2.1 being the cruise ship anchor that it is, implementation optimization of gl in general, forwards, gets held wayyyyyyy back because it's not capable of certain components of even gl 3.0 |
23:28 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> And we hop to just 3.1 we get instancing, tbo, and ubo |
23:28 |
cheapie |
If you can manage at least like 25% better performance on OpenGL 3+ hardware by dropping support for anything older, then... sure, that easily outweighs the drawbacks of dropping support for 2.x a bit early. |
23:29 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Yes, that's probably why they want to do it |
23:30 |
cheapie |
Just please don't keep basing the default settings off a 4090 or something and default to a view range of 250 just because it performs a bit less badly than it used to :P |
23:30 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> You need to enable forward compatibility to get to 4.1 so you have actual opengl error output via glMessageDebugCallback so you're literally not guessing what errors are happening |
23:30 |
cheapie |
(I would kind of like to know what sort of hardware was involved when that 190 was settled on, but I doubt that's documented anywhere) |
23:31 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> The only hardware that the core developer team can test on is the hardware that they own |
23:32 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Hardware architecture is vastly different across generations, what might be extremely fast might be extremely slow 2 generations back and 3 generations forwards |
23:33 |
cheapie |
I suppose it was also back when MTG was included, so I imagine it was probably tested with unmodded/lightly modded MTG... that also seems to generally perform somewhat better than most other games. |
23:33 |
Noisytoot |
I disagree, but that's because I actually use OpenGL 2.1 and would rather be able to run minetest than not |
23:34 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> That's not only because of minetest game is basically a skeleton of a game, basically no entities, no calculations during runtime, nothing. It's basically just a base on top of the engine to show you how to make a game with it |
23:34 |
Noisytoot |
Isn't that the devtest game? |
23:34 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> That's erle |
23:35 |
cheapie |
Devtest is for testing, if you make a game around /that/ it's not going to be a very fun game. |
23:36 |
cheapie |
FWIW I'm about 95% sure Noisytoot isn't erle, I've known Noisytoot for a few years now elsewhere and they've always been like this. |
23:36 |
cheapie |
Also last time I talked to erle I think it was about OpenGL 1 :P |
23:37 |
Noisytoot |
and my NickServ account was created the same day Libera was, they would've had to plan ban evasion quite far in advance |
23:37 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> devtest needs a component added in to spawn in a few thousand of the same entity to test the instancing renderer |
23:37 |
cheapie |
Noisytoot: I still have you beat on that :D |
23:37 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> It should stress your gpu core, not the pcie bridge |
23:37 |
ireallyhateirc |
installed Minetest on my stinkpad, 10 FPS with undersampling 5, opengl 2.1 |
23:38 |
ireallyhateirc |
Noisytoot, any tips to make it faster? |
23:39 |
ireallyhateirc |
ok got 20 fps after setting view range to 50 nodes |
23:40 |
cheapie |
On hardware that old I usually just set the view range to 20 and go from there. |
23:40 |
Noisytoot |
ireallyhateirc: disable 3d clouds, dynamic shadows, waving *, and use simple or opaque leaves |
23:41 |
cheapie |
BuckarooBanzai: I just now saw your message - I *am* generating the entire world (within a certain Y range) but there are no players connected or anything so the built-in command is fine. |
23:42 |
cheapie |
I've been giving it new sections to work on periodically this week (whenever I have a chance to - not monitoring it from at work or anything) and it was about 3/4 done last time I did. |
23:44 |
cheapie |
It's just unmodded MTG with mgvWTF (7) and default settings, mostly just doing this because I want to make a map of the whole world, because I can :P |
23:45 |
Noisytoot |
I also have my unfocused FPS set to 3, which doesn't improve performance of minetest but does improve performance of other stuff while minetest is open but unfocused |
23:45 |
cheapie |
minetestmapper still has the same old bug with crashing if a large area is specified, but breaking up the world into 16 map "tiles" and manually merging them afterwards isn't too bad. |
23:45 |
ireallyhateirc |
got it to 30FPS by disabling shaders |
23:50 |
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citrons joined #minetest |
23:57 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> What if you install slackware and use the base xorg implementation to run minetest? |
23:59 |
cheapie |
Noisytoot: I'm kind of curious, actually - on your old laptop, what does MT run like using software rendering (llvmpipe - set LIBGL_ALWAYS_SOFTWARE=1)? |