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IRC log for #minetest, 2024-07-10

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10:00 BuckarooBanzai cheapie, fyi: the blockexchange has a `/bx_emerge` command that emerges the area asynchronously, just in case you want to mapgen your entire world :D
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17:22 sfan5 <cheapie> Still running fine though, aside from the usual "Couldn't grab block we just generated" message
17:22 sfan5 I'm still missing a reproducer for that
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17:23 MTDiscord <arishua> What do you think about the transfer to OpenGL3, if this is planned, then in what version of Minetest?
17:28 sfan5 short answer: yes
17:28 sfan5 long answer: what change do you expect to see when we switch to OpenGL 3?
17:29 MTDiscord <arishua> Simple adding new vertex attributes
17:31 sfan5 yeah that's become possible
17:31 sfan5 that'd*
17:32 MTDiscord <arishua> Now i see some warnings with frame buffers every millisecond, but other than that it works well
17:32 MTDiscord <arishua> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1260649955236777984/image.png?ex=66901743&amp;is=668ec5c3&amp;hm=1de1660d18c0ae29ac5fd463018ab65f1ecda432e7ebc5a1ea3c841a4d58496f&amp;
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21:10 nekobit wait, it isnt opengl 3?
21:11 nekobit is everything immediate mode?
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21:41 MTDiscord <arishua> It is OpenGL3
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21:42 MTDiscord <arishua> Full of Irrlicht: GL warnings 😄
21:42 MTDiscord <arishua> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1260712900931092520/image.png?ex=669051e2&amp;is=668f0062&amp;hm=49f5cee0adada7d36ee95cfca371c90fb8da57d557aafb53e1ceb1f098b1fe09&amp;
21:43 MTDiscord <arishua> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1260713040655941632/image.png?ex=66905203&amp;is=668f0083&amp;hm=c61807d93d81b690aa44fa903fc3059879cfe23be3b1798f21f67d6ce81c3335&amp;
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22:08 Noisytoot dropping support for OpenGL 2.1 is a bad idea and would make minetest unusable for me
22:09 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Released in 2006
22:10 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> You are running minetest on 18 year old hardware?
22:13 Noisytoot I use a ThinkPad X200 with canoeboot. Newer Intel CPUs have no way to fully remove the ME.
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22:14 ireallyhateirc Minetest runs on my StinkPad T60 from 2008
22:14 MTDiscord <arishua> You will can use Minetest, just old versions
22:14 ireallyhateirc just needs undersampling of 5 and you can get 30 FPS
22:15 Noisytoot Until protocol backwards compatibility is broken, or servers start using features not available in older versions
22:16 MTDiscord <arishua> But we can just make a fork of MineTest with OpenGL3 and a normal name like MineProd, and leave MineTest for devices without OpenGL3 support
22:17 Noisytoot Why not just stay on OpenGL 2.1, or add a new OpenGL 3 renderer without dropping the old one?
22:19 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> If you keep maintaining certain features, it's going to get to the point where it takes like 30 minutes to compile the project
22:23 MTDiscord <arishua> If you help Andrey01 add new vertex attribute for current OpenGL 2.1 implementation, Minetest maintain backward compatibility
22:23 ROllerozxa if you don't have access to anything newer than OpenGL 2.1 in current year that's honestly your issue at that point. even the chromebook I bought out for a symbolical sum from my school and have now corebooted has OpenGL 4.0+ something, you *can* get ahold of something newer
22:23 Noisytoot I don't think keeping OpenGL 2.1 support will have a very significant effect on compilation time. #ifdef exists if it really becomes an issue.
22:24 MTDiscord <wsor4035> code debt is always a thing
22:24 Mantar the time to remove something like that IMO is when it finally breaks and nobody wants to fix it :D
22:25 Noisytoot I don't know OpenGL so I can't do that
22:26 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> I'll see if I can get my great grandfather to maintain the opengl 2.1 implementation
22:26 MTDiscord <arishua> Also, nobody can deny you host Minetest servers with compatible versions, some times ago that happened with MineCraft
22:27 MTDiscord <arishua> Many players play on old version, hold servers, making mods
22:31 Noisytoot It would mean that I wouldn't be able to play on servers that update to new, incompatible versions
22:32 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Maybe you could just use your android phone to run the game unless it's running android 1.0
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22:33 cheapie sfan5: That message comes up whenever you do /emergeblocks at all, I'm puzzled how anyone has managed to /not/ reproduce it.
22:35 MTDiscord <arishua> But you dont want new features, what is problem?
22:35 cheapie jordan4ibanez: RPi 4 is hardly "18 year old hardware"
22:35 MTDiscord <arishua> Just imagine that Minetest was forked
22:38 Noisytoot The problem is playing on existing servers that do upgrade. Also, it's not that I don't want new features, it's that I don't want features that break backwards compatibility.
22:38 ROllerozxa cheapie: RPi 4 supports up to OpenGL ES 3.2
22:38 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> cheapie: rpi 4 supports vulkan and es 3.2 lol
22:38 cheapie Does MT actually work with OpenGL ES? It didn't last time I tried it, but that was a while back.
22:38 ROllerozxa it does
22:39 ROllerozxa you can build with it enabled on linux at least
22:39 ROllerozxa and the new ogles2 driver shares codepaths with the modern opengl3 driver
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22:41 MTDiscord <arishua> Okay, that looks like good reason for learn OpenGL and C++ for provide backward compatibility
22:41 Noisytoot If OpenGL ES 2.0 support is kept maybe I could use that if I compiled irrlichtmt with support for that. If that's dropped then it won't run on my phone either (which runs postmarketOS and not android).
22:41 ROllerozxa OpenGL ES 2.0 support isn't going anywhere afaik
22:42 cheapie I suppose that brings MT's requirements down to "video card from about 2010 or newer" - really a game like this should probably be able to run on older than that, but MT's performance has been so bad for ages now that even hardware a decent amount newer is pretty much unusable, so... no big loss, I suppose.
22:42 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Just opengl 2.1 because it's basically been around because of historical context and probably because no one remembered that irrlicht even had it
22:43 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Minetest on windows 98
22:44 cheapie Heh, a client with Win9x compatibility and support for OpenGL 1.x would be neat to see, would make much more sense as a separate project though.
22:44 MTDiscord <arishua> Also, I think that if the number of people using old hardware is large enough, then there will definitely be at least one developer who can discard server requests to non-existent methods, or come up with adapters for old versions
22:45 Noisytoot I knew that dropping OpenGL 1.x/fixed pipeline support was planned, but not OpenGL 2.1
22:47 Mantar arishua: that's the standard open-source hardware support policy I was referring to: if there's enough of it out there, somebody will show up to maintain it so their stuff doesn't break
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22:50 nekobit Noisytoot: get a new device
22:50 nekobit i have an opengl 2.1 junk in a drawer and it sucks
22:51 * cheapie makes a note to dig the RPi 400 back out sometime and see if OpenGL ES actually works... and also if it performs any better than regular OpenGL
22:51 nekobit nobody should be used opengl 2.1
22:51 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Let's put it this way: The geforce 8600 gt was released on April 17th, 2007, https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/geforce-8600-gt.c198 can probably BARELY run minetest. Has drivers that have been out of date for https://www.nvidia.com/download/driverResults.aspx/81761/en-us/ 9 years. Your only hope at that point is nouveau to get minetest to cough to life
22:51 Noisytoot nekobit: Any suggestions that do not require more non-free software than what I currently use and are cheap?
22:52 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> If you can't even remember where you put your rpi 4 that shows that that thing is basically a relic of the past because if it came out of the gate as a paperweight for gaming
22:53 cheapie Less-than-4-year-old device that's the immediate predecessor to the current model is "a relic of the past" now, got it
22:53 nekobit Noisytoot: whats the point of buying free hardware if you dont even know how the hardware works? you have zero clue how your device is even structured.
22:53 cheapie The GPU is indeed a paperweight, llvmpipe on it perfomed almost as well and with OpenGL 4.x too :/
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22:55 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Yes, that is a relic of the past, that thing is 5 years old and probably uses 512mb of ram. That thing is basically from 2006
22:55 ROllerozxa Noisytoot: literally anything newer than whatever you have. you could genuinely probably find it in a dumpster if you're desperate, it's not very difficult
22:55 Noisytoot The probability of a random computer I find in a dumpster being able to run coreboot (especially without blobs) is low
22:56 nekobit The probability of finding a job is pretty high however
22:56 cheapie It was one thing to claim that pre-2011 stuff is old... but something that's 5 years old now (it's not 5 years old, the 400 came out in 2020, but whatever) is old now too?
22:57 ROllerozxa used chromebooks pour out from schools and other places. get an x86-based one, coreboot them and install proper linux on them, you'll definitely get something newer than opengl 2.1
22:58 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Hey Noisytoot I found you this ultra high end gpu for 3 bucks https://www.ebay.com/itm/145184011287
22:58 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Even has opengl 4.4 support
22:58 ROllerozxa marvelous
22:58 Noisytoot Minetest is playable (slow, but still playable) on my current computer and there's no good reason to change that. x86-based chromebooks will still have Intel ME.
22:59 Noisytoot It's not useful for me since this is a laptop, but does it even work with linux-libre?
22:59 nekobit Doc, im afraid its terminal...
22:59 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> it's ati, it's in the drm kmod island drivers
22:59 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Aka, the legacy portion of that driver set
22:59 cheapie Noisytoot: AMD GPU's don't require any blobs to run on the CPU AFAIK, there is firmware but it runs on the GPU itself only.
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23:01 nekobit I still dont understand the logic. What is the point of non-free firmware when you dont even know how the hardware itself is structured? Unless you know where every transistor is, is it really free?
23:02 Noisytoot You could use the same argument to say that free software is pointless
23:02 ireallyhateirc nonfree hardware running free software is still better than nonfree software running on nonfree hardware
23:03 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Oi mate, I'm very sorry that your windows xp laptop will not be able to run minetest anymore
23:03 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Have you considered upgrading to a vista core 2 duo so you can run gl 3.1 at least?
23:04 Noisytoot I am running GNU/Linux, not Windows, and this is a Core 2 Duo
23:04 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Well I'm sorry your ubuntu 6.04 laptop cannot run opengl 3.1
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23:05 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> How much ram does that thing happen to have?
23:05 cheapie (Is this the part where I be a pain for no reason and point out that it was 6.06?)
23:05 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> I'll never let them live it down
23:06 nekobit Noisytoot have i seen you before?
23:06 Noisytoot 8GB. And old hardware ≠ old software. The latest version of Linux still runs on it fine.
23:06 Noisytoot Yes.
23:07 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Old hardware means that your bios is probably around 20 years out of date
23:07 nekobit Did you snitch on our free software channel and force us to move to rizon
23:07 nekobit didnt you?
23:07 Noisytoot no, I didn't even know it moved to rizon
23:07 nekobit It did
23:08 MTDiscord <rollerozxa> oo is there drama coming up
23:08 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> wait what I thought this was libera
23:08 MTDiscord <rollerozxa> this is liberachat
23:08 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> What in the tarnation is rizon
23:08 nekobit I wont forgive you
23:09 cheapie Rizon is the network where every channel is just "!list" over and over again
23:09 MTDiscord <rollerozxa> jordan4ibanez: it's an IRC network for AMD enthusiasts
23:09 nekobit Rizon was mostly used for file sharing and anime translations
23:10 nekobit libera is more of a tech/project focused chat
23:10 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Wow this is some drama I did not expect and literally do not understand
23:10 nekobit its nothing drama, ill move on
23:10 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> But now is the moment where I cause the drama
23:11 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Get a new laptop or a parts bin old desktop and shove an ancient graphics card in it that can run 3.1 good gravy
23:14 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> On the RPI4 you can pipe a pcie bus over some part of it which I do not remember to get a modern gpu running in it with a gpu cage
23:14 cheapie A workaround was already mentioned for the RPi 4/400, so I'm not so concerned about that now.
23:15 cheapie I still think the proposed requirements are obscenely high for what is (in the most common configurations) a pixelated block game, but they have been for ages, so *shrug*
23:16 Noisytoot There's nothing to forgive me for because I didn't do anything related to any channels moving to rizon
23:16 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> A pixelated block game which runs a complex shader algorithm on your gpu while banking lighting on your gpu and
23:16 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> literally, everything that you see
23:16 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> minetest can run in gl 1.0 from what I remember and crashes when it switches context
23:17 cheapie What does that actually accomplish? It looks about the same with shaders turned on or off and the performance is so bad that sometimes I wonder how much work the GPU is even doing in the first place.
23:17 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> So because you don't want to use it we have to hold back new features for people that want to use those features?
23:18 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> And the strawman of rpi 4 just doesn't sit right, that thing is not meant for gaming and barely runs desktop linux
23:18 Noisytoot New features should be implemented in a backwards-compatible way
23:18 cheapie I already mentioned the RPI 4/400 part of it was resolved (what, three times now?)
23:19 nekobit Noisytoot: from what I recall, you did
23:19 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Well that would be great, if the ancient technology that is gl 2.1 was even compatible with the shader components that enable these new features
23:19 cheapie What are these new features?
23:20 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> I didn't see anyone angry about them removing burnings from the engine
23:20 cheapie burnings never actually worked.
23:20 Noisytoot nekobit: I got banned for a reason that was never explained (and I still don't know why), and since then have had nothing to do with that channel. But this is off-topic in here.
23:22 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Well for one
23:22 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1260737846868840468/image.png?ex=6690691e&amp;is=668f179e&amp;hm=0df602c189926cf2488222f37d0f63eaa531629e36e9795d8b5d7a56b7c4d6d8&amp;
23:22 MTDiscord <wsor4035> Erle under a new name till they burn this one to?
23:22 cheapie Blurry clouds?
23:22 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> The volumetric clouds shader has absolutely no chance of running on gl 2.1
23:22 Noisytoot I'm not erle, if that's what you're saying
23:23 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Then we have this whole host of lighting capabilities a very intelligent user created
23:23 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1260738235001344080/screenshot_20240504_203135.png?ex=6690697a&amp;is=668f17fa&amp;hm=f3239442077376420d6f340d1d813b7988b8bb0dd38381803cd31cf118e3945a&amp;
23:23 Noisytoot There can be more than one user of old hardware
23:24 cheapie That one actually looks neat - not something I'd ever want to play using, but it looks like it would make for great screenshots.
23:26 Noisytoot Isn't that already implemented? OpenGL 2.1 support still exists, so adding that didn't require dropping support for OpenGL 2.1
23:26 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Absolutely not
23:27 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> And if you're wondering why the performance is so utterly horrible, because with gl 2.1 being the cruise ship anchor that it is, implementation optimization of gl in general, forwards, gets held wayyyyyyy back because it's not capable of certain components of even gl 3.0
23:28 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> And we hop to just 3.1 we get instancing, tbo, and ubo
23:28 cheapie If you can manage at least like 25% better performance on OpenGL 3+ hardware by dropping support for anything older, then... sure, that easily outweighs the drawbacks of dropping support for 2.x a bit early.
23:29 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Yes, that's probably why they want to do it
23:30 cheapie Just please don't keep basing the default settings off a 4090 or something and default to a view range of 250 just because it performs a bit less badly than it used to :P
23:30 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> You need to enable forward compatibility to get to 4.1 so you have actual opengl error output via glMessageDebugCallback so you're literally not guessing what errors are happening
23:30 cheapie (I would kind of like to know what sort of hardware was involved when that 190 was settled on, but I doubt that's documented anywhere)
23:31 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> The only hardware that the core developer team can test on is the hardware that they own
23:32 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Hardware architecture is vastly different across generations, what might be extremely fast might be extremely slow 2 generations back and 3 generations forwards
23:33 cheapie I suppose it was also back when MTG was included, so I imagine it was probably tested with unmodded/lightly modded MTG... that also seems to generally perform somewhat better than most other games.
23:33 Noisytoot I disagree, but that's because I actually use OpenGL 2.1 and would rather be able to run minetest than not
23:34 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> That's not only because of minetest game is basically a skeleton of a game, basically no entities, no calculations during runtime, nothing. It's basically just a base on top of the engine to show you how to make a game with it
23:34 Noisytoot Isn't that the devtest game?
23:34 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> That's erle
23:35 cheapie Devtest is for testing, if you make a game around /that/ it's not going to be a very fun game.
23:36 cheapie FWIW I'm about 95% sure Noisytoot isn't erle, I've known Noisytoot for a few years now elsewhere and they've always been like this.
23:36 cheapie Also last time I talked to erle I think it was about OpenGL 1 :P
23:37 Noisytoot and my NickServ account was created the same day Libera was, they would've had to plan ban evasion quite far in advance
23:37 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> devtest needs a component added in to spawn in a few thousand of the same entity to test the instancing renderer
23:37 cheapie Noisytoot: I still have you beat on that :D
23:37 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> It should stress your gpu core, not the pcie bridge
23:37 ireallyhateirc installed Minetest on my stinkpad, 10 FPS with undersampling 5, opengl 2.1
23:38 ireallyhateirc Noisytoot, any tips to make it faster?
23:39 ireallyhateirc ok got 20 fps after setting view range to 50 nodes
23:40 cheapie On hardware that old I usually just set the view range to 20 and go from there.
23:40 Noisytoot ireallyhateirc: disable 3d clouds, dynamic shadows, waving *, and use simple or opaque leaves
23:41 cheapie BuckarooBanzai: I just now saw your message - I *am* generating the entire world (within a certain Y range) but there are no players connected or anything so the built-in command is fine.
23:42 cheapie I've been giving it new sections to work on periodically this week (whenever I have a chance to - not monitoring it from at work or anything) and it was about 3/4 done last time I did.
23:44 cheapie It's just unmodded MTG with mgvWTF (7) and default settings, mostly just doing this because I want to make a map of the whole world, because I can :P
23:45 Noisytoot I also have my unfocused FPS set to 3, which doesn't improve performance of minetest but does improve performance of other stuff while minetest is open but unfocused
23:45 cheapie minetestmapper still has the same old bug with crashing if a large area is specified, but breaking up the world into 16 map "tiles" and manually merging them afterwards isn't too bad.
23:45 ireallyhateirc got it to 30FPS by disabling shaders
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23:57 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> What if you install slackware and use the base xorg implementation to run minetest?
23:59 cheapie Noisytoot: I'm kind of curious, actually - on your old laptop, what does MT run like using software rendering (llvmpipe - set LIBGL_ALWAYS_SOFTWARE=1)?

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