Time Nick Message 10:00 BuckarooBanzai cheapie, fyi: the blockexchange has a `/bx_emerge` command that emerges the area asynchronously, just in case you want to mapgen your entire world :D 14:46 markverb1 hello 17:22 sfan5 Still running fine though, aside from the usual "Couldn't grab block we just generated" message 17:22 sfan5 I'm still missing a reproducer for that 17:23 MTDiscord What do you think about the transfer to OpenGL3, if this is planned, then in what version of Minetest? 17:28 sfan5 short answer: yes 17:28 sfan5 long answer: what change do you expect to see when we switch to OpenGL 3? 17:29 MTDiscord Simple adding new vertex attributes 17:31 sfan5 yeah that's become possible 17:31 sfan5 that'd* 17:32 MTDiscord Now i see some warnings with frame buffers every millisecond, but other than that it works well 17:32 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1260649955236777984/image.png?ex=66901743&is=668ec5c3&hm=1de1660d18c0ae29ac5fd463018ab65f1ecda432e7ebc5a1ea3c841a4d58496f& 21:10 nekobit wait, it isnt opengl 3? 21:11 nekobit is everything immediate mode? 21:41 MTDiscord It is OpenGL3 21:42 MTDiscord Full of Irrlicht: GL warnings 😄 21:42 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1260712900931092520/image.png?ex=669051e2&is=668f0062&hm=49f5cee0adada7d36ee95cfca371c90fb8da57d557aafb53e1ceb1f098b1fe09& 21:43 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1260713040655941632/image.png?ex=66905203&is=668f0083&hm=c61807d93d81b690aa44fa903fc3059879cfe23be3b1798f21f67d6ce81c3335& 22:08 Noisytoot dropping support for OpenGL 2.1 is a bad idea and would make minetest unusable for me 22:09 MTDiscord Released in 2006 22:10 MTDiscord You are running minetest on 18 year old hardware? 22:13 Noisytoot I use a ThinkPad X200 with canoeboot. Newer Intel CPUs have no way to fully remove the ME. 22:14 ireallyhateirc Minetest runs on my StinkPad T60 from 2008 22:14 MTDiscord You will can use Minetest, just old versions 22:14 ireallyhateirc just needs undersampling of 5 and you can get 30 FPS 22:15 Noisytoot Until protocol backwards compatibility is broken, or servers start using features not available in older versions 22:16 MTDiscord But we can just make a fork of MineTest with OpenGL3 and a normal name like MineProd, and leave MineTest for devices without OpenGL3 support 22:17 Noisytoot Why not just stay on OpenGL 2.1, or add a new OpenGL 3 renderer without dropping the old one? 22:19 MTDiscord If you keep maintaining certain features, it's going to get to the point where it takes like 30 minutes to compile the project 22:23 MTDiscord If you help Andrey01 add new vertex attribute for current OpenGL 2.1 implementation, Minetest maintain backward compatibility 22:23 ROllerozxa if you don't have access to anything newer than OpenGL 2.1 in current year that's honestly your issue at that point. even the chromebook I bought out for a symbolical sum from my school and have now corebooted has OpenGL 4.0+ something, you *can* get ahold of something newer 22:23 Noisytoot I don't think keeping OpenGL 2.1 support will have a very significant effect on compilation time. #ifdef exists if it really becomes an issue. 22:24 MTDiscord code debt is always a thing 22:24 Mantar the time to remove something like that IMO is when it finally breaks and nobody wants to fix it :D 22:25 Noisytoot I don't know OpenGL so I can't do that 22:26 MTDiscord I'll see if I can get my great grandfather to maintain the opengl 2.1 implementation 22:26 MTDiscord Also, nobody can deny you host Minetest servers with compatible versions, some times ago that happened with MineCraft 22:27 MTDiscord Many players play on old version, hold servers, making mods 22:31 Noisytoot It would mean that I wouldn't be able to play on servers that update to new, incompatible versions 22:32 MTDiscord Maybe you could just use your android phone to run the game unless it's running android 1.0 22:33 cheapie sfan5: That message comes up whenever you do /emergeblocks at all, I'm puzzled how anyone has managed to /not/ reproduce it. 22:35 MTDiscord But you dont want new features, what is problem? 22:35 cheapie jordan4ibanez: RPi 4 is hardly "18 year old hardware" 22:35 MTDiscord Just imagine that Minetest was forked 22:38 Noisytoot The problem is playing on existing servers that do upgrade. Also, it's not that I don't want new features, it's that I don't want features that break backwards compatibility. 22:38 ROllerozxa cheapie: RPi 4 supports up to OpenGL ES 3.2 22:38 MTDiscord cheapie: rpi 4 supports vulkan and es 3.2 lol 22:38 cheapie Does MT actually work with OpenGL ES? It didn't last time I tried it, but that was a while back. 22:38 ROllerozxa it does 22:39 ROllerozxa you can build with it enabled on linux at least 22:39 ROllerozxa and the new ogles2 driver shares codepaths with the modern opengl3 driver 22:41 MTDiscord Okay, that looks like good reason for learn OpenGL and C++ for provide backward compatibility 22:41 Noisytoot If OpenGL ES 2.0 support is kept maybe I could use that if I compiled irrlichtmt with support for that. If that's dropped then it won't run on my phone either (which runs postmarketOS and not android). 22:41 ROllerozxa OpenGL ES 2.0 support isn't going anywhere afaik 22:42 cheapie I suppose that brings MT's requirements down to "video card from about 2010 or newer" - really a game like this should probably be able to run on older than that, but MT's performance has been so bad for ages now that even hardware a decent amount newer is pretty much unusable, so... no big loss, I suppose. 22:42 MTDiscord Just opengl 2.1 because it's basically been around because of historical context and probably because no one remembered that irrlicht even had it 22:43 MTDiscord Minetest on windows 98 22:44 cheapie Heh, a client with Win9x compatibility and support for OpenGL 1.x would be neat to see, would make much more sense as a separate project though. 22:44 MTDiscord Also, I think that if the number of people using old hardware is large enough, then there will definitely be at least one developer who can discard server requests to non-existent methods, or come up with adapters for old versions 22:45 Noisytoot I knew that dropping OpenGL 1.x/fixed pipeline support was planned, but not OpenGL 2.1 22:47 Mantar arishua: that's the standard open-source hardware support policy I was referring to: if there's enough of it out there, somebody will show up to maintain it so their stuff doesn't break 22:50 nekobit Noisytoot: get a new device 22:50 nekobit i have an opengl 2.1 junk in a drawer and it sucks 22:51 * cheapie makes a note to dig the RPi 400 back out sometime and see if OpenGL ES actually works... and also if it performs any better than regular OpenGL 22:51 nekobit nobody should be used opengl 2.1 22:51 MTDiscord Let's put it this way: The geforce 8600 gt was released on April 17th, 2007, https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/geforce-8600-gt.c198 can probably BARELY run minetest. Has drivers that have been out of date for https://www.nvidia.com/download/driverResults.aspx/81761/en-us/ 9 years. Your only hope at that point is nouveau to get minetest to cough to life 22:51 Noisytoot nekobit: Any suggestions that do not require more non-free software than what I currently use and are cheap? 22:52 MTDiscord If you can't even remember where you put your rpi 4 that shows that that thing is basically a relic of the past because if it came out of the gate as a paperweight for gaming 22:53 cheapie Less-than-4-year-old device that's the immediate predecessor to the current model is "a relic of the past" now, got it 22:53 nekobit Noisytoot: whats the point of buying free hardware if you dont even know how the hardware works? you have zero clue how your device is even structured. 22:53 cheapie The GPU is indeed a paperweight, llvmpipe on it perfomed almost as well and with OpenGL 4.x too :/ 22:55 MTDiscord Yes, that is a relic of the past, that thing is 5 years old and probably uses 512mb of ram. That thing is basically from 2006 22:55 ROllerozxa Noisytoot: literally anything newer than whatever you have. you could genuinely probably find it in a dumpster if you're desperate, it's not very difficult 22:55 Noisytoot The probability of a random computer I find in a dumpster being able to run coreboot (especially without blobs) is low 22:56 nekobit The probability of finding a job is pretty high however 22:56 cheapie It was one thing to claim that pre-2011 stuff is old... but something that's 5 years old now (it's not 5 years old, the 400 came out in 2020, but whatever) is old now too? 22:57 ROllerozxa used chromebooks pour out from schools and other places. get an x86-based one, coreboot them and install proper linux on them, you'll definitely get something newer than opengl 2.1 22:58 MTDiscord Hey Noisytoot I found you this ultra high end gpu for 3 bucks https://www.ebay.com/itm/145184011287 22:58 MTDiscord Even has opengl 4.4 support 22:58 ROllerozxa marvelous 22:58 Noisytoot Minetest is playable (slow, but still playable) on my current computer and there's no good reason to change that. x86-based chromebooks will still have Intel ME. 22:59 Noisytoot It's not useful for me since this is a laptop, but does it even work with linux-libre? 22:59 nekobit Doc, im afraid its terminal... 22:59 MTDiscord it's ati, it's in the drm kmod island drivers 22:59 MTDiscord Aka, the legacy portion of that driver set 22:59 cheapie Noisytoot: AMD GPU's don't require any blobs to run on the CPU AFAIK, there is firmware but it runs on the GPU itself only. 23:01 nekobit I still dont understand the logic. What is the point of non-free firmware when you dont even know how the hardware itself is structured? Unless you know where every transistor is, is it really free? 23:02 Noisytoot You could use the same argument to say that free software is pointless 23:02 ireallyhateirc nonfree hardware running free software is still better than nonfree software running on nonfree hardware 23:03 MTDiscord Oi mate, I'm very sorry that your windows xp laptop will not be able to run minetest anymore 23:03 MTDiscord Have you considered upgrading to a vista core 2 duo so you can run gl 3.1 at least? 23:04 Noisytoot I am running GNU/Linux, not Windows, and this is a Core 2 Duo 23:04 MTDiscord Well I'm sorry your ubuntu 6.04 laptop cannot run opengl 3.1 23:05 MTDiscord How much ram does that thing happen to have? 23:05 cheapie (Is this the part where I be a pain for no reason and point out that it was 6.06?) 23:05 MTDiscord I'll never let them live it down 23:06 nekobit Noisytoot have i seen you before? 23:06 Noisytoot 8GB. And old hardware ≠ old software. The latest version of Linux still runs on it fine. 23:06 Noisytoot Yes. 23:07 MTDiscord Old hardware means that your bios is probably around 20 years out of date 23:07 nekobit Did you snitch on our free software channel and force us to move to rizon 23:07 nekobit didnt you? 23:07 Noisytoot no, I didn't even know it moved to rizon 23:07 nekobit It did 23:08 MTDiscord oo is there drama coming up 23:08 MTDiscord wait what I thought this was libera 23:08 MTDiscord this is liberachat 23:08 MTDiscord What in the tarnation is rizon 23:08 nekobit I wont forgive you 23:09 cheapie Rizon is the network where every channel is just "!list" over and over again 23:09 MTDiscord jordan4ibanez: it's an IRC network for AMD enthusiasts 23:09 nekobit Rizon was mostly used for file sharing and anime translations 23:10 nekobit libera is more of a tech/project focused chat 23:10 MTDiscord Wow this is some drama I did not expect and literally do not understand 23:10 nekobit its nothing drama, ill move on 23:10 MTDiscord But now is the moment where I cause the drama 23:11 MTDiscord Get a new laptop or a parts bin old desktop and shove an ancient graphics card in it that can run 3.1 good gravy 23:14 MTDiscord On the RPI4 you can pipe a pcie bus over some part of it which I do not remember to get a modern gpu running in it with a gpu cage 23:14 cheapie A workaround was already mentioned for the RPi 4/400, so I'm not so concerned about that now. 23:15 cheapie I still think the proposed requirements are obscenely high for what is (in the most common configurations) a pixelated block game, but they have been for ages, so *shrug* 23:16 Noisytoot There's nothing to forgive me for because I didn't do anything related to any channels moving to rizon 23:16 MTDiscord A pixelated block game which runs a complex shader algorithm on your gpu while banking lighting on your gpu and 23:16 MTDiscord literally, everything that you see 23:16 MTDiscord minetest can run in gl 1.0 from what I remember and crashes when it switches context 23:17 cheapie What does that actually accomplish? It looks about the same with shaders turned on or off and the performance is so bad that sometimes I wonder how much work the GPU is even doing in the first place. 23:17 MTDiscord So because you don't want to use it we have to hold back new features for people that want to use those features? 23:18 MTDiscord And the strawman of rpi 4 just doesn't sit right, that thing is not meant for gaming and barely runs desktop linux 23:18 Noisytoot New features should be implemented in a backwards-compatible way 23:18 cheapie I already mentioned the RPI 4/400 part of it was resolved (what, three times now?) 23:19 nekobit Noisytoot: from what I recall, you did 23:19 MTDiscord Well that would be great, if the ancient technology that is gl 2.1 was even compatible with the shader components that enable these new features 23:19 cheapie What are these new features? 23:20 MTDiscord I didn't see anyone angry about them removing burnings from the engine 23:20 cheapie burnings never actually worked. 23:20 Noisytoot nekobit: I got banned for a reason that was never explained (and I still don't know why), and since then have had nothing to do with that channel. But this is off-topic in here. 23:22 MTDiscord Well for one 23:22 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1260737846868840468/image.png?ex=6690691e&is=668f179e&hm=0df602c189926cf2488222f37d0f63eaa531629e36e9795d8b5d7a56b7c4d6d8& 23:22 MTDiscord Erle under a new name till they burn this one to? 23:22 cheapie Blurry clouds? 23:22 MTDiscord The volumetric clouds shader has absolutely no chance of running on gl 2.1 23:22 Noisytoot I'm not erle, if that's what you're saying 23:23 MTDiscord Then we have this whole host of lighting capabilities a very intelligent user created 23:23 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1260738235001344080/screenshot_20240504_203135.png?ex=6690697a&is=668f17fa&hm=f3239442077376420d6f340d1d813b7988b8bb0dd38381803cd31cf118e3945a& 23:23 Noisytoot There can be more than one user of old hardware 23:24 cheapie That one actually looks neat - not something I'd ever want to play using, but it looks like it would make for great screenshots. 23:26 Noisytoot Isn't that already implemented? OpenGL 2.1 support still exists, so adding that didn't require dropping support for OpenGL 2.1 23:26 MTDiscord Absolutely not 23:27 MTDiscord And if you're wondering why the performance is so utterly horrible, because with gl 2.1 being the cruise ship anchor that it is, implementation optimization of gl in general, forwards, gets held wayyyyyyy back because it's not capable of certain components of even gl 3.0 23:28 MTDiscord And we hop to just 3.1 we get instancing, tbo, and ubo 23:28 cheapie If you can manage at least like 25% better performance on OpenGL 3+ hardware by dropping support for anything older, then... sure, that easily outweighs the drawbacks of dropping support for 2.x a bit early. 23:29 MTDiscord Yes, that's probably why they want to do it 23:30 cheapie Just please don't keep basing the default settings off a 4090 or something and default to a view range of 250 just because it performs a bit less badly than it used to :P 23:30 MTDiscord You need to enable forward compatibility to get to 4.1 so you have actual opengl error output via glMessageDebugCallback so you're literally not guessing what errors are happening 23:30 cheapie (I would kind of like to know what sort of hardware was involved when that 190 was settled on, but I doubt that's documented anywhere) 23:31 MTDiscord The only hardware that the core developer team can test on is the hardware that they own 23:32 MTDiscord Hardware architecture is vastly different across generations, what might be extremely fast might be extremely slow 2 generations back and 3 generations forwards 23:33 cheapie I suppose it was also back when MTG was included, so I imagine it was probably tested with unmodded/lightly modded MTG... that also seems to generally perform somewhat better than most other games. 23:33 Noisytoot I disagree, but that's because I actually use OpenGL 2.1 and would rather be able to run minetest than not 23:34 MTDiscord That's not only because of minetest game is basically a skeleton of a game, basically no entities, no calculations during runtime, nothing. It's basically just a base on top of the engine to show you how to make a game with it 23:34 Noisytoot Isn't that the devtest game? 23:34 MTDiscord That's erle 23:35 cheapie Devtest is for testing, if you make a game around /that/ it's not going to be a very fun game. 23:36 cheapie FWIW I'm about 95% sure Noisytoot isn't erle, I've known Noisytoot for a few years now elsewhere and they've always been like this. 23:36 cheapie Also last time I talked to erle I think it was about OpenGL 1 :P 23:37 Noisytoot and my NickServ account was created the same day Libera was, they would've had to plan ban evasion quite far in advance 23:37 MTDiscord devtest needs a component added in to spawn in a few thousand of the same entity to test the instancing renderer 23:37 cheapie Noisytoot: I still have you beat on that :D 23:37 MTDiscord It should stress your gpu core, not the pcie bridge 23:37 ireallyhateirc installed Minetest on my stinkpad, 10 FPS with undersampling 5, opengl 2.1 23:38 ireallyhateirc Noisytoot, any tips to make it faster? 23:39 ireallyhateirc ok got 20 fps after setting view range to 50 nodes 23:40 cheapie On hardware that old I usually just set the view range to 20 and go from there. 23:40 Noisytoot ireallyhateirc: disable 3d clouds, dynamic shadows, waving *, and use simple or opaque leaves 23:41 cheapie BuckarooBanzai: I just now saw your message - I *am* generating the entire world (within a certain Y range) but there are no players connected or anything so the built-in command is fine. 23:42 cheapie I've been giving it new sections to work on periodically this week (whenever I have a chance to - not monitoring it from at work or anything) and it was about 3/4 done last time I did. 23:44 cheapie It's just unmodded MTG with mgvWTF (7) and default settings, mostly just doing this because I want to make a map of the whole world, because I can :P 23:45 Noisytoot I also have my unfocused FPS set to 3, which doesn't improve performance of minetest but does improve performance of other stuff while minetest is open but unfocused 23:45 cheapie minetestmapper still has the same old bug with crashing if a large area is specified, but breaking up the world into 16 map "tiles" and manually merging them afterwards isn't too bad. 23:45 ireallyhateirc got it to 30FPS by disabling shaders 23:57 MTDiscord What if you install slackware and use the base xorg implementation to run minetest? 23:59 cheapie Noisytoot: I'm kind of curious, actually - on your old laptop, what does MT run like using software rendering (llvmpipe - set LIBGL_ALWAYS_SOFTWARE=1)?