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| 08:54 |
kgdrenefort |
Hi, I found out what mod what eating 43Gb on my minetest server |
| 08:54 |
kgdrenefort |
Animilia, without it all is fine, once I set it up, and a player's connecting, in seconds I have already +10Gb used |
| 08:55 |
kgdrenefort |
while without it, well, with 2 players and a bunch of other mods we don't even reach 1Gb all the time for the server only. |
| 08:55 |
kgdrenefort |
but this seems like a very popular mod, so I'm wondering why I have this problem. |
| 09:16 |
kgdrenefort |
More details here: https://github.com/ElCeejo/animalia/issues/94 |
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MTDiscord |
<h4ndfu10ffr0gz> maybe it's a weird interaction between multiple mods |
| 09:42 |
kgdrenefort |
surely, I dunno for now. |
| 09:42 |
kgdrenefort |
I'm waiting for devs to ask me more if needed. |
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| 13:28 |
Amino |
gday everyone |
| 13:29 |
* Amino |
takes out his can opener and appies it to a can of worms |
| 13:30 |
Amino |
why does ContentDB list VoxeLibre (née MinecClone 2) under the url https://content.minetest.net/packages/Wuzzy/mineclone2/ ? |
| 13:31 |
Amino |
would it not have made more sense to create a _new_ page for VoxeLibre, keeping the MineClone2 page as is? |
| 13:32 |
Amino |
The way I see it, MineClone 2 developers have basically forked that game and are in the process of creating a new, substantially different, one instead |
| 13:33 |
Amino |
IMHO it would be fair and reasonable to leave MineClone 2 as it was to anyone willing to adopt it to continue developing it along its original purpose. |
| 13:35 |
Amino |
just look at the contentdb page (and url) for VoxeLibre; the url still hax wuzzy as creator/owner, mineclone2 as name and most the positive comments relate to the game being so close to minecraft |
| 13:37 |
Amino |
meanwhile, wuzzy has had nothing to with mineclone2 for years, the page title is now "VoxeLibre (formerly MineClone2)" and VoxeLibre's entire raison d'etre is to not be so much like minecraft anymore |
| 13:37 |
Amino |
I realize that this issue is a bit awkward in many ways to many people |
| 13:38 |
Amino |
but I sincerely think that this should be handled in a more logical and elegant fashion |
| 13:39 |
Amino |
that would also obviate the need for epicycles such as #14543 |
| 13:39 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/14543 -- Add gameid aliases by nauta-turbidus |
| 13:39 |
Amino |
just create a new game |
| 13:39 |
Amino |
that would also IMHO be more fair to users of MineClone 2 |
| 13:40 |
Amino |
they expect a minecraft like game, not something that does no longer aim for that |
| 13:40 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> you will have to ask the mineclone folks for details. but as i understand it, voxelibre is supposed to be a successor. there is no reason why mineclonians shouldn't be able to keep their worlds when upgrading to voxelibre. |
| 13:41 |
Amino |
it is actually not a service to the users of MineClone 2 to automatically migrate them to VoxeLibre |
| 13:41 |
Amino |
luatic: they're basically not the same game anymore |
| 13:41 |
Amino |
don't just ask the voxelibre people, ask the mineclone2 users! |
| 13:42 |
ROllerozxa |
mineclone2 is now called voxelibre. it's not a new game, it's the same game but rebranded |
| 13:42 |
ROllerozxa |
if you don't like the new direction they are going in then you will need to fork it |
| 13:43 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> to be frank this is not something i am very involved in, but it seems like something the voxelibre maintainers will need to sort out with their community |
| 13:44 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> i don't see why CDB or core devs would need to interfere here. |
| 13:46 |
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| 13:46 |
Amino |
ROllerozxa you say that voxelibre is mineclone2 and people who like mineclone2 more need to fork, I say voxelibre is actually the fork |
| 13:47 |
Amino |
luatic: the contentdb people already interfered by allowing mineclone2 to be renamed instead of doing the actual sensible thing, that is to create a new entry for voxelibre |
| 13:47 |
ROllerozxa |
voxelibre IS mineclone2. if you don't agree with the people who are working on the game and you cannot reach a resolution then you do in fact need to fork |
| 13:48 |
Amino |
I understand that this thing is somewhat loaded, but please step back and consider things reasonably |
| 13:48 |
Amino |
ROllerozxa consider the point of view of the game's users |
| 13:49 |
Amino |
they clearly expect a game that tries to resemble minecraft. Voxelibre's stated cause is to _not_ be that |
| 13:50 |
Amino |
by allowing voxelibre to automatically assume mineclone2's place, contentdb does users a disservice |
| 13:50 |
Amino |
yeah I understand that this is can be a bit hard to swallow |
| 13:51 |
Amino |
but lets try to keep reason and emotion separate |
| 13:51 |
Amino |
I try to understand the emotion |
| 13:51 |
Amino |
you try to understand the reason |
| 13:51 |
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| 13:51 |
ROllerozxa |
we're not going to force voxelibre to revert the rebranding just because you don't like it |
| 13:52 |
Amino |
it's not just about what I don't like, it's about what users might like or not |
| 13:52 |
Amino |
just look at the reviews on voxelibre's contentdb page |
| 13:52 |
Amino |
most are raving about how its a good copy of minecraft |
| 13:53 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Amino: I understand your frustration. You have two options. One, take it up with the VoxeLibre maintainers. I assume you already did that and did not arrive at a compromise. Then you're out of luck on that front, I'm afraid. The CDB team would need really strong reasons to override the decisions by the MCL2 / now VoxeLibre maintainers. Two, make a "faithful" fork, then you can put your fork up on CDB as well. Nobody will stop you from doing |
| 13:53 |
MTDiscord |
this. |
| 13:55 |
Amino |
I've read some of the mineclone2 history and I don't expect the voxelibre maintainers to agree that they are the ones who forked mineclone2 |
| 13:56 |
Amino |
I do have some hope that contentdb maintainers have more emotional distance to the subject and can see what the sensible way to go forward is |
| 13:57 |
Amino |
they may have made a (IMHO) mistake by agreeing to the voxelibre maintainers suggestion, but mistakes are human |
| 13:57 |
Amino |
correcting mistakes is reasonable |
| 13:57 |
Amino |
I believe that humans are capable of reason |
| 13:57 |
ROllerozxa |
what? |
| 14:01 |
Amino |
ROllerozxa: with all respect, I don't agree with your assessment that "voxelibre IS mineclone2" |
| 14:02 |
Amino |
more importantly, I believe that most mineclone2 users will not agree with you either |
| 14:02 |
Amino |
I don't want to create a heated debate or a flamewar here |
| 14:02 |
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| 14:03 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Put simply, the CDB team deals with package maintainers (modders), not with players. Unless there is a strong reason against it (such as the new name conflicting with another package), maintainers are allowed to rename their packages. I'm not sure why you expect the CDB team to override the decision by the VL maintainers on your behalf here. |
| 14:03 |
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| 14:03 |
Amino |
All I want it to point out a viepoint different from what has apparently been considered up toill now |
| 14:03 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> (Disclaimer: I'm not a part of teh CDB team.) |
| 14:03 |
Amino |
luatic: I am not objecting to renaming games or mods |
| 14:04 |
Amino |
it is about possibly doing users a disservice |
| 14:05 |
Amino |
IMHO voxelibre IS NOT mineclone2 and the voxelibre people have clearly stated their intent about that |
| 14:07 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> mineclone2 was passed through many hands of many maintainers. voxelibre is the current successor of mineclone, like it or not. if you're unhappy with this, you can make a more "conservative" fork, as the mineclonia people already did way before the rebranding. (btw, have you tried out mineclonia?) |
| 14:08 |
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| 14:10 |
Amino |
The issue is orthogonal of the existence of mineclonia (although I expect mineclone2 users to make an exodus to mineclonia once the automatic renaming/transitioning PR is added to minetest) |
| 14:11 |
Amino |
throughout the history of mineclone2 and the passing throught the hands of maintainers, mineclone2 has always remained mineclone2 with its stated aim to be a minecraft like game |
| 14:12 |
Amino |
but now, it has changed name to voxelibre ( a minor issue) and has changed its stated amin to not be a minecraft like game |
| 14:12 |
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| 14:14 |
MinetestBot |
[git] srifqi -> minetest/minetest: Trivial fix (forget to remove semicolon) in gettext.cpp bceef8f https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/bceef8f5293fb935a78d143976fe1a0eecfdf5de (2024-05-16T14:00:00Z) |
| 14:18 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Amino: Look, there is no hierarchy here. The core devs just make the platform / "engine". We don't really decide or want to decide how it is used. We only step in if absolutely necessary. So this is basically orthogonal to the responsibilities of the engine team. |
| 14:18 |
Amino |
agreed |
| 14:18 |
Amino |
this issue lies with the contentdb people first and foremost |
| 14:19 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> The ContentDB team has different responsibilities. They could block such a rename if they felt that it posed a major problem. But that doesn't seem to have been demonstrated yet. |
| 14:19 |
Amino |
but obviously, there is an overlap between minetest developers and contentdb maintainers |
| 14:19 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> That overlap is basically rubenwardy |
| 14:20 |
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| 14:21 |
Amino |
true, but I expect rubenwardy to not be operating on his own whims and be sensible to both minetest develpoment and the bigger informal community of minetest and mineclone2 users |
| 14:21 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Anyways, my two cents: Yes, MCL2 is rebranding, and changing their goals. That doesn't change the fact that it's the official successor to MCL2, by the official maintainers. It also won't have diverged significantly so far. |
| 14:21 |
Amino |
luatic I see your point |
| 14:21 |
Amino |
but I surmise that it is actually a substantial fork in the making |
| 14:22 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> The definition of fork is not "diverging from what it once was"; that is just the nature of actively developed software. A "fork" is something that branches off the original project. This is by definition not a fork. |
| 14:23 |
Amino |
given their stated aims (obviously not yet achieved) in one or two years time, public opinion might differ about the voxelibre being the successor of mineclone2 versus it being an obvious fork |
| 14:23 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Both "conservative" and "progressive" forks are a thing, as both "conservative" and "progressive" mainlines are a thing. |
| 14:23 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Amino: A successor need not be "conservative" / "faithful". |
| 14:23 |
Amino |
both conservative and progressive forks are forks |
| 14:24 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> A fork is defined by branching off the mainline |
| 14:24 |
Amino |
but please also consider the users' point of view |
| 14:24 |
Amino |
luatic another definition would be that every git commit creates a fork |
| 14:24 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> That definition is not useful |
| 14:24 |
Amino |
definition schmefiinition |
| 14:25 |
Amino |
not useful to whom? |
| 14:25 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> anyone |
| 14:25 |
Amino |
'/so you do speak for "anyone |
| 14:25 |
Amino |
? |
| 14:25 |
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| 14:25 |
Amino |
anyway, as I said before I don't want a flamewar |
| 14:26 |
Amino |
my main argument is the maineclone2 users' point of view |
| 14:26 |
Amino |
they expect a certain game, that they have been used to |
| 14:26 |
rubenwardy |
Rebranding or changing goals doesn't make it a different game in terms of ownership or continuity. So Mineclone2 is now Voxelibre, it's not a fork. If ContentDB forced them to make a new package it would be overstepping and detrimental to users (as they'd be stuck on an unmaintained game) |
| 14:26 |
Amino |
this is now changing |
| 14:27 |
Amino |
rubenwardy unmaintained might be temporary |
| 14:27 |
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| 14:28 |
sfan5 |
mineclone developers violating users expectations seems like not our problem |
| 14:28 |
sfan5 |
if you compare this with github I bet they would never prevent an user from renaming and rebranding their repository |
| 14:28 |
Amino |
if mineclone2 as it was gets picked up by people who want to continue developing it true to its original stated purpose, all you would have to do is change the repository link on contentdb (assuming voxelibre people do not want to cooperate and make their fork explicit by creating a new repo for voxelibre) |
| 14:30 |
Amino |
I'm not expecting to immediately convince any of you by arguments |
| 14:30 |
sfan5 |
(to extend this analogy if you move a github repository the old name will stay a redirect) |
| 14:30 |
Amino |
but please do take my arguments in honest consideration |
| 14:31 |
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| 14:31 |
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| 14:31 |
Amino |
it would be more sensible to mineclone2 users to rename mineclonia to mineclone2 |
| 14:31 |
Amino |
than to rename mineclone2 to voxelibre |
| 14:32 |
Amino |
I respect voxelibre's devs to take a different path |
| 14:32 |
Amino |
but I want to put forward the interests of the mincelone2 users |
| 14:32 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> you're speaking for mineclone2 users in generality here. do you actually have any data to back that up? |
| 14:32 |
Amino |
yes |
| 14:33 |
Amino |
look at the reviews on the mineclone2/voxelibre contentdb page |
| 14:33 |
sfan5 |
I see lots of thumbs ups |
| 14:33 |
Amino |
as I stated above, a substantial amount of positive reviews revolves around it aiming to be a true resemblance of minecraft |
| 14:33 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Amino: non sequitur |
| 14:34 |
Amino |
voxelibre has openly stated that they want to abandon that |
| 14:34 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> people are happy with what it is now does not imply that they will be unhappy with what it grows to be |
| 14:34 |
Amino |
sfan5 thumbs up at what time? |
| 14:34 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> you're drawing conclusions for mineclone2 users here which you can't draw |
| 14:34 |
Amino |
when it was still aiming to be a minecraft like game? |
| 14:34 |
sfan5 |
not sure if the page shows all reviews but most are a year or older |
| 14:35 |
Amino |
sfan5 exactly |
| 14:35 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> the only way to find out whether this upsets mineclone2 users majorly is to ask them about it. (and from what i've seen, the voxelibre maintainers are in touch with their community.) |
| 14:35 |
Amino |
luatic: I have no data about that |
| 14:35 |
sfan5 |
regardless I think this whole discussion bases on the incorrect premise that game branding is something the CDB maintainers should enforce on behalf of players or that development direction is the choice of anyone but the developer |
| 14:36 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> so i would even be inclined to believe that (hopefully) the maintainers have a better idea of what the community wants than you, even, unless proven otherwise. |
| 14:36 |
Amino |
sfan5 I agree that there is a bit of a grey area |
| 14:36 |
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| 14:37 |
Amino |
luatic: I consider the reviews for mineclone2 to be self-evident |
| 14:38 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> they aren't "self-evident". |
| 14:38 |
Amino |
sfan5 but my point is not about rebranding games or mods, which I consider a useful addition to minetest/contentdb, my point is entirely about voxelibre not being mineclone2 anymore |
| 14:39 |
Amino |
currently, the two are confused |
| 14:39 |
sfan5 |
it may be a grey area to you but my personal opinion is that the CDB team should should stray as far as possible from involving themselves in branding or development direction of a game (and it appears most relevant people agree) |
| 14:39 |
sfan5 |
Amino: that is a point you can exclusively take up with the MCL2/VL devs |
| 14:41 |
Amino |
sfan5 I don't understand how you define "most relevant people" |
| 14:44 |
sfan5 |
people from the CDB team or the core team, basically those who get to decide what happens to CDB |
| 14:47 |
Amino |
understood. I hope that you may understand that my remarks are not aimed at creating a heated debate, but at pointing out something that relevant people may have different thoughts about in a year's time |
| 14:48 |
Amino |
I'll leave it at that |
| 14:48 |
Amino |
thanks for your time and attention, hope I wasn't entirely a nuisance |
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definitelya |
> if mineclone2 as it was gets picked up by people who want to continue developing it true to its original stated purpose, all you would have to do is change the repository link on contentdb (assuming voxelibre people do not want to cooperate and make their fork explicit by creating a new repo for voxelibre) |
| 20:16 |
definitelya |
Amino: Comes across as fishy. Suppose you are an attacker; Mineclone 2 had many players. If an untrusted (by the official VoxeLibre team) party takes the reins, users would then be left with worse outcomes than a "disservice". |
| 20:17 |
definitelya |
Sorry for being untrusting. |
| 20:18 |
ireallyhateirc |
afaik Mineclone 2 is not protected by a trademark so anyone can fork it and put malware into it |
| 20:18 |
ireallyhateirc |
but then (most likely) it wouldn't appear at ContentDB |
| 20:19 |
ireallyhateirc |
tho I'm probably misunderstanding the conversation, had little sleep lol |
| 20:20 |
definitelya |
I'd take it up with the current maintainers, it's not something to take lightly IMO. |
| 20:27 |
ireallyhateirc |
Minetest generally is probably a bad target for malware |
| 20:27 |
ireallyhateirc |
you'd have more luck with Making Minecraft mods for that |
| 20:28 |
definitelya |
true |
| 20:36 |
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