Time Nick Message 08:54 kgdrenefort Hi, I found out what mod what eating 43Gb on my minetest server 08:54 kgdrenefort Animilia, without it all is fine, once I set it up, and a player's connecting, in seconds I have already +10Gb used 08:55 kgdrenefort while without it, well, with 2 players and a bunch of other mods we don't even reach 1Gb all the time for the server only. 08:55 kgdrenefort but this seems like a very popular mod, so I'm wondering why I have this problem. 09:16 kgdrenefort More details here: https://github.com/ElCeejo/animalia/issues/94 09:39 MTDiscord maybe it's a weird interaction between multiple mods 09:42 kgdrenefort surely, I dunno for now. 09:42 kgdrenefort I'm waiting for devs to ask me more if needed. 13:28 Amino gday everyone 13:29 * Amino takes out his can opener and appies it to a can of worms 13:30 Amino why does ContentDB list VoxeLibre (née MinecClone 2) under the url https://content.minetest.net/packages/Wuzzy/mineclone2/ ? 13:31 Amino would it not have made more sense to create a _new_ page for VoxeLibre, keeping the MineClone2 page as is? 13:32 Amino The way I see it, MineClone 2 developers have basically forked that game and are in the process of creating a new, substantially different, one instead 13:33 Amino IMHO it would be fair and reasonable to leave MineClone 2 as it was to anyone willing to adopt it to continue developing it along its original purpose. 13:35 Amino just look at the contentdb page (and url) for VoxeLibre; the url still hax wuzzy as creator/owner, mineclone2 as name and most the positive comments relate to the game being so close to minecraft 13:37 Amino meanwhile, wuzzy has had nothing to with mineclone2 for years, the page title is now "VoxeLibre (formerly MineClone2)" and VoxeLibre's entire raison d'etre is to not be so much like minecraft anymore 13:37 Amino I realize that this issue is a bit awkward in many ways to many people 13:38 Amino but I sincerely think that this should be handled in a more logical and elegant fashion 13:39 Amino that would also obviate the need for epicycles such as #14543 13:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/14543 -- Add gameid aliases by nauta-turbidus 13:39 Amino just create a new game 13:39 Amino that would also IMHO be more fair to users of MineClone 2 13:40 Amino they expect a minecraft like game, not something that does no longer aim for that 13:40 MTDiscord you will have to ask the mineclone folks for details. but as i understand it, voxelibre is supposed to be a successor. there is no reason why mineclonians shouldn't be able to keep their worlds when upgrading to voxelibre. 13:41 Amino it is actually not a service to the users of MineClone 2 to automatically migrate them to VoxeLibre 13:41 Amino luatic: they're basically not the same game anymore 13:41 Amino don't just ask the voxelibre people, ask the mineclone2 users! 13:42 ROllerozxa mineclone2 is now called voxelibre. it's not a new game, it's the same game but rebranded 13:42 ROllerozxa if you don't like the new direction they are going in then you will need to fork it 13:43 MTDiscord to be frank this is not something i am very involved in, but it seems like something the voxelibre maintainers will need to sort out with their community 13:44 MTDiscord i don't see why CDB or core devs would need to interfere here. 13:46 Amino ROllerozxa you say that voxelibre is mineclone2 and people who like mineclone2 more need to fork, I say voxelibre is actually the fork 13:47 Amino luatic: the contentdb people already interfered by allowing mineclone2 to be renamed instead of doing the actual sensible thing, that is to create a new entry for voxelibre 13:47 ROllerozxa voxelibre IS mineclone2. if you don't agree with the people who are working on the game and you cannot reach a resolution then you do in fact need to fork 13:48 Amino I understand that this thing is somewhat loaded, but please step back and consider things reasonably 13:48 Amino ROllerozxa consider the point of view of the game's users 13:49 Amino they clearly expect a game that tries to resemble minecraft.  Voxelibre's stated cause is to _not_ be that 13:50 Amino by allowing voxelibre to automatically assume mineclone2's place, contentdb does users a disservice 13:50 Amino yeah I understand that this is can be a bit hard to swallow 13:51 Amino but lets try to keep reason and emotion separate 13:51 Amino I try to understand the emotion 13:51 Amino you try to understand the reason 13:51 ROllerozxa we're not going to force voxelibre to revert the rebranding just because you don't like it 13:52 Amino it's not just about what I don't like, it's about what users might like or not 13:52 Amino just look at the reviews on voxelibre's contentdb page 13:52 Amino most are raving about how its a good copy of minecraft 13:53 MTDiscord Amino: I understand your frustration. You have two options. One, take it up with the VoxeLibre maintainers. I assume you already did that and did not arrive at a compromise. Then you're out of luck on that front, I'm afraid. The CDB team would need really strong reasons to override the decisions by the MCL2 / now VoxeLibre maintainers. Two, make a "faithful" fork, then you can put your fork up on CDB as well. Nobody will stop you from doing 13:53 MTDiscord this. 13:55 Amino I've read some of the mineclone2 history and I don't expect the voxelibre maintainers to agree that they are the ones who forked mineclone2 13:56 Amino I do have some hope that contentdb maintainers have more emotional distance to the subject and can see what the sensible way to go forward is 13:57 Amino they may have made a (IMHO) mistake by agreeing to the voxelibre maintainers suggestion, but mistakes are human 13:57 Amino correcting mistakes is reasonable 13:57 Amino I believe that humans are capable of reason 13:57 ROllerozxa what? 14:01 Amino ROllerozxa: with all respect, I don't agree with your assessment that "voxelibre IS mineclone2" 14:02 Amino more importantly, I believe that most mineclone2 users will not agree with you either 14:02 Amino I don't want to create a heated debate or a flamewar here 14:03 MTDiscord Put simply, the CDB team deals with package maintainers (modders), not with players. Unless there is a strong reason against it (such as the new name conflicting with another package), maintainers are allowed to rename their packages. I'm not sure why you expect the CDB team to override the decision by the VL maintainers on your behalf here. 14:03 Amino All I want it to point out a viepoint different from what has apparently been considered up toill now 14:03 MTDiscord (Disclaimer: I'm not a part of teh CDB team.) 14:03 Amino luatic: I am not objecting to renaming games or mods 14:04 Amino it is about possibly doing users a disservice 14:05 Amino IMHO voxelibre IS NOT mineclone2 and the voxelibre people have clearly stated their intent about that 14:07 MTDiscord mineclone2 was passed through many hands of many maintainers. voxelibre is the current successor of mineclone, like it or not. if you're unhappy with this, you can make a more "conservative" fork, as the mineclonia people already did way before the rebranding. (btw, have you tried out mineclonia?) 14:10 Amino The issue is orthogonal of the existence of mineclonia (although I expect mineclone2 users to make an exodus to mineclonia once the automatic renaming/transitioning PR is added to minetest) 14:11 Amino throughout the history of mineclone2 and the passing throught the hands of maintainers, mineclone2 has always remained mineclone2 with its stated aim to be a minecraft like game 14:12 Amino but now, it has changed name to voxelibre ( a minor issue) and has changed its stated amin to not be a minecraft like game 14:14 MinetestBot 02[git] 04srifqi -> 03minetest/minetest: Trivial fix (forget to remove semicolon) in gettext.cpp 13bceef8f https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/bceef8f5293fb935a78d143976fe1a0eecfdf5de (152024-05-16T14:00:00Z) 14:18 MTDiscord Amino: Look, there is no hierarchy here. The core devs just make the platform / "engine". We don't really decide or want to decide how it is used. We only step in if absolutely necessary. So this is basically orthogonal to the responsibilities of the engine team. 14:18 Amino agreed 14:18 Amino this issue lies with the contentdb people first and foremost 14:19 MTDiscord The ContentDB team has different responsibilities. They could block such a rename if they felt that it posed a major problem. But that doesn't seem to have been demonstrated yet. 14:19 Amino but obviously, there is an overlap between minetest developers and contentdb maintainers 14:19 MTDiscord That overlap is basically rubenwardy 14:21 Amino true, but I expect rubenwardy to not be operating on his own whims and be sensible to both minetest develpoment and the bigger informal community of minetest and mineclone2 users 14:21 MTDiscord Anyways, my two cents: Yes, MCL2 is rebranding, and changing their goals. That doesn't change the fact that it's the official successor to MCL2, by the official maintainers. It also won't have diverged significantly so far. 14:21 Amino luatic I see your point 14:21 Amino but I surmise that it is actually a substantial fork in the making 14:22 MTDiscord The definition of fork is not "diverging from what it once was"; that is just the nature of actively developed software. A "fork" is something that branches off the original project. This is by definition not a fork. 14:23 Amino given their stated aims (obviously not yet achieved) in one or two years time, public opinion might differ about the voxelibre being the successor of mineclone2 versus it being an obvious fork 14:23 MTDiscord Both "conservative" and "progressive" forks are a thing, as both "conservative" and "progressive" mainlines are a thing. 14:23 MTDiscord Amino: A successor need not be "conservative" / "faithful". 14:23 Amino both conservative and progressive forks are forks 14:24 MTDiscord A fork is defined by branching off the mainline 14:24 Amino but please also consider the users' point of view 14:24 Amino luatic another definition would be that every git commit creates a fork 14:24 MTDiscord That definition is not useful 14:24 Amino definition schmefiinition 14:25 Amino not useful to whom? 14:25 MTDiscord anyone 14:25 Amino '/so you do speak for "anyone 14:25 Amino ? 14:25 Amino anyway, as I said before I don't want a flamewar 14:26 Amino my main argument is the maineclone2 users' point of view 14:26 Amino they expect a certain game, that they have been used to 14:26 rubenwardy Rebranding or changing goals doesn't make it a different game in terms of ownership or continuity. So Mineclone2 is now Voxelibre, it's not a fork. If ContentDB forced them to make a new package it would be overstepping and detrimental to users (as they'd be stuck on an unmaintained game) 14:26 Amino this is now changing 14:27 Amino rubenwardy unmaintained might be temporary 14:28 sfan5 mineclone developers violating users expectations seems like not our problem 14:28 sfan5 if you compare this with github I bet they would never prevent an user from renaming and rebranding their repository 14:28 Amino if mineclone2 as it was gets picked up by people who want to continue developing it true to its original stated purpose, all you would have to do is change the repository link on contentdb (assuming voxelibre people do not want to cooperate and make their fork explicit by creating a new repo for voxelibre) 14:30 Amino I'm not expecting to immediately convince any of you by arguments 14:30 sfan5 (to extend this analogy if you move a github repository the old name will stay a redirect) 14:30 Amino but please do take my arguments in honest consideration 14:31 Amino it would be more sensible to mineclone2 users to rename mineclonia to mineclone2 14:31 Amino than to rename mineclone2 to voxelibre 14:32 Amino I respect voxelibre's devs to take a different path 14:32 Amino but I want to put forward the interests of the mincelone2 users 14:32 MTDiscord you're speaking for mineclone2 users in generality here. do you actually have any data to back that up? 14:32 Amino yes 14:33 Amino look at the reviews on the mineclone2/voxelibre contentdb page 14:33 sfan5 I see lots of thumbs ups 14:33 Amino as I stated above, a substantial amount of positive reviews revolves around it aiming to be a true resemblance of minecraft 14:33 MTDiscord Amino: non sequitur 14:34 Amino voxelibre has openly stated that they want to abandon that 14:34 MTDiscord people are happy with what it is now does not imply that they will be unhappy with what it grows to be 14:34 Amino sfan5 thumbs up at what time? 14:34 MTDiscord you're drawing conclusions for mineclone2 users here which you can't draw 14:34 Amino when it was still aiming to be a minecraft like game? 14:34 sfan5 not sure if the page shows all reviews but most are a year or older 14:35 Amino sfan5 exactly 14:35 MTDiscord the only way to find out whether this upsets mineclone2 users majorly is to ask them about it. (and from what i've seen, the voxelibre maintainers are in touch with their community.) 14:35 Amino luatic: I have no data about that 14:35 sfan5 regardless I think this whole discussion bases on the incorrect premise that game branding is something the CDB maintainers should enforce on behalf of players or that development direction is the choice of anyone but the developer 14:36 MTDiscord so i would even be inclined to believe that (hopefully) the maintainers have a better idea of what the community wants than you, even, unless proven otherwise. 14:36 Amino sfan5 I agree that there is a bit of a grey area 14:37 Amino luatic: I consider the reviews for mineclone2 to be self-evident 14:38 MTDiscord they aren't "self-evident". 14:38 Amino sfan5 but my point is not about rebranding games or mods, which I consider a useful addition to minetest/contentdb, my point is entirely about voxelibre not being mineclone2 anymore 14:39 Amino currently, the two are confused 14:39 sfan5 it may be a grey area to you but my personal opinion is that the CDB team should should stray as far as possible from involving themselves in branding or development direction of a game (and it appears most relevant people agree) 14:39 sfan5 Amino: that is a point you can exclusively take up with the MCL2/VL devs 14:41 Amino sfan5 I don't understand how you define "most relevant people" 14:44 sfan5 people from the CDB team or the core team, basically those who get to decide what happens to CDB 14:47 Amino understood.  I hope that you may understand that my remarks are not aimed at creating a heated debate, but at pointing out something that relevant people may have different thoughts about in a year's time 14:48 Amino I'll leave it at that 14:48 Amino thanks for your time and attention, hope I wasn't entirely a nuisance 20:15 definitelya > if mineclone2 as it was gets picked up by people who want to continue developing it true to its original stated purpose, all you would have to do is change the repository link on contentdb (assuming voxelibre people do not want to cooperate and make their fork explicit by creating a new repo for voxelibre) 20:16 definitelya Amino: Comes across as fishy. Suppose you are an attacker; Mineclone 2 had many players. If an untrusted (by the official VoxeLibre team) party takes the reins, users would then be left with worse outcomes than a "disservice". 20:17 definitelya Sorry for being untrusting. 20:18 ireallyhateirc afaik Mineclone 2 is not protected by a trademark so anyone can fork it and put malware into it 20:18 ireallyhateirc but then (most likely) it wouldn't appear at ContentDB 20:19 ireallyhateirc tho I'm probably misunderstanding the conversation, had little sleep lol 20:20 definitelya I'd take it up with the current maintainers, it's not something to take lightly IMO. 20:27 ireallyhateirc Minetest generally is probably a bad target for malware 20:27 ireallyhateirc you'd have more luck with Making Minecraft mods for that 20:28 definitelya true