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IRC log for #minetest, 2023-11-10

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Time Nick Message
00:01 MinetestBot [git] Wuzzy2 -> minetest/minetest: Fix bad translation function names in builtin (#13977) af474d1 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/af474d10a43b3e430c6f083132f1f12626a03a61 (2023-11-10T00:00:17Z)
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09:52 sfan5 @grorp probably not hard to implement, IIRC only some minor reworks needed in the code
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10:17 erle Lifetime unique downloads
10:17 erle 14
10:17 erle Downloads, past 7 days
10:17 erle 17 2 per day
10:17 erle rubenwardy how can this be?
10:18 rubenwardy how can what be
10:18 rubenwardy "unique"
10:19 rubenwardy some IP addresses downloaded more than once
10:19 erle ohhh that's what it means
10:19 erle thank you
10:19 erle makes sense, i already released 3 versions of xcam
10:20 erle rubenwardy are there any plans for making the screenshots that are shown in the content tab viewable in a bigger resolution in the client? i feel that would be a massive improvement.
10:21 rubenwardy yes: #13820
10:21 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/13820 -- Redesign main menu content browser by rollerozxa
10:21 erle thanks!
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10:54 erle rubenwardy is there any downside to setting item picture on the photos and still set the metadata? like, i can have photos in older versions of minetest (like 5.7) that have a static icon instead of dynamic, and it still would be dynamic in the new version, right?
10:56 erle explanation: you could still put the entities on the wall
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11:48 erle left photo has depth of field blur 0.5, right photo has depth of field blur 0.2, what is better? https://mister-muffin.de/p/6jvh.png
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18:06 DeepThgt i hope the bug that causes sunlight in caves at times never gets fixed
18:07 erle DeepThgt when exactly does that happen?
18:07 erle is the cave very big?
18:08 DeepThgt right now, im at the bottom of a hole being dug by a quarry, its about 14x14x500 right now
18:08 DeepThgt -12134 underground
18:09 DeepThgt https://imgur.com/W15TTDq.png
18:09 DeepThgt there is no light source anywhere near, and this has several thousand layers of rock above it
18:10 DeepThgt if i had to guess its due to the rest of the mapblocks above me not being in memory/sent to the client so it assumes sky is above
18:11 DeepThgt but thats an uneducated guess
18:14 DeepThgt which i guess is a polite way of saying i have no clue what the hell im talking about\
18:18 erle DeepThgt i am pretty sure that the light banks are calculated on the server
18:18 erle but i am not sure
18:18 erle wait i am
18:19 erle you can fix or fuck up light on the server
18:19 DeepThgt either way useful bug/feature
18:19 DeepThgt lol
18:20 DeepThgt someone correct me if im wrong, but isnt multicraft technically violating the lgpl
18:21 erle how?
18:21 erle what is it doing
18:22 DeepThgt You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code. If you link other code with the library, you must provide complete object files to the recipients, so that they can relink them with the library after making changes to the library and recompiling it.
18:22 DeepThgt how is that possible with multicraft on iOS
18:22 ROllerozxa DeepThgt: I don't think there's much anyone can do about it
18:22 DeepThgt so, im not wrong just crap all can be done?
18:23 mmuller If the copyright is FSF owned, the FSF could sue them.  They have in other circumstances.
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18:26 erle ROllerozxa uh i am sure you could just identify a copyright holder and sue
18:27 erle ROllerozxa that is how OpenWRT stuff got big
18:27 erle someone sued linksys or so
18:27 erle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Software_Foundation,_Inc._v._Cisco_Systems,_Inc.
18:27 erle > On May 20, 2009, the parties announced a settlement that included Cisco appointing a director to ensure Linksys products comply with free-software licenses, and Cisco making an undisclosed financial contribution to the FSF.[9][10]
18:28 erle the linksys WRT54GL marketing was VERY funny
18:28 erle it had like a warning sticker on the cardboard case it came in
18:28 erle CONTAINS GPL SOFTWARE or so
18:34 ROllerozxa erle: we would probably first need advice from a lawyer if the way they embed proprietary binary blobs into the engine violates the LGPLv2.1
18:36 ROllerozxa but I don't think there's many of the larger engine contributors who want to stick their head out for it, so... they can do whatever they want at this point, I guess
18:38 celeron55 because the contributions have been personally made, everyone would have to personally sue multicraft. that's generally not worth it if you're a human being with a limited lifespan and limited money
18:38 rubenwardy I think only major contributors would need to
18:38 celeron55 ah i don't mean "everyone" as in every contributor
18:38 celeron55 i mean everyone who sues
18:38 erle didn't that work out with busybox though?
18:38 rubenwardy ah, anyone not everyone
18:38 erle let me look it up
18:39 erle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Busybox#GPL_lawsuits
18:39 erle > In late 2007, BusyBox also came to prominence for actively prosecuting violations of the terms of its license (the GPL) in the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York.[17]
18:39 rubenwardy MT legal department time
18:39 erle > On December 14, 2009, a new lawsuit was filed naming fourteen defendants including Best Buy, JVC, Samsung and others.[29][30][31] In February 2010 Samsung released its LN52A650 TV firmware under GPLv2
18:40 celeron55 the main thing you need is a lawyer who thinks they'll make big money for themselves out of the gpl violator by suing them
18:40 erle you don't necessarily
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18:40 celeron55 after that it'll be reasonably easy
18:40 erle i mean some lawyers are actually also activists in a way
18:40 erle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Freedom_Law_Center
18:40 erle > The Software Freedom Law Center (SFLC) is an organization that provides pro bono legal representation and related services to not-for-profit developers of free software/open source software.
18:41 erle pro bono means for the public good
18:41 erle i.e. voluntarily and without necessarily a big payment
18:41 rubenwardy In this case, it's the terms of the app store that are dumb. Multicraft isn't withholding code afaik
18:41 celeron55 well they do need to get paid
18:42 celeron55 the thing about apple's app store is that in order to list your app you have to (statically?) link it with their proprietary libraries, right?
18:44 celeron55 LGPL allows it if you distribute also a version where you can replace the LGPL code and re-link with the libraries, and then use the result
18:45 celeron55 i have no idea whether multicraft is doing that in some way that could be considered "at least trying"
18:58 erle celeron55 what about sending them a letter asking for said object code to relink hehe
18:59 MTDiscord <warr1024> The problem is that no matter how much external foundations want to fund or assist, there's no way for a (C) lawsuit to go forward without any involvement whatsoever of an actual copyright holder, and I just don't think anyone is actually willing to deal with that.
19:00 erle if you can identify a non-trivial contribution of mine to minetest that has not be refucktored to be unrecognizable and i'll consider it
19:00 erle (git blame is not helping here sadly)
19:01 MTDiscord <warr1024> It would also need to be a contribution made early enough to be shared across the fork, so it's not like somebody could just get a PR merged now to make this work either.
19:03 erle i am pretty sure that the majority of my commit activity was in 2011 or so :P
19:03 erle but i am also pretty sure that almost all of that has been rewritten over time
19:05 MTDiscord <warr1024> I don't know if that disqualifies it though.  When code is modified or refactored, the resulting code doesn't just poof away your contributions, but it's actually probably a derivative.
19:05 MTDiscord <warr1024> You'd have to talk to a lawyer, ideally one of the aforementioned who specializes in this kind of shit, though.
19:05 celeron55 i think it's going to be very difficult if the current code doesn't resemble the original contribution at all
19:05 celeron55 not worth it
19:06 jonadab DeepThgt: The problem with share-alike-licensed anything on iOS isn't copyright; it's that uploading said content violates Apple's developer terms of service.  However, as far as I know, people who install and use it aren't violating anything.
19:06 MTDiscord <warr1024> A lot of it may come down to what they think they can get a jury to understand/believe (or what they think they can get the opposing counsel to believe that a jury would believe, to influence the settlement deal)
19:06 erle well i did add the rail drawtype, how much could it have changed over time? :D
19:06 erle and the 3d clouds lol
19:06 jonadab (This is assuming that there's a public website where the source code can be downloaded, of course.)
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19:07 celeron55 erle: both have gone through at least one heavy refactor
19:07 celeron55 you'd have to manually read the code and see
19:21 erle haha, i just realized i am the only person who can print minetest logo on shirt without having to also print a creative commons attribution hint hehehe
19:21 erle (legally)
19:22 erle i wonder how i can spurdofy that logo
19:22 erle if i figure it out i will print one and offer to send it to a place of choice of celeron55 hehehe
19:22 erle maybe just instead of the oerkki (add it back in!!!) have a spurdo lurk in the cave
19:23 erle anyways, i think i found a good use case for unicode_text that does not create signs
19:23 erle speech bubbles that display unicode
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19:33 celeron55 if you design a shirt even remotely related to minetest and get it printed at a reputable place for a reasonable price i'm sure multiple people would like to buy them
19:34 celeron55 of course a spurdo might act as a deterrent. certainly not for me though
19:35 rubenwardy I read speedo there. Minetest speedos when?
19:35 celeron55 "it was finnished all along"
19:40 ROllerozxa minetest shirts? o.o
19:40 jonadab minetest Halloween costumes when?
19:45 MTDiscord <bla8722> minetest shirts without attribution already sound like scary Halloween costume 😉
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19:45 MTDiscord <lemente> @erle print the entire CC license at the back of the shirt, or on a very long shirt tag
19:45 erle yes lol
19:46 MTDiscord <lemente> well, not you I guess though you could still do it by choice
19:46 celeron55 the only person who could print the logo without the license decides to print his face plus the entire license on the shirt, with a small minetest logo at the corner
19:46 erle anyone else wearing it would be violating the license haha
19:47 erle the shirt i got today was this one (made it in inkscape, CW: very slightly lewd) https://mister-muffin.de/p/FDfV.jpg
19:48 erle the people from the copyshop that also does shirts seemed a bit amused that i wanted this shirt to be printed and also spurdo stickers hehe
19:48 jonadab I don't think that's how copyright law works.  It's the person who distributes the copies (in this case, the person selling the shirt) who is principally responsible for any infringement.  I don't think _wearing_ the shirt would violate anything, unless distributing it does so.
19:49 jonadab So if the copyright holder is selling the shirt, anybody who buys it can wear it, I believe.
19:49 erle but if you photograph it and the license is on the back then the backface culling of nature will make you violate the licensing hehe
19:49 erle :D
19:49 erle unless you and the shirt are transparent obv
19:49 celeron55 yes if the print on the shirt is the main point of the photo, then yes
19:49 MTDiscord <lemente> being photographed in the shirt and distributing that photo could be an issue though
19:49 celeron55 and you redistribute the photo without adding the CC license hint
19:50 erle well, the print on that shirt is the main point of the image
19:50 ROllerozxa erle: lol is that cat ears on the O there
19:50 erle i'm wearing it ^_^
19:50 jonadab If you hang up the shirt as straight as possible and photograph it to create an image of the logo, that violates copyright, yes.
19:50 jonadab If you take a photo of a group of people and one of them is wearing the shirt, this is where the word "transformative" becomes highly relevant.
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19:50 erle ROllerozxa happy that it's recognizable. here's the SVG: http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/pics/zeichnungen/onlytrans.svg
19:51 erle i also thought of making some that says OnlyFriends
19:51 ROllerozxa omg I didn't even notice it said "onlytrans" lmao, I just saw the cat ears on it
19:52 erle guess my jokes have layers
19:52 erle (because they are delivered in SVG form)
19:53 jonadab SVG doesn't have layers; it has objects, which is not exactly the same thing.  For layers, use .xcf
19:53 erle i guess this can be considered a success hehehehe
19:53 erle damn nerds
19:53 erle <g> is very useful though
19:55 MTDiscord <bla8722> minetest logo shirt with CC printed on top with photosensitive color lol
19:56 erle minetest logo shirt but intentionally rendered gamma-incorrect
19:56 erle “the blonde who knows about fabric printing” (that's what her coworkers called her) started laughing when i asked about if the printer is gamma-correct actually
19:57 jonadab Color rotated, R->G->B->R
19:57 erle she was like “COME ON, most people here come with random JPEGs they downloaded”
19:57 erle then she showed me that one of their printers has a fucky colorspace
19:57 erle she had printed some dots on a shirt
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19:57 erle and pointed to two purple ones and said “one of those, i do not remember which one, was supposed to be blue“
19:58 erle jokingly i pointed out two orange dots and was like “so was one of these supposed to be red?”
19:58 erle and she said “yes” and sighed lol
19:58 erle the test prints at the store feature darkwing duck and gargoyles
19:58 erle makes it easy to estimate the ages of the employees responsible for those hehe
19:59 erle the story behind the fucky colorspace was apparently that the printer is a bit older
19:59 erle and the one guy who knew how to calibrate it stopped responding
19:59 erle so now they do not know how to do it
19:59 erle and just tell people well if you want that on your shirt, the colors are going to be a bit off: no 100% blue, no 100% red
20:00 jonadab I mean, one of those things is very modern (1990s IIRC) and the other is medieval.
20:00 erle uh
20:00 erle gargoyles was a tv show
20:00 jonadab ...  I see.
20:00 erle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gargoyles_(TV_series)
20:00 jonadab I thought it was an architectural feature.
20:00 erle > aired from October 24, 1994 to February 15, 1997
20:00 erle > Gargoyles was noted for its relatively dark tone, complex story arcs, and melodrama; character arcs were heavily employed throughout the series, as were Shakespearean themes.
20:01 erle i am amazed sometimes what passed for children's series back in the days hehe
20:01 erle though i am pretty sure that today the same is true
20:01 jonadab Technically, I think Darkwing Duck originated in the late eighties, but he didn't get his own show until, umm, not sure exactly when, but later.
20:01 erle [[random magical girl existential crisis mode activated]]
20:01 erle i knew darkwing duck WAY before i knew he was a batman rip-off
20:02 jonadab He was a batman ripoff, specifically?
20:02 jonadab I mean, I knew he was obviously a spoof comic-book superhero character.
20:02 jonadab But I hadn't made the connection to Batman.
20:03 erle well he is not super rich
20:03 erle hmm
20:03 erle but he relies on his gadgets
20:03 jonadab No, all the money in that franchise belonged to Scrooge.
20:03 jonadab I mean, Gizmoduck also relies on gadgets.
20:03 erle > arkwing Duck himself is a satirical character. His costume, gas gun and flashy introductions are all reminiscent of pulp heroes and Golden Age superheroes such as The Shadow, The Sandman, Doc Savage, Batman, The Green Hornet and the Julius Schwartz Flash, as well as The Lone Ranger and Zorro.
20:03 erle haha arkwing
20:04 jonadab Ok, yes, *that* paragraph makes sense to me.
20:04 erle “arkwing duck” sounds like the ace combat strangereal version
20:04 jonadab Although I only know about half of those characters.  Was never into comic books.
20:04 erle well the thing is
20:04 erle st. canard, the city
20:04 erle is a lot like gothham
20:04 erle i bet i got the batman vibes from that
20:04 erle btw, i think the greatest in terms of aesthetics is tale spin
20:04 erle in german: balu und seine crew
20:05 erle it pretty much nails the interwar aesthetic
20:05 jonadab I always figured Gotham was basically New York City, except not explictly saying so.
20:05 jonadab Same as Metropolis.
20:05 erle you have flying boats and art deco
20:06 erle finding out that the catalina PBY was a real airplane was a weird moment
20:06 erle (the “sea duck” plane that captain balu flies in tale spin)
20:06 erle https://talespin.fandom.com/wiki/Sea_Duck
20:07 jonadab Right, I knew float planes were real, didn't know that one was modeled after a *specific* model of real-world plane, but it looked typical of the genre, albeit cartoonified.
20:07 erle > The Sea-Duck is based on a combination of the Fairchild C-82 Packet, Grumman HU-16 Albatross (made by Grumman, the predecessor company of Northrop Grumman) and Consolidated PBY Catalina.
20:07 erle yeah and they got these little things right
20:07 erle like the mass medium is radio
20:08 erle very indiana jones-y
20:08 erle and very pulp
20:08 jonadab My sister (who was still in elementary school at the time) was super into Duck Takes.
20:08 erle duck takes lol
20:08 jonadab *Tales
20:08 erle hot take
20:09 erle and i liked sheer khan as the evil-but-not-too-evil corporate type
20:09 jonadab I only know Sheer Khan from Jungle Book.
20:09 erle you should watch tale spin a bit then ig
20:09 erle pretty nice jungle book character remix
20:09 jonadab I saw a couple of episodes of it, back when it was current?
20:10 erle i think the only other series that amazed me with design as much as tale spin did was farscape
20:10 jonadab But I never cared about it.
20:10 erle because everything was alien
20:10 jonadab (I was much too old for it by the time it came out.)
20:10 erle and the peacekeepers (the authoritarian antagonists) spaceships and space stations have interior design inspired by el lissitsky
20:10 erle i doubt you can be too old for some series
20:10 jonadab The cartoons I liked most as a kid, mostly involved Bugs Bunny.
20:10 erle all these little historical references are built in for the adults
20:11 erle who maybe also watch it at times
20:11 jonadab When I think of a cartoon that stands up for adults, I think of Animaniacs.
20:12 jonadab Although I expect the old Bugs Bunny ones would too, if we all hadn't already seen them all a hundred billion times as kids.
20:12 jonadab (Except for the ones they stopped showing because they were wartime caricatures of enemy-nation ethnicities...)
20:13 jonadab (THOSE ones we didn't see much as kids.)
20:13 jonadab (Because I am not THAT old.)
20:14 erle what about neon gender evangelion
20:14 erle “get in the fucking skirt shinji”
20:14 erle :D
20:14 jonadab The word "shinji" sounds Japanese; other than that I have no idea what you're on about now.
20:18 erle jonadab https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_Genesis_Evangelion
20:18 erle > The protagonist is Shinji Ikari, a teenage boy who gets recruited by his father Gendo to the mysterious organization Nerv to pilot a giant biomechanical mecha called an Evangelion and fight against beings known as Angels.
20:18 erle featuring biblically accurate angels
20:19 jonadab Yeah, I think I had largely stopped paying any attention at all to television by the time that came out.
20:19 jonadab 1995, I was in college and had more pressing things to do with my time.
20:20 erle you probably older than me ig
20:20 erle jonadab here is a swedish summary of that series https://onion.tube/watch?v=-H48GPv4BZI
20:20 erle if you like sweded movies
20:20 celeron55 i think i watched NGE some years ago but i don't remember almost any of it. i must have fallen asleep on every episode or something
20:20 erle “sweded” is like spurdo for movies lol
20:20 erle celeron55 watch like 30 seconds of that video if you want a refresher (and then watch the rest if you like the weird style)
20:21 erle i like how shitty it is made
20:21 erle like all their props
20:21 erle looks just like what they had at hand or so
20:22 jonadab I pretty much entirely lost interest in television once I had internet access; which we had on campus when I was in college, starting in 1993.
20:23 erle well evangelion is something else
20:23 erle don't watch it alone
20:23 jonadab So shows that came out after that, I only know about if other people are constantly talking about them (e.g. Spongebob).
20:23 erle it's fucking depressing
20:24 celeron55 i think it was way too japanese, way too mech and way too 25 years old to actually register with anything pre-existing in my brain so my brain just dropped it as it streamed in
20:24 erle hahaha, on clamity there was a CSM used nicknamed spongebot
20:24 erle it was because some griefers watercubed spawn
20:24 erle but it was not a real watercube, only a layer of water sources above spawn
20:24 erle to drown new players
20:25 erle so people like cora and lizzy used their cheat clients to dupe sponges and randomly scatter them in the sky
20:25 erle so when i first joined clamity there was this really weird experience of a totally destroyed spawn
20:25 jonadab This is what the areas mod is for.  Even if you don't want normal users creating protected areas for some reason, spawn should be admin protected.
20:25 erle except for rail lines
20:25 erle which cora used to rebuild using railbot CSM
20:26 erle like if a server has a rail network hat goes from the origin to the map borders in a straight line you can be pretty sure it was made using coras railbot
20:26 erle there will also be a circle line at about +/- 1337 on x and z
20:26 erle so i joined there
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20:26 erle and saw the sponge sky
20:27 erle and was pretty confused
20:27 erle like it was the WEIRDEST experience
20:27 erle later i had fun creating weird experiences for other players on servers hehe
20:27 erle like when i made a giant hole in the nether roof on kay27's mineclone5 server at nether spawn.
20:27 erle and then patched it up
20:27 erle with TNT and a thin layer of netherrock
20:28 erle i also placed a button there
20:28 erle to ignite the TNT
20:28 jonadab At one point on li-fo I discovered that when chainsaws removed logs it didn't trigger adjacent sand or gravel to fall, so I made a pavillion with a sand roof.
20:28 erle it was very funny being in the area when some random player pressed that random button
20:28 erle and then everything exploded and there was a big hole in the roof
20:28 erle (the roof was made out of bedrock, so that must have been confusing)
20:29 erle (bedrock is indestructible, usually, but people keep finding ways to remove it, usually by spawning structures into it)
20:29 jonadab That happens on MC also.
20:29 jonadab Except there it usually involves pistons.
20:29 erle i did something like the falling sand thing too! i discovered that in mineclone2 burning up wood did not trigger the falling check
20:30 jonadab (pistons and explosions, in strange combinations.)
20:30 erle so i made floating sand obstacle course
20:30 erle i also gifted some illegal items (i.e. ones you should not ever be able to get as a normal player, but i had them) to my then-boyfriend in the game :3
20:30 erle i should play more anarchy minetest
20:30 erle it is so fun to do things
20:30 erle that should not be possible
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20:41 MTDiscord <lemente> I'd like to make an anarchy game. Except it would actually be anarchy, with horizontal decision making tools and such.
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