| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:00 |
erle |
wait are you saying there isn't a lone guy doing this but like lots of them? |
| 00:00 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I think it's like an entire genre, yeah, and you can find shit going back like a hundred years or more... |
| 00:02 |
erle |
i mean i know people label some stuff |
| 00:02 |
erle |
but like |
| 00:03 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_cartoon ... you can see a lot of examples here where there's a LOT of labeling going on. |
| 00:04 |
erle |
damn you are right |
| 00:04 |
erle |
so garrison is just like 100 years behind the times caricature-style wise ig? |
| 00:05 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I dunno, I'm not very familiar with is work specifically but it does seem to fit in with the overall tradition. A lot of the other examples I've seen also express views that, let's just say, have not aged well when viewed by a modern audience... |
| 00:05 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Like hold up, Dr. Seuss did racist cartoons? I never noticed before. |
| 00:06 |
erle |
i'm pretty sure that garrison uses more labels though |
| 00:06 |
erle |
rational wiki has Garrison's Law: “The more labels you have, the more effective your cartoon is.” |
| 00:06 |
erle |
hehe |
| 00:08 |
erle |
though i must even with the labels i do not understand what ”trump as don quixote fighting windmills” is supposed to say LOL https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/File:Garrison_Quixote.jpeg |
| 00:09 |
erle |
Warr1024 i think being racist was a bit of a thing back then |
| 00:10 |
erle |
(it still is, i guess, but it also was) |
| 00:13 |
erle |
Warr1024 apparently 6 books from dr. seuss are no longer published because of racist imagery https://www.vox.com/culture/22309286/dr-seuss-controversy-read-across-america-racism-if-i-ran-the-zoo-mulberry-street-mcgelliots-pool |
| 00:18 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Yeah, it's weird when I look at a historical icon and see the racism because I have to also look up what the level of Cosmic Background Racism was at the time for comparison. |
| 00:19 |
erle |
yeah, comparisons are important! as a friend of mine once told me “you have to understand the racism in the works of H.P. lovecraft in the context of the time – he was extremely racist even for his era” |
| 00:24 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Medusa's Coil was so racist that it made Lovecraft seem kinda comical. Like, after reading the ending, it became super hard to take him seriously. Like, Lovecraft's eldritch outer dimensions with unspeakable betentacled horrors turns out to just be your average inner city Long John Silver's. |
| 00:27 |
erle |
well, i generally have difficulties taking people seriously who make hating others a big part of their identity |
| 00:28 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Yeah, it just sucks when you have to suddenly find out about it after you had been enjoying taking them seriously before. |
| 00:29 |
DeepThgt |
i find it much simpler to ignore artists political opinions |
| 00:29 |
DeepThgt |
or entertainers for that matter |
| 00:29 |
erle |
that's sometimes possible, sometimes not |
| 00:30 |
DeepThgt |
if i had to ignore people based off ideology/morals, id find it hard to talk to anywone or enjoy anything |
| 00:30 |
erle |
for some authors, their works themselves are soapboxes from which they cry their ideology |
| 00:30 |
DeepThgt |
at times amusingly thats untrue |
| 00:30 |
DeepThgt |
like ayn rand |
| 00:30 |
DeepThgt |
who died accepting charity |
| 00:31 |
erle |
this is even true with software |
| 00:31 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Being able to ignore their views would make it possible to enjoy their works again but I'm not sure if I can just choose to ignore those views and continue enjoying without somehow endorsing those views myself. |
| 00:32 |
erle |
for example, urbit is written by a monarchist and when i looked at the way it was structured, it showed (do not learn urbit, the hoon programming language is a literal scam that uses annotations to execute fast c code with a questionable correspondence to the hoon code) |
| 00:33 |
erle |
for a popular somewhat-contemporary literary work, you can just look at the topic of slavery in harry potter. the house elves work without payment! many of them do not want to be freed! |
| 00:34 |
DeepThgt |
i dont hate harry potter for the authors views |
| 00:34 |
DeepThgt |
i hate harry potter because its horrible fiction |
| 00:34 |
erle |
yeah lol |
| 00:34 |
DeepThgt |
i flat out dont care about artists views because usually they are horrifically uninformed |
| 00:34 |
DeepThgt |
you dont have time to develop art and learn things |
| 00:35 |
erle |
oh but they are interesting for interpretation |
| 00:35 |
DeepThgt |
so, thats why i dont feel like im endorsing anyones views or anything |
| 00:35 |
DeepThgt |
i just dont care of the opinions of a dancing monkey |
| 00:35 |
DeepThgt |
they are there to dance and should sftu and dance |
| 00:36 |
erle |
for example, do you know the movie starship troopers? at least some people who did not know it was made by a guy who hates nazis misunderstood it (though i would argue that neill patrick harris in the leather uniform is the point where you should realize the protagonists are NOT the good guys) |
| 00:36 |
DeepThgt |
i have heard it was an attempt at lampooning the original story |
| 00:37 |
DeepThgt |
but it falls flat at that |
| 00:37 |
DeepThgt |
and just comes off as camp |
| 00:37 |
DeepThgt |
the only real message one gets outta the movie is the only good bug is a dead one |
| 00:37 |
erle |
did you watch it? |
| 00:37 |
DeepThgt |
several times |
| 00:37 |
erle |
it is very campy, but in the same way that the lion king is campy |
| 00:37 |
erle |
(scar's song) |
| 00:38 |
erle |
i think one of the best scenes is the gender-neutral shower scene. you have all these beautiful young soldiers … but they only talk about war. they are horny, but only for violence! |
| 00:39 |
DeepThgt |
well, i imagine war is a common topic when at war, and they also discuss love in the same scene |
| 00:39 |
erle |
it's a bit like contemporary superhero movies. everybody beautiful, but no one flirting. |
| 00:39 |
DeepThgt |
eww capesh |
| 00:40 |
erle |
(i'd argue that superhero movies that are not at least partial deconstructions are also inherently right-wing, regardless of the opinions of the authors) |
| 00:41 |
DeepThgt |
i cannot say im intimately familiar with superhero franchises, but i cannot say id see anything id call right wing, unless you are referrirng to what americans call right wing |
| 00:41 |
DeepThgt |
right wing is pro monarchy or theocracy |
| 00:42 |
erle |
well, a lot of superhero movies are very authoritarian in structure. those who want to change the world are the villians (even if they have good intentions). the superhero keeps the status quo, through violence. |
| 00:42 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> that is a very weird definition of right wing |
| 00:42 |
DeepThgt |
either way, not minetest so im gonna stfu |
| 00:42 |
erle |
luatic good that you are there, can you help me fix the horizon in xcam? |
| 00:43 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> probably not (i should be going to bed soon-ish), but what's up with it? |
| 00:43 |
erle |
DeepThgt btw if you want to make that camera crafting mod, you you need more than an api that says ”snap a photo for this player and give them the item” ? |
| 00:43 |
DeepThgt |
no |
| 00:43 |
erle |
not even image size or field of view or so? |
| 00:44 |
DeepThgt |
fov ya |
| 00:44 |
erle |
or rendering quality? (supersampling) |
| 00:44 |
erle |
luatic https://content.minetest.net/uploads/906fd58f4e.png |
| 00:44 |
DeepThgt |
well, idk how fov would help tbh |
| 00:44 |
erle |
luatic as you can see the thing is slightly off |
| 00:44 |
erle |
i do calculate the vectors the following way |
| 00:44 |
erle |
local dir = girl:get_look_dir() |
| 00:44 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> so basically your left / right or up vector is probably off |
| 00:45 |
erle |
local right = vector.normalize( vector.new( { x=dir.z, y=dir.y, z=-dir.x } ) ) |
| 00:45 |
erle |
local down = vector.normalize( dir:cross( right ) ) |
| 00:45 |
erle |
see any issues with that? |
| 00:45 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> the right vector is sketchy |
| 00:46 |
erle |
a friend told me this is the ghetto version of rotating it by 90 degrees lol |
| 00:46 |
erle |
i believed her, she seemed trustworthy |
| 00:46 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> clever ... though I think I usually cross +y with lookdir to get right. |
| 00:46 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> yeah but rotating it around what axis? |
| 00:46 |
erle |
also she said something about matrix and quaternion |
| 00:46 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I guess it doesn't work in gimbal lock, but neither would swapping x/z |
| 00:46 |
erle |
and that i should do this differently |
| 00:46 |
erle |
to not gimbal lock |
| 00:46 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> wise words, but my existing quaternion implementation has skill issues |
| 00:47 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> well at least the API somewhat sucks |
| 00:47 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> i think it works? |
| 00:47 |
erle |
do you have tests? |
| 00:47 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> no |
| 00:47 |
erle |
LOL |
| 00:47 |
erle |
then i don't think it works :P |
| 00:47 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> that is a fair assumption |
| 00:47 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> hence why i want to rewrite it, with test |
| 00:47 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> s |
| 00:47 |
erle |
there is too much that can go wrong |
| 00:47 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> agreed |
| 00:48 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> for example i don't seem to have even documented which conventions i'm following? |
| 00:48 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> like, how is the coordinate system oriented? |
| 00:48 |
erle |
i suggest to look into TDD and get some reviewer who is not familiar with your code |
| 00:48 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> i know how to write tests, i just didn't care enough |
| 00:48 |
erle |
if you have no issues with me asking questions like i am 5 years old and doing this for the first time, i can do that |
| 00:49 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> (i am aware that this untested impl is not up to high standards, in part by virtue of being untested alone) |
| 00:49 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> if you want tested pure lua stuff from me, take a look at https://github.com/TheAlgorithms/Lua |
| 00:49 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> sadly i don't have a reviewer scrutinizing my code there |
| 00:51 |
erle |
from my POV the trick with testing first is that you end up writing APIs that are easy to use |
| 00:51 |
erle |
instead of easy to implement |
| 00:51 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> you need to find a tradeoff between the two |
| 00:51 |
erle |
well, i have seen enough software with test cases that were obviously bolted on afterwards |
| 00:52 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> if i write the tests second, i do notice API deficiencies |
| 00:52 |
erle |
the funniest thing so far is apenwarr redo, the ”recursive” build system that can not recurse on itself because of some strange choice of data structure. |
| 00:52 |
erle |
within it's testsuite it needs to do cursed things with the database holding the build state, otherwise the tests that call redo themselves would not pass. |
| 00:53 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Who is apenme and why do you keep mentioning them |
| 00:53 |
erle |
lol |
| 00:53 |
erle |
that took me way too long |
| 00:53 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> App'n'warr? |
| 00:54 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> 🤷 |
| 00:54 |
erle |
avery pennarun |
| 00:54 |
erle |
oh btw |
| 00:54 |
erle |
is there a name for the extremely-well made style of journalistic presentation where people gloss over important details, like johnny harris for example? |
| 00:55 |
erle |
i keep noticing this kind of thing, where people do not lie and do not seem to have any kind of ideological reason, but they smooth over details that are inconvenient to telling a good story |
| 00:55 |
erle |
because they are, for example, difficult to explain in 3 sentences or are incredibly nuanced |
| 00:56 |
erle |
this kind of stuff also happens in software, to an extent. you can not bullshit the computer, but you can simply pretend in the documentation that something does not exist and most users will not notice if it is well-hidden hehe |
| 00:56 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> "fitting the narrative"? |
| 00:56 |
DeepThgt |
i thought that was just journalistic SOP |
| 00:57 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> you say i can not bullshit the computer, but i got a bull, and i can fit quite a bit of its shit into the computer case. |
| 00:57 |
erle |
luatic i always thought that was the name for doing it out of ideological reasons |
| 00:57 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> mhm, does a narrative need to be ideologically motivated? |
| 00:57 |
erle |
i want one that purely covers the storytelling aspect though |
| 00:57 |
erle |
hmmmmmmm |
| 00:57 |
erle |
smilie_thonk.jpg |
| 00:58 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> "narrative" is a term from storytelling |
| 00:58 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> "a spoken or written account of connected events; a story" |
| 00:58 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Ideology isn't always a thing that the speaker is consciously aware of. |
| 00:59 |
erle |
yeah, obviously there is a lot of cultural osmosis going on |
| 00:59 |
erle |
(see: every story influenced by lovecraftian horror ever) |
| 01:00 |
erle |
for something completely different, what do you do with the leftover water-vinegar-spices mixture from a jar of pickles? i found that cooking rice in it gives it an incredible taste |
| 01:00 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> anyways erle for debugging, set up some particles; spawn them every globalstep, give them a short expiration time. spawn a particle at eye pos + look dir. that should be at the center of the screen. spawn a particle at eye pos + look dir + right. that should be, well, to the right of the center. if those two particles are correct, an "up" vector obtained as the cross product of the two should be correct too (though you may need to flip some |
| 01:00 |
MTDiscord |
signs). |
| 01:01 |
erle |
luatic nice tip. i already did it by just spawning the “lens” through which i cast though. this is why i *know* the thing is wrong. |
| 01:01 |
erle |
i just don't know how to construct the correct one |
| 01:01 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> it isn't easy. |
| 01:02 |
erle |
well, i didn't do it because it was easy |
| 01:02 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> i think i had this issue a while ago. i think i might've even "solved" it pretty much the way you now "solved" it. but i also think it probably didn't matter, because my spread was circular. |
| 01:02 |
erle |
i did it because i thought it was easy when i came up with it 2 days ago |
| 01:02 |
erle |
wdym? |
| 01:02 |
erle |
like what was your problem? |
| 01:02 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> yeah, now i remember. i did this twice: once for spiraling down, once for adv weapons. both have, well, weapons, and the weapons need spread, and that spread needs to be orthogonal to the look dir. |
| 01:02 |
|
isAAAc left #minetest |
| 01:03 |
erle |
well that is exactly what i need |
| 01:03 |
erle |
and circular vs rectangular is not really an issue is it? |
| 01:03 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> you need the "right" vector to not be rotated |
| 01:03 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> otherwise you get the rotation in your picture |
| 01:03 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> rotated around the look dir, that is |
| 01:03 |
erle |
well how to do |
| 01:04 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> weapons with radial-symmetric spread don't care about such a rotation |
| 01:04 |
erle |
oh now i get it |
| 01:04 |
erle |
lol |
| 01:04 |
erle |
sorry |
| 01:04 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> i swear if the minetest game jam judges voted based on the quality of algorithms and math in the games we would have won ^.^ |
| 01:05 |
erle |
math. not even once. |
| 01:06 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> but probably nobody would have even noticed if we just used a random offset in a cube to randomize the directions of projectiles (possibly with normalization afterwards), even though that skews the distribution. |
| 01:06 |
erle |
luatic btw if you want to be funny, tell me where the sun is in the picture i make with xcam and i can render it |
| 01:07 |
erle |
then players could photograph the sunset in minetest hehe |
| 01:08 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> luatic: if your algorithms and math could have actually run on a real-world computer, you'd have probably fared better than you did. |
| 01:08 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> valid point |
| 01:08 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> but good mapgen in lua is very hard to do |
| 01:08 |
erle |
what game was it? |
| 01:09 |
erle |
and was it dog slow? |
| 01:09 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> depends on what you consider "good" |
| 01:09 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> erle: spiraling down and.. the mapgen was |
| 01:09 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> a dog would be much faster than the game, id say the game ran at more of a... tortoise pace |
| 01:09 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I'm on a thinkpad T430s and it was painful. |
| 01:10 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> i blame minetest and luajit |
| 01:10 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> was that last years jam or before |
| 01:10 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I blame how ambitious you were in your math and not being willing to cut corners 😏 |
| 01:10 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> that too |
| 01:10 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> GX: last year |
| 01:10 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> the year before i tried to write 4 arcade games at once and now i have a model-accurate particle-based lunar lander explosion. |
| 01:10 |
erle |
memo to myself: do not let luatic near the raytracer |
| 01:11 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> oh also the lunar lander basically works |
| 01:11 |
erle |
(it is already very slow) |
| 01:11 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> do not let luatic near the anything, lest it be assimilated into modlib |
| 01:11 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> heh |
| 01:12 |
erle |
modlib dependency system for its parts when |
| 01:12 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> wdym dependency system? |
| 01:13 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> You mean like breaking modlib up into modules so you can assemble trimmed down optimized versions? Would be kinda nice. |
| 01:13 |
erle |
hehehe |
| 01:13 |
erle |
yeah |
| 01:13 |
erle |
modlib should be like a dozen mods |
| 01:13 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> that'd be like < 1k lol per mod. heresy. |
| 01:13 |
muurkha |
luatic: that sounds like a good lunar lander |
| 01:14 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> i should probably polish it sometime |
| 01:14 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> To be fair NodeCore's internal API was once a single huge mod, and then it evolved into a somewhat less huge mod with like half a dozen other mods with pieces spun off ... but becuase it's a pain to figure out exactly what things I need and don't need, and they're IN the game and all get loaded anyway, I just created a meta-mod that depends on them all and I just always depend on that, so Task Failed Successfully 😆 |
| 01:14 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> but there's always something else, something more interesting or pressing to be done.. |
| 01:14 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> and then minetest always gets so hella frustrating |
| 01:14 |
muurkha |
warr1024: apenwarr is the first person who implemented djb's redo, but erle isn't a fan of apenwarr's design choices |
| 01:15 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> like i wanted non-voxely-surfaces for my lunar lander |
| 01:15 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> i had to make the moon dust a liquid |
| 01:15 |
erle |
muurkha i do not think he is even the first? only the most popular? |
| 01:15 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Ah, haha, I keep forgetting that djb does stuff other than cryptography :-) |
| 01:15 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> (with modlib's advanced liquid raycasting capabilities this wasn't an issue, but it's still a dirty hack) |
| 01:16 |
erle |
Warr1024 djb wrote some old makefiles like he had a redo-ish system and was just translating it to makefile syntax. i asked him twice in person about it, did not get an implementation, so i made my own. |
| 01:17 |
muurkha |
I don't know why your horizon is a bit tilted |
| 01:18 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> anyways, honestly i'm quite proud of how spiraling down's mapgen turned out, except in terms of performance, but i really don't see how to make it faster without compromising on the parameters; it has to place multiple layers, insert cavities (ellipses) connected by tunnels, add ore clusters (with "weaker" ores towards the edges), decorations (which follow some "grouping" rules) |
| 01:18 |
erle |
muurkha btw the design choice is pretty much “it does not work recursively” which is a bit weird for a build system advertised as recursive |
| 01:18 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> it's basically a full-fledged mapgen which does give quite a unique vibe |
| 01:19 |
erle |
here is a redo timeline https://web.archive.org/web/20160818124645/http://jdebp.eu./FGA/introduction-to-redo.html |
| 01:19 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> and if (1) minetest allowed mapgen to run in multiple, separate threads and (2) we had some way to write mapgens in a faster language than lua, it would actually be decent |
| 01:19 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> (1) probably suffices to make it half-decent given the constraint of keeping lua |
| 01:19 |
erle |
i question the wisdom of “it is slow, so let's make it threaded” |
| 01:19 |
erle |
it will still be slow then |
| 01:20 |
muurkha |
interesting, I guess when I was a kid I didn't recognize the racism in Mulberry Street, On Beyond Zebra, and Ran the Zoo. I don't think I ever read the others |
| 01:20 |
muurkha |
<warr1024> I'm not sure if I can just choose to ignore those views and continue enjoying without somehow endorsing those views myself. |
| 01:20 |
muurkha |
you can except in one case |
| 01:21 |
erle |
wait what case |
| 01:21 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> erle: multithreading increases the throughput; multiple mapblocks can be generated in parallel. |
| 01:21 |
erle |
you mean except the overly racist works? |
| 01:21 |
muurkha |
which is the case that the view is specifically that you shouldn't enjoy the works of artists you disagree with |
| 01:21 |
muurkha |
because you are somehow endorsing that view by doing it |
| 01:22 |
erle |
i am kinda glad that hitlers paintings are genuinely bad – otherwise we would have had such a discussion in art class with lots of edgy 16 year old teens |
| 01:23 |
erle |
luatic really slow code is often not helped much by a linear speedup though. are you sure that this would help enough? |
| 01:23 |
|
smk joined #minetest |
| 01:23 |
erle |
maybe you could just link the especially slow portions here |
| 01:24 |
erle |
then all of us can take turns saying ”this is not necessary” and you can say ”but it is accurate” and then i can finally be on team ”better fast than correct” |
| 01:24 |
muurkha |
I think it's reasonable to argue that superhero comics and movies are sort of inherently pro-monarchy or theocracy. Superman is a literal god and the whole comic is about how it's good for him to be free to use his divine powers to smite evildoers without answering to any human authority |
| 01:24 |
erle |
this is what the deconstructions target actually |
| 01:24 |
erle |
e.g. superman: red son |
| 01:24 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> erle: maybe not enough, depending on how many threads. but IIRC the numbers were in the couple hundred millisecond (think 200-400) range. |
| 01:25 |
muurkha |
there's also the issue that due to the Comics Code most of them engage in no questioning whatsoever of the justice of the established power structure |
| 01:25 |
erle |
are you sure that's the fault of the comics code? |
| 01:25 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> (this is not all that bad once you benchmark how long it takes to just fill a mapblock with random nodes) |
| 01:25 |
muurkha |
DeepThgt: fov helps because you can take zoom photos |
| 01:25 |
muurkha |
the right vector looks fine to me |
| 01:25 |
erle |
i was taking zoom photos until i made the “lens” bigger |
| 01:26 |
muurkha |
although who knows, maybe it's actually left ;) |
| 01:26 |
erle |
could be left yeah lol |
| 01:26 |
DeepThgt |
lok well fov too |
| 01:27 |
erle |
WHO KNOWS |
| 01:27 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> muurkha: you can't possibly expect to get the left/right vector just by rotating your look dir 90° around some axis. simplest counterexample: what if your lookdir is parallel to that axis? |
| 01:27 |
erle |
i mean i was pretty much planning ending up with an upside down picture when i had this canvas camera obscura thing. but i am not doing that and i still have to switch x and y, so … |
| 01:27 |
erle |
no |
| 01:27 |
erle |
i mean x and -x |
| 01:27 |
erle |
damn i sleepy |
| 01:28 |
erle |
Need For Sleep |
| 01:28 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> The "safe" way to get the left/right vector doesn't even involve lookdir, you have to use get_look_horizontal and then some trig separately. |
| 01:28 |
erle |
oh that's some tip |
| 01:28 |
muurkha |
erle: I think apenwarr is the first to publish, though plausibly djb wrote one that he never shared, as with qhasm |
| 01:29 |
muurkha |
aha, thanks for the timeline |
| 01:29 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Haha, I sort of assumed maybe you already knew about get_look_horizontal but just didn't want to deal with it because the alternative works okay in like 99.9%+ of cases anyway 😆 |
| 01:29 |
erle |
muurkha alan grosskurth (2007) for his university thesis was first to publish |
| 01:29 |
muurkha |
aha, apparently Alan Grosskurth implemented it in 02007 and I just never noticed. that's awesome! |
| 01:30 |
erle |
which makes apenwarr's redo even more weird. it tries to be cleverer than all other implementations and has some neat features, but what use is a clever implementation that is less reliable than a naive implementation if the whole purpose of the thing is to get something correct that other systems do not? |
| 01:31 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> anyways, i'll go to bed now. good night. |
| 01:32 |
muurkha |
erle: I do think you can enjoy overly racist works without endorsing racism, although it depends on the context. like maybe you shouldn't show Triumph of the Will at a fundraiser for a Palestinian charity because it is probably going to get appropriated by racists (even though there's nothing specifically racist in the film itself) |
| 01:32 |
erle |
in particular, scheduling parallel build threads with apenwarr redo puts particular constraints on your build that it does not ensure hold. |
| 01:32 |
erle |
like, i would be happy with some system that just bugged out then |
| 01:32 |
erle |
but assuming something and then silently failing because you don't actually check is less useful than gracefully failing |
| 01:32 |
muurkha |
erle: really slow code is often helped sufficiently by an order-of-magnitude speedup, and I've used 64-core Linux amd64 machines |
| 01:33 |
erle |
i have no 64 core linux machines, i was more thinking in terms of ”if this gets 8 times as fast, but is accidentally quadratic, that won't help much” |
| 01:33 |
erle |
gets to be |
| 01:33 |
muurkha |
yes, it is definitely the fault of the Comics Code that the comics that engaged in any kind of social or political critical thinking had to stop publishing |
| 01:33 |
muurkha |
in the US |
| 01:33 |
erle |
i see |
| 01:34 |
erle |
weird that it lasts to this day |
| 01:34 |
muurkha |
luatic: you can definitely get the left-right vector by rotating your look dir 90° around the Y-axis. if your lookdir is parallel to the Y-axis, you've still rotated 90°, after all :] |
| 01:34 |
muurkha |
you need to rotate the up dir as well |
| 01:34 |
erle |
dr. horrible's sing-along blog put a good spin on it: “it's not about MAKING money. it's about TAKING money” |
| 01:35 |
muurkha |
maybe apenwarr didn't think Grosskurth's implementation was good enough to be useful |
| 01:35 |
erle |
apenwarr definitely wrote do, a public-domain shell script that rebuilds everything every time |
| 01:35 |
erle |
it is very useful |
| 01:36 |
erle |
the thing is, you can see from the failure modes that apenwarr redo is one (maybe the only?) implementation that tries to act to the outside world as a recursive build system, but is actually just a normal one in a trenchcoat. |
| 01:37 |
muurkha |
I agree that multithreading doesn't help much with accidentally quadratic code, though it does help some. I mean if you can get embarrassing parallelism from your accidentally quadratic code [maybe it's quadratic per mapblock] you can still process 8 times as big a problem on 64 cores. but usually EP requires that it be linear-time on a uniprocessor first |
| 01:37 |
erle |
to work, it needs the concept of a ”run”, in which something is built. you can not nest ”runs” |
| 01:37 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> If your code is accidentally O(n^2) instead of O(n), you can still get benefits running it on a quad-core as long as n <= 4 😏 |
| 01:38 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I don't remember the complexity analysis, but I think spiraling down's mapgen should be roughly expected linear or linearithmic time, not quadratic. |
| 01:38 |
erle |
luatic i have a tip for you that does not require complexity analysis: write code on a 10 year old computer |
| 01:38 |
muurkha |
the influence of the Comics Code lasts because almost all of the popular comics are from the Comics Code period, even including somewhat subversive ones like V and Watchmen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comics_Code_Authority |
| 01:38 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> The problem is really just that it takes too damn many milliseconds, i.e. the constant factors, and I don't see much more potential for optimization without compromising on parameters. |
| 01:39 |
erle |
muurkha how did a queer villain like V get past the radar though? |
| 01:39 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> erle: can you even run any pure lua mapgen properly on your 10 year old computer? |
| 01:39 |
erle |
not this shit again |
| 01:39 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Pretty sure erle's computer is older than mine and mine is 11 years old. |
| 01:39 |
muurkha |
V was the villain? |
| 01:39 |
muurkha |
;) |
| 01:39 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> IIRC when I benchmarked I figured out that the most simple pure Lua mapgens - like setting random content IDs - were already in the 50-something millisecond range or something. |
| 01:40 |
muurkha |
maybe because he was plausibly the villain |
| 01:40 |
erle |
muurkha well, from societie's point of view hehe |
| 01:40 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> (50ms per register on generated call) |
| 01:40 |
erle |
luatic but i meant it. when i wrote my synthesizer code for libglitch i purposefully chose the slowest computer i had at the time. |
| 01:41 |
erle |
rationale: if it runs there, it probably runs on faster ones |
| 01:41 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Is setting random content IDs actually the simplest? A lot of it would be affected by your looping discipline, and the random function itself is a bit of a performance blackbox... |
| 01:41 |
erle |
(with a synthesizer you can not afford not rendering a sample, as then you get stuttering music) |
| 01:41 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> the loops were proper |
| 01:41 |
erle |
show the code |
| 01:41 |
muurkha |
luatic: register? |
| 01:41 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> i also did just simple layered mapgen, also in the 50 ms range iirc |
| 01:41 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> muurkha: register_on_generated |
| 01:42 |
muurkha |
erle: I have plenty of computers that libglitch won't run on |
| 01:42 |
erle |
the simplest mapgen is obviuosly setting every node to default:stone |
| 01:42 |
erle |
muurkha they are probably slower than what i had at the time |
| 01:42 |
muurkha |
luatic: oh, sorry |
| 01:42 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I generally insist on testing MT mods on the slowest machine I've got that will competently run MT at all. The minimum system requirements for a thing tend to gravitate toward whatever kind of system the developer uses, so don't get too powerful of a dev machine unless you want to limit your audience unnecessarily. |
| 01:42 |
muurkha |
erle: mostly they have less RAM |
| 01:42 |
erle |
muurkha oh, i did not realize it was limited by that! |
| 01:42 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> @🕳 you got a link to that mapgen code? |
| 01:42 |
erle |
ig you could reimplement it in C, but even then you need the ringbuffer |
| 01:43 |
muurkha |
sure |
| 01:43 |
erle |
i agree with what Warr1024 says. mineclone2 devs having much more powerful computers than their playerbase has lead to very sad bugs. |
| 01:43 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> @warr1024 not the simple ones, no; that was early on in testing. the complex one is here: https://github.com/spiraling-down/game/blob/master/mods/sd_map/gen.lua. |
| 01:44 |
erle |
the latest of which is it simply not working on devices with too little RAM (the new mineclonia works on those devices though, allegedly it has less code and more features hehe) |
| 01:45 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Well, it's got all the necessary microoptimizations I guess, it's just ... really complicated. |
| 01:45 |
erle |
-- lazily creates noises (ahead-of-time is not possible) |
| 01:45 |
muurkha |
ring buffers are fine most of the time, though someone did apparently reimplement my bytebeat "crowd" for the 6502 |
| 01:46 |
erle |
-- Each transition between two layers needs its own noise |
| 01:46 |
erle |
haha this is where i would start the fakery if this turned out to be performance-relevant |
| 01:47 |
erle |
(it is probably not, right?) |
| 01:47 |
erle |
local chunk_size = 40 -- TODO this is not optimal due to offsets |
| 01:47 |
erle |
what effect does this have luatic? |
| 01:47 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> just placing the layers was still bearable. it's just that all the features together, even after optimizating using the LuaJIT profiler, were not optimal. |
| 01:48 |
erle |
and you could, of course, not rip any one of them out or simplify them |
| 01:48 |
erle |
as that would have messed with the vision |
| 01:49 |
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| 01:49 |
erle |
luatic in this optimized form, what is most expensive still? |
| 01:49 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> erle: I don't remember, I'd have to fire up a profiler and check again |
| 01:50 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> the chunk size is effectively a chunk size the mapgen uses for chunk features that go cross-chunk |
| 01:50 |
erle |
-- Generate map: Loop over nodes in Z-X-Y order; |
| 01:50 |
erle |
-- this is not optimal for cache locality (Z-Y-X would be optimal), |
| 01:50 |
erle |
-- but it is required to minimize expensive perlin noise calls |
| 01:50 |
erle |
why are those calls so expensive? |
| 01:51 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> because they have to compute the perlin noise at a point |
| 01:51 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> it's just that when you're doing layers, it's best to think of the world in terms of "stacks" rather than.. X-lines |
| 01:51 |
erle |
would it have been possible to pre-calc something here? |
| 01:51 |
erle |
like, the entire map? |
| 01:51 |
erle |
place mapblocks as schematics hehe |
| 01:52 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> erle: precalculating the entire map is something that has been considered in hindsight |
| 01:52 |
erle |
so, would it have been possible? |
| 01:52 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> IIRC the mapgen wasn't necessarily the worst thing. The ridiculous number of mobs was also a good contender. |
| 01:52 |
erle |
i know that minetest struggles placing big schematics |
| 01:53 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> It's not impossible to ship a precalculated map but then you'd be suffering in download times instead of compute... |
| 01:53 |
erle |
would you though? how big can a mapblock be |
| 01:53 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I've found modgen to be a pretty impressively efficient way to pull in pregenerated maps... |
| 01:53 |
erle |
i need to sleep, will read later |
| 01:53 |
erle |
good night |
| 01:53 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> the mobs have since been fixed. simply counting mobs in an area and not spawning new ones at some point does the trick. |
| 01:54 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://github.com/spiraling-down/game/blob/master/mods/sd_mobs/max_count_by_chunk.lua here's the trick for any mob mod authors btw. simply divide the world into chunks, count by chunk, impose a limit. with such an efficient index, no inefficient get_objects_inside_radius calls are needed. |
| 02:00 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I use the trick of dividing the world up into a grid and doing an O(n) once-over indexing myself in a number of cases ... but it makes me wonder about how you can do a thing without having to be limited to the grid. Like if I want to efficiently tell every entity that is within N distance of every other entity with euclidian distance. IIRC there's a way you can speed things up with a grid index, but it's not quite so simple as checking |
| 02:00 |
MTDiscord |
the one cell that the one entity ends up in; you have to check neighboring cells, and then post-filter... |
| 02:01 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> IIRC wasn't there supposed to be some PR that was going to make this happen automatically for objects_inside_radius using some kind of spatial indexer? |
| 02:01 |
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| 04:19 |
fluxionary |
i'm just jumping into a dead conversation and then leaving, but get_objects_inside_radius and get_objects_in_area very much need to use more efficient data structures to reduce the time it takes to execute them. on busy servers like your-land, these functions can demand 90% or more of the total runtime of the server. i've looked into a solution to an extent, but updating such structures efficiently every server step is far from trivial. i've |
| 04:19 |
fluxionary |
found a couple of relevant papers but i haven't tried to implement them and i'm not even certain they'd help in practice |
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| 04:25 |
fluxionary |
when you've only got 100 active objects on the server, iterating them all doesn't cost much. but if you've got 10000 on average, and most of those objects are calling `get_objects_inside_radius` or `get_object_in_area` every few server steps, it adds up |
| 04:27 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> didnt lmd/josiah have a pr to use spacial trees or something at one point? |
| 04:28 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/12040 ah right, it never went anywhere |
| 04:47 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I've got like in the low thousands sometimes, and they hurt rendering quite a bit, but with a combination of no on_step hook and careful O(n) indexing when I do process them, there's very little server pain from them. |
| 04:48 |
fluxionary |
@Warr1024, you're talking about single player? it gets much worse in busy multiplayer servers with lots of hostile mobs |
| 04:49 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Nah, mostly multiplayer. |
| 04:50 |
fluxionary |
hm. i'm curious to see what you've done. thinking on it, how could you ever update mobs without an on_step hook? |
| 04:50 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Though the actual number of entities I need has been cut down a lot since converting some stack nodes to use actual mesh nodes for rendering. That helps a ton. Cobble storage used to be a massive frame rate sink. |
| 04:50 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I just don't do mob entries. |
| 04:50 |
fluxionary |
entries? do you mean entities? |
| 04:51 |
fluxionary |
you're just talking about static entities like in smartshops and shelves and stuff? |
| 04:52 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Stack nodes and such, but basically probably something like that |
| 04:52 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> MT can handle a lot of static entities fine, it's just a problem dealing with ones that are constantly moving. |
| 04:53 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> This is why some hosts pay like $5 a month for a server and have tons of capacity to spare while others pay $50 a month or more and are always struggling. |
| 04:53 |
fluxionary |
"stack node" isn't a term i understand. i do a lot of work w/ mods and mobs, can you explain it in other terms? |
| 04:54 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> A node representing a stack of items. You can't display those as a node so you need an entity to display them and the node itself is just airlike. |
| 04:56 |
fluxionary |
Warr1024, so you're talking about a replacement for "builtin:__item" |
| 04:57 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I guess you've never actually seen NodeCore then? |
| 04:57 |
fluxionary |
oh, i *have* seen NodeCore, but i don't think of it much |
| 04:57 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Builtin items are still a thing, but they only live as long as the item is moving. |
| 04:58 |
fluxionary |
i never played on a multiplayer NodeCore server, i don't know anything specific to the performance of such servers |
| 04:58 |
fluxionary |
mostly i've played on things that were based on minetest_game or things close to that |
| 04:58 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> The fact that a few things require use of entities to display makes entity performance interesting. |
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| 05:00 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I left MTG in 2018, and it was so long since I played it that when I played Piranesi, I found all the artwork really novel, but everyone was complaining about these old MTG textures they'd seen everywhere before. |
| 05:02 |
fluxionary |
is Piranesi a public server? i'll have to check that ouot |
| 05:02 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> No, it's a game, mostly SP. It placed 2nd I think in the last jam, and I ended up making a remake of it called the Piranesi Restoration Project which is now sort of the canonical edition. |
| 05:02 |
fluxionary |
on mtg-ish servers, the worst performing entities are signs - complex composures of small textures. if you've got a ton of signs near /spawn, say goodbye to any potential low-powered clients |
| 05:03 |
fluxionary |
Warr1024, i should check that out. i'm mostly interested in the interests of big multiplayer servers, but i do like to keep track of all creative aspects of the game |
| 05:04 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> It is kind of funny how some entities can bog down a server but have little impact on a client, while others are okay on the server but just murder clients 😂 |
| 05:05 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> There are a lot of really interesting experiences in the jam games, and non-souplike games in general. Not all of them have much multiplayer potential, but some of them do nevertheless. |
| 05:05 |
fluxionary |
Warr1024, well, there's at least some heuristics to explain that. some entities require sending a relatively large amount of data to the client, and the data needs to be decoded, and that isn't efficient. |
| 05:06 |
fluxionary |
Warr1024, other entities have expensive on_step callbacks, and beat up the server |
| 05:06 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Entity rendering is particularly inefficient, so each visible entity incurs some baseline cost, and lots of little ones add up quickly. |
| 05:07 |
fluxionary |
Warr1024, that's true too. the client has to draw every entity in range, even if the player can't see it |
| 05:07 |
fluxionary |
though there's a little bit of culling going on |
| 05:08 |
fluxionary |
some drawtypes are less expensive than others, which was the major reason why i forked the smartshop mod |
| 05:08 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> There is no batching of any kind for entities, and apparently this hurts pretty badly. |
| 05:09 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Hmm, yeah, tool extrude meshes are painful too, especially with higher res textures |
| 05:11 |
fluxionary |
are you talking about what the client sees as the wielded item, or what other players see from e.g. 3d_armor's wielditem submod? |
| 05:11 |
fluxionary |
also this piranesi server what even is this. infinite maze? |
| 05:13 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Yeah, it's like a myst-like puzzle game set in a house that's hard to navigate. There are a lot of clues and stuff. |
| 05:13 |
fluxionary |
i'm half-asleep but i mean to check this out sometime in the future. an interesting concept |
| 05:14 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> The extrude mesh is that thing that MT does to turn a 2d image into a 3d model, like yeah, tools are a common use. |
| 05:15 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Dunno about 3d armor mod but I assume it works a lot like in NodeCore... |
| 05:15 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I think in all cases I just use the world item visual type and MT handles several different drawing modes. |
| 05:16 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> wielditem dyac |
| 05:16 |
fluxionary |
it's the "wielditem" drawtype, when used w/ an item that doesn't have a 3d model (mesh/nodebox/node) |
| 05:19 |
fluxionary |
hm, maybe not node. but mesh and nodebox for sure |
| 05:23 |
fluxionary |
https://gitea.your-land.de/your-land/bugtracker/issues/3723 |
| 05:24 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Haha ick. Definitely worth cutting down on those if you can. |
| 05:25 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> One issue with building spatial indexes though is knowing when during the server step cycle you should clear and rebuild the index ... |
| 05:27 |
fluxionary |
yeah, there's descriptions of algorithms about rebuilding it when things are modified, but i haven't found much about updating only on a discrete update step |
| 05:27 |
fluxionary |
and the vague algorithms are already pretty complicated |
| 05:32 |
fluxionary |
zzz going to sleep, good talk |
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erle |
fluxionary you should check out cora's unicode signs and investigate it for performance |
| 09:07 |
erle |
to see if it is improves the situation over the texmod signs |
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erle |
turns out i totally can get normals for the surfaces i hit and use that for lighting: https://mister-muffin.de/p/8Grn.png |
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| 16:13 |
celeron55 |
as you're using raytracing you could add water reflections 8) |
| 16:19 |
erle |
indeed, but right now i am trying to make the water half transparent |
| 16:19 |
celeron55 |
that could be more difficult actually |
| 16:20 |
celeron55 |
as funny as it sounds |
| 16:20 |
erle |
maybe i just need to cast twice |
| 16:20 |
erle |
and average the results |
| 16:22 |
celeron55 |
if you randomly make rays hit water and randomly not, you could get an interesting effect |
| 16:22 |
celeron55 |
i mean, per ray |
| 16:23 |
erle |
i think that happens already kinda because of the supersampling but give me a moment |
| 16:23 |
jonadab |
That would come through as ditthered, celeron55. |
| 16:23 |
erle |
water dithering neat |
| 16:23 |
jonadab |
*dithered |
| 16:24 |
erle |
this is pretty ghetto |
| 16:24 |
erle |
exactly how i like it |
| 16:25 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> IIRC you can just continue a raycast, you don't need to bail out on the first hit, right? So for semitransparency, when you hit water, just remember that you did, and continue on, and when you reach the end, average in the water color. |
| 16:25 |
erle |
oh LOL |
| 16:25 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> For reflections, yeah, you'd have to kick off another raycast. |
| 16:25 |
jonadab |
Slightly smoother dithering could be achieved by replacing the random selection with modular arithmetic on a ray count. |
| 16:25 |
erle |
Warr1024 the problem is that if you continue that kinda looks shitty at some node/nodebox edges |
| 16:25 |
erle |
eg. a chair in water |
| 16:26 |
jonadab |
Although you'd want to offset it on each line/row of rays. |
| 16:26 |
jonadab |
If you want water to look actually realistic, you have to do refraction. |
| 16:27 |
jonadab |
But that juice is probably not worth the squeeze. |
| 16:27 |
erle |
celeron55 it works, but WELCOME TO THE EXTREMELY MOIRE EFFECT WATER |
| 16:27 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> If you end up doing a 2nd raycast anyway, refraction wouldn't cost much beyond just adjusting the angle and a bunch of potential fine-tuning work. |
| 16:28 |
jonadab |
It wouldn't cost much CPU time. Programmer time, I'm not sure. |
| 16:28 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> But if the point of photography is to capture the scene you actually see, then you probably shouldn't do stuff like that unless somebody is going to make an at least optional shader or something to do it in the regular MT client. |
| 16:29 |
jonadab |
If the point of photography were to be exactly what you see in-game, he wouldn't be doing black and white. |
| 16:30 |
jonadab |
But I was mostly being silly when I mentioned refraction. I don't think users will _expect_ that. |
| 16:32 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> An optional water reflection shader? Who would do such a thing? |
| 16:34 |
jonadab |
People who think realism is more important than how much fun the game is to play. |
| 16:34 |
jonadab |
Personally I dislike shaders. They make the world harder to visually parse. |
| 16:35 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Sorry, but i find that take to be rather narrow minded. I respect your opinion though |
| 16:36 |
jonadab |
It doesn't bother me if other people want to use shaders. |
| 16:36 |
jonadab |
I just don't want to use them myself. |
| 16:36 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Many people are able to appreciate both visual and mechanical complexity. Not to mention certain graphical effects enhance game mechanics. Also bold of you to assume reflections must be realistic. |
| 16:37 |
jonadab |
*shrug* |
| 16:38 |
erle |
i also think they make the world harder to visually parse. but i find it funny that you can probably cheat in some games using shadows and reflections. |
| 16:39 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Do you find it difficult to parse the real world? |
| 16:39 |
jonadab |
I mean, if you can change how things are rendered, you can cheat in much more straightforward ways, e.g., see through walls. |
| 16:39 |
jonadab |
Sometimes, @greenxenith |
| 16:40 |
erle |
greenxenith, i do indeed and that is for example why i have bandstop filter glasses that filter out blue lights |
| 16:40 |
jonadab |
e.g., it's hard to see the road when driving east around sunrise. |
| 16:40 |
erle |
like at night i get disoriented by flashing lights from police and ambulance |
| 16:40 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Cheating via shaders is a moot point |
| 16:40 |
erle |
if they drive by |
| 16:40 |
erle |
tired: cheating via shaders. wired: cheating via looking directly at the opengl. |
| 16:41 |
erle |
oh this is texture x? must be an enemy |
| 16:41 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Thats just looking at the rendered world with extra steps |
| 16:42 |
jonadab |
"You're still using an external computer? I just run the game directly in my brain!" |
| 16:42 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I don't particularly care much one way or another about shaders (I'll turn them on for screenshot but off for day to day play) |
| 16:42 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I would like to say I also respect your opinion, but since you didn't offer the same courtesy I probably shouldn't either. |
| 16:43 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> The fact that a suggestion might result in additional realism doesn't mean that you can just drag realism in as a strawman to argue against the suggestion. While I don't care too much about realism, I don't see what the point is in going out of your way to avoid it. |
| 16:44 |
jonadab |
No, I didn't mean that. |
| 16:44 |
jonadab |
I just don't know what shaders could contribute *other* than realism. |
| 16:44 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> If you want to make a "don't be so realism-obsessed" argument you should probably wait for the other person to mention realism first 😆 |
| 16:45 |
jonadab |
(Setting aside weird hacks like using them to see around corners.) |
| 16:45 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> What I'm saying is that it's not a good idea to put a whole bunch of shader-realism into the photography mod if there isn't a corresponding experience with the game itself outside of the photography mod. |
| 16:45 |
jonadab |
That's fair enough. |
| 16:45 |
erle |
jonadab the dithering shader i have seen actually makes the world more smooth |
| 16:45 |
erle |
there could also be shaders for toon effects like outline ig |
| 16:45 |
erle |
but those can easily be done otherwise |
| 16:46 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> It would be weird to setup a scene a certain way, then go to take a photograph of it and then find out that because the photography thing does reflections and refraction with water that MT does NOT do, your photo came out looking dramatically different than the scene you lined up. |
| 16:46 |
erle |
i will not put shader-stuff in the photo mod |
| 16:46 |
erle |
i just want transparent water and MAYBE transparent glass (but then i have the issue with several glass plates behind each other) |
| 16:47 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> haha, yeah, for glasslike render types, I think the mesh generation stuff does a lot of work that raycast is not going to be much help for you with. |
| 16:47 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Like you'll have to do a lot of "would this surface actually be drawn or not" logic all on your lonesome. |
| 16:48 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I would think that at least attempting to handle transparent glass might be important, while not supporting it for water is a more reasonable choice, since there are configurations of MT that make water opaque, but none that make glass opaque. |
| 16:49 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> So if you just supported "MT with all the fancy shit turned off" then at least there would be configurations under which the camera's output makes sense. |
| 16:49 |
erle |
well i just handled the water transparency bit i think |
| 16:50 |
erle |
now give me a formula to draw the sun into the sky lol |
| 16:50 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Haha, seeing all those black and white photos, now I kinda want to see the camera mod support "infrared" and do heat photography. You'd have to have modders define a bunch of heat source stuff (though you could at least roughly infer from some heuristics like the igniter group) 😄 |
| 16:51 |
erle |
i am pretty sure that exile is probably weird enough to already define temperature everywhere |
| 16:51 |
erle |
otherwise how would players die of freezing |
| 16:51 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> NodeCore doesn't define it for everything but it has heat emitters pretty explicitly marked. |
| 16:51 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Actually, if I had film photography in NodeCore, I wouldn't even take pictures of stuff, I'd just develop the unexposed film to check for radiation 😆 |
| 16:52 |
erle |
lol neat |
| 16:52 |
erle |
so what exactly is radiation in nodecore? |
| 16:52 |
erle |
a node attribute? |
| 16:53 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Nodes and items have a lux_emit group, with the intensity being proportional (I think linearly) to the group value. |
| 16:54 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Similar with radiant_heat or whatever it's called; those only pass through sunlight_propagates though. |
| 16:54 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Lux radiation on the other hand can be absorbed or scattered by various material; there's a group to explicitly set it, and a heuristic function as a fallback for those that don't. |
| 16:56 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Haha, actually, a photography film that's sensitive specifically to radiation in NodeCore could be really useful high-tier equipment for fine-tuning radiation shielding. The radiation exposure algorithm actually uses raycasts already (I cast a random ray backwards out from the player and see if it strikes a radiation emitter). |
| 16:57 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Oh, no, actually, it does NOT use raycasts; I just step the ray manually. The fundamental frequency of lux radiation is ~1m so I have to allow for things like tunneling 😳 |
| 16:57 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> BTW shaders just define how a scene is rendered, jonadab, so the blocks you see regularly are also shaders. They have nothing to do with realism intrinsically. |
| 16:58 |
erle |
warr1024 celeron55 jonadab greenxenith … partially transparent water, here: https://mister-muffin.de/p/RHNk.png |
| 17:01 |
erle |
so what other effect is missing |
| 17:01 |
erle |
don't say clouds lol |
| 17:07 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Haha, damn, they stack if you take the same scene twice? That's kinda nice 😄 |
| 17:07 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> You had some screenshots earlier where you had placed the photos against nodes in the world, right? |
| 17:07 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Now support taking photos of THAT. |
| 17:08 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> (Ironically I bet it would actually be pretty easy) |
| 17:08 |
erle |
what do you mean they stack? |
| 17:08 |
erle |
oh |
| 17:08 |
erle |
right |
| 17:08 |
erle |
yeah i made this on purpose |
| 17:09 |
erle |
instead of random variations i use a table with predictable offsets for the supersampling |
| 17:09 |
erle |
this allows me to see if the rendering changed at all if i change code |
| 17:10 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Heh, actually the idea of "instead of using a digest of the scene in metadata, just use a new random number eachtime" wouldn't have occurred to me at first 😄 |
| 17:10 |
erle |
Warr1024 i do not think it would be so easy to take photos of photos in the world, because all i get is the node type and the normal. i could figure out where i hit and do some linalg i guess to figure out which pixel, but why don't you do it lol |
| 17:10 |
erle |
a digest of the scene is not what i want though |
| 17:11 |
erle |
i mean, i basically want the supersampling to send out more rays that ideally are slightly going into a different direction, to get the depth-of-field effect (and also a higher resolution kinda) |
| 17:11 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> You're using raycast, aren't you? They're supposed to have intersection_point or something with the actual high precision place you hit. If you can figure out which pixel in the photo matches the in-world coordinates, you could yoink that pixel out of the original photo... |
| 17:11 |
erle |
so hardcoding those directinos makes sense |
| 17:12 |
erle |
pointed_thing.intersection_point and pointed_thing.intersection_normal |
| 17:12 |
erle |
oh lol |
| 17:13 |
erle |
this is funny |
| 17:13 |
erle |
give me the math and i may do it |
| 17:17 |
erle |
can entities have non-cube collision boxes? |
| 17:20 |
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| 17:36 |
erle |
idea: minetest ghostbusters game with human and ghost team. the ghost team are players only visible as dark shadows on photos and by indirect effects (e.g. sound of footsteps, whooooosh, torches extinguishing when they are near). the human team has cameras and a limited amount of ghost traps or whatever. ghost team must scare the human players to death, human team must catch the ghosts. |
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| 18:04 |
fluxionary |
entity collision boxes are currently always rectangular prisms aligned with the cardinal directions |
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| 18:44 |
erle |
Wuzzy btw did you see my photography mod? https://content.minetest.net/packages/erlehmann/xcam/ https://content.minetest.net/uploads/705be8a927.png |
| 18:44 |
erle |
i wonder if you have any ideas on how to improve it |
| 18:45 |
Wuzzy |
add color |
| 18:48 |
erle |
can't easily |
| 18:48 |
erle |
the shading right now is based on node name, normal vector on the hit surface and the light level |
| 18:48 |
Wuzzy |
ahh thats how |
| 18:49 |
Wuzzy |
i wondered how you got the grayscale color since i cant recall any function to get somthing like "pixel color" |
| 18:49 |
erle |
oh there is also distance fog |
| 18:50 |
erle |
node definitions have minimap_color but for reasons it is only exposed on the client |
| 18:50 |
erle |
would be neat if it was exposed on the server, but i have no idea how much the server can actually do that |
| 18:50 |
Wuzzy |
well. add a polaroid camera item, and a sound. give the player the item once it has "developed" |
| 18:51 |
erle |
a sound would be funny hehe |
| 18:51 |
Wuzzy |
hmmm |
| 18:51 |
erle |
i think DeepThgt already had ideas to improve it |
| 18:51 |
erle |
i think maybe i could add some noise to surfaces |
| 18:51 |
Wuzzy |
oh the camera doesnt render plants correctly |
| 18:51 |
erle |
no it does not |
| 18:51 |
Wuzzy |
they render as cubes |
| 18:51 |
erle |
because i just abuse minetest's raytracing function |
| 18:52 |
erle |
well, do you have any idea what to do with plants? |
| 18:52 |
jonadab |
erle: lens flair ;-) |
| 18:52 |
Wuzzy |
not realy but plantlike nodes have a predefined shape so that might help |
| 18:53 |
erle |
Wuzzy i am hitting the collision box i think |
| 18:53 |
erle |
so if you want to make a game where you have to photograph players they have to be black cuboids |
| 18:53 |
erle |
just label them SEELE-01 through SEELE-12 or so and it's okay ig |
| 18:53 |
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| 18:54 |
erle |
appguru i introduced normal-based coloring https://content.minetest.net/uploads/705be8a927.png |
| 18:54 |
Wuzzy |
oh and async should definitely be utilized since the calculation appears to be slow. so creating a photo appears to block the entire server |
| 18:54 |
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| 18:54 |
Wuzzy |
found a bug. photo disappears when i place it |
| 18:55 |
Wuzzy |
but in 5.8.0-dev |
| 18:55 |
erle |
huh? |
| 18:55 |
erle |
where did you place it though |
| 18:55 |
MinetestBot |
[git] grorp -> minetest/minetest: Fix auto_install_spec being used as a table (#13970) 3944507 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/394450758ed822b38a851f8c3ee601c68403e47e (2023-11-09T18:54:47Z) |
| 18:55 |
erle |
i bet it's on the side of some node you pointed from above |
| 18:55 |
erle |
the placement code should use raycasting too ig |
| 18:56 |
erle |
so about those translations: if i input this to which function, what is the output? local string_assignment = S("string assignment") |
| 18:57 |
MinetestBot |
[git] MisterE123 -> minetest/minetest: Fix misrendered fall_damage_add_percent calculation formula (#13969) fe8d04d https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/fe8d04d0b3c2e3af7c406fb6527f1b5230a30137 (2023-11-09T18:55:26Z) |
| 19:00 |
Wuzzy |
S is a shortcut. it is implied the boilerplate code "local S = minetest.get_translator(translation_domain)" was called before, where translation_domain is a dev-chosen identifier that is usualyl equal to the mod name |
| 19:00 |
Wuzzy |
the content of string_assignment should be the translated string of "string assignment" or, if no translation is available, the input |
| 19:01 |
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| 19:01 |
Wuzzy |
Minetest does some string magic behind the scenes for the "translated string" to work on clients but as a lua dev you dont have to worry about it. you can pass it around like a normal variable |
| 19:02 |
erle |
i do not understand. can you maybe give me the *output* for that test file that you posted? |
| 19:02 |
erle |
in german or english because i am not fluent in other languages |
| 19:02 |
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| 19:02 |
Wuzzy |
oh |
| 19:03 |
Wuzzy |
ah you mean from the test script... lol right |
| 19:03 |
Wuzzy |
i was talking about the actual output when executing the actual lua code, but you didnt mean that |
| 19:04 |
Wuzzy |
erle, this is what my script has produced: https://mister-muffin.de/p/V0QX.txt |
| 19:05 |
Wuzzy |
(file name: template.txt) |
| 19:06 |
Wuzzy |
to get this output yourself. put the lua file in a dummy mod, with the code in init.lua, then create a directory called "locale", then run mod_translation_update within the mod directory. the script should then autogenerate locale/template.txt in the first run and update it in any subsequent runs when the lua file has changed |
| 19:07 |
erle |
uh oh |
| 19:07 |
erle |
thanks |
| 19:08 |
erle |
so what is the simplest thing that could be tested here for a single line of input? |
| 19:08 |
erle |
like: a combination of a function in the translator script, an input and an output |
| 19:08 |
erle |
or is a single line not enough? |
| 19:09 |
erle |
oh damn, could it be that everything important in this script is a side effect? |
| 19:21 |
Wuzzy |
minimal lua file: S("Helloworld") |
| 19:26 |
Wuzzy |
yeah this script relies on globals a lot (especially for the command line args) |
| 19:27 |
Wuzzy |
but that could be refactored if its really needed |
| 19:28 |
erle |
i think i need some time to figure out if it can be tested the way i think it should. it would probably still make sense to have an example input and output regardless. |
| 19:28 |
erle |
i mean, your commented file contains a bunch of domain knowledge that might get lost otherwise |
| 19:29 |
erle |
Wuzzy am i correct in that what is done there is parsing lua with regexes? |
| 19:29 |
Wuzzy |
yes |
| 19:29 |
Wuzzy |
this is not a full lua parser because that would be overkill, of course |
| 19:29 |
erle |
well other people wrote one, but i see what you mean https://pypi.org/project/luaparser/ |
| 19:30 |
erle |
it's just a bit confusing for me (but i know regexes) |
| 19:30 |
Wuzzy |
the downside of regex is always the awful syntax. u just gotta learn it :/ |
| 19:31 |
Wuzzy |
oh the excuse i use is that i just demand from the user that the strings are put in the lua in a certain way. i wrote it all in the README file |
| 19:32 |
Wuzzy |
your xcam mod is quite impressive tbh and obviously the biggest downside is that ur very limited by minetest |
| 19:33 |
erle |
i am not too concerned about lack of source redaability right now, it is more that i saw the minor changes and comments in the PR and thought maybe it needs tests. but i must admit that i am confused and should buy food and eat. |
| 19:33 |
erle |
i think i am content with being limited. restrictions breed creativity |
| 19:34 |
Wuzzy |
well in that case i suggest to just polish, polish, polish. in the current state is still very unpolished. i think performance is biggest issue but we have async |
| 19:35 |
erle |
can i raycast in async though |
| 19:35 |
erle |
also consider the following https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/13644 |
| 19:35 |
erle |
> When you pass vectors into or out of the async environment they lose their metatable. |
| 19:36 |
erle |
sfan5 the commit you linked in https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/13644#issuecomment-1637040560 does not seem to exist, ig due to rebase or so |
| 19:37 |
Wuzzy |
oh noes |
| 19:37 |
Wuzzy |
this is a problem |
| 19:38 |
erle |
well i can pass other things, pixels or so |
| 19:38 |
erle |
but oh wait |
| 19:38 |
erle |
i need to pass vectors |
| 19:38 |
erle |
since otherwise the player will move and the photo will smear |
| 19:38 |
erle |
guess one can just do a lot of vector.new() in the async env lol |
| 19:39 |
Wuzzy |
am i right in the assumption the raycasts are the slowest part? |
| 19:40 |
erle |
well, i am pretty sure that doing between 64k and twice as much raycasts is not fast |
| 19:40 |
erle |
but then again i do other stuff that often too |
| 19:40 |
erle |
maybe i should profile it |
| 19:40 |
Wuzzy |
ouch |
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MTDiscord |
<grorp> it would be nice if you could copy a part of the map into the async environment and do the raycasting there |
| 20:38 |
MTDiscord |
<grorp> transferring VoxelManips into the async env is already possible, what's missing is support for raycasting on VoxelManips |
| 20:56 |
erle |
i mean otherwise i could just raycast the scene very slowly lol |
| 20:56 |
erle |
like even slower |
| 20:57 |
erle |
give the server room to breathe |
| 20:57 |
erle |
long exposure time |
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erle |
i added a 8×8 noise texture to the nodes that xcam renders https://mister-muffin.de/p/pdjv.png |
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