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LauwCost |
Hello ! Yesterday I asked a wiki's acces but I lost history. Then if someone gived me an id, I don't knox that. Sorry, my english is very bad. |
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gregon |
On #minetest channel more people than on #minecraft channel! |
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gregon |
In #minetest channel more users, than on #minecraft channel |
| 13:53 |
erle |
gregon yes we read it the first time |
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| 14:00 |
srifqi |
i'm not sure that MC players are using Libera servers for IRC |
| 14:05 |
ROllerozxa |
back when IRC was cool, minecrafters were usually on espernet |
| 14:05 |
ROllerozxa |
unsure how active #minecraft is on espernet nowadays though |
| 14:06 |
erle |
IRC was never cool lol |
| 14:06 |
erle |
:D |
| 14:06 |
erle |
then again how old are you hehe |
| 14:07 |
erle |
i think the cool kids always go for some proprietary service that shuts down at some point |
| 14:07 |
erle |
remember AIM, back in 2009? |
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tarsovbak |
hi |
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Ingar |
erle | IRC was never cool lol -> you're just not old enough |
| 17:36 |
erle |
i get tears in my eyes when bo burnham sings “circa 99” |
| 17:37 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I remember when my friend who lived down the street got extra phone lines so he could run his own dial-in BBS, and can confirm that IRC was never actually cool. |
| 17:37 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Maybe that's still not old enough. Maybe for IRC to have been "cool" I need to have died before IRC was invented... |
| 17:39 |
Ingar |
my main take is, after serviving dozens of prorietary chatboxes, IRC still lives |
| 17:39 |
Ingar |
*surviving |
| 17:41 |
erle |
yes |
| 17:41 |
erle |
that's true |
| 17:41 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> "serviving" is a good word to use for "running a difficult server and making it out alive." |
| 17:54 |
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| 17:56 |
Ingar |
"I servived Minectaft Java Edition by migrating to minetest" |
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| 18:10 |
celeron55 |
i'm doing some distro upgrades on the VPS, please allow for some forum and wiki downtime |
| 18:10 |
celeron55 |
eh |
| 18:10 |
celeron55 |
it's not actually a VPS but anyway |
| 18:13 |
erle |
doing distro upgrades on the physical machine in the corner of the room? :D |
| 18:13 |
Ingar |
not that it matters that much |
| 18:15 |
Ingar |
if an upgrade fails on a physical machine in the room, chances are you have to get up and hook up some monitor/keyb. With a VPS, you connect to the console |
| 18:15 |
celeron55 |
well it's a tiny physical "machine" in a rack packed full of similar "machines" (computer-on-card, let's say) in some gigantic scaleway datacenter in france i think |
| 18:16 |
Ingar |
celeron55: I have 2 VPS at Scaleway |
| 18:17 |
Ingar |
no complaints about their services |
| 18:18 |
celeron55 |
yeah i've had absolutely no problems with them, this machine is just underpowered both due to being old and due to being a cheap physical machine |
| 18:19 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> If only there were a way to obtain a newer machine with more power |
| 18:19 |
ROllerozxa |
why did you choose a worse server to migrate onto anyways |
| 18:20 |
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| 18:20 |
ROllerozxa |
like, the old server which still runs an old copy of the wiki feels much faster than the current one |
| 18:20 |
celeron55 |
uh, what |
| 18:21 |
ROllerozxa |
well I don't know the specs of it but I assumed it to be more powerful |
| 18:21 |
celeron55 |
i don't understand what you're talking about |
| 18:21 |
celeron55 |
start from about 1 kilometer from where you are now |
| 18:21 |
celeron55 |
let's see if i understand then |
| 18:21 |
ROllerozxa |
https://oldwiki.minetest.net is on the old server right |
| 18:22 |
celeron55 |
yes that one. well that's going to have two factors: that server has almost no load now, plus one of these years it was moved onto a newer datacenter so it literally does have more power |
| 18:23 |
celeron55 |
but its main problem is that it's running an ancient version of openbsd which doesn't even have working acme client for let's encrypt |
| 18:23 |
celeron55 |
and one does not simply upgrade openbsd |
| 18:24 |
celeron55 |
it basically requires a reinstall and re-set-up, and everything changes in every release so everything breaks if you're trying to use ansible or something (like i tried) |
| 18:25 |
ROllerozxa |
I see |
| 18:27 |
ROllerozxa |
well, the (virtual) server hardware appears to still work on it even though the OS is outdated |
| 18:28 |
celeron55 |
yes i could try to get to a point where i can just wipe it and install something sane like nixos on it (like this other one has, which as i've found isn't half bad for a server) |
| 18:30 |
celeron55 |
now i'll boot it from nixos very-ancient to slightly-less-ancient, wish me luck |
| 18:32 |
celeron55 |
i'll have a few versions to go after this. trying to not be reckless by skipping versions |
| 18:33 |
celeron55 |
yay, of course the forum broke due to a php upgrade |
| 18:33 |
celeron55 |
well at least it booted |
| 18:33 |
erle |
celeron55 do you have some kind of ingress caching thing like varnish or so or is it direct passthrough? |
| 18:33 |
ROllerozxa |
hmm oops |
| 18:34 |
ROllerozxa |
does nixos have some php74 package in the repos |
| 18:34 |
celeron55 |
i'll just prepare the next nixos upgrade, messing with phpbb right now would be insane |
| 18:34 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Discourse when |
| 18:35 |
erle |
is that another proprietary cloud offer from atlassian or a similar company? |
| 18:36 |
ROllerozxa |
it's some modern forum software |
| 18:36 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> https://github.com/discourse/discourse |
| 18:36 |
celeron55 |
if they have a phpbb import option which can gobble up our ancient database, it could be an option |
| 18:37 |
celeron55 |
but i'm not betting on that |
| 18:37 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> We've had this discussion |
| 18:38 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrate-a-phpbb3-forum-to-discourse/30810 |
| 18:42 |
erle |
i almost bet it's a laggy javascript webshit |
| 18:42 |
erle |
(the fun thing about laggy javascript webshits is that they tend to lag on almost every computer regardless of speed because of multiple network-condition things that apparently the devs never encounter because they are never accessing forums via moobile connections or so) |
| 18:42 |
celeron55 |
it is. the only reason phpbb isn't is that it was made 30 years ago |
| 18:43 |
jonadab |
Yes, please don't install any web-forum software that _requires_ Javascript for basic functionality. |
| 18:43 |
ROllerozxa |
phpbb is cosy |
| 18:43 |
erle |
i was a backend developer once but i was shoved into security matters after i complained a lot (this did not make me complain less, but other people took me more seriously because comlaining became my job) |
| 18:43 |
jonadab |
_Using_ Javascript if it happens to be available is fine. |
| 18:43 |
mrkubax10 |
if phpbb works then why change |
| 18:44 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Because it doesnt |
| 18:44 |
jonadab |
But the ones that require it are built on terrible js frameworks from hell and must die. |
| 18:44 |
erle |
never change a running system vs never run a changing system |
| 18:44 |
erle |
who would win |
| 18:44 |
jonadab |
phpbb has always been problematic, but in a different way |
| 18:44 |
erle |
also these js-only things are horrible for archival or accessability or “save as” in browsers |
| 18:44 |
erle |
i saw it recently on some page that wanted to tie several fedi links |
| 18:44 |
Krock |
phpbb is like Windows. it is an ancient piece of software that some may like it, others don't. It works and does the job so it's fine |
| 18:44 |
erle |
like half of them weren't working in archives |
| 18:45 |
mrkubax10 |
then what's the issue with phpbb |
| 18:45 |
erle |
windows right before the towers fell was the pinnacle of user interface design and XFCE is the only modern cosplayer carrying that torch |
| 18:45 |
erle |
(this is a hill i am willing to get slightly nauseous on) |
| 18:46 |
celeron55 |
yes, phpbb is really nice in being able to just save the page to archive something important |
| 18:46 |
celeron55 |
and it's very thin on system resources |
| 18:48 |
jonadab |
At one point PHPBB benefitted somewhat from its widespread deployment, on the "everybody already knows HTML" principle. (Except, s/HTML/PHPBB/.) MediaWiki likewise, but it's not really a discussion forum. |
| 18:48 |
* jonadab |
still fondly remembers majordomo. |
| 18:49 |
mrkubax10 |
idk just use Bubble over Gemini protocol then |
| 18:49 |
erle |
"everybody already knows HTML" |
| 18:49 |
erle |
gemini intentionally sucks |
| 18:49 |
erle |
gemini is just retro cosplay, the same way as pico8 is |
| 18:49 |
erle |
“oh let's do it VERY SIMPLE (except for that TLS stack we totally like)” |
| 18:50 |
jonadab |
erle: "everybody already knows HTML" dates to a time when most of the people on the internet *did* know HTML. Late nineties. |
| 18:50 |
erle |
yes |
| 18:50 |
jonadab |
Well, mid-to-late. |
| 18:50 |
erle |
prof. dr. dr. style |
| 18:51 |
mrkubax10 |
erle: are you using plain HTTP then? |
| 18:51 |
mrkubax10 |
because HTTPS is bad apparently (it has TLS!!!!) |
| 18:51 |
erle |
that's not it |
| 18:52 |
jonadab |
https isn't bad compared to http (unless you're trying to telnet into the port to diagnose issues with the server software, but that's rare for web services). |
| 18:52 |
jonadab |
But it does use SSL poorly, compared to e.g. ssh. |
| 18:53 |
jonadab |
It seems to be more concerned with "Did the person who runs this server pay money?" than "Is this server the same one you used last Tuesday, like you think it is?" |
| 18:53 |
erle |
what i am saying is not ”TLS bad” |
| 18:54 |
erle |
i am saying that gemini does indeed preserve some kind of complexity so that you can never implement it fully yourself |
| 18:54 |
erle |
the kind of complexity you don't want to do away with |
| 18:54 |
erle |
but like |
| 18:54 |
erle |
what about content negotiation? |
| 18:54 |
erle |
gemini does not have that |
| 18:54 |
erle |
jonadab do you know marginalia? |
| 18:55 |
mrkubax10 |
you know that I mentioned Gemini mostly as a joke even though I like it |
| 18:55 |
jonadab |
I do not. |
| 18:55 |
mrkubax10 |
maybe that was not obvious enough |
| 18:57 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> c55: one actually DOES simply upgrade OpenBSD ... but that's a new feature, within like the last year. You'd have to non-simply upgrade it a handful of times first to get it there now... |
| 18:58 |
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| 18:58 |
celeron55 |
are you joking, how did they do that with their non-existent resources and total focus on something entirely different than upgrades |
| 18:58 |
celeron55 |
does it work? |
| 18:59 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Well, it was never that complicated to begin with in principle it was just always maddeningly MANUAL. Apparently somebody must have gotten fed up with privately maintaining the script they used to do it and made it official. |
| 19:00 |
celeron55 |
well anyway, here we go, next boot |
| 19:00 |
celeron55 |
let the raffle begin |
| 19:01 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> It works, but with the same caveats as before. You still need to check their upgrade guide page to make sure there aren't any special exceptions. And you still need to do one release at a time, no skipping. And you still take certain risks, depending on how much you've customized. And you still have to manually review your config files with the merge tool (debian puts me though this too, but I rarely customize as much ... Mac OSX |
| 19:01 |
MTDiscord |
actually puts me through it too in their own way, but they just replace the files and give me my old copies separately) |
| 19:01 |
celeron55 |
well that sounds pretty much the same as with nixos |
| 19:01 |
celeron55 |
the only distro i've not felt is like that is fedora, which i use on my PCs |
| 19:02 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> If you're more than like 2 or 3 releases behind, though, I find it may make more sense to just backup, wipe, reinstall, and reapply your customizations from the git repo you made for that purpose after having done that for like the 3rd time. |
| 19:02 |
celeron55 |
it will refuse to dist-upgrade if something is wonky, or at least will tell you beforehand it's going to rm -rf / |
| 19:02 |
celeron55 |
and fedora even supports hopping over one release, any release you like |
| 19:02 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I haven't really noticed a ton of difference between distros/OSs in terms of how hard they are inherently to upgrade, so much as it just seems to be a function of how aggressively I've modified the system. |
| 19:03 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I don't think Debian supports skipping releases but Debian has other ways of making that issue moot 😏 |
| 19:03 |
celeron55 |
arch was the worst, they make their users go through ridiculous hoops or otherwise the system will very difficult to fix if you don't notice, or at least did 15 years ago |
| 19:05 |
celeron55 |
on the other hand i've heard fedora had issues back then also and they got their act together pretty much just before i got in |
| 19:05 |
celeron55 |
that's 9 years ago though |
| 19:08 |
celeron55 |
>If you're more than like 2 or 3 releases behind, though, I find it may make more sense to just backup, wipe, reinstall, and reapply your customizations from the git repo you made for that purpose after having done that for like the 3rd time. |
| 19:08 |
celeron55 |
but... i've had to do that zero times with Fedora |
| 19:08 |
celeron55 |
it's not worth the effort when you literally don't need it |
| 19:08 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> cool |
| 19:09 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I ran OpenBSD exclusively for a whie because it was the only unixlike that I had learned, and Linux was too messy and complex to pick up for a while. |
| 19:09 |
celeron55 |
the first time you do need it, it would have been worth the effort though |
| 19:09 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Eventually, I learned how to use Linux, so now I run OpenBSD decidedly non-exclusively. |
| 19:10 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> OpenBSD also taught me to source-control my configuration so I could detangle it from standard system crap, which has come in handy on Linux when I want to clone or move a setup. |
| 19:10 |
celeron55 |
in our game of guess-what-nixos-version-i'm-running-now, let's nix-channel our way out of yet another one |
| 19:11 |
celeron55 |
looks like the php error looks still the same |
| 19:16 |
muurkha |
warr1024:yup |
| 19:16 |
v-rob |
IMO, from my user perspective, phpBB is one of the best online pieces of software around. It's definitely better than very JavaScripty stuff like Discourse, and it's still cleaner and less annoying than kinda JavaScripty stuff like GitHub or Gitea. Client-side JavaScript just makes for a bad user experience for software that doesn't need much interactivity. |
| 19:16 |
celeron55 |
looks like the oldest version of php the most recent nixos will provide is 8.0.29. not sure if that will help with the error |
| 19:17 |
muurkha |
v-rob: I haven't tried Discourse |
| 19:17 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> phpBB is, like much of the php ecosystem, an unholy abomination that simply does really useful work by virtue of its absolute unwillingness to die. |
| 19:17 |
muurkha |
but generally I agree |
| 19:17 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> This flat "JavaScript bad" idea sounds influenced by bloated libs and modern oddities. JavaScript itself is fine... |
| 19:18 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> well JS itself is not completely fine, but there IS a fine subset in there :-) |
| 19:18 |
v-rob |
I've never had an account on any Discourse system, but https://discourse.libsdl.org/ is an example. Slow and annoying even without an account. |
| 19:18 |
muurkha |
the open-source Reddit codebase is a pretty decent experience, except on the majority of computers people use now, which are cellphones |
| 19:19 |
v-rob |
I don't like JS as a language much (it's a worse Lua), but that's not the point. If web browsers embedded Lua, client-side Lua would still lead to crappy interfaces like Discourse. |
| 19:19 |
v-rob |
Not to say that phpBB doesn't have any useful JS. For instance, clicking the buttons that add [b][/b] tags use JS, and that's definitely very nice. |
| 19:20 |
v-rob |
It's only a problem when the software relies on JS for its basic functionality, like Discourse or GitHub. |
| 19:20 |
celeron55 |
i don't think discourse is crappy due to lua. it's just a weird design compared to phpbb. it doesn't stick to the same UI design and discussion organization principles |
| 19:20 |
celeron55 |
eh |
| 19:20 |
celeron55 |
crappy due to javascript* |
| 19:20 |
v-rob |
When it gives me three seconds of JS loading bar, I' |
| 19:20 |
v-rob |
m not happy |
| 19:20 |
celeron55 |
it's somehow based instead of hierarchy based, or something |
| 19:20 |
celeron55 |
tag based* |
| 19:20 |
erle |
well js-mostly or js-only software usually divides the responsibilities differently |
| 19:20 |
celeron55 |
(apparently i can't type anymore) |
| 19:21 |
erle |
like they write an easy-to-write API |
| 19:21 |
erle |
and then try to cobble an interface together from it |
| 19:21 |
erle |
or so i have seen |
| 19:21 |
erle |
instead of first working out the interface requirements (which you are forced to do if you can't frankenbuild your html together out of js client-side) |
| 19:21 |
celeron55 |
i think php is seeing new relevance nowadays with its strict hierarchy as people grow exhausted from the extreme flatness of modern discussion platforms |
| 19:22 |
celeron55 |
phpbb* |
| 19:22 |
v-rob |
Gitea, on the other hand, is an annoying "we'll use client-side JS for important functionality, but we also automatically reload the page randomly to support no JS for people who don't want it" It's a special version of annoying. At least phpBB is consistent by always reloading when you press things like "Preview" |
| 19:23 |
v-rob |
This is, of course, not an endorsement of php or phpBB. It just so happens that these sorts of web apps are often written in php. (After all, if you're using Node.js, you're almost certainly using lots of client-side JS as well) |
| 19:24 |
v-rob |
But, life goes on. I just hope we keep using phpBB. |
| 19:27 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> If we could get the load time of a forum page down to 3 seconds, I'd be thrilled. |
| 19:27 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Hell, if you could get it under like 5 seconds, I might stop asking people to post screenshots instead of links 😆 |
| 19:27 |
v-rob |
I shudder to imagine the loading time with Discourse... |
| 19:28 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> The only Discourse forum I sometimes look at is https://blenderartists.org/ which doesnt have a terrible load time ... better than minetest forums at least |
| 19:30 |
celeron55 |
this is the only discourse forum i ever use. i think this one is nicely organized in a way discourse is supposed to be organized so that the main page looks lively enough https://forum.sailfishos.org/ |
| 19:33 |
celeron55 |
i think i could get used to our forum if it looked like that |
| 19:34 |
celeron55 |
of course, given it's a game forum it should have more themeing |
| 19:34 |
celeron55 |
currently it doesn't have almost any either |
| 19:34 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Discourse is configurable enough that we could even have a look similar to the current one, with a bit more optimized UX |
| 19:35 |
ROllerozxa |
assuming it is hosted on a server that can handle the software, sure I guess |
| 19:35 |
celeron55 |
showing the active topics on the front page is pretty useful. i use phpbb's new posts and unread posts pages a lot |
| 19:35 |
celeron55 |
but the hierarchy is important also. splitting the page between the two is smart |
| 19:36 |
celeron55 |
not that there's almost any hierarchy in discourse though. it's just a single level |
| 19:36 |
celeron55 |
(at least for what i've seen) |
| 19:37 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> It looks like they might support 2 levels of categories, but otherwise rely on tags |
| 19:37 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> I wonder if there are html-only micro forum frontends you could host alongside Discourse for the minority that refuses to run JS |
| 19:38 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Though it would have to be read only :p |
| 19:38 |
celeron55 |
rebooted again, forum error changed very very slightly. interesting |
| 19:38 |
celeron55 |
next up: the next version |
| 19:40 |
celeron55 |
uh oh, weird errors. i guess this is the time for actually reading some release notes |
| 19:40 |
ROllerozxa |
mediawiki is spitting out a bunch of deprecation warnings on 8.1 now |
| 19:41 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> A big driver of why I've leaned toward Linux and away from OpenBSD, even for servery stuff, is Docker (and to some degree Kubernetes). |
| 19:49 |
celeron55 |
error: file 'nixpkgs/nixos' was not found in the Nix search path |
| 19:49 |
celeron55 |
this looks pretty bad |
| 19:52 |
celeron55 |
ah it was nothing, just forgot to run nix-channel --update. too many upgrades already |
| 19:55 |
celeron55 |
now the target release is latest, 23.05 |
| 19:55 |
celeron55 |
if this works then it's the time for figuring out the php issues |
| 20:01 |
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| 20:03 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-meme-spongebob-doctor-revive-defibrillator-gif-5304585453076024179 |
| 20:03 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Dr Celeron will revive the server |
| 20:04 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Dang I forgot gifs don't go through the irc |
| 20:04 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> I mean, they "do", they just might not embed on some clients |
| 20:10 |
celeron55 |
laughing wasn't invented for IRC |
| 20:10 |
ROllerozxa |
IRC is serious business |
| 20:12 |
celeron55 |
aand reboot |
| 20:14 |
celeron55 |
okay so, the php version is now 8.1 |
| 20:15 |
celeron55 |
i wonder if 8.0 would help |
| 20:16 |
ROllerozxa |
phpbb was already broken on 8.0, but mediawiki looks to have worked fine on 8.0 |
| 20:16 |
erle |
> gifs |
| 20:16 |
erle |
> autoplay embed |
| 20:17 |
erle |
yeah that just makes it very easy for an enterprising joker to goatse everyone |
| 20:17 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Imagine not having a setting to disable autoplay |
| 20:17 |
erle |
also it's hell for battery lifetime |
| 20:17 |
erle |
imagine requiring explicit consent for playing videos in a clinet |
| 20:17 |
erle |
client |
| 20:18 |
celeron55 |
i don't understand how people can tolerate autoplaying videos on chat clients |
| 20:18 |
celeron55 |
it's infuriating |
| 20:19 |
celeron55 |
and then when you disable autoplay and click them to play, often there's no way to make them stop |
| 20:19 |
DeepThgt |
idk how most people can tolerate half the software they use |
| 20:19 |
erle |
yeah but that autoplay video thing is particularly distracting |
| 20:20 |
celeron55 |
looks like nix is telling me not to use php 8.0 because it depends on openssl 1.1 and that's considered insecure |
| 20:21 |
DeepThgt |
ok, general minor performance issue i have been battling, perhaps someone can clue me in. I am using a glider mod on my server, and notice visual jitter when flying. What do i need to be looking at serverside (or client side for that matter) to solve this? |
| 20:21 |
celeron55 |
well thanks for informing me but i only have about an hour left of this day |
| 20:21 |
DeepThgt |
things ive tried: playing with every setting that involves mapblocks in minetest.conf server-side |
| 20:22 |
erle |
DeepThgt how does this jitter look exactly? |
| 20:22 |
erle |
like i have no idea what ”visual jitter” is |
| 20:22 |
DeepThgt |
well, give me a moment and ill see if i can obs |
| 20:22 |
erle |
meanwhile, why does the red channel in my gimp go up to 500? https://mister-muffin.de/p/zZDV.png |
| 20:22 |
DeepThgt |
infrared, obviously |
| 20:23 |
DeepThgt |
sarcasm, i dont actually know |
| 20:23 |
ROllerozxa |
what version of phpbb are the forums running btw? 3.3.5 looks to be the first version that supports php 8.0 |
| 20:23 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I've heard clients complain about web design when the red error messages "aren't red enough" so maybe gimp finally has a solution for it. |
| 20:23 |
DeepThgt |
also, whoever chose phpbb over discourse |
| 20:23 |
DeepThgt |
thank you |
| 20:24 |
DeepThgt |
i hate discourse with a firey passion |
| 20:24 |
celeron55 |
erle: you're using the LCh colorspace. which is nice, but it does things like that |
| 20:25 |
celeron55 |
doesn't map very well to RGB |
| 20:25 |
celeron55 |
or, i mean, that's the way it maps |
| 20:26 |
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| 20:27 |
DeepThgt |
not the best video, but still shows the issue https://files.catbox.moe/vpg6vo.mkv |
| 20:27 |
DeepThgt |
you see when i take flight, the motion is laggy? |
| 20:28 |
celeron55 |
ROllerozxa: i'm not sure how to find out when it doesn't actually run |
| 20:28 |
celeron55 |
ROllerozxa: 3.2.x |
| 20:29 |
celeron55 |
3.2.10 at least, by grepping the code |
| 20:29 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> DeepThgt: Discourse didnt exist when phpbb was "chosen" |
| 20:29 |
DeepThgt |
i wish it still didnt exist :D |
| 20:30 |
erle |
celeron55 oh thanks. how do i disable it? |
| 20:30 |
celeron55 |
erle: well click the HSV button |
| 20:30 |
celeron55 |
but i do recommend LCh, it better corresponds to how eyes see colors |
| 20:30 |
celeron55 |
i.e. it's easier to make nice looking things using it |
| 20:31 |
erle |
celeron55 max is still 500 with HSV. the thing is, the *slider* only goes to 100 or 255. but then i can click the button to further make the number go up. |
| 20:31 |
erle |
the limit is like 5 times it should be |
| 20:31 |
erle |
it can also go to -500 |
| 20:31 |
erle |
what colorspace is this |
| 20:32 |
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| 20:32 |
celeron55 |
that's a bit weird but in terms of colorspaces red does go higher than 100% of what the RGB colorspace supports so it does still make sense |
| 20:33 |
celeron55 |
or, i mean in terms of the human eyesight |
| 20:33 |
erle |
celeron55 https://mister-muffin.de/p/SJAX.png |
| 20:33 |
erle |
this is HSV |
| 20:34 |
erle |
also note how i was able to make thegreen channel -1275.0 |
| 20:34 |
ROllerozxa |
celeron55: I mean it's worth a try to upgrade I guess, you've got backups of the current 3.2.10 forum install and database right |
| 20:35 |
ROllerozxa |
mediawiki looks to work fine though, as long as deprecation warnings are hidden |
| 20:35 |
celeron55 |
erle: that's probably already impossible or at least grossly unrealistic |
| 20:35 |
erle |
yes |
| 20:35 |
erle |
i wonder wtf is going on here |
| 20:36 |
DeepThgt |
11 - 14 sec in shows exactly the issue https://files.catbox.moe/y7sr1w.mkv |
| 20:36 |
DeepThgt |
im a little lost on what is causing it, client side ive had the issue on a pretty beefy system as well as low end ones |
| 20:38 |
erle |
DeepThgt are you rubberbanding? |
| 20:39 |
erle |
DeepThgt also does this happen in singleplayer? |
| 20:39 |
DeepThgt |
define rubberbanding and let me check |
| 20:41 |
celeron55 |
that's the wiki warnings hidden |
| 20:41 |
celeron55 |
was just a php_flag[display_errors] = off |
| 20:42 |
ROllerozxa |
yes, looks good |
| 20:42 |
erle |
my green channel goes to negative -1275 :( |
| 20:42 |
celeron55 |
now i need to choose whether to become a twig developer or whether to yolo a phpbb minor version upgrade |
| 20:42 |
erle |
what's a twig |
| 20:42 |
ROllerozxa |
PHP templating library |
| 20:45 |
DeepThgt |
the issue is not occuring on single player |
| 20:45 |
celeron55 |
i'll have to do a backup first |
| 20:45 |
celeron55 |
it's looking like no forum for tonight |
| 20:47 |
celeron55 |
i'll try a few hacks meanwhile |
| 20:47 |
celeron55 |
what |
| 20:47 |
celeron55 |
i just changed an if(something) to if(0) in twig |
| 20:47 |
celeron55 |
and now the forum loads |
| 20:48 |
ROllerozxa |
LOL |
| 20:48 |
celeron55 |
i'm deeply disappointed of the challenge |
| 20:48 |
celeron55 |
it's going to be pretty slow now as the backup is being made though |
| 20:51 |
erle |
is it a good idea to backup it WHILE it is running |
| 20:51 |
erle |
? |
| 20:51 |
ROllerozxa |
mariadb should be able to handle that |
| 20:51 |
celeron55 |
well, it's not going to catastrophically break |
| 20:52 |
celeron55 |
if some newly made attachment is in a badly synced state it doesn't really matter |
| 20:53 |
DeepThgt |
erle, postgres can handle live backups too |
| 20:53 |
celeron55 |
this is mariadb. i'd like postgres but migrations between them are practically impossible |
| 20:53 |
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| 20:53 |
celeron55 |
phpbb misuses each of its sql backends in creative ways that make 1:1 migrations very difficult |
| 20:54 |
DeepThgt |
ah |
| 20:54 |
celeron55 |
i tried it once, and failed |
| 20:54 |
DeepThgt |
i havent played with phpbb much really |
| 20:54 |
DeepThgt |
just installed on a vps once and failed to do anything with it |
| 20:54 |
celeron55 |
i'm not an sql guru though |
| 20:56 |
jonadab |
I use mariadb quite a bit and have used postgres a little, but I know nothing about the non-user-facing aspects of PHPBB, other than "it's written in PHP". |
| 20:57 |
DeepThgt |
erle, if by rubberbanding you are referring to the server complaining about me moving too fast like it does with the hacked clients then no |
| 20:57 |
DeepThgt |
log shows nothing unexpected |
| 20:58 |
jonadab |
In principle if the code uses a decent level of abstraction, it shouldn't _care_ which DB you're storing the data in. But PHPBB was written way back when PHP was _extremely_ terrible, so I can readily imagine that it might do odd things. |
| 20:58 |
DeepThgt |
was? |
| 20:59 |
DeepThgt |
oh as opposed to the simply terrible state its in |
| 20:59 |
celeron55 |
they pick the data types differently between mariadb and postgresql. like enum types and booleans |
| 20:59 |
jonadab |
DeepThgt: If you think PHP is terrible now, you have *no* concept of what terrible can really be. |
| 20:59 |
jonadab |
About twenty years ago, PHP was... so, so much worse. |
| 20:59 |
DeepThgt |
well, my first pc i owned myself was windows ME |
| 20:59 |
celeron55 |
php is pretty good today. the big companies that grew on it fixed basically all of it |
| 20:59 |
DeepThgt |
i have some concept of terrible |
| 20:59 |
jonadab |
Eh, WinMe isn't even one of the _bad_ versions of Windows. |
| 21:00 |
jonadab |
Well, ok, it's not one of the _good_ ones either. And that's relative, because we're talking about Windows. |
| 21:00 |
DeepThgt |
anything after 7 i dont really know |
| 21:00 |
DeepThgt |
i finally gave up on all that around then |
| 21:00 |
jonadab |
You don't want to. 7 is the best OS Microsoft has ever produced. |
| 21:00 |
DeepThgt |
i liked xp |
| 21:00 |
jonadab |
Vista with SP1 is second. XP with SP2 or later is third. |
| 21:00 |
DeepThgt |
i use void now |
| 21:00 |
celeron55 |
2000 was better than xp |
| 21:01 |
jonadab |
2000 was better than pre-SP2 XP. |
| 21:01 |
jonadab |
By a wide margin, actually. |
| 21:02 |
jonadab |
SP2 was a very big deal. |
| 21:02 |
erle |
DeepThgt no idea then :/ |
| 21:02 |
celeron55 |
still 2000 was the real deal. xp just rode on it first making it slightly worse and then slightly better |
| 21:03 |
jonadab |
Me got a bad rap because a lot of hardware manufacturers didn't do support it properly; but on supported hardware it was easily an improvement over 98SE. |
| 21:03 |
jonadab |
Not a _huge_ improvement, granted. |
| 21:04 |
celeron55 |
all Me brings to mind is a blue screen. frankly the same goes for every windows 9x also |
| 21:04 |
jonadab |
Well, yes, that product line never had memory protection. |
| 21:04 |
jonadab |
But most OSes at the time didn't. Mac certainly did not. |
| 21:04 |
jonadab |
(The various unices did, of course.) |
| 21:06 |
DeepThgt |
well, thanks anyway erle |
| 21:06 |
DeepThgt |
figured id ask before i just kept beating my head against the wall |
| 21:06 |
DeepThgt |
if i figure it out ill let ya know in case you encounter it |
| 21:10 |
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| 21:10 |
erle |
DeepThgt does it also happen if you attach to a minecart and go very fast |
| 21:10 |
celeron55 |
DeepThgt: my guess is the server is stopping to do some long calculation in Lua and while that's happening, the client is continuing to move the thing forward according to the velocity, and when the server then continues, it sends a new position to the client that is positioned rearwards from where it already moved to on client side |
| 21:10 |
DeepThgt |
erle, yes |
| 21:10 |
DeepThgt |
celeron55, that is ENTIRELY likely |
| 21:11 |
DeepThgt |
considering how hard we are hitting lua |
| 21:11 |
DeepThgt |
we had to switch to luajit cause we were maxing out the cpu with all the mods |
| 21:11 |
celeron55 |
the first workaround to that is, remove all mods that do any mapgen stuff at least |
| 21:11 |
celeron55 |
but you could also try to account for that problem |
| 21:11 |
DeepThgt |
technic is heavily used on the server as is mesecons |
| 21:11 |
celeron55 |
i mean, it's really just all about timing, and timing is measurable |
| 21:12 |
celeron55 |
i suppose someone could even write a framework to handle it. sounds awful, but it will take a long time for mods to develop enough background processing to allow the main server loop to run smoothly enough |
| 21:13 |
DeepThgt |
if by that you are implying that its lag due to worldgen, this occurs in areas that are heavily explored/previously generated |
| 21:13 |
erle |
have you tried profiling the mods |
| 21:13 |
celeron55 |
it's something else then |
| 21:13 |
celeron55 |
but you're looking for a mod that doesn't split processing nicely between server steps but instead elongates a step too much |
| 21:14 |
DeepThgt |
no, ty for the tip |
| 21:14 |
DeepThgt |
erle, ^ |
| 21:14 |
celeron55 |
it could be a mod that overall does a lot of processing. you could find it by basic profiling |
| 21:15 |
celeron55 |
i suppose we should have a tool that would allow profiling the maximum processing time each mod does instead of the average |
| 21:15 |
DeepThgt |
if i had to guess its technic thats killing us here |
| 21:44 |
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| 21:52 |
DeepThgt |
well, it appears line 381 of vector.lua is accounting for a good portion of the samples |
| 22:01 |
DeepThgt |
https://imgur.com/yYEKnYH.png |
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