| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:11 |
|
specing joined #minetest |
| 01:00 |
|
gh00p joined #minetest |
| 01:25 |
|
smk joined #minetest |
| 01:30 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> Guest54: that is a really good question. They were all there the last time I released, and now they're not |
| 01:30 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> @wsor any ideas? |
| 01:31 |
Guest54 |
i bet it got deleted because of some copyright |
| 01:31 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> > okay i was informed the older versions had copyright infringement |
| 01:32 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner i bet i'd not be the only person who would appreciate if you could put out a version that supports 5.4 there (it's in ubuntu LTS or something like that) without the offending files |
| 01:32 |
Guest54 |
anyways, i understand that cdb is doing this, no one wants to get steamrolled by copyright maximalists |
| 01:33 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> oh right, shouldn't i be notified of this? |
| 01:33 |
Guest54 |
well … if this is new to you, probably lol |
| 01:34 |
Guest54 |
maybe the prev maintainer got a mail? no idea when it was |
| 01:34 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i understand they have to do these things and act quickly, so no objections to the action |
| 01:34 |
Guest54 |
btw, you can remote control boats by attaching to something else |
| 01:34 |
Guest54 |
like, sit in a boat, get in a minecart, you still control the boat |
| 01:36 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> Guest54, if you use the forum post for compatability, you could probably get it from tags: https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/tags |
| 01:37 |
Guest54 |
Guest54, the thing is, cdb works by version numbers and you simply can't download it if your client is too old |
| 01:37 |
Guest54 |
i mean AncientMariner |
| 01:37 |
Guest54 |
but yes, i'll use that |
| 01:37 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=16407 |
| 01:37 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> yeah, I cannot do anything about copyright strike |
| 01:38 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> plus we only support the last 2 versions |
| 01:38 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> if you're on debian super stable, you might be a little too far from the bleeding edge 😛 |
| 01:38 |
Guest54 |
well you could tell me which files that were |
| 01:38 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> Download version 0.76.0 (for Minetest 5.4.1 / 5.5.1) (ca. 34 MiB) Download version 0.71.0 (for Minetest 5.3.0 / 5.4.0) (ca. 28 MiB) |
| 01:38 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> the forum post has it all |
| 01:39 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but the game has moved on a lot |
| 01:39 |
Guest54 |
wdym moved on |
| 01:39 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> you'd have more joy updating |
| 01:39 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> or using flatpak |
| 01:39 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> the game is unrecognisable from about 3 releases ago |
| 01:39 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> even more, and i cannot imagine it |
| 01:39 |
Guest54 |
not sure if i want it |
| 01:40 |
Guest54 |
also why is 0.82.0 50MB and 0.81.1 is 34MB |
| 01:40 |
Guest54 |
like what kind of bloat happened in between |
| 01:40 |
Guest54 |
or did someone finally add all the source files for the models? |
| 01:41 |
Guest54 |
or is that all new content? |
| 01:41 |
|
Trifton joined #minetest |
| 01:41 |
Guest54 |
i mean “unrecognizable” could be a 16MB difference |
| 01:41 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> music... |
| 01:42 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i mean we're a clone of minecraft, and minecraft... uh.... has... music |
| 01:42 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but if you want to call it bloat |
| 01:42 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> we can get it down to 1kb by deleting lots of code etc. if you'd like 🙂 |
| 01:42 |
Guest54 |
the ISO-9001 compatible stone |
| 01:42 |
Guest54 |
super secure |
| 01:42 |
Guest54 |
you just have to document how you made it! |
| 01:43 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> you'd probably get warmer responses from me if every change you see isn't followed by a negative comment about the change or the contributor |
| 01:44 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it's called giving people the benefit of the doubt.... |
| 01:46 |
Guest54 |
btw, did you recompress the 80kbps files from wave files to make the 64kbps files? if so, that may not be a good idea, you are losing quality each time. |
| 01:46 |
Guest54 |
i mean |
| 01:46 |
Guest54 |
sorry i am sleepy |
| 01:46 |
Guest54 |
you have to recompress them from the source, not the compressed version |
| 01:47 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> we had 80kb, we had 46kbs (which didn't sound great), and went with the middle ground, freshly from masters |
| 01:47 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> fortunately someone who knows much more about audio than i do did the magic |
| 01:47 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> also balanced everything to perceived volume |
| 01:47 |
Guest54 |
maybe minetest should get with the times and support ogg opus some day |
| 01:47 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> diminixed is a champ |
| 01:48 |
Guest54 |
i heard it is better than any other codec |
| 01:48 |
Guest54 |
opus i mean |
| 01:48 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i'm new to ogg opus, but a few months ago i was new to ogg 🙂 |
| 01:48 |
Guest54 |
do you have a link to the music used maybe? i like ambient music in general |
| 01:49 |
Guest54 |
like, not to the repo, but the original songs |
| 01:49 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i'm afraid not |
| 01:49 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> only in the repo |
| 01:49 |
Guest54 |
oh |
| 01:49 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i think i originally checked in the larger files |
| 01:49 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and then the smaller ones |
| 01:49 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> so in the git history, it may have the original |
| 01:49 |
Guest54 |
but you are sure they are correctly permissively licensed? |
| 01:49 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> (if we had it) |
| 01:49 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> yes, all cc-by-sa 3 or 4 |
| 01:50 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> all by the artists themselves |
| 01:50 |
Guest54 |
i see |
| 01:50 |
Guest54 |
btw, ogg is just an encapsulation format for stream data. it is a very clever one though, that works seamlessly for both web streaming and local playback. |
| 01:50 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> wsor will be ready for me if i don't check that 🙂 |
| 01:51 |
|
Bombo joined #minetest |
| 01:51 |
|
Bombo joined #minetest |
| 01:52 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> * if someone complains or notices |
| 01:53 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but it's good. keeps us on our toes. we have to protect mcl2 and mt |
| 01:53 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> ip vultures be circling |
| 01:53 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner you should check chicken egg probably |
| 01:54 |
Guest54 |
throwing a chicken egg on the ground creates a chicken that flies into the sky |
| 01:54 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> we have 780 bugs. with all due respect, i couldn't give a flying... egg about this one right now 😉 |
| 01:55 |
Guest54 |
well, it *used* to work and it kinda makes chicken farming useless unless you do it in a cave |
| 01:55 |
Guest54 |
also it looks extremely funny |
| 01:55 |
Guest54 |
i suggest you check it out for the comedic value |
| 01:55 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> can also breed chickens 🙂 |
| 01:55 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> your complaint has been forwarded to /dev/null :trollface: |
| 01:55 |
Guest54 |
i thought chickens laid eggs |
| 01:56 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i mean, they do |
| 01:56 |
Guest54 |
but they also breed normally? |
| 01:56 |
Guest54 |
TIL |
| 01:56 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but you can get chickens from the eggs, or i'm assuming standard breeding with seed |
| 01:56 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> pretty sure they do |
| 01:56 |
Guest54 |
all animals are genderless and breed everytime they eat lol |
| 01:56 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> horny and hungry mobs |
| 01:56 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> floating trees |
| 01:57 |
Guest54 |
ok i think the world is just borked |
| 01:57 |
Guest54 |
lamas look up too |
| 01:57 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> yup, got a bug for the llama one |
| 01:57 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> they a bit weird |
| 01:58 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> what do you mean by borked? |
| 01:58 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and what world? |
| 01:58 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> created on version and playing on version? |
| 02:00 |
Guest54 |
i understood it |
| 02:01 |
Guest54 |
it seems someone mishandled mobs near the map border |
| 02:01 |
Guest54 |
and i was close enough |
| 02:01 |
Guest54 |
i make a screenshot |
| 02:06 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> probably me |
| 02:06 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> they now freeze. we had some out of bounds crashes, and it was one of the mitigations |
| 02:06 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i may, or may not revisit it at some point |
| 02:06 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but you'll survive it 🙂 |
| 02:08 |
Guest54 |
uh what |
| 02:08 |
Guest54 |
you might have been off by a few nodes with your bounds |
| 02:08 |
Guest54 |
mobs do not stop at the map border, they stop *before* they reach it |
| 02:09 |
Guest54 |
also i think they can still move, e.g. the chickens move skywards |
| 02:09 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i know |
| 02:09 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and i know i was off |
| 02:09 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i'm not a perfectionist 🙂 |
| 02:09 |
Guest54 |
if it is about out of bounds crashes, i *think* a player just needs to get high enough |
| 02:09 |
Guest54 |
https://mister-muffin.de/p/izOE.png |
| 02:09 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i thought i'd rather players kill a frozen mod then them going out and crashing |
| 02:10 |
Guest54 |
this is how chickens and lamas look skywards btw |
| 02:10 |
Guest54 |
okay, but what kind of crash is fixed by it? |
| 02:10 |
Guest54 |
(and why not fix that crash?) |
| 02:10 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> none, it was a mitigation to avoid it. i have since learnt a bit more about the issue |
| 02:10 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but it's a 2 year old bug |
| 02:11 |
Guest54 |
oh no, is this the get_light thing? |
| 02:11 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> get_natural_light will sporadically crash with what looks like an out of bounds warning |
| 02:11 |
Guest54 |
it's some kind of cursed bug that drives people to do weird stuff |
| 02:11 |
Guest54 |
are you sure the area is loaded? |
| 02:11 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i checked for ignore, it is |
| 02:11 |
Guest54 |
have a link to the crash? |
| 02:11 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but maybe things near it, aren't |
| 02:11 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but the code seems to emerge it |
| 02:12 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i'm going to have to dig a bit more into it at some point |
| 02:12 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but i've now wrapped every get_natural_light call in a pcall so we can avoid the crash |
| 02:14 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> the link to it is: https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues/1392 (ignore the non-relevent stuff) |
| 02:15 |
Guest54 |
so why are the mobs still being stupid aronud the border if you mitigated it otherwise, can't you just git revert it? |
| 02:16 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> lol, i have other priorities |
| 02:16 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and of the issues we have, that is low down 🙂 |
| 02:16 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i may, revisit it at some point |
| 02:16 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but in terms of making a great game, it affects very few players |
| 02:16 |
Guest54 |
that still does not answer *why* |
| 02:17 |
Guest54 |
like, “git revert” is one command |
| 02:17 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> why? because if i do work on anything, it won't be that |
| 02:17 |
Guest54 |
anyways, i pushed out a mob in a boat and the game did not crash |
| 02:17 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and i'm not sure that'll help anyway |
| 02:17 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i want to get to the root of the issue before mitigations are removed |
| 02:18 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it's a sporadic crash |
| 02:18 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> if i could recreate it, it would be lovely |
| 02:18 |
Guest54 |
> Lua: Runtime error from mod '??' in callback luaentity_Step(): createSector(): pos. over max mapgen limit |
| 02:18 |
Guest54 |
i think a) that's an engine issue b) you should not be able to trigger it using mobs that move out of the map anyway |
| 02:19 |
Guest54 |
if you looked into how the thing works … there is an entire unused shell around the map |
| 02:19 |
Guest54 |
that is invisible |
| 02:19 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> a) i think you're right, and i do need to raise a ticket, or add to another one |
| 02:19 |
Guest54 |
i can show you the ticket probably |
| 02:19 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> b) it crashed mobs originally, which is why i went down that path |
| 02:19 |
Guest54 |
but anyway, what are you doing that tries to do that? |
| 02:20 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i think i saw a ticket where you discussed this |
| 02:20 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> what do you mean? |
| 02:20 |
Guest54 |
could be similar to this one https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11835 |
| 02:20 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but if you have a link, it'd be appreciated |
| 02:21 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> ah, yeah. i have that one bookmarked |
| 02:21 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> same issue, maybe different cause |
| 02:21 |
Guest54 |
well, if that is indeed the same issue (which i kinda doubt) the problem is that no one believes me when i say things about the map border lol |
| 02:22 |
Guest54 |
the gist of it is that every time something happens at the visible map border, someone wants to do stuff with “MAX_MAP_GENERATION_LIMIT”, but that is entirely the wrong way to do it |
| 02:22 |
Guest54 |
it's just plausible if you don't think too much about it |
| 02:22 |
Guest54 |
in general though you should not be able to trigger the mapgen that far |
| 02:23 |
Guest54 |
anyways, whatever you did to the mobs so they stop doing things will not help you, since there is an entire invisible mapblock before you can actually trigger that issue, if i am not mistaken |
| 02:24 |
|
Lesha_Vel joined #minetest |
| 02:24 |
Guest54 |
i'll test it for a bit |
| 02:24 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> maybe, it will, maybe it won't |
| 02:24 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but until i get a root cause, i'm not removing mitigations |
| 02:24 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> having servers crash frequently is not ok imho |
| 02:24 |
Guest54 |
it's not a mitigation if you are not mitigating anything |
| 02:25 |
Guest54 |
and yes, having servers crash is not okay |
| 02:25 |
Guest54 |
so what does your pcall thing do? |
| 02:25 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it's a protected call. lua error handling |
| 02:26 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it catches the exception and carries on without taking down the server |
| 02:28 |
Guest54 |
can you save a trace or so |
| 02:28 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> errr, it'll give you the first line, but not the full stack |
| 02:28 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> xpcall gives you the full stack |
| 02:28 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but it's not supported in the bundle lua (luajit) |
| 02:29 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> as it's a 5.2 features, and it was forked at 5.1 |
| 02:29 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i miss java, you can catch an exception easily and log it |
| 02:29 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> many languages have much better and more intuitive error handling |
| 02:34 |
Guest54 |
you are only a nil away from total chaos in lua lol |
| 02:36 |
Guest54 |
hahaha, throwing an egg at the frozen mobs makes them fly to the moon |
| 02:38 |
Guest54 |
okay, i found out that you can, indeed crash the server using eggs. |
| 02:38 |
Guest54 |
and that's at the *real* world border, not the arbitrary one where the mobs stop walking |
| 02:38 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> ha, what? you crashed it with an egg? |
| 02:39 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> if i can keep that from crashing, i'd keep that bug. i love the sound of it |
| 02:40 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and by real, do you mean the visible one, or the non visible engine one? |
| 02:40 |
Guest54 |
the invisible one |
| 02:40 |
Guest54 |
the visible border is not real |
| 02:41 |
Guest54 |
you can easily figure that out by pushing a boat “outside the map” |
| 02:41 |
Guest54 |
or placing tnt in the invisible part and lighting it up |
| 02:41 |
Guest54 |
(you will see the boat and the tnt entity) |
| 02:42 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but these are scenarios that players on a survival server cannot trigger |
| 02:43 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> surely they're academic, rather than real recreations? |
| 02:43 |
Guest54 |
if you say so |
| 02:43 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> are you saying they can? |
| 02:43 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> without a cheat client? |
| 02:43 |
Guest54 |
i generally take pride in glitching without a cheat client, hehe |
| 02:44 |
Guest54 |
yes, players can get entities and nodes outside the visible area without a cheat client. they actually do. |
| 02:44 |
Guest54 |
i have seen a server in which someone figured out that placing boats out of the visible area enabled them to hop between the boats |
| 02:44 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> It's all academic until someone brings out the cheat client 8) |
| 02:44 |
Guest54 |
as a kind of teleport |
| 02:44 |
|
Alias joined #minetest |
| 02:45 |
Guest54 |
jordan4ibanez has a funny map border story, mesecons button used to crash when adjacent to an unloaded mapblock |
| 02:45 |
Guest54 |
the map border is permanently unloaded |
| 02:45 |
Guest54 |
so jordan tried to “fix” that by adding an explosion to the thing |
| 02:46 |
Guest54 |
needless to say this would have created the opportunity for a crashloop using a step-on-plate and a hopping mod or so |
| 02:46 |
Guest54 |
because if you actually crash the game the map might not be saved |
| 02:47 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Yes yes, I do miss that explosion fix, it was such a simple implementation. My second favorite was if you pushed a button at the world border it would crash the entire server, I don't remember how though sadly |
| 02:47 |
Guest54 |
it was simply that the „is this powered on” function choked on ignore, i.e. it could have happened if you brought mesecons close enough to a not-yet-generated area |
| 02:48 |
Guest54 |
also how come everything you fix is explosions lol |
| 02:48 |
Guest54 |
i remember jordancreepers |
| 02:48 |
Guest54 |
lizzy said that a jordencreeper exploded an entire house lol |
| 02:48 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Oh god, what about pooping santa |
| 02:49 |
Guest54 |
what |
| 02:49 |
Guest54 |
do you have a pooping santa mod? |
| 02:49 |
Guest54 |
in general, the only game i remember that uses poop is mesecraft |
| 02:49 |
Guest54 |
cows poop in it |
| 02:50 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> In crafter it was utilizing a raycast sphere to allow explosion force, but I never thought to implement absorption, so the explosion would literally chew through anything that wasn't obsidian. It was just brutal |
| 02:50 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Let me see if I can find it |
| 02:50 |
Guest54 |
maybe you want to play liero with me? |
| 02:50 |
Guest54 |
it has explosions |
| 02:50 |
Guest54 |
lots of them |
| 02:50 |
Guest54 |
and blood |
| 02:52 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I am so confused by my own comments but here it is https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=4075 |
| 02:53 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> That looks pretty dang cool |
| 02:53 |
Guest54 |
haha, found another crash |
| 02:54 |
Guest54 |
hmm can i use those to barter? |
| 02:59 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Oh, instead of having a hard limiter in c++, ancientmariner could do a hard limiter override of minetest get area loaded and do a 2d out of bounds check instead and if it's out of bounds. Or you could do a custom one that chains is area loaded with the bounds check hmmm hmm hmm |
| 03:00 |
Guest54 |
or maybe, just maybe, this is just a stupid thing because people forget nil checks |
| 03:00 |
Guest54 |
and do not believe in unit tests |
| 03:00 |
Guest54 |
or fuzzing, for that matter |
| 03:00 |
Guest54 |
or semgrep |
| 03:01 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Hmmm |
| 03:01 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Wait You're onto something there |
| 03:01 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> What if we could unit test mods |
| 03:03 |
Guest54 |
if only there was some person explaining that shit |
| 03:03 |
Guest54 |
i heard someone even wrote a book on that topic |
| 03:03 |
Blockhead256[m] |
jordan4ibanez: there's a project for that, mineunit: https://github.com/S-S-X/mineunit |
| 03:03 |
Guest54 |
https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/en/quality/unit_testing.html |
| 03:03 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Damn, everyone gets to my ideas first hahaha |
| 03:04 |
Blockhead256[m] |
that's why it pays to do market research :) |
| 03:10 |
|
Verticen_ joined #minetest |
| 03:20 |
Guest54 |
found another crash lol |
| 03:20 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner can i trade crashes against “texture packs and mods that rely on existing texture names work again”? |
| 03:23 |
Blockhead256[m] |
allow me to introduce override.txt |
| 03:27 |
Guest54 |
Blockhead256[m] does not work for stuff that relies on texture names, like this mod https://content.minetest.net/packages/rudzik8/mcl_decor/ |
| 03:27 |
Guest54 |
well, i have a bunch of crashes and maybe a way to find more of them |
| 03:27 |
Guest54 |
programmatically |
| 03:28 |
Blockhead256[m] |
:( your right |
| 03:28 |
Blockhead256[m] |
* you are you're |
| 03:28 |
Guest54 |
and i'll trade access to that knowledge for “don't break third-party mods” |
| 03:28 |
Guest54 |
i think that's a fair deal |
| 03:30 |
Blockhead256[m] |
I mean it would be nice to have an API like minetest.get_texture_override(basenode) -> table |
| 03:31 |
Guest54 |
what why |
| 03:31 |
Guest54 |
what would that API even do |
| 03:34 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Looks like it would get the original texture in the chain? |
| 03:35 |
Blockhead256[m] |
Return the tiles table for a node but according to the current texture pack. Because I don't think override.txt updates that table (could be wrong), and it's a semantic way of saying "this face of this node" instead of an absolute texture reference |
| 03:35 |
Blockhead256[m] |
it is a lot of indirection though really so it's probably better to just tell people to fix their stuff on the texture pack side |
| 03:35 |
Guest54 |
why would you want the tiles according to the texture pack |
| 03:35 |
Guest54 |
it's transparent as far as i know |
| 03:36 |
Guest54 |
like you just use the same names as the node you are stealing from? |
| 03:36 |
Guest54 |
maybe i am too sleepy |
| 03:36 |
Guest54 |
can you even get at special textures via node properties? |
| 03:37 |
Blockhead256[m] |
"special textures" (special_tiles) are a node property.. they're registered that way.. so yes.. |
| 03:38 |
Blockhead256[m] |
anyway: I mean we are talking about the context of re-using textures from a base game right? So imagine you want a new modded crafting table, and you want to make sure it doesn't hardcode the crafting table's texture names. You'd use the get_texture_override API |
| 03:38 |
Blockhead256[m] |
that way any texture pack that overrides and potentially changes the crafting table's textures also automatically looks right thanks to the mod author |
| 03:39 |
Guest54 |
maybe |
| 03:39 |
Blockhead256[m] |
but like I said, this is a lot of indirection and is only useful if override.txt files don't alter minetest.registered_nodes entries, which I didn't think |
| 03:39 |
Blockhead256[m] |
or another perspective again: maybe you shouldn't use custom texture names in your texture pack without a good name. Then it would work anywya |
| 03:52 |
|
Noisytoot joined #minetest |
| 03:57 |
Blockhead256[m] |
*without a good reason |
| 04:00 |
|
MTDiscord joined #minetest |
| 04:12 |
|
MTDiscord joined #minetest |
| 04:26 |
|
Pexin joined #minetest |
| 05:14 |
|
YuGiOhJCJ joined #minetest |
| 05:22 |
|
olliy joined #minetest |
| 05:33 |
|
Noisytoot joined #minetest |
| 06:14 |
|
Noisytoot joined #minetest |
| 06:15 |
|
calcul0n joined #minetest |
| 06:18 |
|
An[m]1 joined #minetest |
| 06:28 |
|
Elon_Satoshi joined #minetest |
| 06:51 |
|
Noisytoot joined #minetest |
| 06:57 |
|
Elon_Satoshi joined #minetest |
| 07:01 |
|
definitelya joined #minetest |
| 07:01 |
|
Noisytoot joined #minetest |
| 07:03 |
|
Trifton joined #minetest |
| 07:18 |
|
Noisytoot joined #minetest |
| 07:25 |
|
staceee joined #minetest |
| 08:11 |
|
mrkubax10 joined #minetest |
| 08:17 |
|
proller joined #minetest |
| 08:23 |
|
orwell96 joined #minetest |
| 09:26 |
|
YuGiOhJCJ joined #minetest |
| 09:42 |
|
mrkubax10 joined #minetest |
| 09:48 |
|
amfl2 joined #minetest |
| 10:15 |
|
orwell96 joined #minetest |
| 10:29 |
|
fling joined #minetest |
| 10:51 |
MinetestBot |
[git] SmallJoker -> minetest/minetest: Limit formspec fields to 640K (#13380) d975ebd https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/d975ebdcb98512c8b7c17af4a95481238a520078 (2023-04-07T10:49:23Z) |
| 10:51 |
MinetestBot |
[git] SmallJoker -> minetest/minetest: Lua API: Catch serialization error for chat messages (#13337) 9c9309c https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/9c9309cdbb053598aaf08506928a4824e78b4622 (2023-04-07T10:49:35Z) |
| 12:38 |
|
Guest54 joined #minetest |
| 13:03 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner I have a semgrep rule that finds like 20 opportunities for crashes or so ^^ |
| 13:09 |
Guest54 |
does anyone have a ready-made script to download all of cdb? i think my approach to automated crash-finding may do the crashy in other mods too |
| 13:13 |
Guest54 |
AncientMariner again, i am willing to trade all my knowledge on the crashes, plus an automated approach for preventing the entire category of errors for “texture packs and mods do not break in the next release of mcl2”. if you don't want that, find them yourself, good luck. |
| 13:14 |
Guest54 |
(you will, eventually. it is just more work) |
| 13:15 |
|
olliy1or joined #minetest |
| 13:16 |
Oblomov |
I'm seriously offended that https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/d975ebdcb98512c8b7c17af4a95481238a520078 didn't put “640K should be enough for everyone” anywhere in the title, body or patch |
| 13:16 |
Guest54 |
Oblomov i am serously offended that bookbanning is now banned |
| 13:17 |
Guest54 |
now minetest will NEVER reach feature parity with minecraft |
| 13:18 |
Guest54 |
how can you ever deny the users to write books that are like a bazillion jiggabytes |
| 13:18 |
Guest54 |
!!! |
| 13:22 |
rubenwardy |
Oblomov: it is in the patch |
| 13:22 |
|
Verticen_ joined #minetest |
| 13:22 |
rubenwardy |
But with ought |
| 13:22 |
rubenwardy |
Which is correct, as the original quote is “640K ought to be enough for anybody" |
| 13:23 |
Oblomov |
oh damn, you're right, I missed it |
| 13:23 |
Oblomov |
fair enough |
| 13:26 |
|
dabbill joined #minetest |
| 13:37 |
muurkha |
I think the quote is fake anyway |
| 13:40 |
|
turtleman joined #minetest |
| 13:42 |
muurkha |
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.folklore.computers/c/mpjS-h4jpD8 |
| 13:44 |
|
Desour joined #minetest |
| 13:44 |
Guest54 |
muurkha do you have experience with semgrep btw? |
| 13:44 |
|
proller joined #minetest |
| 13:45 |
muurkha |
no |
| 13:45 |
muurkha |
it sounds cool |
| 13:45 |
Guest54 |
so i wrote a rule to find crashes after verifying 3 crashes in mcl2 that i found with my automated approach |
| 13:45 |
Guest54 |
and i found 262 possible crashes across 22 games i have installed |
| 13:45 |
Guest54 |
makes about 10 crashes per game on average |
| 13:45 |
Guest54 |
ofc some games are bigger, like mcl2 and mesecraft |
| 13:45 |
muurkha |
more recent investigation: quoteinvestigator.com/2011/09/08/640k-enough/ |
| 13:46 |
Guest54 |
but i wonder now what other bugs to find automatically |
| 13:46 |
Guest54 |
like, obviously breaking bedrock and duping items |
| 13:46 |
muurkha |
is "crashes per game" the right metric? |
| 13:46 |
Guest54 |
it should be crashes per invocation of the functionality in question probably |
| 13:46 |
Guest54 |
like, i have a positive rule that catches all invocations of an API |
| 13:46 |
Guest54 |
and then a negative rule that rejects the finding if the thing is used properly |
| 13:47 |
Guest54 |
let me see |
| 13:48 |
Guest54 |
muurkha haha it's worse, 262 findings vs 294 use of the functionality |
| 13:48 |
Guest54 |
thanks for the hint |
| 13:49 |
Guest54 |
that's almost 90% unsafe code |
| 15:07 |
|
Talkless joined #minetest |
| 15:26 |
|
Noisytoot joined #minetest |
| 15:29 |
|
FreeFull joined #minetest |
| 15:48 |
|
lemonzest joined #minetest |
| 16:30 |
|
independent56 joined #minetest |
| 16:33 |
independent56 |
Let's say i did the 2023 or 2024 game jam using ChatGPT and Dall-E for most assets and code, where i just provide the direction and prompting and debugging and stressing. Would it be fair for me to win or would it be against the spirit of the jam? Where is the breakpoint that AI-helped content is banned? Debugging? Code generation? Idea generation? |
| 16:35 |
independent56 |
Would it be considered cheating to begin development 6 months before the announcement? |
| 16:37 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> > Would it be considered cheating to begin development 6 months before the announcement? per past rules, yes |
| 16:38 |
independent56 |
Oh, ok then fine |
| 16:39 |
independent56 |
So i can't just submit Mineclone 3 and then say "i maintain this fork, give me the $400" dammit |
| 16:40 |
Guest54 |
> Where is the breakpoint that AI-helped content is banned? Debugging? Code generation? Idea generation? |
| 16:41 |
Guest54 |
if you let your code be generated by an autocomplete on crack, you are *probably* doing something weird |
| 16:41 |
Guest54 |
the thing is not that computers can not write programs, they can |
| 16:41 |
Guest54 |
any idiot can write running programs (for various values of “running”) |
| 16:42 |
Guest54 |
the problem is those need to a) follow the specs b) need to use actual functionality, not hallucinated one |
| 16:42 |
Guest54 |
for assets though, i don't see the issue unless it gets spammy |
| 16:43 |
Guest54 |
like i'm pretty sure if you want to make midjourney texture pack it's not bad, but if you submit 10k of them, the wardens of cdb will just tell you to bugger off |
| 16:44 |
Guest54 |
meanwhile in the city of r'lyeh https://mister-muffin.de/p/Vu3-.png |
| 16:44 |
Guest54 |
minetest should have more weird biomes |
| 16:44 |
Guest54 |
“this place is not a place of honor” style ones |
| 16:49 |
muurkha |
doing weird things is definitely what we should encourage |
| 16:49 |
muurkha |
I don't know if midjourney has an option for generating tileable textures yet |
| 16:52 |
Guest54 |
the ikea and backrooms things are funny in a way |
| 16:52 |
Guest54 |
having an entire game underground could also be a thing |
| 16:52 |
Guest54 |
or underwater |
| 16:53 |
|
mrkubax10 joined #minetest |
| 17:03 |
|
bodiccea joined #minetest |
| 17:07 |
|
sparky4 joined #minetest |
| 17:23 |
|
Yad joined #minetest |
| 17:24 |
|
independent56 joined #minetest |
| 17:25 |
independent56 |
Guest4558, I had an idea for a post-apocoloyptic wasteland. You spend most of your time in the Paris metro eating baguettes from the floor as protests rage above, so the entire game is underground in a way |
| 17:25 |
independent56 |
And you get killed by a train every now and then |
| 17:26 |
Guest54 |
independent56 why |
| 17:26 |
Guest54 |
also independent56 have you made any minetest mods? |
| 17:26 |
independent56 |
Because i'm british and digging at the french is what i do |
| 17:26 |
independent56 |
Yes, i made britsignals |
| 17:26 |
independent56 |
To negative critic reception to say the least |
| 17:26 |
Guest54 |
i must say that “digging at the french” gave the brits a tunnel |
| 17:27 |
independent56 |
But i am generally very bad at modding and most of my mods are unpublished for a reason |
| 17:27 |
Guest54 |
ultimately the french won, connecting the UK to the mainland |
| 17:27 |
independent56 |
I want to do great things but there's something about programming for userspace rather then Minetest that makes it easier |
| 17:27 |
independent56 |
It was really to send high-speed projectiles to them again |
| 17:28 |
independent56 |
You can even put cars in it for extra potency |
| 17:28 |
Guest54 |
wdym |
| 17:29 |
Guest54 |
programming for userspace |
| 17:29 |
independent56 |
hexchat, image viewers, other things |
| 17:29 |
independent56 |
I have made quite a few |
| 17:29 |
independent56 |
http://56independent.gitlab.io/portfolio/ |
| 17:32 |
independent56 |
I did make this mod: https://content.minetest.net/uploads/7e902a4e84.png |
| 17:32 |
independent56 |
https://content.minetest.net/uploads/d69795c01b.png |
| 17:32 |
independent56 |
I really like it |
| 17:32 |
independent56 |
https://content.minetest.net/packages/56independent/britsignals/ |
| 17:36 |
|
definitelya_ joined #minetest |
| 17:37 |
Guest54 |
independent56 do the signals disable the tracks? |
| 17:37 |
independent56 |
No signals yet |
| 17:37 |
|
germ joined #minetest |
| 17:38 |
independent56 |
lol |
| 17:41 |
|
Boingo joined #minetest |
| 18:02 |
|
independent56 joined #minetest |
| 18:27 |
|
proller joined #minetest |
| 18:30 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 19:15 |
|
Desour joined #minetest |
| 19:49 |
|
Trifton joined #minetest |
| 20:55 |
|
sec^nd joined #minetest |
| 20:59 |
|
Yad__ joined #minetest |
| 21:02 |
|
Yad joined #minetest |
| 21:04 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 21:04 |
|
Talkless joined #minetest |
| 21:06 |
|
Yad__ joined #minetest |
| 21:09 |
|
Yad joined #minetest |
| 21:11 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 21:13 |
|
Yad__ joined #minetest |
| 21:16 |
|
Yad joined #minetest |
| 21:19 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 21:20 |
|
Alias joined #minetest |
| 21:21 |
|
Yad__ joined #minetest |
| 21:24 |
|
Yad joined #minetest |
| 21:26 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 21:28 |
|
Yad__ joined #minetest |
| 21:31 |
|
Yad joined #minetest |
| 21:33 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 21:35 |
|
Yad__ joined #minetest |
| 21:38 |
|
Yad joined #minetest |
| 21:41 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 21:43 |
|
Yad__ joined #minetest |
| 21:46 |
|
Yad joined #minetest |
| 21:48 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 21:50 |
|
Yad__ joined #minetest |
| 21:53 |
|
Yad joined #minetest |
| 21:55 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 21:57 |
|
Yad__ joined #minetest |
| 22:00 |
|
Yad joined #minetest |
| 22:02 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 22:04 |
|
Yad__ joined #minetest |
| 22:07 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 22:10 |
|
Yad joined #minetest |
| 22:12 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 22:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> During the mass battles on my server (30 players + 10 allies vs 500 to 1000 hostiles) most players get "enough" network packets, while a specific user's client who is on a pretty slim connection (1 MiB) seems to be overwhelmed by the amount of packets. The server settings are (active_object_send_range_blocks = 5) and (max_packets_per_iteration = 65535). I don't know if (max_simultaneous_block_sends_per_client = 1500) also plays a role, |
| 22:13 |
MTDiscord |
since the issue seems to be entities, not blocks. The server step is 0.047 Question: Is there a CLIENT setting to limit or optimize the packets received? Like "nearby entites first" ? |
| 22:14 |
|
Yad__ joined #minetest |
| 22:17 |
|
Yad joined #minetest |
| 22:18 |
Guest54 |
Bastrabun have you looked into the hostiles behaviour code? are they maybe doing unreasonably lots of stuff? |
| 22:19 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 22:21 |
Guest54 |
Bastrabun i'd probably try to deal with it server-side by sending less packets for entities in the first place, but 1000 entities sounds like a lot! |
| 22:21 |
|
Yad__ joined #minetest |
| 22:21 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> Ofc the hostiles do a lot of stuff. Like ... trying to kill us 😄 |
| 22:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> It's not a problem of dtime though, server is mostly fine. |
| 22:22 |
Guest54 |
Bastrabun, you do realize though that every update of a hostile may mean a packet? |
| 22:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> Problem arises when this one specific player's connection gets clogged with packets, that's what we need to optimize. Does sight range help? |
| 22:23 |
Guest54 |
i do not know what kind of entities you have, but simply giving them more coarse behaviour when they are further from a player may help |
| 22:23 |
Guest54 |
share the source code of the hostiles if you want me to look at it |
| 22:24 |
Guest54 |
the only time i saw more than 400k/s was buggy buggy bugs |
| 22:24 |
Guest54 |
at least for entities |
| 22:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> Each entity a packet? That sounds not very likely, don't server steps or network steps combine their actions into one packet? |
| 22:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> Those hostiles are very normal stone monsters of mobs_monster |
| 22:24 |
Guest54 |
let me see what they do then, have a link to the source code? |
| 22:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> All they have is a fancy nametag |
| 22:25 |
Guest54 |
each entity *change* might result in bandwith use |
| 22:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> Sure. You can also visit the testserver where we are trying to reenact the battle and see if other settings may help |
| 22:25 |
Guest54 |
did you look at the packets in wireshark? |
| 22:25 |
Guest54 |
well let me compile minetest anew, i have address sanitizer turned on and that makes it crash |
| 22:25 |
Guest54 |
(bc memory leak ig) |
| 22:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> The client did and said "conenction clogged" |
| 22:25 |
Guest54 |
well address weirdness in this case |
| 22:26 |
Guest54 |
also, thread sanitizer makes it slow, so i need to recompile brb |
| 22:26 |
Guest54 |
where is the testserver? |
| 22:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> We're using those: https://notabug.org/TenPlus1/mobs_monster/src/master/stone_monster.lua |
| 22:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> address: your-land.de port 30001 |
| 22:26 |
Guest54 |
ok i look at it while compiling |
| 22:26 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 22:26 |
Guest54 |
i remember that your-land.de had a very nice testing regimen. have you tried using semgrep to eliminate bugs? if so, can i see your rules? |
| 22:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> I haven't heard of semgrep yet |
| 22:27 |
Guest54 |
it's a way to match ASTs |
| 22:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> AST? |
| 22:28 |
Guest54 |
abstract syntax trees |
| 22:28 |
Guest54 |
semgrep understands the languages it is parsing |
| 22:28 |
Guest54 |
do you know python? |
| 22:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> Not enough |
| 22:28 |
Guest54 |
in python you can import modules under another name |
| 22:29 |
Guest54 |
with grep, if you want to figure out where function foo is used, you grep for foo(.*) or so |
| 22:29 |
|
Yad joined #minetest |
| 22:29 |
Guest54 |
with semgrep, you use the pattern foo(...) but it will also find the following |
| 22:29 |
Guest54 |
import foo as bar |
| 22:29 |
Guest54 |
bar(baz) |
| 22:29 |
Guest54 |
because semgrep knows that bar is the same as foo in this case |
| 22:30 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> Can this tool tell me how many network packets are sent out per entity per step? |
| 22:30 |
Guest54 |
for C you can for example search for a pattern like: free($POINTER); ... ; free($POINTER) |
| 22:30 |
Guest54 |
no, but i might be able to tell you if it sends too many when i look at the code, let's see |
| 22:31 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 22:31 |
Guest54 |
i have debugged multiple mods that sent too many packets |
| 22:32 |
Guest54 |
why does it say “ -- check surrounding nodes and spawn a specific spider” |
| 22:32 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> most likely a copy paste error |
| 22:33 |
|
Yad__ joined #minetest |
| 22:34 |
Guest54 |
can you show me the mobs mod that it depends on? |
| 22:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> https://notabug.org/tenplus1/mobs_redo |
| 22:35 |
Guest54 |
ok |
| 22:35 |
Guest54 |
thx |
| 22:36 |
|
Yad joined #minetest |
| 22:37 |
Guest54 |
is notabug.org very slow or is it me? |
| 22:38 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> No, notabug IS very slow |
| 22:38 |
Guest54 |
why though, that's *really* stupidly slow |
| 22:38 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 22:38 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> You do not happen to have an account on the YL gitea instance? |
| 22:39 |
Guest54 |
i do not |
| 22:39 |
Guest54 |
> NotABug is experiencing an issue. |
| 22:39 |
Guest54 |
RIP mobs_redo |
| 22:41 |
|
Yad__ joined #minetest |
| 22:44 |
|
Yad joined #minetest |
| 22:45 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> Coz there's the modified code and branches. I doubt we did much to mobs_redo or mobs_monster though. Incase notabug refuses to do anything, you could get the stuff there as well. Until we're happy with code quality and all secrets player shouldn't know about are stored away they're private |
| 22:46 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 22:47 |
Guest54 |
Bastrabun i downloaded it from cdb |
| 22:47 |
Guest54 |
> Until we're happy with code quality and all secrets player shouldn't know about are stored away they're private |
| 22:47 |
Guest54 |
mcl2 managed to put secrets hiding in plain sight though |
| 22:47 |
Guest54 |
like how to duplicate items :D |
| 22:48 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> Then they're smarter than I am 😄 |
| 22:48 |
Guest54 |
(no longer working AFAIK) |
| 22:48 |
Guest54 |
no, it was more … emergent behaviour |
| 22:48 |
|
Yad__ joined #minetest |
| 22:51 |
|
Yad joined #minetest |
| 22:53 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 22:55 |
|
Yad__ joined #minetest |
| 22:58 |
|
Yad joined #minetest |
| 23:00 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 23:02 |
|
Yad__ joined #minetest |
| 23:05 |
|
Yad joined #minetest |
| 23:07 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 23:09 |
|
Yad__ joined #minetest |
| 23:12 |
|
Yad joined #minetest |
| 23:14 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 23:16 |
|
Yad__ joined #minetest |
| 23:19 |
|
Yad joined #minetest |
| 23:22 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 23:24 |
|
Yad__ joined #minetest |
| 23:26 |
* muurkha |
p;oints at Yad |
| 23:26 |
|
Yad joined #minetest |
| 23:28 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 23:30 |
|
Yad__ joined #minetest |
| 23:33 |
|
Yad joined #minetest |
| 23:35 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 23:36 |
|
Verticen_ joined #minetest |
| 23:37 |
|
Yad__ joined #minetest |
| 23:40 |
|
Yad joined #minetest |
| 23:42 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 23:44 |
|
Yad__ joined #minetest |
| 23:45 |
|
AliasAlreadyTake joined #minetest |
| 23:47 |
|
Yad joined #minetest |
| 23:48 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 23:50 |
|
Yad__ joined #minetest |
| 23:53 |
|
Yad joined #minetest |
| 23:55 |
|
Yad_ joined #minetest |
| 23:57 |
|
Yad__ joined #minetest |
