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Mowgli |
Hi.. |
| 11:02 |
Lesha_Vel |
hello |
| 11:03 |
Mowgli |
I am here because of bug #13381 |
| 11:03 |
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Mowgli |
The main problem is that with on_use defined, the repeating action is disabled. |
| 11:04 |
Mowgli |
How to reenable it again? |
| 11:06 |
Mowgli |
Anybody here who have an idea? :-) |
| 11:07 |
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independent56 |
It's nice to see more and more innovation in Minetest over time |
| 13:01 |
independent56 |
Technic and Pipeworks were innovative at their time and after a few years, new mods pushed further. Techage, Advtrains, Ladybug game thing, and others are all pushing the boundaries of what's possible |
| 13:02 |
independent56 |
With the rise of AI and the community, it might grow exponentially |
| 13:02 |
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independent56 |
I'm currently teaching myself techage and it feels like Pipworks, Technic, Meseconds, and various Mesecons_addons are all being mixed together in a cohesive system. |
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independent56 |
There are even parrelels to digilines |
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independent56 |
Ugh, i feel like my mesecons, Technic, and digilines knowladge has all been obsoleted |
| 13:09 |
independent56 |
First, ChatGPT and now this? |
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independent56 |
!tell Yad, Fix your connection please |
| 13:21 |
MinetestBot |
independent56: I'll pass that on when Yad, is around |
| 13:21 |
independent56 |
!tell Yad , Fix your connection please |
| 13:21 |
MinetestBot |
independent56: yeah, sure, whatever |
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independent56 |
whoops, trailing comma |
| 13:22 |
independent56 |
!tell Yad_ , Fix your connection please |
| 13:22 |
MinetestBot |
independent56: I'll pass that on when Yad_ is around |
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independent56 |
Wrong username! What tough luck i must have! |
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MinetestBot |
Yad: Apr-08 13:21 UTC <independent56> , Fix your connection please |
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MinetestBot |
Yad_: Apr-08 13:22 UTC <independent56> , Fix your connection please |
| 13:29 |
independent56 |
Haha |
| 13:29 |
independent56 |
sorry lol |
| 13:29 |
independent56 |
I only rejoined once; you about erm... 15 times. |
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Guest54 |
!tell Yad +++ATH0 |
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MinetestBot |
Guest54: I'll pass that on when Yad is around |
| 13:36 |
Guest54 |
i found the holy grail in hyperrogue! |
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Guest54 |
turns out that the sequence hex-hex-hept-hex-hex-hept is almost a straight line |
| 13:36 |
Guest54 |
and if you construct a perpendicular to a chord in a circle on the hyperbolic plane, you can iterate yourself towards the grail |
| 13:37 |
Guest54 |
https://old.reddit.com/r/Hyperrogue/comments/ooliaw/just_tried_to_find_the_holy_grail_for_like_45/ |
| 13:37 |
Guest54 |
well, it's an equidistant curve of a straight line |
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Guest54 |
since it took me a long time to find the grail (it is in the middle of a circle with radius 28, but the circle is on the hyperbolic plane), I am now 110% convinced that users that ask for non-euclidean geometry are either pretty masochistic players of games … or have no idea what non-euclidean means |
| 13:40 |
Guest54 |
Kimapr you should try hyperrogue, it is less difficult than nodecore skyhell, but every mistake is entirely your own fault |
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MinetestBot |
Yad: Apr-08 13:35 UTC <Guest54> +++ATH0 |
| 13:41 |
Kimapr |
i did play hyperrogue |
| 13:41 |
Guest54 |
how far did you get? |
| 13:41 |
Guest54 |
i rescued the princess today and found the holy grail |
| 13:42 |
Kimapr |
hmm i didn't do any of those things |
| 13:42 |
Kimapr |
idk |
| 13:42 |
Guest54 |
did it appeal to you, being a big mean riddle? |
| 13:42 |
Guest54 |
also do you have tips for other extremely masochistic game experiences? |
| 13:42 |
Guest54 |
dwarf fortress does not count, because there, again, you are not responsible for every mistake |
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Guest54 |
i believe battle for wesnoth kinda counts. after all, people whining about “unfair RNG” are actually saying they can not handle the odds. |
| 13:44 |
Guest54 |
Kimapr did you beat the plane of eternal running where the floor falls down? if you collect 10 phoenix feathers there you get the orb of safety, which allows you to save your game and escape enemies in the same instant |
| 13:44 |
Guest54 |
it is one of the starting planes |
| 13:45 |
Kimapr |
hmm i think i remember something like that |
| 13:45 |
Guest54 |
the interesting thing is that because of the hyperbolic geometry you should always be able to escape the dogs |
| 13:45 |
Guest54 |
they literally can not reach you |
| 13:45 |
Guest54 |
because their path gets longer as the floor falls down behind you |
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Guest54 |
i wish minetest had strange floor tilings hehe |
| 13:48 |
Guest54 |
wang tiles in minetest when |
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Goobax |
hello |
| 13:50 |
Guest54 |
hi |
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Goobax |
who wants to help me to develop my minetest server |
| 13:52 |
Guest54 |
what do you need help with? |
| 13:52 |
Guest54 |
if it is a small task, i may be able to give advice, but i can not guarantee it |
| 13:53 |
Goobax |
I'm hiring developer |
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Guest54 |
Goobax why do you need to hire someone? is the task very complex? |
| 13:54 |
Guest54 |
or a lot of work? |
| 13:54 |
Goobax |
yes |
| 13:54 |
Goobax |
a lot of work |
| 13:54 |
Guest54 |
maybe you should describe what you need first. i thought you want to develop mods or so. |
| 13:55 |
Guest54 |
in case you need an independent implementation of some minetest stuff, i suggest to look into the work that anon5, himbeerserver_de and fleckenstein did |
| 13:56 |
Goobax |
I would like to create my own inventory not the inventory of minetest on this inventory I would like to put a faction menu with the homes and the recipes |
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| 13:56 |
Guest54 |
you mean you need help making a formspec? |
| 13:56 |
Goobax |
it's what |
| 13:57 |
Goobax |
? |
| 13:57 |
Guest54 |
formspec language allows you to specify a kind of dialog window that the client sees |
| 13:57 |
Guest54 |
for example the inventory dialog |
| 13:57 |
Guest54 |
or help dialogs |
| 13:57 |
Guest54 |
or furnace interface |
| 13:57 |
Guest54 |
you need that? |
| 13:57 |
Guest54 |
have you checked out existing inventory mods? |
| 13:59 |
Goobax |
yes I'm watching I don't like it |
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Guest54 |
btw, cora and me yesterday worked out last night why convert(1) from imagemagick flips images upside down (e.g. any TGA image with a scanline order bottom-top is flipped) and what to do about it. you have to pass -auto-orient to imagemagick. |
| 14:02 |
Guest54 |
this actually triggers the bug in imagemagick twice: the image is mistakenly flipped, then mistakenly flipped again |
| 14:02 |
Guest54 |
which means it is right side up |
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Guest54 |
the reason for the bug is that imagemagick developers map both scanline order and orientation data (e.g. exif) to the same data structure. so if you have an image format in which the scanline order is not fixed (AFAIK both TGA and BMP have this option), half of possible images are mistakenly flipped upside down on conversion. |
| 14:05 |
Guest54 |
this is, of course, extremely stupid, but bugs against imagemagick were so far answered with “the previous behaviour was a bug and we fixed it“ |
| 14:05 |
Guest54 |
that every other image processing tool outside of imagemagick is able to distinguish orientation information and scanline order must look like a bug to them as well ;) |
| 14:06 |
Guest54 |
-auto-orient seems not to work for montage(1) though. i think it is because at that point the images are mistakenly flipped thrice, once during blitting. |
| 14:06 |
Guest54 |
but that is only a suspicion, i have not dived too deep into it |
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Guest54 |
anyways, if convert(1) flips your image upside down, use -auto-orient to trigger the flip twice |
| 14:07 |
Guest54 |
that's still a bug to everyone except the imagemagick developers |
| 14:07 |
Guest54 |
but it mostly works lol |
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Guest54 |
in fact, because earlier, non-buggy imagemagick versions would not do the mistaken mapping, they should not flip anything at all with -auto-orient – which looks the same as flipping upside down twice obv |
| 14:08 |
Guest54 |
i also investigated texture atlases |
| 14:09 |
Guest54 |
and it turns out that using a texture atlas is a much better idea than putting 2000 PNG files in a zip |
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Guest54 |
because each PNG file in the zip has about 64 byte overhead minimum + the PNG data format overhead |
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Guest54 |
the difference between texture atlases and separate files is so huge that zipping all letters for mcl_signs as optimized PNG makes a 48kb zip, zipping them as TGA makes a 38kb zip … but uncompressed TGA texture atlas size is 14kb and PNG texture atlas size is 1.4kb |
| 14:12 |
Goobax |
can you help me? |
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Guest54 |
this basically means that almost everything i have read about texture optimization for minetest in terms of both transfer and storage size is wrong by about an order of magnitude |
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Guest54 |
oh, also a zlibbed tga texture atlas is about the same size as an optimized png texture atlas, but is much faster to create |
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Guest54 |
i also found that the PNG footer is constant and thus its checksum is also a constant. hilarious. |
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independent56_ |
Why are all the modders so much more capable then me? What should i do to outcompete them? |
| 14:29 |
Guest54 |
independent56_ the only winning move is not to play |
| 14:29 |
independent56_ |
https://content.minetest.net/users/joe7575/ It's absolutely rediculous people can get this far whilst i am entirely unable to! |
| 14:29 |
independent56_ |
Guest54, Yes but i have to play somewhere. |
| 14:29 |
Guest54 |
independent56_ this is not a competition |
| 14:29 |
Guest54 |
independent56_ if you want to make a cool mod, just do it |
| 14:30 |
Guest54 |
independent56_ do you want mod ideas on what to implement? |
| 14:30 |
independent56_ |
Yes but the problem is i don't have long-lasting motivation whatsoever |
| 14:30 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> Every awesome mod someone else makes is an awesome mod you still get to use, but do not need to put in one second of coding time! |
| 14:30 |
Guest54 |
hehehehe |
| 14:30 |
independent56_ |
oh ok then |
| 14:30 |
Guest54 |
independent56_ if you do not have long-lasting motivation, make smaller mods |
| 14:31 |
independent56_ |
Yes but then i have to maintain them |
| 14:31 |
Guest54 |
independent56_ one of my more popular mods is bushy leaves, which just changes leaves to render as a nice nodebox |
| 14:31 |
independent56_ |
intresting |
| 14:31 |
Guest54 |
independent56_ https://content.minetest.net/packages/erlehmann/bushy_leaves/ |
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| 14:31 |
independent56_ |
I'll look into such mods |
| 14:31 |
Guest54 |
it is very small, but over 3000 downloads |
| 14:32 |
Guest54 |
or this one, which changes the tip of a lever to red if the lever is on: https://content.minetest.net/packages/erlehmann/mcl_lever_status_indicator/ |
| 14:32 |
independent56_ |
good idea |
| 14:32 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> In this case you could contribute to someone else's mods. Then you still get to code, at your own pace, but the boring administration tasks is left to the maintainer. If you're searching for things to do, we have a bugtracker full of tasks on my server and most other maintainers are also happy if you hand in PRs for their issues. |
| 14:32 |
Guest54 |
meanwhile, xmaps, which renders ingame maps, has only 700 something downloads https://content.minetest.net/packages/erlehmann/xmaps/ |
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| 14:33 |
independent56_ |
That's also intresing |
| 14:33 |
Guest54 |
independent56_ do you need ideas for small mods? |
| 14:33 |
independent56_ |
No, i can make them myself |
| 14:34 |
Guest54 |
what ideas do you have? |
| 14:34 |
independent56_ |
But then of course, why should i contribute to mods when i can contribute to the minetest engine? |
| 14:34 |
independent56_ |
Navigating large mods is someitmes more difficult then an engine curated by a large community |
| 14:35 |
Guest54 |
mods are easier to write |
| 14:35 |
Guest54 |
IMO no mod should be particularly large ;) |
| 14:35 |
independent56_ |
why not? |
| 14:35 |
independent56_ |
Techage is perfectly fine being large? |
| 14:36 |
Guest54 |
techage is a mod pack |
| 14:36 |
Guest54 |
several mods together |
| 14:36 |
Guest54 |
independent56_ if you want to do something that is quickly done: 3d ladders. i.e. ladders like they look in repixture, but for normal minetest game |
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Guest54 |
i bet people will use that |
| 14:36 |
Guest54 |
i would, for example |
| 14:36 |
Guest54 |
but i am not motivated enough to make it myself ;) |
| 14:37 |
independent56_ |
Fine then |
| 14:38 |
independent56_ |
It seems quite simple; steal it from repixture and rebrand it |
| 14:38 |
independent56_ |
just like store-brand crisps |
| 14:38 |
independent56_ |
(which take from brands) |
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appguru |
Guest54: This already exists, see https://content.minetest.net/packages/Linuxdirk/redef/ |
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Guest54 |
appguru nice thanks |
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Guest54 |
appguru look at the logs, i found that texture atlases are unreasonably efficient lol |
| 14:39 |
appguru |
yeah I saw lol |
| 14:39 |
independent56_ |
damn |
| 14:39 |
independent56_ |
give me another idea |
| 14:39 |
appguru |
Interestingly artists also seem to like working with atlases |
| 14:40 |
Guest54 |
appguru not accoring to the mcl2 fanclub! according to that crowd, artists prefer working with a directory of 2300 small png files. |
| 14:40 |
Guest54 |
(when zipped, each file has about 100 byte overhead, due to zip + png) |
| 14:40 |
appguru |
It would probably be useful if there was a tool for artists to easily map regions of the image to (conceptual) textures |
| 14:41 |
Guest54 |
texture editors are good enough as far as i know |
| 14:41 |
appguru |
and then in the code you'd have a function T such that T"texname" would simply resolve to the appropriate [sheet texture modifier to extract the relevant portion from the atlas |
| 14:41 |
Guest54 |
that's not that simple |
| 14:41 |
Guest54 |
i mean you can do it in lua prob |
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Guest54 |
i also looked into actually supporting unicode using texmods, but i think rendering the text directly is a bit better |
| 14:42 |
Guest54 |
it can work, by using 2 large texture atlases of about 2MB |
| 14:42 |
Guest54 |
one for plane 0, one for plane 1 |
| 14:43 |
MinetestBot |
[git] RodentOfUnusualSize -> minetest/minetestmapper: Fix `dumpnodes` crash on deprecated tile field name 7af222d https://github.com/minetest/minetestmapper/commit/7af222dd9de079fc0efb8a7138997ea45da9d5e8 (2023-04-08T14:32:29Z) |
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Guest54 |
appguru could you maybe make a PR for xmaps to show me how you would handle the callbacks? |
| 14:44 |
Guest54 |
i want to make xmaps an API with pluggable renderers |
| 14:44 |
Guest54 |
and for that i need it to work lol |
| 14:45 |
appguru |
sure |
| 14:45 |
Guest54 |
thanks! |
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Guest54 |
appguru did you see my musings about filtering control characters? |
| 14:48 |
independent56_ |
Guest54, throw another idea my way |
| 14:49 |
Guest54 |
independent56_ make a nodebox that replaces each node with “sponge” in the name with a menger sponge fractal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menger_sponge |
| 14:49 |
appguru |
Guest54: not sure, could you link them again? |
| 14:49 |
Guest54 |
appguru i can repeat them here, hehe |
| 14:49 |
independent56_ |
How deep? |
| 14:49 |
Guest54 |
independent56_ whatever looks good |
| 14:49 |
Guest54 |
independent56_ make a nodebox mess |
| 14:50 |
Guest54 |
appguru basically, you need to filter everything that messes with lua at the input, after decoding the data, but everything that messes with the terminal at the output, after encoding the data. |
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| 14:50 |
appguru |
ah that |
| 14:50 |
Guest54 |
appguru filtering ANSI escapes at the input is not only conceptually wrong, it lures you into a false sense of security. it also requires that you check every input for every output. |
| 14:50 |
independent56_ |
Intresting idea. Should i keep the same texture? |
| 14:51 |
appguru |
Guest54: Lua handles byte strings just fine. |
| 14:51 |
Guest54 |
independent56_ no idea. look at the sponge in nodecore to see how it could look |
| 14:51 |
independent56_ |
No, the same texture as the original node |
| 14:51 |
Guest54 |
appguru well i thought you can do table injection using \02 and \03 or so? |
| 14:51 |
appguru |
It's Minetest which has problems with null terminators, and possibly \27 (ANSI escape) depending on how the strings are used. |
| 14:51 |
appguru |
Table injection? |
| 14:52 |
Guest54 |
appguru which problem happens with escape? |
| 14:52 |
appguru |
Guest54: Minetest uses escape sequences for translations and colors |
| 14:52 |
Guest54 |
where? |
| 14:52 |
appguru |
chat for example |
| 14:52 |
appguru |
but also formspecs |
| 14:53 |
appguru |
most (all?) places where text is shown |
| 14:53 |
Guest54 |
ah, then i was mistaken about it only mattering in terminal output! |
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| 14:53 |
appguru |
Guest54: I think for terminal output ideally %q should be used |
| 14:53 |
appguru |
But anyways |
| 14:53 |
Guest54 |
appguru that syntax is gnarly |
| 14:54 |
appguru |
I'm not proposing stripping escape sequences at an engine level |
| 14:54 |
Guest54 |
nope |
| 14:54 |
Guest54 |
they are needed after all |
| 14:54 |
appguru |
But for processing inputs which should only be text, it is a sane thing to do |
| 14:54 |
appguru |
Text may not contain control characters, period |
| 14:54 |
appguru |
of course stripping control characters alone doesn't magically make the text "safe", but it at least makes it slightly more secure |
| 14:55 |
Guest54 |
appguru oh also my coworker and me talked about control characters. turns out that you should probably not filter those that are not known to be malicious. and if you filter them, you need to act on the *decoded* codepoints, not the input bytes. i hope you do that? |
| 14:55 |
appguru |
safe to pass around* |
| 14:55 |
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| 14:55 |
Guest54 |
i strongly advice to reject known-bad inputs and not sanitize them, see LANGSEC |
| 14:55 |
Guest54 |
advise |
| 14:55 |
appguru |
Guest54: Well, rejecting is more work :P |
| 14:55 |
Guest54 |
usually it is not lol |
| 14:55 |
appguru |
fair |
| 14:55 |
Guest54 |
but in this case, your solution of stripping escapes makes a mess of the rest of the escape sequence |
| 14:56 |
appguru |
yes |
| 14:56 |
Guest54 |
you probably want to strip the entire escape sequence |
| 14:56 |
Guest54 |
it's not too hard |
| 14:56 |
appguru |
no |
| 14:56 |
Guest54 |
they start with escape |
| 14:56 |
Guest54 |
why not |
| 14:56 |
appguru |
you aren't supposed to enter escape sequences in text input fields |
| 14:57 |
Guest54 |
how do you know i am not? after all, the code allowed it ;) |
| 14:57 |
Guest54 |
anyways, if escape sequences are what you want to protect against, you need to scan for escape sequences |
| 14:58 |
Guest54 |
and btw, terminals usually ignore unknown escape sequences AFAIK |
| 14:58 |
appguru |
as for filtering out only the malicious control characters, yes, I let them keep \t and \n |
| 14:58 |
sfan5 |
I would say "PRs welcome" but a PR would not actually be welcome, nitpicking this is a waste of time |
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| 14:59 |
Guest54 |
well, incorrect filtering has introduced security vulnerabilities in the past, that's why i am saying it |
| 14:59 |
Guest54 |
not in minetest as far as i know |
| 14:59 |
appguru |
nobody is claiming that this filter is 100% secure |
| 14:59 |
Guest54 |
but like, edge or internet explorer had an XSS filter … that transformed non-XSS payloads into XSS |
| 14:59 |
appguru |
it's just better than... no filter |
| 14:59 |
Guest54 |
yeah but i am claiming you can make it 100% secure regarding your attack scenario |
| 15:00 |
appguru |
arguably I do not operate at a UTF-8 level; doing so would effectively require involving https://github.com/appgurueu/modlib/blob/master/utf8.lua |
| 15:00 |
Guest54 |
does minetest only use C0 control characters or also C1? |
| 15:01 |
appguru |
Guest54: I think just stripping \27 is reasonable. This will effectively disable Minetest and ANSI escape sequences, without having to add more logic to specifically remove those escape sequences. |
| 15:01 |
Guest54 |
appguru they can be caught by a simple regex though if i am not mistaken |
| 15:01 |
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| 15:01 |
appguru |
Well too bad we don't have RegEx. |
| 15:01 |
Guest54 |
like sed -e 's/\x1b\[[0-9;]*m//g' |
| 15:01 |
appguru |
(Lua patterns aren't full RegEx) |
| 15:01 |
Guest54 |
removes all colors |
| 15:02 |
Guest54 |
unless i am talking out of my ass here |
| 15:02 |
appguru |
I'm not sure whether Lua patterns would be sufficient |
| 15:02 |
appguru |
But either way, I don't see a reason to overcomplicate this |
| 15:02 |
Guest54 |
you can scan for escape [ %d+ m |
| 15:02 |
appguru |
I might as well filter only \0 |
| 15:02 |
Guest54 |
btw, why is color in this case a problem? |
| 15:03 |
appguru |
color isn't really a problem |
| 15:03 |
Guest54 |
the sequence CSI %d+ m is used for color, right? where CSI is escape [ |
| 15:04 |
Guest54 |
appguru what is it that you are filtering then? |
| 15:04 |
appguru |
Minetest (translation & color) and ANSI escape sequences (not limited to color) |
| 15:04 |
Guest54 |
oh what does translation use? |
| 15:05 |
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| 15:05 |
appguru |
\27(T something)...\27E or something IIRC |
| 15:06 |
Guest54 |
well, i think code should not only be correct, but obviously correct. i.e. it should state its purpose. but i see that it is more difficult to write a pattern (though i think that patterns are powerful enough) |
| 15:06 |
appguru |
anyways, back to xmaps |
| 15:06 |
appguru |
do you want me to kick players who can't receive dynamic media? ^^ |
| 15:06 |
Guest54 |
anyways, just in case you want to do a more general filtering on engine level: please operate on the correct level (bytes vs codepoints) and filter at the correct stage (input vs output) |
| 15:06 |
Guest54 |
appguru what the hell no |
| 15:07 |
appguru |
hehe thought so |
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| 15:07 |
Guest54 |
why would you |
| 15:07 |
appguru |
to make them rejoin |
| 15:07 |
Guest54 |
so they receive the media? |
| 15:07 |
appguru |
yes |
| 15:07 |
appguru |
(and to bully them into upgrading) |
| 15:07 |
Guest54 |
look i put a map on the wall and someone using minetest 5.3 comes along and gets kicked |
| 15:07 |
Guest54 |
rejoins … and gets kicked again? |
| 15:08 |
Guest54 |
or how do you envision it |
| 15:08 |
appguru |
if the map updates, yes lol |
| 15:08 |
Guest54 |
thanks, i hate it |
| 15:08 |
appguru |
mission accomplished ^^ |
| 15:08 |
Guest54 |
wait, minetest 5.3 has dynamic media |
| 15:08 |
Guest54 |
let's say minetest 5.1 |
| 15:08 |
Guest54 |
again, bullying is not something i like |
| 15:09 |
Guest54 |
(unless, of course, if it is consensual) |
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Guest54 |
appguru i just want the thing where it is not racy in minetest 5.5+ |
| 15:09 |
appguru |
yeah, doing it right now |
| 15:10 |
Guest54 |
thank you |
| 15:10 |
appguru |
and not kicking < 5.3 clients ^^ |
| 15:10 |
Guest54 |
and if you feel like it, maybe ensure the map is only sent to whoever sees is in range and not everyone |
| 15:10 |
Guest54 |
that does constitute an info leak and also packet spam |
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| 15:12 |
Guest54 |
hmm, mesh reconstruction sure seems slow :/ |
| 15:12 |
Guest54 |
i have a noticeable delay sometimes between placing a node and seeing it |
| 15:12 |
Guest54 |
was it always like that? |
| 15:12 |
Guest54 |
like it is sub-second, but weird |
| 15:12 |
appguru |
btw |
| 15:13 |
appguru |
should these maps be cached on the client (non-ephemeral)? |
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| 15:13 |
appguru |
Guest54: I think sending only to people in range isn't really possible |
| 15:13 |
appguru |
That would require delaying sending the entity until you've had a chance to send them the media |
| 15:13 |
Guest54 |
appguru yes they should |
| 15:14 |
Guest54 |
i don't understand, please explain |
| 15:14 |
Guest54 |
like what is the scenario here |
| 15:15 |
Guest54 |
hmm, repixture pigs really can't swim and die to make food instead |
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appguru |
hmm lol I think I just realized something, I have to remove players from the to_receive table if they leave |
| 15:16 |
appguru |
Guest54: As soon as you use dynamic media, all clients that might ever get in contact with it must have received it. |
| 15:17 |
appguru |
Scenario: You do not sent dynamic media to a client. Later on, the server sends the entity using the dynamic media you have not sent (yet). You now try to send the dynamic media but it is too late, the entity arrives before the media. |
| 15:17 |
appguru |
did not send* |
| 15:17 |
Guest54 |
wait can't you change the texture on an entity later on |
| 15:17 |
Guest54 |
or am i mistaken about that |
| 15:18 |
Guest54 |
or respawn the entity? |
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appguru |
Yes, you could redistribute the media to all clients in proximity each time a new client gets in proximity. |
| 15:18 |
Guest54 |
like, send dynamic media, respawn it, or is it too late? |
| 15:18 |
Guest54 |
how do *you* do it? |
| 15:18 |
Guest54 |
like in your own mods |
| 15:18 |
Guest54 |
i am glad you have thought about it |
| 15:18 |
Guest54 |
usually people who have solved problems before have deeper insights (sometimes not, ofc) |
| 15:18 |
appguru |
I must bite the bullet and send to all players |
| 15:19 |
Guest54 |
for what in particular in your mods? skins? |
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| 15:21 |
appguru |
skins, yes |
| 15:21 |
Guest54 |
appguru you can do the “send to all players” thing ofc, if you don't have the motivation to work it out. after all, i am doing that right now. |
| 15:21 |
Guest54 |
but please file an issue then |
| 15:21 |
Guest54 |
regarding the info leak ;) |
| 15:21 |
appguru |
well, the info leak merely is a map |
| 15:21 |
Guest54 |
merely |
| 15:21 |
Guest54 |
it can betray who is where |
| 15:22 |
Guest54 |
and what areas were mapped |
| 15:22 |
Guest54 |
if you have the seed of the server you can figure out where people are |
| 15:22 |
Guest54 |
if they have natural terrain |
| 15:22 |
appguru |
it's not as bad as straight up coords which are leaked easily |
| 15:22 |
Guest54 |
oh yeah, fun times |
| 15:22 |
Guest54 |
particle spammers need to be sent to only people in range to prevent that |
| 15:22 |
appguru |
Guest54: well, maps don't need to be placed as entities, right? |
| 15:23 |
appguru |
most of the time they'll just be used by the player wielding them, right? |
| 15:23 |
Guest54 |
uh |
| 15:23 |
Guest54 |
they can be placed on the side of blocks |
| 15:23 |
Guest54 |
as an upright sprite |
| 15:23 |
appguru |
so you could simply send to that player |
| 15:23 |
Guest54 |
which is the main purpose actually |
| 15:23 |
appguru |
and only send to all players when it is placed |
| 15:24 |
Guest54 |
oh i see, but how would it work when someone drops the map and someone else gets it? |
| 15:24 |
MinetestBot |
[git] SmallJoker -> minetest/minetest: Particle spawner: Move definitions to source f8e0778 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/f8e0778fc9e402674b091fcf529d0295acd4ddd0 (2023-04-08T15:23:17Z) |
| 15:24 |
MinetestBot |
[git] SmallJoker -> minetest/minetest: Particle spawner: Fix missing parameters ba2fee0 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/ba2fee07518d9c6154799b61ba1b14a2cb43ace7 (2023-04-08T15:23:17Z) |
| 15:24 |
Guest54 |
regarding particle spammers, some time ago, some clown used the mcl2 particles that were created when running to detect players |
| 15:24 |
appguru |
Guest54: The map would send the media to the new wielder as soon as it is wielded. |
| 15:24 |
Guest54 |
and griefed them |
| 15:25 |
Guest54 |
appguru sounds like a good idea. does that approach work for all versions down to 5.3? |
| 15:25 |
appguru |
I don't think 5.3 allows selectively sending to players |
| 15:25 |
appguru |
Before the param table, you had to send to all players I think? |
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| 15:26 |
Guest54 |
appguru i think so. well then just send it to a single player if it is supported ig |
| 15:27 |
Guest54 |
some ubuntu LTS version is on minetest 5.4 and i don't want to cut them off |
| 15:27 |
Guest54 |
also some mineclone5 player went to great lengths to make it run on 5.3 |
| 15:27 |
Guest54 |
i don't even know why she did that |
| 15:27 |
Guest54 |
but she had a bunch of polyfills or so |
| 15:27 |
Guest54 |
(that was when 5.5 was out already) |
| 15:28 |
MinetestBot |
[git] sfan5 -> minetest/minetest: Disable ubuntu-18.04 CI workflows 7bfea9b https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/7bfea9b0fe811f0356d3a61fc2a1adb72db190b7 (2023-04-08T15:27:28Z) |
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mrkubax10 |
how can I define on_use for item while also preserving default behavior (i.e. mining for example)? |
| 15:53 |
Krock |
mrkubax10: you can't |
| 15:53 |
Krock |
use register_on_punchnode or dignode |
| 15:54 |
mrkubax10 |
alright |
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Guest54 |
mrkubax10 look into the autogroup mod of mcl2 to see what is done |
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MinetestBot |
[git] srifqi -> minetest/minetest: Translated using Weblate (Indonesian) 4083fcf https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/4083fcf93a6136de5a753b7eab5f7fac3a1f8937 (2023-04-08T15:37:30Z) |
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MinetestBot |
[git] BreadT -> minetest/minetest: Translated using Weblate (Japanese) 87b3e9c https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/87b3e9cc5f790c243897f4f5d15978c2177c41ba (2023-04-08T15:37:30Z) |
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MinetestBot |
[git] mnh48 -> minetest/minetest: Translated using Weblate (Malay) a3a4640 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/a3a4640257fed7f51f1320c3141ebef7553eeb94 (2023-04-08T15:37:30Z) |
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MinetestBot |
[git] mnh48 -> minetest/minetest: Translated using Weblate (Malay (Jawi)) aa28084 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/aa2808460487f972386d52c4e12cb3b4eb92e0d3 (2023-04-08T15:37:30Z) |
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MinetestBot |
[git] (16 newer commits not shown) |
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mrkubax10 |
Guest54: I will check, thanks |
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appguru |
Guest54: Could xmaps be leaking memory? lol |
| 16:11 |
appguru |
(It's minor, but you don't seem to be cleaning up in on_leaveplayer) |
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MinetestBot |
[git] Wuzzy2 -> minetest/minetest_game: Update locale files 34c1d32 https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/commit/34c1d3242d3f965d9044d0e2de07e8c6cb810f88 (2023-04-08T16:11:37Z) |
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MinetestBot |
[git] Wuzzy2 -> minetest/minetest_game: Update German translation 446e56a https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/commit/446e56a879df61f3825cd7723f85819eab368326 (2023-04-08T16:11:37Z) |
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MinetestBot |
[git] appgurueu -> minetest/minetest_game: Fix typo in german translation 4c6e199 https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/commit/4c6e19968ac846f4b935838e83ab38cc173c1e6f (2023-04-08T16:11:37Z) |
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MinetestBot |
[git] appgurueu -> minetest/minetest_game: Validate & sanitize formspec fields (#3022) 833ed77 https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/commit/833ed776204b194d96b50e400861dec07b5c16aa (2023-04-08T16:13:45Z) |
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appguru |
Guest54: btw another consideration is that a malicious or broken client could easily block usage of maps for everyone (by refusing to acknowledge that the media has been loaded) |
| 16:39 |
Guest54 |
appguru then what should be done? |
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sfan5 |
apparently /usr/bin/file knows how to identify Minetest schematics, cool |
| 16:49 |
appguru |
Guest54: I don't know. Timeout? |
| 16:50 |
Guest54 |
appguru sounds good |
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appguru |
argh my Thunderbird is drunk again |
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muurkha |
sfan5: you know you've made it in life when /etc/magic lists your file type |
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sfan5 |
!op |
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MinetestBot |
[git] sfan5 -> minetest/minetest: Bump version to 5.7.0 1b95998 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/1b95998d11fb0d51fbfeedc56de4ca2191ad3f7a (2023-04-08T16:04:52Z) |
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MinetestBot |
[git] sfan5 -> minetest/minetest: Continue with 5.8.0-dev c2a9ac2 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/c2a9ac24ac2e74b111b4bbdf42ee3a62514bc7a2 (2023-04-08T16:05:03Z) |
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|
Topic for #minetest is now The official Minetest channel | Latest version: 5.7.0 (2023-04-08) | General, player and modding discussion is on-topic. If in doubt, post here | Responses may take a while, be patient | Rules: https://wiki.minetest.net/IRC#Rules | Development: #minetest-dev | Server list: https://minetest.net/servers | IRC logs: https://irc.minetest.net/minetest |
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sfan5 |
Minetest 5.7.0 has been released! read about the changes or grab it here: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=29356 |
| 18:03 |
Yad |
Ooh, that's big news! ^^ |
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MinetestBot |
[git] numberZero -> minetest/minetest: Remove fast faces (#13216) 35929d2 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/35929d27e3a93085c3a27180c1805711dcfe95d5 (2023-04-08T18:17:15Z) |
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MinetestBot |
[git] Desour -> minetest/minetest: Get rid of wgettext 67068cf https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/67068cfaf43ef95e526401d9f788790516b9f8ed (2023-04-08T18:17:50Z) |
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MinetestBot |
[git] sfan5 -> minetest/minetest: Move video_driver default selection to runtime c26e122 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/c26e122485a7180edf434c0c1211713ff377d6d7 (2023-04-08T18:19:35Z) |
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MinetestBot |
[git] sfan5 -> minetest/minetest: Drop ENABLE_GLES option 9d736e8 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/9d736e8b8baeeacad9cfa94edd18adfcaf000029 (2023-04-08T18:19:35Z) |
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independent56 |
build fails with XInput not found |
| 18:24 |
independent56 |
Despite the fact i don't use xbox |
| 18:25 |
Desour |
are you building with correct irrlichtmt? |
| 18:25 |
Desour |
(also, does xbox use X11?) |
| 18:25 |
rubenwardy |
xinput is DirectX's input API |
| 18:26 |
rubenwardy |
well not sure about directx, I assume that's where the x comes from, it's a Windows input API though |
| 18:26 |
sfan5 |
xinput is a thing with X11 |
| 18:27 |
sfan5 |
install libxi-dev |
| 18:27 |
Desour |
is it the same xinput though? |
| 18:27 |
rubenwardy |
oh that's dumb, there's also X Input |
| 18:28 |
independent56 |
i dunno |
| 18:28 |
independent56 |
i'm getting the minetest/irrilichtmt thing |
| 18:29 |
independent56 |
I installed it and no longer get the error |
| 18:32 |
independent56 |
ChatGPT said it was for xbox |
| 18:32 |
rubenwardy |
maybe don't trust chatgpt |
| 18:33 |
independent56 |
yeah |
| 18:33 |
independent56 |
It gets you half the way there and drops you off a cliff |
| 18:35 |
Guest54 |
lol |
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independent56 |
Ithink i'm getting there |
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independent56 |
Minetest 7 here we come |
| 18:42 |
independent56 |
*5.7 |
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Guest54 |
so one of the recent commit seems to have messed with rendering, there are now way more triangles. you can see this clearly in wireframe view. can someone explain to me why this is a good thing? |
| 18:59 |
Guest54 |
(i am assuming it was deliberate) |
| 19:01 |
Desour |
fast faces was removed. the number of triangles is not what makes minetest rendering slow |
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Guest54 |
Desour so was fast faces slow lol? |
| 19:03 |
Guest54 |
i thought the most efficient way to render stuff was to combine faces, so i wonder why this was a) introduced b) removed |
| 19:05 |
Desour |
it was not slow, but not significantly faster either |
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Guest54 |
was the PR tested on a lower-spec machine? |
| 19:06 |
Desour |
idk |
| 19:06 |
Guest54 |
i mean spamming a drawcall for each particle is “not slow” on whatever gaming machine devs have |
| 19:06 |
Guest54 |
but you can lag out machines ppl use for minetest by just spamming particles, if they are too low-spec |
| 19:07 |
Guest54 |
(the solution is to batch drawcalls or use the irrlicht particle system, but the latter was removed from irrlichtmt and i don't know how to do the former) |
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rubenwardy |
spamming a drawcall is slow especially on gaming machines |
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rubenwardy |
fast faces doesn't effect the number of drawcalls - it's the same with or without |
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rubenwardy |
it only effects mesh sizes and time to make the mesh |
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Guest54 |
yeah i was just wondering what it affects |
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Guest54 |
like there must be a reason it was added and i wonder why |
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Guest54 |
celeron55_ it seems you added fastfaces in the beginning, what is the significance of more or less triangles? |
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rubenwardy |
that would have been done in 2011 ish when celeron55 was using an ancient laptop |
| 19:20 |
rubenwardy |
the technique was probably effective for devices from early 2000 which we no longer support |
| 19:20 |
rubenwardy |
*2000s |
| 19:21 |
Guest54 |
no longer support? |
| 19:21 |
Guest54 |
minetest so far ran fine on anything that supports at least opengl 1.4 (even without shaders) and GL extensions from 2003 forwards |
| 19:22 |
Guest54 |
the loading bar looks weird on anything pre-2003 kinda |
| 19:22 |
Guest54 |
well, i'll test it on my personal machine ig |
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Guest54 |
(am not on it rn) |
| 19:34 |
Guest54 |
rubenwardy well i just tested it on a very fast machine i have access to and removing fast faces is definitely an fps drop, it's just not noticeable if your fps is limited anyway. |
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Guest54 |
you can test that yourself as well, just look at flat ground in devtest |
| 19:36 |
Guest54 |
since there exist machines that get like 20 to 25fps (which is playable) with minetest, i have no good hopes for them |
| 19:36 |
Desour |
"just tested on a very fast machine" "fps is limited anyway" "look at flat ground in devtest" these don't fit together |
| 19:37 |
Guest54 |
Desour what do you mean? |
| 19:37 |
Desour |
by what means is that machine fast? |
| 19:38 |
Guest54 |
i limited fps to 600 instead of 60 and the machine is a thinkpad p14s, which is about the fastest machine i have access to (but do not own) |
| 19:39 |
Guest54 |
VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Cezanne (rev d1) (prog-if 00 [VGA controller]) |
| 19:40 |
Guest54 |
Desour i got a drawtime of 2 to 3ms looking at a flat plane with view range 300 with fast faces. i get 3 to 4ms looking at the same thing without fast faces. |
| 19:40 |
Desour |
ah, so you're complaining because you get 500 instead of 600 fps in a super simple scene? |
| 19:40 |
Guest54 |
well, what i am implying is that anything that got 25fps before will probably not be so lucky |
| 19:41 |
Desour |
no, you can't conclude that |
| 19:41 |
Guest54 |
then i should test it |
| 19:41 |
Desour |
it's not like new hardware just makes everthing by a factor faster :P |
| 19:41 |
Guest54 |
also it was about “the technique was probably effective for devices from early 2000 which we no longer support” |
| 19:41 |
Guest54 |
i mean, it definitely affects newer devices |
| 19:42 |
Guest54 |
just not in a way anyone cares |
| 19:42 |
Guest54 |
unless you up the triangle count a ton lol |
| 19:42 |
rubenwardy |
this was tested on older devices, according to the PR |
| 19:43 |
Guest54 |
well, i will test it myself |
| 19:43 |
Guest54 |
later |
| 19:43 |
Guest54 |
i just don't understand why it was done in the first place |
| 19:43 |
Guest54 |
if it is so unproblematic to remove it |
| 20:16 |
Guest54 |
rubenwardy you might want to make an announcement post here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Minetest/ |
| 20:16 |
rubenwardy |
waiting for blog post |
| 20:17 |
Guest54 |
oh, sorry then! |
| 21:03 |
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| 22:34 |
Desour |
huh, github look so ... small |
| 22:34 |
Guest54 |
are you tripping or what |
| 22:35 |
Guest54 |
DPI adjustment? |
| 22:35 |
Guest54 |
that being said, i have Xft.dpi: 284 for one high res display (3840x2160) and minetest thinks it's still 72 lol |
| 22:36 |
Desour |
I didn't change my setup |
| 22:36 |
Guest54 |
maybe accidental zoom? |
| 22:36 |
Guest54 |
ctrl + 0 |
| 22:36 |
Guest54 |
resets zoom |
| 22:36 |
Guest54 |
in browsers |
| 22:37 |
Guest54 |
uh, so i now set screen_dpi = 284 in minetest.conf and i don't think it did anything? |
| 22:38 |
Guest54 |
ok, gui_scaling = 2.5 does the trick |
| 22:38 |
Guest54 |
but i don't get it, what's the DPI value for then |
| 22:39 |
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| 22:39 |
Desour |
screen_dpi is only used as fallback. use dpi_scaling (or whatever it's called) |
| 22:40 |
Guest54 |
well, every other app i tried does the correct thing from the Xft.dpi setting, maybe it just needs to be read |
| 22:40 |
Guest54 |
btw is the screen size stuff going to clash badly with client size gui scaling and HUD scaling? |
| 22:41 |
Guest54 |
like if i have a large screen and have hud_scaling set to 2.5, are mods going to get the info that they should send me giant formspecs, or is that taken into account? |
| 22:42 |
Desour |
mods can't directly access those settings. they're just used for transforming formpsec coordinates and similar to pixels |
| 22:43 |
Guest54 |
the question is if the thing where the mod can know your screen size is going to show your real screensize |
| 22:43 |
Guest54 |
or if it's clever like CSS pixels |
| 22:43 |
Guest54 |
where a “pixel” is basically some ideal thing at arms length |
| 22:43 |
Guest54 |
not a physical pixel |
| 22:44 |
Desour |
oh, you mean that newly added screensize API. idk how that works |
| 22:44 |
Guest54 |
1 px = 1/96th of 1 CSS inch |
| 22:44 |
Guest54 |
Desour well if it works like i think it works it may clash, but i may be a bit of a dummy |
| 22:50 |
rubenwardy |
Guest54: DPI is basically meaningless, even the OS will lie about it |
| 22:51 |
Guest54 |
rubenwardy well every application except some games seem to respect xft.dpi for text rendering, at least under linux |
| 22:52 |
Guest54 |
rubenwardy anyways, since you did the feature where you can know the window size, what happens with people who have hud scaling on for obv reasons, will that clash with the server knowing their window size? |
| 22:52 |
Guest54 |
i mean i *think* it is meant for scaling up formspecs server-side right? |
| 22:52 |
rubenwardy |
the server is also sent the hud_scaling * dpi / 96 |
| 22:52 |
rubenwardy |
which is the same multiplier used inside the engine |
| 22:53 |
Guest54 |
which would mean the value would need to be adjusted for hud_scaling if used for hud scaling |
| 22:53 |
Guest54 |
good |
| 22:53 |
Guest54 |
thanks! |
| 22:53 |
rubenwardy |
gui_scaling is used for formspecs |
| 22:53 |
Guest54 |
well i have both |
| 22:53 |
Guest54 |
gui_scaling works for the main menu |
| 22:53 |
Guest54 |
hud_scaling works for, well, hud elements |
| 22:53 |
Guest54 |
xmaps map for example |
| 22:54 |
Guest54 |
i wonder if i should make the xmap scale based on this |
| 22:54 |
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| 22:54 |
Guest54 |
hey lizzy |
| 23:08 |
muurkha |
yeah, a CSS px is a unit of angle |
| 23:23 |
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