| Time |
Nick |
Message |
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| 04:47 |
lissobone |
Question two. |
| 04:48 |
lissobone |
How do I deal with "invalid minetest.after invocation"? |
| 04:48 |
lissobone |
It occurs when the function passed as an argunent is declared before the invocation. |
| 04:48 |
lissobone |
Argument*. |
| 04:51 |
lissobone |
What is math.huge? |
| 04:51 |
lissobone |
Is it something actually huge? |
| 04:54 |
lissobone |
I somehow fixed it. Seems that it has something to do with scope. |
| 05:00 |
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| 05:22 |
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| 05:51 |
lissobone |
I have released the first version. |
| 07:02 |
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| 09:08 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> lissobone: There are no function declarations in Lua. A declared but uninitialized variable will be nil. Thus, when you do local var; minetest.after(42, var); var = function() ... end, you're passing nil rather than the function to minetest.after. You have to initialize the variable with the function as a value before you can use it. |
| 09:09 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> math.huge is Lua's way of expressing the special number (double) value +Inf, a value that results e.g. from 42/0 (division of a positive number by zero) as zero is assumed to be an infinitesimally small number in this case. +Inf compares greater than every other number value except for itself (it compares equal to itself) and "not a number" (NaN). |
| 09:22 |
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| 09:37 |
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| 09:43 |
lissobone |
Well, I did initialize it. |
| 09:43 |
lissobone |
I fixed it, though. |
| 09:43 |
lissobone |
I declared a local table, and declared my functions inside that table. |
| 10:12 |
lissobone |
I mean, I initialized the value. |
| 10:13 |
lissobone |
The functions were initialized in the very beginning. |
| 10:15 |
lissobone |
There were 2 funcitons, and in each one there was a minetest.after, which pointed at a different funciton. |
| 10:15 |
lissobone |
Basically, f1 -> f2, f2 -> f1. |
| 10:29 |
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| 11:00 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> so local function f1() minetest.after(42, f2) end; local function f2() minetest.after(33, f1) end? This won't work because at the time f1 is declared, the local variable f2 is not in scope; thus, the "global" variable f1 is accessed instead. To make mutual recursion work, either use (1) an API table, of which the implicit API table _G is a special case, or (2) more efficient and explicit "late binding": Use a forward declaration local f2; |
| 11:00 |
MTDiscord |
local function f1() minetest.after(42, f2) end; function f2() minetest.after(33, f1) end. Note that the definition of f2 now doeesn't use the local keyword anymore, since f2 has already been declared as local. |
| 11:04 |
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| 11:10 |
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| 11:13 |
kilbith |
I'd like to inform you that the i3 mod is threatened with delisting and may no longer exist on ContentDB. it could sign the death warrant of this project. |
| 11:13 |
kilbith |
https://content.minetest.net/threads/4118/ |
| 11:14 |
lissobone |
WHAT |
| 11:14 |
lissobone |
The page cannot be displayed. |
| 11:15 |
kilbith |
https://i.imgur.com/4nDL61G.png |
| 11:15 |
|
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| 11:16 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> for fuck's sake kilbith |
| 11:19 |
lissobone |
I've got an insane idea. |
| 11:19 |
lissobone |
Hear me out |
| 11:20 |
sfan5 |
well, what is the official CDB policy for addressing problematic licensing? |
| 11:20 |
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| 11:21 |
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| 11:23 |
lissobone |
OK, I have read the unified inventory license from that screenshot. |
| 11:23 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> sfan5: generally we take down packages with copyrighted content immediately when we are made aware of it. however, in the case of i3 we decided to reach out privately to resolve it without having to take down the package |
| 11:24 |
lissobone |
What is the GNU Library GPL? Didn't GNU choose a different name for it (Lesser GPL)? |
| 11:24 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> library GPL is the older license for it I think? |
| 11:24 |
lissobone |
So, it's LGPL? |
| 11:24 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> license, I mean name |
| 11:24 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> yeah |
| 11:25 |
lissobone |
The older name? I recall something from gnu.org about the history of LGPL. |
| 11:25 |
kilbith |
let's see what they do for Unified Inventory |
| 11:25 |
lissobone |
It mentioned that they had to rename the license, since "Library" would imply that it's supposed to be applied to libraries. |
| 11:26 |
kilbith |
the community will be well aware of everything going on there |
| 11:26 |
lissobone |
Alright, it's LGPL. So, what's the issue? Were the sounds redistributed under a permissive license? |
| 11:26 |
kilbith |
no, it's not |
| 11:27 |
lissobone |
Alright. |
| 11:27 |
lissobone |
I'm (quite) confused, as usual. |
| 11:29 |
lissobone |
Oh, so there's no license whatsoever? |
| 11:30 |
kilbith |
I have to highlight a bit of context |
| 11:31 |
lissobone |
Yea? |
| 11:31 |
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| 11:31 |
kilbith |
3 days ago, luk3yx (contributor of Unified Inventory) asked me out on IRC publicly about licensing: https://irc.minetest.net/minetest/2023-01-07#i_6045486 |
| 11:32 |
kilbith |
it comes with no surprise that today I am pilloried on CDB |
| 11:32 |
kilbith |
it's a strategic move from the Unified Inventory crew |
| 11:32 |
lissobone |
I see my messages there! |
| 11:32 |
lissobone |
Greetings. |
| 11:32 |
lissobone |
My favorite word. |
| 11:32 |
lissobone |
And also your messages. |
| 11:33 |
lissobone |
Regarding the i3_cannot.ogg sound effect. |
| 11:34 |
lissobone |
I don't see any other messages related to you or i3, though. |
| 11:42 |
|
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| 11:45 |
sfan5 |
ROllerozxa: this is just an informal standard and not a written policy is it? |
| 11:52 |
rubenwardy |
Here's my response. i3 currently has Factorio sounds and ContentDB is legally required to remove access to copyright infringing packages when we are made aware: https://rwdy.uk/jElJL.png |
| 11:54 |
rubenwardy |
sfan5: slightly outdated as it doesn't mention the notice period but https://content.minetest.net/help/copyright/#what-does-contentdb-do |
| 11:55 |
kilbith |
hope Unified Inventory is going to the exact same process |
| 11:55 |
|
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| 11:55 |
kilbith |
2 days deadline and all |
| 11:56 |
kilbith |
otherwise this will badly reflect onto CDB |
| 11:58 |
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| 12:01 |
kilbith |
I should again add a bit of anecdotical context: luk3yx is a permanent worker of MultiCraft since years, they always have been in rivalry with me to get the more hours of work |
| 12:03 |
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| 12:04 |
sfan5 |
rubenwardy: look good |
| 12:06 |
sfan5 |
in any case the potential conflict of interest isn't more than an interesting factoid, given that the copyright issue is genuine |
| 12:07 |
kilbith |
I recognize the copyright issue and I won't be lying about it |
| 12:07 |
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| 12:08 |
kilbith |
I stole some assets and I don't know how to properly fix that in about 2 days |
| 12:08 |
kilbith |
given that I have a job |
| 12:14 |
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| 12:25 |
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| 12:32 |
kilbith |
I could ask the explicit permission from the Factorio team to use their sounds, though |
| 12:32 |
rubenwardy |
see https://content.minetest.net/help/copyright/#i-have-permission-from-the-author for that |
| 12:32 |
kilbith |
it's that, or nothing, there'll be no compromise with lower quality sounds |
| 12:35 |
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| 12:35 |
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| 12:43 |
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| 12:46 |
kilbith |
good point: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=420434#p420434 |
| 12:48 |
kilbith |
there will be no double standards |
| 12:51 |
celeron55 |
it seems quite bichy to complain about your project getting threats inside the community when you (with others) are putting the entire MT content ecosystem in risk of threats from actual lawyers from actual companies |
| 12:51 |
kilbith |
the Minecraft ecosystem has been long well living with stolen assets |
| 12:52 |
celeron55 |
just replace the sounds with bad sounds. if you don't have time, someone will come up with better ones in due time and contribute them |
| 12:53 |
celeron55 |
the MC ecosystem is not used, and is not usable by organizations such as schools, because of things like that. The MT ecosystem is, because it takes copyright seriously |
| 12:54 |
celeron55 |
taking laws seriously gives value to the project |
| 12:54 |
kilbith |
why did RBA never got a threat then, in years |
| 12:54 |
rubenwardy |
also, hosts like Steam Workshop and Nexus mods will be following copyright law as well, they just don't require open licenses |
| 12:54 |
kilbith |
explain me |
| 12:55 |
kilbith |
s/got/get |
| 12:55 |
celeron55 |
well, obviously things go unnoticed until somebody notices |
| 12:58 |
celeron55 |
i'll rephrase this: MT itself can exist with stolen assets, but the userbase of MT and the distribution channels will be limited if it uses stolen assets. it's the difference between a grey area hobby project vs. a real project anyone and any organization can use and distribute. in this sense, MT's goal is to be a real project |
| 12:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Bla> sorry to interrupt, thought time could be better spend looking for replacements sounds killbith just a few suggestions i3_click.ogg https://freesound.org/people/Ranner/sounds/487452/ i3_cannot.ogg https://freesound.org/people/unfa/sounds/565133/ i3_craft.ogg https://freesound.org/people/cookies+policy/sounds/556630/ i3_tab.ogg https://freesound.org/people/moogy73/sounds/425728/ |
| 13:00 |
celeron55 |
and, of course it cannot be proven MT and its ecosystem doesn't use stolen assets. However we can prove we react according to the law when stolen assets are found, and that will be enough for organizations with lawyers to accept MT |
| 13:01 |
lissobone |
Permanent worker of MultiCraft? |
| 13:02 |
lissobone |
Sounds tragic. |
| 13:02 |
kilbith |
no sorry I don't want your shitty assets from broken, undertalented artists |
| 13:02 |
kilbith |
I have higher standards than that |
| 13:02 |
lissobone |
Also, maybe ask me to make sounds? |
| 13:02 |
lissobone |
I've got some experience with making sound effects for my mods. |
| 13:04 |
celeron55 |
i'd say go ahead and do it, those replcament sounds will be useful for many |
| 13:04 |
celeron55 |
replacement* |
| 13:04 |
celeron55 |
i don't understand why kilbith is so proud about his stolen assets |
| 13:04 |
kilbith |
all of you here wouldn't be able to make it something on-par with what a professional team of artists from a commercial game can do |
| 13:05 |
celeron55 |
it's like i stole a ferrari and drove around it with a big grin, thinking I'm the greatest |
| 13:05 |
celeron55 |
in it* |
| 13:05 |
MTDiscord |
<Bla> killbith: nice way to say ty to someone that tried to help but well go on keep whining and waste time |
| 13:06 |
lissobone |
I bombed an orphanage and walked away with a sad grin, thinking I didn't do well enough. |
| 13:06 |
lissobone |
I can make those sounds right now, I just need to know what they have to be like. |
| 13:07 |
celeron55 |
i guess just download i3 and check the existing sounds and their purpose |
| 13:08 |
lissobone |
Ok. |
| 13:08 |
lissobone |
Hold up. |
| 13:09 |
lissobone |
[In order to continue, enter] TOMATO JUICE. |
| 13:09 |
celeron55 |
https://github.com/minetest-mods/i3/tree/main/sounds |
| 13:09 |
celeron55 |
do we have the definitive list of stolen sounds, as not all of those are? |
| 13:10 |
lissobone |
Viewing... |
| 13:10 |
rubenwardy |
i3_cannot.ogg, i3_click.ogg, i3_craft.ogg, i3_tab.ogg |
| 13:10 |
lissobone |
This doesn't look like a lot of sounds. |
| 13:11 |
lissobone |
Ok, analyzing those... |
| 13:12 |
celeron55 |
if kilbith is dropping i3 just because of 4 sounds, that sounds like he was looking for a reason to drop it anyway |
| 13:13 |
kilbith |
I don't have any intent to "drop" it, CDB will sentence it |
| 13:13 |
celeron55 |
is multicraft also using those sounds? |
| 13:14 |
lissobone |
So, shall I just remake those sounds and release the new ones under a free license like CC-BY-SA 4.0 or CC0? |
| 13:15 |
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| 13:15 |
celeron55 |
yes. i don't think there's much more you can do |
| 13:16 |
celeron55 |
then you'll have to hope having the sounds floating around will help solve the issue in one way or another |
| 13:16 |
lissobone |
Well, I can also commit extra [Crimes] [Completely free of chrage!]. |
| 13:18 |
rubenwardy |
you could make a release without the sounds and then add sounds later when you have more time |
| 13:22 |
kilbith |
I could also say that celeron55 has a personal issue with me anyway |
| 13:24 |
sfan5 |
you could say a lot more, none of which is relevant to the issue at hand |
| 13:26 |
lissobone |
Personal issue? |
| 13:27 |
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| 13:28 |
lissobone |
Once I'm finished with the sounds, I'll host them on my web server (you'll get the link). |
| 13:28 |
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| 13:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Note that if anyone else has any other non-foss-pedigree assets out there, it may take a while, but it's only a matter of time before someone notices, reports it, and then CDB is forced to take this kind of action. |
| 13:36 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It's best to get ahead of this while you have the luxury of taking the time to do it right. |
| 13:37 |
kilbith |
to put things in perspective so everybody realize: i3 gets circa. 10K downloads per month; it is in the same order of magnitude than the Minetest client itself. |
| 13:37 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Yes, that makes this a pretty serious case of infringement. |
| 13:55 |
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| 14:00 |
FavoritoHJS |
managed to id the following sounds: |
| 14:00 |
FavoritoHJS |
dingdong.ogg: Metadata says it's from Sony Sound Forge 8.0. I can only hope the sound licensing allows relicensing... |
| 14:00 |
FavoritoHJS |
teleport.ogg: Metadata says it's from FL Studio 9.0. I can only hope the sound licensing allows relicensing... |
| 14:00 |
FavoritoHJS |
so rest in peace technic craftguide i guess |
| 14:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If those metadata IDs are identifying sound libraries/collections, then yes, it may indicate that they're (C) by somebody and a license from them that allows this use is required. If those are tools/editors, then (C) does not apply merely from using a tool, it's still the original work of the person operating the tool, unless the tool is mixing in something copyrightable as part of the process. |
| 14:03 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If those tools have some kind of "everything you make with this tool is owned by us" kind of EULA thing, then that may be enough that we have to treat it as valid and reject it from CDB anyway ... but I'd really hope somebody would fight that in court and invalidate it because that sounds like some real bullshit. |
| 14:04 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Like on par with dentists making patients sign forms that preemptively reassign copyright to all reviews to the dentist so that they can DMCA takedown the negative reviews. |
| 14:05 |
kilbith |
I've reported the technic mod, it also doesn't have licenses for (most of) their sounds |
| 14:05 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Yep, let the Audit Wars continue, I guess 🤷 |
| 14:06 |
lissobone |
Why not just tell the authors to either license their sounds or find free ones instead of reporting? |
| 14:06 |
kilbith |
the community will be able to observe if there will be a double-standard, or not. |
| 14:06 |
kilbith |
I swear that |
| 14:07 |
FavoritoHJS |
oh you meant literally the report button |
| 14:07 |
FavoritoHJS |
the one that allows only the staff to see the report |
| 14:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It's all about the same to us in CDB. Once we become aware there's a problem we're basically required to act. It doesn't matter very much how it reaches us. If you feel like cutting the author some slack, you can contact them privately outside CDB, but you have no obligation to, and it'd still be your responsibility to report it eventually if that author ghosted you anyway. |
| 14:08 |
kilbith |
https://content.minetest.net/threads/4123/ |
| 14:09 |
FavoritoHJS |
with these mods i'm unsure how it will be done, especially technic considering the author is kinda dead |
| 14:09 |
lissobone |
11 seconds ago? |
| 14:09 |
FavoritoHJS |
maybe a redirect to technic-plus? |
| 14:09 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> technic is under minetest-mods iirc, it's still maintained |
| 14:09 |
rubenwardy |
the technic author is very much dead |
| 14:10 |
lissobone |
In what sense dead? |
| 14:10 |
rubenwardy |
he died in 2016 |
| 14:10 |
lissobone |
Like, on CWHAT |
| 14:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Niklp> mt-mods' technic is maintained |
| 14:10 |
lissobone |
Wait, I recall something. |
| 14:10 |
lissobone |
Hold up. |
| 14:11 |
FavoritoHJS |
oh, i'd have sworn the mod hasn't been maintaned since her death but it's mt-mods propery now |
| 14:11 |
FavoritoHJS |
despite the author being rba and not mt-mods... |
| 14:11 |
lissobone |
Propery? |
| 14:11 |
rubenwardy |
his, and RealBadAngel |
| 14:11 |
lissobone |
It's free software. |
| 14:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Niklp> note: minetest-mods and mt-mods isn't the same |
| 14:11 |
lissobone |
Everyone is an owner of thier own copy. |
| 14:12 |
rubenwardy |
also, worth noting there's a difference between unclear copyright and copyright infringement - unclear copyright is against CDB's rules but not necessarily against copyright law |
| 14:12 |
kilbith |
missing license means /de facto/ proprietary |
| 14:13 |
kilbith |
and here's starts the double-standard I guess? |
| 14:13 |
rubenwardy |
proprietary isn't illegal - but is against CDB's rules |
| 14:13 |
FavoritoHJS |
but what if it originally had a license but the license got lost along the way... |
| 14:14 |
rubenwardy |
Anyway, I have contacted UI's maintainer and will contact Technic's as soon as I work out who that is |
| 14:14 |
rubenwardy |
rather not need an ouija board |
| 14:14 |
rubenwardy |
from the commit log, appears to be Krock |
| 14:15 |
kilbith |
so to sum it all: I /demand/ that Unified Inventory (+ all games/mods packaging it) and Technic (+ all games packaging) go to the same audit than i3. |
| 14:15 |
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| 14:15 |
kilbith |
immediately and with the same deadline. |
| 14:15 |
ROllerozxa |
kilbith: and that is what's happening, right now |
| 14:15 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Dunno who you're demanding it of, but if you want to make sure it happens, do it yourself. |
| 14:15 |
kilbith |
thanks |
| 14:15 |
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| 14:15 |
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| 14:15 |
FavoritoHJS |
guess you'll have to contact both mt-mods and minetest-mods since they both have a technic thing |
| 14:16 |
FavoritoHJS |
the official technic mod is by minetest-mods though |
| 14:16 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Anyone can find misused or unlicensed assets, code, whatever, and report them. |
| 14:16 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I dunno how various people feel about this, and I understand there's some pain/annoyance at least, but in the long run, I think the cleansing fire of a license audit is something to be welcomed. |
| 14:17 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The work of people who care about the quality of the work they do, including licensing, is devalued by other people getting away with corner cutting. |
| 14:18 |
FavoritoHJS |
also is it just me or is kb's behaviour kinda odd? like he immediately assumed that we're treating him differently when it more than likely was just a delay |
| 14:20 |
kilbith |
I've a lot of people who want to put a spoke in my wheels, out of jealousy |
| 14:20 |
lissobone |
Stalin moment. |
| 14:20 |
ROllerozxa |
jealousy? |
| 14:20 |
|
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| 14:21 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Odd is not how I would describe it. Actually, the whole "I'm being singled out" response has become the de facto standard for suddenly finding out that the laws still apply to you, no matter how many downloads you have. |
| 14:21 |
GNUHacker |
how can I edit my world_dir/world.sqlite in my remote server via ssh? |
| 14:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> sqlite3 command line tool? |
| 14:22 |
ROllerozxa |
GNUHacker: sqlite CLI? |
| 14:22 |
rubenwardy |
If you meant map.sqlite, then the easiest way is by running a minetest server |
| 14:22 |
rubenwardy |
If you meant world.mt then nano or vim |
| 14:22 |
Desour |
if all you want to do is edit the file, `$ echo cat > world_dir/world.sqlite` does also work |
| 14:22 |
lissobone |
GNUHacker: you can edit your files via SSH the same way you would do so right at your computer through the terminal. |
| 14:24 |
lissobone |
Ok, I have finished the click sound effect. |
| 14:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Unless "edit" means "delete specific mapblocks" you're probably not going to have a good time doing this, because MT's map files are largely opaquely encoded to somebody using generic database tools. |
| 14:24 |
lissobone |
Hope it fits with the overall theme. |
| 14:24 |
FavoritoHJS |
hmm, is there an mcedit-like editor for mt worlds? |
| 14:24 |
lissobone |
There are editors for sqlite3, I think. |
| 14:25 |
lissobone |
Python sqlite3 module? |
| 14:25 |
ROllerozxa |
yeah in a sqlite editor all the map will look like are blobs and indexed mapblock positions |
| 14:25 |
lissobone |
Might be useful. |
| 14:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The most popular editor I know of for MT worlds is MT. |
| 14:26 |
lissobone |
But he wants to edit them via SSH. |
| 14:26 |
lissobone |
Maybe run a graphical server via ssh? |
| 14:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> In theory you can decode the map format (it's documented) and manually hack on it, but that's probably a lot of programming work. |
| 14:26 |
MinetestBot |
[git] TurkeyMcMac -> minetest/minetest: Error when string.split is given empty separator (#13132) ab1fe80 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/ab1fe80150a8031fb702b9ff776db2db4dea89a4 (2023-01-10T14:25:48Z) |
| 14:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Your best bet is to just transfer the map over ssh, run MT with a possibly modified version of the game/mods (e.g. disabling ABMs, timers, and other things that would make unrelated changes while you're editing), make your changes in-game, then transfer the map back. |
| 14:27 |
Desour |
you can also start a minetest server and then connect to it from your local pc |
| 14:28 |
ROllerozxa |
mount the server with SSHFS and run a server locally using the remote files 🙃 |
| 14:29 |
lissobone |
Edit the server in binary form remotely using GNU Emacs, since it supports editing remote files. |
| 14:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I added a /stasis command/feature to NodeCore that basically disables every "world evolving on its own over time" type of process except for liquid transform. It turned out that there were a handful of types of hooks I needed to do this in (globalsteps, ABMs, LBMs, entity on_step, etc). In principle that kind of thing could be done to other games as well, using a code editor to look for patterns (I don't think it would be as easy to |
| 14:29 |
MTDiscord |
encapsulate it into a mod but MAYBE). That would allow you to just slap in WorldEdit and then edit in peace in-engine. |
| 14:29 |
lissobone |
Or run minetest in Emacs. |
| 14:30 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Roller: I was on the cusp of suggesting SSHFS, but really "run the MT server over there" is still a better option. We don't know how bad the performance OR safety impacts would be of SSHFS on sqlite or MT. |
| 14:30 |
Desour |
lissobone: just out of interest (I've never attempted to create sound effects), what tools are you using to create your sound effects / what is your workflow, is it easy? |
| 14:32 |
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| 14:32 |
sfan5 |
somewhat related cool thing https://sfxr.me/ |
| 14:33 |
lissobone |
My workflow: assemble tomato juice using tomato paste and fresh mountain water; start up my computer (it is usually already running, since I never turn it off); think of a sound effect; record audio of some household good; edit the sound it produces; the sound effect is ready. |
| 14:33 |
lissobone |
Step 8: disassemble tomato juice. |
| 14:33 |
Desour |
xD |
| 14:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> disassemble tomato juice into constituent amino acids using digestive enzymes |
| 14:33 |
lissobone |
I don't usually edit the effects heavily, just come cropping and noise reduction. |
| 14:34 |
lissobone |
I use ffmpeg for editing. |
| 14:34 |
FavoritoHJS |
if in doubt, fm synthesis |
| 14:34 |
lissobone |
Hold up, my family needs to borrow my computer to watch a movie. |
| 14:35 |
Desour |
thx lissobone ^^ |
| 14:38 |
Desour |
sfan5: indeed cool |
| 14:38 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Personally, I'm a fan of foley art as a basis: a microphone and some objects you find around you. Sometimes heavy editing is needed to get the effect you're looking for, sometimes just a little cropping. |
| 14:39 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The whole PSG or FM thing would be cool if MT could adopt that as a standard ... the fact that it doesn't actually seems a bit weird, and is probably why a handful of sounds take up much more download space than a ton of textures. We use these tiny low-res textures but high-def sounds, and that seems unbalanced. |
| 14:40 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Turning a few bytes of FM synth instructions into megabytes of vorbis also seems pretty wasteful, but we would bikeshed eternally about adding an FM synth into MT. |
| 14:42 |
Desour |
FM synth would probably come with tracker music support, no? |
| 14:42 |
Desour |
(which is planned iirc) |
| 14:42 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> libopenmpt in minetest would be awesome |
| 14:42 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> there's an issue for it but it's kinda been hijacked by people who want MIDI support |
| 14:43 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Tracker is not exactly FM, but yeah, it's much closer. |
| 14:45 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Tracker is a bit more flexible, and a bit more costly, so it seems like a decent compromise. If we supported vorbis and MIDI then I'd think tracker would be a good thing to cover in the gap between. |
| 14:45 |
FavoritoHJS |
i think you could fake it right now with some sound shenanigans |
| 14:45 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I'm not super invested in one side of the fight or another, but having a non-why-the-hell-is-it-taking-so-long-to-download experience for games with music would be really nice. |
| 14:46 |
muurkha |
tracker music normally uses wavetable synthesis; I don't know if any trackers support FM |
| 14:46 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> well being able to send music as dynamic media without the client freezing would be a nice alternative to that |
| 14:46 |
FavoritoHJS |
simple sound for attack and decay, looping sound for sustain |
| 14:46 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> You can fake it, and I actually do in Klots right now. However, multiplayer puts a pretty tight upper bound on the tempo of music if you want to be able to avoid network timing jitter from ruining your music. |
| 14:46 |
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| 14:47 |
FavoritoHJS |
openmpt supports a limited subset of opl3 (only 2 channels) |
| 14:47 |
muurkha |
difficulty with tracker music is that you kind of have to build the sound in the tracker; you can't compress some arbitrary sound into tracker music |
| 14:47 |
muurkha |
something like Opus (successor to Vorbis) might be a better option for stuff like sound effects |
| 14:48 |
FavoritoHJS |
also might be Good Enough:tm: for music, I suspect 32k would be acceptable enough |
| 14:48 |
muurkha |
32 kilosamples per second? |
| 14:48 |
FavoritoHJS |
32 kbits |
| 14:48 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> MT can't do everything a tracker can do. You've basically only got like 2 or 3 effects in MT (New Note, Note Cut, and Note Fade). You also have to stream the music from the server, and there's no timing metadata, so notes are played on a "next client tick after the packets arrive" basis, which is probably unacceptable for a lot of different kinds of music. |
| 14:49 |
muurkha |
probably with Opus it would usually be plenty |
| 14:49 |
FavoritoHJS |
it won't sound too good but then again it's background music |
| 14:49 |
FavoritoHJS |
iirc opus is always 48khz unless specified otherwise |
| 14:49 |
muurkha |
you mean 48 kilosamples per second? |
| 14:49 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I'd love to see Opus added; I don't see the point in supporting Vorbis but not Opus. But it wouldn't really be sufficient for music. There just wasn't that much room to compress beyond Vorbis anyway, so we're talking like a 5% to 10% improvement at best anyway. |
| 14:49 |
muurkha |
Warr1024: if you have so few effects you'll have to write your own tracker |
| 14:49 |
FavoritoHJS |
this time yes |
| 14:49 |
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| 14:50 |
FavoritoHJS |
can clientside mods play sounds? if so, at least that would help minimize jitter issues |
| 14:50 |
FavoritoHJS |
but then if you have a low framerate there will be jitter anyways |
| 14:50 |
FavoritoHJS |
ahh, my kingdom for fixed tickrates |
| 14:50 |
Desour |
for opus (and also flac, heh) support we could maybe use libsndfile (depended by libopenmpt anyway) |
| 14:50 |
muurkha |
you can avoid jitter in the audio even with a low framerate (and doing so is important) |
| 14:50 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> CSMs have their own set of problems, and frankly the process needed to setup a CSM is probably bad enough that it's not worth it just for music... |
| 14:51 |
Guest6645 |
Hello, got a quick question (didn't found any anserw for this). Do I need ENABLE_GLES=ON and ENABLE_SOUND=ON flash when I build server? |
| 14:51 |
FavoritoHJS |
i don't think so if you want to only build a server |
| 14:51 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> _SOUND and _GLES won't matter for a server binary |
| 14:51 |
FavoritoHJS |
building a client without those flags will make it opengl only and disable sound |
| 14:53 |
Guest6645 |
thats I suspected, great thanks |
| 14:55 |
Guest6645 |
oh i forgot about somthing else, when I;m building server binary and run cmake i have this warrning |
| 14:55 |
Guest6645 |
CMake Warning: |
| 14:55 |
Guest6645 |
Manually-specified variables were not used by the project: |
| 14:55 |
Guest6645 |
IRRLICHT_INCLUDE_DIR |
| 14:55 |
Guest6645 |
cmake command looks like this: cmake . -DRUN_IN_PLACE=TRUE -DBUILD_SERVER=TRUE -DBUILD_CLIENT=FALSE -DIRRLICHT_INCLUDE_DIR=./lib/irrlichtmt/include -DENABLE_GLES=OFF -DENABLE_POSTGRESQL=OFF -DENABLE_REDIS=OFF -DENABLE_SOUND=OFF |
| 14:55 |
FavoritoHJS |
i imagine that's because irrlicht isn't included in a server binary |
| 14:56 |
FavoritoHJS |
that library is used for rendering, and since a server doesn't render |
| 14:56 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> Minetestserver only requires irrlichtmt headers |
| 14:56 |
Desour |
> IRRLICHT_INCLUDE_DIR - Directory that contains IrrCompileConfig.h (usable for server build only) |
| 14:56 |
Desour |
^ from README |
| 14:57 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> btw if you put irrlichtmt into lib/irrlichtmt like usual it will be able to automatically use the headers from there, just like with the client |
| 14:57 |
Guest6645 |
yea I've read README but I missunderstand it :/ |
| 14:58 |
Guest6645 |
I clone irrlichtmt in same folder where minetest is |
| 14:58 |
Desour |
(I don't understand it either, my msg was just to correct FavoritoHJS ) |
| 14:59 |
Guest6645 |
:( |
| 14:59 |
FavoritoHJS |
oh. I imagine that's to at least define noop functions |
| 14:59 |
Guest6645 |
well so this warrning is ok and I DIRRLICHT_INCLUDE_DIR=./lib/irrlichtmt/include is needed for bare metal server binary or not |
| 15:00 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Servers require IrrlichtMT as well, even though they don't render anything, because MT uses some of Irrlicht's data structures internally. |
| 15:03 |
Desour |
Guest6645: are you getting "Using user-provided IrrlichtMt at subdirectory 'lib/irrlichtmt" ? if so, and if I read the cmake correctly, then the include dir variable is ignored / not used because lib/irrlichtmt exists |
| 15:03 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> that sounds correct |
| 15:03 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> so basically, if you're able to build the server you shouldn't worry |
| 15:04 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> kilbith: Stop slandering Unified Inventory contributors including luk3yx just because you violated copyright. Trying to "blackmail" the CDB staff by reporting other mods or threatening to cease your contributions is also completely irrelevant to the issue at play; it doesn't affect the legal obligations in the slightest. The fact that luk3yx contributed to MultiCraft is just as irrelevant. |
| 15:04 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> If this will cause the most popular mod and the second most popular inventory mod to be taken down, so be it. |
| 15:05 |
Guest6645 |
Desour Im cloning repos from git README |
| 15:05 |
Guest6645 |
just copy paste so yea i have it in ~/minetest/lib/irrlichtmt |
| 15:06 |
Guest6645 |
i managed build server and created package everything works, I'm just curious if this warrning is something I need to worry about or mine cmake command looks ok |
| 15:06 |
Desour |
as roller said, if it builds, it's all fine I guess ^^ |
| 15:06 |
Guest6645 |
:D |
| 15:07 |
Desour |
you can probably just remove the -DIRRLICHT_INCLUDE_DIR=./lib/irrlichtmt/include to avoid the warning |
| 15:08 |
Guest6645 |
I see, ok thank you very much. |
| 15:08 |
Guest6645 |
(y) |
| 15:08 |
kilbith |
well fuck you luatic, I didn't ask for your opinion; don't assume malice when it's just making sure there's no double-standard and highlighing CoI is also an healthy thing |
| 15:09 |
kilbith |
now go do your school' homeworks |
| 15:09 |
kilbith |
and stop pissing me off for once |
| 15:17 |
kilbith |
there are two kinds of people: the ones who do things that benefit to a large amount of people, and the ones who only /comment/ what the formers do; you belong to the second category |
| 15:19 |
MTDiscord |
<Bla> thank you to the people keeping cdb running for everyone |
| 15:26 |
Desour |
ok, it's time for some pessimism. I've tried to use data from my yet most durable PR to extrapolate a realistic worst case scenario for my sound PR to be merged, assuming review time is directly proportional to added plus removed lines. it should be merged by may 2128 |
| 15:26 |
rubenwardy |
haha |
| 15:26 |
rubenwardy |
how are you estimating that? Number of lines? |
| 15:26 |
rubenwardy |
That sound PR is very appetising, just looks a bit filling |
| 15:27 |
Desour |
added removed and added lines |
| 15:28 |
Desour |
(to be fair, the PR I've based this on wasn't reviewable from the start, so maybe the merge will happen in this century) |
| 15:30 |
rubenwardy |
that would be ideal |
| 15:31 |
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| 15:31 |
Desour |
(anyway, don't feel too pressed by this to do a review soon. I currently don't have too much time to fix review issues anyway) |
| 15:49 |
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| 16:21 |
lissobone |
Greetings. |
| 16:57 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> kilbith: Two wrongs don't make a right. Other popular mods skimping on their licensing doesn't make it any more legal if you do it (and BTW I strongly suspect that the mods you are reporting might in fact even be using free sounds which were just not attributed properly, while you are clearly redistributing commercial sounds, possibly even knowing very well where they came from and that their redistribution is not permitted). BTW, please |
| 16:57 |
MTDiscord |
stop lashing out at everybody. |
| 16:58 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> lashing out at everybody seems to be his coping mechanism |
| 16:58 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> You're committing to the logical "taking it to the extremes" fallacy here. Replacing these sounds with lower quality free ones would hardly negatively affect the overall i3 user experience. |
| 17:06 |
lissobone |
Maybe stop attacking him? |
| 17:07 |
lissobone |
I'm already half-way on finishing the sounds. |
| 17:08 |
Warr1024 |
Maybe, yeah. Or maybe what comes around goes around, and when your response to getting called out on a mistake is to lash out at the people pointing it out, and trying to vilify the rest of the world, you bring this kind of thing on yourself. |
| 17:08 |
Warr1024 |
lissobone, we do appreciate that you're working to actually *fix the problem*, but note how the criticism is also not directed at you either. |
| 17:09 |
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| 17:09 |
Warr1024 |
i.e. as much as anybody wants to make this bug report into a personal vendetta, simply a bug report it will remain. |
| 17:10 |
lissobone |
I'm just worried that he's getting too much criticism. |
| 17:13 |
lissobone |
I have just disposed of chemical waste. |
| 17:22 |
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| 17:22 |
lissobone |
Greetings. |
| 17:22 |
Warr1024 |
tbh not all of the criticism is specifically about him or about this incident, but is also part of a general discussion about community standards. |
| 17:23 |
Warr1024 |
We are at this sort of weird intersection of a FOSS project that cares very much about legally-enforceable user freedom, and a game modding community that's also used to having to cut some legal corners and rely on forbearance of copyright holders, and that causes culture clashes. |
| 17:23 |
Warr1024 |
A lot of people come from like the MC modding community and their misunderstandings or disagreements about licensing aren't so much in the "how" of it but more fundamentally in the "why" of it. |
| 17:25 |
Warr1024 |
It can be a bit of a culture shock when you're used to dealing with licenses on a "well, it's not quite right, but it's not all that important anyway" kind of basis and then suddenly small licensing hiccups become absolute show-stoppers. |
| 17:25 |
Warr1024 |
You don't even need to be new to the community either; you just have to be new to having somebody actually file a report on something you did. |
| 17:29 |
Warr1024 |
If we had things like a legal team that could negotiate with rightsholders for takedown processes that didn't expose volunteers to liability, or if we had things like corporate shields that limited the liability of individual volunteer operators, then we might be able to be more like other modding communities where we wait until an actual C&D |
| 17:29 |
Warr1024 |
letter is sent by the rightsholder themselves or something, but as of right now, we don't even really have that option. |
| 17:35 |
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| 17:47 |
lissobone |
Question. |
| 17:48 |
lissobone |
Is it OK if it will say "error" with a robotic voice where the i3_cannot.ogg sound plays? |
| 17:48 |
lissobone |
Because I've got an unused effect from my mod that does this. |
| 17:49 |
lissobone |
kilbith: what are your thoughts? |
| 17:49 |
rubenwardy |
that will be really annoying, given it's a UI and not a robot |
| 17:49 |
rubenwardy |
you want a dull thud sound, that's common for errors |
| 17:49 |
lissobone |
Alright. |
| 17:53 |
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| 18:46 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Ah also kilbith: You seem to be thinking everyone is out to replace i3 with UI. This is not the case. i3 is much more popular than UI and for a reason - it simply offers a much better experience, which is why it is important that it is libre. |
| 18:49 |
kilbith |
lissobone: I'm not interested in your sounds, sorry |
| 18:50 |
kilbith |
asking out the Factorio team will be last and only bullet, and it fails, i3 will be taken down, doomed to be a souvenir |
| 18:50 |
kilbith |
+if |
| 18:50 |
FavoritoHJS |
(laughs in forks) |
| 18:51 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> don't worry, someone's gonna fork i3 into i5 |
| 18:51 |
kilbith |
i3 has been coded in such a way that it'll be hard to fork |
| 18:51 |
kilbith |
understanding the codebase by someone else is known to be a PITA |
| 18:52 |
kilbith |
it was created in such a way that I will remain the sole author and maintainer |
| 18:52 |
rubenwardy |
bad code then |
| 18:52 |
kilbith |
call it as you want |
| 18:52 |
muurkha |
so your intention is to deny users the freedom to copy and modify it, even though the license technically permits it? |
| 18:52 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> that's... an interesting strategy |
| 18:53 |
kilbith |
like I said, if I had to possibilty to distribute as closed source, I'd have done it |
| 18:54 |
FavoritoHJS |
did i expect anything else from the person who refused to merge xdecor free assets for so long it got forked? |
| 18:54 |
FavoritoHJS |
and when called out on it pulled out the nazi card? |
| 18:54 |
kilbith |
and put it under an ads webpage and make it a monthly salary out of it |
| 18:54 |
kilbith |
like Optifine does |
| 18:55 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> shudders ...optifine... |
| 18:55 |
kilbith |
yes, I'm tired of doing things for free |
| 18:56 |
muurkha |
oh, well, that makes sense |
| 18:56 |
muurkha |
maybe you should write your own game instead of freeloading off the work of sfan5 and celeron55 (and rubenwardy and VanessaE and...) |
| 18:57 |
muurkha |
because it sounds like you're working hard to not hold up your end of the bargain |
| 18:58 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> also I don't think i3's code is that bad. the preprocessing stuff might slow someone down if they're not familiar with it but it's far from obfuscated |
| 18:58 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> kilbith: if i3 gets delisted due to not replacing the sounds with libre ones, I will put up a libre fork; replacing 4 sounds does not require understanding the codebase |
| 18:58 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> that is also true, however |
| 18:58 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> said i3 fork could be as-is with fixed sounds and still be good |
| 18:58 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> and yes, in the long run maintenance would be required, but i3 is maintainable |
| 18:59 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> (it is nothing compared to kimaprcode) |
| 18:59 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> good fucking god kimaprcode |
| 18:59 |
kilbith |
if anyone tries to fork it and put it on CDB, I've got other levers to take them down. |
| 18:59 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> now that's obfuscated |
| 18:59 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> ("nothing" as in very readable) |
| 19:00 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> are you... what |
| 19:00 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> which levers may I ask? |
| 19:00 |
FavoritoHJS |
...most of which you lost form licensing |
| 19:00 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> because i3 presumably is free software |
| 19:00 |
FavoritoHJS |
remember: your code is mit'd |
| 19:00 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> which includes the freedom to redistribute it |
| 19:00 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> you licensed it under MIT, you're not gonna be able to take it down |
| 19:00 |
FavoritoHJS |
i suggest you think, why are you shooting yourself in the foot like this? |
| 19:01 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I'm certain that if i3 gets delisted, a libre fork will be put up. |
| 19:01 |
kilbith |
you will see |
| 19:01 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> TBH it'd be best if the mt-mods team did this. |
| 19:01 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> o.o |
| 19:01 |
muurkha |
haha |
| 19:01 |
rubenwardy |
if you have such levers then i3 shouldn't be on CDB at all |
| 19:01 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> kilbith: are you implying i3 is covertly nonfree? |
| 19:01 |
FavoritoHJS |
from minecraftland i recall two cases similar to this -- gregtech and reika, they both had a much, MUCH better justification... and they both ended up nearly forgotten for 6 years and yes respectibly |
| 19:01 |
muurkha |
he's probably just threatening to stalk you and beat you up |
| 19:01 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> (excepting those 4 sounds) |
| 19:01 |
muurkha |
or DDoS the CDB |
| 19:02 |
muurkha |
so I wouldn't worry too much about it |
| 19:02 |
muurkha |
excuse me, they; I don't know kilbith's gender |
| 19:02 |
kilbith |
otherwise I suggest that the whole community closes their eyes and forget what had happened today, until eventually (and unlikely) the lawyers come up. |
| 19:02 |
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| 19:03 |
muurkha |
FavoritoHJS: respectibly? |
| 19:03 |
FavoritoHJS |
yes |
| 19:03 |
FavoritoHJS |
sorry |
| 19:03 |
VoidStalker[m] |
kilbith: What happened today? |
| 19:03 |
rubenwardy |
he got found out for stealing sounds from Factorio |
| 19:03 |
FavoritoHJS |
4 sound bites from factorio found in i3, kb responds with nuking the whole mod from orbit |
| 19:04 |
muurkha |
and now he's threatening revenge against anyone who complies with i3's license |
| 19:04 |
muurkha |
*they're |
| 19:05 |
definitelya_ |
Peace, sunshine and rainbows anybody? Chill |
| 19:06 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> tenplus at least wanted to reconcile, sheesh |
| 19:06 |
FavoritoHJS |
the closest analogue i can think of is plustic, which... yes, that actually seems very close |
| 19:07 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Well if I decided I wanted c418's songs in my game I'd be flamboozled off the discord |
| 19:07 |
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| 19:07 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> https://content.minetest.net/packages/Thisaccountis42/mcl_jukebox_c418/ |
| 19:07 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> C418's CC-BY licensed music is fine |
| 19:08 |
FavoritoHJS |
...unless you can somehow get them in a valid license, which oh wait [some of them are](https://content.minetest.net/packages/Thisaccountis42/mcl_jukebox_c418/) |
| 19:08 |
FavoritoHJS |
hmm, does the irc-discord bridge also happen to resolve markdown links? |
| 19:08 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> oh yeah it does haha |
| 19:08 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> How hard can it be to go to free sound and type in some random words that sound like what you're thinking, license Cc0, and swap them out. Takes like 5 minutes unless you're a real picky piece of poop like me |
| 19:08 |
ROllerozxa |
[cool link](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ) |
| 19:09 |
ROllerozxa |
fuck, embed |
| 19:09 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> LOL |
| 19:09 |
ROllerozxa |
*there was an attempt* |
| 19:09 |
MTDiscord |
<rubenwardy> cool link |
| 19:09 |
MTDiscord |
<rubenwardy> doesn't work on discord |
| 19:09 |
FavoritoHJS |
hah, knew it |
| 19:09 |
MTDiscord |
<rubenwardy> weird to have more features over a bridge |
| 19:09 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Is Jones Pickleton the creator of i3? |
| 19:09 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> muurkha: if you look at his GH profile (https://github.com/kilbith/), you will find that male pronouns are likely safe to use |
| 19:10 |
ROllerozxa |
I guess it makes sense considering bots have the ability to use some more markdown features, though I thought it only was possible within embeds |
| 19:10 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> rubenwardy: yeah, it only works if bots / webhooks do it 🙃 |
| 19:12 |
muurkha |
definitelya_: is there a mod for peace, sunshine, and rainbows? |
| 19:12 |
definitelya_ |
Nyan cat maybe? |
| 19:12 |
muurkha |
the irc-discord bridge is just displaying the raw Markdown, which is fine |
| 19:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Sunshine is builtin, nyancats provide rainbows ... for peace, you might be on your own. |
| 19:13 |
sfan5 |
rubenwardy: actually, does the DMCA "if you gain knowledge of it" only apply to the copyright holder complaining or in general? |
| 19:13 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> KILBITH why u no change the sounds, please I beg of you |
| 19:13 |
FavoritoHJS |
peace would mean no hostile mobs which... oh look, mtg doesn't include any mobs by default |
| 19:13 |
rubenwardy |
sfan5: there's a precedure for the copyright holder complaining, but there's also a section about "gaining actual knowledge" |
| 19:13 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Ahem, fireflies |
| 19:14 |
FavoritoHJS |
not mobs, just nodes, you can even punch them (punching not recommended for the firefly/butterfly) |
| 19:15 |
rubenwardy |
See C here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/512 |
| 19:15 |
rubenwardy |
the bit I quote is separate to the bit about DMCA notices |
| 19:15 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> If a node moves around, does that make it a mob? I mean, the only difference is the amount of precision the intelligence is using to move around the environment |
| 19:16 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> There have been node-based "mobs" such as nc_snakes already. |
| 19:16 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> It works, but it just isn't quite as smooth as you probably want it to be. |
| 19:17 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Of course not, it's a node |
| 19:19 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> What would Richard Stallman think of 🤮 proprietary 🤮 audio 🤮 bytes 🤮 |
| 19:20 |
muurkha |
He's probably written an essay about this on the FSF website |
| 19:20 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> He's writing it as we speak 😔 |
| 19:21 |
kilbith |
legit question: what would happen to Mona Lisa if was "forked"? |
| 19:21 |
kilbith |
*if it |
| 19:21 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Someone would throw paint on the original and make it an nft |
| 19:21 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Nah, I think you have to burn it to make it a proper NFT. |
| 19:22 |
kilbith |
Mona Lisa would be banged up |
| 19:22 |
rubenwardy |
if it were forkable then there would be multiple copies of it, the original would be the same and still in the Louvre |
| 19:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> (C) only applies for life of the author plus some time, which has probably passed already for the Mona Lisa, so recreating the image may be fair game. Well, in the USA, it would be considered "public domain", but I don't know what it would be in countries that don't have one of those. |
| 19:23 |
rubenwardy |
the Mono Lisa is out of copyright as well... yeah exactly, you can already fork the mona lisa and make derivatives |
| 19:23 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The image of the Mona Lisa would be copyrightable, whereas the actual original Mona Lisa would be moot because even today the technology to copy the actual canvas doesn't exist. |
| 19:23 |
kilbith |
except that you put the original at the door and let forks go into the Louvre. |
| 19:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If the original were, say, radioactive, then yeah, I'd probably keep that in a vault in the basement and put a copy on display instead. |
| 19:24 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> So all kilbith has to do is put those audio files in the louvre for 200 years and he can use them without worry? |
| 19:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If, say, the Louvre didn't actually HAVE the Mona Lisa because it was actually owned by, say, the creators of Factorio, then it wouldn't be a question of whether the Louvre allows it inside or not. |
| 19:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If somebody stole it and then hung it inside the Louvre, I'm sure the cops would totally just leave it there after they heard the curators' "well WE didn't do it" excuse. |
| 19:26 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> That's the best reasoning I've ever heard |
| 19:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Nah, it's not exactly 200 years. It's like, the creator's life plus 70 or something? Or was it 130 now? |
| 19:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Basically "creator's life plus however long Walt Disney has been dead" |
| 19:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I don't disagree that this whole song and dance is pretty stupid, either, it's just not our call whether we're required to do it or not. |
| 19:29 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> https://tenor.com/view/dancing-dog-gif-13304250 |
| 19:30 |
muurkha |
the Mona Lisa has been forked thousands of times |
| 19:30 |
muurkha |
there's a Wikipedia article about forks of the Mona Lisa in fact: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mona_Lisa_replicas_and_reinterpretations |
| 19:31 |
kilbith |
all quality forks! |
| 19:31 |
kilbith |
/s |
| 19:31 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Monard lizard is currently on the domain of publicity though |
| 19:32 |
muurkha |
fortunately in 16th-century Italy there was no copyright law, so people started forking it immediately |
| 19:33 |
muurkha |
this is apparently the oldest known fork: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mona_Lisa_replicas_and_reinterpretations#/media/File:Gioconda_%28copia_del_Museo_del_Prado_restaurada%29.jpg |
| 19:35 |
muurkha |
by Leonardo's own apprentice |
| 19:36 |
muurkha |
apparently it was painted while the original was being painted, making it really a fork and not just a version |
| 19:41 |
muurkha |
there's a category in Wikimedia Commons with 150 files and 6 subcategories: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Derivative_works_of_Mona_Lisa |
| 19:44 |
muurkha |
of hundreds of forks of the Mona Lisa |
| 19:46 |
muurkha |
156 + 31 + 20 + 11 + 14 + 2 + 3 + 14 + 12 + 16 + 38 + 29 + 5 + 16 + 3 + 6 + 33 forks of the Mona Lisa, I think, although surely there are many more that have not been uploaded to Commons |
| 19:46 |
muurkha |
409 forks in total |
| 20:00 |
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| 20:20 |
independent56 |
Can i use FreeCAD for models as it is what i feel most comfortable using? |
| 20:21 |
independent56 |
Like, i find Blender difficult and too free. I like Freecad as it gives me fine control over each piece without worryign about touching wrong things |
| 20:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> You should be able to as long as you can export them to a format that MT can use. |
| 20:23 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Also fistbump, unexpected fellow FreeCAD user (though seemingly not for the same purpose) |
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| 20:26 |
muurkha |
yeah, you can |
| 20:28 |
independent56 |
Yeah, i use OJB files as output |
| 20:28 |
independent56 |
They're human reaable |
| 20:29 |
independent56 |
I like freecad as you have to specify the exact locations of things instead of dragging them around. It's more better. |
| 20:30 |
muurkha |
it's helpful if you include the FreeCAD file in the mod source code though |
| 20:30 |
muurkha |
it helps people mod the mod |
| 20:32 |
muurkha |
CC-BY-SA doesn't require this, but if you license the mesh under the GPL, the GPL does require it. but the GPL also arguably requires you to include the full source code of FreeCAD in that case, so it's probably better to just use CC-BY-SA or CC-BY or CC0 for the media |
| 20:33 |
independent56 |
Yeah, i will do that |
| 20:36 |
independent56 |
Here are the rough designs i made: https://i.imgur.com/LI9USpE.png |
| 20:36 |
independent56 |
They;re very messy and can't wait to be converted |
| 20:37 |
independent56 |
I've decided to go for creating many seperate modules and having a small little file tell a python script how to mix the files together |
| 20:37 |
independent56 |
Something like mastbase+ladder for putting mastbase.obj and ladder.obj together |
| 20:37 |
independent56 |
Merging works, but i haven't tested rotating using stuff like wire*r or wire*90 |
| 20:37 |
muurkha |
neat, I imagine that's easy to do in FreeCAD? |
| 20:38 |
independent56 |
Yeah, they're ok |
| 20:38 |
independent56 |
I can make a light cover by subtracting a cylynder, a smaller cykynder, and a cuboid |
| 20:42 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Supposedly Blender experts can get comparable precision to FreeCAD and can even do useful CAD-type work in it ... but yeah, the learning curve for FreeCAD was bad enough, but Blender's is even harsher. |
| 20:43 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I use FreeCAD pretty extensively for my 3D printing stuff. |
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| 20:45 |
muurkha |
oh, of course you can do anything in Blender you can do in FreeCAD |
| 20:45 |
muurkha |
but there are things that are a lot easier to do in FreeCAD |
| 20:46 |
muurkha |
(*you* obviously know this since you use it) |
| 20:47 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I've learned blender like 2 or 3 times now and I STILL don't know how to use it. I learned FreeCAD once, and there has yet to be a version update that's broken that. |
| 20:48 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Granted, about 40% of what I know about FreeCAD is how to avoid all the stupid crashes and stuff caused by me using cheap shortcuts instead of drafting things out "properly" but 🤷 |
| 20:49 |
muurkha |
heh, yeah, I've found it a bit unstable |
| 20:54 |
independent56 |
I still don't know what each of the workspaces do because "part" is good enough |
| 20:55 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Draft has Modification -> Array tools which I get a ton of value out of ... but yeah, Part is where I spend like 90% of my time too 😄 |
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| 23:08 |
kilbith |
https://github.com/minetest-mods/i3/commit/5d4f9b47 |
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