Minetest logo

IRC log for #minetest, 2023-01-10

| Channels | #minetest index | Today | | Google Search | Plaintext

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:09 mckaygerhard left #minetest
00:14 FavoritoHJS joined #minetest
00:26 AliasAlreadyTake joined #minetest
00:52 eggman joined #minetest
00:57 smk joined #minetest
01:18 YuGiOhJCJ joined #minetest
01:21 Noisytoot joined #minetest
01:31 lemonzest joined #minetest
02:27 jwmhjwmh joined #minetest
02:37 sometalgoo joined #minetest
03:29 Lesha_Vel joined #minetest
03:51 Noisytoot joined #minetest
04:09 fluxionary joined #minetest
04:22 Noisytoot joined #minetest
04:29 YuGiOhJCJ joined #minetest
04:38 Verticen joined #minetest
04:47 lissobone Question two.
04:48 lissobone How do I deal with "invalid minetest.after invocation"?
04:48 lissobone It occurs when the function passed as an argunent is declared before the invocation.
04:48 lissobone Argument*.
04:51 lissobone What is math.huge?
04:51 lissobone Is it something actually huge?
04:54 lissobone I somehow fixed it. Seems that it has something to do with scope.
05:00 MTDiscord joined #minetest
05:22 GNUHacker joined #minetest
05:51 lissobone I have released the first version.
07:02 sparky4 joined #minetest
07:06 deept joined #minetest
07:21 sparky4 joined #minetest
07:27 diceLibrarian joined #minetest
07:33 deept joined #minetest
08:36 calcul0n_ joined #minetest
08:38 TomTom joined #minetest
08:57 appguru joined #minetest
09:08 MTDiscord <luatic> lissobone: There are no function declarations in Lua. A declared but uninitialized variable will be nil. Thus, when you do local var; minetest.after(42, var); var = function() ... end, you're passing nil rather than the function to minetest.after. You have to initialize the variable with the function as a value before you can use it.
09:09 MTDiscord <luatic> math.huge is Lua's way of expressing the special number (double) value +Inf, a value that results e.g. from 42/0 (division of a positive number by zero) as zero is assumed to be an infinitesimally small number in this case. +Inf compares greater than every other number value except for itself (it compares equal to itself) and "not a number" (NaN).
09:22 Trifton_ joined #minetest
09:25 olliy joined #minetest
09:37 appguru joined #minetest
09:43 lissobone Well, I did initialize it.
09:43 lissobone I fixed it, though.
09:43 lissobone I declared a local table, and declared my functions inside that table.
10:12 lissobone I mean, I initialized the value.
10:13 lissobone The functions were initialized in the very beginning.
10:15 lissobone There were 2 funcitons, and in each one there was a minetest.after, which pointed at a different funciton.
10:15 lissobone Basically, f1 -> f2, f2 -> f1.
10:29 mrkubax10 joined #minetest
11:00 MTDiscord <luatic> so local function f1() minetest.after(42, f2) end; local function f2() minetest.after(33, f1) end? This won't work because at the time f1 is declared, the local variable f2 is not in scope; thus, the "global" variable f1 is accessed instead. To make mutual recursion work, either use (1) an API table, of which the implicit API table _G is a special case, or (2) more efficient and explicit "late binding": Use a forward declaration local f2;
11:00 MTDiscord local function f1() minetest.after(42, f2) end; function f2() minetest.after(33, f1) end. Note that the definition of f2 now doeesn't use the local keyword anymore, since f2 has already been declared as local.
11:04 GoatAvenger joined #minetest
11:10 mrkubax10 left #minetest
11:13 kilbith I'd like to inform you that the i3 mod is threatened with delisting and may no longer exist on ContentDB. it could sign the death warrant of this project.
11:13 kilbith https://content.minetest.net/threads/4118/
11:14 lissobone WHAT
11:14 lissobone The page cannot be displayed.
11:15 kilbith https://i.imgur.com/4nDL61G.png
11:15 definitelya joined #minetest
11:16 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> for fuck's sake kilbith
11:19 lissobone I've got an insane idea.
11:19 lissobone Hear me out
11:20 sfan5 well, what is the official CDB policy for addressing problematic licensing?
11:20 mrkubax10 joined #minetest
11:21 mrkubax10 left #minetest
11:23 lissobone OK, I have read the unified inventory license from that screenshot.
11:23 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> sfan5: generally we take down packages with copyrighted content immediately when we are made aware of it. however, in the case of i3 we decided to reach out privately to resolve it without having to take down the package
11:24 lissobone What is the GNU Library GPL? Didn't GNU choose a different name for it (Lesser GPL)?
11:24 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> library GPL is the older license for it I think?
11:24 lissobone So, it's LGPL?
11:24 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> license, I mean name
11:24 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> yeah
11:25 lissobone The older name? I recall something from gnu.org about the history of LGPL.
11:25 kilbith let's see what they do for Unified Inventory
11:25 lissobone It mentioned that they had to rename the license, since "Library" would imply that it's supposed to be applied to libraries.
11:26 kilbith the community will be well aware of everything going on there
11:26 lissobone Alright, it's LGPL. So, what's the issue? Were the sounds redistributed under a permissive license?
11:26 kilbith no, it's not
11:27 lissobone Alright.
11:27 lissobone I'm (quite) confused, as usual.
11:29 lissobone Oh, so there's no license whatsoever?
11:30 kilbith I have to highlight a bit of context
11:31 lissobone Yea?
11:31 mrkubax10 joined #minetest
11:31 kilbith 3 days ago, luk3yx (contributor of Unified Inventory) asked me out on IRC publicly about licensing: https://irc.minetest.net/minetest/2023-01-07#i_6045486
11:32 kilbith it comes with no surprise that today I am pilloried on CDB
11:32 kilbith it's a strategic move from the Unified Inventory crew
11:32 lissobone I see my messages there!
11:32 lissobone Greetings.
11:32 lissobone My favorite word.
11:32 lissobone And also your messages.
11:33 lissobone Regarding the i3_cannot.ogg sound effect.
11:34 lissobone I don't see any other messages related to you or i3, though.
11:42 mrkubax10 left #minetest
11:45 sfan5 ROllerozxa: this is just an informal standard and not a written policy is it?
11:52 rubenwardy Here's my response. i3 currently has Factorio sounds and ContentDB is legally required to remove access to copyright infringing packages when we are made aware: https://rwdy.uk/jElJL.png
11:54 rubenwardy sfan5: slightly outdated as it doesn't mention the notice period but https://content.minetest.net/help/copyright/#what-does-contentdb-do
11:55 kilbith hope Unified Inventory is going to the exact same process
11:55 sparky4 joined #minetest
11:55 kilbith 2 days deadline and all
11:56 kilbith otherwise this will badly reflect onto CDB
11:58 mrkubax10 joined #minetest
12:01 kilbith I should again add a bit of anecdotical context: luk3yx is a permanent worker of MultiCraft since years, they always have been in rivalry with me to get the more hours of work
12:03 Leopold joined #minetest
12:04 sfan5 rubenwardy: look good
12:06 sfan5 in any case the potential conflict of interest isn't more than an interesting factoid, given that the copyright issue is genuine
12:07 kilbith I recognize the copyright issue and I won't be lying about it
12:07 proller joined #minetest
12:08 kilbith I stole some assets and I don't know how to properly fix that in about 2 days
12:08 kilbith given that I have a job
12:14 proller joined #minetest
12:25 mrkubax10 left #minetest
12:32 kilbith I could ask the explicit permission from the Factorio team to use their sounds, though
12:32 rubenwardy see https://content.minetest.net/help/copyright/#i-have-permission-from-the-author for that
12:32 kilbith it's that, or nothing, there'll be no compromise with lower quality sounds
12:35 proller joined #minetest
12:35 mazes_80 joined #minetest
12:43 jwmhjwmh joined #minetest
12:46 kilbith good point: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=420434#p420434
12:48 kilbith there will be no double standards
12:51 celeron55 it seems quite bichy to complain about your project getting threats inside the community when you (with others) are putting the entire MT content ecosystem in risk of threats from actual lawyers from actual companies
12:51 kilbith the Minecraft ecosystem has been long well living with stolen assets
12:52 celeron55 just replace the sounds with bad sounds. if you don't have time, someone will come up with better ones in due time and contribute them
12:53 celeron55 the MC ecosystem is not used, and is not usable by organizations such as schools, because of things like that. The MT ecosystem is, because it takes copyright seriously
12:54 celeron55 taking laws seriously gives value to the project
12:54 kilbith why did RBA never got a threat then, in years
12:54 rubenwardy also, hosts like Steam Workshop and Nexus mods will be following copyright law as well, they just don't require open licenses
12:54 kilbith explain me
12:55 kilbith s/got/get
12:55 celeron55 well, obviously things go unnoticed until somebody notices
12:58 celeron55 i'll rephrase this: MT itself can exist with stolen assets, but the userbase of MT and the distribution channels will be limited if it uses stolen assets. it's the difference between a grey area hobby project vs. a real project anyone and any organization can use and distribute. in this sense, MT's goal is to be a real project
12:59 MTDiscord <Bla> sorry to interrupt, thought time could be better spend looking for replacements sounds killbith just a few suggestions i3_click.ogg https://freesound.org/people/Ranner/sounds/487452/ i3_cannot.ogg https://freesound.org/people/unfa/sounds/565133/ i3_craft.ogg https://freesound.org/people/cookies+policy/sounds/556630/ i3_tab.ogg https://freesound.org/people/moogy73/sounds/425728/
13:00 celeron55 and, of course it cannot be proven MT and its ecosystem doesn't use stolen assets. However we can prove we react according to the law when stolen assets are found, and that will be enough for organizations with lawyers to accept MT
13:01 lissobone Permanent worker of MultiCraft?
13:02 lissobone Sounds tragic.
13:02 kilbith no sorry I don't want your shitty assets from broken, undertalented artists
13:02 kilbith I have higher standards than that
13:02 lissobone Also, maybe ask me to make sounds?
13:02 lissobone I've got some experience with making sound effects for my mods.
13:04 celeron55 i'd say go ahead and do it, those replcament sounds will be useful for many
13:04 celeron55 replacement*
13:04 celeron55 i don't understand why kilbith is so proud about his stolen assets
13:04 kilbith all of you here wouldn't be able to make it something on-par with what a professional team of artists from a commercial game can do
13:05 celeron55 it's like i stole a ferrari and drove around it with a big grin, thinking I'm the greatest
13:05 celeron55 in it*
13:05 MTDiscord <Bla> killbith: nice way to say ty to someone that tried to help but well go on keep whining and waste time
13:06 lissobone I bombed an orphanage and walked away with a sad grin, thinking I didn't do well enough.
13:06 lissobone I can make those sounds right now, I just need to know what they have to be like.
13:07 celeron55 i guess just download i3 and check the existing sounds and their purpose
13:08 lissobone Ok.
13:08 lissobone Hold up.
13:09 lissobone [In order to continue, enter] TOMATO JUICE.
13:09 celeron55 https://github.com/minetest-mods/i3/tree/main/sounds
13:09 celeron55 do we have the definitive list of stolen sounds, as not all of those are?
13:10 lissobone Viewing...
13:10 rubenwardy i3_cannot.ogg, i3_click.ogg, i3_craft.ogg, i3_tab.ogg
13:10 lissobone This doesn't look like a lot of sounds.
13:11 lissobone Ok, analyzing those...
13:12 celeron55 if kilbith is dropping i3 just because of 4 sounds, that sounds like he was looking for a reason to drop it anyway
13:13 kilbith I don't have any intent to "drop" it, CDB will sentence it
13:13 celeron55 is multicraft also using those sounds?
13:14 lissobone So, shall I just remake those sounds and release the new ones under a free license like CC-BY-SA 4.0 or CC0?
13:15 proller joined #minetest
13:15 celeron55 yes. i don't think there's much more you can do
13:16 celeron55 then you'll have to hope having the sounds floating around will help solve the issue in one way or another
13:16 lissobone Well, I can also commit extra [Crimes] [Completely free of chrage!].
13:18 rubenwardy you could make a release without the sounds and then add sounds later when you have more time
13:22 kilbith I could also say that celeron55 has a personal issue with me anyway
13:24 sfan5 you could say a lot more, none of which is relevant to the issue at hand
13:26 lissobone Personal issue?
13:27 Trifton joined #minetest
13:28 lissobone Once I'm finished with the sounds, I'll host them on my web server (you'll get the link).
13:28 FavoritoHJS joined #minetest
13:35 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Note that if anyone else has any other non-foss-pedigree assets out there, it may take a while, but it's only a matter of time before someone notices, reports it, and then CDB is forced to take this kind of action.
13:36 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It's best to get ahead of this while you have the luxury of taking the time to do it right.
13:37 kilbith to put things in perspective so everybody realize: i3 gets circa. 10K downloads per month; it is in the same order of magnitude than the Minetest client itself.
13:37 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Yes, that makes this a pretty serious case of infringement.
13:55 proller joined #minetest
14:00 FavoritoHJS managed to id the following sounds:
14:00 FavoritoHJS dingdong.ogg: Metadata says it's from Sony Sound Forge 8.0. I can only hope the sound licensing allows relicensing...
14:00 FavoritoHJS teleport.ogg: Metadata says it's from FL Studio 9.0. I can only hope the sound licensing allows relicensing...
14:00 FavoritoHJS so rest in peace technic craftguide i guess
14:02 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If those metadata IDs are identifying sound libraries/collections, then yes, it may indicate that they're (C) by somebody and a license from them that allows this use is required.  If those are tools/editors, then (C) does not apply merely from using a tool, it's still the original work of the person operating the tool, unless the tool is mixing in something copyrightable as part of the process.
14:03 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If those tools have some kind of "everything you make with this tool is owned by us" kind of EULA thing, then that may be enough that we have to treat it as valid and reject it from CDB anyway ... but I'd really hope somebody would fight that in court and invalidate it because that sounds like some real bullshit.
14:04 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Like on par with dentists making patients sign forms that preemptively reassign copyright to all reviews to the dentist so that they can DMCA takedown the negative reviews.
14:05 kilbith I've reported the technic mod, it also doesn't have licenses for (most of) their sounds
14:05 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Yep, let the Audit Wars continue, I guess 🤷
14:06 lissobone Why not just tell the authors to either license their sounds or find free ones instead of reporting?
14:06 kilbith the community will be able to observe if there will be a double-standard, or not.
14:06 kilbith I swear that
14:07 FavoritoHJS oh you meant literally the report button
14:07 FavoritoHJS the one that allows only the staff to see the report
14:08 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It's all about the same to us in CDB.  Once we become aware there's a problem we're basically required to act.  It doesn't matter very much how it reaches us.  If you feel like cutting the author some slack, you can contact them privately outside CDB, but you have no obligation to, and it'd still be your responsibility to report it eventually if that author ghosted you anyway.
14:08 kilbith https://content.minetest.net/threads/4123/
14:09 FavoritoHJS with these mods i'm unsure how it will be done, especially technic considering the author is kinda dead
14:09 lissobone 11 seconds ago?
14:09 FavoritoHJS maybe a redirect to technic-plus?
14:09 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> technic is under minetest-mods iirc, it's still maintained
14:09 rubenwardy the technic author is very much dead
14:10 lissobone In what sense dead?
14:10 rubenwardy he died in 2016
14:10 lissobone Like, on CWHAT
14:10 MTDiscord <Niklp> mt-mods' technic is maintained
14:10 lissobone Wait, I recall something.
14:10 lissobone Hold up.
14:11 FavoritoHJS oh, i'd have sworn the mod hasn't been maintaned since her death but it's mt-mods propery now
14:11 FavoritoHJS despite the author being rba and not mt-mods...
14:11 lissobone Propery?
14:11 rubenwardy his, and RealBadAngel
14:11 lissobone It's free software.
14:11 MTDiscord <Niklp> note: minetest-mods and mt-mods isn't the same
14:11 lissobone Everyone is an owner of thier own copy.
14:12 rubenwardy also, worth noting there's a difference between unclear copyright and copyright infringement - unclear copyright is against CDB's rules but not necessarily against copyright law
14:12 kilbith missing license means /de facto/ proprietary
14:13 kilbith and here's starts the double-standard I guess?
14:13 rubenwardy proprietary isn't illegal - but is against CDB's rules
14:13 FavoritoHJS but what if it originally had a license but the license got lost along the way...
14:14 rubenwardy Anyway, I have contacted UI's maintainer and will contact Technic's as soon as I work out who that is
14:14 rubenwardy rather not need an ouija board
14:14 rubenwardy from the commit log, appears to be Krock
14:15 kilbith so to sum it all: I /demand/ that Unified Inventory (+ all games/mods packaging it) and Technic (+ all games packaging) go to the same audit than i3.
14:15 Desour joined #minetest
14:15 kilbith immediately and with the same deadline.
14:15 ROllerozxa kilbith: and that is what's happening, right now
14:15 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Dunno who you're demanding it of, but if you want to make sure it happens, do it yourself.
14:15 kilbith thanks
14:15 Noisytoot joined #minetest
14:15 fluxionary joined #minetest
14:15 FavoritoHJS guess you'll have to contact both mt-mods and minetest-mods since they both have a technic thing
14:16 FavoritoHJS the official technic mod is by minetest-mods though
14:16 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Anyone can find misused or unlicensed assets, code, whatever, and report them.
14:16 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I dunno how various people feel about this, and I understand there's some pain/annoyance at least, but in the long run, I think the cleansing fire of a license audit is something to be welcomed.
14:17 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The work of people who care about the quality of the work they do, including licensing, is devalued by other people getting away with corner cutting.
14:18 FavoritoHJS also is it just me or is kb's behaviour kinda odd? like he immediately assumed that we're treating him differently when it more than likely was just a delay
14:20 kilbith I've a lot of people who want to put a spoke in my wheels, out of jealousy
14:20 lissobone Stalin moment.
14:20 ROllerozxa jealousy?
14:20 Noisytoot joined #minetest
14:21 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Odd is not how I would describe it.  Actually, the whole "I'm being singled out" response has become the de facto standard for suddenly finding out that the laws still apply to you, no matter how many downloads you have.
14:21 GNUHacker how can I edit my world_dir/world.sqlite in my remote server via ssh?
14:22 MTDiscord <Warr1024> sqlite3 command line tool?
14:22 ROllerozxa GNUHacker: sqlite CLI?
14:22 rubenwardy If you meant map.sqlite, then the easiest way is by running a minetest server
14:22 rubenwardy If you meant world.mt then nano or vim
14:22 Desour if all you want to do is edit the file, `$ echo cat > world_dir/world.sqlite` does also work
14:22 lissobone GNUHacker: you can edit your files via SSH the same way you would do so right at your computer through the terminal.
14:24 lissobone Ok, I have finished the click sound effect.
14:24 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Unless "edit" means "delete specific mapblocks" you're probably not going to have a good time doing this, because MT's map files are largely opaquely encoded to somebody using generic database tools.
14:24 lissobone Hope it fits with the overall theme.
14:24 FavoritoHJS hmm, is there an mcedit-like editor for mt worlds?
14:24 lissobone There are editors for sqlite3, I think.
14:25 lissobone Python sqlite3 module?
14:25 ROllerozxa yeah in a sqlite editor all the map will look like are blobs and indexed mapblock positions
14:25 lissobone Might be useful.
14:25 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The most popular editor I know of for MT worlds is MT.
14:26 lissobone But he wants to edit them via SSH.
14:26 lissobone Maybe run a graphical server via ssh?
14:26 MTDiscord <Warr1024> In theory you can decode the map format (it's documented) and manually hack on it, but that's probably a lot of programming work.
14:26 MinetestBot [git] TurkeyMcMac -> minetest/minetest: Error when string.split is given empty separator (#13132) ab1fe80 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/ab1fe80150a8031fb702b9ff776db2db4dea89a4 (2023-01-10T14:25:48Z)
14:27 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Your best bet is to just transfer the map over ssh, run MT with a possibly modified version of the game/mods (e.g. disabling ABMs, timers, and other things that would make unrelated changes while you're editing), make your changes in-game, then transfer the map back.
14:27 Desour you can also start a minetest server and then connect to it from your local pc
14:28 ROllerozxa mount the server with SSHFS and run a server locally using the remote files 🙃
14:29 lissobone Edit the server in binary form remotely using GNU Emacs, since it supports editing remote files.
14:29 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I added a /stasis command/feature to NodeCore that basically disables every "world evolving on its own over time" type of process except for liquid transform.  It turned out that there were a handful of types of hooks I needed to do this in (globalsteps, ABMs, LBMs, entity on_step, etc).  In principle that kind of thing could be done to other games as well, using a code editor to look for patterns (I don't think it would be as easy to
14:29 MTDiscord encapsulate it into a mod but MAYBE).  That would allow you to just slap in WorldEdit and then edit in peace in-engine.
14:29 lissobone Or run minetest in Emacs.
14:30 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Roller: I was on the cusp of suggesting SSHFS, but really "run the MT server over there" is still a better option.  We don't know how bad the performance OR safety impacts would be of SSHFS on sqlite or MT.
14:30 Desour lissobone: just out of interest (I've never attempted to create sound effects), what tools are you using to create your sound effects / what is your workflow, is it easy?
14:32 Fixer joined #minetest
14:32 sfan5 somewhat related cool thing https://sfxr.me/
14:33 lissobone My workflow: assemble tomato juice using tomato paste and fresh mountain water; start up my computer (it is usually already running, since I never turn it off); think of a sound effect; record audio of some household good; edit the sound it produces; the sound effect is ready.
14:33 lissobone Step 8: disassemble tomato juice.
14:33 Desour xD
14:33 MTDiscord <Warr1024> disassemble tomato juice into constituent amino acids using digestive enzymes
14:33 lissobone I don't usually edit the effects heavily, just come cropping and noise reduction.
14:34 lissobone I use ffmpeg for editing.
14:34 FavoritoHJS if in doubt, fm synthesis
14:34 lissobone Hold up, my family needs to borrow my computer to watch a movie.
14:35 Desour thx lissobone ^^
14:38 Desour sfan5: indeed cool
14:38 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Personally, I'm a fan of foley art as a basis: a microphone and some objects you find around you.  Sometimes heavy editing is needed to get the effect you're looking for, sometimes just a little cropping.
14:39 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The whole PSG or FM thing would be cool if MT could adopt that as a standard ... the fact that it doesn't actually seems a bit weird, and is probably why a handful of sounds take up much more download space than a ton of textures.  We use these tiny low-res textures but high-def sounds, and that seems unbalanced.
14:40 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Turning a few bytes of FM synth instructions into megabytes of vorbis also seems pretty wasteful, but we would bikeshed eternally about adding an FM synth into MT.
14:42 Desour FM synth would probably come with tracker music support, no?
14:42 Desour (which is planned iirc)
14:42 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> libopenmpt in minetest would be awesome
14:42 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> there's an issue for it but it's kinda been hijacked by people who want MIDI support
14:43 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Tracker is not exactly FM, but yeah, it's much closer.
14:45 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Tracker is a bit more flexible, and a bit more costly, so it seems like a decent compromise.  If we supported vorbis and MIDI then I'd think tracker would be a good thing to cover in the gap between.
14:45 FavoritoHJS i think you could fake it right now with some sound shenanigans
14:45 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I'm not super invested in one side of the fight or another, but having a non-why-the-hell-is-it-taking-so-long-to-download experience for games with music would be really nice.
14:46 muurkha tracker music normally uses wavetable synthesis; I don't know if any trackers support FM
14:46 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> well being able to send music as dynamic media without the client freezing would be a nice alternative to that
14:46 FavoritoHJS simple sound for attack and decay, looping sound for sustain
14:46 MTDiscord <Warr1024> You can fake it, and I actually do in Klots right now.  However, multiplayer puts a pretty tight upper bound on the tempo of music if you want to be able to avoid network timing jitter from ruining your music.
14:46 fluxionary joined #minetest
14:47 FavoritoHJS openmpt supports a limited subset of opl3 (only 2 channels)
14:47 muurkha difficulty with tracker music is that you kind of have to build the sound in the tracker; you can't compress some arbitrary sound into tracker music
14:47 muurkha something like Opus (successor to Vorbis) might be a better option for stuff like sound effects
14:48 FavoritoHJS also might be Good Enough:tm: for music, I suspect 32k would be acceptable enough
14:48 muurkha 32 kilosamples per second?
14:48 FavoritoHJS 32 kbits
14:48 MTDiscord <Warr1024> MT can't do everything a tracker can do.  You've basically only got like 2 or 3 effects in MT (New Note, Note Cut, and Note Fade).  You also have to stream the music from the server, and there's no timing metadata, so notes are played on a "next client tick after the packets arrive" basis, which is probably unacceptable for a lot of different kinds of music.
14:49 muurkha probably with Opus it would usually be plenty
14:49 FavoritoHJS it won't sound too good but then again it's background music
14:49 FavoritoHJS iirc opus is always 48khz unless specified otherwise
14:49 muurkha you mean 48 kilosamples per second?
14:49 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I'd love to see Opus added; I don't see the point in supporting Vorbis but not Opus.  But it wouldn't really be sufficient for music.  There just wasn't that much room to compress beyond Vorbis anyway, so we're talking like a 5% to 10% improvement at best anyway.
14:49 muurkha Warr1024: if you have so few effects you'll have to write your own tracker
14:49 FavoritoHJS this time yes
14:49 Guest6645 joined #minetest
14:50 FavoritoHJS can clientside mods play sounds? if so, at least that would help minimize jitter issues
14:50 FavoritoHJS but then if you have a low framerate there will be jitter anyways
14:50 FavoritoHJS ahh, my kingdom for fixed tickrates
14:50 Desour for opus (and also flac, heh) support we could maybe use libsndfile (depended by libopenmpt anyway)
14:50 muurkha you can avoid jitter in the audio even with a low framerate (and doing so is important)
14:50 MTDiscord <Warr1024> CSMs have their own set of problems, and frankly the process needed to setup a CSM is probably bad enough that it's not worth it just for music...
14:51 Guest6645 Hello, got a quick question (didn't found any anserw for this). Do I need ENABLE_GLES=ON and ENABLE_SOUND=ON flash when I build server?
14:51 FavoritoHJS i don't think so if you want to only build a server
14:51 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> _SOUND and _GLES won't matter for a server binary
14:51 FavoritoHJS building a client without those flags will make it opengl only and disable sound
14:53 Guest6645 thats I suspected, great thanks
14:55 Guest6645 oh i forgot about somthing else, when I;m building server binary and run cmake i have this warrning
14:55 Guest6645 CMake Warning:
14:55 Guest6645 Manually-specified variables were not used by the project:
14:55 Guest6645 IRRLICHT_INCLUDE_DIR
14:55 Guest6645 cmake command looks like this: cmake . -DRUN_IN_PLACE=TRUE -DBUILD_SERVER=TRUE -DBUILD_CLIENT=FALSE -DIRRLICHT_INCLUDE_DIR=./lib/irrlichtmt/include  -DENABLE_GLES=OFF -DENABLE_POSTGRESQL=OFF -DENABLE_REDIS=OFF -DENABLE_SOUND=OFF
14:55 FavoritoHJS i imagine that's because irrlicht isn't included in a server binary
14:56 FavoritoHJS that library is used for rendering, and since a server doesn't render
14:56 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> Minetestserver only requires irrlichtmt headers
14:56 Desour > IRRLICHT_INCLUDE_DIR            - Directory that contains IrrCompileConfig.h (usable for server build only)
14:56 Desour ^ from README
14:57 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> btw if you put irrlichtmt into lib/irrlichtmt like usual it will be able to automatically use the headers from there, just like with the client
14:57 Guest6645 yea I've read README but I missunderstand it :/
14:58 Guest6645 I clone irrlichtmt in same folder where minetest is
14:58 Desour (I don't understand it either, my msg was just to correct FavoritoHJS )
14:59 Guest6645 :(
14:59 FavoritoHJS oh. I imagine that's to at least define noop functions
14:59 Guest6645 well so this warrning is ok and I DIRRLICHT_INCLUDE_DIR=./lib/irrlichtmt/include is needed for bare metal server binary or not
15:00 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Servers require IrrlichtMT as well, even though they don't render anything, because MT uses some of Irrlicht's data structures internally.
15:03 Desour Guest6645: are you getting "Using user-provided IrrlichtMt at subdirectory 'lib/irrlichtmt" ? if so, and if I read the cmake correctly, then the include dir variable is ignored / not used because lib/irrlichtmt exists
15:03 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> that sounds correct
15:03 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> so basically, if you're able to build the server you shouldn't worry
15:04 MTDiscord <luatic> kilbith: Stop slandering Unified Inventory contributors including luk3yx just because you violated copyright. Trying to "blackmail" the CDB staff by reporting other mods or threatening to cease your contributions is also completely irrelevant to the issue at play; it doesn't affect the legal obligations in the slightest. The fact that luk3yx contributed to MultiCraft is just as irrelevant.
15:04 MTDiscord <luatic> If this will cause the most popular mod and the second most popular inventory mod to be taken down, so be it.
15:05 Guest6645 Desour Im cloning repos from git README
15:05 Guest6645 just copy paste so yea i have it in ~/minetest/lib/irrlichtmt
15:06 Guest6645 i managed build server and created package everything works, I'm just curious if this warrning is something I need to worry about or mine cmake command looks ok
15:06 Desour as roller said, if it builds, it's all fine I guess ^^
15:06 Guest6645 :D
15:07 Desour you can probably just remove the -DIRRLICHT_INCLUDE_DIR=./lib/irrlichtmt/include to avoid the warning
15:08 Guest6645 I see, ok thank you very much.
15:08 Guest6645 (y)
15:08 kilbith well fuck you luatic, I didn't ask for your opinion; don't assume malice when it's just making sure there's no double-standard and highlighing CoI is also an healthy thing
15:09 kilbith now go do your school' homeworks
15:09 kilbith and stop pissing me off for once
15:17 kilbith there are two kinds of people: the ones who do things that benefit to a large amount of people, and the ones who only /comment/ what the formers do; you belong to the second category
15:19 MTDiscord <Bla> thank you to the people keeping cdb running for everyone
15:26 Desour ok, it's time for some pessimism. I've tried to use data from my yet most durable PR to extrapolate a realistic worst case scenario for my sound PR to be merged, assuming review time is directly proportional to added plus removed lines. it should be merged by may 2128
15:26 rubenwardy haha
15:26 rubenwardy how are you estimating that? Number of lines?
15:26 rubenwardy That sound PR is very appetising, just looks a bit filling
15:27 Desour added removed and added lines
15:28 Desour (to be fair, the PR I've based this on wasn't reviewable from the start, so maybe the merge will happen in this century)
15:30 rubenwardy that would be ideal
15:31 definitelya_ joined #minetest
15:31 Desour (anyway, don't feel too pressed by this to do a review soon. I currently don't have too much time to fix review issues anyway)
15:49 troller joined #minetest
16:10 troller joined #minetest
16:21 lissobone Greetings.
16:57 MTDiscord <luatic> kilbith: Two wrongs don't make a right. Other popular mods skimping on their licensing doesn't make it any more legal if you do it (and BTW I strongly suspect that the mods you are reporting might in fact even be using free sounds which were just not attributed properly, while you are clearly redistributing commercial sounds, possibly even knowing very well where they came from and that their redistribution is not permitted). BTW, please
16:57 MTDiscord stop lashing out at everybody.
16:58 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> lashing out at everybody seems to be his coping mechanism
16:58 MTDiscord <luatic> You're committing to the logical "taking it to the extremes" fallacy here. Replacing these sounds with lower quality free ones would hardly negatively affect the overall i3 user experience.
17:06 lissobone Maybe stop attacking him?
17:07 lissobone I'm already half-way on finishing the sounds.
17:08 Warr1024 Maybe, yeah.  Or maybe what comes around goes around, and when your response to getting called out on a mistake is to lash out at the people pointing it out, and trying to vilify the rest of the world, you bring this kind of thing on yourself.
17:08 Warr1024 lissobone, we do appreciate that you're working to actually *fix the problem*, but note how the criticism is also not directed at you either.
17:09 est31 joined #minetest
17:09 Warr1024 i.e. as much as anybody wants to make this bug report into a personal vendetta, simply a bug report it will remain.
17:10 lissobone I'm just worried that he's getting too much criticism.
17:13 lissobone I have just disposed of chemical waste.
17:22 Desour joined #minetest
17:22 lissobone Greetings.
17:22 Warr1024 tbh not all of the criticism is specifically about him or about this incident, but is also part of a general discussion about community standards.
17:23 Warr1024 We are at this sort of weird intersection of a FOSS project that cares very much about legally-enforceable user freedom, and a game modding community that's also used to having to cut some legal corners and rely on forbearance of copyright holders, and that causes culture clashes.
17:23 Warr1024 A lot of people come from like the MC modding community and their misunderstandings or disagreements about licensing aren't so much in the "how" of it but more fundamentally in the "why" of it.
17:25 Warr1024 It can be a bit of a culture shock when you're used to dealing with licenses on a "well, it's not quite right, but it's not all that important anyway" kind of basis and then suddenly small licensing hiccups become absolute show-stoppers.
17:25 Warr1024 You don't even need to be new to the community either; you just have to be new to having somebody actually file a report on something you did.
17:29 Warr1024 If we had things like a legal team that could negotiate with rightsholders for takedown processes that didn't expose volunteers to liability, or if we had things like corporate shields that limited the liability of individual volunteer operators, then we might be able to be more like other modding communities where we wait until an actual C&D
17:29 Warr1024 letter is sent by the rightsholder themselves or something, but as of right now, we don't even really have that option.
17:35 kabou joined #minetest
17:45 Leopold joined #minetest
17:47 lissobone Question.
17:48 lissobone Is it OK if it will say "error" with a robotic voice where the i3_cannot.ogg sound plays?
17:48 lissobone Because I've got an unused effect from my mod that does this.
17:49 lissobone kilbith: what are your thoughts?
17:49 rubenwardy that will be really annoying, given it's a UI and not a robot
17:49 rubenwardy you want a dull thud sound, that's common for errors
17:49 lissobone Alright.
17:53 est31 joined #minetest
18:01 est31 joined #minetest
18:02 Guest16 joined #minetest
18:09 FavoritoHJS joined #minetest
18:10 Verticen joined #minetest
18:15 Talkless joined #minetest
18:28 Leopold joined #minetest
18:31 qur joined #minetest
18:41 proller joined #minetest
18:46 MTDiscord <luatic> Ah also kilbith: You seem to be thinking everyone is out to replace i3 with UI. This is not the case. i3 is much more popular than UI and for a reason - it simply offers a much better experience, which is why it is important that it is libre.
18:49 kilbith lissobone: I'm not interested in your sounds, sorry
18:50 kilbith asking out the Factorio team will be last and only bullet, and it fails, i3 will be taken down, doomed to be a souvenir
18:50 kilbith +if
18:50 FavoritoHJS (laughs in forks)
18:51 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> don't worry, someone's gonna fork i3 into i5
18:51 kilbith i3 has been coded in such a way that it'll be hard to fork
18:51 kilbith understanding the codebase by someone else is known to be a PITA
18:52 kilbith it was created in such a way that I will remain the sole author and maintainer
18:52 rubenwardy bad code then
18:52 kilbith call it as you want
18:52 muurkha so your intention is to deny users the freedom to copy and modify it, even though the license technically permits it?
18:52 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> that's... an interesting strategy
18:53 kilbith like I said, if I had to possibilty to distribute as closed source, I'd have done it
18:54 FavoritoHJS did i expect anything else from the person who refused to merge xdecor free assets for so long it got forked?
18:54 FavoritoHJS and when called out on it pulled out the nazi card?
18:54 kilbith and put it under an ads webpage and make it a monthly salary out of it
18:54 kilbith like Optifine does
18:55 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> shudders ...optifine...
18:55 kilbith yes, I'm tired of doing things for free
18:56 muurkha oh, well, that makes sense
18:56 muurkha maybe you should write your own game instead of freeloading off the work of sfan5 and celeron55 (and rubenwardy and VanessaE and...)
18:57 muurkha because it sounds like you're working hard to not hold up your end of the bargain
18:58 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> also I don't think i3's code is that bad. the preprocessing stuff might slow someone down if they're not familiar with it but it's far from obfuscated
18:58 MTDiscord <luatic> kilbith: if i3 gets delisted due to not replacing the sounds with libre ones, I will put up a libre fork; replacing 4 sounds does not require understanding the codebase
18:58 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> that is also true, however
18:58 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> said i3 fork could be as-is with fixed sounds and still be good
18:58 MTDiscord <luatic> and yes, in the long run maintenance would be required, but i3 is maintainable
18:59 MTDiscord <luatic> (it is nothing compared to kimaprcode)
18:59 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> good fucking god kimaprcode
18:59 kilbith if anyone tries to fork it and put it on CDB, I've got other levers to take them down.
18:59 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> now that's obfuscated
18:59 MTDiscord <luatic> ("nothing" as in very readable)
19:00 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> are you... what
19:00 MTDiscord <luatic> which levers may I ask?
19:00 FavoritoHJS ...most of which you lost form licensing
19:00 MTDiscord <luatic> because i3 presumably is free software
19:00 FavoritoHJS remember: your code is mit'd
19:00 MTDiscord <luatic> which includes the freedom to redistribute it
19:00 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> you licensed it under MIT, you're not gonna be able to take it down
19:00 FavoritoHJS i suggest you think, why are you shooting yourself in the foot like this?
19:01 MTDiscord <luatic> I'm certain that if i3 gets delisted, a libre fork will be put up.
19:01 kilbith you will see
19:01 MTDiscord <luatic> TBH it'd be best if the mt-mods team did this.
19:01 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> o.o
19:01 muurkha haha
19:01 rubenwardy if you have such levers then i3 shouldn't be on CDB at all
19:01 MTDiscord <luatic> kilbith: are you implying i3 is covertly nonfree?
19:01 FavoritoHJS from minecraftland i recall two cases similar to this -- gregtech and reika, they both had a much, MUCH better justification... and they both ended up nearly forgotten for 6 years and yes respectibly
19:01 muurkha he's probably just threatening to stalk you and beat you up
19:01 MTDiscord <luatic> (excepting those 4 sounds)
19:01 muurkha or DDoS the CDB
19:02 muurkha so I wouldn't worry too much about it
19:02 muurkha excuse me, they; I don't know kilbith's gender
19:02 kilbith otherwise I suggest that the whole community closes their eyes and forget what had happened today, until eventually (and unlikely) the lawyers come up.
19:02 proller joined #minetest
19:03 muurkha FavoritoHJS: respectibly?
19:03 FavoritoHJS yes
19:03 FavoritoHJS sorry
19:03 VoidStalker[m] kilbith: What happened today?
19:03 rubenwardy he got found out for stealing sounds from Factorio
19:03 FavoritoHJS 4 sound bites from factorio found in i3, kb responds with nuking the whole mod from orbit
19:04 muurkha and now he's threatening revenge against anyone who complies with i3's license
19:04 muurkha *they're
19:05 definitelya_ Peace, sunshine and rainbows anybody? Chill
19:06 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> tenplus at least wanted to reconcile, sheesh
19:06 FavoritoHJS the closest analogue i can think of is plustic, which... yes, that actually seems very close
19:07 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Well if I decided I wanted c418's songs in my game I'd be flamboozled off the discord
19:07 qur joined #minetest
19:07 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> https://content.minetest.net/packages/Thisaccountis42/mcl_jukebox_c418/
19:07 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> C418's CC-BY licensed music is fine
19:08 FavoritoHJS ...unless you can somehow get them in a valid license, which oh wait [some of them are](https://content.minetest.net/packages/Thisaccountis42/mcl_jukebox_c418/)
19:08 FavoritoHJS hmm, does the irc-discord bridge also happen to resolve markdown links?
19:08 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> oh yeah it does haha
19:08 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> How hard can it be to go to free sound and type in some random words that sound like what you're thinking, license Cc0, and swap them out. Takes like 5 minutes unless you're a real picky piece of poop like me
19:08 ROllerozxa [cool link](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ)
19:09 ROllerozxa fuck, embed
19:09 MTDiscord <luatic> LOL
19:09 ROllerozxa *there was an attempt*
19:09 MTDiscord <rubenwardy> cool link
19:09 MTDiscord <rubenwardy> doesn't work on discord
19:09 FavoritoHJS hah, knew it
19:09 MTDiscord <rubenwardy> weird to have more features over a bridge
19:09 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Is Jones Pickleton the creator of i3?
19:09 MTDiscord <luatic> muurkha: if you look at his GH profile (https://github.com/kilbith/), you will find that male pronouns are likely safe to use
19:10 ROllerozxa I guess it makes sense considering bots have the ability to use some more markdown features, though I thought it only was possible within embeds
19:10 MTDiscord <luatic> rubenwardy: yeah, it only works if bots / webhooks do it 🙃
19:12 muurkha definitelya_: is there a mod for peace, sunshine, and rainbows?
19:12 definitelya_ Nyan cat maybe?
19:12 muurkha the irc-discord bridge is just displaying the raw Markdown, which is fine
19:13 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Sunshine is builtin, nyancats provide rainbows ... for peace, you might be on your own.
19:13 sfan5 rubenwardy: actually, does the DMCA "if you gain knowledge of it" only apply to the copyright holder complaining or in general?
19:13 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> KILBITH why u no change the sounds, please I beg of you
19:13 FavoritoHJS peace would mean no hostile mobs which... oh look, mtg doesn't include any mobs by default
19:13 rubenwardy sfan5: there's a precedure for the copyright holder complaining, but there's also a section about "gaining actual knowledge"
19:13 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Ahem, fireflies
19:14 FavoritoHJS not mobs, just nodes, you can even punch them (punching not recommended for the firefly/butterfly)
19:15 rubenwardy See C here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/512
19:15 rubenwardy the bit I quote is separate to the bit about DMCA notices
19:15 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> If a node moves around, does that make it a mob? I mean, the only difference is the amount of precision the intelligence is using to move around the environment
19:16 MTDiscord <luatic> There have been node-based "mobs" such as nc_snakes already.
19:16 MTDiscord <luatic> It works, but it just isn't quite as smooth as you probably want it to be.
19:17 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Of course not, it's a node
19:19 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> What would Richard Stallman think of 🤮 proprietary 🤮 audio 🤮 bytes 🤮
19:20 muurkha He's probably written an essay about this on the FSF website
19:20 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> He's writing it as we speak 😔
19:21 kilbith legit question: what would happen to Mona Lisa if was "forked"?
19:21 kilbith *if it
19:21 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Someone would throw paint on the original and make it an nft
19:21 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Nah, I think you have to burn it to make it a proper NFT.
19:22 kilbith Mona Lisa would be banged up
19:22 rubenwardy if it were forkable then there would be multiple copies of it, the original would be the same and still in the Louvre
19:22 MTDiscord <Warr1024> (C) only applies for life of the author plus some time, which has probably passed already for the Mona Lisa, so recreating the image may be fair game.  Well, in the USA, it would be considered "public domain", but I don't know what it would be in countries that don't have one of those.
19:23 rubenwardy the Mono Lisa is out of copyright as well... yeah exactly, you can already fork the mona lisa and make derivatives
19:23 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The image of the Mona Lisa would be copyrightable, whereas the actual original Mona Lisa would be moot because even today the technology to copy the actual canvas doesn't exist.
19:23 kilbith except that you put the original at the door and let forks go into the Louvre.
19:24 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If the original were, say, radioactive, then yeah, I'd probably keep that in a vault in the basement and put a copy on display instead.
19:24 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> So all kilbith has to do is put those audio files in the louvre for 200 years and he can use them without worry?
19:25 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If, say, the Louvre didn't actually HAVE the Mona Lisa because it was actually owned by, say, the creators of Factorio, then it wouldn't be a question of whether the Louvre allows it inside or not.
19:26 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If somebody stole it and then hung it inside the Louvre, I'm sure the cops would totally just leave it there after they heard the curators' "well WE didn't do it" excuse.
19:26 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> That's the best reasoning I've ever heard
19:27 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Nah, it's not exactly 200 years.  It's like, the creator's life plus 70 or something?  Or was it 130 now?
19:27 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Basically "creator's life plus however long Walt Disney has been dead"
19:28 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I don't disagree that this whole song and dance is pretty stupid, either, it's just not our call whether we're required to do it or not.
19:29 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> https://tenor.com/view/dancing-dog-gif-13304250
19:30 muurkha the Mona Lisa has been forked thousands of times
19:30 muurkha there's a Wikipedia article about forks of the Mona Lisa in fact: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mona_Lisa_replicas_and_reinterpretations
19:31 kilbith all quality forks!
19:31 kilbith /s
19:31 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Monard lizard is currently on the domain of publicity though
19:32 muurkha fortunately in 16th-century Italy there was no copyright law, so people started forking it immediately
19:33 muurkha this is apparently the oldest known fork: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mona_Lisa_replicas_and_reinterpretations#/media/File:Gioconda_%28copia_del_Museo_del_Prado_restaurada%29.jpg
19:35 muurkha by Leonardo's own apprentice
19:36 muurkha apparently it was painted while the original was being painted, making it really a fork and not just a version
19:41 muurkha there's a category in Wikimedia Commons with 150 files and 6 subcategories: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Derivative_works_of_Mona_Lisa
19:44 muurkha of hundreds of forks of the Mona Lisa
19:46 muurkha 156 + 31 + 20 + 11 + 14 + 2 + 3 + 14 + 12 + 16 + 38 + 29 + 5 + 16 + 3 + 6 + 33 forks of the Mona Lisa, I think, although surely there are many more that have not been uploaded to Commons
19:46 muurkha 409 forks in total
20:00 appguru joined #minetest
20:07 Fixer joined #minetest
20:19 independent56 joined #minetest
20:20 independent56 Can i use FreeCAD for models as it is what i feel most comfortable using?
20:21 independent56 Like, i find Blender difficult and too free. I like Freecad as it gives me fine control over each piece without worryign about touching wrong things
20:22 MTDiscord <Warr1024> You should be able to as long as you can export them to a format that MT can use.
20:23 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Also fistbump, unexpected fellow FreeCAD user (though seemingly not for the same purpose)
20:23 duds` joined #minetest
20:26 muurkha yeah, you can
20:28 independent56 Yeah, i use OJB files as output
20:28 independent56 They're human reaable
20:29 independent56 I like freecad as you have to specify the exact locations of things instead of dragging them around. It's more better.
20:30 muurkha it's helpful if you include the FreeCAD file in the mod source code though
20:30 muurkha it helps people mod the mod
20:32 muurkha CC-BY-SA doesn't require this, but if you license the mesh under the GPL, the GPL does require it.  but the GPL also arguably requires you to include the full source code of FreeCAD in that case, so it's probably better to just use CC-BY-SA or CC-BY or CC0 for the media
20:33 independent56 Yeah, i will do that
20:36 independent56 Here are the rough designs i made: https://i.imgur.com/LI9USpE.png
20:36 independent56 They;re very messy and can't wait to be converted
20:37 independent56 I've decided to go for creating many seperate modules and having a small little file tell a python script how to mix the files together
20:37 independent56 Something like mastbase+ladder for putting mastbase.obj and ladder.obj together
20:37 independent56 Merging works, but i haven't tested rotating using stuff like wire*r or wire*90
20:37 muurkha neat, I imagine that's easy to do in FreeCAD?
20:38 independent56 Yeah, they're ok
20:38 independent56 I can make a light cover by subtracting a cylynder, a smaller cykynder, and a cuboid
20:42 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Supposedly Blender experts can get comparable precision to FreeCAD and can even do useful CAD-type work in it ... but yeah, the learning curve for FreeCAD was bad enough, but Blender's is even harsher.
20:43 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I use FreeCAD pretty extensively for my 3D printing stuff.
20:45 FavoritoHJS joined #minetest
20:45 muurkha oh, of course you can do anything in Blender you can do in FreeCAD
20:45 muurkha but there are things that are a lot easier to do in FreeCAD
20:46 muurkha (*you* obviously know this since you use it)
20:47 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I've learned blender like 2 or 3 times now and I STILL don't know how to use it.  I learned FreeCAD once, and there has yet to be a version update that's broken that.
20:48 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Granted, about 40% of what I know about FreeCAD is how to avoid all the stupid crashes and stuff caused by me using cheap shortcuts instead of drafting things out "properly" but 🤷
20:49 muurkha heh, yeah, I've found it a bit unstable
20:54 independent56 I still don't know what each of the workspaces do because "part" is good enough
20:55 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Draft has Modification -> Array tools which I get a ton of value out of ... but yeah, Part is where I spend like 90% of my time too 😄
21:02 independent56_ joined #minetest
21:35 est31 joined #minetest
21:37 qur joined #minetest
22:15 proller joined #minetest
22:26 qur joined #minetest
22:32 est31 joined #minetest
22:36 Fixer joined #minetest
23:08 kilbith https://github.com/minetest-mods/i3/commit/5d4f9b47
23:08 qur joined #minetest
23:10 fluxionary joined #minetest
23:47 FavoritoHJS joined #minetest

| Channels | #minetest index | Today | | Google Search | Plaintext