Time Nick Message 04:47 lissobone Question two. 04:48 lissobone How do I deal with "invalid minetest.after invocation"? 04:48 lissobone It occurs when the function passed as an argunent is declared before the invocation. 04:48 lissobone Argument*. 04:51 lissobone What is math.huge? 04:51 lissobone Is it something actually huge? 04:54 lissobone I somehow fixed it. Seems that it has something to do with scope. 05:51 lissobone I have released the first version. 09:08 MTDiscord lissobone: There are no function declarations in Lua. A declared but uninitialized variable will be nil. Thus, when you do local var; minetest.after(42, var); var = function() ... end, you're passing nil rather than the function to minetest.after. You have to initialize the variable with the function as a value before you can use it. 09:09 MTDiscord math.huge is Lua's way of expressing the special number (double) value +Inf, a value that results e.g. from 42/0 (division of a positive number by zero) as zero is assumed to be an infinitesimally small number in this case. +Inf compares greater than every other number value except for itself (it compares equal to itself) and "not a number" (NaN). 09:43 lissobone Well, I did initialize it. 09:43 lissobone I fixed it, though. 09:43 lissobone I declared a local table, and declared my functions inside that table. 10:12 lissobone I mean, I initialized the value. 10:13 lissobone The functions were initialized in the very beginning. 10:15 lissobone There were 2 funcitons, and in each one there was a minetest.after, which pointed at a different funciton. 10:15 lissobone Basically, f1 -> f2, f2 -> f1. 11:00 MTDiscord so local function f1() minetest.after(42, f2) end; local function f2() minetest.after(33, f1) end? This won't work because at the time f1 is declared, the local variable f2 is not in scope; thus, the "global" variable f1 is accessed instead. To make mutual recursion work, either use (1) an API table, of which the implicit API table _G is a special case, or (2) more efficient and explicit "late binding": Use a forward declaration local f2; 11:00 MTDiscord local function f1() minetest.after(42, f2) end; function f2() minetest.after(33, f1) end. Note that the definition of f2 now doeesn't use the local keyword anymore, since f2 has already been declared as local. 11:13 kilbith I'd like to inform you that the i3 mod is threatened with delisting and may no longer exist on ContentDB. it could sign the death warrant of this project. 11:13 kilbith https://content.minetest.net/threads/4118/ 11:14 lissobone WHAT 11:14 lissobone The page cannot be displayed. 11:15 kilbith https://i.imgur.com/4nDL61G.png 11:16 MTDiscord for fuck's sake kilbith 11:19 lissobone I've got an insane idea. 11:19 lissobone Hear me out 11:20 sfan5 well, what is the official CDB policy for addressing problematic licensing? 11:23 lissobone OK, I have read the unified inventory license from that screenshot. 11:23 MTDiscord sfan5: generally we take down packages with copyrighted content immediately when we are made aware of it. however, in the case of i3 we decided to reach out privately to resolve it without having to take down the package 11:24 lissobone What is the GNU Library GPL? Didn't GNU choose a different name for it (Lesser GPL)? 11:24 MTDiscord library GPL is the older license for it I think? 11:24 lissobone So, it's LGPL? 11:24 MTDiscord license, I mean name 11:24 MTDiscord yeah 11:25 lissobone The older name? I recall something from gnu.org about the history of LGPL. 11:25 kilbith let's see what they do for Unified Inventory 11:25 lissobone It mentioned that they had to rename the license, since "Library" would imply that it's supposed to be applied to libraries. 11:26 kilbith the community will be well aware of everything going on there 11:26 lissobone Alright, it's LGPL. So, what's the issue? Were the sounds redistributed under a permissive license? 11:26 kilbith no, it's not 11:27 lissobone Alright. 11:27 lissobone I'm (quite) confused, as usual. 11:29 lissobone Oh, so there's no license whatsoever? 11:30 kilbith I have to highlight a bit of context 11:31 lissobone Yea? 11:31 kilbith 3 days ago, luk3yx (contributor of Unified Inventory) asked me out on IRC publicly about licensing: https://irc.minetest.net/minetest/2023-01-07#i_6045486 11:32 kilbith it comes with no surprise that today I am pilloried on CDB 11:32 kilbith it's a strategic move from the Unified Inventory crew 11:32 lissobone I see my messages there! 11:32 lissobone Greetings. 11:32 lissobone My favorite word. 11:32 lissobone And also your messages. 11:33 lissobone Regarding the i3_cannot.ogg sound effect. 11:34 lissobone I don't see any other messages related to you or i3, though. 11:45 sfan5 ROllerozxa: this is just an informal standard and not a written policy is it? 11:52 rubenwardy Here's my response. i3 currently has Factorio sounds and ContentDB is legally required to remove access to copyright infringing packages when we are made aware: https://rwdy.uk/jElJL.png 11:54 rubenwardy sfan5: slightly outdated as it doesn't mention the notice period but https://content.minetest.net/help/copyright/#what-does-contentdb-do 11:55 kilbith hope Unified Inventory is going to the exact same process 11:55 kilbith 2 days deadline and all 11:56 kilbith otherwise this will badly reflect onto CDB 12:01 kilbith I should again add a bit of anecdotical context: luk3yx is a permanent worker of MultiCraft since years, they always have been in rivalry with me to get the more hours of work 12:04 sfan5 rubenwardy: look good 12:06 sfan5 in any case the potential conflict of interest isn't more than an interesting factoid, given that the copyright issue is genuine 12:07 kilbith I recognize the copyright issue and I won't be lying about it 12:08 kilbith I stole some assets and I don't know how to properly fix that in about 2 days 12:08 kilbith given that I have a job 12:32 kilbith I could ask the explicit permission from the Factorio team to use their sounds, though 12:32 rubenwardy see https://content.minetest.net/help/copyright/#i-have-permission-from-the-author for that 12:32 kilbith it's that, or nothing, there'll be no compromise with lower quality sounds 12:46 kilbith good point: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=420434#p420434 12:48 kilbith there will be no double standards 12:51 celeron55 it seems quite bichy to complain about your project getting threats inside the community when you (with others) are putting the entire MT content ecosystem in risk of threats from actual lawyers from actual companies 12:51 kilbith the Minecraft ecosystem has been long well living with stolen assets 12:52 celeron55 just replace the sounds with bad sounds. if you don't have time, someone will come up with better ones in due time and contribute them 12:53 celeron55 the MC ecosystem is not used, and is not usable by organizations such as schools, because of things like that. The MT ecosystem is, because it takes copyright seriously 12:54 celeron55 taking laws seriously gives value to the project 12:54 kilbith why did RBA never got a threat then, in years 12:54 rubenwardy also, hosts like Steam Workshop and Nexus mods will be following copyright law as well, they just don't require open licenses 12:54 kilbith explain me 12:55 kilbith s/got/get 12:55 celeron55 well, obviously things go unnoticed until somebody notices 12:58 celeron55 i'll rephrase this: MT itself can exist with stolen assets, but the userbase of MT and the distribution channels will be limited if it uses stolen assets. it's the difference between a grey area hobby project vs. a real project anyone and any organization can use and distribute. in this sense, MT's goal is to be a real project 12:59 MTDiscord sorry to interrupt, thought time could be better spend looking for replacements sounds killbith just a few suggestions i3_click.ogg https://freesound.org/people/Ranner/sounds/487452/ i3_cannot.ogg https://freesound.org/people/unfa/sounds/565133/ i3_craft.ogg https://freesound.org/people/cookies+policy/sounds/556630/ i3_tab.ogg https://freesound.org/people/moogy73/sounds/425728/ 13:00 celeron55 and, of course it cannot be proven MT and its ecosystem doesn't use stolen assets. However we can prove we react according to the law when stolen assets are found, and that will be enough for organizations with lawyers to accept MT 13:01 lissobone Permanent worker of MultiCraft? 13:02 lissobone Sounds tragic. 13:02 kilbith no sorry I don't want your shitty assets from broken, undertalented artists 13:02 kilbith I have higher standards than that 13:02 lissobone Also, maybe ask me to make sounds? 13:02 lissobone I've got some experience with making sound effects for my mods. 13:04 celeron55 i'd say go ahead and do it, those replcament sounds will be useful for many 13:04 celeron55 replacement* 13:04 celeron55 i don't understand why kilbith is so proud about his stolen assets 13:04 kilbith all of you here wouldn't be able to make it something on-par with what a professional team of artists from a commercial game can do 13:05 celeron55 it's like i stole a ferrari and drove around it with a big grin, thinking I'm the greatest 13:05 celeron55 in it* 13:05 MTDiscord killbith: nice way to say ty to someone that tried to help but well go on keep whining and waste time 13:06 lissobone I bombed an orphanage and walked away with a sad grin, thinking I didn't do well enough. 13:06 lissobone I can make those sounds right now, I just need to know what they have to be like. 13:07 celeron55 i guess just download i3 and check the existing sounds and their purpose 13:08 lissobone Ok. 13:08 lissobone Hold up. 13:09 lissobone [In order to continue, enter] TOMATO JUICE. 13:09 celeron55 https://github.com/minetest-mods/i3/tree/main/sounds 13:09 celeron55 do we have the definitive list of stolen sounds, as not all of those are? 13:10 lissobone Viewing... 13:10 rubenwardy i3_cannot.ogg, i3_click.ogg, i3_craft.ogg, i3_tab.ogg 13:10 lissobone This doesn't look like a lot of sounds. 13:11 lissobone Ok, analyzing those... 13:12 celeron55 if kilbith is dropping i3 just because of 4 sounds, that sounds like he was looking for a reason to drop it anyway 13:13 kilbith I don't have any intent to "drop" it, CDB will sentence it 13:13 celeron55 is multicraft also using those sounds? 13:14 lissobone So, shall I just remake those sounds and release the new ones under a free license like CC-BY-SA 4.0 or CC0? 13:15 celeron55 yes. i don't think there's much more you can do 13:16 celeron55 then you'll have to hope having the sounds floating around will help solve the issue in one way or another 13:16 lissobone Well, I can also commit extra [Crimes] [Completely free of chrage!]. 13:18 rubenwardy you could make a release without the sounds and then add sounds later when you have more time 13:22 kilbith I could also say that celeron55 has a personal issue with me anyway 13:24 sfan5 you could say a lot more, none of which is relevant to the issue at hand 13:26 lissobone Personal issue? 13:28 lissobone Once I'm finished with the sounds, I'll host them on my web server (you'll get the link). 13:35 MTDiscord Note that if anyone else has any other non-foss-pedigree assets out there, it may take a while, but it's only a matter of time before someone notices, reports it, and then CDB is forced to take this kind of action. 13:36 MTDiscord It's best to get ahead of this while you have the luxury of taking the time to do it right. 13:37 kilbith to put things in perspective so everybody realize: i3 gets circa. 10K downloads per month; it is in the same order of magnitude than the Minetest client itself. 13:37 MTDiscord Yes, that makes this a pretty serious case of infringement. 14:00 FavoritoHJS managed to id the following sounds: 14:00 FavoritoHJS dingdong.ogg: Metadata says it's from Sony Sound Forge 8.0. I can only hope the sound licensing allows relicensing... 14:00 FavoritoHJS teleport.ogg: Metadata says it's from FL Studio 9.0. I can only hope the sound licensing allows relicensing... 14:00 FavoritoHJS so rest in peace technic craftguide i guess 14:02 MTDiscord If those metadata IDs are identifying sound libraries/collections, then yes, it may indicate that they're (C) by somebody and a license from them that allows this use is required. If those are tools/editors, then (C) does not apply merely from using a tool, it's still the original work of the person operating the tool, unless the tool is mixing in something copyrightable as part of the process. 14:03 MTDiscord If those tools have some kind of "everything you make with this tool is owned by us" kind of EULA thing, then that may be enough that we have to treat it as valid and reject it from CDB anyway ... but I'd really hope somebody would fight that in court and invalidate it because that sounds like some real bullshit. 14:04 MTDiscord Like on par with dentists making patients sign forms that preemptively reassign copyright to all reviews to the dentist so that they can DMCA takedown the negative reviews. 14:05 kilbith I've reported the technic mod, it also doesn't have licenses for (most of) their sounds 14:05 MTDiscord Yep, let the Audit Wars continue, I guess 🤷 14:06 lissobone Why not just tell the authors to either license their sounds or find free ones instead of reporting? 14:06 kilbith the community will be able to observe if there will be a double-standard, or not. 14:06 kilbith I swear that 14:07 FavoritoHJS oh you meant literally the report button 14:07 FavoritoHJS the one that allows only the staff to see the report 14:08 MTDiscord It's all about the same to us in CDB. Once we become aware there's a problem we're basically required to act. It doesn't matter very much how it reaches us. If you feel like cutting the author some slack, you can contact them privately outside CDB, but you have no obligation to, and it'd still be your responsibility to report it eventually if that author ghosted you anyway. 14:08 kilbith https://content.minetest.net/threads/4123/ 14:09 FavoritoHJS with these mods i'm unsure how it will be done, especially technic considering the author is kinda dead 14:09 lissobone 11 seconds ago? 14:09 FavoritoHJS maybe a redirect to technic-plus? 14:09 MTDiscord technic is under minetest-mods iirc, it's still maintained 14:09 rubenwardy the technic author is very much dead 14:10 lissobone In what sense dead? 14:10 rubenwardy he died in 2016 14:10 lissobone Like, on CWHAT 14:10 MTDiscord mt-mods' technic is maintained 14:10 lissobone Wait, I recall something. 14:10 lissobone Hold up. 14:11 FavoritoHJS oh, i'd have sworn the mod hasn't been maintaned since her death but it's mt-mods propery now 14:11 FavoritoHJS despite the author being rba and not mt-mods... 14:11 lissobone Propery? 14:11 rubenwardy his, and RealBadAngel 14:11 lissobone It's free software. 14:11 MTDiscord note: minetest-mods and mt-mods isn't the same 14:11 lissobone Everyone is an owner of thier own copy. 14:12 rubenwardy also, worth noting there's a difference between unclear copyright and copyright infringement - unclear copyright is against CDB's rules but not necessarily against copyright law 14:12 kilbith missing license means /de facto/ proprietary 14:13 kilbith and here's starts the double-standard I guess? 14:13 rubenwardy proprietary isn't illegal - but is against CDB's rules 14:13 FavoritoHJS but what if it originally had a license but the license got lost along the way... 14:14 rubenwardy Anyway, I have contacted UI's maintainer and will contact Technic's as soon as I work out who that is 14:14 rubenwardy rather not need an ouija board 14:14 rubenwardy from the commit log, appears to be Krock 14:15 kilbith so to sum it all: I /demand/ that Unified Inventory (+ all games/mods packaging it) and Technic (+ all games packaging) go to the same audit than i3. 14:15 kilbith immediately and with the same deadline. 14:15 ROllerozxa kilbith: and that is what's happening, right now 14:15 MTDiscord Dunno who you're demanding it of, but if you want to make sure it happens, do it yourself. 14:15 kilbith thanks 14:15 FavoritoHJS guess you'll have to contact both mt-mods and minetest-mods since they both have a technic thing 14:16 FavoritoHJS the official technic mod is by minetest-mods though 14:16 MTDiscord Anyone can find misused or unlicensed assets, code, whatever, and report them. 14:16 MTDiscord I dunno how various people feel about this, and I understand there's some pain/annoyance at least, but in the long run, I think the cleansing fire of a license audit is something to be welcomed. 14:17 MTDiscord The work of people who care about the quality of the work they do, including licensing, is devalued by other people getting away with corner cutting. 14:18 FavoritoHJS also is it just me or is kb's behaviour kinda odd? like he immediately assumed that we're treating him differently when it more than likely was just a delay 14:20 kilbith I've a lot of people who want to put a spoke in my wheels, out of jealousy 14:20 lissobone Stalin moment. 14:20 ROllerozxa jealousy? 14:21 MTDiscord Odd is not how I would describe it. Actually, the whole "I'm being singled out" response has become the de facto standard for suddenly finding out that the laws still apply to you, no matter how many downloads you have. 14:21 GNUHacker how can I edit my world_dir/world.sqlite in my remote server via ssh? 14:22 MTDiscord sqlite3 command line tool? 14:22 ROllerozxa GNUHacker: sqlite CLI? 14:22 rubenwardy If you meant map.sqlite, then the easiest way is by running a minetest server 14:22 rubenwardy If you meant world.mt then nano or vim 14:22 Desour if all you want to do is edit the file, `$ echo cat > world_dir/world.sqlite` does also work 14:22 lissobone GNUHacker: you can edit your files via SSH the same way you would do so right at your computer through the terminal. 14:24 lissobone Ok, I have finished the click sound effect. 14:24 MTDiscord Unless "edit" means "delete specific mapblocks" you're probably not going to have a good time doing this, because MT's map files are largely opaquely encoded to somebody using generic database tools. 14:24 lissobone Hope it fits with the overall theme. 14:24 FavoritoHJS hmm, is there an mcedit-like editor for mt worlds? 14:24 lissobone There are editors for sqlite3, I think. 14:25 lissobone Python sqlite3 module? 14:25 ROllerozxa yeah in a sqlite editor all the map will look like are blobs and indexed mapblock positions 14:25 lissobone Might be useful. 14:25 MTDiscord The most popular editor I know of for MT worlds is MT. 14:26 lissobone But he wants to edit them via SSH. 14:26 lissobone Maybe run a graphical server via ssh? 14:26 MTDiscord In theory you can decode the map format (it's documented) and manually hack on it, but that's probably a lot of programming work. 14:26 MinetestBot 02[git] 04TurkeyMcMac -> 03minetest/minetest: Error when string.split is given empty separator (#13132) 13ab1fe80 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/ab1fe80150a8031fb702b9ff776db2db4dea89a4 (152023-01-10T14:25:48Z) 14:27 MTDiscord Your best bet is to just transfer the map over ssh, run MT with a possibly modified version of the game/mods (e.g. disabling ABMs, timers, and other things that would make unrelated changes while you're editing), make your changes in-game, then transfer the map back. 14:27 Desour you can also start a minetest server and then connect to it from your local pc 14:28 ROllerozxa mount the server with SSHFS and run a server locally using the remote files 🙃 14:29 lissobone Edit the server in binary form remotely using GNU Emacs, since it supports editing remote files. 14:29 MTDiscord I added a /stasis command/feature to NodeCore that basically disables every "world evolving on its own over time" type of process except for liquid transform. It turned out that there were a handful of types of hooks I needed to do this in (globalsteps, ABMs, LBMs, entity on_step, etc). In principle that kind of thing could be done to other games as well, using a code editor to look for patterns (I don't think it would be as easy to 14:29 MTDiscord encapsulate it into a mod but MAYBE). That would allow you to just slap in WorldEdit and then edit in peace in-engine. 14:29 lissobone Or run minetest in Emacs. 14:30 MTDiscord Roller: I was on the cusp of suggesting SSHFS, but really "run the MT server over there" is still a better option. We don't know how bad the performance OR safety impacts would be of SSHFS on sqlite or MT. 14:30 Desour lissobone: just out of interest (I've never attempted to create sound effects), what tools are you using to create your sound effects / what is your workflow, is it easy? 14:32 sfan5 somewhat related cool thing https://sfxr.me/ 14:33 lissobone My workflow: assemble tomato juice using tomato paste and fresh mountain water; start up my computer (it is usually already running, since I never turn it off); think of a sound effect; record audio of some household good; edit the sound it produces; the sound effect is ready. 14:33 lissobone Step 8: disassemble tomato juice. 14:33 Desour xD 14:33 MTDiscord disassemble tomato juice into constituent amino acids using digestive enzymes 14:33 lissobone I don't usually edit the effects heavily, just come cropping and noise reduction. 14:34 lissobone I use ffmpeg for editing. 14:34 FavoritoHJS if in doubt, fm synthesis 14:34 lissobone Hold up, my family needs to borrow my computer to watch a movie. 14:35 Desour thx lissobone ^^ 14:38 Desour sfan5: indeed cool 14:38 MTDiscord Personally, I'm a fan of foley art as a basis: a microphone and some objects you find around you. Sometimes heavy editing is needed to get the effect you're looking for, sometimes just a little cropping. 14:39 MTDiscord The whole PSG or FM thing would be cool if MT could adopt that as a standard ... the fact that it doesn't actually seems a bit weird, and is probably why a handful of sounds take up much more download space than a ton of textures. We use these tiny low-res textures but high-def sounds, and that seems unbalanced. 14:40 MTDiscord Turning a few bytes of FM synth instructions into megabytes of vorbis also seems pretty wasteful, but we would bikeshed eternally about adding an FM synth into MT. 14:42 Desour FM synth would probably come with tracker music support, no? 14:42 Desour (which is planned iirc) 14:42 MTDiscord libopenmpt in minetest would be awesome 14:42 MTDiscord there's an issue for it but it's kinda been hijacked by people who want MIDI support 14:43 MTDiscord Tracker is not exactly FM, but yeah, it's much closer. 14:45 MTDiscord Tracker is a bit more flexible, and a bit more costly, so it seems like a decent compromise. If we supported vorbis and MIDI then I'd think tracker would be a good thing to cover in the gap between. 14:45 FavoritoHJS i think you could fake it right now with some sound shenanigans 14:45 MTDiscord I'm not super invested in one side of the fight or another, but having a non-why-the-hell-is-it-taking-so-long-to-download experience for games with music would be really nice. 14:46 muurkha tracker music normally uses wavetable synthesis; I don't know if any trackers support FM 14:46 MTDiscord well being able to send music as dynamic media without the client freezing would be a nice alternative to that 14:46 FavoritoHJS simple sound for attack and decay, looping sound for sustain 14:46 MTDiscord You can fake it, and I actually do in Klots right now. However, multiplayer puts a pretty tight upper bound on the tempo of music if you want to be able to avoid network timing jitter from ruining your music. 14:47 FavoritoHJS openmpt supports a limited subset of opl3 (only 2 channels) 14:47 muurkha difficulty with tracker music is that you kind of have to build the sound in the tracker; you can't compress some arbitrary sound into tracker music 14:47 muurkha something like Opus (successor to Vorbis) might be a better option for stuff like sound effects 14:48 FavoritoHJS also might be Good Enough:tm: for music, I suspect 32k would be acceptable enough 14:48 muurkha 32 kilosamples per second? 14:48 FavoritoHJS 32 kbits 14:48 MTDiscord MT can't do everything a tracker can do. You've basically only got like 2 or 3 effects in MT (New Note, Note Cut, and Note Fade). You also have to stream the music from the server, and there's no timing metadata, so notes are played on a "next client tick after the packets arrive" basis, which is probably unacceptable for a lot of different kinds of music. 14:49 muurkha probably with Opus it would usually be plenty 14:49 FavoritoHJS it won't sound too good but then again it's background music 14:49 FavoritoHJS iirc opus is always 48khz unless specified otherwise 14:49 muurkha you mean 48 kilosamples per second? 14:49 MTDiscord I'd love to see Opus added; I don't see the point in supporting Vorbis but not Opus. But it wouldn't really be sufficient for music. There just wasn't that much room to compress beyond Vorbis anyway, so we're talking like a 5% to 10% improvement at best anyway. 14:49 muurkha Warr1024: if you have so few effects you'll have to write your own tracker 14:49 FavoritoHJS this time yes 14:50 FavoritoHJS can clientside mods play sounds? if so, at least that would help minimize jitter issues 14:50 FavoritoHJS but then if you have a low framerate there will be jitter anyways 14:50 FavoritoHJS ahh, my kingdom for fixed tickrates 14:50 Desour for opus (and also flac, heh) support we could maybe use libsndfile (depended by libopenmpt anyway) 14:50 muurkha you can avoid jitter in the audio even with a low framerate (and doing so is important) 14:50 MTDiscord CSMs have their own set of problems, and frankly the process needed to setup a CSM is probably bad enough that it's not worth it just for music... 14:51 Guest6645 Hello, got a quick question (didn't found any anserw for this). Do I need ENABLE_GLES=ON and ENABLE_SOUND=ON flash when I build server? 14:51 FavoritoHJS i don't think so if you want to only build a server 14:51 MTDiscord _SOUND and _GLES won't matter for a server binary 14:51 FavoritoHJS building a client without those flags will make it opengl only and disable sound 14:53 Guest6645 thats I suspected, great thanks 14:55 Guest6645 oh i forgot about somthing else, when I;m building server binary and run cmake i have this warrning 14:55 Guest6645 CMake Warning: 14:55 Guest6645 Manually-specified variables were not used by the project: 14:55 Guest6645 IRRLICHT_INCLUDE_DIR 14:55 Guest6645 cmake command looks like this: cmake . -DRUN_IN_PLACE=TRUE -DBUILD_SERVER=TRUE -DBUILD_CLIENT=FALSE -DIRRLICHT_INCLUDE_DIR=./lib/irrlichtmt/include -DENABLE_GLES=OFF -DENABLE_POSTGRESQL=OFF -DENABLE_REDIS=OFF -DENABLE_SOUND=OFF 14:55 FavoritoHJS i imagine that's because irrlicht isn't included in a server binary 14:56 FavoritoHJS that library is used for rendering, and since a server doesn't render 14:56 MTDiscord Minetestserver only requires irrlichtmt headers 14:56 Desour > IRRLICHT_INCLUDE_DIR - Directory that contains IrrCompileConfig.h (usable for server build only) 14:56 Desour ^ from README 14:57 MTDiscord btw if you put irrlichtmt into lib/irrlichtmt like usual it will be able to automatically use the headers from there, just like with the client 14:57 Guest6645 yea I've read README but I missunderstand it :/ 14:58 Guest6645 I clone irrlichtmt in same folder where minetest is 14:58 Desour (I don't understand it either, my msg was just to correct FavoritoHJS ) 14:59 Guest6645 :( 14:59 FavoritoHJS oh. I imagine that's to at least define noop functions 14:59 Guest6645 well so this warrning is ok and I DIRRLICHT_INCLUDE_DIR=./lib/irrlichtmt/include is needed for bare metal server binary or not 15:00 MTDiscord Servers require IrrlichtMT as well, even though they don't render anything, because MT uses some of Irrlicht's data structures internally. 15:03 Desour Guest6645: are you getting "Using user-provided IrrlichtMt at subdirectory 'lib/irrlichtmt" ? if so, and if I read the cmake correctly, then the include dir variable is ignored / not used because lib/irrlichtmt exists 15:03 MTDiscord that sounds correct 15:03 MTDiscord so basically, if you're able to build the server you shouldn't worry 15:04 MTDiscord kilbith: Stop slandering Unified Inventory contributors including luk3yx just because you violated copyright. Trying to "blackmail" the CDB staff by reporting other mods or threatening to cease your contributions is also completely irrelevant to the issue at play; it doesn't affect the legal obligations in the slightest. The fact that luk3yx contributed to MultiCraft is just as irrelevant. 15:04 MTDiscord If this will cause the most popular mod and the second most popular inventory mod to be taken down, so be it. 15:05 Guest6645 Desour Im cloning repos from git README 15:05 Guest6645 just copy paste so yea i have it in ~/minetest/lib/irrlichtmt 15:06 Guest6645 i managed build server and created package everything works, I'm just curious if this warrning is something I need to worry about or mine cmake command looks ok 15:06 Desour as roller said, if it builds, it's all fine I guess ^^ 15:06 Guest6645 :D 15:07 Desour you can probably just remove the -DIRRLICHT_INCLUDE_DIR=./lib/irrlichtmt/include to avoid the warning 15:08 Guest6645 I see, ok thank you very much. 15:08 Guest6645 (y) 15:08 kilbith well fuck you luatic, I didn't ask for your opinion; don't assume malice when it's just making sure there's no double-standard and highlighing CoI is also an healthy thing 15:09 kilbith now go do your school' homeworks 15:09 kilbith and stop pissing me off for once 15:17 kilbith there are two kinds of people: the ones who do things that benefit to a large amount of people, and the ones who only /comment/ what the formers do; you belong to the second category 15:19 MTDiscord thank you to the people keeping cdb running for everyone 15:26 Desour ok, it's time for some pessimism. I've tried to use data from my yet most durable PR to extrapolate a realistic worst case scenario for my sound PR to be merged, assuming review time is directly proportional to added plus removed lines. it should be merged by may 2128 15:26 rubenwardy haha 15:26 rubenwardy how are you estimating that? Number of lines? 15:26 rubenwardy That sound PR is very appetising, just looks a bit filling 15:27 Desour added removed and added lines 15:28 Desour (to be fair, the PR I've based this on wasn't reviewable from the start, so maybe the merge will happen in this century) 15:30 rubenwardy that would be ideal 15:31 Desour (anyway, don't feel too pressed by this to do a review soon. I currently don't have too much time to fix review issues anyway) 16:21 lissobone Greetings. 16:57 MTDiscord kilbith: Two wrongs don't make a right. Other popular mods skimping on their licensing doesn't make it any more legal if you do it (and BTW I strongly suspect that the mods you are reporting might in fact even be using free sounds which were just not attributed properly, while you are clearly redistributing commercial sounds, possibly even knowing very well where they came from and that their redistribution is not permitted). BTW, please 16:57 MTDiscord stop lashing out at everybody. 16:58 MTDiscord lashing out at everybody seems to be his coping mechanism 16:58 MTDiscord You're committing to the logical "taking it to the extremes" fallacy here. Replacing these sounds with lower quality free ones would hardly negatively affect the overall i3 user experience. 17:06 lissobone Maybe stop attacking him? 17:07 lissobone I'm already half-way on finishing the sounds. 17:08 Warr1024 Maybe, yeah. Or maybe what comes around goes around, and when your response to getting called out on a mistake is to lash out at the people pointing it out, and trying to vilify the rest of the world, you bring this kind of thing on yourself. 17:08 Warr1024 lissobone, we do appreciate that you're working to actually *fix the problem*, but note how the criticism is also not directed at you either. 17:09 Warr1024 i.e. as much as anybody wants to make this bug report into a personal vendetta, simply a bug report it will remain. 17:10 lissobone I'm just worried that he's getting too much criticism. 17:13 lissobone I have just disposed of chemical waste. 17:22 lissobone Greetings. 17:22 Warr1024 tbh not all of the criticism is specifically about him or about this incident, but is also part of a general discussion about community standards. 17:23 Warr1024 We are at this sort of weird intersection of a FOSS project that cares very much about legally-enforceable user freedom, and a game modding community that's also used to having to cut some legal corners and rely on forbearance of copyright holders, and that causes culture clashes. 17:23 Warr1024 A lot of people come from like the MC modding community and their misunderstandings or disagreements about licensing aren't so much in the "how" of it but more fundamentally in the "why" of it. 17:25 Warr1024 It can be a bit of a culture shock when you're used to dealing with licenses on a "well, it's not quite right, but it's not all that important anyway" kind of basis and then suddenly small licensing hiccups become absolute show-stoppers. 17:25 Warr1024 You don't even need to be new to the community either; you just have to be new to having somebody actually file a report on something you did. 17:29 Warr1024 If we had things like a legal team that could negotiate with rightsholders for takedown processes that didn't expose volunteers to liability, or if we had things like corporate shields that limited the liability of individual volunteer operators, then we might be able to be more like other modding communities where we wait until an actual C&D 17:29 Warr1024 letter is sent by the rightsholder themselves or something, but as of right now, we don't even really have that option. 17:47 lissobone Question. 17:48 lissobone Is it OK if it will say "error" with a robotic voice where the i3_cannot.ogg sound plays? 17:48 lissobone Because I've got an unused effect from my mod that does this. 17:49 lissobone kilbith: what are your thoughts? 17:49 rubenwardy that will be really annoying, given it's a UI and not a robot 17:49 rubenwardy you want a dull thud sound, that's common for errors 17:49 lissobone Alright. 18:46 MTDiscord Ah also kilbith: You seem to be thinking everyone is out to replace i3 with UI. This is not the case. i3 is much more popular than UI and for a reason - it simply offers a much better experience, which is why it is important that it is libre. 18:49 kilbith lissobone: I'm not interested in your sounds, sorry 18:50 kilbith asking out the Factorio team will be last and only bullet, and it fails, i3 will be taken down, doomed to be a souvenir 18:50 kilbith +if 18:50 FavoritoHJS (laughs in forks) 18:51 MTDiscord don't worry, someone's gonna fork i3 into i5 18:51 kilbith i3 has been coded in such a way that it'll be hard to fork 18:51 kilbith understanding the codebase by someone else is known to be a PITA 18:52 kilbith it was created in such a way that I will remain the sole author and maintainer 18:52 rubenwardy bad code then 18:52 kilbith call it as you want 18:52 muurkha so your intention is to deny users the freedom to copy and modify it, even though the license technically permits it? 18:52 MTDiscord that's... an interesting strategy 18:53 kilbith like I said, if I had to possibilty to distribute as closed source, I'd have done it 18:54 FavoritoHJS did i expect anything else from the person who refused to merge xdecor free assets for so long it got forked? 18:54 FavoritoHJS and when called out on it pulled out the nazi card? 18:54 kilbith and put it under an ads webpage and make it a monthly salary out of it 18:54 kilbith like Optifine does 18:55 MTDiscord shudders ...optifine... 18:55 kilbith yes, I'm tired of doing things for free 18:56 muurkha oh, well, that makes sense 18:56 muurkha maybe you should write your own game instead of freeloading off the work of sfan5 and celeron55 (and rubenwardy and VanessaE and...) 18:57 muurkha because it sounds like you're working hard to not hold up your end of the bargain 18:58 MTDiscord also I don't think i3's code is that bad. the preprocessing stuff might slow someone down if they're not familiar with it but it's far from obfuscated 18:58 MTDiscord kilbith: if i3 gets delisted due to not replacing the sounds with libre ones, I will put up a libre fork; replacing 4 sounds does not require understanding the codebase 18:58 MTDiscord that is also true, however 18:58 MTDiscord said i3 fork could be as-is with fixed sounds and still be good 18:58 MTDiscord and yes, in the long run maintenance would be required, but i3 is maintainable 18:59 MTDiscord (it is nothing compared to kimaprcode) 18:59 MTDiscord good fucking god kimaprcode 18:59 kilbith if anyone tries to fork it and put it on CDB, I've got other levers to take them down. 18:59 MTDiscord now that's obfuscated 18:59 MTDiscord ("nothing" as in very readable) 19:00 MTDiscord are you... what 19:00 MTDiscord which levers may I ask? 19:00 FavoritoHJS ...most of which you lost form licensing 19:00 MTDiscord because i3 presumably is free software 19:00 FavoritoHJS remember: your code is mit'd 19:00 MTDiscord which includes the freedom to redistribute it 19:00 MTDiscord you licensed it under MIT, you're not gonna be able to take it down 19:00 FavoritoHJS i suggest you think, why are you shooting yourself in the foot like this? 19:01 MTDiscord I'm certain that if i3 gets delisted, a libre fork will be put up. 19:01 kilbith you will see 19:01 MTDiscord TBH it'd be best if the mt-mods team did this. 19:01 MTDiscord o.o 19:01 muurkha haha 19:01 rubenwardy if you have such levers then i3 shouldn't be on CDB at all 19:01 MTDiscord kilbith: are you implying i3 is covertly nonfree? 19:01 FavoritoHJS from minecraftland i recall two cases similar to this -- gregtech and reika, they both had a much, MUCH better justification... and they both ended up nearly forgotten for 6 years and yes respectibly 19:01 muurkha he's probably just threatening to stalk you and beat you up 19:01 MTDiscord (excepting those 4 sounds) 19:01 muurkha or DDoS the CDB 19:02 muurkha so I wouldn't worry too much about it 19:02 muurkha excuse me, they; I don't know kilbith's gender 19:02 kilbith otherwise I suggest that the whole community closes their eyes and forget what had happened today, until eventually (and unlikely) the lawyers come up. 19:03 muurkha FavoritoHJS: respectibly? 19:03 FavoritoHJS yes 19:03 FavoritoHJS sorry 19:03 VoidStalker[m] kilbith: What happened today? 19:03 rubenwardy he got found out for stealing sounds from Factorio 19:03 FavoritoHJS 4 sound bites from factorio found in i3, kb responds with nuking the whole mod from orbit 19:04 muurkha and now he's threatening revenge against anyone who complies with i3's license 19:04 muurkha *they're 19:05 definitelya_ Peace, sunshine and rainbows anybody? Chill 19:06 MTDiscord tenplus at least wanted to reconcile, sheesh 19:06 FavoritoHJS the closest analogue i can think of is plustic, which... yes, that actually seems very close 19:07 MTDiscord Well if I decided I wanted c418's songs in my game I'd be flamboozled off the discord 19:07 MTDiscord https://content.minetest.net/packages/Thisaccountis42/mcl_jukebox_c418/ 19:07 MTDiscord C418's CC-BY licensed music is fine 19:08 FavoritoHJS ...unless you can somehow get them in a valid license, which oh wait [some of them are](https://content.minetest.net/packages/Thisaccountis42/mcl_jukebox_c418/) 19:08 FavoritoHJS hmm, does the irc-discord bridge also happen to resolve markdown links? 19:08 MTDiscord oh yeah it does haha 19:08 MTDiscord How hard can it be to go to free sound and type in some random words that sound like what you're thinking, license Cc0, and swap them out. Takes like 5 minutes unless you're a real picky piece of poop like me 19:08 ROllerozxa [cool link](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ) 19:09 ROllerozxa fuck, embed 19:09 MTDiscord LOL 19:09 ROllerozxa *there was an attempt* 19:09 MTDiscord cool link 19:09 MTDiscord doesn't work on discord 19:09 FavoritoHJS hah, knew it 19:09 MTDiscord weird to have more features over a bridge 19:09 MTDiscord Is Jones Pickleton the creator of i3? 19:09 MTDiscord muurkha: if you look at his GH profile (https://github.com/kilbith/), you will find that male pronouns are likely safe to use 19:10 ROllerozxa I guess it makes sense considering bots have the ability to use some more markdown features, though I thought it only was possible within embeds 19:10 MTDiscord rubenwardy: yeah, it only works if bots / webhooks do it 🙃 19:12 muurkha definitelya_: is there a mod for peace, sunshine, and rainbows? 19:12 definitelya_ Nyan cat maybe? 19:12 muurkha the irc-discord bridge is just displaying the raw Markdown, which is fine 19:13 MTDiscord Sunshine is builtin, nyancats provide rainbows ... for peace, you might be on your own. 19:13 sfan5 rubenwardy: actually, does the DMCA "if you gain knowledge of it" only apply to the copyright holder complaining or in general? 19:13 MTDiscord KILBITH why u no change the sounds, please I beg of you 19:13 FavoritoHJS peace would mean no hostile mobs which... oh look, mtg doesn't include any mobs by default 19:13 rubenwardy sfan5: there's a precedure for the copyright holder complaining, but there's also a section about "gaining actual knowledge" 19:13 MTDiscord Ahem, fireflies 19:14 FavoritoHJS not mobs, just nodes, you can even punch them (punching not recommended for the firefly/butterfly) 19:15 rubenwardy See C here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/512 19:15 rubenwardy the bit I quote is separate to the bit about DMCA notices 19:15 MTDiscord If a node moves around, does that make it a mob? I mean, the only difference is the amount of precision the intelligence is using to move around the environment 19:16 MTDiscord There have been node-based "mobs" such as nc_snakes already. 19:16 MTDiscord It works, but it just isn't quite as smooth as you probably want it to be. 19:17 MTDiscord Of course not, it's a node 19:19 MTDiscord What would Richard Stallman think of 🤮 proprietary 🤮 audio 🤮 bytes 🤮 19:20 muurkha He's probably written an essay about this on the FSF website 19:20 MTDiscord He's writing it as we speak 😔 19:21 kilbith legit question: what would happen to Mona Lisa if was "forked"? 19:21 kilbith *if it 19:21 MTDiscord Someone would throw paint on the original and make it an nft 19:21 MTDiscord Nah, I think you have to burn it to make it a proper NFT. 19:22 kilbith Mona Lisa would be banged up 19:22 rubenwardy if it were forkable then there would be multiple copies of it, the original would be the same and still in the Louvre 19:22 MTDiscord (C) only applies for life of the author plus some time, which has probably passed already for the Mona Lisa, so recreating the image may be fair game. Well, in the USA, it would be considered "public domain", but I don't know what it would be in countries that don't have one of those. 19:23 rubenwardy the Mono Lisa is out of copyright as well... yeah exactly, you can already fork the mona lisa and make derivatives 19:23 MTDiscord The image of the Mona Lisa would be copyrightable, whereas the actual original Mona Lisa would be moot because even today the technology to copy the actual canvas doesn't exist. 19:23 kilbith except that you put the original at the door and let forks go into the Louvre. 19:24 MTDiscord If the original were, say, radioactive, then yeah, I'd probably keep that in a vault in the basement and put a copy on display instead. 19:24 MTDiscord So all kilbith has to do is put those audio files in the louvre for 200 years and he can use them without worry? 19:25 MTDiscord If, say, the Louvre didn't actually HAVE the Mona Lisa because it was actually owned by, say, the creators of Factorio, then it wouldn't be a question of whether the Louvre allows it inside or not. 19:26 MTDiscord If somebody stole it and then hung it inside the Louvre, I'm sure the cops would totally just leave it there after they heard the curators' "well WE didn't do it" excuse. 19:26 MTDiscord That's the best reasoning I've ever heard 19:27 MTDiscord Nah, it's not exactly 200 years. It's like, the creator's life plus 70 or something? Or was it 130 now? 19:27 MTDiscord Basically "creator's life plus however long Walt Disney has been dead" 19:28 MTDiscord I don't disagree that this whole song and dance is pretty stupid, either, it's just not our call whether we're required to do it or not. 19:29 MTDiscord https://tenor.com/view/dancing-dog-gif-13304250 19:30 muurkha the Mona Lisa has been forked thousands of times 19:30 muurkha there's a Wikipedia article about forks of the Mona Lisa in fact: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mona_Lisa_replicas_and_reinterpretations 19:31 kilbith all quality forks! 19:31 kilbith /s 19:31 MTDiscord Monard lizard is currently on the domain of publicity though 19:32 muurkha fortunately in 16th-century Italy there was no copyright law, so people started forking it immediately 19:33 muurkha this is apparently the oldest known fork: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mona_Lisa_replicas_and_reinterpretations#/media/File:Gioconda_%28copia_del_Museo_del_Prado_restaurada%29.jpg 19:35 muurkha by Leonardo's own apprentice 19:36 muurkha apparently it was painted while the original was being painted, making it really a fork and not just a version 19:41 muurkha there's a category in Wikimedia Commons with 150 files and 6 subcategories: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Derivative_works_of_Mona_Lisa 19:44 muurkha of hundreds of forks of the Mona Lisa 19:46 muurkha 156 + 31 + 20 + 11 + 14 + 2 + 3 + 14 + 12 + 16 + 38 + 29 + 5 + 16 + 3 + 6 + 33 forks of the Mona Lisa, I think, although surely there are many more that have not been uploaded to Commons 19:46 muurkha 409 forks in total 20:20 independent56 Can i use FreeCAD for models as it is what i feel most comfortable using? 20:21 independent56 Like, i find Blender difficult and too free. I like Freecad as it gives me fine control over each piece without worryign about touching wrong things 20:22 MTDiscord You should be able to as long as you can export them to a format that MT can use. 20:23 MTDiscord Also fistbump, unexpected fellow FreeCAD user (though seemingly not for the same purpose) 20:26 muurkha yeah, you can 20:28 independent56 Yeah, i use OJB files as output 20:28 independent56 They're human reaable 20:29 independent56 I like freecad as you have to specify the exact locations of things instead of dragging them around. It's more better. 20:30 muurkha it's helpful if you include the FreeCAD file in the mod source code though 20:30 muurkha it helps people mod the mod 20:32 muurkha CC-BY-SA doesn't require this, but if you license the mesh under the GPL, the GPL does require it. but the GPL also arguably requires you to include the full source code of FreeCAD in that case, so it's probably better to just use CC-BY-SA or CC-BY or CC0 for the media 20:33 independent56 Yeah, i will do that 20:36 independent56 Here are the rough designs i made: https://i.imgur.com/LI9USpE.png 20:36 independent56 They;re very messy and can't wait to be converted 20:37 independent56 I've decided to go for creating many seperate modules and having a small little file tell a python script how to mix the files together 20:37 independent56 Something like mastbase+ladder for putting mastbase.obj and ladder.obj together 20:37 independent56 Merging works, but i haven't tested rotating using stuff like wire*r or wire*90 20:37 muurkha neat, I imagine that's easy to do in FreeCAD? 20:38 independent56 Yeah, they're ok 20:38 independent56 I can make a light cover by subtracting a cylynder, a smaller cykynder, and a cuboid 20:42 MTDiscord Supposedly Blender experts can get comparable precision to FreeCAD and can even do useful CAD-type work in it ... but yeah, the learning curve for FreeCAD was bad enough, but Blender's is even harsher. 20:43 MTDiscord I use FreeCAD pretty extensively for my 3D printing stuff. 20:45 muurkha oh, of course you can do anything in Blender you can do in FreeCAD 20:45 muurkha but there are things that are a lot easier to do in FreeCAD 20:46 muurkha (*you* obviously know this since you use it) 20:47 MTDiscord I've learned blender like 2 or 3 times now and I STILL don't know how to use it. I learned FreeCAD once, and there has yet to be a version update that's broken that. 20:48 MTDiscord Granted, about 40% of what I know about FreeCAD is how to avoid all the stupid crashes and stuff caused by me using cheap shortcuts instead of drafting things out "properly" but 🤷 20:49 muurkha heh, yeah, I've found it a bit unstable 20:54 independent56 I still don't know what each of the workspaces do because "part" is good enough 20:55 MTDiscord Draft has Modification -> Array tools which I get a ton of value out of ... but yeah, Part is where I spend like 90% of my time too 😄 23:08 kilbith https://github.com/minetest-mods/i3/commit/5d4f9b47