| Time |
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| 02:39 |
MTDiscord |
<Faerraven> Just noticed this, and thought that it was cool. So, thank you. |
| 02:39 |
MTDiscord |
<Faerraven> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1059662322546786374/image.png |
| 02:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> (please explain what your replying to so that irc users understand. they dont see the replied to message) |
| 02:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> also, semi necroposting |
| 02:44 |
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| 02:45 |
FavoritoHJS |
is there a way to change how bright a day/night is? |
| 02:46 |
FavoritoHJS |
best that i can find is `override_day_night_ratio` but that would lock up the day-light cycle and I don't want to reimplement it for no reason |
| 02:48 |
FavoritoHJS |
also how do you enable dynamic shadows? |
| 02:48 |
FavoritoHJS |
well, not just the config option but also enabling it in a game |
| 02:54 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> You can change the gamma curve, which changes how bright light displays as. Mostly it just makes the midtones brighter (i.e. closer to full sunlight). Absolute black doesn't change. |
| 02:55 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> You also can't really change the balance between artificial and natural light, I think (yet at least) |
| 03:03 |
FavoritoHJS |
no, i meant about making nights be brighter, not changing what a light level means |
| 03:14 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> So like make moonlight brighter without changing the effect of artificial lights? Hmm, yeah, that's not super easy. |
| 03:15 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I haven't messed with override_day_night_ratio in a world using the default skybox but presumably those things don't affect one another...? |
| 03:15 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> go back in time and smack paramat. course you could say that for lots of things |
| 03:15 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> so you could in theory just calculate your own light-based-on-time-of-day function and apply override based on that. |
| 03:15 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> they dont |
| 03:16 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> globalstep, if time is between 2 values of night, override all the players day night ratio to what you want |
| 03:17 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Unfortunately the default curve to control light intensity based on TOD is probably some ugly piecewise linear maybe-eased kind of thing and not just like a dead simple sine function, so there'd be a bit of messing about to recreate that, I suppose? But it could be done |
| 03:17 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> wsor's suggestion is simpler of course, but then you are just raising one floor, and you have to make sure you get the transition time just right so that it doesn't suddenly get darker right before sunrise or after sunset or something. |
| 03:18 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It would also mean sunset stops earlier and sunrise starts later, but it's possible that that effect might be too small to notice anyway. |
| 03:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Faerraven> Oh. my bad. |
| 03:30 |
MTDiscord |
<Faerraven> Does IRC show edits? or? how should I handle that? wsor? |
| 03:31 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> it doesnt. i would make my discord edit, then do something like *edit and then deleted it since its already sent to irc and changed here |
| 03:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Faerraven> Edit: @runs -- I just found out about the Sammy Awards! And I thought that this was cool. So, thank you. |
| 03:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Faerraven> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1059675750527148062/image.png |
| 03:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Faerraven> cool, done. thank you. |
| 03:59 |
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| 04:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I usually just avoid using discord-only features that won't carry though (assuming of course that I remember I'm in an IRC channel; discord doesn't help with any kind of particular reminders). This means often sending an "oops" message instead of using the edit feature. |
| 04:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> i mean, some bridges are smart about it and resend it for you with the edit |
| 04:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> given how, limited, irc is it can be hard. bridging to matrix is much easier in terms of feature parity |
| 04:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> tbh "smart" bridges that send edits as additional messages with context can be annoying too. IIRC this is what Matrix does, and it seems to increase the noise factor quite a bit. |
| 04:26 |
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| 15:16 |
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| 15:16 |
lissobone |
Important question. |
| 15:17 |
lissobone |
Is minetest free software or open source? |
| 15:17 |
rubenwardy |
Both |
| 15:18 |
lissobone |
That would imply that it's free software, since it logically includes the principle of open source. |
| 15:20 |
rubenwardy |
They're different ideologies for the same thing |
| 15:22 |
lissobone |
Not the same. |
| 15:28 |
MTDiscord |
<MarkTheSmeagol> One could argue certain licenses (CC-SA-BY-NC comes to mind) are open, but not free. |
| 15:29 |
MTDiscord |
<MarkTheSmeagol> but at that point we are being more pedantic than useful. |
| 15:30 |
debiankaios |
hi, if rubenwardy is here I wanted to point out that the German Modding Book has been waiting for 3 weeks to be merged, without response. The German translators had actually intended to have it on the site before Christmas, and were ready a week before, but it is still pending. Link: https://gitlab.com/rubenwardy/minetest_modding_book/-/merge_requests/121 |
| 15:37 |
rubenwardy |
It's been Christmas holidays, I've been with family without a laptop |
| 15:37 |
rubenwardy |
I'm still catching up |
| 15:44 |
rubenwardy |
CC-SA-BY-NC is not open source because it limits free distribution: https://opensource.org/osd |
| 15:45 |
rubenwardy |
debiankaios: it would be helpful if you could have someone else (who is a native German speaker) check the translation |
| 15:46 |
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| 15:54 |
debiankaios |
rubenwardy, already done |
| 15:55 |
debiankaios |
every chapter was translated by someone and reviewed by someone |
| 15:55 |
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| 16:03 |
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| 16:18 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It sounds to me like MT is open source, because "it's free software NOT open source" is a free software position 😆 |
| 16:24 |
muurkha |
no, "it's free software NOT open source" is a clueless position |
| 16:24 |
muurkha |
if we're talking about the status of a piece of software |
| 16:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I mean to be fair you're not necessarily contradicting what I said. |
| 16:25 |
muurkha |
CC-SA-BY-NC is not free software (in the sense of the DFSG or the FSF's FSD) for exactly the same reason it's not open source (according to the OSD) |
| 16:25 |
muurkha |
rubenwardy has the right of it |
| 16:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> In terms of set theory, yes, rubenwardy is correct, but I think the more correct answer to the question would be more along the line of "what exactly do you mean in asking that". Actually answering the question sort of plays into the flawed ideology underlying the questions. |
| 16:30 |
muurkha |
agreed |
| 17:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The whole "free software good, open source bad" meme is annoying, and destructive to both movements (not that they're not even necessarily the same one in the first place). It pops up on ContentDB from time to time too and at best creates confusion, at worst ends in fights. |
| 17:15 |
muurkha |
agreed |
| 17:17 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Well, we do use the term FOSS for a reason, and it's not JUST because we're lazy and don't like to type out long stuff (though that's a big factor) |
| 17:18 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> To be fair I have never really undertaken an analysis of the non-overlap between FSF and OSI set of approved licenses. I do know that I tend to stick with only a few, and I'm pretty sure they're in the intersection of both. |
| 17:19 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> A license is really sort of the real soul of a project, and it sort of doesn't matter what philosophical underpinnings you go into a project with, because the license will determine what ideological rails you're riding along eventually anyway. |
| 17:30 |
muurkha |
IIRC there was one license they disagreed on a number of years ago, but I think that was because one of them interpreted the license incorrectly; the license was later rewritten to eliminate the potential for that misinterpretation |
| 17:32 |
muurkha |
in theory they could disagree on more things because the FSD and the OSD (and DFSG) are pretty different; you could probably deliberately write a license to conform to one but not the other, but it would be hard and then nobody else would use it |
| 17:32 |
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| 17:34 |
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| 17:35 |
Mc |
there are some existing (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netscape_Public_License ) |
| 17:35 |
Mc |
or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocal_Public_License for the other way |
| 17:44 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Those licenses are pretty easy to avoid, as a community, especially given that everyone likes to rewrite code from scratch here and nobody likes to reuse anything 😆 |
| 17:46 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> 99% of the licensing issues we run into are media-related anyway, and most of the MT ecosystem seems to just use one of a handful of CC licenses, all of which I think are both Free and Open, insofar as those definitions even apply to "media" (e.g. where traditionally the "source" for it might not even exist, and is often not distributed). |
| 17:50 |
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| 17:54 |
muurkha |
yeah, one of the big frictions between the FSF and Debian has been media licensing |
| 17:54 |
muurkha |
Debian doesn't want to include things whose licenses don't allow modification, even if they aren't software, and the FSF includes "invariant sections" in all its manuals to tell you about their mission |
| 17:55 |
muurkha |
consequently Debian includes Emacs and GCC but not their manuals! |
| 17:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Haha, wow, that's an angle I hadn't thought of. I do sometimes find the actions of the FSF kind of paradoxical, like "we're taking this freedom away from you to ensure everyone's freedom." Rhetorically, they justify that by describing those things as "power, not freedom", but that seems like just semantic trickery. |
| 18:00 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> FS seems to believe in forcing people to do the right thing, while OS seems to prefer to simply empower people to do the right thing, and trust that, even in the case where some people don't, there will be enough people who will that it won't matter in the long run. |
| 18:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The idea that somebody could take permissively-licensed software, make it proprietary, add some features, and then out-compete the original in the marketplace isn't exactly invalid per se, but it does kind of play into the "scarcity mindset" of proprietary software to begin with. Free is sort of like "we'll use their rules against them to beat them at their own game" while Open is more like "we were never playing the same game to begin |
| 18:02 |
MTDiscord |
with." |
| 18:02 |
muurkha |
Well, there are tradeoffs everywhere, even where we wish there weren't. |
| 18:04 |
muurkha |
Linux has beaten the crap out of FreeBSD in large part because companies like Apple have done exactly that with FreeBSD: make it proprietary, add some features, and then out-compete the original in the marketplace. That's also what happened with the Lisp Machine Lisp that Stallman worked on before he started the FSF |
| 18:05 |
muurkha |
Nothing social is as simple as it appears at first. |
| 18:06 |
muurkha |
thanks for the links, Mc |
| 18:06 |
muurkha |
I didn't notice them earlier |
| 18:08 |
muurkha |
though it sounds like the NPL actually does comply with the OSD, but just that Netscape never asked the OSI to review it (perhaps because the OSI was sort of born out of the efforts of writing the NPL and MPL) |
| 18:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> That doesn't sound right to me; I'm pretty sure Linux was dominant pretty long before Apple got really interested in the BSD world. |
| 18:08 |
muurkha |
BSD was dominant before Linux was created |
| 18:08 |
muurkha |
I mean, Sun was founded on BSD |
| 18:08 |
definitelya |
I feel like greed is the archnemesis of FOSS software, whereas the one of Free software is the proprietary kind. |
| 18:09 |
definitelya |
Might be wrong. |
| 18:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I think a big part of it is also that the BSDs and Linux measure "dominance" differently. Linux and Free Software tend to use the same "popularity" metric that the proprietary world does, where there are markets and competitors compete for share. BSDs however are Open Source, and there the goals are more just around making software that's better for a purpose. If that purpose doesn't align with that many people's needs then that isn't |
| 18:09 |
MTDiscord |
so important, so long as it serves those who do align well. |
| 18:10 |
muurkha |
That sounds plausible, yeah |
| 18:10 |
muurkha |
though certainly it isn't true of free software in general |
| 18:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Well, there are surely some Free Software adherents who don't care about "marketshare" too, but of course the ones who do tend to steer the conversation 😄 |
| 18:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If you care about popularity then you tend to get more of it, all other things being equal, and when other people measure the tone of the conversation based on what the most people are saying, then that all sort of reinforces all that. |
| 18:11 |
muurkha |
yeah |
| 18:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I think a big driving factor behind Open Source ideology is that software "betterness" is non-rival, i.e. that if you make your software better, it doesn't prevent me or anybody else from having that same benefit. So I can freely improve my software and don't really have to worry about "keeping it out of the hands" of anyone else because just because they can access those improvements doesn't lock me or anybody else from them. |
| 18:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Could someone just copy all my features AND add features that I can't copy because they're proprietary? Sure ... but they're still competing against me, and I'm still adding my own stuff. Plus, they've also abandoned free licensing, which, while not necessarily a major feature to the "common user", may still be pretty important to my own target audience. |
| 18:15 |
definitelya |
Warr: Yes it is less of an exclusive nerd club (in the good sense) than Free software. :) |
| 18:16 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> To me, FOSS is itself a significant feature, and weighs pretty heavily on my choice to use something. It's not even necessary that I foresee possibly needing to modify it for my own purposes; simply not having a conflict of interest against software I depend on is important. I want to know my software is going to serve me and not some other master at my expense. Anyone who abandons that has to add a LOT of fancy proprietary features |
| 18:16 |
MTDiscord |
to make up for that, and if it's not a feature that actually matters for my use-case, they get no points for it. |
| 18:17 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Marketshare matters for commercial software, where every additional user is an additional unit of revenue. In FOSS, it only matters abstractly, i.e. it's maybe an additional potential contributor ... but the folks who are most likely to contribute aren't a representative sample of the overall "market" anyway, and are also more likely to care about FOSSy sorts of things anyway. |
| 18:45 |
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| 18:47 |
muurkha |
I don't think that's the real difference, though it's close |
| 18:47 |
muurkha |
it's the open-source ideology that considers new users as "maybe an additional potential contributor" |
| 18:47 |
muurkha |
because it's focused on open source as a better means to the end of software development |
| 18:49 |
muurkha |
but the free-software ideology is focused on protecting users from (as free-software folks see it) exploitation by abusive software owners, usually companies that employ the software's authors |
| 18:50 |
muurkha |
and so to the free-software ideology every additional user of free software is an additional user who has been freed from onerous proprietary licenses, regardless of whether they're using your free software or somebody else's free software, as long as they aren't using proprietary software |
| 18:51 |
muurkha |
"my software is going to serve me and not some other master at my expense" is a concern from the FSF camp, not the OSI camp |
| 18:52 |
muurkha |
Linux is much more in the OSI camp, despite using an FSF-developed license, and the people who I know who work on FreeBSD are much more in the FSF camp, despite not doing so |
| 18:53 |
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| 18:55 |
muurkha |
the OSI was founded (and the term "open source" was coined) pretty explicitly as a way to market free-software licensing practices to software companies like Netscape, and they did that specifically by emphasizing the benefits of additional potential contributors and downplaying the no-user-exploitation and software-copyright-is-abuse angles that had been central to the FSF's message since its founding |
| 19:04 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Heh, that's pretty weird, but I guess it sense. We see it in other places, like the way political parties sometimes "circle around" their rivals to the extent where they can actually trade positions on major issues (though they pretty much never exactly recreate an old position; things are constantly drifting around on a ton of axes all the time). |
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