Minetest logo

IRC log for #minetest, 2023-01-04

| Channels | #minetest index | Today | | Google Search | Plaintext

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:43 MTDiscord <Awkanimus> I see pgsql_mod_storage_connection in src/server.cpp however doc/world_format.txt is missing this. Is this just an omission or is there history such as the feature being unstable / unsafe / experimental / something there?
00:45 MTDiscord <Jonathon> its a new feature in 5.7
00:46 MTDiscord <Jonathon> see https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/12879
00:50 MTDiscord <Awkanimus> Great, thanks!
00:52 MTDiscord <Jonathon> anyways, if its not documented, file an issue, or better open a pr
00:54 MTDiscord <Awkanimus> I was considering doing just that lol.
00:58 Trifton_ joined #minetest
00:59 Lesha_Vel joined #minetest
01:22 smk joined #minetest
01:24 MTDiscord <Awkanimus> Why not: #13113
01:24 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/13113 -- Document mod storage psql settings in world_format.txt by Awkanimus
01:25 MTDiscord <Awkanimus> (that's to say, I created the pull request. It's two lines in the documentation but may save others from greping through code)
01:35 MTDiscord <SolarShrine> how does the up parameter of vector.dir_to_rotation() actually work? the documentation didn't help me understand it well.
01:37 MTDiscord <SolarShrine> i couldn't visuallize how the roll angle is determined from up
02:39 lemonzest joined #minetest
03:43 FavoritoHJS <rant> i must be missing something, why do build tools tend to be so opaque, what happens if a depenency is gone, how do i swap it if i don't even know where it searches... </rant>
04:11 mannerism joined #minetest
04:53 YuGiOhJCJ joined #minetest
05:00 MTDiscord joined #minetest
05:00 YuGiOhJCJ joined #minetest
05:44 VoidStalker[m] joined #minetest
06:40 Leopold joined #minetest
07:01 Leopold joined #minetest
07:35 YuGiOhJCJ joined #minetest
07:46 YuGiOhJCJ joined #minetest
07:50 Sven_vB joined #minetest
07:58 mrkubax10 joined #minetest
08:11 definitelya joined #minetest
09:19 specing joined #minetest
09:37 Sven_vB joined #minetest
10:26 skunky3 joined #minetest
10:28 appguru joined #minetest
10:44 definitelya_ joined #minetest
11:17 kilbith joined #minetest
12:19 Oblomov joined #minetest
12:22 Luris joined #minetest
12:22 Luris lettuce
12:25 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> lettuce?
12:25 MTDiscord <luatic> cabbage
12:26 Luris lettus
12:27 Luris cabagg
12:27 Luris qcumbr
12:44 FavoritoHJS joined #minetest
13:12 mrkubax10 left #minetest
13:28 lissobone Greetings.
13:37 lissobone left #minetest
13:50 ___nick___ joined #minetest
14:11 sparky4 joined #minetest
14:21 skunky6 joined #minetest
14:40 appguru joined #minetest
14:55 kabou joined #minetest
15:08 Fixer joined #minetest
15:33 Desour joined #minetest
15:36 ___nick___ joined #minetest
15:38 ___nick___ joined #minetest
15:42 sparky4 joined #minetest
15:51 mazes_80 joined #minetest
15:54 Shorp_Tr joined #minetest
16:27 fluxionary joined #minetest
16:28 Shorp_Tr joined #minetest
16:56 sparky4 joined #minetest
17:19 bdju joined #minetest
17:19 proller joined #minetest
17:29 Talkless joined #minetest
17:45 mrkubax10 joined #minetest
18:07 appguru joined #minetest
18:13 Desour joined #minetest
18:45 peterz joined #minetest
18:49 peterz joined #minetest
18:58 kabou joined #minetest
19:00 peterz joined #minetest
19:06 peterz joined #minetest
19:12 FavoritoHJS joined #minetest
19:39 sparky4 joined #minetest
19:39 mrkubax10 left #minetest
19:41 debiankaios joined #minetest
20:18 proller joined #minetest
21:03 Oblomov joined #minetest
21:05 sparky4 joined #minetest
22:03 Fixer_ joined #minetest
22:38 FavoritoHJS i fear mankind is doomed. so many important subject, such as nuclear weapons or climate change, have become so cloudy that effective action is not being pursued... at the point where we absolutely need massive action to prevent a complete breakdown of society.
22:38 FavoritoHJS and even if such massive action could be made, we have plenty of catch-22's that will make it fruitless anyways. How do we stop fossil fuels when renewables are iffy, energy storage is nil, fission can only be entrusted with a few nations and fusion is too far away?
22:38 FavoritoHJS how can we prevent the fragile cycles that keep our planet as it is from breaking down, when they are already failing, and further failures will result in even worse breakdowns?
22:40 FavoritoHJS please tell me i'm wrong, as i'd not want to live my life with the knowledge that all will be for naught, for the signs have arrived and apocalypse is near
22:41 MTDiscord <luatic> FavoritoHJS: Apocalypse is not near.
22:43 MTDiscord <luatic> Nuclear weapons have been there for more than half a century now yet humanity has not annihilated itself.
22:43 FavoritoHJS so that's one problem less... but at this rate it's the lesser one
22:43 FavoritoHJS after all, "kill me and i'll kill you" has proven a decent deterrant
22:44 MTDiscord <luatic> Indeed
22:44 FavoritoHJS for now, at least... i can only hope it remains that way
22:44 MTDiscord <luatic> one might even argue that this balance of terror has prevented many pointless deaths
22:45 FavoritoHJS however all that means is that nuclear weapons aren't as dangerous
22:45 FavoritoHJS climate change, however...
22:45 MTDiscord <luatic> Climate change will not render the planet uninhabitable anytime soon; it will just make it harder to inhabit it, but humans will adapt.
22:46 FavoritoHJS at a huge cost
22:46 MTDiscord <luatic> Projecting a breakdown of society still seems overly pessimistic to me though.
22:46 FavoritoHJS i doubt any of us will be alive in 2035, that kind of huge cost
22:46 MTDiscord <luatic> That is an outrageous claim.
22:46 MTDiscord <luatic> I hardly believe you can back that up.
22:47 FavoritoHJS if the climate heats up much more then crop failures are inevitalbe
22:47 FavoritoHJS that means famines, crisis, death
22:47 MTDiscord <luatic> Quantify it.
22:47 FavoritoHJS potentially enough that some crazed person would launch nukes...
22:48 MTDiscord <luatic> It seems unlikely to me that crop failures within the next decade would be large enough to cause first-world loss of supply; after all it is very well possible to raise farming capacities.
22:48 FavoritoHJS i'm not a historian, but i'll say around 50% crop failure, causing basically any non-first-world country to starve to death, likely taking down much of the rest
22:49 MTDiscord <luatic> FavoritoHJS: I don't see how history would help with quantifying the crop failure?
22:50 MTDiscord <luatic> Where do you source that number from BTW?
22:50 FavoritoHJS more of a ballpark
22:50 MTDiscord <luatic> Your ballpark estimate probably is highly subjective, being fear-driven
22:52 MTDiscord <luatic> I assume that agriculture will have to shift to colder reasons which will warm up.
22:52 MTDiscord <luatic> Humans in general will probably want to move towards the poles.
22:52 MTDiscord <luatic> colder regions*
22:52 TheCoffeMaker joined #minetest
22:53 FavoritoHJS which will be dificult when said colder regions are ever more densly populatex
22:53 FavoritoHJS also, assuming they can even get there in the first place
22:53 MTDiscord <luatic> e.g. the abstract of a paper reads: "Shifts in breadbaskets may cross national borders as crop yields will increase in Canada and decrease in the US as a response to a changing climate."
22:54 FavoritoHJS all that matters at the end is "will be there enough food so people don't starve" and i'm fairly certain that the answer will be no
22:55 MTDiscord <luatic> FavoritoHJS: Doing twice as much farming is no rocket science.
22:55 MTDiscord <luatic> Even taking your very likely exaggerated figure of 50% crop failure.
22:55 FavoritoHJS doing twice as much farming when fertilizer, fresh water and potentially land are in scarce supply, however...
22:57 MTDiscord <luatic> Why would there be a shortage of fertilizer?
22:59 FavoritoHJS fertilizer is kinda expensive to produce, especially in energy, but i'll retract that point as i might have overestimated the difficulty
22:59 muurkha fertilizer is not scarce, yeah
22:59 muurkha fresh water is only scarce in a relative sense
23:00 muurkha that is, desalination is now cheap enough to grow most crops at a price most people can afford to eat
23:00 muurkha but not cheap enough to compete with crops grown with rainfall
23:00 muurkha I think the current yield of grains alone is about five times the number of calories needed to feed the world's human population
23:01 muurkha but most of them get fed to cows and other livestock
23:02 FavoritoHJS so it seems like climate change could be less bad than I feared... but much of what would make it less bad depends on recognizing and adapting around it
23:02 FavoritoHJS something i fear isn't being done fast enough
23:02 MTDiscord <GoodClover> We've only had only mammal (Bramble Cay Melomys in 2015) go extinct due to climate change so far, saying everyone will be gone in the next few ten years is definitely extreme :P
23:03 muurkha well, climate change is pretty horrifyingly bad, but sometimes people do overestimate its speed
23:03 MTDiscord <GoodClover> We keep passing goals by miles, and are constantly hitting the so-called no-return points they keep moving
23:04 FavoritoHJS the thing about those no-return points is that they don't attack right away
23:05 FavoritoHJS they would take years, decades to go from "just past no return" to "pretty f**ing bad alright"
23:05 MTDiscord <GoodClover> if something takes more than a few years to have a bad effect no one with enough authority to do anything will care
23:06 muurkha yeah, that's why we're in this mess
23:06 FavoritoHJS which is my greatest problem
23:06 muurkha most of the really bad effects are 50, 100 years out
23:06 muurkha I think the situation is a lot brighter than it sounds, though
23:06 muurkha fossil-fuel energy is now far too expensive to compete with cheap renewables in most of the world
23:06 FavoritoHJS sure, it will take a few decades for disaster to strike... but it will strike, and it will hurt
23:07 MTDiscord <GoodClover> it won't strike, it'll gradually arrive
23:07 muurkha Amory Lovins has been tooting this horn since maybe 02014, but it keeps getting more obvious
23:07 FavoritoHJS i'll repeat myself: How do we stop [using] fossil fuels when renewables are iffy, energy storage is nil, fission can only be entrusted with a few nations and fusion is too far away?
23:08 MTDiscord <GoodClover> by using less energy, but good luck with that
23:08 muurkha no, by using dramatically *more* energy
23:08 muurkha which is what happens every time energy gets a lot cheaper
23:08 FavoritoHJS now you see why i'm afraid?
23:09 muurkha renewables aren't iffy, and energy storage is only nil because so far fossil-fuel baseload and peaker plants are sufficient to cover for renewables' variability
23:09 MTDiscord <GoodClover> I find it incredibly we don't have more fusion plants though, Germany even closing them
23:09 MTDiscord <GoodClover> *incredible
23:09 muurkha *fission
23:09 MTDiscord <GoodClover> gah
23:09 FavoritoHJS by iffy i was thinking more of intermittent--they usually produce power, but sometimes they don't, and you need to store energy for that
23:10 muurkha fission plants are even more expensive than coal plants though; everything outside the nuclear island is basically a coal plant
23:10 muurkha and coal plants are too expensive to compete with renewables in most of the world (though Germany is at a special disadvantage there, being polar, cloudy, and not windy)
23:10 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Meh, we'll have fusion reactors soon anyway
23:10 MTDiscord <GoodClover> now that's optimistic
23:11 muurkha no, it's just realistic
23:11 FavoritoHJS well, soon is 10 years... every time
23:11 FavoritoHJS 10 years ago it was 10 years, 10 years from now it will be 10 years
23:11 muurkha fossil-fuel advocates keep sticking their head in the sand
23:11 FavoritoHJS don't plan for it
23:11 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Last time we didn't have functioning fusion reactions
23:11 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Its not my job to plan for it, ill let helion do that
23:11 muurkha if you do the numbers, you'll see that even with today's battery tech, grid-scale energy storage sufficient to cover the intermittency of renewables without any fossil-fuel production at all
23:12 Alias joined #minetest
23:12 muurkha newer battery tech might end up being cheaper, but demand response is an easier gimme
23:12 FavoritoHJS that's assuming you can make that many batteries
23:12 muurkha yes, but I did the math, and you can
23:12 FavoritoHJS and you can make them affordably
23:12 muurkha so it's not an assumption, it's a calculation
23:12 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Salt ion batteries are arriving too, so
23:12 muurkha you mean sodium-ion batteries
23:13 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> No I store energy in my table shakers
23:13 muurkha they might work, or they might not, but they aren't necessary
23:13 muurkha me too, I put them on a shelf
23:13 muurkha they release energy when they fall off
23:13 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Mine also release energy when the contents are ingested
23:14 muurkha maybe you should switch to sodium chloride so you stop burning your mouth
23:14 FavoritoHJS about batteries, for grid application i imagine cost per x storage is more important than area per x storage
23:14 muurkha yeah
23:14 muurkha thermal energy storage with phase-change materials or thermochemical energy storage is likely to reduce the amount of battery required and be enormously cheaper
23:15 muurkha this has been common for decades for things like skyscrapers: freeze water with cheap baseload power at night, then circulate coolant through it to air-condition the offices during the day
23:15 FavoritoHJS which might be why you simultaneously can and can't make enough batteries: can't with lithium-ion but use something else (return of lead-acid?) and it might become possible
23:15 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Again, sodium ion
23:15 muurkha and of course my grandparents called the refrigerator an "icebox" until they died, because the iceman used to deliver ice every morning
23:15 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> But anyway
23:15 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Carry on
23:15 FavoritoHJS but all this "can be done?" skips a question, "will it be done?"
23:15 muurkha new battery technologies might or might not materialize
23:16 muurkha it will, because the economic incentives are strongly in its favor
23:16 muurkha low-cost energy is one of the most important economic advantages a country can have; it's what produced the Industrial Revolution in the first place
23:17 muurkha the astounding PV price drop from 02009 to 02019 is the first time something like this has happened in 200 years
23:17 MTDiscord <luatic> FavoritoHJS: Yes, it will be done.
23:18 muurkha countries that find a way to take advantage of this will become the new economic superpowers; those that outlaw it, perhaps out of a misguided notion that sunlight is something you can conserve by not using it, will be left behind
23:18 FavoritoHJS and will it be done fast enough? as if it's by 2040 or so it's too late, but if by 2025 we might advert catastrophe
23:19 muurkha even if it's by 02040 we can avert catastrophe with atmospheric carbon capture, which is eminently feasible if you have abundant cheap energy, even if it's intermittent
23:19 muurkha most of my notes on this topic are in https://dercuano.github.io/topics/energy.html if you'd like to read them
23:20 muurkha we're on course to cross over to majority renewable around 02030
23:21 FavoritoHJS i sure hope you're right
23:21 FavoritoHJS though about that crossover... do you mean worldwide or just on some countries?
23:21 muurkha worldwide, though some countries will surely be left behind
23:21 muurkha some countries are already majority renewable
23:22 muurkha here in Argentina we used to be
23:23 FavoritoHJS and another point i worry about is those crossovers. by the time we stop turn off the oven, will we have locked in too much heat?
23:23 muurkha no, but we'll need atmospheric carbon capture
23:24 muurkha but we probably also need Fischer–Tropsch synfuel in order to move the transport sector off fossil fuels
23:24 muurkha and that will probably also need atmospheric carbon capture
23:26 muurkha we might experience some extremely bad things with positive methane feedback though
23:27 muurkha the fact that they will be short-lived bad things won't be much consolation to those who fail to live through them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clathrate_gun_hypothesis
23:27 MTDiscord <GoodClover> hmm I should read into carbon capture, afaik it just takes tons of time & energy. little motivation for anyone to do it other than saving the Earth
23:27 MTDiscord <GoodClover> i.e. no profit from it, so who's gonna do it?
23:28 muurkha well, synfuel will be profitable at a high enough oil price and a low enough input energy price
23:28 muurkha even without a carbon tax
23:29 FavoritoHJS but that means the carbon would go right back into the atmosphere
23:30 FavoritoHJS stupid idea number 8: i've heard that careful use of charcoal can help improve soil quality. Considering finding good land to farm on will probably be the key difficulty in post-climate-change farming, that could be huge
23:30 muurkha some of it, but carbon at the output of a power plant (whether in a fixed building, on a boat, or on a vehicle) is enormously easier to recapture
23:32 panwolfram joined #minetest
23:40 appguru joined #minetest

| Channels | #minetest index | Today | | Google Search | Plaintext