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MTDiscord |
<PrairieWind> what just happened here?....why did the drama get moved to minetest irc? |
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sometalgoo |
Are there any standalone games that use Minetest? Or are the only Minetest games the ones that I can play within Minetest, like MineClone? |
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muurkha |
PrairieWind: it was my fault; I wanted ot know what was going on |
| 07:28 |
muurkha |
so I asked, and people explained |
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MTDiscord |
<Faerraven> Well, on a positive note... I have learned right quick... That it's simpler to use control+f on the api page... than be anywhere near here. @wsor thank you for that mute, mate. Not only did you highlight it with an image for me, you got me to simply not care about this discord server. Meh. And, I really did mean it when I said merry christmas to you. |
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| 12:58 |
lebruhgamer[m] |
that's quite ironic tbh |
| 12:58 |
lebruhgamer[m] |
> minetest discord have rule against bringing external drama |
| 12:58 |
lebruhgamer[m] |
> someone brings mineclone drama into the discord |
| 12:58 |
lebruhgamer[m] |
> they gets muted by mod |
| 12:58 |
lebruhgamer[m] |
> surprised pikachu face |
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| 13:32 |
ancientmariner |
drama was brought. wsor joined in to support his friend. faerraven got mocked. faerraven responded. faerraven got muted. rules are great, but only if they are enforced evenly, and not only against people who your friends dislike |
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| 16:44 |
lissobone |
Greetings. |
| 16:46 |
muurkha |
Faerraven: so far there hasn't been much in the way of muting over here on the IRC side |
| 16:50 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> I don't think there ever is |
| 16:51 |
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| 16:55 |
muurkha |
I don't remember having seen it, but I also don't remember having seen anyone come in and spam the channel with abuse, and it wouldn't surprise me if someone had ops and used them in a case like that |
| 16:55 |
muurkha |
which, to be clear, is not what happened yesterday over on the Discord side |
| 16:55 |
lissobone |
I have just thought of spam occurrences. |
| 16:56 |
lissobone |
Why would one even spam slurs in the minetest IRC channel? |
| 16:57 |
muurkha |
uncontrolled outbursts of emotion? smoking too much meth? I don't feel like I'm qualified to speculate on what drives that kind of behavior |
| 16:57 |
muurkha |
but I'm glad I haven't seen it here and I hope I continue to not see it |
| 16:57 |
lissobone |
Maybe it's the adrenaline? |
| 17:00 |
ancientmariner |
i think some folk like to be edgy. especially those "mc are banning freeeeee speech" usually accompanied by some unsavoury views |
| 17:00 |
ancientmariner |
but you quite often get botting on discord and matrix |
| 17:43 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> People whining about "free speech" too early is sort of a red flag. That kind of thing is highly correlated with people who believe that it's a violation of their "free speech" to prevent them from drowning out other people's speech. |
| 17:45 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Folks who whine about rule enforcement when it happens to them, as if it should be something that only happens to other people, help reassure the moderators that they made the right choice. |
| 17:46 |
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| 17:57 |
ancientmariner |
after wsor in our discord said they felt it was a hostile takeover, proceeded to call the code stupid of the person he later muted, ignored multiple comments such as saying "aw did you learn to rebase hehe" which looks a lot like rule 1, trolling/baiting to me, then muted them after drawing their attention to it. it's pretty obvious it isn't the right decision, but people will see what they want |
| 17:58 |
ancientmariner |
i guess it's good to know where you stand with people though |
| 17:58 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> You're basing that on things you've seen elsewhere. I reviewed the situation that happened in the MT Discord itself and the response was reasonable. If this is part of a feud that's occurring elsewhere then deal with it elsewhere. |
| 17:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If you're going to push one of those "you're either with us or against us" kind of things then you don't even have to ask where you stand. |
| 18:00 |
definitelya |
ancientmariner: Ya'll are more concerned with making enemies instead of continuing the Mineclone 2 project; cut the crap. |
| 18:01 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I'm not even saying "cut the crap"; how y'all run your project is up to you. If you want a competitive/confrontational environment, I can't say that doesn't work for at least some projects. It's just you have to deal with some fallout from that kind of thing, and at least some of that fallout is not allowed on MTD. |
| 18:02 |
ancientmariner |
i'm not pushing that at all. i don't care if people with us, but the constant bashing (ignoring the rules) and mods silencing a response. i would rather the drama wasn't over here. but it keeps being brought over here |
| 18:02 |
ancientmariner |
it isn't welcoming in the slightest |
| 18:03 |
ancientmariner |
i have spent the last month responding to hostile responses to devs prs, and come over here and see the same. it isn't fun in the slightest |
| 18:03 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Cora and Faerraven both broke rules. Each was warned. When warned, Faerraven doubled down, and was muted as a result. It was a mere 24hr cool-off, and definitely not worth the multiple-day-long temper tantrum that ensued and has apparently spread to other people. When cora was warned, they backed down and apologized, and no further action was necessary. |
| 18:04 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If you're having issues in your issues and PR threads then I can only wish you luck with that; I have no authority or influence there. I can only do anything about it when it spills into the discord. |
| 18:04 |
ancientmariner |
cora wasn't actually warned |
| 18:05 |
ancientmariner |
if they both where, i wouldn't mind |
| 18:05 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Why would you even make that claim when the evidence is right there? |
| 18:06 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> ancientmariner: I hope you are aware that warnings might as well happen in private? |
| 18:07 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Well, in this case, it didn't, cora was warned in the public channel. |
| 18:08 |
ancientmariner |
i've just read it again, cora continued after the initial warning, michael wasn't actually there at the time. cora got 2 warning, faer one, and was immediately muted |
| 18:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> But yes, moderators are charged with maintaining the peace of the chat space. It's not our job to generate ammunition that can be used against people later. |
| 18:10 |
ancientmariner |
i get that, and hope that peace is maintained, when rule breaches happen, and are ignored until the fallout occurs, it's already escalated |
| 18:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> You see this as Cora and Faer both being involved in an argument so they should both get equal punishment, but that's not how it works. Cora essentially got warned for baiting Faer, but it was Faer's choice to not only take the bait, but to escalate that rapidly, so quickly in fact, that wsor couldn't warn Cora immediately because he was too busy dealing with Faer. |
| 18:11 |
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| 18:12 |
ancientmariner |
cora's been baiting faer all month through alt accounts on our issue tracker |
| 18:12 |
ancientmariner |
it's taken it's toll |
| 18:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Well then that's something you probably need to deal with on your issue tracker I guess? |
| 18:13 |
ancientmariner |
of course, but when that baiting continues here, i'm just explaining the run up to it, so you understand |
| 18:14 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Sure, it's just that the run up to it isn't necessarily relevant here. IRC, discord, forums, etc. are not just a continuation of the issue tracker, and I'm pretty sure that the parties involved are already aware of that. |
| 18:15 |
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| 18:15 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Personally I've given up trying to figure out if one set of parties is "guilty" of anything or other; it just seems like at this point it's all just bad blood and "who started it" isn't necessarily even relevant anymore. |
| 18:16 |
ancientmariner |
i don't think we'll ever really resolve that one, and in that case, it's best jut to focus on it not continuing |
| 18:17 |
ancientmariner |
i would rather it ended now, i would have liked it to have ended a month ago, but hey |
| 18:17 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> y'all should just fork the project, each do your own thing, and then eventually both leadership teams will burn out anyway 😄 and then somebody can re-merge them some day later |
| 18:18 |
ancientmariner |
technically, it isn't a bad plan, but we have an active player base and we need to support them |
| 18:19 |
ancientmariner |
this project didn't have a maintainer and i've stepped in. i didn't want it and refused it when offered at first |
| 18:20 |
ancientmariner |
but when i saw it wasn't going to have one, i thought it best to put my name forward |
| 18:20 |
ancientmariner |
obviously, there is dissagreements about the handover process |
| 18:20 |
ancientmariner |
and i don't think there wil be agreement in that |
| 18:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Yeah, ultimately I guess somebody is going to have to get the name, while the other fork(s) will have to be like 5 or -ia and get a different name. They'll theoretically face an uphill battle for players ... but that's not necessarily a bad thing, from a "motivation" kind of standpoint, either... |
| 18:21 |
ancientmariner |
there is the name, the active discord, and over 700 issues on the issue tracker |
| 18:22 |
ancientmariner |
it's very hard to shut it down and start it again |
| 18:22 |
ancientmariner |
and probably not helpful |
| 18:22 |
ancientmariner |
they players don't care, they just want a working game |
| 18:22 |
ancientmariner |
but technically mineclone5 still exists and i think cora has access on that |
| 18:23 |
ancientmariner |
so there is 2 projects |
| 18:23 |
ancientmariner |
i spend most of my day dealing with fallout and reviewing code reviews. i'd rather be writing code :) |
| 18:24 |
ancientmariner |
but hey, someone's gotta do it |
| 18:24 |
ancientmariner |
i joined to rekindle my love for programming lol |
| 18:24 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> The MCP2 project is sketchy in multiple regards: It just states "GPL3" as license, which is plain illegal relicensing (considering some media appears to be CC BY-SA 3.0, f.E.). It lists cora as a (former) contributor (at the bottom of the list; other contributors such as the authors of the firefly code go unmentioned), but Git history seems to have been mostly squashed to one "Initial commit" megacommit. Please, do your homework properly, |
| 18:24 |
MTDiscord |
keep history and keep your licensing clean. |
| 18:24 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Also, it doesn't seem to link to cora's original project, despite apparently being a fork. |
| 18:25 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> This raises the question why the authors didn't simply fork cleanly. |
| 18:25 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> ancientmariner: If you want to hack away, hack away. Nobody is stopping you. Fallout and PRs can wait. |
| 18:26 |
ancientmariner |
cora deleted the original mineclone2 plus project when she left. faerraven had to recreate it. he cocked up on the history |
| 18:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The git history squashitude is probably not as big of a deal as people are making it out to be. People generally don't (and shouldn't) rely too heavily on git history for attribution, and it's pretty obvious when an "initial commit" is actually a historyless import of a giant project. |
| 18:26 |
ancientmariner |
he's a good dev, but his git needs some work |
| 18:26 |
ancientmariner |
the mineclone 2 plus project was originally my idea, and faer, cora, prairie all started on it |
| 18:27 |
ancientmariner |
i've provided the screenshot of the conversation that kicked it off |
| 18:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I've seen some people who are quite good at programming but their git history consists entirely of "files added by web upload" so frankly "his git needs some work" is totally believable in any context 😄 |
| 18:27 |
ancientmariner |
as for the licensing, i'll check that out. thanks for the heads up |
| 18:27 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> np |
| 18:28 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> basically you've got mods with individual licenses (probably only the fireflies who seem to be from MTG?) in there but this isn't acknowledged properly |
| 18:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Licensing being a mess is also totally expected. It needs to be fixed, of course, and somewhat urgently, but Hanlon's razor definitely applies there. |
| 18:29 |
ancientmariner |
point taken. i will look into it |
| 18:29 |
ancientmariner |
brb, food |
| 18:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Heterogeneous licensing is such a mess. I've got projects where the license says something like "you can use CC-BY-SA-4.0 for media, but if you want to know the specific author and original license terms, go digging through this tree of files to track it down." |
| 18:32 |
ancientmariner |
licensing is definitely a subject i'm new to and learning a lot every day |
| 18:32 |
ancientmariner |
though not a fan of the sweary do what you want licence |
| 18:34 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> ancientmariner: BTW, for the love of programming I'd recommend puzzles like AoC |
| 18:34 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Not the mess of MT and MCL ;) |
| 18:36 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> (AoC = Advent of Code) |
| 18:36 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I really gotta detach myself from Minetest folks |
| 18:36 |
MTDiscord |
<cora> P sure the other maintainers would be more active if they still were maintainers. You complain you didn't want it yet you removed them |
| 18:49 |
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| 18:51 |
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| 18:52 |
ancientmariner |
i did not remove them. That was nicu's call made before i became maintainer. You appointed 3 people, one who has other commitments in real life and cannot be active, one you almost booted out the week before, and one who hadn't been active for 3 months. You appointed every applicant other than me, and it was pretty apparent your motives weren't the best interests of the project. nicu stepped in and asked the developers to vote on it. they voted |
| 18:52 |
ancientmariner |
on it, and it didn't go the way you wanted |
| 18:58 |
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| 19:09 |
ancientmariner |
I'll check out the AoC. Thanks for the heads up |
| 19:09 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Why would you remove even inactive maintainers? That just reduces the chances they'll start becoming active maintainers again. |
| 19:09 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> (the same was proposed for MT - removing inactive core devs - but I think it's meritless) |
| 19:09 |
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| 19:10 |
ancientmariner |
if you promote inactive maintainers, then anyone who was active is going to feel that's a slap in the face. it's a double edged sword, i guess |
| 19:12 |
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| 19:12 |
MTDiscord |
<cora> Pretty sure thay was nicus call after you became maintainer but whatever... Nicu and you probably are the same person anyways lol |
| 19:13 |
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| 19:14 |
ancientmariner |
we aren't the one who admitted to using multiple accounts, but i lose track of the ones you've used in the past :) |
| 19:30 |
MTDiscord |
<cora> "Admitted to using multiple accounts" lol I told you and in private no less that I have not been treated like this using male sounding names. That does not ib fact imply I ever used multiple accounts simultaneously |
| 19:34 |
ancientmariner |
but funnily enough, after you've left, an account created 3 days after you'd been maintainer, contributing for 2 months (but never pushing on the same day as you) then dissappearing for 7 months re-appeared and carried on your grudges. it all felt a little too coincidental. they were at newbie level when they started and now at expert level, demonstrating an astounding level of progression when away that long... |
| 19:35 |
MTDiscord |
<cora> I kind of doubt you actually believe it though lol you're just using it |
| 19:35 |
ancientmariner |
i've had to re-evaulate what i believe, because this month, i've seen stuff i never would have believed |
| 19:35 |
MTDiscord |
<cora> Again believe what you like. Its one of the silliest things sonfar though |
| 19:35 |
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| 19:36 |
ancientmariner |
cybil attacks are silly, but here we go |
| 19:37 |
kabou |
hi I am cora |
| 19:37 |
kabou |
I am also ancientmariner |
| 19:38 |
MTDiscord |
<cora> Its amazing how you keep saying I'm attacking yoy when you are the one making silly accusations lol |
| 19:38 |
kabou |
but don't just tell him so, he'll freak out |
| 19:38 |
MTDiscord |
<cora> Whatever you suppose I did to you must have been very bad |
| 19:38 |
kabou |
and I am wsor appguru and rubenwardy, no less |
| 19:39 |
kabou |
that's not paranoid at all |
| 19:39 |
ancientmariner |
oh look, incredible timing |
| 19:39 |
ancientmariner |
multiple irc clients... |
| 19:39 |
ancientmariner |
never seen you on here, but the moment it's mentioned, boof, here you are |
| 19:39 |
ancientmariner |
vpn much? |
| 19:39 |
kabou |
other than these frank admissions, I have nothing else to add here to the drama |
| 19:40 |
wsor |
lol, hi self, aka kabou |
| 19:40 |
MTDiscord |
<cora> Sorry again you are clearly a shining example of a human being I am sorry for ever disagreeing with you |
| 19:42 |
FavoritoHJS |
what fresh drama do we have here? |
| 19:43 |
ancientmariner |
kabou, the account that reappered and carried on cora's grudges the moment she left... |
| 19:44 |
FavoritoHJS |
can i get a tldr of what is going on in this inferno we call chat? |
| 19:47 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> tldr: mineclone2 |
| 19:48 |
FavoritoHJS |
that's... bad. hopefully this doesn't escalate into a full-blown breakup |
| 19:48 |
ancientmariner |
maintainer left because other maintainer wouldn't step down, started carrying on grudges through alts for over a month... |
| 19:48 |
muurkha |
denies carrying on grudges through alts, should be noted |
| 19:51 |
kabou |
ancientmariner there is a quite simple and sufficient explanation: after appgurueu appeared on the dumpster fire thread that is https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2-Plus/issues/1 it made me suspect that some mention had been made on minetest irc. When I looked it up on irc.minetest.net, this turned out to be the case. I also |
| 19:51 |
kabou |
noticed that you had been mentioning me here and making baseless claims about me. Today I check again and you are still doing it. So I popped up for the occasion. |
| 19:51 |
MTDiscord |
<cora> New maintainer tells bs stories hehe |
| 19:51 |
ancientmariner |
sure... |
| 19:52 |
kabou |
of course you will twist all that to suit your obvious and silly paranoia.. |
| 19:52 |
* kabou |
gonna sit back and eat popcorn |
| 19:54 |
ancientmariner |
imagine admitting to using alts and pretending that didn't happen afterwards |
| 19:56 |
MTDiscord |
<cora> Yes thats clearly what I'm doing |
| 19:58 |
FavoritoHJS |
in a scale from "minor drama" to "project-ending" how bad is this? |
| 20:00 |
ancientmariner |
not really. all other devs are contributing and carrying on. it's just tiresome |
| 20:04 |
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| 20:10 |
Bombo |
hi, may i interrupt with some on topic question? i'm trying to set this egg on fire: https://imgur.com/kTIa0vF but the fire won't go atr the same position as the egg as it did before, in previous versions, but i don't know what part changed that, is it the minetest client? the minetest_game or the mod (draconis) whose fault is it? and is it fixable? |
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| 20:37 |
MTDiscord |
<Faerraven> if the egg node is not marked as flammable, it's not going to burn. So, look for it's definition. My guess, that would be somewhere in the mod that added it in (like Draconis) |
| 20:38 |
MTDiscord |
<Faerraven> And, the "is it fixable" -- everything coded is fixable. you just have to know how to fix it. |
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Bombo |
mkay |
| 21:01 |
Bombo |
i got it now, there has to be bones around the egg then it's flammabnle |
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