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IRC log for #minetest, 2022-12-29

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:05 fluxionary query: how do other people interpret the "eyes" emoji when its used to comment on an issue/comment/PR?
00:06 al1f[m]1 fluxionary: "I'll look into it", also "That's very peculiar", "I didn't know about that!"
00:07 fluxionary for me, i've read it as either "interesting, i want to keep an eye on this", or "that's sus(picious)" not necessarily in a good way
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03:14 muurkha fluxionary: I thought it was just "I have seen this"
03:15 muurkha this is always the problem with pure ideographic writing systems
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04:58 Parnikkapore_m Personally, eyes emoji means "wait what??" by default
04:59 Parnikkapore_m pretty close to "that's very peculiar"
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07:48 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> fluxionary: usually it's meant in a surprised way, in that it raises eyebrows (usually in a good way)
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07:51 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> I think it comes from discord where we have about a dozen different eye emojis to harass messages we find to be especially interesting, it spills over into other places such as github
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18:25 definitelya This is sad, Mineclone 2 won't last much unless Wuzzy finds a better team soon. ruben was right. https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2-Plus/issues/1
18:26 MTDiscord <Jonathon> wuzzy doesnt own the project anymore
18:26 definitelya I regrettably keep eating my popcorn, anyhow.
18:26 definitelya Jonathon: Yes, I only wish he could help somehow. :\
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18:57 rubenwardy honestly, not impressed with recent events there
19:01 rubenwardy also, I would ban anyone that does legal threats, it's toxic asf
19:02 MTDiscord <PrairieWind> 🍿
19:11 definitelya I meant they could help.
19:29 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> alright I opened my fridge, what drama does mineclone have in store now
19:31 MTDiscord <PrairieWind> depends
19:31 MTDiscord <PrairieWind> I havent seen anything yet today in my feeds/alerts
19:35 definitelya fufu
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20:47 muurkha what were the recent events and legal threats?
20:51 MTDiscord <PrairieWind> suing for libel on the international criminal court
20:52 muurkha who sued who for saying what when?
20:52 MTDiscord <PrairieWind> which, correct me if im wrong, seems weird because I learned that libel is usually a civil suit. Then again, I am not a lawyer
20:52 MTDiscord <Jonathon> link?
20:53 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ah, in the mc2-plus issue
20:56 muurkha pretty sure libel isn't included in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court#Subject-matter_jurisdiction_requirements
20:57 MTDiscord <Jonathon> to be fair, no one said the drama/situation/etc made any sense
20:58 sfan5 wtf is an international criminal court
20:58 muurkha see link
20:58 rubenwardy The recent events is the dev burnout and hostile takeover
21:05 muurkha MineClone2 had a hostile takeover?
21:05 muurkha because Wuzzy got burnt out?
21:06 muurkha is it similar to what happened with VanessaE?
21:07 MTDiscord <Jonathon> wuzzy turned it over to fleck who then turned it over to cora, cora turned it over to three people, but nico, the community manager, didnt like that and held an election that not that many people participated in, putting there choice as project lead
21:09 MTDiscord <Jonathon> see https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues/3047 for the vote
21:15 rubenwardy Cora was the burnout
21:17 mmuller looking at that issue thread, it's all very confusing.
21:17 mmuller Can't we all just get along? ;-)
21:18 muurkha I see
21:18 muurkha what a mess
21:18 muurkha thanks for explaining
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21:20 MinetestUser "Can't we all just get along? ;-)" is like saying can the arsonist not set the building on fire after the deed is done tbh
21:20 MinetestUser essentially the only way it would work is the building owner just accepting the crime and moving on
21:22 muurkha sometimes that is the best available solution, though sometimes there are more effective dispute resolution mechanisms available
21:22 muurkha the ICC is not one of them
21:23 MinetestUser to be clear, the arsonist in this situation is nicu/kenkoo
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22:11 MTDiscord <Vagankovo> Finally, a drama to be put into a book on par with Wikipedia edit wars
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22:42 MTDiscord <Nicu> it was not a hostile takeover, cora threatened to leave if I wouldn't step down, which she did when I didn't go along with her blackmail
22:42 MTDiscord <Nicu> and while I didn't like the super low participation in votes, we had to move on, as we had no lead maintainer and someone needed to take over
22:42 MTDiscord <Nicu> it's as simple as that
22:45 MTDiscord <Nicu> and I find it pretty annoying that the Minetest developers don't care to look into the details but pass on their own (wrong) interpretation as valid
22:46 rubenwardy I regretfully read all those issues
22:49 MTDiscord <cora> well i'm not going to start any drama but a) it wasn't blackmail it was because you repeatedly kept attacking me when i would have needed your support the most. As i'm sure ive told you. and b) I had named people who would have taken over. there was no need to rush it like that, you didn't even make a separate issue for it and kept the 24 hours to the second lol (and then you removed the other maintainers).
22:51 ancientmariner_ you wasn't going to call it down the middle, you picked on developer that hadn't been involved in 3 months and another you virtually kicked out the week before. you put your own grudges above what was best for the project. i don't see how your decision is more important than the active developers that are there and continue to be there
22:51 ancientmariner_ the contributors, not the maintainers are the ones who make mineclone 2 what it is
22:53 MTDiscord <cora> i don't see what was wrong with the ones i had picked but let's not do this
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22:54 MTDiscord <Faerraven> What's toxic af is attacking a person, getting told to apologize to them, and then launching an attack campaign where you and friends attack a specific person daily for 38 days.  That's toxic af
22:55 MinetestUser "the contributors, not the maintainers are the ones who make mineclone 2 what it is" yet the maintainer was one of the biggest contributors. at least from looking at commits anyways
22:55 ancientmariner_ i really don't want to do this. i'm bored of all the drama, yet an account that was created 3 days after you took over as maintainer, contributed for 2 months (but never pushed a branch on the same day as you), dissappeared for 7 months and came back immediately when you left and has been stirring up dissent. coincidence?
22:55 ancientmariner_ commits are a weird metric, some features had 40 commits, and probably didn't justify more than 7
22:56 ancientmariner_ cora was an excellent contributor, don't get me wrong, but many put the work in
22:56 MTDiscord <Faerraven> If we're going by commits, my commits are on par with ms. cora's.
22:56 MTDiscord <Jonathon> if your refering to kabou, you saying that there the same person is rather funny
22:57 ancientmariner_ hi wsor, you called  this a hostile takeover from day 1, i'm not surprised by your position
22:57 ancientmariner_ i don't think anything would persuade you otherwise
22:58 MTDiscord <Jonathon> do more research, including irc, i doubt you would see the same person talking to themselves/arguing with themselves, but 🤷
22:58 MTDiscord <Jonathon> anyways, im out
22:59 MTDiscord <Faerraven> I've seen people do that... just saying
22:59 MTDiscord <Nicu> have you really read the following? cora knew all along what my role was, she knew why I didn't contribute code, but she entertained the idea that I didn't contribute code, to get people side with her on making me step down - the real reason being I didn't support her mistakes https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2-Plus/issues/1#issuecomment-52659
23:00 ancientmariner_ i've done plenty of research, and you'd be suprised... someone who contributed for 2 months, has the knowledge of years, and comes back to carry on a feud with michieal/nicu despite claiming to not be on discord.... there are plenty more stuff, but if you don't want to see something, you won't
23:01 MTDiscord <Nicu> and for someone who publicly claims to work in a mental health institution, she should have a much better understanding of mental health issues, and it's why her behaviour towards me - fully knowingly of my role and situation - was completely unacceptable
23:03 ancientmariner_ i really don't know what the expectation is that we should have done? she said she wouldn't stay unless nicu was removed. were we supposed to entertain that ultimatum? especially when nicu only reminded her that she had wronged a developer and should consider an apology. this was followed by a multi day tirade insulting 3 people on discord before leaving
23:06 definitelya Yikes, gonna go too.
23:07 sfan5 <+MTDiscord> <Nicu> and I find it pretty annoying that the Minetest developers don't care to look into the details but pass on their own (wrong) interpretation as valid
23:08 sfan5 fyi i'm pretty sure rubenwardy is speaking his personal opinion here, not in his position as a Minetest developer
23:09 ancientmariner_ the other day, there was sniping, michieal responded, and got muted for it. i really don't want to discuss this here, but when there is regular attacks on the project and any response is silenced, it's dissappointing
23:09 MTDiscord <Nicu> it makes no difference if he wears an official hat or not, his take is wrong and it puts the current MineClone2 team in a bad light
23:09 ancientmariner_ i would rather it just wasn't discussed, or put in a blameless way "conflicts and disagreements"
23:10 rubenwardy I think the mcl2 teams puts themselves in a bad light, the issue tracker should have never gotten that toxic
23:11 ancientmariner_ we have several devs that work hard and put in their spare time to make stuff for players. and their project is getting bashed
23:11 ancientmariner_ i agree ruben, and it's been antagonised recently by cora and kabou
23:11 ancientmariner_ who i believe are the same person
23:12 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> ...really?
23:12 MTDiscord <Nicu> Minetest and other projects have their own share of toxic stuff, it just happens sometimes, but in this case you don't just look at the toxic stuff without looking at what made it happen
23:12 ancientmariner_ the issue raised previously, "project was stolen" was originally not coras idea, and deleted by her, and then accussed of being stolen. i've provided evidence of the origin
23:12 ancientmariner_ (the repo was deleted by cora on leaving)
23:14 ancientmariner_ i also have evidence of cora openly admitting using male sounding names in the past
23:15 ancientmariner_ but hey for the last month, i've defended over 3 contributors against kabou laying into them on prs. it's exhausting
23:19 MTDiscord <Faerraven> oh, wait -- Am I going to get muted again, while others don't? I mean because that was fun
23:20 ancientmariner_ i personally don't mind what people think or say of me, but when the project gets bashed, the work of all contributors get attacked. when people are being dissuaded in minetest discord against playing mineclone 2, it is a slap in the face of all of them
23:20 ancientmariner_ i would hope the place was about encouraging people to play games and enjoy whatever they enjoy, regardless of personal opinions
23:20 MTDiscord <Faerraven> Why would anyone in minetest care about the most downloaded game for their engine?
23:21 MTDiscord <Faerraven> I mean, just look at their github issues. Pressing issues open for 5+ years.  Shows a lot of caring.
23:23 MTDiscord <Faerraven> SO does blaming the games when they have to make work arounds and bandaids for the engine, that the engine update breaks the game... I believe that it went something like this: The game dev's need to stop breaking their game with crap code.
23:23 MTDiscord <Nicu> this doesn't help, everyone has their own priorities and lack of spare time, ourselves included
23:23 MTDiscord <Faerraven> I agree with Ceejus, this backyard stick fort of an engine.
23:23 ancientmariner_ that isn't helping. minetest devs do a solid job and do the best they can in their spare time
23:24 MTDiscord <Faerraven> well, when you blame others for things, and don't ever look at yourself, of course you're going to side with others that do the exact same things.
23:24 ancientmariner_ they've provided a great engine we can build upon and many mcl2 devs have created a great game based on that
23:25 MTDiscord <Faerraven> And, if anyone speaks up, as I personally experienced, they get muted.
23:25 MTDiscord <Faerraven> so yeah.... not a fan.
23:25 ancientmariner_ don't get me wrong, it was wrong you got muted, and i don't think that was called down the middle
23:26 MTDiscord <Faerraven> no, it wasn't -- at least I got them to hang a neon sign on it
23:26 mazes_80 I recently tried to drop some efforts to mcl2 (very modest things). I've been encouraged by all team and appreciated community. Sometimes things may slip out of control, but don't forget the good side
23:26 MTDiscord <Faerraven> thank you
23:26 ancientmariner_ thanks mazes_80 :)
23:28 MTDiscord <Faerraven> It's funny to me - the only reason why I am here, is to help Mineclone users, and to use ~api.
23:32 sfan5 is this a generic "coredevs are bad" rant or does it somehow relate to the previously discussed point?
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23:33 MTDiscord <cora> > i also have evidence of cora openly admitting using male sounding names in the past I have also repeatedly told you that I am not doing that now and even pointed you to mountains of evidence to suggest otherwise.
23:33 ancientmariner_ Faerraven has been targetted for a month or more, he's a little frustrated. He doesn't mean what he says
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23:35 MTDiscord <cora> yes poor fearraven
23:35 ancientmariner_ why is an account that was created around 3 days after you became maintainer, and contributed for 2 months, dissappearing for 7 months returned when you left and targetted the two people you had a grudge with (faerraven and nicu), and tried to frustrate prs you were against, and push the  coding standards bug bears you pushed. its a bit too coincidental to me
23:36 MTDiscord <cora> i'm not entertaining this any further lol
23:39 ancientmariner_ he's also a little frustrated that wsor was involved in discussions bashing mcl2 and the moment he responded, he got muted by wsor on discord. this is after wsor openly made it clear he was fully supportive of cora, including sniping and saying a change he did was stupid
23:40 ancientmariner_ but that isn't indicative of the core team, it was 1 individual and that frustration was misplaced
23:41 ancientmariner_ but i'm a little tired of this all, there is some really talented people here, and it would be great to learn from them. the mcl2 bashing isn't ideal, especially from senior folk with minetest
23:41 ancientmariner_ within*
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23:49 MTDiscord <Fatalist error> was it running?

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