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IRC log for #minetest, 2022-04-23

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Time Nick Message
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00:20 settl3r[m] This Mesecraft_UHC you uploaded is absolutely ultra-fantastic :) it is the most immersive game i tried out so far, also thanks to the nature & ambience (i encountered some wild jungle-beast shortly after the beginning ^^), it is even better than the online servers i played so far (including the hardcore servers). i... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/d6f29fd63111a6e75ba682b3797a53c2cc2f9ecf)
00:20 settl3r[m] MisterE
00:22 settl3r[m] one is stamina?
00:22 settl3r[m] * is stamina the other poisoning?
00:28 MisterE[m] <settl3r[m]> "one is stamina?" <- um... I there is poison, but its the same as the hunger bar... and only works for mushrooms. The other bar is the mana bar, its the magic power bar. You lose it when you use magic items that can be found or crafted, and it then regenerates
00:28 MisterE[m] s/I//
00:29 MisterE[m] If you like mesecraft, check out the website, there is a forum there. mesecraft.com
00:29 MisterE[m] you can play on the original mesecraft server or on Centeria Survival if you want (non-UHC) online play
00:31 settl3r[m] oh i prefer non-PvP+UHC gameplay over PvP (without UHC) gameplay
00:31 settl3r[m] also i prefer to have that world on my computer (but without manipulating it)
00:32 settl3r[m] so that anything i build, can't ever get destroyed without my acceptance
00:32 MisterE[m] so the bars are: (top to bottom, right to left): Hunger, Mana, Health, Armor, thirst, breath
00:33 MisterE[m] settl3r[m]: yeah I get that
00:33 settl3r[m] ahh.. thank you for the infos, so that white empty bar is armor..
00:34 MisterE[m] you should be able to collect some wooden armor easily
00:34 settl3r[m] (that mana bar changed fill-status while i tested, already, i dont know if what i ate changed it)
00:34 settl3r[m] found some jungle food
00:34 MisterE[m] it does that automatically when not using magic items
00:34 settl3r[m] ah ok
00:35 MisterE[m] watch out for jungle and poison slimes, they are nasty
00:35 settl3r[m] i guess, jungles also have dangerous wildlife.. tigers?
00:35 MisterE[m] oh, type /bgm
00:35 settl3r[m] (i heard some beast roaring nearby ^^)
00:35 MisterE[m] that will turn on background music
00:35 settl3r[m] oh cool
00:36 settl3r[m] but i prefer the natural ambience
00:36 MisterE[m] ok... it doesnt get rid of it tho :)
00:36 settl3r[m] the rolling sea waves are awesome, never heard these
00:36 MisterE[m] oh the bgm mod isnt there after all
00:36 MisterE[m] I must have only installed it on the server
00:37 settl3r[m] i (mostly) never play games with music - i always disable these first (after changing language to english)
00:38 MisterE[m] Well, I accidentally just tested what happens when you die. You get kicked and cannot log in as singleplayer again
00:38 settl3r[m] the music would distract me , i'm not that music-affin either ^^
00:38 MisterE[m] you could log in using the host server option, as another player, but the singleplayer game is over.
00:38 settl3r[m] perfect, so uhc mode works
00:39 settl3r[m] (i made just one savegame, after entering the game for the first time (plus the save-backup i made before i entered it))
00:39 settl3r[m] s/savegame/save-backup/
00:40 MisterE[m] let me know how it goes not regenning health. Imo it would be awful. but if you make it work Id love to know!
00:41 settl3r[m] you think, UHC is unplayably hard in MeseCraft?
00:41 MisterE[m] I have no idea. I mean, You know what you wanted, and I think this is that.
00:42 MisterE[m] there are items you can get to heal yourself
00:42 MisterE[m] so its not impossible
00:42 settl3r[m] maybe i have to adapt my house-rule a bit, to allow me save-backups, until i have achieved a first milestone or so.. (?)
00:42 settl3r[m] could that break my immersion?
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00:42 MisterE[m] IDK..., im not good at playing
00:43 MisterE[m] like, Im a minetest modder, so I dont play minetest very well becuase I know all about it
00:43 MisterE[m] there was a time when I was a player
00:44 MisterE[m] but... I didnt do UHC
00:44 MisterE[m] and I ont think its my style
00:44 MisterE[m] s/ont/dont/
00:45 settl3r[m] i couldn't ever enjoy a non-hardcore offline world again, it would have at least be (non-ultra-)hardcore, for me, to not get bored playing it
00:45 MisterE[m] yeah I can see that the challenge of UHC is what could make the game fun
00:45 settl3r[m] u-hc is just the spice on top of it :)
00:46 MisterE[m] for me, minetest is all about its networking capabilities, its a social app :)
00:47 MisterE[m] I pretty much use singleplayer worlds exclusively for testing
00:47 settl3r[m] i like the sandbox freedom aspect the most, that as player, we can play like we want, without having to do any artificial quests
00:47 settl3r[m] * i like the sandbox/freeform aspect the most, that as player, we can play like we want, without having to do any artificial quests
00:48 settl3r[m] these games offer the most freedom and flow, for me
00:49 MisterE[m] That too... tho its nice to have artifical quests within the open world also
00:50 settl3r[m] (but any "quests" which emerge naturally because of the game mechanics, are ok, of course)
00:50 MisterE[m] hmm... Mesecraft has a at least one of those
00:50 MisterE[m] my version has 2
00:50 MisterE[m] or a continuation of the first I guess
00:51 settl3r[m] i mean, i dont mind optional side-quests, given by NPCs, but these should be purely optional, and shouldn't give stuff which one cant obtain otherwise
00:51 MisterE[m] hint: just keep going ... down... all the way...
00:51 settl3r[m] yay.. the adventure awaits ^^
00:51 MisterE[m] you will come across many many many environments
00:51 MisterE[m] then theres the nether
00:51 settl3r[m] this reminds me of Dwarf Fortress, cool
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00:52 MisterE[m] yeah, it has the mod df_caverns
00:52 settl3r[m] in DF, one can also dig down, if getting bored, and then re-discover !Fun! ^^
00:52 MisterE[m] which adds a bunch of dwarf fortress caverns
00:53 settl3r[m] *"Losing is Fun!"* ^^
00:53 settl3r[m] * _"Losing is Fun!"_ ^^  (in DF)
00:53 settl3r[m] but i would ofc not want to lose (i.e. die)
00:53 settl3r[m] * (i.e. die), in MT
00:53 MisterE[m] re:nether which is not accessible until you reach the lowest level of df_caverns and uncover the portalstone, you probably will not want to go there, as I have made it super-OP
00:53 settl3r[m] (losing items is ok, though)
00:54 MisterE[m] in the nether in the version you have, you are unlikely to live long even with the best armor
00:54 MisterE[m] It was supposed to be a challenge for when dying just meant that you would respawn
00:54 settl3r[m] wow... sounds like i have a possible late-game "quest" now.. :D
00:55 settl3r[m] ..Omega-Quest: Build an unconquerable fortress in the most dangerous zone of the world xD
00:56 MisterE[m] ... yeah good luck lol... The mobs down there are very griefy
00:56 MisterE[m] altho there might be certian blocks that are blast resistant
00:57 settl3r[m] yay! this game will be perfect for me ^^ thank you again, you have given me a great gift :)
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00:57 settl3r[m] can others download this UHC-version, too?
00:57 settl3r[m] (i wonder how far other players will come, in it..)
00:58 settl3r[m] s/come,/advance/
00:58 MisterE[m] ofc... its a public git repo
00:59 settl3r[m] oh, have to go offline in ~a minute..
00:59 settl3r[m] thanks for the chat and everything! 👍️
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01:05 MisterE[m] Oh settl3r: id like to see if you manage to tame a dragon in uhc mode XD
01:10 erle when you make mod soups, do you use git submodules or git subtrees?
01:10 MisterE[m] It depends on preference
01:12 MisterE[m] erle: for mesecraft we just have a single git repo, no sub anything. For aes_game, I have submodules for almost all mods
01:12 MisterE[m] That makes sense because either I or zughy maintains almost all mods in aes_game
01:13 MisterE[m] Btw, aes_game is the game running on my minigames server, it has all the mods for making a minigame server
01:14 MisterE[m] All my minigames, most if not all of zughy's (tho they may be out of date, I should fix that)
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02:19 gh00p what is mesecraft? a mod, or a server, or both? or something else?
02:21 MTDiscord <MisterE> a game
02:21 MTDiscord <MisterE> also, there are 3 servers running it
02:22 MTDiscord <MisterE> its a game of the mod soup variety
02:22 MTDiscord <MisterE> basically minetestgame, but modded extensively
02:22 MTDiscord <MisterE> so that it has a full world with tons to do
02:24 erle mesecraft is one of the best mod soups
02:24 erle i like their tnt man
02:24 erle it's an NPC looking like a player
02:24 erle with a TNT texture
02:24 erle also explody
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09:04 Gustavo6046 https://qoiformat.org/
09:04 Gustavo6046 could be nice for loading the media files (textures and sprites)
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09:14 MTDiscord <luatic> No.
09:17 MTDiscord <luatic> I've had a look at this already and while it may be simple, there's little support for it. PNG is a decent format; load times may be longer because PNG is more complex, but this also allows PNGs to achieve significantly better compression in some cases. I don't think PNG load times make up the bulk of media loading though; IIRC that time is rather spent on rehashing the files on disk (NTM that network or disk reading are again more likely
09:17 MTDiscord to be bottlenecks than decompression).
09:17 MTDiscord <luatic> erle
09:18 MTDiscord <luatic> Furthermore, for our particular use case PNG has certain features (such as the palette) which make it nearly optimal
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09:19 MTDiscord <luatic> I wouldn't want to trade larger file sizes for better encoding speeds.
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11:26 MTDiscord <SX> probably support for different formats could be added but doing so might cause some problems. however for media it should be possible to use one name in code and then provide .png, .qoi, .whatever files, possibly set preferred in config and let engine find out what you actually have around.
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12:36 aoki webp looks very decent
12:36 aoki sometimes you might want lossy compression too
12:36 aoki for realistic textures for example
12:37 ROllerozxa jpeg is a thing though
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13:18 aoki webp is better
13:18 aoki it can do both loseless and lossy
13:23 ROllerozxa webp lossless is larger than png, webp lossy is about the same filesize as mozjpeg's jpeg encoder
13:24 ROllerozxa that's what I've seen from various benchmarks, webp doesn't really seem to be the magic bullet image format unfortunately
13:29 Oblomov jpeg xl is the future
13:31 MTDiscord <luatic> We don't even need the future
13:31 MTDiscord <luatic> Swapping media file formats isn't a priority at all I'd say, PNG has server Minetest and many other game engines very well over the years
13:32 MTDiscord <luatic> There is no problem to be solved here in the first place, just some minor optimizations to a current solution for which there really is very little need
13:33 MTDiscord <Warr1024> webp would be nice, though opus is probably a higher priority.  MT games tend to use low-res textures, but high-res audio, so audio compression has a bigger impact on media size than textures, for non-pathologically-designed media.
13:34 aoki luatic: I agree, it's not solving anything
13:34 aoki ROllerozxa, what about lossy png vs lossy webp? lol
13:35 ROllerozxa wat
13:39 aoki https://pngquant.org/
13:39 aoki though I guess it's a bit ridiculous
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14:16 MTDiscord <SX> just add pluggable decoders / encoder...
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14:24 MTDiscord <SX> pluggable everything and contentdb to distributes libraries. "please install mod, webp, svg and midi decoders before joining this server"
14:25 MTDiscord <Jonathon> Kinda breaks one of the main points of minetest, being able to just connect to a server
14:26 MTDiscord <SX> "sorry but midi decoder is not available for your platform"
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15:20 aoki lmao
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15:47 definitelya I just witnessed my first quids in 4chan, I grant upon thee the residual energy, #minetest.
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16:02 erle <luatic> Furthermore, for our particular use case PNG has certain features (such as the palette) which make it nearly optimal
16:02 erle hahaha
16:02 erle i invite you to figure out how many textures from minetest_game are smaller as a paletted TGA ;)
16:03 erle in terms of game textures, what is “optimal” for loading time is if you can just memcpy over the pixels
16:03 erle obviously, that clashes with small filesize
16:04 erle i wonder if texture atlases make loading noticeably faster. has anyone experimented with it?
16:05 erle <Gustavo6046> you are mentioning QOI because you read about it on hacker news, right?
16:06 erle if so: taking advice from hacker news about file formats is like taking advice from stack overflow about code
16:07 erle it will always seem to make sense and there is a big chance it might be a) subtly wrong b) not match your use case c) the blind leading the blind
16:10 erle i experimented with loading times and filesizes a lot and PNG is not optimal, but a) good enough for *most* purposes b) widely supported. that's way more important than whatever gains you can have.
16:18 erle luatic  Gustavo6046 about PNG being “optimal”, look at this hehe https://mister-muffin.de/p/mxMx.txt
16:20 erle mods/mtg_craftguide/textures/craftguide_furnace.png is a funny case tbh
16:20 MTDiscord <Warr1024> 🙄
16:21 erle this is the same bullshit as when someone called for webp support btw
16:21 MTDiscord <GoodClover> accept-encoding for MT when 🙃
16:21 erle what?
16:22 MTDiscord <GoodClover> Wait sorry it's just Accept:
16:23 erle (google's webp propaganda is that it is smaller than jpeg, but they only test against the reference implementation cjpeg. mozjpeg is about as good or better than webp for almost all image dimensions except a narrow range that rarely occurs in minetest.)
16:23 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Ultimately it seems rather silly that we have to argue over each and every file format and include or exclude support for them individually, when most other game engines just support a wide variety, and probably most just pull in some existing image library to abstract this crap away.
16:23 erle i agree
16:24 erle well, not fully
16:24 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It's very impractical to try to maintain something intended as an "engine" for broad use-cases while also having a severe allergy to dependencies.  Like, I applaud the idea of keeping it lightweight but it'd probably be better to just link in a thing that does what we want instead of having to statically compile in everything anyway.
16:25 erle most game engines have it abstracted, but usually they have one “fast-loading” memcpy-friendly format (most of the time i have seen TGA) and one or more commonly used formats (like PNG or JPEG).
16:25 erle commonly used outside of games
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16:25 erle regardless
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16:26 MTDiscord <Warr1024> TGA and webp would both be fine to support, if we just didn't put ourselves in a position where we had to cherry-pick formats.
16:26 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I think thinks like PNG and webp would work better with tile sheets, whereas if we continue to ship textures as individual files, yes you can end up in a position where formats with less header overhead like TGA can win.
16:26 erle TGA is supported (and has to be for the foreseeable future)
16:27 erle only if you look at filesizes
16:27 erle looking at filesizes for files around 100 bytes (which are most of them) is stupid anyway
16:27 erle i think it's super silly that irrlicht has it abstracted away and then a bunch of interesting formats were deleted after being supported for a LONG time
16:28 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I'm not too worried about shrinking a 300 byte file into a 250 byte file anyway, if it's going to increase the complexity of managing assets in my projects.  Knowing that every image will be a png makes it easier to run automated processes over all the textures.
16:29 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Honestly I'm not sure how a 900kb download ends up creating a 2MB media cache, but I'm not that concerned about the images at that point.
16:29 erle not always! as i have explained before, TGAs can be edited way easier than PNGs (if uncompressed).
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16:29 erle Warr1024 each file uses more on disk than it contains characters, because disks are quantized
16:30 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Audio files are a bit more of a pain, since I'm actually forced to make a loss compromise decision.  With lossless formats, I only have to run some automated process to optimize them, but with lossy formats, I have to weigh a trade-off.
16:30 erle ; printf 'abcdefgh' >/tmp/test.txt; wc -c </tmp/test.txt; du -h /tmp/test.txt
16:30 erle 8
16:30 erle 4,0K/tmp/test.txt
16:30 erle you see, this 8 byte file takes up 4K!
16:31 Oblomov tried to build master, got an ominous warning:
16:31 erle which is way more important than any overhead a file format could have
16:31 Oblomov /usr/bin/ld: warning: libgmp.so.10, needed by /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/librtmp.so.1, may conflict with libgmp.so.3
16:33 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Hmm, okay, things HAVE changed since my last analysis.  NodeCore is 1212050 bytes downloaded, but 882141 bytes in the media cache.  At least things are as they should be now...
16:33 erle i believe that the overhead of filesystems for many small files is one reason why irrlicht supports loading from WAD and ZIP files directly. but a) that was never used in minetest, even though mods come as zip files (probably because of load times?) b) it's not in irrlichtmt since hecks killed it, along with everything that *might* be useful but was not used
16:33 erle in the end, you have a CPU vs disk space tradeoff
16:34 erle almost always
16:34 MTDiscord <Warr1024> IIRC zip loading could be nice, since (1) zip files are organized such that individual files are accessible, (2) reading and decompressing can be faster than reading alone if the disk is slow*, and (3) we probably rarely ever seek within a file, we mostly just read file-at-a-time.
16:35 MTDiscord <Warr1024> * even in cases where the disk is NOT slow, you can still end up with faster load times AND less CPU use because you're trading decompression work for fewer syscalls...
16:35 erle [citation needed]
16:35 Calinou QOI is nice for special use cases, but for general-purpose games, it's not useful
16:35 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Yeah, I've never seen an actual verifiable example of a system with syscalls that inefficient, it was purely apocryphal.
16:35 Calinou specialized fields were waiting for a fast lossless compressed format for a _long_ time, but games are not one of them :)
16:36 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It was also, oddly, in the context of HTTP compression...
16:36 erle btw, if you want to have fast encoding or loading times, you also have to consider how many passes you need to make over the data
16:37 MTDiscord <luatic> erle: I don't claim PNG space optimality - it carries too much "network" for that - but as said, it's pretty close.
16:37 erle luatic it has about 70 bytes overhead for texture files that are around 100 bytes. that is not “close”
16:38 erle i have mentioned it before that the [PNG texture modifier will always be followed by over 90 characters of garbage, even only for one pixel PNG
16:41 erle regardless, this is a useless discussion
16:42 erle the only formats that are a) used b) have distinguishing features from similar ones are JPEG, PNG, TGA. and all of them still have implementation bugs after so many years.
16:42 erle well, i haven't *verified that for JPEG
16:42 erle i should make JPEG test nodes later hehe
16:43 erle PBM would be useful for inline use in texture modifiers, but i doubt anyone who thinks the [PNG texture modifier was a good idea would okay that
16:45 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I don't see a reason why we shouldn't allow [jpeg, [tga, etc. for all the image formats we support; presumably they all would work pretty much the same.  The only question would be whether anyone has hopes to deprecate any of those formats in the future, and thus doesn't want to expand the load they already bear.
16:45 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Ideally I'd love just an [img modifier that takes any supported format, but there are also some hard lessons to learn out there about over-relying on file magic to determine type, and if you'd have to have [img:type=png: then you might as well just have [png
16:47 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I can see [jpeg being useful due to it's small size for larger textures
16:47 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Hell, I'd love to see svg supported, if it weren't a nightmare arguably worse than all the other existing formats compbined XD
16:48 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> SVG would be something we'd want to have a mostly plug 'n play library for
16:48 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> It's..insane
16:49 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The spec for it is byzantine and I've never seen anything that actually renders them correctly independent of the editor you used to create it and the features they support.  It's also IIRC possible to create SVGs that require arbitrarily complex work to actually render.
16:49 MTDiscord <Warr1024> So MT "supports SVG already" in the sense that if you want to use them and then write your own build scripts to bake them into a raster before release, go for it 😆
16:50 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Hell, SVG has the ability to mostly replace HTML, GUI toolkits, and other graphical document and description languages
16:50 MTDiscord <Warr1024> That's about the best I expect for the foreseeable future.  The engine would just have to do that anyway, even if we did support it there.
16:50 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Oh, right, SVGs can reference external stuff like fonts.  Nightmare fuel
16:50 Calinou the SVG specification is an operating system disguised as a vector format :P
16:51 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Animations, JavaScript interactions, external references, embedded raster images, actual GUI elements, CSS
16:51 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> It's...crazy
16:52 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Even just a sane subset of it (e.g. stuff that could be easily baked into a static raster image) leaves in all the filter mess.
16:52 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I feel like writing an SVG renderer is about as difficult as a new HTML renderer
16:52 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> If not more
16:52 MTDiscord <Warr1024> My go-to for SVG rendering has been to just automate inkscape with a script.  This of course only works well for images that are also created in inkscape.
16:55 erle SVG tiny exists
16:56 erle Warr1024 inkscape also has made the absolutely disgusting decision to change export flags in minor versions
16:57 Calinou ThorVG is a library that seems to be working fairly well if you want a self-contained SVG rasterizing library
16:57 Calinou it's still relatively large
16:57 Calinou it makes sense to include in a complete general-purpose game engine, not something like Minetest
16:59 erle oh they changed it in 1.0
17:00 erle if you ask inkscape before 1.0 to write to foo.png.tmp it will write to foo.png. inkscape 1.0 and later changes the extension to png every time. so it writes to foo.png.png
17:00 erle i do it like that to get atomic updates
17:00 erle 1. write file
17:00 erle 2. if correct. move it to where it should be
17:00 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Yeah, inkscape has changed their command line params and broken some of my scripts, a number of which I still haven't fixed yet :-|
17:00 MTDiscord <luatic> A guy made a website as a SVG
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17:17 erle luatic i have made interactive SVG animations by hand using emacs http;//dating.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/
17:17 erle (it is my online dating profile)
17:19 erle especially if you move all down on that page hehe
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17:33 ROllerozxa oh my, that github logo parody xD
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17:41 runs hi
17:41 debiankaios hi
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18:04 MTDiscord <Warr1024> "my personal pronoun is ey" ... like the Fonz, I guess.
18:07 Oblomov “yo/yim”
19:12 erle ROllerozxa hover over it ;)
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19:15 erle ROllerozxa, also click on the trump twitter logo to see a captcha ;)
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19:18 ROllerozxa heh yes that was what I meant, the animation when you hover on it lol
19:19 MTDiscord <GoodClover> wow that is a wonderful website
19:20 ROllerozxa also I'm glad archive.org has extremely slow loading times, at first I didn't read the pop-up thing that comes up when you click the... instagram logo and just accepted it :P
19:21 MTDiscord <GoodClover> ack no, always read pop-ups!
19:22 MTDiscord <GoodClover> also archive.org isn't that slow?
19:22 MTDiscord <GoodClover> loads in like 2s for me
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21:40 runs hi
21:41 runs agin here
21:41 runs hihihi
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21:47 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> hello runs
21:48 runs hi
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21:58 erle ROllerozxa hover your mouse in the area beneath the PGP key window and see reptiles :3
21:58 erle ROllerozxa lol you fell for the goatsagram hahaha
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